Okay I'm doing some brain storming here and I don't want to say too much until I'm done but I just need some help.
I'm trying to come up with the drow word for "President"
I'm thinking of creating a title Communistic-esque fashion by combining multiple words and streamlining them to create the new meaning.
I'm thinking: Ust Ilythiiri which means first drow and shorten it to
Usiiri, meaning First Drow or First Among the Drow to mean President.
I know the title of the "Mule" in Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy was "First Citizen" I could find Ust to eman first but I could not find Citizen.
C'rintri means "Noble Drow" so, me thinks Ustrintim or Urintri, many possibilities exist me thinks.
Then there's Dalharuk, which means "Son" so Ustaruk for "First Son" which could be wider interpreted etymology wise to come from First Son of Lolth Ust Dalharuk d'Lolth, I'm obsessing over "First" because of the Drow's heirarchal class structure in their "Underdark Era" the great Noble Houses were ranked, Baenre being ranked as First and as such almost the rulers of Menzoberranzan.
So for a leader of a Drow nation I'ld think incorperating "First" into your title would be important nyt?
Opinions? Suggestions? I know this sounds kinda wierd but its part of a bigger intellectual effort/brainstorm here and I'll reveal all when the time is right.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I have no idea, because RA Salvatore, who created much of this, is a hack. He has the most distressingly inconsistent fictional languages I have ever read. The man wouldn't know a language family if it came up and smacked him.
Unless he's changed in the past five or six years. I stopped reading his stuff largely for that exact reason.
EDIT: Sorry to be such a downer. I hope your efforts work out better than Salvatore's, Blayne.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Come now. With all the excellent reasons to consider Salvatore a hack, you choose to pick on his lack of linguistic ability? Sheesh, conlang geeks... Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Well, there is all of that too.
But even at 12 years old I wondered how "Menzoberranzzan" and "Drizzt" could possibly come from the same insular language as "Malice." Oh, and chuck in a "Baenre" as well, as Blayne reminded me in his post.
Please, Blayne, make efforts to make your creation consistent.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: But even at 12 years old I wondered how "Menzoberranzzan" and "Drizzt" could possibly come from the same insular language as "Malice." Oh, and chuck in a "Baenre" as well, as Blayne reminded me in his post.
Though with names, it is hard to say. I have seen some very strange names here in the USA...in families that have been in America for generations.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
But I lvoe Salvatore's work =(
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
The US is hardly isolated or insular. They only speak one language in Menzowhatevertheheck. The US has just about every conceivable ethnicity in it somewhere, melting pot though it tries to be.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Men-zo-berr-an-zan how hard is it to remember sheesh.
Posted by Palliard (Member # 8109) on :
One should also remember that names in FR are just plain dicey because they come from a background that was mish-mashed together from many disparate elements... which, if you grow them from the bottom up the way you're supposed to, is how all home-grown campaign worlds eventually end up.
That said, I have distinctly noticed of Salvatore that he's pretty good at mining other peoples' ideas, but not so good at coming up with his own. Drizzt is a good example: that pretty obviously started as somebody else's PC in a game RAS was running (as did nearly all the characters from "The Crystal Shard"), and the further RAS took him away from that original concept, the more hackneyed he got.
I used to think of Salvatore as a "fun read" writer, but now he seems to be writing like he believes his own hype.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
bu bu but, RA Salvatore is one of my favorite authors, I cannot imagine not having read his books.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I haven't read any Salvatore for about five years, Blayne. I'm amazed I can remember how to spell ANY of his names.
Palliard, I could take that into account and deal with it for FR books. Though I doubt they had much to do with that Underdark trilogy. But he does it in every single book I've read. I plowed through quite a bit of his stuff before I gave up. Some of it is still on my shelves because You Don't Throw Out Books.
And some of the older stuff is at least fun. But yeah, not so much with the later stuff unless he imporved drastically since I stopped.
Seriously, though, Blayne, if you enjoy it, have fun with it. It's not for me, but don't let my opinion detract at all from something you enjoy.
[ November 07, 2006, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Eaquae Legit ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:The man wouldn't know a language family if it came up and smacked him.
Mwa haha!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:bu bu but, RA Salvatore is one of my favorite authors, I cannot imagine not having read his books.
Why not? Close your eyes. Imagine yourself. Now imagine yourself having never read Salvatore. What changes?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The adventures of Drizzt were very enjoyable without them I wonder how much Fantasy I would have actually read, and many little creative excersizes I do would probly never have happened.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Blayne: remember that the Drow are matriarchal so your word for president should reflect that.
It should directly translate into High Mother or First Mother or Mother of All.
Mother's gotta be in there somewhere.
If the president in your story or campaign (whatever you're writing) is a man, you could use this as a source of confusion.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'll explain more into what I am doing as soon as I finish writing all my ideas down but I wil say that lets suppose that the actual gender of the "President" is less important now and so the title can be gender neutral as long as it gives the accurate impression of political authority, although gender is an issue only as far as gender is an issue in todays presidential elections in the states.
Let the geusses of what I am working on begin.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:although gender is an issue only as far as gender is an issue in todays presidential elections in the states
I'm almost certain that what you're describing is antithetical to Drow society. The idea that the Drow would "elect" a leader or that, given the opportunity to elect a leader, they would elect someone who was not female, is completely inconceivable. The built-in presumption of that society is explicit matriarchy.
