This is topic Not again! UPDATED! Employed again! Yea! in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
 
My husband lost his job today. This is not the first time. Or the second. This is the 7th time he has been unemployed in the four years we have been married.

I have been supporting him financially and emotionally while he works and goes to school. I do the budget, pay the bills, take care of our three-year-old, cook all our meals, do all of our shopping, and I work full time and volunteer with two church groups. At my job, I teach, I am the sponsor of a leadership group, and I am the leader of a huge grant project. I am basically a single parent since he is rarely home, which has pretty much been the norm since she was born.

We just found out we owe $1400 in back taxes due to an accountant's mistake (he was a family friend so we really can't do much about it) and another $6500 from a job my husband used to have where he did his own taxes incorrectly. I worked as a teacher fellow this summer to earn money to pay off my credit card, which is maxed out due to one of his job losses. I didn't get to pay off any of that because he lost a job this summer (#6) and I used the money to pay bills and help him buy HVAC tools for the job he just lost.

He is going to school for HVAC since in Texas he will always have work but this was an HVAC job he got fired from. They couldn't insure him to drive their trucks because according to them, his driving record was too bad. I don't think it is that bad but evidently they are pretty picky. It really sounds like it isn't his fault but it hasn't been his fault 6 other times. He is bad about looking for another job and I have to nag and pressure him into doing anything.

I want to leave. I can pay my share of the bills. I can support myself and my daughter. I am contributing something to this marriage but he isn't. He wants me to stay and he wants to do better but I am tired of doing everything. When do I know when enough is enough? [Cry] [Frown]

[ September 21, 2006, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: MandyM ]
 
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
[Frown] The slew of Hatracker marital problems recently makes me sad. I'm sorry, Mandy, and wish I had something constructive to suggest.
 
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
 
In my opinion, you already know that enough is enough. Losing your job six times is either a spate of INCREDIBLY horrible luck, or, more likely, a patttern. If he can't hold down a job, what kind of an example is he going to be to your child?

I know there are a lot of people on this forum, perhaps even you, who do not support divorce - at least, not for something like this. I happen to not be one of them, even though I think that divorce is NOT something to be undertaken lightly when a child is involved. However, I think it's more important to consider the future of your child than anything else. Consider all aspects of your child's future, and make your decision based on that. Only you can decide, of course, but if I were in your shoes, my decision would be to leave.
 
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Okay, I'm going to relate some history here, and I'm not trying to say your situation is analogous, but what you posted reminded me.

My stepfather had a similar pattern. he would lose jobs, and it was always someone elses' fault that he lost them. Every time my mother would wind up running up credit cards or cashing out retirements in order to pay the bills and keep our family afloat. He always had a big plan - this time he'd go to law school and become a lawyer, or he'd do this, or that....and nothing ever happened.

Eventually my mom wound up homeless and bankrupt and said enough was enough and filed for divorce and moved in with me.

I am not a supporter of divorce...unless there truly is no other alternative. I can say that my mother regrets waiting as long as she did to leave. She will really never recover financially, because she stayed with him through the same kind of pattern you're talking about for more than 20 years.

Mandy I don't know you well enough to offer advice in this situation, but for what it's worth, I offer up my mother's experience to see if it helps you clarify your decision. Regardless, I wish you luck, and I'm sorry it's happening.
 
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
Man, that's tough. It's not easy any way you look at it... Have you talked with him about you feel - about how you feel as though you're doing everything and getting nothing from him in return? (sorry if that's a really stupid question)
 
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Well - I think he needs a wake-up call. I would make sure you close all the joint credit credits and transfer your money to a bank account in your name only, etc. Make sure he can't get to it. THEN tell him that while you love him and wish to see him happy, and to have a family, you can't keep standing by while he loses jobs and you work so hard with a child. Then kick him out/ move out/ something and tell him you're there for encouragment and would like everything to work out in the future, but you can't continue to support him finacially and risk your future and your daughter's. *shrug*

I do NOT mean this as criticism or a value judgement (I've found myself doing the same thing with people) but you have basically been an enabler - he can afford not to keep his jobs because he knows you'll help him out. So stop helping. He has to grow up sometime!

I'm so sorry. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. *HUG*
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Warning - Cynicism ahead.

Of course he wants you to stay. You support him financially and emotionally, do the budget, pay the bills, take care of your three-year-old, cook all your meals, do all of your shopping, buy him tools, and allow him to go through 7 jobs in 4 years with no negative consequences. How's he going to pay that new $6500 in back taxes he screwed up on if you leave? And if he's never home, where is he, particularly when he's between jobs and not looking all that hard?

