Officials at an elementary school south of Boston have banned kids from playing tag, touch football and any other unsupervised chase game during recess for fear they'll get hurt and hold the school liable.
Recess is "a time when accidents can happen," said Willett Elementary School Principal Gaylene Heppe, who approved the ban.
While there is no districtwide ban on contact sports during recess, local rules have been cropping up. Several school administrators around Attleboro, a city of about 45,000 residents, took aim at dodgeball a few years ago, saying it was exclusionary and dangerous. (Watch how second-grader Kelsey interpreted the rule -- 1:30)
Elementary schools in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and Spokane, Washington, also recently banned tag during recess. A suburban Charleston, South Carolina, school outlawed all unsupervised contact sports.
"I think that it's unfortunate that kids' lives are micromanaged and there are social skills they'll never develop on their own," said Debbie Laferriere, who has two children at Willett, about 40 miles south of Boston. "Playing tag is just part of being a kid."
Another Willett parent, Celeste D'Elia, said her son feels safer because of the rule. "I've witnessed enough near collisions," she said.
[ October 20, 2006, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: FlyingCow ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Oh wait, this is serious?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Oh...lord. What is wrong with people?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Soon children will be wrapped in bubblewrap in school.
The tough kid will be the one who pops his bubbles.
The *really* tough kid will be the one who pops his bubbles DURING CLASS! (he's scarey.)
Pix
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
This is just...so...so...stupid! There really is no other way to describe it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The school is not allowing kids to play tag for fear of being sued?
Clearly, the remedy is to sue the school for not allowing the kids to play tag. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
BRILLIANT! Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Red rover, red rover, send rivka right over!
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
We had Red Rover banned during elementary school recess. That was 1995, it's still banned at the school today. My whole class was playing one day (this was third grade) and the boys line stepped onto the basketball court, when a girl came running at them, they broke her through, and she fell onto the concrete and got a bad concussion. She spent about three days in the hospital.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Recess isn't politically correct anymore anyways. My wife's students only get around 10 minutes.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Can anyone fit tag-playing into their practice of religion?
Then banning it would be against the first amendment.... Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
In sue happy America, what other alternative does the school have?
If they have the parents sign waivers for their kids, it's undeniable that a kid who's parents didn't give permission will sneak into the group.
Don't get me wrong, I'm rather upset that this happened, but I really don't blame the school for coming to this conclusion, nor do I think this will be the end of it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I absolutely LOATHED Red Rover when I was a kid.
But tag was fun.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: Can anyone fit tag-playing into their practice of religion?
Then banning it would be against the first amendment....
Actually if tag was part of a religion, forching kids to play it I believe would be a violation of the constitution.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Why do kids need to be playing tag or chase at recess instead of other things?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
CT: So... what things are on your approved list of recess activities? Maybe we can set up a schedule so they kids know what they can and must play and for how long?
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Wallball is likely next on the list... and that makes me sad.
Edit: What else would they do? Slides are going to cause burns and scrapes if used wrong, the monkey bars are going to sprain a wrist or an ankle, and don't even get the lawyers drooling over what lawsuits the swingset might bring on!
Also, shouldn't we as a nation be ENCOURAGING our kids to run and other activities that may in fact be considered physical exertion?
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
I certainly don't think that they should have to play tag or chase at recess, but they should certainly be allowed to.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Recess is supposed to be unstructured time where kids can just play. Kids need to play!
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
...and I find it amusing that a link for Chrismukkah http://www.chrismukkah.com/ was at the bottom of the page...
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
This is slightly less silly than banning the body spray, which was my first thought, oddly enough. Maybe I watch too much tv.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Politically, and non-sueable Correct Recess Activities
10) Pulaties, or however you spell it. 9) Sit Quietly and meditate, but please no prayer. 8) Halo 2 7) Texas Holdem Poker. (they aren't just stealing your lunch money anymore--they are bluffing it out of you) 6) Target Practice with NRA provided semi-automatic rifles that are not to leave the shooting range so put that down now little Bobbie or its time out for you. 5) World of Warcraft 4) Cops and Robbers is replaced by Marines and Terrorists. 3) Senator Foley's special time for young men 2) Sexual Harrasment Un-Tag. See how close you can come to tagging the other person without getting hit with a sexual harrasment lawsuit.
and the number 1, Presidentially sponsored, administratevly approved recess game is.....
1) Waterboarding (see, its not torture, its fun.)
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I remember teachers yelling, "No running on the playgroud!" when I was a kid. That was a long, long time ago. Back in the good ol' days, even.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
When exactly were these good ol' days that you speak of? My good ol'days were back in the 70's and many activities that involved running were encouraged.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
Frisco, I'm right with you. I thought they meant the body spray as well. But seriously, banning tag? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. It really scares me to think what our country is coming to lately.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
The ban tag so next year they can complain our children are even fatter.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
I moved to South of Boston area (though not this area) and I have to say that my 2nd grader gets one recess (15 minutes I believe) after lunch. There is no play equipment other than spray painted hopscotch, and four square lines on the hard top. There aren't very many games they are allowed to play (I've suggested taking marbles, skipping ropes...only to be told they aren't allowed). Incidentally, he gets P.E. once a week. (He is allowed to take his own soccer ball but there are no balls provided.)
I researched this for one of my Elementary Ed classes when I was still in school and what I found was that kids have an increased tendancy to perform better when they have physical activity several times a day.
I have a problem with the limited amounts of movement that my kids have in school.
kmboots, I remember that too, but running (for us) was permitted in the big grassy areas.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Mine were back in the 70's, too. Maybe our teachers were just more strict - or lazier. And this was on a blacktop playground. At the school where there was grass, kids could run. Of course, we also had "dangerous" playground stuff like jungle gyms and merry-go-rounds and swings.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
not to mention the teeter totters...
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
I remember when being a kid meant falling down at some point. Heck, those scrapes and bruises were a mark of honor.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Look into www.rescuingrecess.com to see how people are going about rescuing recess. I can't vouch for the site myself, but I have been to Cartoon Networks "Rescueing Recess" web site back a couple of weeks, and they suggested it.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: We had Red Rover banned during elementary school recess.
The "injury" banning for Red Rover is in fact a cover story. The real reason it was band was because not only does it involve holding hands, it encourages same-sex hand holding!
The truth is revealed!
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
When I read it, it was just a very funny article... now it's a little closer to truth.
