Someone pointed out to me recently that they had noticed an increase in profanity, and I have to agree. There are numerous ways to emphasize things in a post without using language that has repeatedly been deemed inappropriate here. And no, changing a letter or two doesn't always make it ok (gosh darnit is still ok, and I make special exceptions for frack and gorram).
If there are honest questions on this, please ask. But please don't ask me to tell you exactly where the line is simply so you can skirt it as closely as possible (or how extreme this is, such as whether or not "zounds" is ok because of its religious origin). And while you may choose to post here what you think your justification is for why it should be ok, it has been requested by the owners of the forum (and agreed to by anyone who has registered) that you refrain, so please do.
Thank you in advance.
--PJ
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Other than for gags, I'm not overly fond of profanity... Although I believe the taboo of it to be a more cultural thing, rather than a religious thing... Though I'm a Christian... But 'bloody' can be relatively harmless in america, in Great Brittian it's deemed as bad as the F word. It's all relative. (And no, I'm not encoraging moral relativism.) But yes, certainly, I try to avoid swearing as much as possible... If I have sworn here, I apologize. :~)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Is "By God" profane?
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Well, 'under god' isn't, though 'above God' is probably sacreligious... 'Around God' is good, By God... Hmmm.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I have a couple of honest questions:
If you make an exception for 'gosh darnit', does that mean that other non-profanities that are obvious replacements for profanities are unacceptable? (ex. "shoot!")
Is it acceptable to use a phrase or word that very commonly includes a profanity, and it is obvious that the profanity is intended when ommitted. (ex. "sonuva!")
Finally, is either "holy carp" or the actual spelling acceptable?
I'm not trying to be difficult. These are honest questions that I ask only to avoid offense in the future, because I do use these commonly and will stop if deemed necessary.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Can we keep the "OMG, my ears can stop bleeding now! Thank you, Papa Moose!" comments down to a low roar if I promise to stop profanin'? I know I'm one of the prime offenders. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, that's my question. Is "OMG" also profane?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Papa Janitor: But please don't ask me to tell you exactly where the line is simply so you can skirt it as closely as possible (or how extreme this is, such as whether or not "zounds" is ok because of its religious origin). --PJ
I had no idea "zounds" had a religious origin. Now I'm going to have to go look it up.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
@^$$#*%^ *&%* &$^#%^!!!!!
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
"zounds" was slang for "God's Wounds".
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I've see alot of people use "WTF?" some go as far as to say, "What the F?"
Is that really any worse then simply typing out the phrase? Most people do it to save time typing rather then a means to sensor their speech.
But I could be wrong, just thought I'd add that question.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
I feel uncomfortable every time I see OMG or WTF <edit>used in a profane context</edit>. Since Hatrack's the only forum I participate in, those TLAs are still tightly coupled in my mind with their respective phrases, and I find the phrases themselves quite offensive.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Now you've got me in all kinds of trouble Papa. I had to go look up the origins of "zounds" and ended up at this interesting site on minced oaths. So now I've got a new list of things to say when I'm POd but don't want to use something currently considered vulgar.
Here is my favorite: Dagnabbit -- which I have already modified to "Dang Rabbit".
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Dagnabbit...the offspring of Dagonee and The Rabbit?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
You've never heard of Dagnabbit? What about Galdernit?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Dagnabbit...the offspring of Dagonee and The Rabbit?
Oh Please No!!!!
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
I figure if you (mainly to Tom since he asked but applying to others in general) mean it as it's written, then it's ok. If you mean "by God" as opposed to "unequivocably," then I'd say it's fine -- I just rarely (if ever) see it used that way. As for OMG (and WTF, for those who mentioned it), I personally consider it profane because of the way it's generally used, but I've been letting it go as long as it's not in a thread title (because I can personally read it as "oh my goodness"). Vonk, yours are ok, though I wouldn't encourage too frequent use.
Again, I'm not going to be sifting through anyone's posts to look for buzzwords -- but some pretty unsoftened scatological/sexual references had popped up recently, and I just don't relish the thought of having to edit them out.
--PJ
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
On a somewhat tangentially related note, the last book I contributed to for White Wolf game studio was for their Werewolf the Forsaken line, which they abbreviated as WtF.
You'd think someone would have flagged that in marketing to say "You know, I don't think 'werewolf the forsaken' will be the first thing in people's minds when they see that acronym".
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"I make special exceptions for frack and gorram..."
Whew!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Thank heavens. My stars, that was close.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
I will edit my use of melons in the bra post. Sorry. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Hey, there is a whole multi-verse of sci-fi/fantasy curse words that would just spruce up the place by demonstrating your broad range of learning. From Shakespeare's "A Pox on you" to Mork's "Shazbot" lets show some originality in our cursing. OK?
Call someone a Muggle if you need to.
I myself love, "Oh, dragon droppings"
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's a good thing none of us are star-worshippers, Katie. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I know. It's almost as if the tweaking in my post was deliberate.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Hey, there is a whole multi-verse of sci-fi/fantasy curse words that would just spruce up the place by demonstrating your broad range of learning. From Shakespeare's "A Pox on you" to Mork's "Shazbot" lets show some originality in our cursing. OK?
Call someone a Muggle if you need to.
I myself love, "Oh, dragon droppings"
Wouldn't that be "Oh, fewmets"? Or am I misremembering my L'Engle?
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
No offense to anyone, but is everyone here surfing the net in math class or something? I thought a lot of us here were beyond the age of gradeschool.
It may not be all that glamorous, but adults do use profanity.
From time to time.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Papa said:
quote: As for OMG (and WTF, for those who mentioned it), I personally consider it profane
I personally dislike WTF because when I read it (in my head) it actually translates to the real three words. And I don't like having those words in my head. So for me, reading the initials isn't any different that reading the actual words. They may as well be there - because that's how its read.
FG
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
A lot of us here are adults who respect the wishes of the site owners, and who enjoy posting in one of the few, very few forums on the entire Internet that remains civil and pleasant to visit.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: A lot of us here are adults who respect the wishes of the site owners, and who enjoy posting in one of the few, very few forums on the entire Internet that remains civil and pleasant to visit.
Hmm. Interesting. To others it just seems like a lot of adults with their heads up their collective ani.
Oh well.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Now I'm going to sound as stupid as when I talk to my wife and son.
"Why you son of a... You dum... rotten mo... farf... GET OUT OF MY FACE!"
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Bill Cosby. Gotta love the classics. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
To others it just seems like a lot of adults with their heads up their collective ani.
Something like this comes up whenever a request for cleaner language is made, and I have to admit I don't understand it. I really don't.
I cuss. I cuss in person, when I write, around my wife, around my friends. And yet I have absolutely no problem expressing my thoughts in places like this or around friends who dislike profanity or around strangers who haven't cussed first. Is it that difficult? Honestly?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
And if it is all that difficult, perhaps improving your vocabulary is in order.
IMO and IME, for some people (and I have a few authors in mind for starters, as well as some people I attended chem labs with in college), using foul language is a sign of a stunted vocabulary.
Creativity is a wonderful thing. Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Ay, I agree with Rivka. An excess use of profanity demonstrates a lack of communicative ability. Just like when, like, one of those like really annoying like people who like use "like" in every, like, sentence, like ya know? . There are always other words to use.
I put forth the words "Shribs" as an alternative curse word. As far as I know, it was created by some friends of mine years ago. I'm sure they wouldn't mind it being used here.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Guess I should keep my coffee cup collection to myself then...
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote: IMO and IME, for some people (and I have a few authors in mind for starters, as well as some people I attended chem labs with in college), using foul language is a sign of a stunted vocabulary.
*shrug* That's not really even remotely true, though. Overuse of expletive can be a symptom of having less intelligence, but using them normally, where they are accurate words for the situation, isn't ignorant. And that's the usage we're talking about here.
That said, I agree with Chris. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Please read Chris' post again. Then read mine, which was in response to his.
Please note my use of modifier.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
no, no, nighthawk, you can share it with me.
Someone in new hampshire has the license plate with the same letters as the mug on the left.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Please read Chris' post again. Then read mine, which was in response to his.
Please note my use of modifier.
Yeah, I read them. And I still agree with Chris and not yours.
We should be able to curb our swearing when around friends we know to be uncomfortable with it.
I still don't agree that use of profanity, no matter how many IMO, IME, and "for some people"s you put in, is a sign of ignorance--not here at Hatrack. If anything, it's a sign of politeness or lack thereof.
