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Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
 
I was to USA only once, when I was thirteen so I didnt learn much about alcohol because I didnt drink then and because I didnt care;)

My country, Poland, is very well known for large vodka consumption (well said;), perhaps not as large as Russia, but close. It is rather true.

It is against the law in Poland to buy and drink alcohol under 18. Usually young people begin to drink about the age of 14, maybe 15. Hardly any 18-year-old doesnt drink at all.

Beer is naturally the most popular drink, for it is cheap and tasty (thats my opinion;). Vodka is cheap, but we drink it only on parties, you dont usually go to restaurant and order vodka, do you?

Wine is getting more and more popular, but still is too expensive (I mean, the real wine). The cheapest bottle of wine costs in Poland just as much as one litre of vodka.

My question is- how does the American "culture" of drinking alcohol look like? Is it normal to get drunken being a 16-year-old? What is the most popular alcohol? How old does one must be to buy alcohol? And what is your most favourite alcohol?

(Mine: on the very very very very very first place is beer Guinness, then Murhpy's and maybe Beamish. I dont like vodka, and I know little about wines, but I rather like them. Most popular Polish beers are Zywiec and Tyskie (pils). There are very few ales, porters, draughts and so on.
 

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Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 
Perhaps this is not answering your question, but I live in Australia and the situation is basically the same. De jure drinking age is 18, most start much earlier. Beer is most popular, but kids who fancy themselves as adventurous like vodka and spirits.
 

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Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
 
The drinking age in the U.S. is 21. Laws are more strictly enforced here than in Europe in my opinion. It's still common for teenagers to drink here, but we have to be sneaky about it. It can cause a lot of trouble with the law.
 

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Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
Despite the higher age limit, there's a decent amount of underage drinking that happens in the U.S. A lot of the 16+ high school students drink - normally they get the alcohol from a friend of a friend, have a fake id, or know some place that doesn't card (check an id to make sure you're over 21). I'd say the vast majority of college students drink - and most college students are between the ages of 18-22. Typically the older students buy it for the younger ones, or certain fraternities (houses containing a bunch of males who swear some sort of "brotherhood" pack together) throw parties.

There's a big difference in the attitude between Europe & the US, though. I lived in Germany when I was 17, and I know that, while the law may say 18, almost no one cares. In the US, the police and other authorities do care, but it happens under wraps anyways. Much more dangerous, I think, because teenagers are hiding it, and there's no one around to teach the kids how to drink safely (ie when to stop) or there in case of an emergency.

I'm fond of beers (not disgusting American beer like Budwiser, though), wine (I'm from California), vodka mixed with orange juice or Redbull, rum & coke, and tequila shots with salt & lime. Ah, it's lovely finally being 21. On Thursday our entire Philosophy Senior Seminar class (including the professor) will be going down to the bar.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
I'm from Canada, where the legal drinking age varies province to province from 18 to 21. I'm not a drinker, never have, so have no favorites or any experiences to share. I know quite a few others who also don't drink, but they're usually strongly religious (usually, not always).

I know many who started drinking at 12 or 13, but that was also in small hick-town Alberta where there was nothing to do and that particular town was uber pathetic. I'd agree with previous assessments that most start drinking around 15 or 16-ish.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
If America has an "alcohol culture" at all, it's a schizophrenic one. We are constantly bombarded with advertisements about how good and fun drinking is. College life drunken parties are a veritable cliche. On the other hand, there is a strong movement that would have you believe if you take a single drink you are unfit to drive a car, parent a child, or do just about anything else. Like so many things in America, the sensible middle ground is lost between the screaming extremes.

I don't care for beer. I do drink hard cider, and of those I think Woodchuck draft is the best. Vodka is probably the most sold liquor in the US, but I think that is because it is the most versatile mixer and has the most advertising dollars behind it. Personally, I prefer tequila, gin, and rum. To me Vodka just tastes like alcohol. The others have a more definite flavor all their own. More than liquor, I tend to drink liqueurs, and then more in the winter than in summer. I like to try many different kinds of liqueurs, but my absolute favorite is Liqueur de Frigolet which you can only get in the EU. (They don't export to the US. )

As you can guess, I don't really have a problem with people drinking. I think the only thing morally questionable about drinking under age (21 in the US) in and of itself* is that it is breaking a rather arbitrary law. I think there is a heathly attitude one can have about alcohol and there can be a healthy place for it in a culture. I think the extremes in America make it nearly impossible to find that healthy attitude as a culture.