An excerpt:
quote:But Williams and his fellow wusses aren't stopping at dodgeball. In their Physical Education Hall of Shame they've also included duck-duck-goose and musical chairs. Seriously. So, if we give them dodgeball, you can look for these games to be banned next:
Tag. Referring to any child as it is demeaning and hurtful. Instead of the child hollering, "You're it!" we recommend, "You're special!"
Red Rover. Inappropriate labeling of children as animals. Also, the use of the word red evokes Communist undertones.
Sardines. Unfairly leaves one child alone at the end as the loser -- a term psychologists have deemed unacceptable.
Hide-and-seek. No child need hide or be sought. The modern child runs free in search of himself.
Baseball. Involves wrong-headed notions of stealing, errors and gruesome hit-and-run. Players should always be safe, never out.
Hopscotch. Sounds vaguely alcoholic, not to mention demeaning to our friends of Scottish ancestry.
Marbles. Winning others' marbles is overly capitalistic.
Marco Polo. Mocks the blind.
Capture the flag. Mimics war.
Kick the can. Unfair to the can.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: I have to say that my 2nd grader gets one recess (15 minutes I believe) after lunch.
Wow. That's terrible.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
This is idiotic and short-sighted, but considering the stories I hear from my mother and other teachers I know, the real problem is parents; parents who had their childhood so structured that they make absurd demands of schools [EDIT: for their children]. There's one example in particular that just completely floors me, every time I think of it.
In fact, in my mother's school, hardly anyone allows their kids to walk to school... The same school I walked to starting at age 7/8. It's sad... They had to build a new "drop-off" area for parents to leave/pick up their kids. What a waste of money.
-Bok
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
See, this is one of the reasons I'm not nor do I aspire to be a school administrator of any kind. I'm stubborn enough that if I were in charge and someone brought a lawsuit against my school/district/whatever for an injury incurred while playing tag...man, I'd bankrupt the school/district/whatever fighting that lawsuit.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
quote:Mine were back in the 70's, too. Maybe our teachers were just more strict - or lazier. And this was on a blacktop playground. At the school where there was grass, kids could run. Of course, we also had "dangerous" playground stuff like jungle gyms and merry-go-rounds and swings.
I remember all of that "dangerous" playground equipment too. I fail to recall a single incident at any of my three elementry schools where someone got a serious injury on that playground equipment. I went to elementry school in Rhode Island for K-2, West Virginia for 3-6, and Indiana for the last half of 6th grade, and running during recess and "dangerous" playground equipment were central parts of recess in all of those schools.
I seem to recall first hearing about how dangerous playground equipment supposedly was when my younger sisters were going through elementry school in the mid 80's. If anything has changed to make playground equipment more dangerous it is probably less maintenance of the equipment and less adult supervision.
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
My first reflexive thought when I read this: That's great. They can ban tag, but so many school districts keep saying they can't do anything about bullying because it's just "kids being kids".
Second impression: I wonder what they would have done with Socko, which we played constantly both at recess and during Phys. Ed. in fifth and sixth grades. Socko was basically dodgeball on steroids. Instead of standing in a circle as with dodgeball, there was a court much like a soccer field, except on the blacktop. It started out with one goalie on each end and his team all in the court at the opposite end of the court as their goalie. Using a hard orange ball the size of a soccer ball, one goalie threw as hard as possible at the team between him and his team. If the ball hit you and you couldn't catch it, you were out and had to join your goalie at the end of the court. The ball changed hands to the other team whenever someone was put out. The last team with a member or members left inside the court was the winner.
We had great fun with this game, and as far as I can recall, no one got hurt. But the ball was hard and to play the game correctly you had to throw the ball as hard as you could. School officials today would have kittens.
You know, we live in a society that a) wants no children, just a bunch of miniature adults and 2) is scared to death that someone is going to have some fun.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
My school banned throwing snowballs, which we thought a great injustice. We had a target set up in the winter months, though, and you were allowed to throw snowballs at that, but not at people, even if you had agreed beforehand to have a snowball war.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
We had a set of rainbow bars that a kid broke his arm on once when he slipped. The reaction? His parents told him to be more careful on the rainbow bars next time.
When did it all become the school's fault?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
As an incidental aside, I never knew you could play dodgeball any other way than what lma describes, though we called it cannonball. I've always thought that's what you lot were referring to when you said 'dodgeball'. How curious.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: CT: So... what things are on your approved list of recess activities? Maybe we can set up a schedule so they kids know what they can and must play and for how long?
*smile
I was asking a question, not challenging you. It was an honest question.
I don't have an approved list of recess activities. I am just asking why tag and chase are an important part of recess.
---
Edited to add: I detect a note of scorn or impatient anger in your question, and I'm not sure how to respond to that effectively, other than to just restate my initial question. You are invited to read it in a voice of mild befuddlement, if that makes it go down any easier. Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
CT: becuase children like to play them. Because we all played them since the dawn of time. And because people go on and on about how fat our kids are getting and chase games burn calories.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: CT: becuase children like to play them. Because we all played them since the dawn of time. And because people go on and on about how fat our kids are getting and chase games burn calories.
So, you are saying that these games in particular are important to keep because:
1) this is something kids want to do, and 2) these activities burn calories.
Am I understanding you correctly? Is there anything else I'm missing? (Honest questions, once again.)
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
It's also harmless and a tradition.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Tag is one of the few active games that I still see kids playing; many of the games I played as a child are nowhere to be seen when I visit a school during recess. I don't know if they're now discouraged or kids just never learned them and don't know how to play them. Balls, jump ropes and other equipment, which were in short supply when I was in school, seem practically non-existent now. It seems pretty stupid to me to ban one of the few active games kids can still and still want to play, and then complain that America's children are getting obese.
As for the "unsupervised" part, what are they talking about? Every recess I remember, we had a minimum of one teacher and two teacher aides on the field, usually more. They didn't direct the games, but it was enough to keep kids from playing too rough or otherwise doing dangerous things or breaking the rules. I have personally, when I worked in an after-school care center, supervised groups of 40 or more kids between the first and eighth grades alone when someone called in sick and someone else had a family emergency and had to leave or something more than once, and I was able to successfully keep an eye on everyone at once. So I would say that if kids are watched just enough to ensure a safe level of play, nothing too rough, they can be active and still not injure anyone. (The key is to immediately isolate anyone who's playing too rough, sit them down for a few minutes, and let them take a little break before you allow them back to the game. Some kids just need several warnings/reminders before they learn how carefully they need to watch themselves to ensure they don't start playing too rough.)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Okay. So, I take it that these are the following qualities which are important & relevant for tag and chase games:
1) liked by kids 2) burns calories 3) harmless 4) has a tradition
Regardless of whether all of these accrue to tag and other games of cha[s]e as always played, they don't seem to pick out just these activities, no? (Just asking, not making a point.)