Sorry, the whole "swearing is a sign of a stunted vocabulary" just grates on me. Sometimes, expletives are just the best word for the job, and I can't remember anyone in my Hatrack career overusing them to the point of being perceived as ignorant.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Perhaps you should reread Rivka's post and apply the initial conditional ("And if it is all that difficult...") to the "some people."
In other words, if the removal of expletives causes one to be unable to express one's thoughts, then it is a sign...
Oh, and Rabbit, I love you to.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I have, and I still contend that it's a politeness and sensitivity issue rather than an intelligence one. You're free to disagree.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You mean, people have difficulty expressing thoughts without profanity because they are impolite or insensitive, as opposed to choosing not to do so because they are impolite or insensitive?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I think caring what other people are comfortable with is varying degrees of difficult depending on who you are. I doubt there's a person on this forum who couldn't replace an expletive with a more acceptable word if they had to. It's NOT that difficult. You just have to give a rat's...butt.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't really swear, but I'm bothered by rather "innocent" words compared to the big ones being censored...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Hmm. Interesting. To others it just seems like a lot of adults with their heads up their collective ani.
Oh well.
Those others are welcome to construct their own community at their pleasure, of course.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
Well, like someone in my Transformers thread so eloquently said:
"I'm enjoying myself here. I'll stay right where I am."
Boobs crap boobs. Hell damn fart.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You're very daring, PUNJABEE. Very daring indeed Such a rebel, you are.
I note you don't go into some of the other things said in that thread. No surprise there.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I've decided that from now on in someone is pretentious enough to use a Latin plural, I'm going to call them on failing to decline the noun properly. Consider yourself called, whoever done it. [edit] nevermind[/edit]
[ October 11, 2006, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
As a wise person once said, "I thought a lot of us here were beyond the age of gradeschool."
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ooooh, I'm quoted. How flattering. Well, slightly misquoted, but the intent is there.
I disagree that the situations are analogous, of course, for the simple reason that since the Cards pay the bills they get to set the rules. You agreed to the rules when you agreed to the Terms of Service, otherwise you wouldn't have an account here. So enjoy whining about it!
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
It's way late - 'cause I'm on the road for work and just got to my comp - but... I'll venture out there to say that I swear, cuss, say bad words in real person. I do it with my friends, I do it with work folk, I even do it around family. That said - I really enjoy coming here and just stepping back from it all for a while.
I like the way this forum is with minimal 'bad words' and I really do notice when they come out. I mean, makes me read the sentence twice.
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be flagged at all times, I'm just saying that personally I like when people come up with some more descriptive, non-common words to convey the way they're feeling, what they're going through, how they feel about a person than the same old, over-used words.
That's all I've got...
*oh! and fart-eater remains my favorite*
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
I don't really have time for forums these days, but hatrack is still definitely a buoy in a dark sticky sea.
I had to research window tint for the comic store i work at, and was directed to a help forum about all things window and tinting. Window tinting, people. I was expecting DIY network meets industrial geek. I got TLR meets bar bathroom wall.
Sad little adults. Sad little tinted windows.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I like my brother's swear words when he's upset:
"Curses and Foul Language!"
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
quote:Originally posted by PUNJABEE: No offense to anyone, but is everyone here surfing the net in math class or something? I thought a lot of us here were beyond the age of gradeschool.
It may not be all that glamorous, but adults do use profanity.
From time to time.
You do need to keep in mind, however, that "a lot of us here" is not all of us here. I'm not in gradeschool, as your example points out, but I am still a kid. And I'm not the only kid.
Granted, profanity doesn't really bother me. I hear far worse every day at school. Still, the point that I'm trying to make is that your point that "Oh no! We're all in grade school! BAD WORDS!", while in jest, isn't all that far from the truth. There are at least half a dozen minors who actively post on this forum, and potentially many more who lurk for each member who posts.
Also, your comment that "Boobs crap boobs. Hell damn fart." provides a nice illustration that there are in fact people here that lack the maturity to handle profanity.
Also, you mis-conjugated the verb "damn". It should be "damns", since Hell isn't plural. Fart should probably be pluralized as well. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
And really, whether or not there are actual kids here and how mature they are is not the point. The point is that we didn't make the website, we just use it. As parents everywhere say, "My house, my rules." The Cards' website, their rules. We all agreed to the rules when we signed up; if we can't follow the rules, we should refrain from posting or be prepared to be barred from posting.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: I like my brother's swear words when he's upset:
"Curses and Foul Language!"
Genius! Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
PUNJABEE,
Maybe this will help sort things out.
1) As ElJay (and others) have pointed out, playing by the Card's rules is part of the agreement you (and all of us made) when we joined.
2) The site is intended to be "friendly" to any of Card's fans. Because at least some of his works deliberately have been written and marketed to pre-teen and young teen audiences there are a fair number of such people who come here. Precocious though they may be, I personally would not want to be the one instructing them on swear word usage -- even proper swear word usage.
3) Among the adults here, there are some who (for a variety of reasons) find some, most or even all of the common swear words offensive. And not just mildly offensive, but horribly so. Granted, there may not be many of those people, but if the aim here is discussion, it seems incredibly hostile to ignore their feelings entirely -- even to the extent of using swear words "appropriately." I mean, if you found out that a particular word was a particular slur hateful to Jews, would you continue to use it and insist on it being harmless, despite the fact that you are posting on a site frequented by several Jews? What about a word you learn is hateful to Mormons (oops, I mean members of the Church of Latter Day Saints)? It really does come down to a question of manners and how you wish to be perceived.
4) Notice how people here have reacted to you. You have essentially said that a number of us are suffering from cranial/colonic insertion (see, creativity can be fun) and yet not a single put-down, not a single "shut up," and no swear words back at you. So far anyway. I submit that it isn't because the rest of us are better than you -- I can't really gauge that -- but that the rest of us have decided that we LIKE and RESPECT the rules we collectively live under here at Hatrack.
In other words...it's not just the initial wishes of the Cards', but the entire community of real people built up around the framework they provided.
Hatrack works because the community does what its members agree is best.
Now...you have a choice.
You can be considered part of the community, or you can brand yourself an outsider. Either way, obviously, we'll still treat you with respect. But on the one hand, you can help to build and maintain something that many find value in. On the other hand, you can be the "rebel" hoping to shake the trees. Maybe conformity is just too boring and awful a fate for you right now. Hey...I've been there. In which case, depending on how far you decide to go, you'll either be the annoying nit who everyone tries hard to help into a better posting style, or you'll be one of the people who the Card's reluctantly had to ban from the site.
It's really pretty predictable. I hope you'll choose wisely.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Bob speaks for me.
Hail, Bob.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Funny: You do need to keep in mind, however, that "a lot of us here" is not all of us here. I'm not in gradeschool, as your example points out, but I am still a kid. And I'm not the only kid.
Granted, profanity doesn't really bother me. I hear far worse every day at school. Still, the point that I'm trying to make is that your point that "Oh no! We're all in grade school! BAD WORDS!", while in jest, isn't all that far from the truth. There are at least half a dozen minors who actively post on this forum, and potentially many more who lurk for each member who posts.
Also, your comment that "Boobs crap boobs. Hell damn fart." provides a nice illustration that there are in fact people here that lack the maturity to handle profanity.
Also, you mis-conjugated the verb "damn". It should be "damns", since Hell isn't plural. Fart should probably be pluralized as well.
"boobs crap boobs, hell damn fart" is a Simpsons quote, nimrod.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
And yet even those of us who knew that didn't leap to your defense, perhaps because we didn't consider that factoid relevant to any estimate of maturity.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Bob.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
The Bobness is strong with that one.
Posted by Andrew W (Member # 4172) on :
quote:But 'bloody' can be relatively harmless in america, in Great Brittian it's deemed as bad as the F word
Really? Who told you that one? I bet they're laughing now. That might have been the case in the distant (or so) past, or in some small communities, but I assure you, it's not widely the case. Also, that's terrible spelling. Terrible. Terrible.
quote:2) The site is intended to be "friendly" to any of Card's fans. Because at least some of his works deliberately have been written and marketed to pre-teen and young teen audiences there are a fair number of such people who come here. Precocious though they may be, I personally would not want to be the one instructing them on swear word usage -- even proper swear word usage.