As for myself, I never had a drop of alcohol until I was 27, but that was for religious reasons.

* I think binge drinking under age is a serious problem. I don't think, however, there should be anything wrong with teaching kids the proper place for alcohol and letting them experiment in moderation and with supervision. I still think marketing and selling to kids should be illegal, and probably also giving alcohol to a minor that is not your legal ward. Regardless, while I would support some changes in the current laws, I also do not think they should be disobeyed while they are still active laws.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Much also depends on where you live. In the very rural area I grew up, drinking was very common for those 14-18 -- there is a great deal of peer pressure to do so, and in the country it is very easy to get around the law. It is almost considered part of the "country/redneck" mentality to have consumed alcohol in high school; and most parties there revolved around that.
Rural high schools are trying to combat this, of course, and the culture may be changing some.

FG
 

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Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
 
What are these religious reasons? I dont know too much about religions, so in which cant you drink? Muslim? Some protestant?

I always wondered why is the drinking age so high in the USA. It is so unnatural, that you get your driving license while 16, (and its easy, I heard) and go to the army as 18. You can die for your Motherland, but cannot drink beer? What is more dangerous- going to war, driving a car or drinking alcohol. I am aware of health hazards that go with drinking, but hey, 21? Alcohol is a part of western civilisation (lets say that Poland is western;)

I, personally, was well educated and raised by my parents. They taught me never to drink too much, because it stupid. And so I dont. It isnt fun to throw up (well, somehow I know;) after drinking. But I prefer whisky to vodka, draught to pils.

Aha, and my most favourite drink is long island iced tea:) Delicious.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Yes, it's against Muslim's beliefs to drinks, and also against LDS (Mormon) beliefs to drink. I believe there are other religions that prohibit it, but I don't remember which off-hand.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Mormonism forbids the drinking of alcohol because of a doctrine known as the Word of Wisdom. This doctrine is based on text that Mormons believe is latter-day revealed scripture, through their prophet Joseph Smith.

I was raised Mormon and taught not to drink at all. When I left the church, I eventually experimented with alcohol, but taught myself how to drink responsibly.

My "most favourite drink" is the Margarita.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

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I always wondered why is the drinking age so high in the USA. It is so unnatural, that you get your driving license while 16, (and its easy, I heard) and go to the army as 18.

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One answer is that younger people drive like crap, even without alcohol.

Another answer is that it's part of a larger temperance push in America.
 

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Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
We are a nation founded by puritans.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
The Puritans drank beer.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Actually, I think they drank liquor, too.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
Bourbon Old Fashioned man here.
 

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Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
 
I can drink a puritan under the table any day


But seriously, I know dozens of minors who are responsible enough to handle alcohol and a couple who probably aren't. Is that enough to justify making it illegal? I don't think so, but it certainly is enough for some people to think so. There certainly would be some alcohol-related tragedies among the 18-20 set that are currently avoided, but there are two sides to that coin as well: I have known several people who were suffering from mild alcohol poisoning and neither they nor their friends wanted to take them to the hospital for fear of getting in trouble (They were more worried about their parents than the police, however.)

I didn't drink until I was 19 or so, and when I tried it I was surprised at how it felt to be tipsy. I didn't feel like I had lost control of anything, I was just a little tingly. I overdo the drinking on rare occasion, but I have never put my self in an unsafe situation because of alcohol (except in danger of getting sick, I guess ).

Take responsibility for your own actions and help others when they need it is my philosophy about alcohol I guess.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
Alcohol by BNL is a great song and really encapsulates my feelings about drinking. Look up the lyrics to see them all, but here's an exerpt:

quote:

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I thought that alcohol was just for those with nothing else to do.
I thought that drinking just to get drunk was a waste of precious booze,
But now I know that theres a time and theres a place where I can choose
To walk the fine line between self-control and self-abuse.

