I am taking AP Composition this year. Despite the fact that I like my teacher very much and want the credit, I have though about dropping the course more than once. Not because it is difficult, which it is patently not, nor because the reading is not interesting, because it is. No, the simple fact is that the College Board appears to be stuck in about 1959.
Reading works published in the 1970s and later is part of the course, but each of these works must be analyzed in a semiotic manner. I don't object to literary semiotics, but nor do I deny the fact post-structuralism is currently a more dominate position, a fact which the A.P. test writers have chosen to ignore.
As a result, every passage is supposed to be combed through to find the author's intent in using any rhetorical device or word, as if authors themselves knew this.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
Something to admit, I do love how you write things. Pelegius, you remind me of the Lincoln-Douglas debaters at my school.
But on your point. Sure, in today's literature, we do prefer a post-structuralist viewpoint. And I tend to agree that it's more important to see what something means to the reader and not the author.
But not everyone is post-structuralst, so you'll just need to endure giving the author's interpretations. Would I suggest dropping the course? Not necessarily. Personally, I view a class on how much I'll get from it in terms of knowledge, not AP Credit. If you feel like you're reading interesting things and you enjoy the class, then keep taking the class.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"But not everyone is post-structuralst, so you'll just need to endure giving the author's interpretations."
Yes, but post-stuctruralism is far too common to be ingored.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "But not everyone is post-structuralst, so you'll just need to endure giving the author's interpretations."
Yes, but post-stuctruralism is far too common to be ingored.
I believe that, but the problem is it is a pretty new school of thought. It's only been around for about thirty years.
I figure the AP Test writers might not want to look to something that hasn't stood the test of time.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Thirty years is a very long time for any theory to have lasted in the years since WWII.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
<blink>
Thirty years is a very long time for any theory to have lasted since 1976 too.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I meant that, since 1945, the speed of philosophy, and all things, has become so fast that few schools can claim to have lasted as long as post-structuralism.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I know. I was just yanking your chain.
I like the idea of a "speed of philosophy." Is that measured in ideas per minute?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Paradoxes per parsec.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Reading works published in the 1970s and later is part of the course, but each of these works must be analyzed in a semiotic manner. I don't object to literary semiotics, but nor do I deny the fact post-structuralism is currently a more dominate position, a fact which the A.P. test writers have chosen to ignore.
For those of us who don't know all the fancy words, Post-Structuralism is, according to Wikipedia, the "Death of the Author" theory, in which a reader can interpret writing (or art or whatever) in a manner beyond what the author (or artist) intended.
Therefore a book does not only have one meaning. It can be interpreted in a number of different ways, etc.
Pelegius, if you can't learn to adapt your mind to look at things in different ways, in the ways of others, you will forever find yourself stuck in your mind only, confined to yourself- the exact opposite of the goal of the post-structuralists.
Take the course, do the work.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
The thing is, you can't base a course on Post Structuralism, it's too free-wheelin'. Actually, I guess you COULD, but you'd always be bogged down in class discussions involving opening everyone's eyes to new ideas, and we just don't go for that round these parts
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "But not everyone is post-structuralst, so you'll just need to endure giving the author's interpretations."
Yes, but post-stuctruralism is far too common to be ingored.
I got a five on this test. I didn't know what post-structuralism was. I didn't care (still don't, and I am nearly done with my English degree, though I have had to find out what it is).
You're taking a test at the end of the year designed for 16-17 year olds. Do yourself a favor and follow the KISS method. If you want to play in the sandbox, you have to forget about the ocean for the moment, (not meant to be a patronizing analogy).
Keep It Simple Stupid!
Oh, BTW: have some perspective: "post-structuralism" as we now call it has been around for thousands of years, its just lit jargon, it doesn't really mean that much. You can read all the Derida you want, and it isn't going to change the fact that he has read more philosophy than you have (unless you then read that stuff too). Modern theories exist in modern incarnations, but the people who came before us had all the same basic ideas and arguments long ago. Don't go with the flow if you don't want to, but don't discount the universality of western philosophies- they vary both more and less than we are led to believe.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I had a brilliant teaching assistant in my college writing class. When the idea behind post-structuralism came up he had what I thought later was the only truly reasonable response:
"If the author didn't have an idea to convey, why write it in the first place -- it'll just be crap. If you are going to be an author, you darn well better have an idea you wish to convey to the reader. Whatever else they come away with, they should AT LEAST get that one idea."