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
See, to me, recess is the equivalent of "free time" for kids. It's "play time" - time for them to get outside, burn off some energy, build a sense of camaraderie, engage in social activities with their peers, etc.
To step in and tell them "you can't play X" is just silly.
It's not like they're saying "you can't run around and hit each other with baseball bats" - that's understandable. There are rules on the playground, of course.
They are saying "you can't chase each other around at all". It's not just tag, but touch football and any other game where one child chases another.
So, if recess is loosely supervised free play time, what are these kids supposed to play? Structured team-based games only, like kickball and basketball?
I can't imagine my childhood without freeze tag, tag, manhunt or touch football. The only other games that were ever played were "ledge" (a version of wallball or horse with a tennis ball), kickball, and basketball. And with a limited number of balls, the last two were mostly standing around waiting to play.
No chase games? That's just absurd. Might as well ask them to walk slowly around in circles every day for recess... they could call it "kiddie nascar" or something.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Man, schools would freak if Ultimate Frisbee was ever picked up by elementary level kids.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:So, if recess is loosely supervised free play time, what are these kids supposed to play? Structured team-based games only, like kickball and basketball?
Which would leave a LOT of kids like me who hated most games and sports but would occasionally join in a tag or other "chase" game with my friends (as well as the more occasional hand-clapping, circle, jump rope, or hop-scotch game-- I am, after all, a girl) sitting on the sidelines doing much less active activities most recesses.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
littlemissattitude, you played dodgeball in a circle?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Yeah, when I was growin gup, it was only guys who played kickball and basketball - and the more athletic/coordinated guys at that. The chase games were more girl dominated, though they also included the more impatient guys who didn't want to sit around and wait for a spot playing basketball or wait for their turn playing kickball.
...or the early bloomers who wanted to spend more time with the girls.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I was thinking the same thing, mack. From where I come from, there were two variations. One was two sides, and each side was throwing balls at the same time. You got hit, you were out. You catch the ball, the tosser was out.
The other version was basically all the competitors in the middle between two sets of tossers. That one was tricky, since the ball could come from different directions!
-Bok
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Yeah, we played the first version you mentioned, Bok.
Where I grew up, both boys and girls played kickball (no basketball court) and four square. Though, I did go to small elementary schools, so the mixing of the genders might've been due to low numbers. *shrug*
Did anyone else play TV tag?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I'd say kickball was 80/20 guys to girls. Some of the more athletic girls played kickball with the guys, but they were the minority. Those girls were also the most likely to be either on the varsity soccer or softball teams in high school.
Edit: Holy cow.. yeah, we played TV tag... though don't ask me to explain it anymore. That was a looong time ago.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
When I lived in Malaysia all we did during recess was football (soccer) and touch football. I definately sustained my share of cuts and bruises but I definately think it showed me the virtues of an active lifestyle.
The last thing little kids need is more of their high active lifestyle chipped at. Kids are going to be stuck bascially doing the same things they did in the classroom during recess. Probability studies turn into D&D games at recess (oh wait thats not that bad)
But seriously kids NEED to get out and stretch and have some fun outside of the classroom, its just wrong to try and coddle them this way. Not that you can defer to children for everything but could you even find one kid who wishes they didnt play during recess and instead did only non active activities?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
We always played dodgeball in a circle.
We played TV tag, too, although I remember no details. Our favorite, though, was State Tag, on the painted map of the U.S. (that, I can explain the rules for. )
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
We had recess and p.e. every day. And for the younger kids, recess had (in addition to the dangerous jungle gyms and curly slides) a little cement track to race the tricycles they also had sitting around. Just imagine if someone had sued for his child's little toes getting run over.
People make me sad.
-pH
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
TV tag was just like freeze tag, but instead of unfreezing people with "Hot Chocolate!" you had to say the name of a TV show that hadn't been said yet.
If tag is bad, I imagine one of the things we did in...2nd grade I think, where certain girls tried to stamp on your feet and vice-versa would be right out.
---
I posted not that long ago about a story where I ended up losing about a half inch of my finger because someone slammed a door on it at a Cub Scout meeting and someone reacting to that (not on Hatrack) by asking me "Did you sue anyone over that?" I am not suprised by the school feeling that they needed to do this to protect themselves from lawsuits. I lament it though.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
A lot of you seem to be blaming the schools or the teachers, as if we want to take away the kids' childhoods. While I agree that banning tag is stupid, the blame belongs on the people who have contributed to the litigiousness of our society. I don't think you have any sense of how often schools get sued. It's not uncommon for teachers to be sued individually as well. The colleague and friend who introduced me to Cor was sued personally because she was the nearest teacher when a student horsing around on a railing after school fell and broke his arm. The kid fell a total of four feet, and his rich parents sued her because she should have seen him playing and stopped him. Some of you may remember the parent who was threatening to sue me three and a half years ago. Many people see unfortunate occurrences as an opportunity, to buy a new car or payoff the mortgage or retire early. So go easy on the school: they don't have an option that is "right," and they're picking the one that at least doesn't take away the money they need for materials, staff, and overhead.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That's right! I remember now! (Although we didn't play that you could unfreeze people with Hot Chocolate in Freeze Tag.) I always hated that game because I was only allowed to watch Mr. Rogers and sometimes a PBS National Geographic special, so I didn't know many tv show names.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
On the other hand, I am entirely in favor of banning Tag Body Spray in schools.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:This is idiotic and short-sighted, but considering the stories I hear from my mother and other teachers I know, the real problem is parents; parents who had their childhood so structured that they make absurd demands of schools [EDIT: for their children]. There's one example in particular that just completely floors me, every time I think of it.
Bingo.