While you might be dead on with resepect to PUNJABEE, I've always wondered about this sort of thing. Where is this mystical land where children haven't already compiled a nice large list of swearwords by approximately 8. Or if you're a bit slow, then say 13 at the outside? Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant. It's pretty much a fact of life. This doesn't neccessarily apply to the homeschooled of course. (Or the "deprived of a proper school social environment" as I prefer to know them.)
p.s. If you are unable to find ways to express yourself without swearing, then you do have a limited vocabulary. There's plenty of replacements for every rude word. They might not be as apt, but they're certainly there. And this comes from someone with a style of speech that would not make it past any censor.
AW
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: And yet even those of us who knew that didn't leap to your defense, perhaps because we didn't consider that factoid relevant to any estimate of maturity.
I suppose at this point you expect me to say that I was hoping some people would let little jimmy spanksalot know it was a Simpsons quote.
I wasn't.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant. It's pretty much a fact of life.
It isn't. I heard it all my life, but I can remember the first time I ever swore. I was sixteen, and I said "hell." I was horrified at myself and didn't swear again for years.
I'm not alone in this.
Posted by PUNJABEE (Member # 7359) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It isn't. I heard it all my life, but I can remember the first time I ever swore. I was sixteen, and I said "hell." I was horrified at myself and didn't swear again for years.
I'm not alone in this.
Sorry but I call BS on that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Do you think I'm lying? *amazed*
I'm not. I remember it distinctly. My mother never swore, and when my dad did on occasion we all called him on it.
Open up your mind, kid. There's more to the world than you know.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Andrew W: Where is this mystical land where children haven't already compiled a nice large list of swearwords by approximately 8. Or if you're a bit slow, then say 13 at the outside?
My house. And my parents' house. And that of many, many people I know.
All of whom, like Katie's parents (I assume), refrained from swearing in front of their kids, and didn't allow swearing in their home.
And I know that I am not alone in this. There are many on this forum with homes that are like mine in this regard. We live in this world where swearing is "pretty much a fact of life" to so many, so we know the words. We simply choose not to use them (at least not without EXTREME provocation).
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:While you might be dead on with resepect to PUNJABEE, I've always wondered about this sort of thing. Where is this mystical land where children haven't already compiled a nice large list of swearwords by approximately 8. Or if you're a bit slow, then say 13 at the outside? Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant. It's pretty much a fact of life. This doesn't neccessarily apply to the homeschooled of course. (Or the "deprived of a proper school social environment" as I prefer to know them.)
I hadn't by age 8, and I was never homeschooled. So this mystical land might be called 'my childhood' of just 10-15 years ago, where I didn't swear before I knew what it meant and I didn't use profanity frequently as a child.
It also puts into a better perspective your arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the homeschooled. I was not near as controlled about it as Katharina, but not on your extreme of the spectrum either. Her end of the spectrum is, in my experience, pretty extreme too...but then, she does not seem as casually dismissive and head-in-the-sand about hers as you do about yours.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Katharina has vastly more credibility on this subject than you do, PUNJABEE. Your call of BS isn't worth very much.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I'm another one of the liars. I grew up around a fair amount of cussing (my dad and his dad were sailors after all ), but was taught from an early age [EDIT: not] to use it or be prepared for some punishment. Similarly, my parents rarely swore at me or my siblings, though the arguments they had at times! I'm sure at a young age I asked what they meant and was told not to repeat them, of course, but I can't remember.
It wasn't until high school, maybe sophomore year, that I started swearing (though I don't think I ever took the Lord's name in vain), and I over-compensated, being the teen that I was. Over time, however, I have fallen back on PG swears ("Geezum Crow"s and "Gosh darnit"s... Really). I don't have a huge problem with people I know swearing, but they just don't come to me, I have to really conciously decide to do it.
It actually is possible to hear swear words, even understand them, without using them.
-Bok
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:All of whom, like Katie's parents (I assume), refrained from swearing in front of their kids, and didn't allow swearing in their home.
Are you saying my mother might have sworn when I wasn't in earshot? *insert blown-away smiley*
I know it's hilarious, but that possibility has never occurred to me before. I really don't think she did. Surely there would have been some evidence of it, and my (non-Mormon) aunts don't swear at all either.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I wasn't homeschooled, nor was I raised in particularly religious family. I went to public school all the way up. I didn't swear much at all until around the time I started driving, and certainly not by the age of 8. I knew what the words were; I just didn't use them. So, add me to the list of folks who lived in that "mystical land." As for the kids that "love to swear," in my (admittedly limited) experience, they seem to be kids whose parents swear quite a bit in front of them with little or no restraint. Moreover, and please, who's around kids on a regular basis, correct me if I'm wrong, but they seem mostly to be boys.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Um, I was allowing for the possibility, not intending to imply that it was so. My mom doesn't swear either. My dad does only rarely. I wouldn't presume to know what other people's parents do!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, I'm not offended. I don't think she did, but I was amused by my initial shock. It's like when you're a kid and you see a teacher at the grocery store.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I never heard a woman cuss until I moved to NYC for college at 18. My uncles and cousins did cuss, but almost never when there were ladies present. I was taught that it is vulgar and unacceptable in polite society. I can count on my fingers the times I've cussed and I've never said the big 3. I've never had a problem expressing anger or frustration. I also don't allow it in my house or around my child.
I also worked with children for years, both in a classroom setting and in after-school programs. I never heard a child use any cuss word but the "h" word and we made sure that was the first and last time they said it in front of us.
I do use exclamations when I'm startled or upset. Mostly "Golly day" or "Goodness gracious" or "Fiddlesticks." This was a great source of amusement for my college friends.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*laugh* (in response to Katie -- this thread moves too fast)
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Not that this has anything to do with the current conversation, but after a very poorly thrown dart game last night I realized that I am very capable, and very guilty, of using every horrible explitive I can come up with upwards of a couple dozen times in a half hour period.
Does this kind of thing shock and/or offend the average bystander? Does it shock and/or offend you when you encounter it?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I seldom use the extreme words unless i am on 42nd street lunging heavy luggage about or unless I am really enraged, and seldom at a person. However, "hell and damnation" which I read in Hunchback of Norte Dame is only one of my favourite expressions ever. I have other expressions i will put into the mouths of characters because they just sound cool in a way. Also they use the F word a lot in the Sopranos. Like once in every sentence. Overuse of the F word can be annoying, but now i am listening to a lot of HEAVY METAL and when do they ever NOT say the F word in heavy metal? I wonder if I became a heavy metal musician if I'd have to use the f word all the time... Sometimes use of the F word bothers me. I remember a highschool teacher put it on the chalk board one time and after class I went out of my way to erase it.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
PUN uses swear words, and so he feels everyone must. His world includes swear words as part of its every day routine, and he expects everyone else to live in that same world. He neglects or ignores the portion of the population that doesn't agree with him, or perhaps he just can't step outside himself enough to see things from outside his own narrow perspective.
That is to his detriment.
Unfortunately, many times when he opens his mouth it is to our detriment as well.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
My father is one of the most civilized and down to Earth people I know. Under normal circumstances, he would never swear or say anything bad in that sense.
But sit him down in front of a Barcelona/Madrid soccer game and he turns in to somebody else.
My wife is the same way. Calm, collected, tranquil... but get her riled up and she says things that make me blush.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I've only said the s-word twice, both times when I was a teenager. (After backing into a parked car)
That's about as far as I've gone, in terms of swearing.
I didn't even use the word 'fart' until I was 21 or so...
It's interesting how people react to me and my non-swearing ways. When I started at my new job, I never said how swearing made me uncomfortable. Within a couple weeks, people had stopped swearing around me, or started apologizing to me when they did.
Odd. I wonder if I could use this power for...awesome?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
We are shielded from your mighty powers of courtesy by your apathy. Hooray!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Is it bad for me to use the word "hell?" I like that word... and bloody as well. And also ruddy.... and Pox.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I've never noticed that you have to specify whether or not cursing makes you uncomfortable. I restrain myself around certain people, both personally and professionally, and I've never been instructed to do so by any of them.
You just pick up on what makes people uncomfortable and what standards they use, and then adapt to that.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Something that has been alluded to here, but not spelled out, is that any minors that participate here do so under permission of their parents (according to my understanding). If parents are willing to let their children on Hatrack because they feel comfortable with the TOS, then violating the rules makes this site into a place that parents may not have approved of.