I think you'd be fully justified in leaving now. Every time I've given someone (in a dating relationship, never been married) "one more chance" to work through big issues it's ended up not working out, and since you've got a child involved if you're going to end up leaving anyway it might be better to do it now. But if you want to give him one more chance, I would do everything you can to make it very, very clear that this is it.

For starters, I wouldn't pay for any more tools or any more schooling for now. He needs to get a job and show he can hold it for a decent amount of time. It doesn't matter at this point if it's a great job or even a good job -- he needs to be contributing something to the upkeep of the family. After he's been working for at least a year, steady, and y'all have paid off the IRS and hopefully the credit card debt, then if he still wants to go back to school and improve his prospects, fine. In the meantime, you, as a family, just can't afford it. I also wouldn't let him have any spending money. I know that sounds harsh for a marriage, but he's proven he can't handle financial issues, and you're close enough to leaving that you are justified in thinking of everything you earn as your money. If it's not already going into an account he doesn't have access to, change it now. I'd keep feeding him, of course, but it's a lot less fun to be unemployed if you don't have any pocket change. Plus that way if you do end up leaving, you won't have to worry about it then.

Good luck, Mandy, no matter what you decide. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. I know it's not what you expected when you got married.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
As I was reading the first post, I was feeling sorry for the couple going through so many problems, and then was really surprised to see after that "I want to leave" and the last paragraph about possibly doing so.

I know that there's always much more going on, and you've no doubt only shared with us the tip of the iceberg. But from what you've shared, I'm pretty surprised to see so many people supporting the idea of divorce in this situation.
 
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I'm more in the camp of the wake up call people. I think outright leaving him, if that means saddling him with all the bills and taking off to start life anew, will pretty much ensure that his life collapses, and your three year old never sees her father again.

I think he needs to find the best job he can, within the month, with the education he has, and make him hold it down for awhile. If it is honestly the fault of his employers, I don't see that as cause for divorce, but if it is as you and others here suspect, due to his own faults, then he needs a jolting wake up call to spur him into action to straighten up. I think I agree with the no spending money thing too, so long as he is unemployed, but once he gets a job of some kind, it's only fair he get his share of whatever is deemed spending money. Forcing him into virtual slavery will only make him feel as caged as you do, and that wouldn't be healthy for the relationship.

I think it deserves another chance, but not another chance just like all the others, it's time to go into lockdown mode, batton down the hatches and put the screws to him (can't think of any more cliche statements). Tell him this isn't like any other post-job loss recovery, it's a last ditch effort, and he'd better make it right, or else consequences ensue. If it were me at that point, I'd rather be emptying grease traps at McDonalds than lose my family.

Change the rules of the game, but don't quit it. I hope whatever you do works out for the best for everyone involved. Good luck.
 
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
mr_porteiro_head - Are people talking about divorce, necessarily (sp?) or just a reality check? To me, it seems as though MandyM's been giving a lot more than she's been getting back in the relationship. As you've mentioned we're hearing only one side. At the same time, from what I know, it seems like she needs to make it known, whether through action or discussion, that it's distressing to her and let her partner know that she feels like (and what it seems like) she's carrying all of the 'responsible' weight.

That's tough on any relationship. I was with someone for a long time (not married but together for three and a half years) and he kept losing his job. It got to the point where I couldn't take it anymore. He was too proud to go for a job just 'anywhere' so that he'd have at least somewhat of an income because he was waiting for the job that would 'pay him what he was worth'.

Not for nothing - or however the phrase goes - I truly feel my saying 'If you're not willing to do what it takes to make this relationship work then maybe we should work on ourselves for a while' was the best thing ever. We're not together now (remember, we were just together and not married) but we're friends - and I'm so proud of him. He moved back in with his Dad for a while and has since gotten his stuff together. I'm not trying to say that this 'tough love' works for everyone or that our relationship ending is what made his life turn the corner, but I'd like to think it played a part.

Sometimes it takes something hard, like the person you love the most telling you that they need more than you're giving them, that they need more of what you're capable of instead of what you're settling for, that they need more support, that they need WHATEVER it may be... to wake them up to the reality that they're just drifting through life.

I'm not saying that MandyM should ditch her husband tomorrow; I'm just saying (to mr_portiero_head and whoever else is listening/reading) that maybe folks aren't saying divorce; maybe they're just saying a reality check...
 
