I know that some members here have expressed interest in joining the Canadian Military but were discouraged by fitness requirements. I thought this may be of interest.
(I'm bored in class. sigh.)
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote: Aspiring soldiers no longer need to be in tip-top physical shape if they want to join the ranks of the Canadian Forces.
quote: In the past, the fitness test for men under 35 consisted of 19 pushups, 19 situps, squeezing 75 kilograms in a hand grip, and running 2.4 kilometres in an acceptable period of time.
Since when is doing the above considered 'tip-top' physical shape?
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
seriously. if you can't get those basic things accomplished, the military might not be the best place for you.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
The military can train and condition folks. With proper motivation, people can overcome shortcomings. That's what they will use training for. To coach people and whip them into shape.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
so that fitness test was something that people had to do before they were allowed to go to basic training?
i agree with the idea of dropping it. like you say, they're going to get whiped up into shape anyway. if they really can't handle it then, they'll realize it really isn't for them. Other people who maybe wouldn't have been able to accomplish it before, will now hopefully be able to. But to be perfectly honest, someone who can't accomplish those things is going to be a significant danger to themselves and others.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, for instance, dropping the running could allow asthmatics in, and as long as they're not on the front lines but in an at-home support position, with the proper medication asthmatics might be okay.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Does Canada need a military?
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
Well, they're in charge of the NATO forces in Afghanistan so . . . yes.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Oh.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Modern militaries do actually have a lot of utility for folks who can't past tests like those.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
In a longer-term sense, we also need a military to guard against the possibility that America might feel the need to semi-permanently deploy troops to Canada to protect us from outside forces. We don't need to be a military powerhouse, but a certain level of robustness should be maintained.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
So THAT'S what those helicopters that just flew overhead were for! (I can just about see Canada from my window)
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Well, they're in charge of the NATO forces in Afghanistan so . . . yes.
That, and to prevent us from executing War Plan RED.
(edit: in other words, what twinky said. Why can't I read?)
--j_k
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Well, for instance, dropping the running could allow asthmatics in, and as long as they're not on the front lines but in an at-home support position, with the proper medication asthmatics might be okay.
I was always under the impression that anyone joining the military could potentially be put in or assigned to a combat situation. Am I mistaken? Honest question, I really don't know. If there are purely administrative roles, with no possibility of combat, then it makes absolute sense to drop physical requirements for those (people in wheelchairs could take part, etc).
Are they taking physical requirements out of completing boot camp though? If they're not, then it doesn't make sense to drop admission requirements. With boot camp it makes sense to me that the trainees will need some sort of common base for them to work with. Kind of like college. They will churn out people with a higher level of education than they had when they went in. However, they don't allow 6th graders to take college course. They have admission requirements so that there's a bare minimum expectation. I just kind of view this the same way. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't know, it was a hypothetical. I'm not sure exactly how the Canadian military is structured.
That would be one way to free up more people already in for front-line duty if they're having trouble recruiting and such.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian:
quote: Aspiring soldiers no longer need to be in tip-top physical shape if they want to join the ranks of the Canadian Forces.
quote: In the past, the fitness test for men under 35 consisted of 19 pushups, 19 situps, squeezing 75 kilograms in a hand grip, and running 2.4 kilometres in an acceptable period of time.
Since when is doing the above considered 'tip-top' physical shape?
Oh, man. Since when is the above considered even "vegetative" physical shape? Canada must be pretty confident that they have no enemies...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Since when is the above considered even "vegetative" physical shape?
Come on, now. I'm sure there's some kind of time limit. I probably couldn't make it through their test, but I can carry 1/3 my weight on my back five miles and live off it for four days and hike back out with it.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
If the most they require is nineteen situps, the time limit for the run is probably, like, half an hour or something. My guess is you're way more qualified than the average Canadian serviceman.
My high school football team did over 150 situps in our warmups, before lifting (some of the linemen benching over 400 pounds) and doing several miles worth of sprints. I mean, we were way better than I'd expect any non-elite military training to live up to, but good lord.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Canada has a military?!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I can't do ONE push-up, unless we're talking modified ("girl") push-ups.
-pH
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Erm, why? I don't think that's normal for your age.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Yeah Storm, it pretty much is. Unless we specifically work on upper body strength, most girls can't do push-ups from puberty onwards. It's not just arm strength, althoght that's a lot of it, having a lower center of gravity also makes it harder to hold your body straight in order to do "real" push-ups.
I could do them when I was taking karate, and did them every week, although it was never easy and I could never do "enough," and then a couple years ago when I was lifting seriously I could do a few. But I'd be very surprised if I could now.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I roll to disbelieve.
