quote:

---

The whole time she's been doing it, she's been hiding it from me, because she doesn't feel like she's doing anything wrong and didn't want to argue with me about it.

---

quote:

---

I don't think she has actually cheated yet, but I am afraid that if she continues doing it that she might.

---

You're almost certainly right. It's not just a matter of browsing porn; she's actually interacting with people in a deliberately sexual way, and it's almost inevitable that she'll escalate the nature of that "interaction" over time.

I think there are two paths open to you: you can explain to her that you're not comfortable with sexual sharing, and perhaps offer to engage in the chat and other things she finds so "exciting" with her (more than a few couples on Hatrack write erotic stories back and forth to each other, I know for a fact); or you can make it clear to her just how much you are comfortable with, and agree to let her have her "fun" within those boundaries.

It's my gut feeling that the latter option is doomed to fail, but I do know some extraordinary individuals who are able to maintain that kind of line. I know far more people who failed to do so, though, or wound up drawing the line in the wrong place and thus lost a partner to jealousy and resentment.
 

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Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
My favorite definition of cheating is "Anything you wouldn't want your significant other to see, hear, or read about." ie, if it seems sketchy and like it would hurt them, it's cheating. Also, while I know of people who have sucessful relationships which involve interaction of some kind with other people, these relationships are predicated on openness and trust. Everyone knew what they were getting into and had their eyes wide open. So - yeah.

I think bringing in an impartial third party would be wise. Maybe also try writing your ideas down? I encourage you NOT to give it to her until you've revised it a bunch and maybe even just tear it up once you've got everything clearly articulated, but that always helps me when I have to deal with tough issues.

So sorry.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
I know you asked for womenly advice but here is my 2 cents free (well you have to spend time reading it)

Can't say almost anything that hasnt already been said. I agree with the advice you have been given.

If she felt there is nothing wrong with it, but didnt tell you because she was afraid that, "You wouldnt understand," I would suggest offering to let her explain why she does it, and what attracts her about it.

Offer to sit and watch as she goes in the chat rooms. And promise to merely observe and do nothing. If she is not comfortable with that, it proves that there IS something wrong with it, and she is simply in denial about it.

I don't know if I would go into marriage counseling as that is something only you and her can judge, but CLEARLY there is a problem with communication as she did not feel it was neccessary to inform you of her new found recreation.

Try to be open minded, but make SURE she knows how your are feeling about this, be honest open and frank, BUT keep things civil and try to encourage her to explain things down to the last detail.

Best of luck, I hope you can clear this obstacle with your wife and come out of it all the stronger.
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 

quote:

---

Offer to sit and watch as she goes in the chat rooms. And promise to merely observe and do nothing. If she is not comfortable with that, it proves that there IS something wrong with it, and she is simply in denial about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by erosomniac:

quote:

---

Offer to sit and watch as she goes in the chat rooms. And promise to merely observe and do nothing. If she is not comfortable with that, it proves that there IS something wrong with it, and she is simply in denial about it.

---

Not necessarily; I'd imagine that going into a cybersex chat room is the sort of experience one feels uncomfortable with doing in front of ANYONE else, at least all the time. I'm sure it could be turned into an enjoyable experience for a couple, much the same way watching porn or any number of other normally privatized activities can be, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was extremely uncomfortable with him there, even if her intentions are the best.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlackBlade:

On the note of porn. I do not think its healthy to watch porn together because its a false sense of what sex is, or is meant to be. I do think watching adult themed sex ed videos COULD be healthy for a relationship, but I think porn introduces certain unhealthy principles into the bed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MightyCow:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlackBlade:

On the note of porn. I do not think its healthy to watch porn together because its a false sense of what sex is, or is meant to be. I do think watching adult themed sex ed videos COULD be healthy for a relationship, but I think porn introduces certain unhealthy principles into the bed.

---

Are you implying that I shouldn't expect my girlfriend to dress like a naughty nurse every day?

---

quote:

---

You don't HAVE to prove your loyalty by say going to the restroom while your spouse looks on, but that shouldnt be IMPOSSIBLE, or even REPULSIVE. You live together, so LIVE together.

---

I am fairly certain I would be unable to pee with anyone, including my spouse, in the room. Unless I'd been drinking gallons and holding it for three days. I don't think this says anything about my commitment or my marriage, merely about my bladder. And I don't think LIVING together means I shouldn't shut the restroom door when I need to go.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
As everyone else has already said, I think you need to talk with her. It might be a good idea to use very subjective, personal statements. "I feel hurt that I'm not a part of this aspect of your life" will go over much better than "You're hiding this from me." From what you've said, it sounds like she's in denial and on the defensive. She will quite likely try to turn any talk about this into an argument. I would suggest that you try very, very hard to not let her. With each difficult conversation you have about this topic, I suggest you pick a main idea that you want to get across and discuss. Try to not let yourself be sidetracked in to an argument about something irrelevant.

All of this probably goes without saying, but I find that when I'm upset at somebody it usually does me good to hear it. I wish you luck and I'm sorry that you're going through this.
 

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Posted by Princesska (Member # 8954) on :
 
I'm not asking you to answer this question aloud, but consider it: What's the sex like in your marriage? What about the romance in general?

To me, it sounds like your wife has to be bored with at least some aspect of it. Why else would she be seeking new stimulation from other sources?

What did you do with her when you first met that you aren't doing now? When was the last time you tried to woo her with roses, candles, and the stereo pumping sweet slow violin music?

I'm reading what your wife is doing as a cry for attention. Not watch-over-my-shoulder attention, but flirt-with-me attention.

If she's being secretive about it, maybe it's because she feels guilty about the fact that her beloved husband isn't completely satisfying her emotional and physical needs at the moment. So, without accusing her or reiterating your own pain, ask her what she wants!

Of course, asking that question so neutrally might be difficult. You're angry and she's defensive. But I think that if you can momentarily put aside your anger, she'll put aside her defense. After all, neither of you want these negative emotions, right?

Perhaps what you want and what she wants really aren't such different things.

...in my humble opinion.

[ September 12, 2006, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: Princesska ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I do NOT think that this implies there is anything wrong with you. That's a common misconception, but it doesn't mean that. There is nothing wrong with you.

I do think that the relationship got weird somewhere, and probably without you knowing it. It seems like a lot of the time women are unhappy their signifigant others have no idea. It happens the other way as well, but I think it's telling that the vast majority of divorces are filed for by women. No matter what else is going on, there are definitely communication issues between y'all now. I highly reccomend counseling.

If she won't go, go by yourself. This is traumatic.

The following applies if you're LDS, which I can't remember exactly but that seems right: if you talk to your bishop, you can use LDS Family Services. People have mixed experiences I know, but I think that happens with any counselor. I went to LDS Family Services seven years after my mother died, and it was amazing how much better everything was in just a few months. It was so much better that I stopped after a few months. I'm still kicking myself for waiting so long.
 

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Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
 
If there's one thing I hate, it's when one partner is dissatisfied (in whatever way), doesn't communicate this to the other partner or try to fix things, and then cheats or wants to end the relationship. That is utterly wrong. And to then act justified because of the dissatisfaction which they didn't make clear? Despicable.