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
I, at least, was not necessarily advocating divorce, although I don't know what is legally needed to keep a spouse out of your piggy bank. I just wouldn't tolerate a man who failed to contribute financially and was in fact ruining my credit and finances as well as my daughter's financial security under my roof. But I've got a strong streak of Southern blood in me.

When my uncle dropped out of high school my grandma drove him to the Coast Guard office and said "Ok, bye, don't come home." It sounds incredibly harsh, but I think she did a very brave thing. He was (and is) charming and capable of getting people to just give him stuff. He's been through three marriages and is now in what I believe is his final marriage and is a multi-millionaire based on his own entreprenurial work. He's still fun-loving and charming and ridiculous, but he's all grown up. My aunt doesn't take any crap from him either, and I think that's why this marriage works. He can't charm anything out of her if she doesn't want to charmed.

I think if my grandma had said "Aww, it's ok sweetie, school is tough, come on home," his life would be pretty sucky right now.

I just think he needs a swift kick in the butt and to find out what it's like to pay his own rent and grocery bills.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I'm not a supporter of divorce, in part because even when it is necessary (and I don't know if it is in this case), it's a very, very painful and difficult solution. And that's even without a child involved . . .

However, I think it's clear that you cannot continue the way you are going. I strongly recommend counseling. I understand that money is tight, but I bet you can find places with sliding scale, or possibly even fully subsidized (through your church, local community center, or sometimes even through your local government) counseling.

If you can't get him to go with you, go alone. A counselor can help you set boundaries, help you come up with workable plans, and help you examine the situation from a perspective that is not so emotionally charged.

GOOD LUCK!!! *hug*
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
You might want to look into credit/financial counseling too. A friend of mine is married with two kids and was over $25,000 in debt. After counseling, he managed to pay it down in about 4 years. Obviously this won't solve all your problems, but it might make things a little easier.

Good luck, it sounds like a really tough situation.
 
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
MandyM: Just a word of caution. You may not actually be able to walk away from the debt or the tax liability. If you do nothing else, you need to go see a financial advisor who can help you sort out your options and explain the limits of your liability. It'll be important for your husband to not obligate the family further, so the two of you together (if you stay together) may need some financial planning. But you should start with just you. Get info before you leap.

And, if you do split up, don't agree to pay for all the marital debt.
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I pretty well agree with ElJay, Samarkand, and anyone else in the 'tough love' camp. Boot his ass -- it's grownup time.

<----- has no patience for moochers.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Best of luck, MandyM.

Please keep in mind that virtual opinions from people you don't know, and who don't know you are worth as much as a fart in a bottle. Maybe less.
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
quote:
If he can't hold down a job, what kind of an example is he going to be to your child?
An example of how a person's worth is not determined by their job (or lack thereof).

Incidently, I agree with Scott R.
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
quote:
Please keep in mind that virtual opinions from people you don't know, and who don't know you are worth as much as a fart in a bottle. Maybe less.
quote:
Incidently, I agree with Scott R.
*head asplodes*
 
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I'm very sorry, MandyM:( What an awful situation. I can't say I really know what I would do in this situation, or even when enough is enough. That's entirely a matter of personality and opinion. I know what you've been through probably would've been enough for ME, though.

All I can do, I think, is state that I think this is clearly more than just financial difficulties. This is also a matter of your husband simply not being a man, an adult-unless he's got some oppresser who hounds him wherever he goes, six times is not all someone else's fault.

That is a major problem in a marriage, especially a child-rearing marriage.

Also, he is willing to simply let you do things for him and save him from negative consquences. Another sign of childishness-not necessarily even childishness, sometimes children like to help themselves, it's more a sign of selfishness. That's a major problem.

But above all is the problem posed by his continuing to do these things and pose these problems. That is the most serious problem, I believe. It points to a fundamental lack of respect, and a willingness to betray-in bits and in seemingly unrelated ways, I agree-the kind of trust that should be in a marriage.

Now, I don't know how you've handled these occurrences in the past. I do know that each of these problems I've mentioned becomes more or less serious depending on how you've reacted in the past.

Whatever the case and your eventual decision may be, I hope you have good luck and a good life.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think leaving him is too much, but I love some of the advice so far. Go to a financial advisor to limit your liability, change all the finances you contribute to your accounts and in your name, stop paying for school and tools, and don't give him spending money. He can eat the food in the house, but stop enabling him to duck the consequences of his actions.
 
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MandyM:
My husband lost his job today. This is not the first time. Or the second. This is the 7th time he has been unemployed in the four years we have been married.