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quote:

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My "most favourite drink" is the Margarita.

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quote:

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My parents are "everything in moderation" kind of people.

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My parents are the same, and probably woulda let me have a beer or two at home when I was pretty young had I wanted. But DARE succeeded in brain washing me pretty well, so I was actually giving them a hard time about drinking during much of high school and middle school.

When I finally got over that and started drinking this summer they were downright relieved I hadn't touched a drop of alcohol till my 20th birthday. And since then I've never gotten sick, I stick to moderation. It's probably helped by the fact that my body seems to have a built in shut off valve: I stop having fun while drinking after about 5 or 6 drinks. I feel like I have a high fever and all the blood has rushed to my head. I also mostly snap out of it, inhibitions return, fully aware and the like. I've done that once since I started. I have fun after about 4 though.

As for the drinking culture here, at Skidmore anyway, we don't have frat houses. So no frat parties. But drink is easy enough to get ahold of anyway. Pretty much just ask any of your upper classman friends. There is also plenty of alcohol available at parties. Campus Po does try and cut back on it, but they're not that good at it. And the only people who really care is Residential Life. No one else does, the prof's included.

The result is that the cultures pretty easy going. I really like it. Skidmore is closer to Europe in it's drinking culture in a lot of ways.

As for favorites, I'd have to go with beer. I've tried vodka and some mixed drinks. But there's nothing like a good beer, my favorite being Newcastle Brown Ale. I hate straight vodka, it just tastes like rubbing alcohol.
 

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Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
 
I don't have a significant problem with drinking, and at least on occasion I will drink and often-enough enough to get at least somewhat drunk.

Nato, I do have a problem with your assessment of responsible teens. not that I think the age 21 is some magic number where people are suddenly more responsible, but about half the mid-twenties that I know don't know how to handle alcohol responsibly, so my arbitrary statistics about nullify yours =p

In general though I do think we're much better off educating teens and college-age individuals on how to safely handle alcohol rather than just straight up saying "drinking is bad." Knowing your tolerances is infinitely more useful than being completely unfamiliar with the stuff. And the fact that we largely don't talk about it I think makes it a lot more likely that kids are going to get sick and/or do some really stupid things when they first start drinking. (knowing things like Everclear and Absynth are bad etc..)

as for personal preference:
Margaritas, Long Island Iced-Tea when I'm looking to feel it, Octane 180 (I've only ever seen it at one bar back at school) and my "grown-up" drinks gin&tonic or vodka tonic.
 

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
Does anyone have any good statistics on Deaths due to DWI for older teens before and after drinking age limits were raised, similar details on teen-age pregnancies.

These are the two main reasons given for limiting alcohol consumption.

I've known teen age girls who would brag about how fast they could pass out at a party.

I've known teen age guys who would calmly explain that when they drive drunk, they drive better.

While I won't take my ancedotal accounts as evidencs, I do believe that their are statistics which support keeping a high minimum drinking age.

Let me note that I am not a drinking man.

I do have several addictions.

I am addicted to 2 mind altering substances

1) Books
2) Hatrack.

I am addicted to 2 mind killing substance

1) TV
2) Puns.

I do have one admitted chemical addiction.

Chocolate.

So I just don't find the time to add alcohol to the list.

Besides, I discovered in high school--alcohol is the world's best spectator sport.
 

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Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle:
I don't want to teach my kids that drinking is evil and should never be done because I think that attitude is a bit unreasonable

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quote:

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quote:Originally posted by Belle:
I don't want to teach my kids that drinking is evil and should never be done because I think that attitude is a bit unreasonable

Originally posted by BaoQingTian: I will certainly teach my children that drinking is wrong for them to do and should never be done. I consider it to be very reasonable, at least as far as religious beliefs can be.

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I'm with you Belle, if I did -- or perhaps I'll be more optimistic and say: when I do, have kids I'll not teach them that drinking is evil. In fact I'll probably go the way of letting them drink a little at home if they want to. Where I can teach them how not to get sick or over do it, and also how to properly enjoy it
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I'm a bit of an anomaly as far as drinkers is the US. I didn't drink before I turned 21. Oh, I had sips of this and that, but never an actual drink. I could have, but I didn't want to.