Absolutely you (generic you) have a duty in marriage to sexually satisfy your spouse. If you aren't doing that you need to be. But you can't fix what you don't know is broken! If your spouse doesn't *tell* you how they feel, and instead distances themselves, cheats or wants out, that is *their* fault and it overshadows the initial fault of the other person mightily.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
We're going to do the counseling thing. The problem for us right now is how to act around each other until we can get help. I know she continues to do it. I think it's even escalating and might come to face to face meetings and *gulp* worse. In the interests of not yelling at each other, we've agreed (ok, she insisted, I reluctantly agreed) not to talk about it until we can get help, but I still live there.

To respond to some of the previous posts:

I've addressed pretty much every issue discussed so far, and the only thing she'll admit to is needing "something" that she can't define, but that I can't give her, willingly or not. In other words, she can't or won't answer the question. I've suggested many avenues that we could explore to spice things up or what have you, but she doesn't appear interested in any of them.

My greatest fear is that she's deliberately sabotaging the relationship because she doesn't love me anymore, but she either won't admit it, or I'm imagining it.

No matter which way you look at it, it's horrible.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It is. This is awful. I'm sorry.

This is NOT your fault. It isn't. It's easy to blame oneself when something like this happens, but it really isn't your fault. I'm proud of you for getting help, and I wish the best for everything between the two of you.

She's clearly going through something, and what happens next is very much up to her. I think that's one of the scariest things about relationships - that we put our lives in other people's hands. Since it sounds like it's continuing and may even escalate, I hope the counseling starts soon.

In my completely unsolicited opinion, I don't think you should keep silent while it continues. For that to be fair, she'd have to suspend all activity. I think she wants to do it without being reminded of how much it hurts you. You shouldn't have to agree to that - she is hurting you. It isn't cruel to point it out. Don't yell, but since it bothers you, I wouldn't suffer in silence. I don't think that's a positive step.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Seems only fair that along with agreeing not to talk about it, that she agrees not to do it either, until you go to counseling.

This agreement doesn't sound great, but as long as you have a real, defined, actual appointment with a marriage counselor in the next 2 weeks, it'll do.

By all rights, this activity of hers and any relationship should stop NOW, or at least pause until you both decide where your relationship is going. It's not too much to ask.

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It is NOT something that you have to accept or be OK with.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
How soon are you guys going to be seeing a therapist, Jason?
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
We're trying to make an appt for as soon as possible, but I haven't been able to get them to call me back yet. Hopefully soon.

Katharina - I'm doing exactly that, which is making her feel guilty, which is causing her to fight and yell, so it obviously doesn't matter to her.

Katarain - I agree with you 100 percent. She doesn't.

The hardest part of all this is that 3 weeks ago, I would have staked my life on the fact that she would never do anything like this. It's almost like I don't even recognize the woman I married any more. I'm having the hardest time rectifying her complete and utter lack of concern for how I feel with the image I still hold of the woman I fell in love with.
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
What an unpleasant thing to go through. I'm glad you guys have agreed to go to counseling and I hope that it will help. I hope you have an appointment in the near future. I agree that it is unreasonable for you to not be able to talk about it but at the same time for her to continue.

I know how shocking it can be to learn things about your spouse you never would have imagined. From my own marriage experience, while it seems obvious to you and many of us, she honestly may not understand how hurtful her behavior is to you and how damaging it could be to your marriage. I know that when we were struggling, things really clicked into place for my husband when one of his long time (female) friends cried to him about some of her soon-to-be husband's behaviors and how they made her feel. He was suddenly able to better understand how hurt I was when he could see it happening to someone else. I hope that counseling can do this for the two of you and help you to better understand each other.

[ September 12, 2006, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

---

It's almost like I don't even recognize the woman I married any more.

---

My good friend who got divorced kept saying things like that. The very idea makes my skin crawl.
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 

 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
In reading your updates, Jason, I cannot begin to express how sorry I am. I really, really hope counseling helps you figure out what's going on. For me, at least, the not knowing would be at least as worrisome as her actions.

I never do this, but:

(((jason)))
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

---

It's almost like I don't even recognize the woman I married any more.

---

My good friend who got divorced kept saying things like that. The very idea makes my skin crawl.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MightyCow:
Counseling is really the way to go, at this point, you obviously need an outside view on things. The hardest part about counseling is that it only works if both people want it to work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Celaeno:
If I found out that my husband (or even boyfriend) read my text messages and hired a private investigator, our relationship would be effectively over. It wouldn't matter how he justified it.

Reading the text messages alone would almost be enough to do it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
Thanks again for all your support, everyone.

Update:

I have packed some clothes and stuff, and left. She continued to lie to me about what she was doing, and with a little snooping, I found out she was planning to meet some guy and most likely consummate their relationship. I couldn't deal with sticking around for that, so I left.

My plan is to ask her to go get some help (as I think a big part of her inability to deal with me calmly and rationally is a direct result of some medicinal changes in the last few weeks - which makes a lot of sense) and that I will join her for couples therapy when the time comes. Until then, I am out of the house. She keeps trying to tell me to come home, but I can't believe anything she says right now. Especially after seeing the conversation she had, and what they were talking about.

Hopefully she'll get help and then we can go to therapy and figure out how much of this was real and how much was medical. I pray it's all medical, but I'm scared that it isn't. Thanks again.

---

My deepest sympathies I hope you leaving shows your wife just how much she stands to lose by her selfish attitude. I sincerely hope you can both rediscover your love for each other and that your wife can realize just how valuable you are.

I cannot abide cheating. I honestly do not know how anybody feels safe leaving a relationship for somebody who encouraged them to leave that relationship. For me its this simple:

"If they are comfortable with me cheating on my spouse with them, what is stopping them from one day cheating on ME?"
 

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Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
 
If she's on medication, can you call up her doctor? He might not be able to tell you much, but you can at least say what's going on with her.
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
I hope this time away will give you both time to clarify your feelings and be able to approach the situation together (with the help of a counselor) better. If you ever need someone to talk to who knows something of what you're going through, feel free to email me.

I'm torn about the issue of "checking up" on your spouse. I know for me, once I had lost my trust of my spouse, he had to earn it again. I was lucky that while he had hidden things from me, he had never lied to me and I had confidence that regardless of how unpleasant, he would continue to be honest with me when I asked him questions (and I asked LOTS of questions). To confirm to myself that he was being honest, I had to know what questions to ask, and I had to know what the answers should be. He and I both agreed that trust was not a switch to be flicked back and forth, and to regain trust meant meant, in our case, that he gave up some of his freedoms. At first things were pretty drastic but they were things that we both talked about and agreed upon. Some of the most drastic were things he suggested. As time continued, I slowly returned the control he had relinquished to me. The "checking up" became less and less frequent, until we were able to go back to pretty much how things were before (though we are now both more sensitive to what could become a problem and are more open with each other). If we had not been able to work things out, I know our marriage would have been in serious jeopardy. I'm glad that we were able to do so and it is even more amazing to me that we were able to do it on our own. We certainly considered the option of counseling, but opted to first try working things out ourselves and if we had difficulty, to then seek counseling.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
More updates:

We talked about spending the weekend together (we were supposed to go out of town for an anniversary present) and I told her what I would require from her in order to do that (dr's appt and therapy appt next week, complete honesty about everything that's she's done and plans to do, no IM, phone calls or txt messages with those people) and she said she can do that, so we're going to give it a shot. Hopefully we can at least begin the healing process and therapy can do the rest.

