The Senate race in Virginia got a lot more exciting when incumbent Allen started insulting student reporters. Almost overnight, after calling a reporter a macac, his standings in the polls plummeted, and Democratic underdog Jim Webb's polls shot up.
Both men have been accused of racism in their early lives; Webb has been accused of misogyny for writing a paper entitled 'Women Can't Fight.' (Webb reorganized the USMC)
Both men's stance on immigration bothers me. I agree more with Webb on the Iraq war, and I think he knows more about military operations than Allen (not sure how much that will really help him make good decisions in the Senate, though).
It's an interesting race, watching Allen scramble for votes so late in the game. The race was practically his; now the liberal voters in Northern VA are motivated, and the rural voters are disenchanted with the GOP.
The thing is, Webb's not really your classic Democrat, as far I can see. He critisized John Kerry pretty savagely back in 2004, and all the books he's written have been military.
Wonder how this is going to shake down.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
This is the race I registered to vote for. This is the race that I'm excited to vote for.
I don't know who I'm going to vote for.
This is because I'm currently lazy. I intend to do some research on voting records and policy issues later. I wonder if I'm failing on my part to vote in good people because I care more about how they do their job than their personalities. I'm basing this on the assumption that I wouldn't really want to be friends with either.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
(My wife's family detests George Allen. A large part of my animosity towards him comes from their experiences)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Webb has been accused of misogyny for writing a paper entitled 'Women Can't Fight.' (Webb reorganized the USMC)
...
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I can't believe that George Allen would have called that Indian guy that name if he knew it was a racist term. He must have known that everyone would find out anything he said in a public speech.
You can find George Allen's making his gaffe on YouTube pretty easily. It's so funny to watch someone destroy themselves like that.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
This question just became academic for me, because I last night found on my desk the voter registration form I filled out and forgot to mail in June. So I can either drive down to Charlottesville (not going to happen) or not vote.
Bad, irresponsible Dagonee!
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
There's some fudging on both sides here. Allen's "macaca" comment, it can be argued, wasn't racist because before the whole controversy started, nobody even considered "macaca" a real word, much less a pejorative. The later revelations of a lifetime of racist attitudes are more damning, I think.
Meanwhile, Webb explicitly stated that he didn't think women should be in the military. On the other hand, this was something like 30 years ago, when such beliefs were hardly uncommon, and he later went on to open up a great deal of new opportunities for women as secretary of the Navy.
Unfortunately, I think Webb is pretty much doomed, for one simple reason: in many districts, including those most likely to vote Democratic, they changed the font size on the ballots so that his name no longer fits. Instead, it reads "JAMES H. 'JIM'."
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Um. I knew the word as a type of monkey before the whole controversy, and would have assumed if someone used it to refer to a human that they were trying to be offensive. So I don't think it can be argued very well that the comment wasn't racist.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: This question just became academic for me, because I last night found on my desk the voter registration form I filled out and forgot to mail in June. So I can either drive down to Charlottesville (not going to happen) or not vote.
Bad, irresponsible Dagonee!
Apparently your state does not allow absentee voting just for the heck of it, as mine does?
(Yes, I moved over a year ago. And I was SURE I had re-registered. But apparently not.)
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Unfortunately, I think Webb is pretty much doomed, for one simple reason: in many districts, including those most likely to vote Democratic, they changed the font size on the ballots so that his name no longer fits. Instead, it reads "JAMES H. 'JIM'."
Hmm. I'd heard that that mistake was only on the summary portion of the ballot. The actual ballot part reads fine.
Do you have a link to your information?
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Um. I knew the word as a type of monkey before the whole controversy, and would have assumed if someone used it to refer to a human that they were trying to be offensive. So I don't think it can be argued very well that the comment wasn't racist.
Really? My bad... I'd never heard it before, and didn't know anyone else who had. I have to admit that I haven't been following Allen too closely, since I'm neither Virginian nor Republican. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Unfortunately, I think Webb is pretty much doomed, for one simple reason: in many districts, including those most likely to vote Democratic, they changed the font size on the ballots so that his name no longer fits. Instead, it reads "JAMES H. 'JIM'."
Hmm. I'd heard that that mistake was only on the summary portion of the ballot. The actual ballot part reads fine.
Sorry about that. That's what I get for not double-checking my facts.