Seems like good advice to authors, and probably provides a keen insight for readers as well. If you are so off in your own cloud that you miss the author's central point, but come away with sixteen idiosyncratic ones all your own, can you reall say that you've read and understood the book?
In an environment where you are to be tested on material, it would seem the ONLY fair bits to test everyone on are the ones that the author clearly intended as the central points.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Bob, the test you are describing would be Ap Lit, not Comp.
The AP composition test directs its prompts towards analysis of method, not content or theme. The chances of getting an analysis question based on thematic or plot content, on this test, are very small, and the circumstances would be very specifically tailored so that the question was REALLY asking about writing voice related to theme, or POV, or something other than purely thematic content.
The Lit test is where comprehension of themes and literary movements becomes critical knowledge, but the comp test is geared towards points of authorial voice, literary devices (again, not directly related to theme), pacing, language.
Even an essay which presents a brilliant thematic analysis, but without adressing the prompt (which is likely to be focused on method) is likely to recieve a poor grade. Not to say that analysis and understanding of theme are not important points in the comp exam, but they are certainly not the object of the test- the object is the application and understanding of style in composition.
Oh, one good hint for a good grade on this test: Pick up on the points of style you notice in the prompt essays, and use them in your response. IF you like the way a couple of phrases work with eachother, adapt them into your response somewhere, and it will come to life in an interesting way. Well styled essay responses, which employ the very techniques they expose in the subject, get really good marks on the AP. It shows the readers that you understand the methods you are exposing, and can use them yourself
Edit: Oh and I've said it before, and will say it again: DO NOT write about Hamlet. Its unfair, its callous of me, I lack sensitivity maybe, but writing about Hamlet is just a mistake. Don't do it- just my advice.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Orincoro: unless things have changed in the last few years, the two classes are AP Lang and Comp and AP Lit and Comp, so both could be described as AP Comp.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Dear Pel,
Suck it up.
Do what they want and do well on the exam.
Then major in Science in college. Read books only for fun. Problem solved.
The End.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Orincoro,
I understood the dilemma to be over whether the reader is free to interpret the author in any way he/she likes versus the author having a central idea to discuss.
Isn't that what Pel was talking about with "author's intent" in word choice and stuff like that?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I just wish my highschool had offered AP English of any kind. I know I could have elected to take the test without taking a class first, but that's just not the same.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
Man, I would rant if I had an AP for a comp, too.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Formalism rules!
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"Pelegius, if you can't learn to adapt your mind to look at things in different ways, in the ways of others, you will forever find yourself stuck in your mind only, confined to yourself- the exact opposite of the goal of the post-structuralists."
I just don't like being asked to think a certain way. It is not even that I disagree with the way I am being asked to think (I don't even know if I do) but I resent not being given a choice.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You may resent it, but it's school, Pelegius. Choice isn't really part of the curriculum. You have a whole long life ahead of you to write however you want. At the moment, it's time to play "good student" and do it they way They want.
Who knows? You may learn something different because you're doing it a way you wouldn't ordinarily do.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually, it will come up in many job fields as well.
And I happen to think it is USEFUL to occasionally be forced to "think a certain way."
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Or, y'know, you could study something useful instead.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Orincoro: unless things have changed in the last few years, the two classes are AP Lang and Comp and AP Lit and Comp, so both could be described as AP Comp.
I'm using my inside information then- pel is a rising junior, so its language comp. But I don't think that you're right after all. I don't know. We called them Comp and Lit when I was in HS.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Orincoro,
I understood the dilemma to be over whether the reader is free to interpret the author in any way he/she likes versus the author having a central idea to discuss.
Isn't that what Pel was talking about with "author's intent" in word choice and stuff like that?
Good point. In that case I would still go with a mix of the two approaches, yes. Understanding the authorial intention in a specific passage, and understanding the effect, or the possible reading of that passage are both important.