I have been supporting him financially and emotionally while he works and goes to school. I do the budget, pay the bills, take care of our three-year-old, cook all our meals, do all of our shopping, and I work full time and volunteer with two church groups. At my job, I teach, I am the sponsor of a leadership group, and I am the leader of a huge grant project. I am basically a single parent since he is rarely home, which has pretty much been the norm since she was born.

We just found out we owe $1400 in back taxes due to an accountant's mistake (he was a family friend so we really can't do much about it) and another $6500 from a job my husband used to have where he did his own taxes incorrectly. I worked as a teacher fellow this summer to earn money to pay off my credit card, which is maxed out due to one of his job losses. I didn't get to pay off any of that because he lost a job this summer (#6) and I used the money to pay bills and help him buy HVAC tools for the job he just lost.

He is going to school for HVAC since in Texas he will always have work but this was an HVAC job he got fired from. They couldn't insure him to drive their trucks because according to them, his driving record was too bad. I don't think it is that bad but evidently they are pretty picky. It really sounds like it isn't his fault but it hasn't been his fault 6 other times. He is bad about looking for another job and I have to nag and pressure him into doing anything.

I want to leave. I can pay my share of the bills. I can support myself and my daughter. I am contributing something to this marriage but he isn't. He wants me to stay and he wants to do better but I am tired of doing everything. When do I know when enough is enough? [Cry] [Frown]

Wow, it's like you've written the other end of my biography. I completely sypathize with your husband.

This is not a good thing for him, however. I know what he's going through because I've also been there. I've lost jobs through my own stupidity. I've gotten far too many traffic violations and had to pay the consequences. I've known that I need to look for a job, but have chosen instead to hide myself from the world (books were good for that). I know that the rut he is in is surmountable, but it takes a hell of a lot of effort and desire.

Fortunately, though, I've changed. It took a concerted effort on my part (and the birth of my daughter) and it wasn't easy. I'm nowhere near perfect, but I've been able to hold down the same job for over 18 months. I've had three jobs in the last three years, but they were all moving up the chain, not down. Each job ended with two week's notice and the start of a new, better paying job.

Still, I teeter on the edge. There have been a couple of scary moments where I had to wake myself up and realize that what I was doing affected my family and myself. I'd look into my daughter's eyes and realize that my selfish mistakes might mean that she didn't get to eat the next day (unlike you, I am the sole source of income for the family).

I've fixed the driving issues (thank God for living close to work and cruise control) and I am acutally affordabily insurable again! Living close to work makes insurance dirt cheap, by the way.

I hope he feels the same way I do when he looks at himself in the mirror. I hope he feels the deep, heart-wrenching guilt that I feel when he examines his actions. I hope he realizes that one can only give so many second-chances. There's self-loathing there, I know it. It's probably one of the reasons he stays away so much. You and your child are the very personification of his responsibility and that can be hard to face when you're a pathalogical screw-up.

He needs to get addicted to success. He needs to see that gleam in your eye when he comes home letting you know he's got a new, better job or a raise at his current one. He needs to feel that rush when you jump up and down because a credit card got paid off and there's one less debt to concern yourself with (that one feels really good). That's the only way he's going to turn around. The rut he's in also fills his body with chemicals- they're not the good kind, but the body seems to like them anyways.

I know that realizing I was never going to grow out of my ADD was a big help. Getting the help and medication I needed was part of the big picture of turning myself around. The meds aren't the complete answer to my problems, but they've helped me sustain the changes I've made to my personality and my professionalism.

I'm not offering any advice. I hate it when I vent about something and everyone comes storming in. I just wanted to let you know that I, at least from the outside, know what you're going through.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Primal, that was an awesome post.
 
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Primal, that was an awesome post.

Thanks. It wasn't easy to write. I like it when people think of me as "The Smart Guy" or "The Guy Who's Got it All." I am smart. I'm also absent-minded and irresposible. I have to keep the latter in check.

I don't know how many times I've gotten the "Glynn, you're so smart (and they mean this), why are you doing this to yourself/why are you throwing your life away/what's so hard about getting it right/you'd be perfect if you'd just ___/you could really do something with your life/etc speech?

I hate that speech. I much prefer the "Glynn, please don't leave. If you do, we'll have a huge, gaping hole. This place will fall apart" Speech. It helps when its true.
 
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
quote:
If he can't hold down a job, what kind of an example is he going to be to your child?

An example of how a person's worth is not determined by their job (or lack thereof).