Edit: Hey hey, simulpost.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
I didn't know you were a Virginian, Scott.
--j_k, who learns something new everyday Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Dagonee -- same thing happened with me, I forgot to change my registration when I moved from Charlottesville to nearby... anyway, I was in the city Wednesday and so I stopped by the City Hall Annex and voted absentee. I think I remember seeing a sign saying that Nov. 4 was the cutoff date for absentee voting.
*Caresses his "I made democracy count!" voting sticker*
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk: I have to admit that I haven't been following Allen too closely, since I'm neither Virginian nor Republican.
Me either, for the same reasons. But I do go to the zoo. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I didn't know you were a Virginian, Scott.
Since 1990.
Wow. I've been here a LONG time.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by plaid: I think I remember seeing a sign saying that Nov. 4 was the cutoff date for absentee voting.
Huh? I know not every state has does absentee ballots the way California does, but that's weird.
Here, you request yours by mail (or now online), and they mail it to the address on file. (Which I guess wouldn't work for Dags regardless. But since my old address is my parents' current address, it works for me.) You complete it and mail it back (postmarked no later than voting day) OR drop it off at any polling place (or have someone else do so) on voting day.
We also have touchscreen voting in certain locations starting this week and running through a few days before voting day.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
The monkey word is "macaque", and the slur word is "macaca".
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I think the Nov. 4 deadline sign was for stopping-by-to-vote absentee.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Omega M.:
quote:The macaque's genus name, Macaca, is a latinization of the Bantu (Kongo) ma-kako[3], meaning "monkey".
From wikipedia. I can't link, because there are parenthesis in the url and ubb code won't accept it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by plaid: I think the Nov. 4 deadline sign was for stopping-by-to-vote absentee.
Yes, got that. Stopping by WHERE? Here, except for the (quite recent) addition of touchscreen voting, there is nowhere to vote except on voting day itself.
Posted by Dasa (Member # 8968) on :
Omega M. -- DailyKos says (in its usual overblown way) that macaca is a French slur and Allen does know French through his mother.
My point, however, is that it is also the genus name for a type of monkey, so for me to say I knew the word as a type of monkey and then Omega M to "correct" me without the even the most basic web search to find out if it might in fact actually BE a type of monkey, as well as a slur, is basically saying I don't know what I'm talking about. Which is sometimes the case. But not, as it happens, this time.
Added: Here are the particular Macaca fuscatas I'm familiar with. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Mr. Allen has a schtick he does about "real Virginia," basically everything except Northern Virginia. He often extends that to "real America." It's an anti-Beltway kind of appeal, associating the northern part of the state with DC. It's been very successful and plays extremely well in the crowd he was speaking to. I've seen him do it, in person, since he ran for governor over a decade ago. It's common amongst other politicians from both parties when facing opponents with northern Virginia bases. (There's a famous flubb made by Bush I trying to do the same thing by saying his opponent didn't get farther south than South Boston. Bush was about 15 miles from a Virginia town called South Boston.)
I am absolutely convinced that he would have said the exact same thing, minus Macaca, if the video operator were white - I've heard him use the other party's monitor in that way before.
Adding "Macaca" was stupid, no other word for it. I suspect it was a feeble attempt to conjure up a foreign sounding name. But he wasn't playing up to racism or xenophobia (at least international xenophobia) so much as playing a time-honored regionalist game in Virginia politics.
Now, I have huge problems with this little schtick and the state regionalism (as well as the reverse regionalism that emanates from No.Va.), but it's necessary to understand this context to fully judge what he was saying.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Err...now I'm not a Virginian, but my understanding was that George Allen was known to have had a very racist past - he had a noose in his office as a D.A., draped the Confederate Flag over thigns, had close associations with an offshoot of the K.K.K., etc. The Macaca thing was initially weird, and then it turned out to be a French/Algerian racist comment. Since his mother lived for some time in Alegria (I think this is right, but I just got a version of this one night, didn't pay that much attention to it), it seems very likely he got it from her.
But, as far as I know, this didn't hurt him that greatly in the polls. His lead dropped, but he was still strongly favored to win. The thing that really hurt his campaign was that people found out that his mother was Jewish and he had been telling people she wasn't. It was after that that his numbers started really slipping.