I think lately in my own writing, I tend to conflate the two ideas by simply examining various "readings" and "complications," of which one may be the intended effect, but not the ultimate one. I do tend to give the author the benefit of the doubt, and generally attribute all effects of the writing to the writer. It doesn't matter though, because in this test you are being asked both questions anyway- authorial intent and actuall effect. How are they different? How are they the same? What surprises are there?
It isn't outside of the realm of possibility for the AP lang test to present the reader with material not written by a writer, but by someone who said or did something slightly notable. A famous example is the Coca Cola vs. Grove Press letters, which appeared on the test in the 90s. They are a hilarious set of business letters between an exec at Coca Cola, and the president of Grove Press (a small firm), in which Coca Cola bullies the smaller company over trademarked advertising slogans. The Grove Press response is absolutely classic. Still, neither the exec nor the President were writers, and the works weren't literature. I seem to remember the prompt being mostly about points of style in a persuasive argument- comparing and contrasting the Coca Cola letter to the Grove Press letter. In this case, authorial intent is NILL compared to actual effects, because they are persuasive letters, and the prompt directs you to read them as persuasive writing.
It's reall all about the prompt. NEVER forget the prompt.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I thought this was going to be about AP Computers.
Damned that it ain't. I can't debate in here, either! Is there no place here where non-political, non-religious, non-literate geeks can debate about *something*?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Being a rising junior doesn't give us much information; by-year curricula are set at the state level or below, and Pel goes to a competitive school. Of course, some of us at public school skipped the rigamarole and enrolled in AP + university courses starting sophomore year .
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I think it's generally language, then lit, junior and senior year. There is no reason to do it any other way, as theses are the only two English tests available. Getting ahead doesn't really make sense when there are only two possible tests, and you're taking one of them as a junior.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Eh, if schools are always that predictable its only due to a lack of imagination. You're right, though, he probably is in Lang and Comp.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:I just don't like being asked to think a certain way.
Think of it as being asked to participate in a debate for a side you don't particularly agree with. It's a great mental exercise and refines your thought processes and analysis techniques by forcing you to look at things in a different way.
The post-structuralists were breaking away from the more author-centered analysis, but they were still well aware of that approach. Your understanding of post-structuralism will improve with greater awareness of the author-centered approach, just as your understanding of authorial intent will improve by forcing yourself to recognize it.
quote:Despite the fact that I like my teacher very much and want the credit, I have though about dropping the course more than once.
I strongly advise you not to drop the course.
Consider this: AP Comp, whether you feel it is or not, is aimed at high-achieving students in the top percentage of their class. Freshman Composition is aimed at all the students who weren't able to "place out" with an AP exam score.
How much more frustrating do you think that college intro composition course will be?
As much as you may chafe at the way your AP Comp class is presented, your perseverance will be worth it if you can avoid freshman introductory composition.
(I am also assuming this is AP: Language and Composition instead of AP: Literature and Composition. The former is usually referred to as AP Comp, while the latter is usually called AP Lit)
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Cow's right. Having the credit can come in really handy. I wouldn't have been required to take freshman English anyway, but most of my friends were. From what they told me, it sucked.
At the same time, if you start thinking that everything is beneath you now, you might have a lot of trouble in college. Or in life, for that matter.
-pH
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I passed the AP Comp test, and was given useless university credits for it. I still had to take freshmen English. All it did was make me a nominal sophomore earlier than otherwise. It was a waste of time and money.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
That was half of my AP courses. I got 25 credits, but I think only 9 of it counted towards anything useful. The rest was fluff credit.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
My 10 AP credits helped me in a number of ways. After overloading my freshman year, I was allowed to change my class standing - which helped in registering for classes, getting housing, and all manner of bureaucracy-navigating ways.
I got out of freshman expository writing and calculus, which let me take classes I wanted to take instead of getting stuck with all core requirements.
Plus, choosing to tutor Expos writing as a senior, I quickly decided I would have clawed my eyes out as a freshman if I'd had to take it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I passed the AP Comp test, and was given useless university credits for it. I still had to take freshmen English. All it did was make me a nominal sophomore earlier than otherwise. It was a waste of time and money.
It also made you a more competitive college applicant... and it isn't any more time consuming than regular coursework- or it isn't for some people.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I was talking about the AP test not the AP class.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
oh well, in that case you wasted your time and your money.
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