Chapters 15-19, particularly.
Posted by The White Whale (Member # 6594) on :
This is OLD.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Steven. We've been through all this before. It's junk-science. Dr. Price was misled by his desire to validate pre-conceived notions. I have offered repeatedly to share knowledge of the scientific method with you so that you can avoid falling victim to the same error as Dr. Price. Are you ready to take me up on that offer yet?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Sure, if you'll do it online, in front of everyone, and if we do an analysis of each page of chapters 18 and 19 simultaneously.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
*starts selling refreshments*
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
"Peanuts! 50 cents a bag, get your peanuts!" "Cotton Candy! Free for the little ones, 75 cents for adults."
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*wack wack wack*
Sir, I have come to complain about this parrot! What's wrong with it? It has no life, sir! No, no. It's only stunned.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ignorant...and willfully so. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Hum. I've been reading comrade Price, in accordance with the challenge made this summer; I must admit that I find it slow going, though. At any rate, I must say I do think he makes a good case that a modern diet of processed foods - particularly sticky white bread - if you don't brush your teeth, will lead to massive tooth rot. Which was probably quite surprising in the thirties, who knows? There are still considerable concerns about the methodology; in particular, we are told nothing about how he divided people into 'modern-eaters' and 'primitive-eaters'. In fact, the division seems suspiciously complete, with almost no reported cases of people eating both kinds of food. One might almost suspect that he looked at the teeth first and then decided what dietary information he was going to pay attention to! But since the correlation of white bread, no toothbrushes, and caries is well corroborated elsewhere, I suppose we can believe him on this. Where he goes off the deep end is in the correlation with various other illnesses, for which he offers only anecdotal evidence - including some 'miracle cures' of a suspiciously snake-oil-like variety - and page upon page of statistics about the amount of vitamins X, Y and Z there are in various foods. Now, it's probably fair to say that his information about vitamins was new and important back in the day, when perhaps the chemistry for synthesizing the stuff wasn't so good, and preservatives tended to take out everything but calories. I rather doubt these things are still true, though; and even at that, as I said, only anecdotal evidence is offered for vitamin-deficiency illnesses. In fact, the contrast is quite sharp; in the early chapters, where he's going about checking on primitives, it's all "We examined X number of primitive-diet teeth, and Y number of modern-diet teeth, and found much higher percentages of caries in the latter." (He'll also give some pictures of narrow modern faces versus broad primitive faces, which amounts to anecdotal evidence since there is no account of how he avoided cherry-picking his photographs.) As mentioned, there are concerns with the methodology, but at least he gives by-God genuine numbers! But then when you get into the later chapters, it's all "I treated a boy" and "This lad was extremely malnourished". Anecdotes!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
*Sends goons over to knock down Stan the Man's stand.*
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
steven,
It's alittle bit dishonest of you to imply that I was ever unwilling to do all of this publicly. If you will recall, I offered to read Dr. Price's treatise if you would cause my critique to stay up on the Price Society website for one year. Barring that, I offered to read and critique it for the same sum you offered to pay KOM. You couldn't deliver on the first offer and refused the second.
I will read through it and begin my critique with whatever passes for his methods section, but I want something from you first. You have to stick with the discussion right through to the bitter end this time. If not, then I want your promise that you will never bring up Dr. Price on Hatrack again. If you do, I'll be here to quote your promise back to you in you own words.
So...promise and I'll start reading.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Hi steven. I'm so glad to see you back here at Hatrack. I can honestly say that I've missed you here, and that I look forward to reading your posts. While I may not always agree with your assertions, I do enjoy hearing you present and defend them, and I encourage your right to do so here.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
See...I disagree that he has actually defended his assertions. He has persisted in saying the same things over and over, without answering any of the criticisms with substantive arguments. And, when that fails, he leaves for a little while and then comes back with the same stuff, and the same assertions -- as if there had never been any prior discussions.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Well, some people are just more defensive than others, I guess.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Well...you are certain far more fair minded about this than I am. I should learn from you.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Tante is more fair minded than most of us, I suspect. She always seems to find the good and give the benefit of the doubt until absolutely no one could. That, or she's really making fun of us all but she hides it really really well.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
She's hiding it?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
She doesn't hide the teasing. She hides the mean-spirited sarcasm. That, or she's really nice.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
I wish it were sarcasm.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Liver and Onions sprinkled generously with pituitary glands and marshmallow-stuffed pancreas.