Posted by Dasa (Member # 8968) on :
Dagonee -- Thanks for clearing that up. It does make a lot of sense.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
(Some NC-17 rated text, written by Webb, quoted by Allen. Edited to add this warning.)
[ October 27, 2006, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Will B ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
George Allen was accused of having a racist past, accusations that dated back to his run for governor. There is a member of his college football team who has publicly made accusations (the Post printed anonymous accusations as well, which I thought pretty cheesy), but many other members of that team - including black members - have directly contradicted claims that they would have been witnesses to.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:the thing that really hurt his campaign was that people found out that his mother was Jewish and he had been telling people she wasn't. It was after that that his numbers started really slipping.
The Jewish thing isn't on the news or on people's minds nearly as much as the macaca thing.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
My take is that Allen is incredibly insensitive to the potential racist import of his acts, inexcusably so for a politician, but not racist.
The noose in the D.A.'s office was quite possibly related to a "hard on crime" kind of image:
quote:Grandpappy told my pappy Back in my day, son A man had to answer For the wicked thing he done Take all the rope in Texas Find a tall oak tree Round up all of them bad boys And hang 'em high in the street For all the people to see
I've seen pictures of electric chairs in prosecutors' offices as well as a picture of an old-west gallows. Never a noose, though.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
WillB, you need to put a warning on your post about the depictions in the link, please.
As far as the passages referred to being damaging... well, they're all obviously taken out of context. In order to claim that these scraps of narrative show that Webb is categorically misogynistic, we'd need more than scraps.
We need the full context of the book.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I'm surprised no one is commenting on the flap Will B linked to.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Probably most of us saw it was at the drudge report and decided to skip the link altogether.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
Really? I kinda like the Drudge Report. It's kind of like reading the tabloids while waiting in line at the grocery store.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Ignorance, in this case, may really *be* bliss.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
I guess I'm kind of torn on the issue. Should the man be held accountable for the fiction that he writes? Does the views of characters in a book reflect on the views of the author?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:does the views of characters in a book reflect on the views of the author?
:flatly:
No, they don't. We can't tell from the passages quoted if the characters are portrayed are supposed to be heroes/villains/protagonists/antagonists.
We can't see anything but the depiction.
I'd hate for someone to accuse me of having the same morality as Nina Borriegos or Quincy Umble.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Rivka--
I'll change my wording, if that's what's saddening you. I didn't mean to offend.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think you may be jumping the gun just a little bit there smitty. It's a Druge Report release from a Republican campaign. To put it another way, we have no reason to believe that it is even actually true, let alone a fair representation of what was written.
I looked up Senator Allen on wikipedia to see what allegations there were.
Scott, I don't see anywhere on your link that it was the macaca thing that hurt him and that people don't care about the denying his mother was Jewish thing. As I said, as far as I know, his polls took a bigger hit after the Jewish thing than the macaca incident. He still had a lead until the Jewish thing came out. It is possible that it was just a delayed reaction that happened to coincide with the Jewish revelation though.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It would be fascinating to get OSC's opinion on it.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:does the views of characters in a book reflect on the views of the author?
:flatly:
No, they don't.
Disagree. I think the answer would be flatly "Maybe" or "I don't know". You can't say that an author's personality doesn't come through his characters or his plot lines.
That being said, you can't say that they do. And this form of attack is certainly low and/or desperate.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Squicky:
There's not a refutation about the poll numbers in the article I linked. I linked the article to show that Allen only found out recently that he was Jewish, and that he had promised his mother he wouldn't say anything.
Your post may be construed by some people to indicate that he had known for a long time, and was hiding it for political reasons.
Allen STILL has a lead in the polls. Not by much; with the statistical margin of error, he and Webb are in a dead heat.
Like I said-- the macaca thing has been on the news much more frequently than the Jewish thing. Allen was on the news yesterday afternoon in an interview where they questioned him about racism, his stance on immigration-- never mentioned a word about his Jewishness. (This was on 94.3, the new ESPN station here in NoVA. Yeah, politics on ESPN. I thought it was a Christian station until they started asking Allen for his picks)
I'm telling you, it's just not on people's minds.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The disclosure about his mother preceded the Washington Post article on with very specific allegations - including one about a deer's head in a mailbox - by only 6 days.
There's one tie in a poll taken over a 5 day period, 4 days of which were after the Post's article.