It's not the lack of a job that people here are commenting on, it's the (anecdotal) attitude and lack of responsibility to do what needs to be done to support those who depend on you, even if the means are not what you'd hoped for. And that does set an example, a poor one.
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
quote:
It's not the lack of a job that people here are commenting on, it's the (anecdotal) attitude and lack of responsibility to do what needs to be done to support those who depend on you, even if the means are not what you'd hoped for. And that does set an example, a poor one.
Then I think what should have been said is "If he's too irresponsible to care about doing what needs to be done for his family, what kind of an example is he going to be to your child?"

I can't be certain from the information given if that's what is going on here - or if, on the other hand, he's trying hard to be responsible and isn't succeeding at it yet. Not knowing him, I couldn't say, and I wouldn't want to try to guess based on one post that may or may not be casting him in a certain light. But if a lack of responsibility IS the problem, I don't think just having a job will fix it. Repeatedly losing your job doesn't make you irresponsible towards you family, and vice-versa holding a job won't make an irresponsible person into someone responsible.

A thought that comes to mind is this: Could he do more of the budget, paying the bills, cooking the meals, raising the children, etc. while he is looking for a job? If he is having career trouble, would he be willing to take the domestic responsibilities on instead, at least until he gets things straight? Why isn't he home often, if he isn't working and is bad about looking for another job? I'd think the answers to these questions could help clarify whether it is a lack of responsibility that is the problem, or something else.
 
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
That's why I added "anecdotal." We don't know, and I don't want to make flat statements based on hearsay.
 
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
 
You know, I don't contribute one red cent to our family. But I do take care of the kids and help them with homework and get them where they need to go and cook and do laundry and occasionally try to straighten up the house. Hubby is our sole wage earner. But we feel we're a partnership in making the family work.

If he's not working, and you're essentially paying all the bills anyway, is there any reason he can't be the one responsible for the "other half" of making a family go? Families work better when there are two parents for a reason - because there's enough work to do for TWO adults. Perhaps if getting and keeping a job is not his forte, you two could flip things around and just agree that you will be the wage earner and he will be the one responsible for the child care and the cooking and whatnot. It's only fair.
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
Yeah, when I read this post, and the responses to it, I couldn't help but wonder what the reaction would have been if this was a man talking about his wife's career struggles.

I'd imagine that the responses would be far different.

I'd bet that some folks would ask if perhaps having a more domestic role would be better for the wife, if holding down a career isn't easy for her.

I don't see why this question wouldn't be equally applicable for the husband in this situation.

If you can fully support yourself and your children on what you make, then perhaps your husband could hold things down at home for a while, perhaps while working part time on the weekends to offset his spending and pay down some debt? Is he resposible enough to do this at least?

I don't know who is taking care of your three year old when you are working, but if it is daycare, you'd probably be better off financially with this option regardless of his job prospects.

If I remember correctly (and it is quite possible that I don't) our own Papa Moose became a stay-at-home Dad when he lost his job, and last I heard that was working out well for their family.

However, I do not know your situation, your Husband, or even you very well [Smile] .

I most likely wouldn't even be posting at all, if 80% of the posts here weren't "yeah, you should probably leave him." Imagine a husband being frustrated with his wife not being able to hold a job, and having hatrackers tell the man to go right ahead and leave his wife. I couldn't see it. It is pretty clear double standard in our society, IMHO.

Edit: Looks like some others had similar thoughts as I did while I was posting [Smile] .
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I think the answer to "Should I divorce him or not" comes down to where he's going when he's not at home.

Is he going to school and studying? Is he looking for work?

Or is he hanging out with his buds?

If it's the last one, (or something worse) chuck him to the curb. If he'd rather spend your precious time together with his buds (more than a coupla times a week) then he's already left you, he just hasn't moved out.

However the same thing goes for you. You sound like an incredibly busy person with work, all the chores and a child. Why are you voluntarily stacking on more by volunteering at your church? You're not doing God any favors by helping other people's families at the expense of your own.

Do you still love your husband? Are you just frustrated by his lack of ability to pull his own weight? Or is your desire to call it quits a by-product of you being tired?

Pix
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Xavi: If the woman wasn't taking care of the kids and was out with her friends all the time, didn't do the shopping or laundry or cooking and it all fell to the man to work, clean, and everything else, you betcher sweet butt I'd be saying kick her lazy cula to the curb.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Is there counseling through church? You haven't been married very long, and you have a kid. I hear frustration in your first post, but it sounds like you still love him, and you do have a kid. I think something definitely needs to happen, but I would exhaust every other option first, including counseling.

