Personally, I'm disgusted that some people in the Arab world are taking the Pope's quote out of context. Not so much with the normal citizens in the streets but their slimy politicians, fanatics, and religious leaders who are using this non-event to further enrage them to hate the West.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
As a poster on another forum put it: "Say that Islam is non-violent or we'll kill you." I wanted to start a thread about this but decided I didn't really want to "discuss" this. "Overreacting much?" is about all I have to say.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I like that the Pope apologized for upsetting people, but not for quoting an earlier work. When you're talking about your religions not understanding each other, it makes sense to use a few examples.
Anyone know if the Pope quoted any Muslim writings with negative stereotypes of Catholics? Showing the problems on both sides would certainly help the speech keep a balanced feel.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
So the problem is the Pope didn't have a balanced feel to his speech?
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
His comments and quotes had to do with violence being bad, not just mentioning negative stereotypes. I read parts of the speech, but not enough to say what other writings he might have quoted.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
As I heard it on an NPR report a few days ago, the remark was made during a speech by the Pope in his capacity as a scholar, speaking to other scholars. It was not a speech made to the general public about a general topic.
The speech concerned, if I remember the NPR report correctly, changing ideas within religion about rationality within religion over time, and how violence is irrational.
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This is really, really, really a time when there should be lots and lots of Muslims throughout the world and in the West in particular stating publicly and frequently that those followers of Islam who claim outrage over these remarks and threaten violence are traitors to their own faith, heretics, and to them-the moderate Muslims-not members of the same faith at all.
I'm sure this kind of thing-although unfortunately perhaps not to that extent-is being said frequently and by many moderate Muslims, but that sort of thing doesn't make it very often to the big banner headlines. I wish moderate Muslims had better press agents.
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
I read one blog commentator who suggested that the scholarly way he approached the subject was actually honoring the intelligence and scholarlyness of the specific Muslims he was addressing, NOT a dishonor. I thought that was an interesting way to look at it.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Telperion the Silver: I've not seen any thread on this so here goes.
You must have missed this one.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Missed it too, thanks dkw.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
quote:
quote:I've not seen any thread on this so here goes.
"Funny quote"??? D'ya think that there'll ever come a time when most thread titles will at least give a hint as to their topic?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I liked what she had to say kmbboots. Much better than stating that Islam is a religion of peace, followed by:
quote:We shall break the cross and spill the wine ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome ... (May) God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I especially liked
quote: Now if only I could make him a feminist ...
I haven't read the whole thing but I believe the speech was supposed to be about the place of all religions in the modern world. And about how violence should not be used to further the goals of religion. When I have more time I'm going to attempt to read the speech in full.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I have read the speech in full. I think he made a mistake that is fairly easy for highly academic preachers/lecturers to make -- he chose an illustration that had quite obvious content other than the point he wanted to use it to make. It's called letting your illustration get in the way of your point, and the pope has enough experience as a speaker that he should have seen it coming.
Which is why I think he was right to apologize.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
aspectre: It *was* funny at the time. The Muslims were only starting to erupt. And it was more about that one particular quote (at least, my original post) than the controversy in general.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
To quote someone is not to endorse the quote, and it's obvious that the Pope considers this quote offensive: "[The source] addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded..." Being offended by someone agreeing with you is logically stupid, but it's also pretty effective rhetorically.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: aspectre: It *was* funny at the time. The Muslims were only starting to erupt. And it was more about that one particular quote (at least, my original post) than the controversy in general.
The issue (it seems to me) was not whether it was funny but that the heading was so vague.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: As I heard it on an NPR report a few days ago, the remark was made during a speech by the Pope in his capacity as a scholar, speaking to other scholars. It was not a speech made to the general public about a general topic.
The speech concerned, if I remember the NPR report correctly, changing ideas within religion about rationality within religion over time, and how violence is irrational.
---------
This is really, really, really a time when there should be lots and lots of Muslims throughout the world and in the West in particular stating publicly and frequently that those followers of Islam who claim outrage over these remarks and threaten violence are traitors to their own faith, heretics, and to them-the moderate Muslims-not members of the same faith at all.
I'm sure this kind of thing-although unfortunately perhaps not to that extent-is being said frequently and by many moderate Muslims, but that sort of thing doesn't make it very often to the big banner headlines. I wish moderate Muslims had better press agents.
One of my closest friends is a Sunni Muslim. I'm pretty outraged at the Muslim tantrum, myself, and I asked him how he felt about it -- and he shrugged and asked, what, do I want him to apologize for other Muslims? Do I apologize for other Catholics?
He has a point. I don't see anyone apologizing for Fred Phelps. While Saad's rather blatantly uncritical of Middle Eastern actions -- he's in favor of Iran getting the bomb, for example, and understood why there were riots over cartoons. (To which I responded by sketching Muhammed. We didn't talk for a week or two.) -- he's not responsible for their lunacy.
