I have been freelance editing fiction from home lately, and the last novel I edited contained a lot of profanity. The F-word occured 88 times in the 350-page novel. One of the characters called another the C-word, and another character referred to a random guy who bugged him as an f-ing w*****. Every major character swears like this; it isn't just one person who has a potty mouth.
I told the authors the language might be off-putting to most readers, especially the last two examples. I wonder, though, if I might be naive as to how much people who aren't Mormon and don't live in Utah actually swear. What do you think? Do you think I was right to suggest a change?
(By the way, they decided not to go with my advice, which is their perogative, I guess.)
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I'm still trying to figure out what a "w*****" is.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: I'm still trying to figure out what a "w*****" is.
Me too... Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
It's a term more often used in British English, so maybe you're not that familiar with it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I grew up outside of Utah, and I personally limit my profanity very much. I just find I can articulate what I am trying to say outside the realm of swear words better. But when talking about swear words I usually do not hesitate to say them unless my conversant might be offended.
My biggest qualm with Quentin Tarantino movies is that his characters swear too often. It takes away from the dialogue in my opinion to saturate it so much with those sorts of words. They just lose all meaning and sound primitive. I do not think it sounds realistic. People talking about interesting topics in the manner they do just doesnt seem accurate to me.
The only people who swear as much as his characters do were the high school morons at my school who thought I failed the ACT with them when I got a 36 and they got an 8.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
What does it mean that I think I know? >_<
Brinestone, I would agree with you. But my worldview is probably too close to yours to be helpful.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: I'm still trying to figure out what a "w*****" is.
Wigger? (White person who acts Black).
edit: Brinestone: OOOOO does it rhyme with Spanker?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I think it totally depends on their audience and if it's true to the characters in their book. For most puposes though, yeah, it's probably too much.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think it depends on the tone and subject matter of the novel.
-pH
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I'm not Mormon, and while I grew up in a Christian environment (for the most part), I've been around all sort of people thanks to public schools. I've heard some people who probably cuss as much as the characters you describe. I wouldn't say it's a majority though. Most people I know limit their cussing quite a bit.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I got it right away.
I'm Mormon but not from Utah, and my family are all non-members, and I can tell you that most of them do not swear unless in extreme duress, it's considered impolite, and they also do not read books with excessive profanity; in my father's words, "The author must not be very educated if he doesn't know where cussing is and isn't appropriate. And if he's trying to make a point, he misses the mark by using it all the time like that. The only point he makes is that he's probably too young to know any better."
On the other hand, my very immature younger brother would probably find it hilarious to read something with so much swearing. So if your writer's target audience is very immature boys in their late teens/early twenties who find swearing "cool" or "hilarious", he's right on target.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Frankly, I was surprised how much profanity gets used daily in the places I've worked.
I always tried to keep it out of my vocabulary, as it always seemed unprofessional to me, but I've had ... let's see ... three bosses in the past year and a half, and all three have used the F-word in a conversation with me at one point. (My current editor is famous office-wide for swearing randomly at his cubicle walls when something goes wrong...we generally find it cute.)
For those who don't know, I live in Washington DC, on the East Coast, and am pretty removed from the Utah-Mormon axis . You could ask Katie how her experience has been here in town.
That said, there are definitely trends as to what is acceptable and what is not. The f-word, "shoot", "dang", and the full version of "sonova" are all pretty acceptable as long as they are not used in a sexual context (I've never encountered that in the workplace). The b-word by itself isn't tolerable, nor is the c-word Brinestone mentioned above.
Basically, if you use profanity to describe a situation gone awry, it's fine. If you're using it in any kind of sexual context, whether it be gender or the act itself, it isn't.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
It's a light romantic comedy with a bit of a moral at the end. The target audience is 20-something women. I quite liked it, except for the language.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I probably curse more than you do, but it actually would be off-putting to me. Because I have children and I teach, I do very little cursing in my day-to-day life, and when I see someone really filthy--not just dropping an F-bomb here or there, which I've done just today on sakeriver, but cursing every other word--it really does shock me.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: It's a light romantic comedy with a bit of a moral at the end. The target audience is 20-something women. I quite liked it, except for the language.