I also heard on NPR that it's possible to make legal arrangements to separate finances between spouses. It's unusual, but I think...I think that if it saves a marriage because the money stuff doesn't get all tied up with the love and family part, then that's worth trying.
 
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Mandy, you have my deepest sympathies. Really. I'm sure you'll do whatever's right. Good luck.
 
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
 
Gah! I just wrote a whole long post and lost it. Starting over…

I thank you all for your thoughtful responses. Everything you guys have said has helped. Really.

Belle, your post is exactly what I am worried about. I don’t want to look back in 4 more years and wish I had left sooner.

Cmc, he is well aware of how I feel. This is not the first time we have had this conversation but it is the first time I have really thought about leaving.

Sam and ElJay, I agree that I have been enabling him and I need to stop. He is not consciously trying to manipulate me or take advantage of me, but he is irresponsible and forgetful and he does not always put the needs of the family above his own. He is not trying to screw things up. Doing the right thing is just always out of his grasp and often it just doesn’t occur to him to take care of things unless I push him to do it.

After rereading my post, I think I may have given the impression that he is out playing while I am at home taking care of everything. That is certainly not the case. When he has a job, he works hard and often works very long hours, leaving me at home to runt he house. The past two semesters, he has been in school full time in addition to working full time so he is in class most nights during the week, which I am supportive of. I am not paying for school but I am paying for supplies, which are mostly tools for his HVAC classes. He gets free tuition since he is a veteran. He will be done with his certification this semester and until this job loss, he was planning to stay in school until next summer to get an associates degree so he would eventually be able to make more money.

Lyrhawn, I have always thought the reasons he was let go from jobs were not his fault. It is just the shear number of them now that make me think some of this has to be him. Perhaps his forgetfulness and irresponsibility get him in as much trouble at work as they do at home. Either way he is completely oblivious to what he is doing wrong until it is pointed out to him and that is usually too late.

I am going to seek counseling for myself and I know he will go with me. I know of a Christian sliding scale counseling center in a neighboring town and I will call them as soon as I get a chance.

We have taken the Dave Ramsey Financial Peace program and it was wonderful. My husband was on board with the finances and we were working together on our money situation for a while. Money is difficult for me to handle as well so it is a daily struggle for me and I was excited to have him helping share the burden. Unfortunately, he has completely given up on helping me. If I didn’t pay the bills or manage the budget, it just wouldn’t get done. As far as the taxes, the higher number is all his doing. We haven’t filed those taxes yet, just prepared them, and I think I am going to just file separately. That might lessen my liability for that debt.

I know I shouldn’t only take into consideration what strangers tell me online. However, I will say that your comments are right along with what my close friends and family are telling me.

I agree that a person’s worth is not determined by their job but being responsible and taking care of things is. It is not the job I am worried about as much as the fact the he isn’t pulling his weight. I feel like I am raising a toddler and a teenaged boy. He is not a partner in the marriage at all.

Rakeesh, what you said is EXACTLY how I feel. However, he is not doing this intentionally. He is not trying to be selfish. He is just clueless. Unfortunately, regardless of intent, the outcome is still the same. I have handled things in the past in a variety of ways and truthfully I am not always supportive and positive which has added to his lack of motivation and self-esteem. I am working on that but it is a fine line between helping and enabling.

Primal, I especially appreciate your post and I applaud you for your honesty. I think what you said is exactly how he feels. He truly has the best intentions; he just gets lost sometimes and I am the one responsible for getting him back on track. I am trying to stay positive and I try to encourage him more than I nag but honestly, I am worn out and have not been much help lately. What other suggestions do you have for how I can help him without being his mom? Again, thanks for being so candid. Hearing “his” side was something I really needed.

He and I would both love if he could stay home full time and take care of the house and our daughter. We could almost make it on my salary alone and if he got a part-time or overnight job, that would certainly help. The problem is because of all this, we have racked up a lot of debt and we need both incomes in order to just keep our heads above water. I have even thought about getting a second job but (again this is where my resentfulness kicks in) I feel like he should be the one to make sacrifices since he is the reason we are in debt in the first place. In between jobs he does take some of the household responsibilities but he is “out looking for a job” so not much gets done. I would be perfectly happy to be the sole wage earner if we could just whittle down some of this debt to a more manageable amount first. He would be a great stay-at-home dad I think and he would be able to contribute to our family that way!

I have seen stories of women who overspend and ruin the family financially. While that is not exactly what is happening here, it is similar and women are not glorified in those circumstances either. I would imagine husbands in that case would consider leaving their wives if it did not stop. It is not just that he is a man. It is that he is not a partner.