That said, I'm very quickly becoming sick of ignorant fundamentalists. If Middle Eastern women weren't the most beautiful in the world, I'd be sorely tempted to let the place become the glass parking lot the primitive fundies there want it to be anyway.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I wouldn't expect anyone to apologize for anyone else, but would you think it's reasonable to ask for your condemnation of other Catholics, were they to do something crazy?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
I'm not sure it's exactly analogous, since as Catholics, we're actually a part of the same religion. Saad's a Sunni Muslim, though I forget which denomination -- and while I believe Wahabbism's also under the Sunni umbrella, it's obviously a very distinct sect from his own. And Shiites are even further removed. Perhaps better, would you ask a Methodist to apologize for a Southern Baptist? Or in Iran's case, would you ask a Protestant to apologize for a Lutheran?
I'm not in any way responsible for Pat Robertson, though we come from the same country and share, sort of, the same religion. And even if we attended the same church, is his malfunctioning somehow my shame? If a high school acquaintance goes postal tomorrow, should I apologize for his behavior?
Many Muslims simply don't feel responsible for their rednecks, no more than white Americans do for theirs. I can understand why many Muslims aren't rending their garments in their miserable guilt over OBL.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Personally, I have apologized for Fred Phelps, generally saying something along the lines of, "I'm sorry. That man is a hateful, vindictive jackass who would have trouble moving further from living as I believe God intended. Please don't judge other Christians by his horrible, hypocritical example."
While I do not feel personally responsible for his idiocy, nonetheless I feel it is my duty as a member of his religion to set the record straight to people who view him as a representative sample. It's kind of like how it was in the Boy Scouts, or how I imagine it is for people working in a uniformed service that isn't just a waiter uniform or something. When you're wearing the uniform, you're a representative and so you should behave well. Furthermore, as a public member of the thing the uniform represents, you should do what you can to 'clean up' your system's reputation, including repudiating those who taint it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Corwin: As a poster on another forum put it: "Say that Islam is non-violent or we'll kill you." I wanted to start a thread about this but decided I didn't really want to "discuss" this. "Overreacting much?" is about all I have to say.
My instinct is the same-- I tend to think that the "reaction" is a pretty typical one, and that the only "extraordinary" factor is the coverage it gets in the news. The news decides its a story, so its a story, where ten years ago it wouldn't have been. Then fact that it IS a story makes it a story twice removed, so you have a big story-story, not just a big story.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Irshad Manji - the woman in Sarahdipity's link - rocks. She's hosted a program or two on Canadian television, and she's extremely intelligent and just plain tough. I've watched her go head to head with grumbly Muslim men before and call them on their crap.
edit: oops, I swore
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I would like the Pope to have included in his speech, "the current violence is wrong just as The Crusades were wrong."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Perhaps he doesn't believe they were.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Then his voice would be hollow in condemning the current violence.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
That was excellently put, Lalo. It helped me see things from a different perspective.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
How so, LadyDove?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Hear hear Icarus, Lalo has excellent points.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Just read the provisional text of the speech. His quotes at the beginning might have inflamed a few people, but it was a nice set-up for the end where he noted that the "west" was irrational, also, and invited a dialogue between cultures.
quote:The West has long been endangered by this aversion to the questions which underlie its rationality, and can only suffer great harm thereby. The courage to engage the whole breadth of reason, and not the denial of its grandeur - this is the programme with which a theology grounded in Biblical faith enters into the debates of our time. "Not to act reasonably, not to act with logos, is contrary to the nature of God", said Manuel II, according to his Christian understanding of God, in response to his Persian interlocutor. It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.
It really isn't that long of a read -- it's your typical scholarly work with most sentences being quite lengthy, but it's a good and thoughtful read.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I just read the Guardian transcript, because during the night I was dreaming about Jesus saying "Peace I give unto you, but not as the world gives" and also the bit about him bringing a sword to divide families from each other.
The Pope's point didn't have much to do with tolerance, and only touched on violence. He did make a large point about freedom of conscience being taught in the Quran, but his main idea was that Muslims, reformers, and secular philosophers see God as unreasonable or beyond the ken of human reason.
But he included a quote that "nothing good" has come about from Islam or Muhammed which I believe is the main thing people have been upset about. And it didn't serve the point he was making in any way. It was very unfortunate, and I am grateful that he apologized, just as a fellow Christian.