Deliciouso.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Hey, this thread turned into an "all-about-ME!!" That's awesome. You may all continue to hijack poor steven's earnest thread in order to sing my praises.
(Sorry, steven, the hijack was unintentional on my part. What can we do? My fans are unable to contain themselves. I would suggest that you might re-rail the thread by, you know, posting in it again. I look forward to you defending your position.)
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Uh.. can someone link the discussion Bob is talking about? I must have missed it entirely (or blocked it out).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I believe steven deleted the thread in question.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The bad thing about deleting posts is that you can't defend yourself when I start telling lies about what happened in there.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Price is Price. I didn't write the book. I take the dietary conclusions that the primitive groups all reached independent of one another VERY seriously for my own diet, but that's up to the individual.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I take the dietary conclusions that the primitive groups all reached independent of one
That's quite a claim.
I'll bite. What are these conclusions that every single primitive group arrived at?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Porter....read el booko, chapter 15. Organ meats, fatty body parts, fish eggs, and shellfish are all important for pregant women and young children to eat to facilitate normal skeletal development and general health.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There's no way that every single primitive group ate significant amounts of fish eggs or shellfish, as they are not to be found in many areas.
Posted by Baron Samedi (Member # 9175) on :
Steven, I don't know you very well, so this question may have already been answered elsewhere.
I notice that your email address is from a domain called "rawfoods.com". I don't suppose you have any financial interest in making people believe that they need to eat this way, do you?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Exactly, Porter. If you'll read Ch. 15 in el booko, you will see that both Africans and South Americans would travel hundreds of miles on foot, one way, to get shellfish and fish eggs.
[ December 04, 2006, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: steven ]
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
No, Baron.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Then please explain your affiliation with rawfoods.com.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Rawfoods mail is free and almost never down, and I've been with it so long it would be a monstrous amount of hassle to change it over.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Thank you.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
OK, I don't know steven or the history here but Bob said
quote: Steven. We've been through all this before. It's junk-science. Dr. Price was misled by his desire to validate pre-conceived notions. I have offered repeatedly to share knowledge of the scientific method with you so that you can avoid falling victim to the same error as Dr. Price. Are you ready to take me up on that offer yet?
which leads me to believe this has been discussed before. So do I misunderstand the situation/history or the definition and connotation of the word stumbled as used in the title of this topic?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Honestly, how in the world could steven make money on me not cooking my food?
A question, steven -- what do you think about populations that, for religious and cultural reasons, are largely vegetarian, such as Indian Hindus and Chinese and Japanese Buddhists? Do you maintain that their health is ill-effected?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Define "ill-affected".
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: Define "ill-affected".
Ummm...
More prone to maladies specifically caused by such a diet? Statistics?
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
I would imagine that she means: their health is impacted negatively because they do not comply with many of the precepts put forth by Dr. Price.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Honestly, how in the world could steven make money on me not cooking my food?
*sincerely
Selling books or subscribed newsletters about a raw food diet, selling supplements made from shellfish or the like, etc. There is always a way (potentially) to make money from an idea, and so it was a good question, IMO.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Since steven has a long and storied history of deleting these threads once it's clear that the tide has turned against him and the junk science he promotes, I think that another thread should be started before any serious discussion starts. Assuming anyone is intent on seriously discussing this stuff with him.
I'd just hate for anyone else to have posts they put time and effort into disappear when steven inevitably takes his ball and goes home.
Consider this fair warning for all those unfamiliar with his m.o. Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
You gotta love how white Americans wrote about other races back then: "The characteristics of the Polynesian race included straight hair, oval features, happy, buoyant dispositions and splendid physiques" (beginning of Chapter 8, italics added). Say what?
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: Exactly, Porter. If you'll read Ch. 15 in el booko, you will see that both Africans and South Americans would travel hundreds of miles on foot, one way, to get shellfish and fish eggs.
And Americans will wait in line, outside, for days for a chance to buy a video game console. Human beings aren't always rational in their actions.