The racist article was a MUCH bigger deal than both macaca and the disclosure about his mother, at least in No. Va.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I think every thought that a writer puts into words reflect their innermost personal goals and needs.
That's why OSC is secretly trying to be the Hegemon, if he doesn't destroy the Earth first as an agent of a bug-like collective minded alien race.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Rivka--
I'll change my wording, if that's what's saddening you. I didn't mean to offend.
Not at all! It's his mother's attitude and action that sadden me. I thought your title was cute.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
smitty:
You're probably right; it's a subject that's been on my mind lately. (Along the lines of, "Am I a bad person if I have my characters do bad things?")
I don't think characters necessarily reflect an author's viewpoints; OSC'd have to be athiest (as was Bean) if that were true.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm getting my info from a friend of mine who lives in Richmond, Va. He's not terribly political and we were talking about the weird things about this year's races (The GOP is running some guy for Congress in my district whose only qualifications appear to be he was on The Apprentice, but considering that their candidate for governor's strongest point is that he used to be really good at football, maybe that's their new strategy.) and we got to talking about this. I haven't been following it so much, so there you go.
---
edit: One thing though Scott. Your link only showed that he and his mother claimed that he didn't know. I didn't see any independent confirmation of this, just their say so.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Squick, there's potentially a huge difference in how each issue is treated in different regions, so it's very possible everyone is right about which issue is dominating a long as the locale is taken into account. Scott and I are in an area wit a population that has a high-percentage of people from outside the state originally. We have mostly Washington-centric media.
Richmond has southern and southwestern Virginia media, with a very different mix of personal histories than Northern Virginia.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: smitty:
I don't think characters necessarily reflect an author's viewpoints;
Agree 100%. Notice I didn't call Webb some sort of deviant? Let's keep the OSC example going. From his books, it's not a surpise that he's 1) Religious, 2) Mormon, and 3) fairly conservative.
I'm not drawing comparisons to a particular book or character, but rather his entire body of work. Is this unfair? I think it's entirely possible that an author could explore a world and mindset completely unlike his own, and could continue to do so over his entire works. And some authors pour some of themselves into their work.
It's a discussion point, not an argument.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I didn't see any independent confirmation of this, just their say so.
:blink:
I'm having a hard time understanding your tenacity in hanging on to the belief that Allen is being duplicitous about when he knew.
Can you prove your implication?
EDIT: Are you implying that Allen and his mother ARE lying?
quote:it's not a surpise that he's 1) Religious, 2) Mormon, and 3) fairly conservative.
Mmm... this doesn't have anything to do with this discussion, but lots of people assume that he's a lapsed Mormon.
I don't feel like we're arguing, smitty. No worries.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Errr...I'm not hanging on to anything. I'm just accurately characterizing your link. All it had was George Allen and his mother saying that he didn't know she was Jewish, which doesn't exactly constitute hard proof that this is so. Do you disagree with any of this?
I'm not saying whether they are lying or not. I'm basically neutral on the question.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote:Mr. Allen has a schtick he does about "real Virginia," basically everything except Northern Virginia.
Dags, I'm glad you mentioned this, because it's one of my main issues with Allen. There are many reasons that NoVa feels separated from the rest of the Commonwealth, and rather than trying to unify the varying regions he continues to be devisive.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Actually, Scott, reading the article again, I can say pretty confidently that George Allen lied about this at least once.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:All it had was George Allen and his mother saying that he didn't know she was Jewish, which doesn't exactly constitute hard proof that this is so. Do you disagree with any of this?
Saying, 'Well, there's no hard proof that they're telling the truth,' implies that one thinks that they're telling a lie.
Do you agree?
EDIT:
quote:I can say pretty confidently that George Allen lied about this at least once.
Yep. Because his mother asked him to, and he said yes. My question, though, is about WHEN he knew-- not that he knew when he lied to the reporter.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
No, it implies that they may or may not be telling the truth and that there really isn't any way to tell. Plus, your article clearly demonstrates that he did lie about his mother's heritage.
quote:Allen's heritage became an issue in the Virginia Senate campaign Monday, when television reporter Peggy Fox raised it at a televised debate in front of 600 business executives in Fairfax County. Allen repeated what he has said in the past: "My mother's French-Italian with a little Spanish blood in her. And I was raised as she was, as far as I know, raised as a Christian."
