Someone recently went nuts at me for suggesting the United State's might not in fact be in a healthy enough economic state to take in the number of immigrants (legal and illegal) as it does.
Does anyone here side with this (anonymous) person. If so, why? And could Australia do the same? How about China? South Africa? Jordan? (Just some examples)
I'll elaborate on my opinions after some responses, if I get any.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There are those who say that the United State's economic health depends on the influx of immigrants we're currently getting.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
The only way that could work that I can think of is if the average American employee is incapable (or not willing) to perform at a level that merits the pay they effectively (through Unions, Minimum Wage laws, etc) demand.
What were you thinking along the lines of, mph?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Exploiting a low-paid, lower (economical) class of people is something that the US economy has depended on from the beginning. The groups have changed, but has included slaves, immigrants from Ireland, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and now from Latin and South America.
Immigrants do an awful lot of the work in this country. If we got rid of them, we'd be hard pressed to fill the void.
I believe that, on the whole, immigrants give more to our contry than than they take from it. I think we should be more open about immigration, instead of spending our efforts figuring out how to keep them out.
Lousy GOP. Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
I understand how this kind of exploitation could have given the US a huge advantage over the centuries, but the idea that the US "has depended on it from the beginning" to be healthy seems a little farfetched to me.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Since we've never been without such a class of people, it's hard to prove one way or another.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Are we in a sick economic state? Growth is over 4%, IIRC, which is *very* high for an industrial economy. Unemployment's under 5%. I don't know the inflation rate but it doesn't seem high. Whatever we're doing, we need to keep doing it.
Sending home our foreign workers because we might have too sick an economy as a result doesn't seem sound.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Australia couldn't do the same because they have a severe water shortage problem. China couldn't do the same because they have an overpopulation problem. I'm not sure if anyone would want to immigrate to South Africa, given their crime, health, and poverty problem. I don't know much about Jordan, but it strikes me as another desert country that can't support a large number of immigrants.
The U.S. is plenty healthy to take in immigrants - we have enough space, and plenty of capital for immigrants to take advantage of. I'm from an area (Silicon Valley) where a significant percentage of the population is non-native - and that's a large part of the reason the area does so well. And it's not just well-educated Asians immigrants; we have very poor Mexican immigrants who are willing to do the dirty work that no one else wants to do. I respect them greatly for their hard work, and their families tend to move up the socio-economic ladder quickly.
I'm with mph - I want more immigration.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Will: we're not in a sick economic state, but we're in a much worse economic state than was expected by the Bush administration (or Congress, which had more pessimistic estimates), or should have been expected for this point after a recession.
Our growth is pretty good, our inflation is decent, and our unemployment is decent (and decent does not mean really good).
But In the past we've consistently done better, particularly in the latter two categories, after recessions of similar period. This suggests we should look at what we're doing differently this time and change it so that our growth isn't depressed in the future.
However, we've had lots of immigants around in the past, and I quite agree that we shouldn't be trying to force them out. Its an economically horrible idea, as a significant part of our productivity is related to their presence. More specifically, their presence is benefitting both them and us (this has been the subject of several recent studies, and the economic outcome has been decisive), so kicking them out seems extremely silly. Why would we want to kick out people, as a group, trying to make themselves better off and making us better off in the process?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I agree with Porter and fugu.
Fugu, you once previously linked to some of those studies of the net economic impact of immigration. Could you point me toward those again? This keeps coming up in my other conversations, and I'd like to have the facts handy. Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
In Australia the Labor Party (last in power) brought in mandatory detention to deter future illegal immigrants. The national sentiment was that illegal immigrants take jobs from citizens, and drive down wages. How are these not legitimate arguments?
The mandatory detention continues a decade later under the Liberal Party with the same sentiments behind it. Never, ever has water been mentioned as a reason. And I certainly never thought of it. But you're right.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Jobs are not a zero-sum game, that part of the argument is completely detached from any economic basis. Having more people around to do jobs results in the long run (which isn't very long in this case) with there being more jobs, assuming its reasonably easy for people to start businesses and hire workers (as it is in the US). Notice that our unemployment rate is nowhere near our percentage of immigrants, strongly suggesting that they are not 'taking jobs'. In fact, our unemployment rate is pretty decent right now and decreasing, so the quantity of immigrants would seem to have no nt negative impact on the quantity of unemployed.