This makes comment about 8 year olds compiling a list of swear words irrelevant. The child can know every swear word in the book, yet if the parents choose to make their home a place where that is not allowed, then they won't be using or listening to those words at home.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I wonder if part of the reason ScottR doesn't swear is that apathy?
I mean, because of general easy-going-ness. I have never heard Matt swear, but I've also never heard him fake-swear. It takes a hurricane to get him even ruffled. I don't think he'd swear even under duress, but it might be easier for him not to because he's mellow enough he's almost never under duress.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Put me on the list of people who didn't swear until they were an adult.
Also, I learned a new dirty word the other day, something it would never have occured to me meant something dirty. I don't want to make discoveries like that on hatrack.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Also, I learned a new dirty word the other day, something it would never have occured to me meant something dirty. I don't want to make discoveries like that on hatrack.
It amazes me the words that are quite common and no one gets offended by that have some incredibly vulgar definitions. And then there's the words that have very harmless definitions that people get very upset by. I guess it's not about what the word means, in and of itself, it's the importance, or power, that society has given them that matters.
I completely respect a person's wish to not have swearing prevelant in their home, office or website, but if I'm in public, or in my own home, I don't think I'm gonna let societies (IMO) off-base connotations keep me from using perfectly good words.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
When I was in middle school, I was one of the few people who didn't swear. Some of my friends tried very very hard to get me to swear and I refused. I think that was partially because they were trying so hard and partially because of the way I was raised - no swearing ever, etc. We weren't even allowed to say "Shut up."
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk:
quote:Also, I learned a new dirty word the other day, something it would never have occured to me meant something dirty. I don't want to make discoveries like that on hatrack.
It amazes me the words that are quite common and no one gets offended by that have some incredibly vulgar definitions. And then there's the words that have very harmless definitions that people get very upset by. I guess it's not about what the word means, in and of itself, it's the importance, or power, that society has given them that matters.
I agree. I said something very innocent (misread the title of a children's book) and all of a sudden everyone is staring at me and snickering.
And I'm NOT sheltered. I'll use words my most vulgar guy friends won't use. But I didn't know this one.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Now I'm really curious.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Emailed you.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I didn't start cussing until grad school and even then, not often. I am in Texas and there is a store I frequently shop at that does not allow cussing and the owner will kick people out over it. He wants families to shop there and finds that important. He will enforce that rule even when everyone present is an adult because he wants it to be habit. Some people do complain and he doesn't care. The owner is not religious in any way and there is nothing religious about his store.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
About the "swearing is only for adults" issue: I didn't have a profane vocabulary at 8, but in middle school I rode the bus and EVERYONE swore. I had been taught better, but for a few weeks I took it up to "fit in". After a bit I decided it was ridiculous of me to change my standards for them, and stopped. So for me, when I hear adults who STILL pepper their everyday language with profanity, I consider them immature and wish they'd grow up and learn how to behave in polite society.
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Not that this has anything to do with the current conversation, but after a very poorly thrown dart game last night I realized that I am very capable, and very guilty, of using every horrible explitive I can come up with upwards of a couple dozen times in a half hour period.
Does this kind of thing shock and/or offend the average bystander? Does it shock and/or offend you when you encounter it?
I don't know if I'm average, but yeah, I'd be annoyed. I was in a changing room at the mall the other day with my two preschoolers, and one woman down the way was talking to her friend using a lot of profanity. The friend told her she'd better tone down her language because there were children present. The woman said, "So? I swear around my own kids. Why should I care about anyone else's?"
It was SO hard not to just ... go postal. It wasn't even the profanity so much as the blatant disregard and inconsideration for anyone else, especially when it had been brought to her attention. But I'm not the type to confront - and I had my kids with me - so I TRIED to ignore it. Managed to walk by without giving her a dirty look.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: So for me, when I hear adults who STILL pepper their everyday language with profanity, I consider them immature and wish they'd grow up and learn how to behave in polite society.
This is exactly how I feel.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I've never noticed that you have to specify whether or not cursing makes you uncomfortable. I restrain myself around certain people, both personally and professionally, and I've never been instructed to do so by any of them.
You just pick up on what makes people uncomfortable and what standards they use, and then adapt to that.
Exactly. My co-workers and I swear sometimes when speaking to each other, but rarely inside the office. I don't swear if I know there are children about, even if I hurt myself and have to quickly recover...which sounds something like, "F-OW!"
I never even started using the word "butt" until high school, I don't think. Nowadays...sometimes I curse, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I do it casually, sometimes only when I stub my toe or something.
-pH
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:So for me, when I hear adults who STILL pepper their everyday language with profanity, I consider them immature and wish they'd grow up and learn how to behave in polite society.
That makes sense. If you hear a complete stranger use a curse word it must mean you are better than them. [/sarcasm]
It really does grate on my nerves when people make these blanket assumptions about total strangers. I don't think you can draw an accurate correlation between you feeling that you had to curse to fit in in middle school and the mental capabilities of an adult you've never met.
It's just diction. Some people use different words to say different things. The word isn't wrong or bad, it doesn't hurt anyone. I respect that you don't want it said around your children, and I would venture that it is generally rude to do anything around a person's kids when they have asked you not to. But to say that people that use different diction than you, or were raised by parents who use different diction are in any way lacking as a person is, well, a little bit small minded.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Yep, I figured it'd be offensive to somebody when I made mention that their behavior was offensive.
Actually, if I hear a complete stranger use a curse word I don't think much about it other than to wince. It's the people I spend time around on a daily basis and hear using profanity as a regular part of their everyday language that I was talking about ... and yes, I do wish those people would learn when and where those things are appropriate and when they're not.
I had a boss who swore at work every day for every little thing. Either he had never been taught that swearing is offensive and is not appropriate everywhere, or he had chosen to ignore the teaching as unimportant. Either way, I think it's time for him to grow up.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
It wasn't that you said it was offensive. You said that it was indicitive of immmaturity and a need to grow up. I don't mind being called offensive. I'm sure everything I do is offensive to someone. Heck, talking to a female that I don't know is probably offensive to a few hundred thousand people. Heck, saying 'heck' is probably offensive to someone.
But I do agree with you that there is a time and place to use curse words. When I'm out at a bar with my friends, I have no qualms with breaking out the diry words. When I'm at work, school or church, I try to refrain. When in a general public place, like shopping center or a restaurant, I will keep them few and far between and at a reasonable level, but I don't feel like I have any obligations to anyone.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Fie! Opprobrium! Garrulous fates!
I did everything by the books, too: no utterance of a colorful word or turn of phrase until I had heard someone else write it on the forum, and now I tune in to find a resurgent polemic on profanity as immaturity. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
You're right, Vonk, I did say they were immature. Immaturity has nothing to do with "mental capabilities", though. It has to do with experience, with being able to see how things look from someone else's perspective and caring about that. And it may be immature of me to automatically equate excessive profanity with immaturity. But I do. Because I assume ("assuming", that's me being immature again) that either they don't know better, which denotes a lack of learning and therefore a lack of maturity, or they do know better and don't care, which also denotes immaturity.
Lack of consideration for others denotes immaturity, to me, because in my experience my consideration for helping others be comfortable around me has grown as I have grown. And I still have a long way to go.
All this is just by way of explaining why I don't see swearing as an "adult" thing that shouldn't be done around minors but is okay among adults. I see it more as something to be grown out of.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Because I assume ("assuming", that's me being immature again) that either they don't know better, which denotes a lack of learning and therefore a lack of maturity, or they do know better and don't care, which also denotes immaturity.
In my experience, as lacking as it may be, these are not the only options.
Edit: And I don't think I know what you mean by "know better". Better than what? Has it been established that cursing is inherently bad somewhere and I just missed it? I understand some people don't like curse words, adn I respect that, but I've yet to see it blanketed as bad and something that people should "know better" than to do. Or is this yet another case of different = bad?
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Enlighten me.
Edit to respond to your edit: By "know better" I mean that everyone who uses those words knows that they're considered not "polite" and that it is not polite to use them in many situations, and that many people are offended by them, and yet they choose to use them anyway (or at least don't bother to censor themselves at all).
There's no use pretending that this is just a matter of word choice, and that choosing to use profane words instead of others, is as innocuous as choosing to use "will" instead of "shall".
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Because it is the best word for the situation.
Because it conveys an accurate emotion.
Because it rhymes with another word and that is just the only one that'll make your poem work.