Under those circumstances, it's probably not appropriate and would probably kind of throw me off.
-pH
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
I never knew that was considered a swear word, actually.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I agree, given the description of the novel - I would say it's pretty inappropriate.
If you told me it was about the daily life of a drug runner in inner city America, then I'd say it's probably fine. But a light romantic comedy? I would definitely be put off if I picked up that type of book and found that language in it.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I never knew that was considered a swear word, actually.
I've never heard that word before today.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Some of my housemates swear when playing videogames, very amusing swears at that. If someone's going to swear, the more amusing it is, the better. I've gained somewhat of a badmouth myself, but I know where to control it (ie here and when I'm around my parents).
I hate the c-word with a mad fiery passion.
The w----- one I got right away.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Sometimes too mcuh cussing can put me off... It can get in the way. But, if done creatively, it's not so bad. I knew what the W word was, but perhaps I watch too many British things.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
If it was pitched towards fans of Kevin Smith, or Tarentino, or George Carlin, sure. Light comedy chick lit? Not a lot of cussing there, I don't believe.
I would ask the authors what audience they were going for, and then offer advice as to how best to reach that audience.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
88 times in 350 pages is an average of once every four pages. Obviously they're probably not evenly spaced out like that, but I thought I'd throw that in there for perspective. I've read and enjoyed books that use the f-word more than four times a page, on average, so honestly this doesn't seem like the book is just peppered with profanity, from my point of view.
That said, for a light romantic comedy with a moral at the end, they're probably alienating a large chunk of their audience. The w word I've never considered that bad, but I can't imagine the c word being appropriate in a light romantic quality. I'm sure someone could do it, but I can't imagine how. So I think you were right to draw their attention to it.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
(Chris, there is quite a bit of "edgier" chick lit out there now that has cussing in it, aimed at my demographic, I think. But from Brinestone's description, this probably isn't in that category.)
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Wanker's a swear word? *used the word to see if it gets bleeped out*
Huh. Well I swear a lot. American, British, Sci-fi/Fantasy... whatever, I use em all. I don't even really notice I'm doing it anymore. But I live on a college campus, and so everyone does. It's just part of life and the language. It's used to emphasize a point, it's just slipped in, it's used as normal vocabulary. I think the primary ones used on campus are: "sex" with an f, "dung" with a c, "dung" with an s, son of a "female dog", "illegitimate offspring", "female dog", etc. *shrug* You get used to it, pick it up as slang. They're just words after all, and it's possible to say their meaning with out them, as I have just done. I mean, if the meaning of the words in and of itself isn't particularly offensive, why are they? I really have never understood quite what is so special about them.
I'm actually shocked that there are people around who are still offended by these words. I figured the '90s and modern TV would have wiped all remenants of shock value out of those words.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I am, as you must know, not a Mormon; I do find, however, that one of the less endearing habits of Americans is to use swear words as punctuation. Really, it's not necessary to repeat 'what the f***' ten times, with various inflections; we understand that you are confused and amazed. A simple 'that's weird' would do. And it also wouldn't cheapen the swear words for those times when you actually need them to give some emphasis to your complaint. It's actually quite tiring to constantly have "this is important" markers thrown into a sentence that isn't really very important at all, even to the speaker. It's like constantly being told to sit up and pay attention, without any real content to pay attention to.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah, light romantic comedy aimed at women my age? Swearing not cool there.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I've watched most of Sex and the City on DVD and usually wasn't offended. It's light chic lit commedy, and I would guess the author of the book you edited is trying to copy that.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I figured the '90s and modern TV would have wiped all remnants of shock value out of those words.