Just wanted to thank everyone for all their thoughts and kind words. It's meant a lot to me.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm so glad. That sounds like a great plan. I wish you the best.
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
I'm so glad you were able to come to agree to some terms and begin to work on the issues. I hope the process will go well for you guys and that you'll be able to improve your communication and your relationship.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I suspect that your leaving the house and sticking up for youself as to what you need from her will be instrumental in the positive resolution of all of this, Jason. I'm really glad that you're handling this so well.
 

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Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
 
My instinct says that her entering into this weekend with you is a good sign. I'm glad.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Update:

The weekend went ok, but when we got home we started fighting again. It's my fault; I can't let any of it go. We're meeting with the therapist tomorrow night, but I guess I just don't know how I'm going to be able to trust her again. She just wants to forget that it ever happened, and moreover, wants to continue doing it. I don't appear to be able to do that (yet, anyway). I guess it will work itself out in the end though. I'm not going to spend my life with a wife who lies to me.

Poo.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Don't blame yourself - don't blame yourself. I'm glad you're going to counseling. I think you might benefit some by going by yourself as well. If she wants to keep doing it, then letting it go when it bothers you would be the wrong thing to do. This isn't your fault. It isn't fair to ask you to forget it ever happened if it keeps happening.

I'm sorry. This is legitimately bad.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Wait for your therapist's advice, hopefully you have selected a good one. One who can speak in a manner that helps BOTH of you with your specific needs.

What specifically does your wife want you to forget? That she slipped up that ONE time, but she won't ever slip up again?
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
She wants me to forget that the entire time we've been going through this, she's been lying to me. She says that she keeps lying because she doesn't want to fight anymore.

That almost hurts more than anything else, really.
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 

quote:

---

BlackBlade wrote:
What specifically does your wife want you to forget? That she slipped up that ONE time, but she won't ever slip up again?

---

quote:

---

jason wrote:
She just wants to forget that it ever happened, and moreover, wants to continue doing it.

---

quote:

---

It's my fault

---

Nuh-uh.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
I don't know that that's true, actually.

The fight last night was about someone she's continued to talk to. She says they're just friends, but the relationship began with a heavy sexual bent, and although I have no idea if that's continued up to phone calls and emails, I just can't believe her because she lied about the guy from the beginning (saying he was from work, etc).

I have rational reasons for how I feel, what I don't have is the ability to set those feelings aside and be patient while we go through the therapy process - does anyone have advice on how to do that?
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
A good therapist will be able to help you be patient while you work through the process. Setting your feelings aside is not necessarily the goal. At least not long term. You may need to hold them in reserve for awhile if you have other issues (communication, for instance) to work on first.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
I don't know that that's true, actually.

The fight last night was about someone she's continued to talk to. She says they're just friends, but the relationship began with a heavy sexual bent, and although I have no idea if that's continued up to phone calls and emails, I just can't believe her because she lied about the guy from the beginning (saying he was from work, etc).

I have rational reasons for how I feel, what I don't have is the ability to set those feelings aside and be patient while we go through the therapy process - does anyone have advice on how to do that?

---

I honestly think there is a larger problem at work here (I know thats sort of obvious and a cliche statement). I would not presume to dabble deeper into your relationship, honestly just hold on until the therapist can give you guidance. The wife lying because she does not want to fight clearly shows there has been a problem that has gone unaddressed for some time.

The fact the cover has been blown and she still feel strongly about continuing her activities shows that she is beyond feeling guilty about what she does and is in the defensive stage. But don't think that that means she is beyond feeling, she just needs somebody to help her slow the tempo of things down and look at things piece by piece.

From what I can tell I honestly think the wife you love is still in there, she is not beyond saving, just be prepared to go through hell to find her again. May God bless you with the attributes required to heal your relationship

I wish you the very best!
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
I'm so glad to hear that you guys have an appointment tomorrow night.

I know how frustrating this time must be for you - waiting rather than doing. I hope you have a good therapist and that you will both be able to progess under their guidance.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I hope the therapy helps both of you figure out what you want, and how to accomplish that.

Don't forget that you have to be true to your own feelings too. She can't expect to keep having online romances and you be OK with that. You should not be expected to feel that it's something she should be able to do.

Making a mistake and asking forgiveness is one thing, expecting you to ignore this while it keeps going on is another thing completely. I know I wouldn't stand for it. I didn't.
 

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Posted by Gecko (Member # 8160) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
i think the barometer is secrecy; if you need to hide it, it's wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gecko:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
i think the barometer is secrecy; if you need to hide it, it's wrong.

---

So you tell your wife when you masturbate?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gecko:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
i think the barometer is secrecy; if you need to hide it, it's wrong.

---

So you tell your wife when you masturbate?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gecko:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
i think the barometer is secrecy; if you need to hide it, it's wrong.

---

So you tell your wife when you masturbate?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gecko:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
i think the barometer is secrecy; if you need to hide it, it's wrong.

---

So you tell your wife when you masturbate?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scorpio:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gecko:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
i think the barometer is secrecy; if you need to hide it, it's wrong.

---

So you tell your wife when you masturbate?

---

I believe it was our own OSC who said that to not give constant updates of when we do routine thins is not "keeping a secret".

"I don't tell you that I breathe, either." -Zeforah

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gecko:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
i think the barometer is secrecy; if you need to hide it, it's wrong.

---

So you tell your wife when you masturbate?

---

I believe it was our own OSC who said that to not give constant updates of when we do routine thins is not "keeping a secret".

"I don't tell you that I breathe, either." -Zeforah
 

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Posted by Scorpio (Member # 9502) on :
 
Hm, I seem to be having a posting issue with this site. I'm having trouble with the full reply form (hence the five identical posts above) and I can't edit/delete my posts. Could I get a forum leader to delete four of those?

My comment linking masturbation with daily routine was a joke, just in case nobody caught it.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Well, my worst fears have been realized - she has had sex with at least one other man. We have an appointment for therapy tomorrow, but she doesn't know that I have found proof of her adultery. I can't decide if I should just spend the night at a hotel tonight and know that she will probably cheat on me again in doing so, or if I should confront her and watch it get ugly, or if I should try to avoid her as much as possible (be dishonest).

What do you think?
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I have no advice for you, but I am so, so sorry.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
When did the infidelity occur?
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Last Wednesday or Thursday - I had left and was staying at a friends house, but we were talking every night.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Crap. So it was after you were aware that there was a problem, and supposedly when everything was out in the open. I'm sorry, Jason, that's rough. Does this change how you feel about trying to make the relationship work?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I'm so sorry.

Of your three possibilities, I don't have any advice. If you don't say anything, I don't think that's being dishonest. No matter what, I would definitely bring it up in therapy.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Noemon - I truly believe that her medication changes are driving the rapid escalation, even if it's not the cause of her unhappiness with our marriage. I have no idea if I will ever be able to trust her again. That's what therapy is for, I imagine.

Katharina - I think I agree with you about it not being dishonest, but I just don't know if I can hide it. I'm afraid of letting it out and then we have a very ugly situation.

I guess the last problem is that if I don't stick around tonight, I don't think she'll go to therapy tomorrow with me.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
It sounds to me like you'd still like to give therapy a chance. If that's the case, then yes, you probably do need to stay tonight.