I turned 21 this summer, since then I've been drinking a little. I've still never been drunk. I'm planning to this Christmas Break though, by playing a Buffy drinking game. I think that is an appropriate way for me to get drunk for the first time.

My boyfriend's 21st was this Tuesday, so I went to my first bar. It was a nice experience, and I'd like to go back. However, it was really expensive, so that's going to have to wait until I have a job.

Of the drinks I've sampled I like beer. A lot. I haven't had enough beer to be discerning about it. The draft Guinness we had at the bar the other night was amazing. I like White Russians, but only when I make them, I like more kahlua and less vodka. I also like red wines, but can't stand white or pink ones. In general, I don't like sweet drinks, or drinks with too much hard alcohol in them.

I'm still trying things out and figuring out what I like, though. It may turn out that with practice I can handle hard alcohol. I might become a beer snob. I'm looking forward to finding out.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

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Alcohol by BNL is a great song and really encapsulates my feelings about drinking.

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I love that song myself.
 

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Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
 
Some disturbing trends that I've notice in alcohol use in the USA.

First a preliminary note: I'm generalizing, of course there are plenty of exceptions to what I'm going to say, but none the less I think there is some validity to my statements.

Schizophrenic Alcohol Attitudes-

That is very true in the USA. On one hand TV, movies, and advertising make alcohol look cool and promote its use. Meanwhile there are groups who make it their life's mission to denounce acohol as the spawn of the devil; evil to the core.

Reasonable people know that neither position is correct. It is hard to say the alcohol is evil when everyone in the Bible including Jesus is drinking it. Though there are logical reasons for that. So, I really don't think promoting alcohol as evil is going to turn anyone away from it.

Reasonable people also know that a safe sane and logical approach to alcohol is to embrace the middle ground; moderation in all things. Unfortunately, people are far more influenced by cultural attitudes than logic and reason.

Age and Alcohol-

Currently there is a Federal Law that sets the drinking age at 21. States are free to refuse IF they want to give up many many millions of dollars in Federal Aid, so no states have set the legal drinking age lower than the Federally mandated 21.

However, in the not too distant past, the Federal Government allowed the drinking age to be as low as 18. My personal experience was that this caused few problems. However, some people started to complain, and when the government was considering raising it back to 21, the kids age 18 to 20 did nothing to make their voice heard. I was over 21 so I couldn't see any reason why I should fight for it, if the people who were affected weren't willing to fight. So, it was changed to age 21 nation wide.

At one point, this matter was left strictly to the individual states. In Minnesota, which is somewhat liberal, cities could decide for themselves with in the state law how the wanted to handle alcohol. For example, Minneapolis even today is considered a 'dry' city. Yes, there are many liquor stores but the generally close very early on Friday and Saturday nights. In some cases around 8:30pm. Thought they are open to 10:00pm on weekdays.

Iowa back in the 'old days' was considered a dry state. Licensed taverns could sell beer, but no hard liquor. Hard liquor could only be purchased at State run liquor stores. Each person had a ration of liquor and strict records were kept. When ever you went into any liquor store anywhere in the state, you had to present you 'liquor book' and have the purchase recorded. Though, the changes in Federal law has allowed, year ago, the sale of liquor by the drink and turned liquor store over to private enterprise. Also, the state decided it was a liability for them to be in the liquor business.

Wisconsin, on the other hand, has always been a very liberal state. An for many many years the legal drinking age for beer was 18. It was very common for kids from border towns to cross into Wisconsin to do their drinking. There is even a stretch of road between Minneapolis and the Wisconsin border the the Minnesota Highway Patrol has named 'Death Alley'. Though that is more media hype than reality.

The point of this little history lesson is that back when it was left up to the states, it varied greatly. I suspect down south there were even states that were completely dry; no alcohol sold.

Though, despite the current drinking age, I will admit there are high school and underage college drinking parties going on all the time. The problem is, when the drinking age was 18, 18 year olds were in a bar with other people who tended to moderate their behavior. At high school and college parties, there is no one to set limits and establish reasonable boundaries.