Not trying to derail, just adding some levity to what will likely be thread with a short life span for one reason or another. I only say this because I too remember the first go around of this particular (and identical) topic.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Polynesians are buoyant and therefore float, whereas other races will experience equal, lesser, or perhaps complete absence of buoyancy.
DUH!
I'm white and I can remember the first time I took to the water, without that innertube I would have been a goner. I can only envy the Polynesians for being naturally buoyant, must come in handy when a ship sinks.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:you will see that both Africans and South Americans would travel hundreds of miles on foot, one way, to get shellfish and fish eggs.
You know, i have no idea if there were some tribes who did this or not. I do know that claiming it was or is universal is completely wrong.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
Oh, thanks for setting me straight, squick.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote: And Americans will wait in line, outside, for days for a chance to buy a video game console. Human beings aren't always rational in their actions.
Sorry for double posting but I wanted to address this.
Rational? Perhaps you think the stock they put into their entertainment is excessive but experiencing temporary discomfort and even outright pain in order to obtain longer lasting pleasure is perfectly rational. Why are women willing to suffer for 9 months and go into labor for hours even days in order to give birth?
Not that I am saying babies and video games are of equal value, merely that the principle is the same.
Even if you do not accept that, if you were like me. You did the math.
I make X in dollars everyday. The PS3 costs Y dollars. I can Ebay the PS3 for Z dollars. If I wait 2 days in line for the PS3 I give up X2 dollars.
If Z > (X*2 + Y)*3
What is irrational about accepting that loss in order to obtain a bigger benefit?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Honestly, how in the world could steven make money on me not cooking my food?
*sincerely
Selling books or subscribed newsletters about a raw food diet, selling supplements made from shellfish or the like, etc. There is always a way (potentially) to make money from an idea, and so it was a good question, IMO.
And this is also like asking why the guy on late night infomercials is TELLING you how to make a fortune instead of just going out and making his own. Part of the kick that diet-control freaks get out of their obsessions (sorry, judgement) is convincing other people that they're on to something... Or maybe they need to convince themselves by convincing others first. I don't see it much differently than I see religious cults or political extremist groups.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: Oh, thanks for setting me straight, squick.
Double posting again
Steven if you are unable to take the time to address other's points that is understandable but at least do them the courtesy of making them aware of that fact.
Making snide comments at other people's short posts whilst ignoring the sincere ones demonstrates an unwillingness to maturely discuss this topic.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: I would imagine that she means: their health is impacted negatively because they do not comply with many of the precepts put forth by Dr. Price.
Yeah. That's what I meant.
Oh, and Black Blade, sounds like somebody camped out on the pavement overnight to get his video game. Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
thanks to you too, blackblade, for setting me straight.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: I would imagine that she means: their health is impacted negatively because they do not comply with many of the precepts put forth by Dr. Price.
Yeah. That's what I meant.
Oh, and Black Blade, sounds like somebody camped out on the pavement overnight to get his video game.
Video Game CONSOLE. You can only make about 50-60 bucks on a video game typically.
Steven: No thank YOU.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm still waiting to hear if Steven is willing to take Bob up on his offer.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
much as I'm with Bob on this one, I'm sure steven would never accept the terms.
If someone came up to me and said, "hey will you make a deal where I come up with a bunch of evidence/logic that refutes special relativity will you stop posting anything about Einstein?"
it's entirely based on the premise that Einstein is in fact wrong and that there is no benefit to discussing his work. I'd potentially concede that point in the case of Price, but I'm sure steven wouldn't. Given that he agrees with the doctor, and probably thinks that he won't be disproven...
basically the deal needs to be re-worked.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That's not the important part of the agreement. Bob isn't asking Steven to stop posting -- he's just asking Steven to promise to not quit the discussion. The stuff about Steven promising to not bring it up only comes into play if Steven breaks his word and quits the disussion early as he is prone to do.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Point take BlackBlade about selling them on Ebay after the fact (though I have a dislike for people who do), but if that's the case than I'm more than willing to pass the illogical buck on to people who will pay two or three times market price for something because they can't wait an extra few days / weeks. And if you don't buy that, then go read the thread I have on the front page, and see if everyone in that whole event acted rationally...
And while I spend my $15 a month to play WoW like millions of other people, I couldn't compare the action of doing so to something that could provide the long-term satisfaction and general usefulness to the species as having a child (note: one child, no overpopulation debates allowed when debating the general usefulness of reproduction)...