Or more accurately, the real problem is fear. Many parents are afraid of things to a degree that harms their kids more than it protects them.
quote:Okay. So, I take it that these are the following qualities which are important & relevant for tag and chase games:
1) liked by kids 2) burns calories 3) harmless 4) has a tradition
More important than any of these is this: What message do we send kids if their school tells them that tag is too dangerous to play? If I were the student, I would conclude that my school is crazy, has no idea about what is or is not dangerous, and has zero concern for my happiness. Later, when the same school system tells me "Drugs are too dangerous to use" I probably would NOT be inclined to take their word for what is safe and what is not.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
My elementary school banned that breath spray, Binaca or whatever.
-pH
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
My elementry school banned pogs and cards of any kind.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
You're right, Ic, in that the school is not really to blame here.
Granted, something as silly as this should have been fought. What would they do if parents wanted paper banned because it causes paper cuts? Or if parents wanted all science experiments banned because of the risks involved?
A line needs to be drawn somewhere, and a harmless game like tag is far past where the line should have been drawn.
Personally, I feel that a frivolous lawsuit like this would (at least should) be thrown out of court. I'd love to see a judge go even further and say that the people who brought the frivolous lawsuit would have to pay for the school's legal fees, as well. Maybe it would cut down on the nonsense lawsuits schools live in fear of.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think ours banned Pogs, but not cards. We used to play spit before school all the time.
And Sim City.
And that game on those old Apple IIc's with the moon jumping car thing.
-pH
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Let's ban writing implements. They're pointy.
-pH
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:My elementry school banned pogs and cards of any kind.
quote:My elementary school banned that breath spray, Binaca or whatever.
Mine banned both of those and also midriff shirts, tank tops with straps less than two inches, wallet chains, and open-toed or -heeled shoes. Oh, and cinnamon toothpicks.
And as it turned out the boys who were the main purveyors of cinnamon toothpicks were involved in the bombs that were planted at my Jr. HS. I wonder what the relationship was...
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:
quote: Okay. So, I take it that these are the following qualities which are important & relevant for tag and chase games:
1) liked by kids 2) burns calories 3) harmless 4) has a tradition
More important than any of these is this: What message do we send kids if their school tells them that tag is too dangerous to play? If I were the student, I would conclude that my school is crazy, has no idea about what is or is not dangerous, and has zero concern for my happiness. Later, when the same school system tells me "Drugs are too dangerous to use" I probably would NOT be inclined to take their word for what is safe and what is not.
I understand that you are trying to make a point, Tresopax. Note, though, that I was not doing the same by asking the question. I was -- yes, really and truly -- trying to understand why people (some or all) were upset at losing these particular games.
Now, if you want to object to placing such restrictions on recess activity, that is surely your perogative. My list isn't relevant in the way that you have used it as a springboard for a separate discussion, though, [at least not without confounding several issues].
I do understand now that it isn't (for many, it seems) so much an attachment to these particular games as the broader issue of when and where to be restricting kids' activities. That makes more sense as an emotional issue for me, so I'm glad to have asked the question.
Carry on.
[ October 18, 2006, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I want details, please.
My feeling, as a teacher, is that the game of tag, which everyone feels is a benign game, perhaps got out of control.
How?
"Tagging" becomes pushing down. "Touch" football, same thing.
Those trading cards? They were banned because kids got out of control with those, too, stealing them, trading during class, threatening each other.
SOmetimes, I am sorry to say, it is actually the kids who are misbehaving, and it is not the school's fault, the society's fault, or the school's fault. It is the fault of development, and the fact that kisd without any boundaries tend to act like a group of wild kittens on catnip.
Tag is not banned at our school, but recess is in a parking lot. If too many kids came into the nurse with pavement burn, I am sure tag would be banned.
And I am not sure why childhood has to be a time when you get hurt just to prove you are a child.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Elizabeth, I can understand the concern. But if kids are regularly pushing each other too roughly, maybe they're not being adequately supervised, because, as I said, I have always found that removing the kid doing the pushing calms the game right back down, and eventually kids learn to play more gently.
I actually have no problems with any of the things banned at my school. The administrators had legitimate reasons for all of them. But banning a game like tag seems like a last-resort thing to me. Now, if they had tried other solutions and they did not work, then I am wrong and I have no problem with them keeping kids safe any way they have to. But I think that banning something like tag should be a last resort, not an automatic "oh, this is too rough, let's ban it for good" response.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Well, aside from that, kids DO get hurt as part of childhood. Kids fall out of trees. They fall off their bikes. They hurt themselves learning to roller skate. I don't think that means we shouldn't let kids do any of these things.
-pH
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I really think this is nuts.
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
Mac...yeah, in a circle. I don't remember ever playing it any other way.
And, as far as who played what, Flying Cow, everybody played everything. Except nobody every played football in elementary school. I don't even recall there being any footballs around. And, when I was in elementary school, soccer hadn't yet started to be a "thing" here in the States, so we didn't play that, either. But, kickball, dodgeball, volleyball, tetherball, basketball...both girls and boys played, and as far as I can recall, we always played together.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
My nerdy friends and I used to play a game that we were sent out into space and shrunk to check out a miniature planet, except that the miniature planet had normal-sized killer insects which were huge and gigantic in comparison to our miniaturized selves. We had very elaborate storylines.
...we were weird.
-pH
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I agree, Icarus, that there is a great deal of blame on those members of our society who are extremely litigous (sp?). In fact, I'd say that at least 3/4 of the blame (a convservative estimate) lies with those people.
I just wish there were also more people willing to dig in their heels and say, "I don't care if this ruins me, I'm not going to stand for this horse crap." I think if there were (it's just a hope, really) perhaps more people would be more continually aware of how big a problem such a sue-happy society is, instead of only when a new story comes out, they get (briefly) outraged, and then go on with their lives.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Elizabeth, if "tagging" becomes "pushing", then the ones doing the pushing should be taken aside, or held out of recess - or have some other punishment. The whole group shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few.
If that were the case, the fight between Miami and FIU would be cause for banning football entirely - which would be pretty knee-jerk.
It always seems strange to me the reaction to ban a mostly benign activity because of the actions of the few who take things too far, or who abuse the system. The offenders should be targetted, not the activity.
littlemissattitude, I guess we were just more naturally segregated. It's not that girls weren't allowed to play certain sports - they just weren't interested. Basketball was a very competitive thing at recess, mostly played by older boys - though the rare girl did play, and usually ended up a starter on the varsity girls basketball squad by high school.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:I just wish there were also more people willing to dig in their heels and say, "I don't care if this ruins me, I'm not going to stand for this horse crap."