I hate to be the one to bring this up, but it needs to be said. . . sex with people you meet on the internet is a very high-risk activity, as far as chances of disease go. No matter what else happens, if you've been intimate with her since the time you were staying at your friend's house, you need to be tested for STDs. Again, I'm sorry.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't know.

Does she have an appointment to do something about her medication?
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
I know. That's something else I don't know how to bring up - how do you tell your wife you don't even want to kiss her for fear of disease?
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Wow. So, you confronted her about it, left to get some space, and in one night, she ended up sleeping with someone while you were gone?
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
yep, that's what it seems like.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
Noemon - I truly believe that her medication changes are driving the rapid escalation, even if it's not the cause of her unhappiness with our marriage. I have no idea if I will ever be able to trust her again. That's what therapy is for, I imagine.

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quote:

---

I guess the last problem is that if I don't stick around tonight, I don't think she'll go to therapy tomorrow with me.

---

Right now, your primary goal is getting both of you to the therapy session. Given that you don't think she'll show if you don't go home tonight, the option of staying in a hotel is pretty much off the table. I would guess that confronting her tonight will also lessen the chances of her going, so I would refrain from doing that. Easier said than done, I know, but try to keep what you ultimately want strongly in mind.

I wish I had better advice than that to give.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Kissing is pretty low risk for STD transmission, but I would think that given the circumstances you wouldn't really need to give any explanation for avoiding any kind of physical intimacy with her.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Not wanting to kiss for that reason is probably excessive. I'd be more likely to not want to kiss someone due to the feelings of betrayal that worries about disease. But if she wants a level of intimacy you're not comfortable with at this time, I'd say something like "I'm sorry, I'm just so confused about everything that's going on, I'm not comfortable doing this until we get our relationship on firmer ground." If you can honestly add "I love you" on the end of that, it wouldn't hurt. And I'd assume it has the advantage of being true.

Then make sure, as kat said, you bring up your concerns at the therapist. She needs to hear all the ways this has affect your lives together. And you need to listen honestly to her feelings about what brought her to this point. Good luck.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
You know, all I can say is that it doesn't seem like she's very interested in keeping the marriage going. In fact, quite the opposite. In fact, it seems like she doesn't give a damn about your feelings.

In fact, were I in your shoes, there is no way in hell I would say with her.

Crap. I hate saying that to you, but it's the truth. How can it not be the truth after what you wrote?

I sincerely, sincerely, sincerely hope that you can work things out for you such that you are happy. If that means patching things up, good. If that means leaving, then that is good, too.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I mean, my God, it's one thing to have an affair when your spouse doesn't know, but when your spouse suspects very strongly and is trying to work things out with you and you sleep someone in your house. That's just...low. I mean, genuinely low.

Fellow Hatrackers, am I off base here? Could any of you stay with your spouse in similiar circumstances?

My heart goes out to you, Jason. Please do what's right for you.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
I don't know how to describe that Jason as anything but "Overwhelming."

Jason, don't look at this recent development as a sign of defeat. She was alone, probably feeling very emotionally unstable, and God knows what that "Fiend" said to her, but whatever it was he convinced her that he could make her feel better about all this.

Don't tell your wife you know, at least give her the opportunity to tell you in her own way, if she is given a good opportunity to come clean and does not, you might have to break it to her. But follow the advice of your therapist, don't let the session turn into "Who has the biggest pile of dirt to throw."

I am sure many of us have done something stupid, hated ourselves for doing it, and then agonized just a short time later when we made it even worse.

I use to have an addiction that I knew was destroying my life, I would be so angry at what it had done to me, at what it had stolen from me, I was so angry at it, I swore I'd give it up, only to collapse into depression as I indulged in it just hours sometimes minutes later.

Hang on Jason, if your marriage fails (perish the thought) make DAMN sure you have done everything you can, and that its entirely her fault. A marriage is worth saving if there is any chance of it being salvaged.

Some of my closest relationships came because they screwed up, I forgave them, and they genuinely recognized how valuable that 2nd chance was.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I can understand wanting to work things out, Storm. They've got an 8 year foundation for their relationship. That's enough for people of a certain temperament to weather something like this, especially if a change in medication is a contributing factor, and especially if the couple are members of a tradition that strongly discourages divorce.

I went back and read your earlier posts, Jason, to see if you'd ever said whether or not your were from such a culture (whether Mormon or Catholic or whathaveyou), and whether or not you had kids. I didn't see any information on either one, though I could have missed the relevant post.
 

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Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I mean, my God, it's one thing to have an affair when your spouse doesn't know, but when your spouse suspects very strongly and is trying to work things out with you and you sleep someone in your house. That's just...low. I mean, genuinely low.

Fellow Hatrackers, am I off base here? Could any of you stay with your spouse in similiar circumstances?

My heart goes out to you, Jason. Please do what's right for you.

---

At one point in my life, I would have agreed, Storm. And it would still take superhuman strength to get past something like this in a partner.

However, I read about the medication stuff which implies mental illness (and forgive me if I'm off-base there) and I think about the past few years with my mentally ill teenager, seeing her "true" self when she is adequately medicated and a cruel stranger when she's not, and it seems like maybe Jason is trying to figure out whether this behavior is that of his true wife... I feel for you, Jason. I hope you can get to the bottom of things, the truth of things, and figure out what you have to do for yourself and for your marriage.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
I'm not religious in any way, but I'm a very committed person. My own parents split when I was young, and my mother went through a couple of additional husbands before landing a keeper. My life's goal is to not go through that. And look where it got me.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I think you need to figure out what it is you want, what is attainable, what is healthy for you, and go from there. Be strong, man.
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
Oh dear.

It may be sneaky, but it might be good to wait to confront her about it until your session tonight (so she's already there, you have a third party to help referee if things get out of hand, and you don't have to wait forever letting it eat you up).
 

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Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
 
I am so so sorry. I went through exactly the same thing, though with my wife, it was a co-worker. She first simply confessed dissatisfaction with our marriage. I struggled to try to make things better and salvage it. But she was already emotionally gone. More than that, she had developed feelings for a coworker that eventually became infidelity. She became vindictive and cruel. Truly, it was as if another being inhabited her body.

It was later that I learned that sometimes when people know they are going to hurt or are already hurting you, they try to provoke you into getting angry at them, so they can feel better about it. Retaliation to mask the guilt.

I wish I could say something to help, some piece of advice on how to make it work. In the end, though, I learned that no matter how hard you try, you cannot make someone do something else. You cannot make it work if she doesn't want to. Period. Two people must work or it over.

And if she continues to 'see' other people then, even though she may think she hasn't made a choice or is still unsure, the fact is, that IS the choice. I got a bunch of 'I need some time to think,' which translated into her going away with him for a weekend. That's not thinking about 'us'. I know that in her case, there were psychological issues and I know that I wasn't all that I should have been. [*Edit: I consider our failure as much my fault as hers, though she's the one who finally ended it.] In the end, that enabled me to forgive and for us to be amicable.

All I can say is that you are stronger than you think. You may feel that this is so overwhelming and you simply cannot handle this or go through it. But you can and will, whatever 'it' is. Day by day, you get through it. And on the other side, whether wracked with pain at a divorce yet with hope of a new life ahead or having rebuilt a marriage on a solid footing, you will have made it through and know better the kind of person you are and are capable of being.