Cultural Differences -

Again, this is a generalization, but I think there is some truth to it. In Europe, I think drinking is more culturally ingrained, and because of this younger people are introduce to drinking at a younger age but under much more controlled situations like family dinners, holidays, and other times when the amount is very strictly controlled by adults, and the presents of adults assures that behavior doesn't get out of control. So, kids are taught to drink reasonably in a social context, and by the time they are able to legally drink they have it in perspective and, within the limit of youthful enthusiasm, are able to drink much more moderately.

In the USA, this ingrained culture, the presences of alcohol in a moderated and controlled context, isn't there. Keeping mind that the USA doesn't have a 1,000 year of history and civilization to draw on. Our culture developed out of the wild wild anything goes west. Consequently a lot of adults are not able to teach responsible drinking because they are not themselves responsible drinker.

My view of drinking by most high school and collage age kids is that they are hell bend on trying to get as close to death as they possible can without crossing the line. Drinking games at high school and college parties are very common. As an example, in some places it is something of a tradition to go out to the bars at midnight on the morning of your 21st birthday and drink 21 shots of 'whatever' (tequila, whisky, voda, etc...) sometimes in 21 minutes. Who in their right mind would think this was a good idea? All drinking games hinge on getting as blind stinking drunk as you possible can as fast as you possibly can. Like I said, you try to get as close to death as you can without actually crossing the line. Sadly, fatal alcohol poisoning happens frequently on college campuses.

Why does this happen? I say it is because kids teach kids how to drink, rather than responsible adults teaching kids how to drink in a reasonable balanced and moderate way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure binge drinking occurs everywhere in Europe, but I doubt that it is at the same percentages and with the same underlying purpose as is found in the USA.

Evils of Alcohol-

I think it is a mistake for parent to try to convince their kids that alcohol is totally evil. That is an unrealistic approach and one that is counter by every other source of information they have.

I think it is far better to teach your kids the POTENTIALLY distructive aspects of alcohol abuse. To teach them the warning sign that they are likely to have problems with alcohol. For example, at a college drinking party, the more alcohol you can drink the higher you preceived status. But the reality is that if you have a very high capacity for alcohol, you most like have an even higher likelihood of having problems with alcohol that will negatively affect your whole life. Excess capacity is the sign that you need to make an even greater effort toward moderation.

Personally, I have a relatively low capacity for alcohol, so I had to learn to pace myself. On a few occassions some young friends of mine commented how they were amazed that I could drink all night long and not seem to get excessively drunk. They were disappointed when I told them I was drinking the same two or three beers all night long and that more than anything explained why I never go excessively drunk.

Back to the evils of alcohol, it is not alcohol that is evil, it is the RESULTS of alcohol abuse that is evil. It is the result of unrestrained and unreasonable alcohol use that will cause the problems in you life. If you are aware of these potential problems far in advance of actually drinking, you have a much better chance of recognising when and if you have problems with alcohol. For example, it you have a high capacity and find that you are unable to restrain yourself to moderate drinking, then that is a real good sign that you should probably quit all together.

Foreknowledge and awareness are your greatest resources in preventing alcohol problems in life. Characterizng alcohol as universally evil will not work because all the evidence that surrounds your kids in daily life contradicts this. Certainly, do encourage them to avoid alcohol, but also teach them to recognise the early danger sign of problems with alcohol so they can cut it off before any damage is done. And if they do choose to drink, teach them that moderation is the key, and more importantly that chasing death by alcohol will most certainly lead to losing sooner or later.

Well, that certianly was a lot of talking, let's hope I actually manage to say something.

Steve/BlueWizard
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Where I'm from we had "Dry" Counties. that meant no alcohol sold at all in the county. And I believe it was even illegal to posess.

My county was not dry but the surrounding counties were. Benton, McDonald (Mo.), Sebastian and Madison (a.k.a. Booger) were all dry. They would have to drive to my county to buy their booze. Liquer stores would sit right at the county line with names like "Last Chance Liquer"

People would drive to the DRIVE THRU WINDOW and then return to their Dry County with their illicit booty.

Pix
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
Actually, I think they drank liquor, too.