That's really hard to say when you've got a family that depends on your paycheck. I know you know that, but it needed to be stated. it's not like the right for kids at their school to play tag is a moral issue for most administrators.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
The thing is that these "sue happy" parents have got to be out there somewhere, but I have yet to meet one. Maybe I'm sheltered.
This thread is helping me realize that I need to make a bigger effort to get to those parent council meetings.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Man, I asked my kids about recess and confirmed what I already thought - my children don't have recess at school. They have physical education which is structured and usually takes place in the gym. I asked Emily "So you don't get to go to the playground and just play at all?" and she said "Oh yeah we do - at least once a week! On Fridays we get to go to the playground instead of the gym."
So it looks like tag is a non-issue at my school, because they don't even get unstructured play time, well except on Fridays.
No wonder my kids love to play outside when they get home, they've been cooped up indoors all day.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:From where I come from, there were two variations. One was two sides, and each side was throwing balls at the same time. You got hit, you were out. You catch the ball, the tosser was out.
When I went to New York a few months ago I was informed by my buddies that there's a park in Brooklyn that has dodgeball games like this on Sundays. The same park has free concerts and other activities going on all day Sunday. It was rainy when we went and I had an unbelievably good time.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Okay. So, I take it that these are the following qualities which are important & relevant for tag and chase games:
1) liked by kids 2) burns calories 3) harmless 4) has a tradition
Regardless of whether all of these accrue to tag and other games of cha[s]e as always played, they don't seem to pick out just these activities, no? (Just asking, not making a point.)
Another thing that makes this outrageous is that it's a GOOD THING for kids to get hurt--just a little--from time to time.
If kids never fall and go "ouch! Gee, I should slow down/ be more careful/ not jump off the top of the monkey bars" then they won't have a chance to learn that sometimes being alive hurts, and you have to be careful. But don't be so careful that you miss out on all the fun.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Hank, I refer you to my 02:24 post.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Elizabeth, if "tagging" becomes "pushing", then the ones doing the pushing should be taken aside, or held out of recess - or have some other punishment. The whole group shouldn't be punished for the actions of a few."
You are assuming that it is one or two kids who are being rough. You are assuming that the game has not BECOME pushing. You are assuming that all kids can play this type of game without getting out of control.
What I am asking for is more details about this situation. I do not think it is because we are a lawsuit-happy society, though that may be part of it. I sense there might be more to the story.
And yes, kids get hurt. So do adults. But the feeling I am getting from many of the responses here is that we should let them do things that get them hurt. My son;s best friend fell out of our tree and broke his arm. There is no more tree climbing in our yard.
A student of mine lost his brother to a whirlpool this summer, because kids were swimming in an off limits section of the river.
My job as an adult is to stop kids from doing dangerous things. If I saw a game of tag getting out of control(and I could bet it would be more than one or two kids out of control), I would end the game.
So, um, sue me.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Tag is one of very few games that is easy for the kids to organize on their own and doesn't require any planning.
All you have to do to start a game of tag is tag someone and yell, "You're it!" Is there any other game that is that simple to play?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:My son;s best friend fell out of our tree and broke his arm. There is no more tree climbing in our yard.
From my perspective, breaking an arm isn't really that big a deal. If that's all there is, that at one point this kid fell out and broke his arm, if it's not that you have trees that are dangerous to climb, I disgree with that decision.
I think that your job as a parent isn't to stop kids from doing dangerous things. That's both impossible and horribly limiting. Kids need to and will do dangerous things. It's one of the big ways they learn.
Your job is to try to keep them away from the things that are too dangerous. Or that's at least my opinion.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I just have one thing to add before I run from this thread:
You're
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.
IT! Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
MrSquicky, The way I see it, your job is not to tell me what my job as a parent is.
And the famous quote from the best friend to his doctor was:
"Today is my lucky day! I broke my arm to save my neck!"
(The fall was worth it for that alone, I must say.)
We had freedom to roam as kids. We roamed near fast flowing rivers. We climbed in old barns, on rooftops, up the sides of buildings. And because I did those things, my kids, under my watch, will not.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
If the game has *become* pushing, then it was let go for far too long. When I was teaching, a classroom didn't *become* pushing - though I saw several that developed into that over the course of the year.
*All* kids can't play any game without getting out of control - those that have control problems, though, should be either a) more closely monitored (even to the point of a personal aide), or b) not put into unstructured play situations. There are always students who have a hard time keeping in control, and those students need special attention.
Everything always starts with one or two students. The game of tag is simple enough - until one person decides to push someone to the ground. If they see that's okay, they'll do it again. And then maybe another student will do it. And perhaps another. If left unchecked, it can get out of hand.
But at the outset, unless you are at a school for students with emotional control problems or an alternative school for students removed from a standard classroom setting, the majority of kids are not violent.
As much as teachers must pay close attention to classroom management, recess monitors must pay close attention to playground management. Those students who break the rules or play too roughly must be dealt with - otherwise, if their behavior is not addressed, it becomes accepted, and then the norm.
Still, this is not a reason to ban a benign activity. You can set parameters, sure. For instance, the school might say that pushing will not be allowed, and if students push they will stay inside for recess for a week - or even have to sit against a wall for recess for a week. Or maybe a day for first offenses, and a week for second, and so on.
It's the negative behavior that must be addressed, not a benign game that's become the outlet for the negative behavior.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:My son's best friend fell out of our tree and broke his arm. There is no more tree climbing in our yard.
Far be it from me to tell someone else how to run their household, but I'm very glad my parents didn't have a similar policy. It seems awfully restrictive. I think minor and even semi-major bumps and bruises are an integral and valuable part of growing up.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I got smacked in the head with a golf club by my little brother when I was four. I had to be rushed to the hospital gushing blood. My parents didn't ban golf. I'm glad. My brother's now a decent golfer, and I'm a semi-okay one.
-pH
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Mack, we played dodgeball in a circle too. It involved a bunch of people in the middle trying to avoid the people on the outside circle hitting them. I didn't know that people played it any other way until recently. In high school we'd play the variation with people on either side, but it wasn't called dodgeball.