On most tv shows, if there is swearing, it is used, as KoM indicated, for emphasis when things are important, shocking, or a character is in trouble. Occasionally there is a character who swears constantly, but usually only on shows on HBO. And most shows don't have more than one or two characters like that even if they do exist. So I don't get how "modern tv" is supposed to have desensitized these words to such an extent.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
You know, it took me awhile to figure out that the "c-word" you guys were referring to wasn't "crap." I was wondering why people were so worked up about it! On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I know what the W-word was. *shrug* It would be interesting to see a geographical study on commonly used profanity. You know, like the ones where they ask you what you call fizzy carbonated drinks and then group responses by area. Except less G-rated.
I find swearing a little off-putting when it's constant, but I've gotten pretty used to hearing it fairly often. I have no problem when my friends use it to express strong emotion now and then. Sounds like its use might be a bit out of line in the book you were editing. If I were reading some sort of hardcore military thriller novel, I'd expect that. In a light romantic comedy? Not so much.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:So I don't get how "modern tv" is supposed to have desensitized these words to such an extent.
Guessing you don't watch the same movies and Tv as folks around here do. That or I just stopped noticing when people used them and when they didn't. It's so rare to find anyone actually offended by them around here... It's just such a part of the language. I figured that whole "watch your mouth" kinda thing was a high school thing.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: 88 times in 350 pages is an average of once every four pages. Obviously they're probably not evenly spaced out like that, but I thought I'd throw that in there for perspective. I've read and enjoyed books that use the f-word more than four times a page, on average, so honestly this doesn't seem like the book is just peppered with profanity, from my point of view.
That said, for a light romantic comedy with a moral at the end, they're probably alienating a large chunk of their audience. The w word I've never considered that bad, but I can't imagine the c word being appropriate in a light romantic quality. I'm sure someone could do it, but I can't imagine how. So I think you were right to draw their attention to it.
I could imagine it being used maybe between women, as a joke? Like how sometimes friends can joke around and say, "Oh, you skank." Or something.
-pH
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Or (I'm becoming a broken record) on Sex and the City it was used in one episode by an artist painting women's genitalia. Everyone was offended, but ammused
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I've always found that it's generally polite never to swear in front of someone who's never sworn in front of you. Obviously this can't be true all the time, or no one would use curse words. Eventually, if you find yourself in a situation with a person that you think will be fine with it, and you feel so inclined, I think it can be appropriate to use curse words to show convey a certain message or intensity.
Most people that I have worked with for more than two or three days have cursed in the coarse of their day. When not used excessively, swearing can be an affective way to communicate your feelings or opinions.
I definitely try not to curse in front of strangers or people that I don't know, or people that I know don't like it. It's not hard, there are always other words you can use. I don't think it's a sign of unintelligence of a lack of vocabulary to use curse words, it's just different diction.
Many books I've read have contained more than an average of 4 curse words per page and I don't think their the worse for it. They can serve their purpose and deliver the message. But I agree with everyone here that swearing would probably not be appropriate in a light romantic comedy. I guess you'd really have to read the book to know for sure though.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Most people that I have worked with for more than two or three days have cursed in the coarse of their day.
*giggles*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The F-word occured 88 times in the 350-page novel. One of the characters called another the C-word, and another character referred to a random guy who bugged him as an f-ing w*****. Every major character swears like this; it isn't just one person who has a potty mouth.
IMO, that's not excessive, depending on genre. If the book is about some young society women at a garden party, for example, it's probably LOW.
Seriously, that's not that bad. There's a webpage floating around out there that tracks the instances of the classic "F-word" in popular movies; more than a handful -- and these are popular movies, mind you -- used it in excess of two to three times a minute. Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Tom, it is about filthy rich people in Florida (and their not-rich associates and servants), so maybe that's what they're going for.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think excessive swearing can really tear a person out of the flow of a book. Even a person like me, who probably says it dozens of times a day. In fact, it's 830am and I've already told one of my coworkers to f--- off.
That said, it's impossible for me to say whether this particular manuscript has too much swearing without having read it. Just depends on the context.
Posted by libertygirl (Member # 8761) on :
I don't think swearing that often would really contribute to the plot of a book in that genre. It seems like they could take some out or replace some of the most offensive words pretty easily without much effect.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I don't think swearing that often would really contribute to the plot of a book in that genre.