Because it completes the pun and makes your friends laugh.
Because there aren't that many words that mean "female dog."
Because sometimes it's the only word that will cause people to pay attention when there is a very hectic situation.
Because it is an incredibly effective way to parody certain people or attitudes.
The list can go on and on. They are just words. There are the same reasons to use them as any other word.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Edit to respond to your edit: By "know better" I mean that everyone who uses those words knows that they're considered not "polite" and that it is not polite to use them in many situations, and that many people are offended by them, and yet they choose to use them anyway (or at least don't bother to censor themselves at all).
There's no use pretending that this is just a matter of word choice, and that choosing to use profane words instead of others, is as innocuous as choosing to use "will" instead of "shall".
Okay, I think I see where I'm not understanding you. When I justify cursing, I am justifying it in situations where no one will get offended, when I am hanging out with friends, or in the presence of people that I know are not offended. I have agreed time and time again that there are many situations where one should not curse, including in front of anyone who you haven't heard curse before. But to say that all cursing, regardless of context of audience is immature, is, IMO, incorrect.
I am a little dumbfounded that a person can be completely respectful and reiterate their appreciation of your attitude multiple times, and even agree with you on several points, but the only thing they can be is immature. ::shrug::
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Lack of consideration for others denotes immaturity, to me...
Ah. See, I think the word for that is "inconsiderate," which means something else.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
What Tom said.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think "immature" is almost kinder. It implies that all that needs to have is some maturation. "Inconsiderate" implies selfishness, which is a much more negative judgement.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think "immature" sounds like the person giving the label is trying to feel superior because the other is childish. Mature adults can still be inconsiderate.
-pH
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I don't think either are particularly accurate, but 'inconsiderate' is probably closer, in that a mature adult can be pushed to the point where they are inconsiderate, but normally are not.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Are you saying that mature adults only swear under duress?
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Okay, I have to say, it's starting to sound like grade school.
"You are *so* Immature." "No, you're immature!" "Stinky-head!"
From now on, can we please consider 'maturity' and all forms of the word a swear word. It would be a refreshing change.
As for 'OMG', I do use that frequently, but never as 'Oh my God'... Oh my Goodness, or gosh is more along the lines of my meaning.
I'm a firm believer in swearing not being a problem, *As long as it doesn't offend anyone*. I put others feelings about swearing before my own, and it's important to consider others' feelings, and I'm extremely sorry about any swearing I've done.
I would like Not to make this a swan song But 'la la la'. I saw others swearing and thought it was acceptable. Again, I'm sorry, and I'll try to avoid it.
But even now, we're not along with the topic. PJ seemed to be cutting off at the swearing becomeing worse. When it comes to behavior, we are always moving one way or the other, so even though 'OMG' may not be terrible, without somebody saying 'please don't say that' we'll end up with WTF's and more swearing. It wasn't meant to debate swearing (If I may be so presumpteous as to speak for PJ), it was meant to ask you to cut back on the swearing, and the lewd phrases.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
We'll derail the conversation as we see fit, n00b. Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Are you saying that mature adults only swear under duress?
No, that's why I said I didn't think either were particularly correct, but if I had to pick one, it would be inconsiderate, not immature. But that's an "if I believed A, I would believe B as a result, not C" type of situation. So, I don't believe A, so neither B or C are correct.
Edit: IMO
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:But to say that all cursing, regardless of context of audience is immature, is, IMO, incorrect.
Did I say this?
quote:I am a little dumbfounded that a person can be completely respectful and reiterate their appreciation of your attitude multiple times, and even agree with you on several points, but the only thing they can be is immature.
Ah, but I don't see where I said either of those. In my first post I said I considered adults who pepper their everyday language with profanity to be immature. In subsequent posts I clarified that I was referring to "people who use profanity as a regular part of their everyday language". Let me further clarify that I'm talking about people like my former boss who swore all the time, every day, regardless of place or audience, when we couldn't get away from him. That does denote inconsideration, which to me is a sign of immaturity.
I never said that people who use profanity sometimes and refrain from it when appropriate are immature. I guess because I didn't specifically address the part of your (vonk's) post where you said you agreed with me about "time and place", it was easy to assume I was disagreeing with you or calling you immature. If you feel no need to censor your language at work or around people who are uncomfortable with it, you come across as immature, to me. If that doesn't fit you, I'm not talking about you.
I had a little time to think about this as I shuttled my kids around and I think the reason it seems "immature" to me is because being inconsiderate and ignoring the fact that profanity does offend people and is inappropriate in many places is very self-centered, and I equate being self-centered with immaturity. Like how we're all self-centered when we're young, and as we grow and mature, we become better able to see things from other people's point of view. Although being a certain age does not necessarily bring maturity. If an adult is being inconsiderate, they have room to mature.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Personally, I disagree that immature is kinder. I would say it's much more condescending. I don't consider that kind.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Well then, I suppose we have a sort of consensus. Though this...
quote:All this is just by way of explaining why I don't see swearing as an "adult" thing that shouldn't be done around minors but is okay among adults. I see it more as something to be grown out of.
... did strike me as saying that no adult should ever curse, and the other comments combined with that meant that any adult who curses is immature. If I misread, or misinterpretted your meaning, I apologize.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Some people are morally opposed to colored hair (I don't just mean outrageously colored...I mean ALL colored hair). Does that mean that dyeing your hair and going out in public is immature? Maybe it's inconsiderate to the people who find it offensive...but I don't think it's immature to feel you don't need to cater to everyone's sensabilities. Some people are offended by women wearing pants. I don't think that women who wear pants in public are immature.
-pH
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
and what she said.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:Personally, I disagree that immature is kinder. I would say it's much more condescending. I don't consider that kind.
I have to admit, when I hear people like that woman in the dressing room who said she did not care who she offended, "immature" is as kind a word as I can possibly come up with ... and I'm not using it to be kind. It's more like, "Oh, grow up!" When I feel the need to use it, it is not as a compliment.
But I generally only feel the need to use it when someone who is OLD ENOUGH TO BE EXPECTED TO KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE just obviously does not care about anyone but themselves.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:But I generally only feel the need to use it when someone who is OLD ENOUGH TO BE EXPECTED TO KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE just obviously does not care about anyone but themselves.
I suppose it depends on who's doing the expecting. You expect people to "grow out of" swearing. Some people expect others to stop being so oversensitive to mere words.
*shrug*
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Jenna, I was disagreeing that immature is kinder than inconsiderate, not responding to your post. Which doesn't really matter, just letting you know that I started typing that before I saw what you had written. I agree that there are places that profanity is more appropriate or less appropriate. In a bar, where you can reasonably expect that there are no children around, I think it's fine. In other public places, it depends both on how crowded it is, how formal it is, how loud you are, and if there are obviously children around. I wouldn't swear at the top of my lungs at a zoo. The woman in the dressing room was certainly uncouth. But there are other places where your "expectations" of how others should behave would be viewed by the majority as immature.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:You expect people to "grow out of" swearing. Some people expect others to stop being so oversensitive to mere words.
I would hope people would grow out of swearing because I realized it was wrong for me and I grew out of it. That's probably nearsighted on my part, taking my experience and projecting it onto the world. Although of course that's all any of us ever do, until we're shown another perspective.
But really what I want people to grow out of is inconsideration of others, just not caring how our actions affect other people - even if they are strangers. I care about how loud my kids get in the library because I care that it bothers other people - complete strangers. I care about showering before I go out because I don't want to offend others. I care about the things I say because I don't want them to be taken the wrong way and inadvertently hurt others. And I would hope others also grow to care about the people around them too.
Most people here have said they know there's a time and place for swearing and that they don't do it at work or church or around people who are uncomfortable with it. Why is that? Because most people here do have consideration for others, and do recognize that "mere words" are very powerful. In fact I would say that perhaps here more than many places, we recognize the power of words.
EDIT: I typed this before I saw Eljay's response.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Jenna, I'm sure there are people in the world who think that you should stop wearing pants (I'm assuming you have from time to time) and thus dress like a "lady."
-pH
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Most people here have said they know there's a time and place for swearing and that they don't do it at work or church or around people who are uncomfortable with it. Why is that? Because most people here do have consideration for others, and do recognize that "mere words" are very powerful. In fact I would say that perhaps here more than many places, we recognize the power of words.