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Where I'm from we had "Dry" Counties. that meant no alcohol sold at all in the county. And I believe it was even illegal to posess.

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alcohol is the world's best spectator sport.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlueWizard:
Wisconsin, on the other hand, has always been a very liberal state. An for many many years the legal drinking age for beer was 18. It was very common for kids from border towns to cross into Wisconsin to do their drinking. There is even a stretch of road between Minneapolis and the Wisconsin border the the Minnesota Highway Patrol has named 'Death Alley'. Though that is more media hype than reality.

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Our culture developed out of the wild wild anything goes west.

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Alcohol in colonial America was consumed on a far greater scale then it is even now. Children grew up drinking it. At the time alcohol was typically safer to consume then water.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:

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Our culture developed out of the wild wild anything goes west.

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Alcohol in colonial America was consumed on a far greater scale then it is even now. Children grew up drinking it. At the time alcohol was typically safer to consume then water.

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I think the country is, in many ways, at its most fastidious and ascetic. Witness the recent trans fat stupidity in New York.

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quote:

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I think it is a mistake for parent to try to convince their kids that alcohol is totally evil. That is an unrealistic approach and one that is counter by every other source of information they have.

I think it is far better to teach your kids the POTENTIALLY distructive aspects of alcohol abuse. To teach them the warning sign that they are likely to have problems with alcohol.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlueWizard:
I was not in any way discounting or discrediting your religion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlueWizard:
Reasonable people also know that a safe sane and logical approach to alcohol is to embrace the middle ground; moderation in all things.

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As soon as you begin an argument with "Reasonable people know..." there's no point in continuing the discussion. You've already labelled everyone who disagrees with you as unreasonable. You've already discounted all opinions and beliefs that fall outside your chosen criteria.
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
quid: I think he was just overlooking religious objections rather than actively arguing against them. I definately got the impression he was only addressing secular arguments.
 

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Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 
Steve,

I have not detailed how I would teach my kids that alcohol is wrong, I merely said that I would be teaching them that it is wrong, as opposed to it being morally ok. I was merely responding to the suggestion that teaching anything but alcohol use being ok is unreasonable. After I attempted to clarify, you persist in implying that I said I'd be:
"simply repeating 'it evil', 'it's evil' over and over again." That is not the case, and I resent the implication that I would merely answer all of their inquiries on the subject with "Alcohol is teh DEVIL!"

Let me make this absolutely clear. I will teach my kids that Heavenly Father has said that drinking alcohol is wrong. I will also teach them not to look down on others who do so, because other people's differing beliefs result in other moral standards. Furthermore, I will teach them the potential dangers of alcohol use and abuse, explain the continuum of alcohol use, and let them know what is socially and legally acceptable in this country. When they grow up, they'll have to make their own decision on the matter.

It looks like you're trying to apply what you see as a general standard in this country to my specific responses in this thread. I simply want to make you aware that you are mistaken in doing so.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Where I used the word unreasonable I used it to refer to the mindset that alcohol is evil. Alcohol is a substance, it can't be good or evil. What you do with it or while under the influence of it may well be good or evil, though.

I do not think drinking a moderate amount of alcohol is a sin. I can't wrap my head around that concept when Christ, the ultimate example I'm supposed to aspire to, not only drank wine but one of his miracles was creating it.

If you want to teach your children drinking is always wrong, then by all means do so. I don't find that reasonable for me and my family. It may well be reasonable for you under you belief systems, so have at it.

I wholeheartedly agree with Steve about knowledge being power. I talk to my kids about alcohol, particularly the teenager and why abusing it is a bad idea and what the consequences for abusing it could be. Same way I talk to her about premarital sex. "God says it's wrong" is never the only reason given for why not to do something.

I don't think it's right or healthy for me to teach her that alcohol and sex are bad things - both can, under the right circumstances, be pleasant ways to while away an evening. I just want her to know that the best time to spend evenings drinking alcohol in moderation are when she's over 21 and not going to driving, and the best way to enjoy an evening of sex is with her husband.
 

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Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
 

quote:

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quote:Originally posted by quidscribis:

quote:

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quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard:
I was not in any way discounting or discrediting
your religion.