Seriously, I don't believe that the average girl can't do one pushup.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
What's even more interesting is how few "girl" pushups a well-conditioned man can do in a row.
(Try it.)
Physics is an amazing thing. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I just asked the woman next to me, your average cubicle rat, and she said she could do one pushup.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
What, like on your knees?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
*grin
Ask her to do it in front of you, and watch her form.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*shifty eyes* *whispers*
I wish. She's hot.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: What, like on your knees?
Yup. Feet held up in the air off the floor, with the only floor contact being palms and knees. It's an interesting experiment for men -- different in unexpected ways from the traditional pushup, which makes use of the male center of gravity.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: *shifty eyes* *whispers*
I wish. She's hot.
All the more reason.
Play the "I'm interested in science" card. Nerds are hot right now. And offer to do the other pushups for her. She can count and watch your form carefully.
*Grin
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, if you're saying they're harder for men, they're not. Really. I speak as someone who has done lots of pushups and seen other people do lots of pushups, not just me being argumentative. I can probably do twice as many knee pushups as regular pushups.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Play the "I'm interested in science" card. Nerds are hot right now. And offer to do the other pushups for her. She can count and watch your form carefully.
Wicked girl. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I said "most." Do a survey of the rest of the females you know and see how many laugh at you. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Harrumph.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Well, if you're saying they're harder for men, they're not. Really. I speak as someone who has done lots of pushups and seen other people do lots of pushups, not just me being argumentative. I can probably do twice as many knee pushups as regular pushups.
How many can you do right now? (Just curious.) "Girl" pushups, that is.
---
Edited to add: Drop and give it to me, Stormie.
Wicked? Yes. For breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and thank you kindly.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
And you have to keep your torso in line with your thighs -- i.e., body in straight line from head to knees, feet off floor, good form throughout.
I'm willing to stand corrected, by the way. I am not impossible to please, just a woman who requires diligent effort. As it were.
Carry on.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I don't want to say how many 'girl' or 'regular' pushups I can do right now because it might hurt my manly image, but trust me that I know for a fact that I can do twice as many girly ones as regular ones.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I shall firmly endeavor to maintain your manly image in my mind's eye, so long as you agree to always think of me as a sprightly nymphlicke faerie. Deal?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I roll to disbelieve.
Seriously, I don't believe that the average girl can't do one pushup.
I'd guess that most of my female friends could do between one and five. But I'm sure that several of them couldn't get the one.
I can definitely do more 'girl' pushups than regular.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: so long as you agree to always think of me as a sprightly nymphlicke faerie
Well, who doesn't?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
You charmer!
*laughing
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I don't want to say how many 'girl' or 'regular' pushups I can do right now because it might hurt my manly image, but trust me that I know for a fact that I can do twice as many girly ones as regular ones.
I just did pushups to exhaustion - that is, until I couldn't do any more in correct form - then immediately did twice as many "girl" pushups. So I think it's easier, at least for someone who's out of shape.
It's possible that improvements would not be even between the two and the numbers would move closer were I not in horrible shape right now.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(I had noted "well-conditioned man" initially for a reason. This is all secondary to a prior discussion with a physical therapist, by the way, so my interest is professional as well as personal.)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
And hey, thanks, Dagonee! Very cool of you to "experiment" for me.
I really do appreciate it.
---
Edited to add:
And I haven't forgotten our abortion discussion. All buildup, no denouement. *rueful look
I've just been psychologically stretched past my reserves, but I won't forget.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: I just did pushups to exhaustion - that is, until I couldn't do any more in correct form - then immediately did twice as many "girl" pushups. So I think it's easier, at least for someone who's out of shape.
*nod*
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
BTW, my center of gravity is still pretty high (bigger chest than stomach and hips still, thankfully) even though I'm out of shape. But the fact that it's my muscles giving out rather than aerobic exhaustion would definitely change the results if I could do more of each.
quote:I've just been psychologically stretched past my reserves, but I won't forget.
I understand. Completely. It's a discussion best left for times when the inner reserve tank is full and at rest. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I understand. Completely. It's a discussion best left for times when the inner reserve tank is full and at rest.
We will do it justice. Good stuff. (and good man)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Wait, so your argument is that knee pushups are harder for well-conditioned men?
I'm confused now.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I'm in fair shape and I really want to test this, but I don't think the janitorial staff in my office has been doing such a great job of cleaning the floors lately.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
And I am spiking a fever, unable to breathe through my nose, and caffeine-deprived due to an apartment-wide milk shortage. Give little credence to my utterances this morning.