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Make sure any analysis goes down in another thread, perhaps started by some third party.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Architraz Warden: Point take BlackBlade about selling them on Ebay after the fact (though I have a dislike for people who do), but if that's the case than I'm more than willing to pass the illogical buck on to people who will pay two or three times market price for something because they can't wait an extra few days / weeks. And if you don't buy that, then go read the thread I have on the front page, and see if everyone in that whole event acted rationally...
And while I spend my $15 a month to play WoW like millions of other people, I couldn't compare the action of doing so to something that could provide the long-term satisfaction and general usefulness to the species as having a child (note: one child, no overpopulation debates allowed when debating the general usefulness of reproduction)...
Why not? Or did you mean it in the sense that a child's weekly allowance is "incomparable" to the income of the US government?
Because they both get their money in the same way, "extortion" Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
mph, my bad. I just re-read the offer and you're right I hope that steven will take it up and think that similar offers should probably stand for most of our discussions here Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm perfectly happy to have someone mediate the agreement with steven if he wants that.
And, yes, having that person start the thread in which the discussion occurs is an excellent idea.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: You gotta love how white Americans wrote about other races back then: "The characteristics of the Polynesian race included straight hair, oval features, happy, buoyant dispositions and splendid physiques" (beginning of Chapter 8, italics added). Say what?
I must say I do not see this as particularly racist. He's saying Polynesians are more cheerful and smiling than he's used to. Many Europeans report that Americans are more likely to use first names and physical contact than they are used to; is this racism?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm more surprised by the "splendid physiques" thing. I mean, sure, lots of Polynesians in their teens and twenties probably looked pretty fit, but as a generality for all ages and "classes" of Polynesians? It seems pretty obviously false.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't believe steven's point of view, and am friends with Bob, but I would like to hear some debate on this issue myself.
I have also NEVER deleted a thread here on Hatrack, nor ever even started a mayfly.
I will start a debate thread. I will also promise to read Dr. Prices book completely if steven participates and doesn't bug out of the conversation. I read really fast, and could read the entire book in under 3 days, as long as I can do it after Christmas...I work in retail, so this is the busiest season for me as it is.
I don't think Bob is asking that steven convert his views, just that he make the attempt to defend the book he bases his life on.
Also, I have saved a copy of this thread on my hard drive. Any attempt to delete this thread will result in me posting it under my own name.
Also, please use only ONE screen name for this debate, steven. I don't care how many alts you have, but using them to portray a false sense of support on this issue would not be conducive to true debate. I am not saying that you have or have not done so in the past, but I AM letting you know it wouldn't be acceptable in the debate thread.
Same goes for you too, Bob!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Steven, how about this? Would you be willing to participate in a point-by-point discussion* on this topic with Bob? We could have Tante mediate it. I don't think you'll have find a more fair-minded individual than her.
I think that we could all learn a lot from such a discussion. I hope you'll be willing to do it.
*notice I said discussion, not debate.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
My alts are:
Lavalamp Posable_Man Wyatt_Urp (well, really, that's not mine, but I know the password) Ghost_of_Bob_Scopatz (I know, you didn't realize that was me!)
I have no others and will not create any new ones or use any of these for this discussion.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:I read really fast, and could read the entire book in under 3 days
Well, that's what I thought, and as far as sheer volume of text is concerned, it's true - I've done such things in the past. But then you have to realise that the book is really, really boring. The first fifteen chapters, for example, are all basically repeats; "We visited <insert ethnic group> and found such-and-such a diet, mucho tooth decay in the moderns, very little in the primitives, and here are some pictures of broad dental arches". Of course, this does mean you can skim some chapters rather quickly.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Bob, didn't you post as Smokey a time or two?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Oh yeah, I forgot that I registered my dog here too.
Yep, Bob (aka Smokey)...
(thanks Noemon...I was holding that one open as an ace-in-the-hole). Sheesh!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: We could have Tante mediate it.
You volunteered me? I don't know that this is wise.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Sorry about that, Tante. Even if Tante doesn't want to, I'm sure you could find a mutually agreeable party to mediate it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Steven -- I've asked you some questions. Please either answer them or at least acknowledge them in some way.
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