Swearing almost never contributes to plot. But it contributes quite a bit to tone and verisimilitude. Consider my experience reading OSC's Magic Street, where a nurse's use of "coprocranium" (or something along that line) completely threw me out of the book for a second, since I didn't believe even for a moment that the character in question wouldn't've used the more typical curse word for which it was substituted.
That said, I think using vulgarity to establish setting should be done the same way any good mechanism is used: sparingly. If you're writing a noir novel and consistently describe every room as dark and smoky, it's going to come off as self-parody; the same goes for any gangster movie in which most of the characters only speak in curses.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: I'm still trying to figure out what a "w*****" is
think - 'prostitute'
I think it also depends on the storyline and characters. If you are writing characters that are like heavy-duty mafia or something -- that generally TALK that way (there are people I have heard that do use the 'f' word nearly every-other word) -- then it would be true to character to write it that way, even if offensive to the reader.
I imagine it's a fine balancing act as an author.
FG
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Wait a sec. I didn't think "w*****" stood for "prostitute." I assumed it was referring to the British slang for "masturbator," especially in the phrase "f****** w*****."
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:If you are writing characters that are like heavy-duty mafia or something -- that generally TALK that way (there are people I have heard that do use the 'f' word nearly every-other word) -- then it would be true to character to write it that way, even if offensive to the reader.
Yes, but, it's my observation that characters in books don't speak the way real-life people do, for the most part. Transcribing conversations will give you tons of tics, stammers, misused words, gestures, and noises. And even authors who are gifted at dialogue (a group I place OSC in) don't include nearly as much of this as real life would indicate.
And so even when some of these tics are included in writing to establish characterization, like a character who ends every 5th sentence with 'y'know?', it's still much less than what they would in real life. Y'know?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
The book Mystic River used the F-word about once a page. I'd say the book is average for a certain type of fiction. Tom Wolfe's books have a lot of swearing in them as well.
I couldn't finish Mystic River because of it. I can handle a little, bit it started to grate on me. I don't swear very much, although I admit I broke the "I Never Swear" thing a few years ago under extreme familial pressure. I do limit it to light swearing about (not at) family, if that helps.
quote:For those who don't know, I live in Washington DC, on the East Coast, and am pretty removed from the Utah-Mormon axis. You could ask Katie how her experience has been here in town.
Five months in D.C. and I can't think of every hearing the F-word or any other swearing a single time at work. There might have been some light profanity from coworkers at out-of-office things, but not much. Maybe where I work is more conservative.
*thinks* Conservative is the wrong word. My boss, an agnostic, did call the President a "weenie" in a staff meeting once, which was greatly amusing. What would the word for "doesn't swear" be that doesn't have any political or religious implications?
[ October 12, 2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
I think Tom's right. Farmgirl's W word is quite commonly used in the US. Though I wouldn't have pegged the British word as quite that offensive. Probably because I'm not British.
In answer to the question, language like that is definitely jarring to me and brings me out of the story, at least if it's the majority of characters in a book aimed at twenty-something women. At the very, very least, they're severely limiting their audience. I'd also recommend against using so much profanity unless they could demonstrate compelling (character, ideology, something) reasons to leave it in.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I've found that people who have problems with swearing typically don't like even the books and movies that do make effective use of profanity, e.g. Kevin Smith movies, Tarantino movies, Chuck Pahlaniuk novels.
Most of them would not, in fact, call that an effective use of profanity.
quote:ElJay wrote:
That said, for a light romantic comedy with a moral at the end, they're probably alienating a large chunk of their audience. The w word I've never considered that bad, but I can't imagine the c word being appropriate in a light romantic quality. I'm sure someone could do it, but I can't imagine how. So I think you were right to draw their attention to it.
The lesbian community has been trying for years to alter the meaning of "c***" the same way the gay (male) community effectively took "queer" and "made it their own." With that in mind, I can see it being possible, but even my ears grate a bit when I hear c*** used and am not expecting it.