Anyone play Toilet Tag? When you got tagged you had to squat and put your hand out like a flusher. Then someone hit your hand and you were back in the game.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I wonder about people who want to protect their kids from any and all possibility from harm (not saying that's you - Elizabeth, just speaking about other people that seem to have that mentality) For example, when I was talking about how much fun I had at my daughter's gymnastics meet pulling for her, a classmate of mine at college told me she couldn't believe I let my child participate in such a "dangerous" sport. Didn't I know kids got hurt tumbling?
I said, yep, I knew it. This year she's had sprained ankles, tons of bruises, blisters and "rips" on her hands, and scariest of all - a whiplash injury from falling off the uneven bars and her neck whipping back and contacting the mat. The woman was horrified. How could I let my kid continue in something so dangerous?
I told her that she seemed to have a mindset that I would not be able to change or convince otherwise, but that my husband and I both believed it was worth the risk for all the positives and that we weren't the types that believed in wrapping our kids in bubble wrap and leaving them home where they were safe.
If I ever felt her life were threatened, then sure I'd intervene. But I'm not going to stop her from experiencing the joy of accomplishment and working hard toward a goal and the lessons that competitive sports will teach her just because she may get banged up along the way. In fact the proudest I've been of her this year hasn't been when she's won medals, but the times she's fallen in competition and picked herself up off the mat and continued, even through pain. Last Saturday she slipped off the bars and fell, hard. She got up and finished, then walked off the mat and burst into tears, clutching her elbow - she landed on the elbow, with a hard impact (ouch, it makes mine twinge just thinking about it) but she held those tears until she finished her competitive routine. That's a lesson - perseverance through adversity - that can't be learned any other way than just doing it.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Climbing trees was one of my two favorite activities as a kid.
The other was burn ball*.
:-\
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
*Burn ball was a game we played against a wall with a tennis ball or, if we were lucky, a raquetball. The ball was thrown against the wall, and then caught after bouncing off. If you attempted to catch the ball, touched it, and dropped it, you had to run and tag the wall. In the time it took you to reach the wall, you were fair game: anybody could grab the ball and peg you with it. If you got pegged on three seperate occasions, then you had to stand against the wall, facing it, while--depending on the rules you had agreed to, sometimes it was the first three kids who called it, and sometimes it was every other kid in the game--got to take a shot at you. I played that game pretty much every day after school for six years. Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
We played that too Ic!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
We called burn ball, but we called it walley ball. Also, there was nothing that happened if you got hit three times, except that you got hit three times.
That was a *great* game.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
This is a little bit different, but I was a camp counselor for what feels like ever... We played (when I was a camper) and taught (and still played with the kids) our campers all these games and other ones like blob tag, indian pin, capture the flag, frisbee golf, all SORTS of games that involve throwing objects, chasing people, touching people, singling someone out. To think - the inconsiderate parents that sent their kids actually PAID for it!!!
I guess all that good I thought I was doing having a fun time and teaching the next generations how to play with each other was really a disservice. Wonder why I don’t feel bad about it?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Anyone remember Spud?
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
Yup... I actually broke my foot playing that during a captain's practice for softball in high school. Still love the game and didn't even think about suing anyone.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
Such a great ad, I think every New Zealander knew instantly what the game was and we had a good time reminiscing. I think it was very good marketing of Adidas. I think bullrush is now banned in NZ schools. Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Icarus-
I've been trying this whole thread to think of the name of that game. We called it the same thing as mph though- wally ball, and you did have to face the fall to take the hits.
Between that and Bloody Knuckles with a quarter, we'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen now days.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: We had a target set up in the winter months, though,
Does Norway have any other kinds of months? Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
We'll need to have a Hatrack adult burnball game at the next Con . . .
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
You just wanna hit me with a tennis ball Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Yes.
Or a raquetball.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
How about rock-paper-scissors? I can feel the burning red skin of my wrist just thinking about it.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
*Throws snow-encrusted rock ball at BQT*
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
o_O Liz, how'd you get red burning skin on your wrist from rock-paper-scissors?!
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:We had freedom to roam as kids. We roamed near fast flowing rivers. We climbed in old barns, on rooftops, up the sides of buildings. And because I did those things, my kids, under my watch, will not.
If they were allowed to do it, it wouldn't be fun anymore. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:o_O Liz, how'd you get red burning skin on your wrist from rock-paper-scissors?!
When you lose, you take licks. Everyone knows that. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm afraid to ask, but what?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The loser holds out his wrist, and the winner smacks it with two fingers.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You people are VIOLENT.
TSK!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: The loser holds out his wrist, and the winner smacks it with two fingers over and over again until he breaks it.
Really, I don't see why people want to ban all these games.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
A group of my friends go out into the woods at night and play lightsaber tag - reds vs. greens. Great fun.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: You people are VIOLENT.
TSK!
Violence is only a problem when it's used inappropriately. Just like nonviolence.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
True. Beating on your "friend" because they lost at paper-scissors-stone == inappropriate use of violence.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I think that there are some games which are more dangerous than others. Climbing high up in a tree brings with it an element of risk. Playing tag does not.
If tag has become a rough game, then it's not tag anymore. Red Rover banned I can understand, it's specifically a contact game. However, tag is not a "contact" game.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Please. That's not violent. Shot-for-shot is violent and I used to play that all the time. Heck, I expect my sons (when I have them) to play it, too.
We called burn ball suicide, because that's what you had to yell out when you touched the wall. Yeah, there's no way that'd go today.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The kids at the daycare I worked at taught me a really fun Filipino game that was going around the school called "ABC." The whole object of the game is basically an excuse to slap each other on the arm.
quote:Still, this is not a reason to ban a benign activity. You can set parameters, sure. For instance, the school might say that pushing will not be allowed, and if students push they will stay inside for recess for a week - or even have to sit against a wall for recess for a week. Or maybe a day for first offenses, and a week for second, and so on.
Yup, that's what we did when games got too rough-- put kids on the wall. First time in a day, they got to sit there for five minutes. Second time, ten (or twenty if they were older.) Third time, they were banned from playing tag for the rest of the day. It really, really worked.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: We used to play this game:
Such a great ad, I think every New Zealander knew instantly what the game was and we had a good time reminiscing. I think it was very good marketing of Adidas. I think bullrush is now banned in NZ schools.
We played that game in rugby practice. Lots of fun. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
If Tag is banned at these schools, does that mean that the last kid tagged will be It forever? What will that do to his self-esteem?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I always liked four square and Olly Olly Oxen Free.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
quote:We played that game in rugby practice. Lots of fun. [Smile]
Wow! Rugby playing Americans are a rare breed!