In fact, Allen had just recently learned about their Jewish roots when he made those comments. Allen declined to comment, but his mother said she had sworn him to secrecy.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Yep. Because his mother asked him to, and he said yes.
Again, we have nothing beside his mother's say so that this is true.
Is it really so hard for you to concede that a politician and people associated with them aren't necessarily telling the truth about things, especially ones that would seriously hurt them?
Your statements, not mine, are making clear implications. You are not even admitting that they may not be telling the truth. I'm saying they may or may not be and we really have no way of telling. This is not saying he and his mother are lying, but it admits that possibility the this is so.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What do you think that means, Squicky, for George Allen? What should it mean? Should he continue to campaign as a Christian (as he was doing on ESPN yesterday afternoon)?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm inclined to believe him and his mother until someone comes up with proof otherwise.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
What the heck do I care? I just don't think that your representation of "We know from that article that he didn't know about it." was accurate.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I'm inclined to believe him and his mother until someone comes up with proof otherwise.
Apparently not just inclined, but so attached to the idea that you'll attack people for even suggesting that it might not be true.
edit: And, that aside, your personal belief as to whether or not he was telling the truth doesn't change the fact that your representation of what was established in your link was inaccurate.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I'm having a hard time understanding your tenacity in hanging on to the belief that Allen is being duplicitous about when he knew.
Can you prove your implication?
EDIT: Are you implying that Allen and his mother ARE lying?
Is this what you're calling an attack?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Can I attack?
Geroge Allen is a liar and a smarmy, racist liar, at that. His hair looks fake, which suits him, as his smile and demeanor also look fake.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Yeah, I realized I should have changed that, but you caught it before my edit. What I meant was you'll attack people's suggesting that it might not be true. I was trying to say that you were attacking my saying "We don't know if what they were saying is true or not." and I realize that how I phrased it didn't really convey that.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Squicky:
quote:your personal belief as to whether or not he was telling the truth doesn't change the fact that your representation of what was established in your link was inaccurate.
My representation of what the link says:
quote:I linked the article to show that Allen only found out recently that he was Jewish, and that he had promised his mother he wouldn't say anything.
My reason for bringing it up:
quote: Your [Squicky's] post may be construed by some people to indicate that he had known for a long time, and was hiding it for political reasons.
Was 'construed' too strong a word?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
It may be construed by people that way, but those people would be doing as poor a job representing what I said as you did the article you linked.
Look, all you needed to do was put a "says" in there, as in:
quote:I linked the article to show that Allen says only found out recently that he was Jewish, and that he had promised his mother he wouldn't say anything.
That was my point, that the article did not in anyway establish more than that he says this. I'd even put this down to an imprecise statement if you weren't still fighting even the idea that him saying this doesn't automatically make it true.
As it is, I'm not sure why you're standing so strongly behind the integrity of this likely racist who clearly already lied at least once about this.
Posted by jasonepowell (Member # 1600) on :
I have a family member who is high up in Virginia's government (the non-elected bit) and has been for about 20 years. He says that Allen is the biggest idiot and was a horrible governor that coasted by because he's a friendly Good Old Boy sort of guy. So, I'll be voting for Webb, who is at least literate.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
As a resident of SW Virginia, I can say that Allen's "Good Old Boy" image is definitely what has kept him in office. He appeals to the religious majority down here by being a moral family man.
However, I've disagreed with most of his decisions and policies. I also feel like Allen has been a lot nastier in this particular campaign, and that's another reason I'm voting for Webb.
I'd love to see VA as a blue state in '08.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:I'm not sure why you're standing so strongly behind the integrity of this likely racist who clearly already lied at least once about this.
I don't support George Allen.
What I'm arguing for is the PRINCIPLE that when someone says "FACT X ABOUT MY PERSONAL LIFE," it is acceptable to believe that as a fact until/unless some evidence is shown to counteract it.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: What I'm arguing for is the PRINCIPLE that when someone says "FACT X ABOUT MY PERSONAL LIFE," it is acceptable to believe that as a fact until/unless some evidence is shown to counteract it.
But when that someone is a politician, and fact X could damage his chances to win elections, it is also acceptable to most people to be very skeptical.