It's such a vulgar SOUNDING word.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Weird, that word never bothered be. I'll never, ever *use* it but hearing it is like hearing "potato chip" or "SUV" or something. A word that *does* bother me is "moist".... anyone remember the spark dot com?
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: The book Mystic River used the F-word about once a page. I'd say the book is average for a certain type of fiction. Tom Wolfe's books have a lot of swearing in them as well.
I couldn't finish Mystic River because of it. I can handle a little, bit it started to grate on me. I don't swear very much, although I admit I broke the "I Never Swear" thing a few years ago under extreme familial pressure. I do limit it to light swearing about (not at) family, if that helps.
So do movies like Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs or even South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut bother you to the point of being unwatchable? Or would those bother only if you're reading the book?
Just curious how much of a difference in impact there is between written and visual media.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
The difference might also be in the time it takes to finish something. I can sit through a two-hour movie filled with cursing and even enjoy it if it's a good movie, but reading a book for two weeks on my commute would get to me more due to longer exposure.
Just a thought.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:So do movies like Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs or even South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut bother you to the point of being unwatchable? Or would those bother only if you're reading the book?
Yeah, those are basically unwatchable for me. I did see The Departed this past weekend, but there was much agnozing about it and I only did it because it's a Scorcese movie and because Matt wanted to. There was a lot of swearing, but not too much.
Donnie Darko I turned off in the first fifteen minutes because of all the swearing. That might give an indication of what is too much.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I think I have a somewhat higher tolerance for some words because a lot of my friends are Irish. Many of those words are not considered particularly shocking.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Donnie Darko I turned off in the first fifteen minutes because of all the swearing. That might give an indication of what is too much.
I cannot even fathom missing out on a great movie because it happened to use "naughty words". I mean, I can't even relate to this on any level whatsoever.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I have NO IDEA what Farmgirl's 'w' word even is.
I saw the movie Mystic River, and I wouldn't touch the novel with tongs. I wish I hadn't watched the movie. Not because of swearing, though. It was so frelling depressing, I imagine the presence of that book would suck the joy out of ten foot radius.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Xav, I wasn't clutching my pearls or anything. But it disrupted the experience and it was unpleasant enough that fifteen minutes in it wasn't worth it anymore.
I also suspect that Donnie Darko is vastly overrated, but that might be another discussion.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: What would the word for "doesn't swear" be that doesn't have any political or religious implications?
"Polite".
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:What would the word for "doesn't swear" be that doesn't have any political or religious implications?
Formal? Reserved? Proper?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
ah -- you're probably right, Tom and I'm wrong. I just went with the first thing that came to my mind, and although I am familiar with the term you are referring to, it has been quite awhile since I've heard it, so I didn't think of it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I also suspect that Donnie Darko is vastly overrated, but that might be another discussion.
If I were to compile a Top 10 scenes out of all screendom that I've ever seen, the ending montage of Donnie Darko would be right up there.
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Just to throw in some obligatory Scrabble content: the W word just finally made it into the latest Scrabble dictionary update in 2005. (Of course, that's the tournament players version; the one you can buy in the bookstore doesn't have the offensive words in it, including that danged W word.)
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:What would the word for "doesn't swear" be that doesn't have any political or religious implications?
Stodgy, prudish, priggish, Victorian, puritanical, prissy... Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:ah -- you're probably right, Tom and I'm wrong. I just went with the first thing that came to my mind, and although I am familiar with the term you are referring to, it has been quite awhile since I've heard it, so I didn't think of it.
I actually said it in an above post to see if it would get blotted out. It didn't. It's never struck me as that vulgar. But then, I'm american and a college student. And I was a high school student when I was in Scotland. So the fact that something doesn't strike me as vulgar obviously doesn't say much about how it'll strike other folks.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That's just it - I don't want a word with either positive (polite) or negative (prissy) connotations. Maybe that's an indication about swearing itself - it's loaded with social meaning, whether we want it to be or not.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I cannot even fathom missing out on a great movie because it happened to use "naughty words". I mean, I can't even relate to this on any level whatsoever.