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
This thread brings back memories and I'm only talking about the early 90s so I don't know how recess has been destroyed so quickly.
When I was in elementary school, I remember being told we weren't allowed to sit out on the playground. We could sit on the blacktop and play games (remember those sing-songs games girls would play) or we could sit in the sandbox and build something. There were benches but they were for teachers only. If we were just sitting, a teacher would walk up to us and suggest a game or activity. If you refused, you were promptly marched over to the slide or jungle gym and ordered to "have fun." Those teachers wanted us tired enough to quietly sit through class.
I remember hand-stand contests where we all learned the value of NOT falling on our heads. I remember contests to see who could jump furthest out of the swing. They got strict on that in my last years but I earned my fair share of sand-filled scabs.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
It's like the Lawyers have taken over the world. We let them roam free, and now they're overpopulated, and fighting for scarce resources.
What we need is something that preys on lawyers, to restore the natural balance of the world.
I vote for Hyenas.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:True. Beating on your "friend" because they lost at paper-scissors-stone == inappropriate use of violence.
Even when that's an understood part of the game? In the context of an American football game, is tackling a quarterback an inappropriate use of violence?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: It's like the Lawyers have taken over the world. We let them roam free, and now they're overpopulated, and fighting for scarce resources.
What we need is something that preys on lawyers, to restore the natural balance of the world.
I vote for Hyenas.
I waver back and forth about whether or not the loser of a lawsuit should pay the legal expenses of the other side. While it would definitely cut back on frivolous lawsuits, it would make it that much harder for poor people to bring lawsuits.
On the other hand, even beyond lawsuits, and though it's never been suggested that I know of, it would be kidn of interesting to implement in criminal cases. If the state can't prove someone is guilty, they pay their legal expenses....
[ October 19, 2006, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:I waver back and forth about whether or not the loser of a lawsuit should pay the legal expenses of the other side. While, it would definitely cut back on frivolous lawsuits, it would make it that much harder for poor people to bring lawsuits.
I don't think this should be for every lawsuit. I do think it should be for frivolous lawsuits that are thrown out of court without a trial.
For instance, if you sue the school because your darling Bobby collided with his friend Billy while playing tag, a judge should dismiss the case and rule that the plaintiff should pay all legal fees incurred by the defendent.
I might even go farther and say that lawyers who accept cases that get thrown out should not receive any payment for their services.
It would make people think twice about bringing silly lawsuits that have no merit - and would make lawyers more hesitant to accept frivolous lawsuits.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: Yup, that's what we did when games got too rough-- put kids on the wall.
That seems awfully cruel with Icarus and all his friends throwing balls at them. I'm sure they behave after that, though.
Is tetherball allowed anymore? We used to play that a lot, but me and everyone else got smacked in the face once in a while.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: For instance, if you sue the school because your darling Bobby collided with his friend Billy while playing tag, a judge should dismiss the case and rule that the plaintiff should pay all legal fees incurred by the defendent.
By the way, it's not just the school and the teacher that gets sued. At this moment, at my daughters' school, the family of one child is suing the family of another because he got "hurt" (mildly) during some consensual rough-housing.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: True. Beating on your "friend" because they lost at paper-scissors-stone == inappropriate use of violence.
I disagree. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
And it's not just suing, either. Teachers get fired and are investigated by DCF if children get 'hurt'.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: At this moment, at my daughters' school, the family of one child is suing the family of another because he got "hurt" (mildly) during some consensual rough-housing.
Do you know what they're suing for? Is it just medical expenses, if any, or are they claiming mental anquish, etc?
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: It's like the Lawyers have taken over the world. We let them roam free, and now they're overpopulated, and fighting for scarce resources.
What we need is something that preys on lawyers, to restore the natural balance of the world.
I vote for Hyenas.
You don't eat your own.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:True. Beating on your "friend" because they lost at paper-scissors-stone == inappropriate use of violence.
Even when that's an understood part of the game? In the context of an American football game, is tackling a quarterback an inappropriate use of violence?
Why should it be? Lots of us grew up playing the game without that little addendum, and I dare say had just as much fun. Without hitting people.
And don't get me started on football.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*tackles Rivka*
*Does triumphant 'in your face' dance*
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
*flags Storm Saxon 15 yards for taunting*
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:Do you know what they're suing for? Is it just medical expenses, if any, or are they claiming mental anquish, etc?
Two true, if unnerving, stories. Both point to the absurd litigiousness of parents, and the unwillingness of schools to stand their ground.
1. A coworker of mine (let's call him Dave) was on lunch duty in a middle school. The other teacher who was supposed to be on duty that day did not show up, so he was alone. A student started a food fight, and Dave responded immediately. He stopped the food fight and escorted the instigator out of the lunch room to the office, holding him by the arm.
Just before they get to the office, the student goes "dead weight" on him, and collapses to the ground, with Dave still holding onto his arm. There only being two more steps to the office, Dave grabbed the student with both arms, lifted him up, and sat him in a chair in the office while he spoke with the Vice Principal.
The student claimed assault, the parent sued, and the teacher was fired. TWO YEARS later, when the case finally made it through court, he was found not to be guilty of any wrongdoing and the charges were dismissed. The school had to reinstate him, but he was definitely a changed man because of it.
2. A friend of mine working in Atlanta (lets name him Bill), was teaching his second grade class. One of his students got out of his chair and laid in the aisle between desks, and wouldn't move. Bill told the student he would have detention if he didn't get up, but the student refused to move and laid prone on the floor.
Bill walked over, lifted the student up by his arms, and put him back in his chair. The student struggled, but sat in his chair once placed there. During his struggle, he managed to tear a seam in his shirt, however, and he told his mother that his teacher attacked him.
The mother threatened a lawsuit for assault, and the school district suspended Bill. Bill had never had any blemish on his record at all, and had won awards for teaching, but the school wouldn't back him up and asked him to resign after several months of suspension. They didn't want to go through a trial, and told him that they wouldn't support him if he did take it to court.
He now works in a charter school with a lot more administrative support, and is a lot happier.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I honestly don't know how to reply to this. I'm so glad there were monkey bars where I came from because I would seriously DIE if I had not had my dear dear monkey bars to play with when I was a child. Heck, I was the QUEEN of them monkey bars. Hurray for the 90's.