I agree totally. But in places where there are fewer people who take offense to swearing, doing so is definitely not a sign of ignorance, immaturity, or a need to "grow out of" anything.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Not that I'm looking to call anyone names, but what do you call it when someone swears at IN-appropriate times, or in contexts where they should know not to? I mean, assuming it's not the result of a physiological condition (like Turret's syndrome), the question arises of what a person who does this consciously is trying to accomplish.
IME, the person is either trying to be an iconoclast or trying to show how mature they are. Sometimes it works out and others "get it." Most of the time, however, I think they just come off as rude (at a minimum), immature and socially inept. And, sadly for them, the judgement will stick even if they had some high-minded intention to their word choices.
Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
What I'm trying to say is this: Whether or not a person swears out of a lack of intellect or maturiry, or for some other purpose, it seems like if their "message" in swearing is going to be interpreted negatively in a situation, then they have either misjudged the situation (and their audience) or they've decided that they don't really care about the people in the audience (or both).
In general, I think swearing is fine and dandy if one is already sure of the positive reaction of the audience, but...for most of the situations I find myself in, that'd be taking a risk of exactly the kinds of judgement we seem to be arguing over. And, for purposes of my own, I prefer walking a path that doesn't involve exposing myself unknowingly to the ill-judgements of others.
I also think it's important to choose one's battles. There certainly are times and places where being offensive to the sensibilities of others is important. For me, the freedom to use swear words in public settings is just not a battle I care to fight. It seems like something I would dislike if I won the prize. Because for all the "good" judicious swearing I might do, I'd probably be exposed to a lot more inappropriate, boring and dreadfully offensiving swearing from others who don't draw the line of reasonableness anywhere near where I would.
In short -- the idea that "people should learn to not take offense at mere words" is great in theory, but not a battle worth my time or energy.
And especially since it's a battle that would be conditional anyway.
Also,
I have yet to hear a swear word used AS a swear word that actually retained the precision of speech that other, more appropriate words would've lent to the utterance. The F-bomb seems like the architypical example of this. I mean, really, if the precise meaning of that word in it's original is appropriate in even 1/100th of the cases in which it is commonly used, I think we have a lot more problems with human sexuality than Kinsey ever dreamed of.
So, far from being le mot juste, I think most of the time people utter swear words as if they had lost conscious control of their utterances and it becomes more like a verbal tic, or gap filler, at best -- a noise devoid of meaning, rather than the one best word for expressing a thought or idea.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
One of the best classes (that is class as in one event, not the whole course) I ever had was in the middle of the course, when my school-marmish english 101 teacher came in and started swearing a blue streak.
The swear words were clearly part of the lesson plan, and it was very well developed. Her argument is that words only have value if they are used appropriately, and in the case of swear words, over-use takes away their power.
We need swear words for extreme situations when we need to make our audience aware of the severity of the emotion behind our words. She had never sworn in class before that day, and she never swore in class again, but on that day, we knew she meant business. Nobody laughed or added their own "colorful metaphors" to her lesson. By the power of hearing her swear, we knew that there was to be no game playing in class that day.
And I'm sure that that lesson stuck with every student that day. But it wouldn't have if we had ever heard her swear without such purpose.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
Um, no? Or at least, not necessarily.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Bob pluralized with an apostrophe and rivka didn't swear at him.
Wow, Hatrack is civilized. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I do swear in inappropriate situations. It's something I'm not proud of, and I'm working very hard to stop, but things often just pop out before I realize it.
I'm not posting this to try to defend myself. I got the impression from Bob's thread that he assumed people who swore in inappropriate situations did so conciously. In my experience, for most people that's not the case. I think most people just don't realize they're swearing, or swear without thinking. Obviously in the case of the woman in the dressing room, she was just being rude. But with most people it just comes out without thinking.
I know I've sworn in front of my very young cousins several times. I dropped something, or tripped and said one of the many swear words that I say without thinking in that situation. A couple of times I didn't realize I'd sworn until ten minutes later. These situations are the reasons I'm trying to stop swearing at all. I can easily see their parents not letting me see my cousins because I swore around them, and I wouldn't blame them for making that decision. Obviously I can't do the only swearing in appropriate situations thing, so I need to stop swearing at all.
Please understand, I'm not trying to defend anything. This thread just seems to be based on the assumption that people (IRL) always swear conciously. I don't think that's the case.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: in the case of swear words, over-use takes away their power.
I think that's exactly the point. People that are used to hearing swear words don't find much power in the words. There's no difference between saying shoot and a harsher word. Other people choose not to use them because they assign them as bad and thus give them power.
There's nothing intrinsically bad about a certain combination of sounds. It's all about what meaning we give to them. People who say that others are being immature when they curse seem to assume that the people cursing assign the same level of power. While that may be true in some cases, I do not think that it's normal. I'm not sure what value there is in giving these words the power to offend you.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Bob pluralized with an apostrophe and rivka didn't swear at him.
He did? I just thought he misspelled Tourette's.
Anyway, I don't swear over grocer's apostrophe's. I just invoke the kittens.
*lower lip wobbles*
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
People who say that others are being immature when they curse seem to assume that the people cursing assign the same level of power.
Actually, the impression I've been getting here is that people who say others are immature when they curse are assuming that the people cursing are insufficiently aware of or insufficiently concerned with how their cursing may be perceived by other people. It's not the meaning assigned, it's the courtesy (or the lack of it) to those around you.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Bob pluralized with an apostrophe and rivka didn't swear at him.
Wow, Hatrack is civilized.
Yeah, sorry about that rivka. I was all over the map in that earlier post yesterday. Scazafrazit!
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: People who say that others are being immature when they curse seem to assume that the people cursing assign the same level of power.
Actually, the impression I've been getting here is that people who say others are immature when they curse are assuming that the people cursing are insufficiently aware of or insufficiently concerned with how their cursing may be perceived by other people. It's not the meaning assigned, it's the courtesy (or the lack of it) to those around you.
Exactly!
And blacwolve has it right, I think, in saying that most of the times that swear words are used it appears not to be by conscious choice of the speaker.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay:
quote:Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
Um, no? Or at least, not necessarily.
I'm trying to think of a third alternative. Since we're talking about swearing in inappropriate situations here, it seems to me that the alternatives boil down to those two.
I was trying to make room for the option of "well, those people were being idiots and just NEEDED swearing at" but then, that really is a conscious choice to make a point and wouldn't be so much inappropriate as it would be a social statement. Of course, I might argue that even there the swearing isn't so important as the content of what else you say to get your message across...
Anyway, I'm not really seeing the other alternatives there...
HELP!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
They are both negative, but while condescension isn't great, thinking someone is immature holds out some hope. Thinking someone is instead rude and inconsiderate obliterates that hope. Hope is better than no hope.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
quote:Originally posted by ElJay:
quote:Of course, they can just say "who cares" but doesn't that reinforce the judgement of a certain lack of maturity and/or ineptitude in social situations?
Um, no? Or at least, not necessarily.
I'm trying to think of a third alternative. Since we're talking about swearing in inappropriate situations here, it seems to me that the alternatives boil down to those two.
The obvious one that comes to my mind is a lack of agreement on what constitutes an "inappropriate" situation.
Added:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: They are both negative, but while condescension isn't great, thinking someone is immature holds out some hope. Thinking someone is instead rude and inconsiderate obliterates that hope. Hope is better than no hope.
I'll take being considered a lost cause over being condescended to any day of the week.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Bad things happen when people write off each other as hopeless.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I don't see such a judgment, in the context of something as trivial as profanity use, as very likely to start us sliding down a slippery slope.
Added: Furthermore, insofar as I think your statement might be valid, it's comparably true for condescention.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:It's not the meaning assigned, it's the courtesy (or the lack of it) to those around you.
I do not think that is the position everbody is advocating. Some people have specificially stated they find cursing to be immature even apart from the courtesy aspect.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
This is circular, but condescension does still leave hope. Writing each other off is the end to everything - there's nothing to work on. Condescension keeps hope and the relationship alive, so it is possible to improve.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
As a hypothetical example:
If Joe considers Ralph a lost cause in the sphere of profanity, it doesn't necessasrily mean that Ralph considers Joe a lost cause in the sphere of prudishness. In fact, it isn't inconceivable that they could remain friends, depending on how much Ralph likes to swear and how much Joe dislikes hearing it.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
People can learn not to be rude. I hope so, at least.