In the end, that's all I can say. Except that I am sorry.

[ September 19, 2006, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: IanO ]
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Well said, Ian. I didn't know that you'd been through this too.
 

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Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Oh, Jason, how miserable! *HUG*

I think . . . I think, from your posts, that you are very hurt by all of this and care very much about your wife and would like for everything to somehow work out. So, if that is an accurate interpretation, I encourage you to do whatever you can without making yourself crazy to get her into therapy.

Also, I think that by the far the thing you are most upset by is the breach of trust aspect, which in my opinion is exactly what you should be bothered by. Infidelity is huge, and what makes it huge is not just the aspect of sleeping with another person, but the fact that to do it people are generally sneaking around behind their significant other's back, lying, actively choosing to do things they KNOW would hurt someone they have said they are committed to, etc.

I mean, it would be very painful if a man I was dating or my husband came up to me one day and said: "Look, I made a promise to you that I would not sleep with anyone else, but I'm starting to think that even though I meant it when I said that, it's not a promise I can keep. I am so sorry for putting you through this, but I wanted to discuss it with you openly and give you the chance to walk out on me or throw things at my head or whatever BEFORE I did anything. I love you."

But if he just went ahead and did it . . . and got caught . . . and kept doing it . . . what IS that??? A Jerry Springer episode?

Jason, have you had the chance to further explore the impact that medication and/or mental illness is having on all of this? I know I mentioned it before, but I have personally witnessed people I love become thoroughly dreadful people while ill or on medication, and later return to themselves. I don't want to hold out false hope, but I do think it's something worth investigating.

Just close your eyes and figure out what you need to do to be happy with yourself and know that you did your best, and do that. And no more. *HUG*
 

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Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
 
April 04. Lasted a number of months, though I had moved out by May. The most painful experience of my life. We have a son and unfortunately, as amicable as our divorce became, it still has caused him a huge amount of pain. And there's nothing I can do about it.

My heart goes out to all those hurt by infidelity and frivolous divorce. It's so very unfair.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
Man, that sucks. She sure isn't putting any effort into making this work, or taking your feelings into account. I went through something similar, and it was a bad, bad time.

Remember that no matter how bad it seems, you will make it through, and in time, things will get better, one way or another. In the mean time, do what is right for you.

You don't deserve to be hurt or cheated on. If she's really committed to making this work, she has to stop, completely. If she won't stop, then I think she's giving you a very clear message about how much the marriage means to her.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MightyCow:
You don't deserve to be hurt or cheated on. If she's really committed to making this work, she has to stop, completely. If she won't stop, then I think she's giving you a very clear message about how much the marriage means to her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
I'm not religious in any way, but I'm a very committed person. My own parents split when I was young, and my mother went through a couple of additional husbands before landing a keeper. My life's goal is to not go through that. And look where it got me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scholar:
when I said I didn't want to talk about divorce, she went into this whole thing about how if our marriage wasn't strong enough to consider divorce then it couldn't be that strong and therefore why worth staying.

---

Wow! "Strong enough to consider divorce" what kind of idiotic psycho babble is that.
 

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Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
jasonepowell - Man. Glad to see that you're taking care of you throughout all this. I can only imagine that it's like you woke up in someone else's life or something along those lines... I hope that however things play out you find happiness and don't blame yourself. We can influence others but we certainly can't control everything they do. She made a conscious decision on her own to do what she did.

On a different note, if medicine/medical 'stuff' impeeded her judgement or altered her self in anyway, it might be really hard for her once she gets back to her baseline and realizes what she's done. I'm NOT trying to justify anything.

Very tough (for lack of a better word) situation. Keep on keeping on...
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I know that medication has been mentioned several times, but I don't see any mention of what it is/what it is for. Maybe I'm just missing it; I'm a little spacey today. But I might be able to give you some more specific advice, if you've mentioned it already, if someone could point it out to me.

Anyways, when it comes to emotional issues, I think a big problem is that...you kind of have to be able to separate the whole emotional issue/unhappiness with life thing from the relationship. Y'know? It's like...I have a boyfriend, but I'm still lonely, since I've had to ditch a whole bunch of friends recently. Does that make any sense?

-pH
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I don't know what to say, nor do I really feel qualified to offer advice in the situation. I just hate that you're going through it, jason.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, everyone. We'll get through it one way or the other, but it certainly isn't easy.

pH - her doctor increased her anti-depression medication by a good amount and gave her a daily dose of a panic attack reliever. She seemed to respond very well to it initially, but apparently it somehow caused her to decide to ruin her life as well. I've read a bunch of stuff, and everything I can find says that what she's on decreases sex drive, not increases to an extreme, but I suppose everyone's brain is different.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
So how did it go last night? Did you stay at the house?

Good luck with the therapy appt. today.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Not to be a jerk, but it may very well have nothing to do with the meds.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Also, good luck wishes.
 

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Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
 
Storm, you are right. A therapist once told me: "sometimes a kid acts up because they are... a kid." I guess I would just want to make so sure that it wasn't a physical cause. Not because it would change what had happened, but because it gives me a smidge more empathy or something and would allow me to give it a little bit of distance so that I could work through my reactions.

Whatever the cause, this is an enormously complicated mess, you know?

And yes, good luck today.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Jason,

I don't want any stress to your already very unhappy situation. I know it can be very cathartic and helpful to talk about the situation here.

I think, though, it would be better not to do it under your real name (if that is your real name). This is a public place, and I think it would be prudent to protect your and your spouse's privacy a little bit. I think posting is fine; advice and especially support can be invaluable, but I think there is reason to suppose you might regret having everything tracable back to you. Just thinking. Maybe register a pen name for this occasion?

I hope things are going well today. I wish the best for you.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
noemon - I left last night - I knew that if I stayed it would be very bad, and if I left, at least there wasn't any danger of getting hurt or things being broken.

katharina - You are probably right. It's a bit late now though, unfortunately. :-(
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It's up to you.

Is the counseling still happening today?
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Yes, assuming she bothers to show up. Hopefully she will.
 

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Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 
Jason,

I have been going through some tough times with my wife (no infidelity, though--though I was the risk there, not her).

There are a number of support groups on-line, such as www.divorcesupport.com. You might want to take a look there.

All the responses here have been compassionate and reasonable, so I'm not saying try the other site because of "quality" issues! But the people there are there for pretty much one reason only--divorce. Some are divorced, some have done the divorcing, and some are or have been considering divorce.

You need to get a lawyer, right now. You need to establish your rights, including assets. I will brutally predict that you cannot recover anything of value from your marriage, and the "medical" issue is not in any way a valid excuse for her behavior. I assume you have no children, and the marriage is (itself) in its infancy. Get a lawyer to protect yourself and to initiate divorce proceedings. You cannot fix this.

Hugs, dude. She's made your life suck. It's up to you to save yourself.

--Steve
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
i wouldn't call eight years, with or without children, a marriage "in its infancy"
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
Yes, assuming she bothers to show up. Hopefully she will.