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Even when you say things like this?

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quote:

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quote:

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Originally posted by BlueWizard:
Reasonable people also know that a safe sane and logical approach to alcohol is to embrace the middle ground; moderation in all things.

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As soon as you begin an argument with "Reasonable people know..." there's no point in continuing the discussion. You've already labelled everyone who disagrees with you as unreasonable. You've already discounted all opinions and beliefs that fall outside your chosen criteria.

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Well, believe it or not, there are 'reasonable' and 'unreasonable' people in this world and depending on the issue, each and everyone of us can and probably do fall into both catagories.

Unreasonable people believe it is cool to try to drink yourself to the edge of death a couple of times a week. Reasonable people know that it is far better to live than to repeatedly tempt death, so they proceed moderately through life.

Moderation does not necessarily mean engaging in immoral vices to a smaller degree, it means proceeding through life that is balanced with knowledge and common sense. To you, your knowledge and common sense may tell you to steer clear of alcohol altogether, and that's great. Another person may take the same information and judge that a controlled and measure amount of drinking is OK. But, there is simply no way that a person who goes out to drink 21 shots in 21 minutes is engaging in any form of moderation or reasonableness in his slim and precarious attempt to tempt death and win.

I'm not sure, but you seem to be picking at a word while ignoring the greater message in my post.

Regardless of whether you 'got it', other people seem to have understood what I said in context.

Just one man's opinion.

Steve/BlueWizard
 

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Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
 
BaoQingTian,

Thank you for that clarification, but we obviously have a slight misunderstanding. In my original post, I was not attacking you personally, but addressing the concept that "it's evil" with nothing else was a wise approach to alcohol education. Again, my comments were addressed at the subject in general, and to all people who MIGHT take this approach; NOT at you personally. That thought never occurred to me.

You commented (I believe) that you would teach your kids that alcohol is evil, I took that as the stimulus to address a broader and very real issue, at least in my mind.

So, again all my comments in my original post and in my reply were toward the broader issue. I've read your posts in many threads in the past and have always found them (and you) to be intelligent and well thought out, and would never under any circumstances level a personal attack.

Again, I was attacking (if you can all it that) a broader and more general concept.

If any offense was felt, then you certainly have my apologies. But I still stand by what I said IN GENERAL.

Regards,
Steve/BlueWizard
 

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Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
 
I visited Italy with my family this summer and developed a taste for wine that I hadn't had previously. On one occasion I even saw a kid who looked to be about twelve or thirteen buying a bottle of wine. My sister, who was studying abroad there, caught a bit of the conversation between him and the shopkeeper, and said he was buying it for his parents. There are probably some places in the US where this could happen, but I've never seen it before. I was surprised and a little amused at how different the attitudes are.

While we were there, my sister and I (I'm 23, she's 21) took the opportunity to get our younger brother sloshed once or twice. He turned 15 this year and is a junior. I don't think he'd been exposed to alcohol before that, though both my sister and I had at that age. We both decided that it would be a good idea if his first few experiences with alcohol were in a controlled setting, to give him an idea of what the effects were like.

I have friends whose parents would buy alcohol for their kids and their friends, on the condition that they consumed it at home, and nobody got their car keys back until the next morning. They reasoned that the kids would be drinking anyway, if that's what they wanted to do, and decided to provide a safe, moderately controlled environment. It's something that makes a lot of sense to me.
 

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Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
 
I've read that the human mind isn't mature enough to properly deal with alcohol consumption until age 24.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
My experience with alcohol is somewhat different from what most people are relating here. My mother's father was an alcoholic, and it did an awful lot of damage to his family. He died young, when I was a toddler, so I barely remember him, but his legacy of pain lives on in my mom.

I dated seriously for a while, about 12 years ago, a guy whom I gradually realized was an alcoholic. I don't feel like telling about it here, but suffice it to say that he destroyed his life because of alcohol. This was the first time I had witnessed addiction in someone very close to me. It was bad. He would lie, trick the people he loved, use every good impulse that anyone had toward him, and burn all his bridges forever, anything at all, to get drunk. Drinking mattered to him more than love, family, honor, decency, and life itself. It was pathetic.