I think I prefer being thought rude because then it's under my control. I can change my behavior. If I'm thought immature, then I can't change it, only more growth and experience can.
Also, if I'm thought rude at one point in time, then I can still be a perfectly good person at all others. If I'm thought immature, then all of me is immature, all the time.
As I verbalize these, I realize that they don't make complete sense. They are my gut instincts when I hear someone say I'm immature, though.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Condescension kills any hope of relationship for me. If someone condescends to me, I pretty much don't want to interact with them any more. I may be the only person to feel that way, but I doubt it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
To me inconsiderateness and rudeness imply selfishness, which is the dealbreaker for me. I can handle being condescended to - at least they are paying attention to me. Selfishness means I might as well not be there at all, in which case I will oblige them.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I wouldn't say it automatically kills any hope of a relationship for me, but I certainly take a dim view of it if it comes from someone purporting to be my friend.
Added: It being condescention.
Added 2: Insofar as the egocentrism implied by selfishness is concerned, it's almost a non-issue for me below a certain flagrancy threshold.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Do you handle a friend being rude better? That's not a challenge - I'm honestly curious. Maybe it's a matter of taste in what we don't mind and what we need. I love all kinds of well-meant attention, even the annoying kind.
On the other hand, rudeness or cutting remarks or general selfishness I have very little patience with - I like being around sweet, kind, and well-meaning, and rudeness doesn't usually seem to fit that.
In the matter of Do Unto Others (there's a nice debate about whether actually a golden standard of behavior here), while neither is great, immmaturity as a motivation is preferable to inconsiderateness or rudeness because I'd rather be condescended to than ignored and because a rude friend is not something I enjoy.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Personally, if it's a friend being rude, I'm more inclined to cut them slack (maybe they're having a hard day, for example). I guess because I think I know who these people are generally, I am far more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt when rude behavior comes up. Condescension, on the other hand, implies to me that they've always had a negative opinion of me and they've just been reigning it in. From friends, though, all it takes is an apology to negate both.
As far as strangers go...I guess for me condescension is a subset of rudeness. I don't really like either behavior, but condescension seems much more specifically aimed.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Someone can be rude to me and still respect me. Someone can't be condescending to me and still respect me.
I'm just curious- I almost always view rudeness as an abberation and condescention as a trend. Do you view them differently?
Edit: Yea, what Megan said.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Is it always condescension? I mean, we get newbies on Hatrack all the time that go crazy posting pay-attention-to-me threads. That generally calms down as they become more "mature" posters. Is it condescending then to hope that a promising newbie will calm down and figure out the forum?
I reject the premise that thinking someone would be better with some more maturity = condescension.
quote:I almost always view rudeness as an abberation and condescention as a trend. Do you view them differently?
Hmm...only when either is a trend. Everyone is rude sometimes, and practically everyone has an area in which they think they know better. One or two occasions of either doesn't constitute a trend, but several occasions of either would.
Sometimes it's a double-whammy. I have a co-worker who is both rude AND condescending.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
kat, I think we have different takes on what constitutes rudeness. For example, I find condescention incredibly rude, whereas you don't seem to, and my friends and I certainly speak to one another in ways I think you would probably consider rude.
For example, back in university there was a time when we used to make up impromptu dirty limericks about one another, which were invariably quite cutting, but everyone gave as good as they got, and we all found it hilarious.
Added:
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I reject the premise that thinking someone would be better with some more maturity = condescension.
I think the premise here is more precise: the assumption that use of profanity implies immaturity = condescention.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I do think condescension is rude. What I don't believe is that thinking someone is being immature is condescending.
quote:For example, back in university there was a time when we used to make up impromptu dirty limericks about one another, which were invariably quite cutting, but everyone gave as good as they got, and we all found it hilarious.
Yeah, I think we are different. There's absolutely no way I would enjoy that. There are so few cutting remarks in my real life that even the occasional one that's too hilarious to pass up can stop the conversation.
I like it that way. I can take on the world just fine, but in my absolute private sanctum, life is very sweet and friendly and lovely.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's strange, but I think the premise that someone thinking profanity implies a sort of immaturity means the person thinking it is condescending is sort of...well, condescending themselves as well.
Both points of view-that profanity implies immaturity, and that thinking that equates to condescension-both stem from a bit of a self-superior view of proper behavior and speaking, don't they? But to some degree, I guess that's true of everything manners-related.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, Rakeesh, you're brilliant. That's exactly what I was thinking and couldn't quite say.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
To clarify, the sweetness comes from the person. Whether or not someone is swearing is not the difference between whether or not someone is rude. Some of the sweetest people I know swear and I don't mind - not steeling myself not to mind, but I really don't, because I know it isn't out of rudeness at all.
I also think there is a difference between swearing around someone and swearing at someone. The second is a great deal more serious than the first, but I think that's because the vehemence and extreme emotions swear words are meant to express are actually directed straight at the listener. Even with spotless language sentiment like that will hurt.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I do think condescension is rude. What I don't believe is that thinking someone is being immature is condescending.
As far as I'm aware, I haven't said that. See my edit above where I attempted to clarify the premise more precisely. The application of the "condescending" label is very context-dependent for me.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Man, we really need to resurrect Icarus' Aborted Gay Palestinian Babies thread. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I do think condescension is rude.
Ooh, congratulations on using a big word like "condescension"! Now, do you think you can give us an example, for those of us who don't understand what that means?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Dobbie: Condescension is when you talk down to someone.
What a cute puppy! *hugs it*
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
That is a seriously cute puppy!
Awwwww...
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Awwwwww!
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dobbie: Ooh, congratulations on using a big word like "condescension"! Now, do you think you can give us an example, for those of us who don't understand what that means?
Oh, well played.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
lol
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
the puppy is a WEDGE ISSUE
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:They are both negative, but while condescension isn't great, thinking someone is immature holds out some hope. Thinking someone is instead rude and inconsiderate obliterates that hope.
You know, this may be why some people don't understand why missionary work is inherently, deeply insulting. If you're used to holding out hope for all those fully-grown "little children" around you, maybe you really don't understand how incredibly offensive that is. I strongly prefer being disliked to being someone's project.
quote:What I don't believe is that thinking someone is being immature is condescending.
Indeed it is. Because the assumption here is that the person involved "has some growing to do," whether that's the case or not.
We condescend to newbies and to children all the time, in this forum and out in the world, but we accept that because it's common knowledge that both children and newbies do have some growing to do. People who swear a lot, though, may have made a fully adult decision to simply disregard certain social mores; the assumption that they would "grow into" your mores is a tacit assumption that a) your mores are superior to theirs and b) they are not fully adult.
That's inherently disrespectful.
quote:I also think there is a difference between swearing around someone and swearing at someone. The second is a great deal more serious than the first...
And here, too, I disagree. Every time I've ever been discomfited by cursing, it's been by someone cursing around me, not at me. People cursing at me are a complete afterthought, since the curses are just symptomatic of the real problem by that point. (One exception: my mother once called me a "son of a b***h." My reaction ensured that she chose her curses more appropriately thereafter.)
-------
The idea that you know better than someone else how they should behave is, as far as I'm concerned, probably the single most deadly insult you can offer an adult when uninvited. The social distinction between an adult and a child, in fact, is precisely this: whether they're old enough to be assumed to make their own rational choices, and for the world to presume that those choices carry some internal validity.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
"Kids love to swear. Hell, I was swearing before I knew what it meant."
I'm sorry, this is still bothering me. I just wanted to say that kids swearing before they even know what it means is exactly why it is a good idea to refrain from swearing around children. Of course children are going to be exposed to all the dark and light and inbetweens of the world, but I absolutely hate when people use that as an excuse to throw their accountability and consideration of others to the wind.
I remember cussing as a child when i knew it was "bad," but I didn't realize the negative effects it could have on those around me. I've always had a bit of a sailor mouth, but I do my best to rarely if ever cuss in public. It is truly disgusting and disheartening to hear a child using foul language. It is called foul language and cursing for a reason. It is strong and jarring, and usually meant to express bad feelings provocatively, or to negate others.
And using foul language till it is diluted? Well. To me it wouldn't be unlike watching someone stab everyone in their vicinity, multiple times, not because they were truly angry, but because they were apathetic. It's gross. (And of course I do not equate puncturing an organ on the same level as slipping a dirty word, it is just an accessible image.)