Like Launchywiggen and others say, Allen's Good Ol' Boy image is crucial to his chance to win, and Kinky Friedman is the only Jewish Good Ol' Boy I know of. I wish that wasn't true of the Bible Belt but it is.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:But when that someone is a politician, and fact X could damage his chances to win elections, it is also acceptable to most people to be very skeptical.
Hmm... I think that kind of skeptiscism is beyond me.
As far as whether his Jewish ancestry will matter to Virginians-- at least one PoliSci professor doesn't think so:
From the linked article:
quote:Rozell said most Virginia voters are not likely to see the question of Allen's roots as an important one in determining how they will vote in November.
"I don't even think among some of the more hard-core religious conservatives in this state it will cause him any difficulty," Rozell said. "When it comes down to it in November, voters are going to look at George Allen's record, the war in Iraq, Jim Webb, a lot of policy issues."
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I am confused as to why people think this would hurt Allen's chances to win. It seems to have been bandies around as if it were true without even an attempt to back it up other than a correlation to some polls that is more easily explained by other events.
quote:As it is, I'm not sure why you're standing so strongly behind the integrity of this likely racist who clearly already lied at least once about this.
When did he clearly lie about this?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
From the article:
quote:"My mother's French-Italian with a little Spanish blood in her. And I was raised as she was, as far as I know, raised as a Christian."
In fact, Allen had just recently learned about their Jewish roots when he made those comments. Allen declined to comment, but his mother said she had sworn him to secrecy.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thanks, Scott.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Dag, You may want to read the thread again, then (edit: Hint, look 2 posts above yours). People have offered a pretty clear reason why this would hurt him. For that matter, learning a politician lied to you tends, at least among people I know, to often diminish someone's support for that politician.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Learning a politician's mother lied to him and he then honored her wishes actually makes him look better.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Scott, Generally, when I try to figure out if I should trust peopel to tell me the truth, I consider many factors, among them how likely this thing is, what they have to gain by not telling the truth, and what I know of the character of the people involved. Depending on these factors, I may consider it very likely that they are telling the truth, very likely that hey are telling me a lie, or somewhere in the middle.
In this case, I see no reason to believe what was said. That doesn't mean I necessarily disbelieve it, but I don't think accepting it as an established truth is at all warranted.
I think that the idea that "When people say things about their personal life, we should assume that this is true beyond a doubt unless we have specific evidence that these statements are false." while very nice, doesn't fit in very well with the way the world is.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:People have offered a pretty clear reason why this would hurt him.
The reason offered is that it would hurt him. It's been reworded a little (he depends on his good 'ol boy image), but that's still an assumption that I haven't seen backed up. I've spent a lot of time in Virginia politics and seen a lot of assumptions like that bandied about for years in the face of clear conflicting evidence. We elected the first black governor in the nation.
I'll be more specific: what are the reasons people think that Allen's basis of support is such that people finding out Allen is Jewish will cost him support?
As to the lying, the only proof anyone has that he lied is his own statement. He could have simply never revealed that conversation and easily said he had just found out.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Three Allen supporters--possibly campaign staff-- tackled/assaulted a blogger who shouted question(s) at Allen at a campaign event in a hotel. AP and CNN have picked up the story.
quote:The video showed the protester trying to get Allen's attention and asking the Republican incumbent about his first wife. "Why did you spit at your first wife, George?" the man asked.
To follow up on the Jewish debate: I'll take Dag's word that he knows Virginia and it's politics better than I.
One thing to consider though: it's not so much that he has Jewish ancestors, as the timing of the revelation. If he had been know for many years to have Jewish grandparents, the effect might have been more negligable, even among the NASCAR set. But to have it thrown out in the last days of a campaign makes it more of a wild card, and could magnify the effect.
edit:In other words, the Allen campaign lost control of the candidate's image, right before the election.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote: I'll take Dag's word that he knows Virginia and it's politics better than I.
How about the friend of mine I talked to from Virginia? How does his experience stack up?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I guess I'd say to your friend "I've been on the same server with Dagonee. Dagonee is a friend of mine. You, sir, are no Dagonee!"
But seriously, he's your friend, Mr. Squicky. I don't know about his views, and looking back in the thread you say he's not very political and I don't see his views or experience related, so
edit: BTW, Mr. Squicky, I like and respect both you and Dag. I don't know why you guys pick fights.