Pixiest, I am tired and frustrated. I do love him but how much can one person take. I do end up shouldering more responsibility than I can handle and I am going to talk to my pastor about dropping one of the things I am doing with the church.

Again, thanks for all the support. I think my next move is to split our bank account and get him to put one of our cars in his name. He knows he has some time before I am out the door to straighten up but hopefully he sees that I am at the end of my rope and he gets his act together. I will give you updates on how things are going. He has a job interview with another HVAC company today.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*hugs* I think you have a good plan. I wish y'all the best.
 
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MandyM:
What other suggestions do you have for how I can help him without being his mom?

That's sort of a loaded question. I'm not sure about him, but "helping" can be construed as "being Mom" in many ways- especially if he's hyper-sensitive to it.

It sounds like you've already tried to do everything in your power. I don't have any sort of one-size-fits-all answer for communicating the severity of his actions to him. I'm still dealing with these things myself.

Eventually, it comes back to him. He is the one who needs to accept his responsibility. He is the one who needs to make an effort here. You're probably burning yourself out trying to handle all of this.

I don't know whether or not you should stay or go, but perhaps it's time to tell him that you are at least considering it. Don't try and teach him, don't try and change him during that conversation. Just let him know what you are feeling and what you are considering doing. He needs to wake up and realize that his life is at stake. He needs to realize that his comfort and saftey net just might drop out from under him if he keeps it up.

It may or may not work. He may wall up and try and hide some more. It may work for a short period of time and then he'll slink back to his habits. I don't know, but he should know about this. I think it only fair.
 
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
 
Mandy, I hope all works out well for you! If he is a veteran, you may be able to get mental health benefits through the VA, which could include family counseling. You'd just have to be persistent in looking into it, as the VA can be a real bear to deal with until you have your answers.

Good luck! I know you'll come out a stronger person when all this is dealt with - hopefully, he will, too. Hugs!
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
I agree with katharina. Especially on the *hugs* part.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Really great advice to be found in this thread. Mandy I agree that freeing up some time by lessening your volunteer work is most likely warranted in this case.

What exactly has caused you to rack up so much debt? Tuition payments? Just general cost of living (and having to pay it through credit cards because of the lack of money?) Not accusing you of living a champagne lifestyle on a beer budget, just trying to get a sense for where the financial difficulties stem from.

Most divorces are a result of economical duress, from what you are saying it sounds like if you were debt free and making enough money to make ends meet, with just alittle extra to add some spice to your life, you would feel MUCH happier.

Is this a correct assertion?
 
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Well - I am most definitely not a medical professional of any kind, but could he struggling with some kind of ADD or ADHD? Or post-traumatic stress disorder? If he is, it may be that addressing that might help him to do what he wishes he could. However, I think it's important that any such investigation be predicated on finding a solution to the problems, not just an explanation. Sometimes people hide a bit behind diagnoses.

Whew! Best of luck.
 
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
 
Thanks again for your kind words and the hugs! This has been a really rough day today and you guys have made it a little easier.

Our debt is due to several things. To start with we are both bad with money. We are impulse buyers and we nickel-and-dime ourselves to death. However, we both have been making a much bigger effort to curb that over the years and we are mostly successful. Now a bigger problem is we owe more on our cars each month than we do on our mortgage. We would sell them and drive beaters if we could but we are horribly upside down on what we owe on them.

By far the biggest contributor to the debt has been his job situation and his irresponsibility. We cashed in his 401K after he was laid off from job #1 because we had no other option at the time. We had just bought a house and I was about to give birth. We used that money and most of my credit limit on bills until he found a better paying job. Job #2 was just not enough money but #3 is what got us in real trouble. He was an independant contractor for Fed Ex and we had to pay for the truck he used at work to the tune of $40K. The money was good but the hours were so long he never had time to enjoy it. A year and a half later, the truck was worn out and out of warranty and we could no longer afford the upkeep. We had to get rid of the truck so we traded it and another car in on one we have now. This was also when the $6500 tax screwup occured because as a contractor, taxes were not taken out of his check and he was not saving any of the money to use for taxes later. He also kept getting offers for credit cards and signed up for them and ran those up without my knowledge. I haven't used my credit card again since the first layoff but every time I get ahead enough to pay some of it, he loses another job. Also every time there has been a job switch, it throws us behind on our bills and I spend the next couple of months tightening our belts and getting things stable again. My parents have had to bail us out a few times as well. Last month we actually had money in our savings account but we have had some unexpected medical bills we had to cover (he had pneumonia and the baby had impetigo) so that is gone now. Of course this is when he loses his job again.