Yeah, me too. Though I've grown up around pretty regular use of curse words(not in my home, but in school and around the neighborhood). And still curse pretty regularly. And from the majority of people I know, cursing is pretty normal thing in everybody's lives. That's why Tarintino and Kevin Smith movies had such popularity. It was finally people in movies talking like *real* people. Sure it may not be indicative of all of the United States, but it was spot on in my experience.
This thread made me think of Rocco's F-bomb scene in Boondock Saints which has what? 20-30 curse words in maybe 10 seconds of dialogue?
And Donie Darko is certainly NOT overrated! Is it time for yet ANOTHER Donnie Darko thread?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think the point is that if the swearing is so so prevelant that it distracts from the movie, it is not as good of a movie as it could have been.
A movie can be great with the coloring of the swearing or in spite of it, but no movie is great BECAUSE of it.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think the point is that if the swearing is so so prevelant that it distracts from the movie, it is not as good of a movie as it could have been.
A movie can be great with the coloring of the swearing or in spite of it, but no movie is great BECAUSE of it.
But sometimes the prevelant swearing is a valid part of the movie. Just like sometimes graphic violence is a valid part of the movie. And sometimes, movies that make people uncomfortable are supposed to make people uncomfortable.
Edit: Like sex scenes. I've seen movies where the sex scenes just seemed to be thrown in there, but I've seen a lot more where the sex scenes actually gave some good insight into the characters.
-pH
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If the main thing a movie has going for it is shock value, it isn't a great movie.
I'm not impressed by a movie's depth being proven by how many people it can offend. This is venturing into subjective territory, but I believe that a great movie is more than that.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:This thread made me think of Rocco's F-bomb scene in Boondock Saints which has what? 20-30 curse words in maybe 10 seconds of dialogue?
I thought of that one, too. But I didn't want to go listing the "Top 5 F-bomb Movies Ever Made".
Interesting that South Park holds the record for the most profanity with 399 swears in it. Who goes through these things counting, anyway?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
There was a counter at the bottom of the screen during that episode giving a running total of curse words throughout the show. That was kind of the point of that particular episode. If I recall correctly, once enough curse words were said the four horsemen of the apocolypse came to destroy the world, and somehow the kids saved everything.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: If the main thing a movie has going for it is shock value, it isn't a great movie.
But how do you define "shock value?" Let's take a movie that most people thought was a crap, probably shock value movie. Saw (the first one). That was one gruesome, creepy, creepy movie. But I loved it partly because what scared me about it WASN'T the gore. To me, what was frightening about it, and what actually kept me up at night, was the villain himself. Now, we can throw in that the movie actually did kind of have a decent message that a lot of people didn't seem to notice. Was that movie created solely for shock value? Maybe. Maybe not. I didn't think so.
I only mention that movie because it's on my mind, since the third is coming out on Halloween. I'm rambling.
-pH
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
So is it only profanity? Is a movie like Clockwork Orange (which happens to be one of my favorite movies of all time), which has I think ONE curse word in it, acceptable because of its artistic value, or is the nature of the content enough of a turn off?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
That is one of my favorite movies. But the book is better.
-pH
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I'm a bit different: I loved the book, but have no desire to see the movie.
I think because with the book I can self-censor, in other words, I can decide how I'll picture the violence and how much of it I'll really imagine, and how personally connected to it I'll get. In a movie it's all RIGHT THERE and I have no control.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Well, the movie really isn't as violent or gory as the book. I mean, it is very violent and gory, just not as much as the book.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:I thought of that one, too. But I didn't want to go listing the "Top 5 F-bomb Movies Ever Made".
Oh, look, somebody already did that for me.
hah, I love most of those movies. The Big Lebowski being the best movie ever made in the history of all movies ever.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Agreed! And the drinking game that consists of taking a drink every time they say one of those curse words? It rocks.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Well, the movie really isn't as violent or gory as the book. I mean, it is very violent and gory, just not as much as the book.