They are stealing their childhood.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I don't have much of a problem with lawyers - I mostly blame their clients. I want to emphasize that even an unsuccessful lawsuit costs school districts money. In addition to the lawyer fees and court costs, there's the investigation, lost work hours, hiring of substitute/replacement faculty. The worst is the rise in insurance premiums.
Frivilous lawsuits have had a terrible effect on education. They've created an atmosphere of wariness and distrust among teachers, students, and parents. I've been in trainings where we were instructed never to hug a child, even if they were crying. They also make it so much harder for students with legitimate complaints to get justice. The selfishness of these overly-litigious people is just beyond the pale.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:I've been in trainings where we were instructed never to hug a child, even if they were crying.
I was told the same. Also, you can't give students one-on-one help after school unless there is a group of students there or another teacher, and even then you have to make sure your door is open and you're in plain sight of the hall.
It's just crazy.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I was told the same. Also, you can't give students one-on-one help after school unless there is a group of students there or another teacher, and even then you have to make sure your door is open and you're in plain sight of the hall.
*nods* It's not just limited to education though - all business faces things like this. In my mother's work as an investigator for sexual harassment claims, she always advises the company to immediately enact policies prohibiting managers from talking to employees one-on-one behind closed doors. They must always have another supervisor present as a witness, or have a door that is not only open, but where one of them is always in plain sight of other employees. It's not enough if the door is open but the only desk in front of the door is your secretary's - and she's gone to lunch. She says it's just basic policy to never be alone with a subordinate employee. Ever.
But Mrs. M is right, even if the company and/or manager is in the right, it costs them a lot of money. My mother does not work cheap. She gets hired to work, paid by the hour, and she interviews both sides of what is usually a he said/she said incident, then interviews other employees, does investigations into written company records, reviews their policy and procedure statements, and then makes a written report to both the accuser and the accused. It can take her weeks. In most of her cases, the company does turn out to be in the right and the claim of the accuser is dismissed, but the company still pays through the nose for her time and expertise (and she works cheaper than the employment law attorney that brings her in.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: *tackles Rivka*
*Does triumphant 'in your face' dance*
*sues for sexual harassment*
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
quote:I've been in trainings where we were instructed never to hug a child, even if they were crying.
I was told the same. Also, you can't give students one-on-one help after school unless there is a group of students there or another teacher, and even then you have to make sure your door is open and you're in plain sight of the hall.
It's just crazy.
When I was in middle school, we'd tutor kids in the Headstart program. They were very careful to tell us that we could never, ever touch the kids, even if they ran up and hugged us, we weren't allowed to hug them back.
-pH
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
The no-hug thing is going to be tough for me. I'm a pretty tactile person. But, I understand the necessity of teaching in today's environment, and that I'll just have to not do it.
I hug my kids that I teach choir to at church, usually they run up to me and put their arms around me, it would seem very foreign to me not to hug them back.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Lots of teachers disregard rules like that--at their own risk, of course. When I was a summer camp counselor for very young boys, I disregarded our no physical affection rule.
As a teacher, I am much more careful, because, believe it or not, plenty of people do perceive teachers as being wealthy. I'd never heard of an innocent summer camp counselor being sued by a malicious child's family, but it happens to teachers all the time. I never hug anybody, I discourage kids from hugging me. I never pat a kid on the back or arm. I display zero physical affection. This is tough on me, because I really do love kids, but that's just the way it is.
I actually believe that in the years I have been teaching, I have lost some of the "touch" I once had, because I slow down to overthink about whether everything is okay.
That being said, I do offer extra help in my classroom, to however many kids feel like showing up. The door is open. That'll have to be good enough.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
The door is open, Icarus, but the ride, it ain;t free.
Edit: you have TWO SECONDS to name that tune...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
OK, here is a different take on this issue. People are assuming that schools are depriving students of free play, that kids these days have no fun.
Well, I say that kids are so overstructured these days that they have no clue how to act when they have free time, or even free thinking space.
This is part of my developing "Gameboy Theory," that we are raising(as a society) canned children who get everything in small, difgestible doses and are rarely asked to think for themselves.
Add to this the concept of "Time on Learning." This is an offshoot of the ever-popular No Child Left Behind Act, which decrees that children must not have a single moment of their school time that is not focused on a curriculum framework.
Study halls? Oh, no!!! Enrichment blocks. Extra classes for teachers to prepare for, when they used to be able to meet with kids who needed extra help, when motivated kids could get their homework done, and when procrastinating kids could just, heaven forbid, relax for half an hour.
So, what I see is a group of children who cannot play tag anymore because they cannot play anymore, period.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
"Thunder Road"
Not it!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
It took you way too long. I call that you are it.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Pfft. I answered as soon as I saw it.
*Pushes Elizabeth*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Fine. For Belle:
"I think I'll take a moment to celebrate my age, the ending of an era, and the turning of a page."
You're it!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
:tattles on Icarus:
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
:wedgies Scott:
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Ow, ow, oww!
Mrs. Caaaaaaaaaaard!
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Has anyone else noticed that Massachusetts is spelled wrong in the topic line?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
LOL. So it is. Too many letters in that state, anyway.
Duly edited.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I totally didn't notice until this morning either.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
Just as an update, I heard on the radio (one of those quick news blerbs in between music sets) this morning that it isn't just tag that has been banned but any student touching another student during the recess time.
I agree with whomever voiced that it isn't the school/faculty's fault and I also agree that many students don't know how to enjoy free time. I think instead of removing the free time, that games should be taught either during recess and/or during P.E. time until spontaneous (and appropriate) games are happening on the playground.
(We had to do this at the school that I taught in and it took some time but it was effective and we had 3 recesses a day...we taught the rules to hop scotch, four square, kick ball, buddy tag *gasp*, and we explained what appropriate/inappropriate touch included).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by kojabu: Has anyone else noticed that Massachusetts is spelled wrong in the topic line?
Yes. But I decided a while ago to try to let the typos that didn't interfere with comprehension go.
[OTOH, now I don't flinch every time I see the title. So it's all good. ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Um, hello? That is the French spelling of our state. I was impressed that Flying Cow gave us the respect to assume we would know that. Apparently, that respect went unappreciated. Sad, that.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
More like Taxachussetts am I right?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Elizabeth: Too many letters are pronounced in Massachusettes, it can't be French.
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