But seriously, I was told (by someone trained in physical therapy) that men in good condition are often surprised that they cannot do more "girl" pushups [than they can] and [still] maintain good form; i.e., that physical training which improves one's ability to do traditional pushups does not correlate quite as expected when one then does the modified pushups. In part (I think) this is because a well-conditioned man tends to have a higher center of gravity, but also in part (I think) because pushup ability is about more than just upper-body strength (so, when one improved upper body strength, one may not improve as much as one would expect one's ability to do all versions of pushups).
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by zgator: I'm in fair shape and I really want to test this, but I don't think the janitorial staff in my office has been doing such a great job of cleaning the floors lately.
If I recall correctly, you also test-drove my fingertip/visual illusion experiment.
Fabulous. Gold star for you! *grin
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
With all due respect to your PT person, I still attempt to disbelieve.
But I'm certainly open to being proven wrong.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
We maintain a policy of openness to new evidence. *nods
Maintiens le droit. Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Let's make some assumptions. A man who is 6-ft tall will likely have his center of gravity (COG) at about 3 feet. If he weighs 170 lbs, the moment from his toes would be 510 ft-lbs. If his arms are at about 5 feet, he would need to push with a force of 102 lbs.
On his knees, the COG would be about 2 feet from the point and the arms would be about 4 feet. Assuming the legs below the knees weigh about 10 lbs each, that give a weight of 150 lbs, which in turn give a moment of 300 ft-lbs. He would need to push with a force of only 75 lbs now.
Now he's well-built with a large upper body so he weighs 200 lbs and the COG is now at 3.5 ft for regular pushups and 2.5 ft for knee pushups. That gives a necessary force of 140 lbs and 112.5 lbs for regular and knee pushups, respectively.
The percentage difference between the two is smaller for the well-built man. Which means the regular guy would see a bigger difference between knee pushups and regular pushups.
Disclaimer: I have no idea how close those COG's are to reality.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
You need to figure in tendon attachment points and angles of joint motion, etc., to create a feasible model, in my opinion.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
The main problem that I can see is that a regular pushup is more of a benchpress motion (arms perpendicular to the torso), and the girl pushups are more of a decline motion (maybe 15 degrees down from perpendicular). Therefore, it does take more force to create the same motion, but the moment arm is shorter. I'd call it a wash, but in practice I think girl pushups are simpler.
I actually can't wait until I get home from work to try this. I'm in better than average shape (though I hesitate to apply the 'well conditioned' tag), so it might be a better measure.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
zgator, I don't think you can make the assumption that a "normal" 6' tall man's COG is at 3', either. The whole point of COG is that it is not "right in the middle" like you would expect it to be. For most 6' guys, 3' is going to be somewhere in their upper legs. The amount of mass above that point is going to be significantly more than the amount below.
In other words, I think your numbers are pretty much useless. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
woot, now I can join the reserves quicker.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: You need to figure in tendon attachment points and angles of joint motion, etc., to create a feasible model, in my opinion.
Hey, I did this in 5 minutes. Cut me some slack.
quote: In other words, I think your numbers are pretty much useless.
Actually, they're not useless. The better built a man is, the higher the COG will likely be. Let's face it - most men who work out do not spend anywhere near as much time on their lower body as their upper body. If you change what I assumed to 3.5 and 4 feet, the concept still applies in that the higher the COG, the less difference there will be between the required forces.
Of course, JT's point about the angle is a good too.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
For the average adult human, CG is somewhere in the vicinity of an inch or two above their belly button.
On average, men have higher CGs than women. Many women have CGs that are actually at or below their belly button.
Can someone explain again the difference between the two types of pushups? I have no idea which kind I do.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
The results are in:
Pushups on knees: 55 (I probably could have done a couple more but I got bored)
"Regular" pushups: Usually around 70.
Those girl pushups are hard (Yup, decline all the way). If that's what girls are fighting against when doing "regular" pushups, I'm impressed. My shoulders REALLY wanted to kiss the floor.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Strider: so that fitness test was something that people had to do before they were allowed to go to basic training?
They still have to do it before thay begin basic training. Potential recruits who fail the test will be admitted but have to undergo special physical training before being allowed to begin basic.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
The key with the modified push-up is keeping everything STRAIGHT. I've seen a lot of people do these push-ups, who say they can to a bajillion of them, but they do it bending at the waist. A lot of times, you don't realize that you're not keeping everything aligned unless someone is there to tell you.
The difference between the push-ups is that the modified push-up...let me find a picture.
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Well, for instance, dropping the running could allow asthmatics in, and as long as they're not on the front lines but in an at-home support position, with the proper medication asthmatics might be okay.
If they have issues with asthma then they probably won't be let in. However, if they are like me, and have had no issues with their asthma for quite a while, then who cares? Put them on the front line. I'm in on a waiver for having had asthma. I have had one issue with it my entire time in. Other than that, I don't let it get in the way.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)