As for wages, yes, in some professions the presence of people willing to do the same work for less will result in lower wages. Besides not being sure that's a bad thing, this is a relatively small list of professions. No matter how many immigrants work at a low wage job, lawyers aren't going to be paid less (likely more, for various reasons). But extremely importantly, that's in wages relative to other professions. A large part of the cost of living of the same people doing those jobs is dependent on the labor input from other low paying jobs. IOW, effective wage losses in terms of standard of living are small or nonexistent.
edit: I'll see about some links for you soon, Ic Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
Also, with them entering illegally you're given absolutely no idea of-- and no way of finding out-- their criminal records. They could be rapists, murderers, or anything entering by the boat load (and by foot). Does that not bother any of you?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I'm all in favor of hugely increasing legal immigration and providing ways to vet and legalize illegal immigrants, so that's not really something I'm terribly concerned with.
Illegal immigrants convicted of felonies either here or before arriving should likely be deported, of course, but its not like we're facing some disaster in that regard. Why tighten laws to defend against something that isn't happening? There's even been at least one study recently that found illegal immigrants were more law abiding than citizens, due to the greater consequences if they were caught.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Of course, Lyrhawn and I had a debate about this a while ago
I'm still waiting for most of the public to treat the illegal worker issue as an economic problem, not a social one.
The details of some of my particular ideas are probably anathema to most, on the Left and the Right (Let anyone who wants them get temporary work visas while looking for work? Drop the minimum wage?) but I can always dream, right?
-Bok
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
How about the U.S. take Australia's illegal immigrants since we can't afford them (given water shortages) or prioritise them even close to Australian Aborigines at the moment, and the U.S. can only benefit from them?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Also, with them entering illegally you're given absolutely no idea of-- and no way of finding out-- their criminal records. They could be rapists, murderers, or anything entering by the boat load (and by foot). Does that not bother any of you?
Wasn't your country originally settled by boatloads of criminals, literally? That turned out all right, didn't it?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:How about the U.S. take Australia's illegal immigrants since we can't afford them (given water shortages) or prioritise them even close to Australian Aborigines at the moment, and the U.S. can only benefit from them?
I only want them here if they want to be here.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
quote: our unemployment is decent (and decent does not mean really good).
quote: fact, our unemployment rate is pretty decent right now
What would you consider a good unemployment rate?
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
It would be optional. Go to any residence in Australia that we want (they will be informed where first) or get a working Visa and free trip to the U.S. (if the U.S. obliges), but either way they've gotta get out of those stupid detention centres.
Of course we'd need Americans to be willing first. And the best way to make that public is with a petition in the U.S. methinks.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The unemployment rate has only dropped a little despite being on what should be the upswing of a boom. The number of jobs created hasn't been very high, and a lot of the improvement in the unemployment rate has been people stopping to look for work. Some of that is good news, there might be more self-employment than before. Some of it is very mixed news (for the economy), as people live off savings and debt. Luckily, there has been little increase in people living on welfare.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: Of course, Lyrhawn and I had a debate about this a while ago
I'm still waiting for most of the public to treat the illegal worker issue as an economic problem, not a social one.
The details of some of my particular ideas are probably anathema to most, on the Left and the Right (Let anyone who wants them get temporary work visas while looking for work? Drop the minimum wage?) but I can always dream, right?
-Bok
I've recently changed my mind on some of the things we discussed Bok. It was a good debate, and I still think unilaterally lowering the minimum wage, while not taking into considerations the obscene impact that would have on the poorest America is an irresponsible and insane idea. However:
1. Kicking out 11 million people is ridiculous. It'll never happen, and it shouldn't happen. Many of them provide valuable services to Americans, and make sadly low amounts of money to do it. If they want to come here to be a better place, good for them, and good for us.
2. This is really a restatement of my previous position. I'm in favor of increased legal immigration and a guest worker program, for both educated and non-educated peoples. But I think before we drastically increase the number of people flooding into this country, we need to fix some of the domestic problems ailing America. We need to fix Healthcare. We need to fix education. We need to balance the budget. We need to work on our infrastructure. We need to clean up our environment. We cannot keep pushing back those issues for the next generation to fix. I think it is irresponsible to keep taking in millions of new citizens when we don't have a functional education system to teach their children, and flooding the schools with new students while not adequately addressing the issues is irresponsible. Adding new people, especially those from poor countries with less than reliable health services, in a country where we don't have our own problems sorted it will place added stress on our healthcare system. The argument goes on and on with infrastructure and the environment.
Clean up America then open the doors. It's the compassionate, American, responsible thing to do.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
It isn't the ones that would come in through an open door that I worry about, it's the ones that just broke the bedroom window and are climbing in that way.
I've illustrated my stance on this before, so I'll just sum it up here. Lock down the borders, adopt a much broader range of legal immigration allowances (or eliminate the allowance all together), make it easier to get a green card / work visa. Living in the general vicinity of the border, it isn't the immigrants that I have a problem with. It's the method and groups that have developed to help them skirt the current immigration system. Under no stretch of the imagination are Coyotes, Smugglers, or desperation runs across the desert a good thing.
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