---

Let us know how it works out for you, we are here for you at least I think more than just me!
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jasonepowell:
Thanks for the kind words and thoughts, everyone. We'll get through it one way or the other, but it certainly isn't easy.

pH - her doctor increased her anti-depression medication by a good amount and gave her a daily dose of a panic attack reliever. She seemed to respond very well to it initially, but apparently it somehow caused her to decide to ruin her life as well. I've read a bunch of stuff, and everything I can find says that what she's on decreases sex drive, not increases to an extreme, but I suppose everyone's brain is different.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Boothby171:
There ain't a mental disease out there--certainly not one worth staying married to--that would lead a person to such an act.

---

quote:

---

And, of course, injuries to the temporal lobe can cause someone’s personality to change.

“In what way?”

On Saturday morning neurosurgery rounds, I once saw a man with a head injury. The nurses had posted a handwritten sign on the door to his room: “Do not give this patient matches!” He had been mischievously lighting matches and throwing them around the room. Nothing lethargic about this guy. He didn’t want to be in the hospital. He was bright-eyed, aggressive with the docs, teasing the nurses, and generally acting like a sailor in port, looking for a good time. If he could have walked, it would have been with a swagger — however, his leg was injured also.

The next Saturday, there was another temporal lobe contusion patient. This man was meek, most hesitant in his dealings with the staff, usually averting his gaze when talking with someone — totally different from last week’s patient. I didn’t realize, until we were talking about him afterward in the hallway, that this was the very same patient I’d seen the previous week.

“But which was his real personality?”

The second one. His family had been rather perplexed at the fun-loving sailor. Which warned the neurosurgeons that the temporal lobe’s limbic circuits were probably getting injured by brain swelling. And that they needed to do something quickly to shrink the brain a little. That usually means giving diuretics and the like, to reduce the amount of water in the uninjured regions of the brain. You can sometimes “buy time” that way.

“Good thing he didn’t walk out of the hospital. God knows what he would have gotten into.”

Into a coma, most likely.

---

It is really amazing that so often the mind can function positively in interactions throughout the day. So many things can go so unpredictably off course. We all seem to be in a rather intricate and delicate dance of homeostasis, and the speed and vigor of that constant unseen footwork is too challenging (or frightening) for most of us to ponder at any great length.

As another aside, I imagine that one would "stay married" to the person, not the mental disease. However, this may or may not be relevant to jep's case.

Regardless, I wish him and you well.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boothby171:
Or, Jason, you could just throw away your life and stay in the relationship.

---

That's unnecessarily harsh.

-pH
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I would agree that it is harsh, but I would also agree that if she is unwilling to change her behavior, and she sees nothing wrong with cheating on her husband, then it would be a waste to stay in such a relationship and call it marriage.

Boothby171 has obviously been through some similar situations, as have I. I can tell you honestly that once I found out that my now-ex had no desire to remain married, and in fact didn't really care about me any more, it was a horrible emotional blow.

At the same time, I soon realized that there was no point in continuing to go through the motions. She had already decided, long before in fact, that she didn't want to be married any more. She just didn't bother to tell me. Why would she? She was being supported emotionally and financially, she got to have Internet romances, and I was none the wiser. I was the only one who stood to gain anything by moving on with my life, instead of suffering through it.

Maybe Jason is lucky, and he's caught things in time. Maybe his wife is responding poorly to her medication, and made a single mistake. Maybe she loves him with all her heart, and is willing to seek help, change her medication, and do what it takes go make things right.

Maybe Jason can forgive her and work on trusting her again, and they can get their previous, loving, honest marriage back. I really hope so, because the alternative is one of the most painful things you can go through.

If not though, Jason needs, NEEDS to take care of himself, because his wife has already shown a serious disregard for his feelings. If she has, in fact, given up on the marriage, she may very well be planning to move in with some other man and take who knows what with her.

It's a really bad situation, and it can get better, or it can get much worse. I hope that Jason comes out of it in the best way possible. If the best way possible is patching things up, that's truly awesome. If his wife isn't interested in that way, then the best way possible for him is to get a lawyer, make sure he doesn't get taken for a ride, and get as much support as possible for the tough road ahead.
 

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Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
 
I keep thinking of the "till death to us part," vow and wondering how some people can advise him to break that oath permanently when we do not know her mental state and personal demons. I'm so glad they are seeing a therapist.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Ok, so two things happened yesterday - she went to her physician to find out how much the medication was affecting her, and we went to the therapist.

The physician says that there's no way the medication could be the cause of any of this, as it will only now be taking affect. I guess that gets rid of the last excuse I was making for her actions.

At the therapist, she was actually honest, but entirely uninterested in committing to anything. She wanted a "trial separation" while she "finds herself"... I am supposed to go find a place to live for now. She would not commit to not having sex with anyone, she would not commit to being safe, she wouldn't commit to anything.

The therapist seems to be taking the pragmatic view, encouraging me to "find myself" as well and figure out how to be a stronger person. Presumably because he recognizes the futility of any thought of reconciliation when she fully intends to keep doing what she's doing.

I was so mad when I left, because it's just so unfair to me - I have to leave, find a place to live, keep waiting in limbo while she engages in dangerous and risky behavior (not to mention extremely hurtful), and figure out a way to both get "stronger" without her as well as not close the door on our marriage. She has to do.... nothing. At all. I figured the therapist would want some kind of committment from both of us, and I don't understand why that didn't happen.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think the therapist can't get a committment from someone who clearly doesn't want to make one.

Aw jason, this blows. I'm so sorry. Call a lawyer today, get a financial advisor, protect your assets, and take your stuff and move out. There are no kids and you're both adults, so she should be able to take care of herself.

I'm so sorry.
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 

 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
What kat said. I'm sorry you're going through this.
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 

quote:

---

I have to leave, find a place to live, keep waiting in limbo while she engages in dangerous and risky behavior (not to mention extremely hurtful), and figure out a way to both get "stronger" without her as well as not close the door on our marriage.

---

I assume you do realise you don't HAVE to do anything on this list. If your wife refuses to make any sort of committment to you she can't reasonably demand any specifics from you. And neither can the therapist, of course. It becomes a question of what you want to do. So what DO you want to do?

Btw, I realise there might be all sorts of reason for why it would be charitable (and easier) for you to move out of the house and she to remain. But if you wish her to come back to you eventually, it might be an idea to ask her to move in with her new friend and stay in the house yourself. Manipulative as that might be.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Well, at least now you know and have some resolution.

Good luck, Jason.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Good point - you don't have to leave. She's the one who has left the committment of the marriage - she should move out.

Man, yeah. I would get a lawyer immediately. Even for a separation, this will be necessary.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:

Aw jason, this blows. I'm so sorry. Call a lawyer today, get a financial advisor, protect your assets, and take your stuff and move out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by katharina:
I'm so sorry.

---

This, too.
 

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Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
 
I'm sorry, man.

That's all I can say. I'm sorry.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Why not have her move out? I'm just sayin'. (And, apparently, too slowly, having failed to refresh before getting around to typing.)

Seriously, there's absolutely no reason for you to inconvenience yourself, here. And I think forcing her to take actual steps -- even if they're actual steps away from you -- might help her realize that she IS in fact making choices instead of blowing in the wind.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Echoing the sentiments of everyone else: this really sucks and I'm sorry you have to go through it. Good luck, and remember -- you've done nothing wrong here.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this, Jason. I, too, would advise getting a lawyer of your own on retainer.