The movie is one of my favorites as well, but I know multiple people who refuse to ever watch that movie again, or couldn't even finish watching it because it was too much for them to handle. The movie also loses a lot of the book's message by cutting out the final chapter.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Definitely! I think I read somewhere that the publishers didn't think Americans wanted to read a story where the character changes at the end and becomes a slightly better person.
But I do wonder if it is only the graphic visuals that are a problem, or if those people that can't watch the movie can read the book, even though it describes the graphic scenes in much more detail and much more close up?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I certainly didn't think the character became a better person at the end. He just became controlled.
And JennaDean, I agree. I loved the book but couldn't stand the movie. Imagining things in my own head is much different than seeing it.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I guess I would call "controlled" in Alex's situation a vast enough improvement that it would make him a slightly better person. I guess I also assumed that this implied that he would continue to become better in the future. I could be way off on that though.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I haven't seen a single one of those movies/shows on the list Nighthawk linked to. Guess that is good.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I grew up in an environment which was free of the 'immaturity' swearing stigma. Swearing can be downright artistic in the right context, and I guess I'm happy I'm not faint of heart over words used in an Andrea Gibson performance.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Huh, I'll have to watch Donnie Darko again. I don't remember any swearing at all, and only one vaguely uncomfortable part (where he's at the therapist and wakes up with his hand where it shouldn't be). Strange that it went under my radar.
I too loved a lot of those movies on Nighthawk's list. The rest I haven't heard of or seen.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I haven't seen a single one of those movies/shows on the list Nighthawk linked to. Guess that is good.
Does it surprise anyone that I've seen all but two of movies on that list? Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I haven't seen Tigerland, Fubar(really?), Another Day in Paradise, or Dead Presidents.
But I've been told I have to see Tigerland.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Tigerland is awesome. And it's the only war-type movie that doesn't make my eyes glaze over.
Enemy at the Gate? Saving Private Ryan? Not so much.
-pH
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Yeah, I thought that list was an excellent Must See list.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I think the point is that if the swearing is so so prevelant that it distracts from the movie, it is not as good of a movie as it could have been.
A movie can be great with the coloring of the swearing or in spite of it, but no movie is great BECAUSE of it.
Can you believe that I've neve once noticed an abundance of swearing in that movie, and I've seen it several times?
See, this is why I cannot in any way relate to your feeling. I'd guess that to most young people in America, the amount of cursing in a movie does not "shock" us, and probably barely even registers on our radars.
The cursing in Donnie Darko wasn't to shock or upset the audience. It was to represent a fairly realistic representation of angry teenager dialog. You better believe that when I was an angry teenager, I cursed a ton.
If hearing an angry teen talk like an angry teen distracts from the movie for some, I'd put the "blame" squarely on the viewer.
To me that is like complaining about all the blood and guts in Saving Private Ryan. To say that it would be a better movie without it, and that it distracted you. Well, yeah, okay. It would be a better movie for you. Not for the rest of us.
And how could you call a movie overrated after 15 minutes? Good grief. Lets read the first chapter of Ender's Game and then go argue that the book stinks, shall we?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:You better believe that when I was an angry teenager, I cursed a ton.
When I was an angry teenager, I didn't. When my brother was an angry teenager, despite doing most other things the family dissaproved of, he didn't either.
"Blame"? I don't think any culpability needs to be assigned to anyone. It's not a crime or a sin to make an ineffective piece of art.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Except that it's not an ineffective piece of art. That's the point. It's just painting a picture that you don't like.
-pH
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
This is subjective.
It was ineffective. I have no idea what picture it was trying to paint. The language was so distracting it wasn't worth it.
There are a limited number of swear words and only one f-word. Using just one brush and one color of paint isn't an effective way to paint any picture unless you're Ellsworth Kelly.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:When I was an angry teenager, I didn't. When my brother was an angry teenager, despite doing most other things the family dissaproved of, he didn't either.