I guess I rather miss when it was expected for people to watch their language in public places. It's just a common courtesy, like not smoking in a movie theater, or in a waiting room. We're all going to be around eachother, so why not be at least mildly considerate?
It's all a null point, anyway. Everyone that posts here agreed to these terms in the beginning. Don't enter some hospitable person's home and demand they rearrange their furniture and change their customs. Especially not when you have plenty of other places to go. I daresay no one is homeless on the internet.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:You know, this may be why some people don't understand why missionary work is inherently, deeply insulting.
quote:The idea that you know better than someone else how they should behave is, as far as I'm concerned, probably the single most deadly insult you can offer an adult when uninvited.
Tom, do you think people shouldn't be deeply insulting?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Tom, do you think people shouldn't be deeply insulting?
Now THIS is something I've never said. In fact, I recall having strongly come down in favor of being deeply insulting once or twice. I've even gone to the trouble of drawing a distinction between being uncivil and being impolite, IIRC, and explained why I think both behaviors, while distinct, are perfectly justifiable at times. *grin*
But I do think that being deeply insulting is a graver approach than being astonishingly rude, if only because it implicitly places you in opposition to the listener; rudeness creates a sense of the "other," but does not inherently define that "other" as hostile -- whereas insult does. It's far worse, in other words, to patronize someone than to swear in their presence; the former amounts to a direct challenge of status, and demands response in a way that uncouth behavior, for all that society might frown on it, does not.
I have -- frequently -- chosen to insult and patronize people, and have no doubt that many of my behaviors come across as rude. But there are prices I pay for these choices. For every three newbies we patiently lecture on the "proper" way to interact with Hatrack, I have no doubt that we alienate two -- and, as an ancillary cost, reinforce in our own minds our perception of ourselves as somehow "superior" to the hoi polloi. But provided that we keep that cost in mind, I maintain that the cost is worth it to keep the forum free of the clutter that drags down many other sites out there. Still, the cost is high enough that, at least once a year, the forum turns on itself in some kind of guilty purging ritual, intended subconsciously (I believe) to establish whether or not the regulars are entitled to maintain a sense of superiority.
I know missionaries go through the same kind of regimen, albeit with a slightly different focus, and I don't doubt that Miss Manners often finds herself wondering whether, at the end of the day, anything she bothers writing actually matters to anyone. But I think it's important to keep in mind the fact that "insult" is not the same thing as "offense;" that's why swearing in front of someone who has asked you not to swear is worse than swearing in front of a friend who has never made his preferences known.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:whether or not the regulars are entitled to maintain a sense of superiority
Yeah, I guess that's why I'm not a regular anymore.
Posted by happymann (Member # 9559) on :
So, should we frequently ask for permission from those who don't want us to swear in front of them in case they change their mind, or should we be safe and assume that they always are going to be against us swearing around them?
My preferences concerning swearing have changed over the years (much to my wife's dismay since she's trying to kick the habit for our new daughter), so I've gotten into the habit of asking old friends where they stand. A few of them have changed as well. So for the time being I'll keep asking over and over again.
Posted by katdog42 (Member # 4773) on :
I don't swear. I never have. I live in one of those mystical places where people don't swear (yeah, they exist). I am offended by many swear words, especially those with religious undertones and sexual conotations. It almost killed me when I was a high school freshman and I had to tell the band director exactly what someone had said to me because much of what she had said were swear words that I had never said.
That being said, Happymann, I would appreciate if you not swear around me as I don't think my preferences will change anytime soon. I like this bulletin board because I don't have to worry about running into many curse words or topics with dirty language or ideas and I would like to keep it that way.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I don't know why.
but swearing really, really makes me feel good.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Now THIS is something I've never said.
Which would be why I asked.
Thank you for the rest of your answer.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: . . . somehow "superior" to the hoi polloi.
*snicker-snort*
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
If folks wish to continue this conversation they may, but I believe most people have seen the thread and so it needn't be stickied any longer.
--PJ
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I don't consider anyone rude or immature for having a behavior (cussing, smoking, bathroom talk), but only for continuing a behavior once I've let him know it bothers me. When I am alone or with other adults, if I can leave the presence of what offends me, I will. If I'm with my kids and I can't leave, I will tell the person it bothers me or point out my kids. If the person stops, I say,"thank you" and don't consider him rude or immature. If he doesn't stop, I consider him rude. If he whines and rants or gets passive aggressive about his right to continue a behavior that offends, then I consider him immature.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:People who swear a lot, though, may have made a fully adult decision to simply disregard certain social mores; the assumption that they would "grow into" your mores is a tacit assumption that a) your mores are superior to theirs and b) they are not fully adult.
Okay, I think most people - fairly or not - feel like their social mores are superior to mores that go contrary to theirs. Most people won't say anything about it, but wish others held standards or mores similar to their own - whether it's thinking that "refraining from swearing is the polite way to behave", or whether it's that "people should stop being offended by mere words." The holder of an opinion generally feels it's better than contrary opinions, otherwise they would share the contrary opinion. (It's late; is this making sense?)
As for thinking people should "grow into" your mores - It may be totally inappropriate to think, but it's what the world looks like to me in this situation. To me, learning to be less self-centered and care more about how your behavior affects others is a sign of maturity - because it generally happens as people grow past adolescence into adulthood. It may be inaccurate in my case to use the word "maturity" for people who swear indiscriminately, because I generally don't know the reasons they swear and I base my reaction on assumptions. I generally assume that they need a little consideration for others, which I generally assume comes with maturity. It doesn't always, of course.
I will acknowledge that there are those who decide as adults, after a lifetime of not swearing, that they no longer care what anyone thinks or how they feel or how uncomfortable it makes them, and start swearing. I do not think those persons have gained maturity. They may have gotten that way as they aged, but I wouldn't call it maturity. For adults who have made a conscious choice to swear regardless of how others feel - if immature is the wrong word, I don't know the right word for them, other than I think it's sad that they would "grow" in that direction.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Is it the meaning of the swear words or the sentiment that they are an expression of, or a combination thereof, that is offensive to people? Do you react differently if the nature of the swearing is religious, sexual or scathological? (Are there any other categories?) To what extent is the offense lessened when euphemisms of "real" swear words are used?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:For adults who have made a conscious choice to swear regardless of how others feel - if immature is the wrong word, I don't know the right word for them...
Again, let me suggest "inconsiderate."
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think being astonishingly rude is ALSO deeply insulting. It means you don't respect the person. It means you consider the person to have so little value that it isn't worth being polite. It means that the person and their feelings mean absolutely nothing. That is insulting.
Inconsiderate means selfish and self-centered.
What's funny is that I don't agree that swearing = immature. I think people do it for all sorts of reasons. Some are immature, some are responding to what they see as social norms and are trying to fit in, some are selfish and self-centered, and some draw no distinction between polite and impolite situations, and some don't consider swearing to be impolite. The reason we can't agree on a single motivation is because there isn't a single motivation.
I really wish there was a value-nuetral word for "does not use profanity or swear words." I'm still looking for suggestions if anyone has one.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:Again, let me suggest "inconsiderate."
Unfortunately, "inconsiderate" does not have the same satisfying eye-rolling potential as "oh, grow up!"
(Yes, I recognize that marks me as condescending. When I hear people swearing a lot in public and they won't stop when they realize they're being offensive, I have a rather immature desire to insult them back. I usually refrain. But I can at least think to myself that I wish they would grow up.)
quote:I really wish there was a value-nuetral word for "does not use profanity or swear words." I'm still looking for suggestions if anyone has one.
I can't think of one, because profanity is not value-neutral. Swearing is only offensive because of the connotations we (society) give those words, either positively or negatively - therefore the words we use to describe one who doesn't use them would either have a positive or negative connotation.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I think being astonishingly rude is ALSO deeply insulting. It means you don't respect the person.
No, that's actually untrue, which is why there's a distinction at all.
Being inconsiderate -- not considering someone else's feelings when making a decision -- is NOT the same thing as being disrespectful. Respect is not actually consideration, and should not be confused with consideration.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It is part of consideration, and being inconsiderate is very self-centered.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Being inconsiderate may be self-centered. Assuming that a lack of consideration always stems from simple selfishness, however, makes it harder to deal with people who are inconsiderate for other reasons.
I don't think it's necessarily true that respect is a subset of consideration, either; I know many people who show "consideration" who have no respect for the target of that consideration at all.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
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Bob.
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