I would also advise speaking to a therapist on your own, if you can afford it and there is one available to you. Otherwise, you might try sitting down somewhere quiet and thinking about the very best outcome left open to you, and working toward that. It might mean staying there and making her leave (certainly sensible, in my book), but it might mean getting as far away from her as possible (another sensible option, as duking it out over the digs may not be helpful to your state of mind -- I don't know, as I don't know you or enough about the situation).

A lawyer can help make sure that your decisions on whether or not to move out do not affect your legal standing with regards to property and marital assests.

Good luck.
 

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Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
 
Well, the problem here is that she has no place to stay here - her family lives a few hours away and I don't think she has friends that she would be able to move in with. We're both on the lease agreement for the condo we live in, so I can't force her to leave.

The thing that's difficult is that she's basically recieved absolution from the therapist that she's ok to do what she wants. And she wants me to continue to support her lifestyle because she doesn't want to have to change. She wants everything the same; cushy life, nice place, nice things... and oh yeah, random men from the internet coming over without the inconvenience of me being there.

The therapist didn't do a thing to show her that her actions have consequences at all. I understand that in the inital visit he's not going to be passing judgement or anything, but I wish he had actually held her to some kind of committment - no matter how small.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
She has a place to stay as much as you have a place to stay. This is her decision, so yes, I think she should be the one to move out. The therapist is not the end-all be-all of this.

You NEED to get a lawyer TODAY for all of the reasons everyone else has said. Getting a lawyer doesn't mean you have to get a divorce, but you should certainly have one to arrange a legal separation. You have to protect yourself. I'm no lawyer, but I've always thought that if someone cheats they are not legally entitled to alimony and support. Your lawyer could tell you whether that is true and what your rights are. You can find out whether you are legally obligated to pay for her residence plus your own.

Please get a lawyer. Right now.
 

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Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
 
I really don't understand this - she's the one who's leaving the marriage, but you're the one who has to leave home?

If she wants things to stay the same, if she wants to act married by living in your home and having you pay for things, then she needs to behave like she's married. If she wants to leave the marriage, then she needs to leave. If she wants to act not-married, then she ought to find out what it would be like to not be married. On her own.

And in my totally biased opinion, I'd find another therapist. One whose values about marriage and fidelity are compatible with yours.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Jason, you don't have to move out. I think you should stop talking to us and start talking to a lawyer. Not that we don't want you to continue to seek support here - I hope you do but because right now an attorney is in the best position to help you.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jasonepowell:
And she wants me to continue to support her lifestyle because she doesn't want to have to change. She wants everything the same; cushy life, nice place, nice things... and oh yeah, random men from the internet coming over without the inconvenience of me being there.

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You don't have to help her keep those things for herself, though. I agree with everyone who's saying she should be the one moving out. If SHE wants a trial separation, SHE needs to separate.

-pH
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I realize this is kind of third hand therapist advice, so please take it as such and not as any type of qualified advice, but: when my mother trying to decide whether or not to leave a 24 year relationship with my father she struggled over the same type thing jason seems to - where would he go? How would he support himself? etc. My mom had been the primary source of support for the marriage and was the primary breadwinner. She probably stayed two years longer than she wanted to because she felt a sense of obligation to continue supporting him.

Well, finally a therapist told her that he was an adult and perfectly capable of taking care of himself and she needed to realize that. She did, she left, and two weeks later the house they had been living in was destroyed by a tornado - and my stepfather had not paid the insurance so it was uninsured. Now he had no place to live at all.

But, with my mother gone he had to take responsibility for himself and he has. He has a job that he's kept for several years (almost a record for him, he used to bounce from job to job all the time) and an apartment and vehicle that he maintains and pays the bills for himself. I think that he was unable to support himself only because my mother allowed him to be unable to support himself.

Your wife wants to have all the benefits of being married to you and none of the responsibility. You do NOT have to agree to that. She is the one asking for a separation, so tell her she must be the one to leave. it doesn't matter how many family she has nearby or what - that just doesn't matter. She wants the change in her life, let her take responsiblity for the change and do it herself. Her lack of family support in the area is not your problem. If she has no place to stay and needs to stay with family, then she can move away to where her family is.

Jason, I'm just terribly sorry. I hope you get some good sound legal advice and I echo CT's advice - I hope you find a therapist for yourself that is more in line with your own values.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I agree with everything in Belle's post. It's not her medication, and she's a grown up. If she wants to separate from you, she needs to do that herself. You don't have to accomodate her.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I'll just briefly log in with a fervent desire that Jason take good care of himself, whatever that may be.

I'm a little worried about a possible Pyrrhic victory over who stays and who goes. On the one hand, it might make the best sense to stay. On the other hand, if it were me in the situation as described, I'd be setting myself up for a major depression: unable to sleep well, toxic environment, always second-guessing myself and the other, absolutely miserable. I (and this is me, not Jason) would need to get somewhere warm and safe and loving, and I'd need to focus on long-term damage control for myself and my finances more than I'd need to prove a point.

But that's in part because I have a big fragile spot of vulnerability when it comes to sleep deprivation and extended non-resolved conflict. (I can work through a heckuva lot with a partner who is at least minimally trying to work with me, but the opposite I find appalling to deal with in my living space long term.)

Regardless, I can understand that staying and fighting for what one feels is right can be important, too. [Edited to add: and even possibly critical to one's sense of well-being] I'd just like to encourage Jason to make it as well-considered and thoughtful a decision as possible, and to gather all his resources and support around him first, as Belle has noted above. (Own lawyer, own therapist, own decisions. Important stuff.)

*butting back out now
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
This is a question for jason's lawyer, but I'm just wondering what happens when he moves out to the lease and his responsibility to pay for the apartment. If there's a legal order of separation, can he have his name removed from the lease so she has to pay for the apartment herself?
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Good question. He does need a lawyer for sure.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Dag had this to say:

quote:

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I can't post on Hatrack from work and can't see profiles without logging in.
I saw jasonepowell's thread and would really like someone to suggest two things to him, as soon as possible:

1.) See a lawyer before moving out or asking her to leave. There are simple things that must be done in some states to avoid charges of abandonment.

2.) Posting in public about marital problems might cause trouble in the proceedings - it can look vindictive, and it creates a record. He should ask his lawyer if he should erase the thread. Not to deny it was posted if asked, but to avoid handing her ammunition. Once lawyers come into the picture, it can be important to preserve privilege. Public posting can destroy privilege.

Would you feel comfortable fowarding this message - either in the thread (you can publicly state this is from Dagonee)...

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quote:

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I think you think strongly about heedinng dag's advice on this and deleting it.

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To be clear, my advice was to ask a lawyer about deleting it, not to delete it. This is very important, for very boring reasons.

(I'm only clarifying for my own protection, not to nit-pick with you, Belle.)

And thanks, Tom.
 

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Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
 
Yes, definitely ask your lawyer while you're filing for divorce if you should delete the thread.

Yes. Divorce her. You have tried to make this work and she has continually and maliciously hurt you. Stop hoping that she will see the error of her ways. Mourn for what she used to be, but do not hope for it to return.
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
I'm sorry things have continued in an unpleasant direction and I agree with everyone who has recommended seeing a lawyer for advice about how to handle a separation. I also agree that she has no right to force you to do anything (like leaving but still supporting her, etc.).