As far as him having ADD or post-traumatic stress, I wonder that too. I also wonder if sustained a bigger head injury in a wreck he was in years ago than we originally thought and he is really incapable of being more responsible. I wouldn't even know how to get something like that checked out. He is smart and has kept up in school so I am not sure about that. I absolutely believe he is clinically depressed but the last time he had health insurance to check it out, he made the appointment and got fired the day before so he never got checked out! He is insured now so I will mention him going to the doctor.

Anyway, thanks for listening today and letting me rant.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Here's a question: are you in a career track job that would enable HIM to stay at home with your child?
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
(Tom, she answered that upthread.)
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Mandy, I'm sorry you're going through such a rough time.
 
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
 
Update: He has had four good job interviews in the past two days and one has said they would hire him for sure if the insurance goes through. The pay is better than he had before, and they will give him a company car as well as pay for gas. It is pretty far from where we live but since they are paying for gas, it is no big deal. The other jobs are pretty good prospects too. He has also applied for the sliding scale counseling I mentioned before and he is helping out at home more. Things are looking up a little. Thanks for all the support!
 
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Mandy,

Very glad to hear the positive update.

You mentioned in your first post that you are active in some church groups -- does your husband also attend? Are there men in charge there that can talk with him and help him get on track and stay on track?

Your first post could have SO been written by me just before my divorce (16 years ago). Except he had 15 jobs in 6 years of marriage.

Our minister finally sat down with him, and had a good heart to heart. He did bring up I Tim 5:8 (But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.) and it's importance.

Unfortunately for us, it was the end of the rope for my husband, and he left at that point (in anger) and never came back. He left the state entirely, and we didn't know where he was and the kids didn't see him for about four years.

In the meantime, I had to pay ALL the back bills he had accumulated, on top of supporting my kids and getting back on my feet. That is a lot to handle, I would hate to see you have to go through that.

I hope you have a good support structure where you are, for the sake of you, your child and your marriage.

FG
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Glad to hear it Mandy, sounds like you are being very encouraging, and thats GOOD.

Best of luck for your husband, and you of course!
 
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
 
quote:
To start with we are both bad with money. We are impulse buyers and we nickel-and-dime ourselves to death.
Sounds like this could be a big part of the problem. If this is the case then...

(1) Don't use credit cards if you can avoid it. Pay cash, or use a debit card, so you can't get into more debt.

(2) As soon as you get a paycheck in, pay off a portion of your debt and/or set aside some into savings immediately. Pay that expense FIRST. Don't pay it last with whatever you have leftover. Once you don't have the money to spend, you can't make impulse purchases that you don't need.
 
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
Mandy, I'm sorry to read about your troubles, but I'm glad that things seem to be looking up.

One suggestion, with regards to housework and childcare - try writing everything down. People with ADD and other learning disabilities (and people who are just naturally disorganized) need a visual to keep them on-track. It might help a lot to either make a calendar with chores to be completed each day or a chore wheel. The specifics of the system don't matter, just that it works for y'all.

Some people just need things spelled out. When I write shopping lists for Andrew, I write exactly what I want. If I want French-cut frozen green beans, that's what I write. If I'm writing a list for myself, I just write "green beans," but Andrew just doesn't notice things like that, even though I've been getting the same kind of green beans for the past 6 years.
 
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
 
I held off a little since jason's problems were much worse than mine, but I am just too excited.

He did get the job he was hoping for (the one with the company car and higher pay) and he starts Friday. While he has been home, he has kept up the house cleaning, the laundry and done some yard work. He also kept our daughter home one day this week to have a daddy day. He has been positive and attentive all week and he is really trying to make an effort. I realize that I need to work on my instinctive reaction to leave everytime something bad happens. Thanks for all the support.
 
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 
[Smile]
 
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
Yay! Nice to hear all the good news. [Smile]
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
That's great Mandy! I'm glad to hear that things are going in such a positive direction.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Awesome. [Smile]

And I'm very glad you are willing to "own" your contribution. Good luck!
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Wonderful News [Smile]

Hope you are making sure your man knows how much you *ahem* appreciate these recent developments.
 
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
 
Good deal.
 
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
Glad to hear the good news, MandyM!

I also think it's cool how you realized you need to work on your own 'stuff' throughout this - it shows that you're really in it for the long run, not just expecting him to do all the changing.

I'm thinking positive thoughts for you guys! : )
 


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