I continue to believe Islam means Peace, but not the Peace that the world seeks. It is the Peace that comes through knowing the truth of one's place in the broad scheme of things (as extrapolated from a piece of fair cake. )
The Pope quoted the verse in the Quran that says there is no compulsion in religion. Which is odd since I don't know that the bible outlines anything similar. "You did not choose me, rather I chose you first." seems apt. So the criticism of nothing good coming from Islam wouldn't support that if that were a good thing. I'm not theologically sophisticated enough to know if the Pope's position would favor no compulsion in religion. But it is certainly a tenet of "Mormonism" and something I would consider good. And it seemed the Pope was using it to say "snap" to the Muslims.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: That said, I'm very quickly becoming sick of ignorant fundamentalists. If Middle Eastern women weren't the most beautiful in the world, I'd be sorely tempted to let the place become the glass parking lot the primitive fundies there want it to be anyway.
Sorry, after reading that I couldn't resist posting this somewhat inappropriate joke. . . . You have been warned . . . The Iranian Ambassador to the UN had just finished giving a speech, and walked out into the lobby where he met President Bush.
They shook hands, and as they walked the Iranian said, "You know, I have just one question about what I have seen in America.
President Bush said, "Well, anything I can do to help you, I will."
The Iranian whispered "My son watches this show 'Star Trek' and in it there is Chekhov who is Russian, Scotty who is Scottish, and Sulu who is Japanese, but no Arabs. My son is very upset and doesn't understand why there aren't any Iranians on Star Trek."
President Bush laughed, leaned toward the Iranian ambassador, and whispered back, "It's because it takes place in the future."
. . . .
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian:
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: That said, I'm very quickly becoming sick of ignorant fundamentalists. If Middle Eastern women weren't the most beautiful in the world, I'd be sorely tempted to let the place become the glass parking lot the primitive fundies there want it to be anyway.
Sorry, after reading that I couldn't resist posting this somewhat inappropriate joke. . . . You have been warned . . . The Iranian Ambassador to the UN had just finished giving a speech, and walked out into the lobby where he met President Bush.
They shook hands, and as they walked the Iranian said, "You know, I have just one question about what I have seen in America.
President Bush said, "Well, anything I can do to help you, I will."
The Iranian whispered "My son watches this show 'Star Trek' and in it there is Chekhov who is Russian, Scotty who is Scottish, and Sulu who is Chinese, but no Arabs. My son is very upset and doesn't understand why there aren't any Iranians on Star Trek."
President Bush laughed, leaned toward the Iranian ambassador, and whispered back, "It's because it takes place in the future."
. . . .
You are going to hell Bao, now I have to pay penance for laughing at that.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Because jokes about genocide are funny.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Because jokes about genocide are funny.
And because reactions people who can't take a joke that they've been warned about are too.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
"Iranian" isn't a... what is the target of a genocide? They are residents of a country that is playing "chicken" on the one lane highway of nuclear armaments. Or just trying to power their electric cars, depending on who you believe.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Iranians are mostly Persian, not Arabian.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
But "Middle Eastern" (Lalo's term) could be either of those.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Because jokes about genocide are funny.
And because reactions people who can't take a joke that they've been warned about are too.
The fact that you gave a warning that you were about to make a tasteless joke doesn't change the fact that it was tasteless.
Also, my reaction wasn't supposed to be funny.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy:
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Because jokes about genocide are funny.
And because reactions people who can't take a joke that they've been warned about are too.
The fact that you gave a warning that you were about to make a tasteless joke doesn't change the fact that it was tasteless.
Also, my reaction wasn't supposed to be funny.
what exactly makes a joke tasteless? By definition shouldnt it be NOT funny to MOST normal people if it is in fact tasteless?
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
The fact that you found it tasteless doesn't mean it's tasteless for the majority of the people who read it. You can't take everything so seriously...it's a silly joke, not some sort of call to wipe out residents of a nation. Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
You yourself called it inappropriate. Should we take a vote and see how many people thought it was tasteless and how many people thought it wasn't?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: But "Middle Eastern" (Lalo's term) could be either of those.
Given that Lalo didn't use the word "Arab," I thought it would be clear that I was talking about Bao's post, not Lalo's.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Although I don't think the joke is inappropriate, I was just trying to be courteous and recognize that some may not appreciate it. So sure buddy, you make the poll in the forum. You can access the forum polling function by pressing Alt-F4.
At the same time, call a vote on how 'appropriate' a comment about turning the middle east into a glass parking lot is, which you let pass without comment Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Also, my reaction wasn't supposed to be funny.
Heh. I love the lack of tone on the Internet. When I read it, I was thinking exactly the same sentence, except I was being funny Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I was reading that "No compulsion in Religion" in context, and it actually has to do with how much you donate to charity. Whether you convert in the first place, not so much.
It would be like pulling the "neither do I condemn thee" phrase out of the story of the woman taken in adultery and saying it applies to everyone in every circumstance.
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I wanted to start a thread about this but decided I didn't really want to "discuss" this. "Overreacting much?" is about all I have to say.
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