Since you are both named on the lease of your current home, something will need to change with the lease in light of the separation - the lawyer can best advise you as to what and how.

You could even see about terminating your lease early (with your wife paying the financial penalties, since she's the one driving the separation) and both of you finding new homes....
 

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Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
Iudosti - That's what I was thinking: wonder if they could just get out of the lease and go from there with the 'trial separation'?

jasonepowell - I probably sound like a broken record, but the lawyer thing is a really good idea. Don't forget that all of our trials make us stronger once we've come through them. I hope you have a couple of 'real life' friends you're talking about this with, too. Hatrack is awesome (imho in the short time i've been here) but it doesn't really compare to the few good friends I can sit at the kitchen table and cry/yell/laugh/talk with...

Samarkand - Can too much antidepressant really make someone go manic? I'm not disputing, just asking.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I'm sorry things have turned out this way for you.

One more bit of advice I'd offer, is make sure you get your OWN lawyer. Some divorce lawyers will offer to do the entire proceedings, working for both parties. Don't believe it. You need a lawyer representing you, and only you.

I hope things work out for you. If your lawyer suggests you delete this thread, maybe you can ask if you can start a different one without mentioning specifics, just to get a place to talk about things. It's a tough road, but you'll make it through in one piece, and better off at the end.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Dag, do you have any advice on how to go about choosing a lawyer? When C & I were splitting up I just picked 5 at random out of the phone book and went and talked to them, and considered both their vibe and their rates in making my decision. That worked well enough for me, but I didn't need a particularly skilled lawyer since the dissolution was completely amicable.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I would ask lawyers I know, an option not available to most. Barring that, I'd do what you did, I think.

Unless you knew someone who had used a lawyer for the same type of case and was thrilled with the service.
 

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Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 
Jason, et al

My intent was not to be too harsh--but to be realistic (as some have noted).

So, you are only leasing your apartment? So, can you leave, and have your name taken off the lease? Or, if after you are separated, can you do that?

My concern with YOU leaving had been a material/financial one, since the house would have been a major asset. However, if it's leased, then your risk is short-term. She could trash it, or fail to make payments on it.

So, leave, and stop paying it. See what you can do to separate yourself financially from mer (her debts).

But, get an attorney. Life is not fair, and your marriage is over.

Tristan said, "But if you wish her to come back to you eventually..." To which I say NO, NO, NO. She will never come back, and when you have regained your senses, you will realize that you don't want her back.

There is absolutely no sensible path of recovery for your marriage, unless you would like to have your testicles cut off and handed to her. Period.

I am sorry to be so blunt. But the marriage is dead, Jim. You need a good, personal therapist to help grieve, and you need a good lawyer, immediately, to keep from getting screwed over--either by your STBX wife or your own noble intentions.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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There is absolutely no sensible path of recovery for your marriage

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Whoa, there.
Hold up.
I see a lot of people telling you to "cut your losses" and run.

These people are, IMO, catastrophically misguided. They may be right. But the odds are, frankly, that they're not married.

Yeah, things look bleak right now; she's off doing her own thing for whatever reason, and she's hurt you badly. But unless you believe, like Boothby apparently does, that people cannot atone and be forgiven for their mistakes, it's more than a little premature to call your marriage "dead" after less than a week of deliberation.

You may someday decide to give up on your vows; you may someday decide that she's given up on your vows. But until that's clear, I wouldn't consider even for one moment taking Boothby's sulfurous "advice" seriously; it's pure poison.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I agree with Tom. Going to see a lawyer now is NOT a statement that you have given up hope on the marriage.

Rather, it is a statement that the marriage might end - a possibility that must be recognized here - and that certain things should be done.

If nothing else, having a realistic understanding of the divorce process is absolutely necessary to making an informed decision about whether you should obtain one.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I like Tom's attitude the best.

-pH
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Well said, Tom.
 

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Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 
Tom,

I am married.

Sometimes happily, sometimes not.

I have been talking to people for months about this very subject. Obviously, I'm no expert. To be honest, since every case is different, there are no experts. But there are so many paths to divorce, and so few paths back. All the paths back are "paved" with trust.

There's no trust left. There's no respect. There's no love (from her, at least). She's not mistaking Jason for a hat. She's made her decision.

Here's the question: Do you want to be married to that?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Do you KNOW there's no love? You aren't psychic. There are people who've gotten divorced and MARRIED OTHER PEOPLE, then divorced the other people and remarried each other. And they love each other very much.

-pH
 

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Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 
pH,

I know that she no longer loves him. Don't you? Or, if she does, its a lousy sort of love that no person in their right mind would want.

And that divorced/married/remarried thing? Sure there are people who have done that. At last count, there are six. And they're all screwed up.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
People do dumb crap even when they love someone. You can't just arbitrarily dub people screwed up. You make some pretty harsh decisions about love.

-pH
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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I know that she no longer loves him. Don't you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by cmc:
Samarkand - Can too much antidepressant really make someone go manic? I'm not disputing, just asking.

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Briefly, certain antidepressants are known for tending to drive bipolar (manic-drepressive) persons into mania. It can be a trigger. And since people with bipolar disorder may just not yet have had their first mainc episode (instead, perhaps have only manifested depression), it is a real risk in that sort of pharmacological therapy.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I know of marriages which survived far worse behavior by one spouse. Far, far worse, and they are thankful every day that the other spouse didn't give up.

I know more that didn't recover , but not one of those spouses regretted trying after such behavior.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I would say it's best to try, even if for nothing more than to be able to honestly tell yourself that you did everything you could to make it work, and it wasn't your fault. Sometimes, you need a little something to cling to.

At the same time, don't get taken to the cleaners.
 

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Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 
Dag,

Survived? Who wants a marriage that "survived"?

How about thrived?

I give this marriage an 'F'. You seem to be saying, "Settle for a 'D'." I say that no one should settle for less than a "B".

I think the likelihood is far greater that Jason will regret staying, vs. how much he will regret leaving.
 

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Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
I've refrained from posting in this thread but have been interested/mindful of jason. I hope for the best for you.

I have a friend who is going through some tough marital issues and I've been her sounding board. The last thing she wants is to be told what to do and that there is that there's no hope. Yes, I said it once and that's it. So IMO Boothby, I think your point has been made and it's time stop ripping on a situation that isn't yours as feelings in situations like this can be sensitive/tender/any other careful adjective you choose to put here.

Good luck jason, we care about you.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 

quote:

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Survived? Who wants a marriage that "survived"?

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quote:

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Survived? Who wants a marriage that "survived"?

How about thrived?

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quote:

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I give this marriage an 'F'.

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quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:

quote:

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Survived? Who wants a marriage that "survived"?

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Yeah, whoever said anything about marriage being work? If you hit a bump, it means it's not meant to be and you should bail.

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quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:

quote:

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Survived? Who wants a marriage that "survived"?

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Yeah, whoever said anything about marriage being work? If you hit a bump, it means it's not meant to be and you should bail.

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quote:

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But his STBX-wife has taken on some pretty extreme and destructve behaviors.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boothby171:
Survived? Who wants a marriage that "survived"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boothby171:
Survived? Who wants a marriage that "survived"?

How about thrived?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boothby171:
If it can survive, and later thrive, then that's (obviously) great. But if it barely makes it, and survives but is near death for the rest of its duration...no one wants that.

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