[ October 31, 2006, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Morbo:
If he used the timing of the revelation and the poll as part of his justification, I'd say he ignored a very important interim event - the Post story with the detailed racism allegations.
If he didn't use that as part of his justification, I'd say he's indulging in a common stereotype of Virginia that doesn't really play out. The two most populous areas have enormous numbers of people from out of state. Together, these areas are a majority of the people in the state. And many people who haven't lived in either Tidewater or Northern Virginia have mistaken view of Virginia.
Beyond that, there have been substantial changes in the more traditional areas as well.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
AFAIK, the timing of the revelation was unplanned by anyone. edit:I just realized you were talking about the timing vis-a-vis the analysis, not whether it was planned or not.
I didn't realize there were so many people from out-of-state in Virginia. Sounds like Atlanta metro, which has been transformed by migrants, first from the Rust Belt, more recently from Mexico, Central and South America, and Asia.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
In 2000, Virginia's population was about 7 million. 1.8 million lived in 4 counties and 5 cities around Washington, D.C. The cultural northern Virginia area probably includes two to five other counties and 2-3 other cities. (In Virginia, cities are not part of counties but totally independent.) Hampton Roads has about 1.6 million in 9 cities and 6 counties.
The DC area attracts a lot of people from out of state to work in the federal government and associated industries. Norfolk is the the largest Naval base in the country, and it's only one of several large bases down in the Tidewater/Hampton Roads region. So it, too, gets a lot of out of state people.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Aha, in this longer video of the assault/aggressive bouncing we can see that the former Marine who questioned Allen didn't ask "did you spit on your first wife?" (a rumor that's been going around lately) until after he was shoved and put in a head-lock by 3 guys who appear to be campaign staff. After he said that, one of them repeatedly said "now it's personal!" and they forced him to his knees and slammed him into a glass wall. It's unclear why he was pushed around and head-locked initially. See for yourself.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
There's an allegation that he pushed a staffer in an attempt to approach Allen.
It should be an interesting criminal case. I predict cross-complaints.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I agree, cross-complaints are likely. It's hard to tell on the video if pushing set off the conflict, or if it was just Allen's people trying to insulate him from an insistent questioner, but it escalated quickly. Even if a push from the blogger started it, don't the other 3 have to show restraint? From what I could see, the blogger didn't strike or fight back at all except to try to maintain his balance and position.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think this guy will have a hard time - the contact he made pushing around the guys is minimal, but he clearly had an obnoxious motive. Minimal contact suffices for misdemeanor assault if the contact is offensive, and his motive will be taken into account.
If he's guilty of assault, I doubt he can win a case against the three guys.
From his letter:
quote:I will be pressing charges against George Allen and his surrogates later today. George Allen, at any time, could have stopped the fray. All he had to do was say, "This is not how my campaign is run. Take your hands off that man." He could have ignored my questions. Instead he and his thugs chose violence.
I question his legal acumen here regarding criminal liability for Allen. There's no duty to "stop the fray" even when it's in your capability (assuming you, personally, didn't start it).
Further, this:
quote:I was attempting to ask Senator Allen a question about his sealed divorce record and his arrest in the 1970s, both of which are in the public domain.
Is fairly ridiculous. The records are sealed. Therefore, they aren't in the public domain.
Civilly, his case against Allen is stronger if these people worked for him (even as volunteers), especially if part of their job was crowd control. In that scenario, Allen would be the principal and the three men would be his agents. Their intentional torts (battery in this case) can be imputed to Allen in certain circumstances.
Again, though, his behavior will come into play.
I wish they had just ignored him, although I can see why they wouldn't want to let him get between them and Allen. If they hadn't touched him, I'd feel better about calling him an a-hole for doing that.
Edit: and let me add, those guys were flat out wrong. They would have been justified to basically set up basketball picks - force him to bump them in order to get by - but kicking him out was both dumb and an unjustified use of force.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Interesting New Yorker article from the Oct 30th issue, talking about the campaign controversies and giving interesting profiles of Webb and Allen (with more of a focus on Webb).
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I voted for my father-in-law.
Doesn't Webb have the longest forehead in the history of the world? It's like...an Easter Island statue...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If Webb wins, then the students and faculty of VMI pushed him over the edge.
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