Considering the HUGE popularity of that film amongst young people, I'd imagine people like you and your brother were in the minority.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
I'd love to see a sweet little Tom Hanks-Meg Ryan type romantic comedy that's loaded with profanity and yet convincing, so that it doesn't come off sounding like a parody, as Tom pointed out a page ago. The c-word especially. To do it well would be extremely difficult, which would make it extremely worthwhile.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
I wasn't an angry teenager, and I'm not an angry adult, and yet I did, and still do, curse. Curses are just words that convey a certain meaning. That's all. And sometimes there's just nothing better to say in a given situation except for a curse word. Whether it's because of an inability to think of a more appropriate word, or for effect, or because it really happens to be the best word to convey a certain idea or feeling.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
If you only watched fifteen minutes of the movie, then there's no way you would know what picture it was trying to paint. I can't think of many movies that give you a full idea of what they're about in fifteen minutes. Except maybe Snakes on a Plane.
-pH
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I really like Donnie Darko. It's an excellent movie, IMHO. I'm sorry you didn't get to enjoy it, because there is very much there to enjoy.
Some of the things that really jar me and annoy me and sometimes offend me in movies are product placement and religious undertones. But I'm not gonna stop watching a movie because of them. I'll just say, "hmm, I really don't like that aspect, but the rest is good, so it's alright." But, ya know, to each his/her own.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:This is subjective.
It was ineffective.
You admit that it was subjective, and then you label it universally ineffective .
quote:I have no idea what picture it was trying to paint.
Then how can you claim it is a bad painting?
quote:The language was so distracting it wasn't worth it.
The language was distracting to you, not to millions of other young people who either identified with it or didn't mind it.
quote:There are a limited number of swear words and only one f-word. Using just one brush and one color of paint isn't an effective way to paint any picture unless you're Ellsworth Kelly.
If Donnie Darko as a character was supposed to be an eloquent speaker, this might be a valid point.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I just know I got Donnie Darko based on several gushing reccomendations and sat down one evening fully prepared the watch the whole thing. After fifteen minutes, it ceased being worth it and I turned it off. If it wasn't for the swearing, I wouldn't have done that.
I'm basing the rest of my opinion of it on a friend's summary of the movie rather than his opinion of it. He got me to appreciate Tool, so I think the dearth of awe is due to the movie. He even liked the movie, so there you go. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I think the key word here is subjective. Obviously, it was ineffective to kat, because the language was distracting to kat. Many other posters didn't find the language distracting at all. To them, it's not ineffective. People have different standards and tastes, and that's fine. Writers and directors know when they are making their movie that the choices they make about language, sex, violence, and many other things influence who will want to see their movie. They make the decisions that best fit a combination of their artistic vision and their need to sell tickets. It's unfair to say that a movie is bad because of all the swearing, or that if someone doesn't like it they have only themselves to blame. It's like the word kat is looking for to indicate someone doesn't like swearing without positive or negative connotations. Someone isn't polite or prissy because they get distracted by profanity in media. Others aren't immature or adult because it doesn't bother them, or they think it helps est the scene. It's a matter of personal taste. I'm not going to call a vegetarian restaurant ineffective at sating my hunger because I don't like mushrooms.
Added: I knew that by the time I finished this post it would be largely irrelevant.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are a limited number of swear words and only one f-word. Using just one brush and one color of paint isn't an effective way to paint any picture unless you're Ellsworth Kelly. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Donnie Darko as a character was supposed to be an eloquent speaker, this might be a valid point.
I meant the filmmakers.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But you're missing the point. The language in Donnie Darko was a part of his character. It's indicative of his character. It's not like the filmmakers were sitting in a room some where going, "Heh, heh....he said boob" and giggling like morons.
-pH
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
Donnie Darko not elequent???
Must I remind you of the Smurf tirade?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
. You could ask Katie how her experience has been here in town.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
And most shows don't have more than one or two characters like that even if they do exist. So I don't get how "modern tv" is supposed to have desensitized these words to such an extent.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
.