Given the Drow, "She Who Must Be Obeyed" or "Supreme Matron" would be fairly appropriate. I find it highly unlikely that a Drow leader would emerge who was not also a Head of House.
If a male were to emerge as a candidate for this position, I would expect a great deal of complaint based not only on tradition but terminology: "How can we accept X as Supreme Matron, given that he's definitionally not a matron at all?"
[ November 07, 2006, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Thanks Tom. The idea of arguing about a fictional race with Blayne gave me a Kirk Vs Picard flash I'd rather avoid.
But you said everything I wanted to say. Let's see if he listens.
Oh! And if they're going to vote, don't even *think* about Men's Sufferage. Any man who tried to exersize a franchise would probably end up a Drider.
Pix
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
ah but here's the point of whatI'm getting at I am not dealing wiht Ilythiirian society as it is now and I am planning of fully explain the turn of events that lead to it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Actually, a drow queen that was really male would make a kick-ass storyline, Blayne.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
One of those events, then, would be the creation of a gender-neutral term for "elected leader." Knowing the Drow, I would not be at all surprised if the literal translation of the term they came up with was "Suicidal Idiot."
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
No I decided to stick with Usthiiri, "First Among the Drow" since nationalism mixed with the tradition of the old ranking system (long since swept into the dustbin of history but not forgotten completely) pf first giving the expression of being the leader of the drow.
there are reasons why a predominently male/female centered society can become willing to allow a leader of the minority? gender under certain circumstances.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:there are reasons why a predominently male/female centered society can become willing to allow a leader of the minority? gender under certain circumstances.
In the case of the Drow, it's worth noting that their matriarchy is enforced by their goddess, who can back up her pronouncements with magic. The Drow pantheon would have to die or retire before their society could evolve to that extent.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
to me at least my interpretation of Lolth is that of a goddess who genuinely wants the Drow to grow ans develop as a people, and that the Clergy by and large interpret her will in cases of ambiguity to match theyre own designs and schemes, Lolth in her infinit wisdom would allow this (except in extreme cases like the failed assault on Mythril Halls where sacrifices child males was banned to ensure the survival of Menzoberanzan) as a means of helping to further the sociological evolution of the Drow, one day a revolution happens to "correct" the injustice of the Clergy perverting Lolths will and set up a government that more accurately reflects her will.
Lolth to me is a Goddess that wants change, adhores rigid thinking, and prefers chaos to order . Drow society is actually hypocritical in its rigidity in regards to authority being statis among a predictable system of backstabbing politics among the Noble Houses.
Its all things I've been thinking about for a long time, some evidence I can use to support this is the book involving Liriel who was in Lolths favor because she was a prankster who prefered to make things exciting rather then the dullness predictability of drow life, the Church considered many of her actions blasphemus and yet Lolth wanted her to be her "Chosen" this shows me a far more I geuss "Liberal" slant in Lolths will then many priestesses have ever concieved previously.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
and yes I have no life so I can concieve of these things at will.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Keep in mind that Lolth is also megalomaniacal, sexist and sadistic, and the only reason she wants her followers to "develop" as a people is to promote her name and avenge her losses. If she wanted to shake up Drow society, giving men a "vote" is a bit more merciful and creative than I'd expect from her.
Even among Drow, Lolth isn't usually a figure of respect; she's not loved by her people.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:to me at least my interpretation of Lolth is that of a goddess who genuinely wants the Drow to grow ans develop as a people
Ah so. Let's all keep in mind that you also believe that the Communist regime of China is actually quite benevolent.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Actually Liriel in some ways loved/held affection for Lolth up until she as a result of being a vessel of Lolths power harmed her human lover by accident, Liriel hadn't been absorbed by the sadisticness of Drow aristrocratic culture, she was a partyer, a prankster and took what she was exposed too in high sprits and with enthusiasm. The common Drow not taking part in politics or House on House rivalry might have a significantly different perspective on Lolth then the Priestesses/Nobles do.
There's alot of "ifs" here and not alot of information availiable so I'm doing the best I can.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
But Lolth has a personality. How a given drow feels about Lolth doesn't matter when compared to the "fact" that Lolth actually exists and has personal preferences. One of those preferences is for a matriarchial society full of cruelty; this suits her because, as I've said before, she's sexist and sadistic. These things aren't likely to change.
For the drow to abandon those traits, they would have to free themselves of Lolth.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
a personallity that isn't entirely clear and could change over time, she prefers females yes but certaintly it is not beyond comprensibility for her to not mind a male in some position of power if it suited her.
Remeber Lolth likes chaos, she likes change, a new government that freely swings in accordance to a certain level of randomness would suit her own desire for entertainment moreso because it helps her people develop.
Don't relgious folks on earth keep yabbering over and over who can understand "God's" will? The possibility of the Drow and their Pantheon to change with the times is not outside the realm of possibility.
Think of it this way, history for us at leats has proven that once a society leaves the Middle Ages era and enters the age of nation-states history gets alot more interesting and Lolth may very well allow these changes to happen if all else fails because it is change and change is chaotic and is perfectly inline with her Dictates.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)