The way I feel about alcohol is that it is very unwise to drink it. I don't know anyone who drinks who hasn't had more to drink than they intended at least once. When they have more than they intend, they set themselves up for serious accidents (one friend fell off a balcony and nearly died). And what is the payoff? What is the good that we get from drinking? As far as I can see, it's simply this: "paaaaaaaarteeeee, wheee!" I don't see how that compensates us for the damage we risk, and for the wasted lives of those among us who are destined to become alcoholics if they are exposed to it.

Far better and wiser, in my opinion, to make the decision as a community to spend that money on something that builds instead. Something like education or healthy food, books, toys, or games. I'm a convert to Mormonism, and yet, one of the reasons I was attracted to the community of the LDS is that they were obviously wise and astute, since they had decided as a group to forego the use of alcohol. Though I was raised in a family who drank, I stopped drinking myself years before.

I don't think my position is at all unreasonable or extreme, of course. I think it's simple wisdom. How much wholer would my family be if there were no alcoholics among us, if that damage did not extend back through the generations? How much pain would we have avoided? How many more resources would we have had, if so much money had not been spent on alcohol through the years? How much more health and longer life would my grandfather, my great uncle, and others who died young of alcoholism have enjoyed? To me there is simply no question about it. Choosing not to drink is the wisest choice.
 

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Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tatiana:
Choosing not to drink is the wisest choice.

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quote:

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I don't see how that compensates us for the damage we risk, and for the wasted lives of those among us who are destined to become alcoholics if they are exposed to it.

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quote:

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"Does everyone agree that Alcohol's (as a beverage) potential for ill outweighs its potential for good?"

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quote:

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"Does everyone agree that Alcohol's (as a beverage) potential for ill outweighs its potential for good?"

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quote:

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On top of that, everyone I know who drinks, even a little, has, at least once, had more to drink than they intended. This means they were at risk of making poor decisions that could destroy their lives or the lives of others.

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quote:

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But isn't the same also true of fattening foods or candy or tobacco?

I mean, I think you could say that for people to have private cars has more potential for ill than potential for good because of the pollution and the traffic accidents. The benefits of private cars could (at least potentially) be also achieved with better public transport systems.

I think in issues like this it's the personal responsibility that matters the most.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JonHecht:
I've read that the human mind isn't mature enough to properly deal with alcohol consumption until age 24.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tatiana:
On top of that, everyone I know who drinks, even a little, has, at least once, had more to drink than they intended. This means they were at risk of making poor decisions that could destroy their lives or the lives of others. The tragedies are more likely the more often you get drunk, but getting drunk only once puts you at some risk. When it's all said and done, your choice is clear.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bokonon:
Alcohol abuse always causes more ill than good. Alcoholic drinks in moderation (3-4 a week) have shown in some studies more good than ill. Most people could follow the latter moderation, but not all, and those that can't actually have a disease that is the root of the problem, not the alcohol. Or you might as well say we should blot out the sun because lots of people get skin cancer from over-exposure, and some people have diseases that make them unable to be exposed to it for more than a minute or two... Never mind the fact that sunlight also facilitates the production of certain vitamin in our bodies.

-Bok

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bokonon:
Well of course, deciding to not drink it at all is a perfectly mature, sensible position to take. But it isn't the only mature, sensible take, for all people.

Your assertion of the ill > good is baseless when applied to the world at large. I understand it is informed by your religion and I respect that. As I note above, it is a mature, sensible approach to alcohol.

Ultimately the contention is more based on assumptions of human tendencies and behaviors that we likely don't agree on.

-Bok

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quote:

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But I am arguing that if we could document the evil that has taken place because of alcohol and compare it to the good that has been accomplished we would have a VERY impressive case against its consumption.

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I think ultimately the good would win out, not because of some grand gesture, but because of many millions of small joys, and untold benefits to the health of those that drank moderately (or even seldomly).

Maybe it'd be statistically a dead heat, but I don't think that it is worse just because you say so; my anecdotal evidence is to the contrary.

[As an aside, the sun is possibly a net negative, because in 5 billion years or so, assuming nothing has beaten it to the punch, it will obliterate all the life on this planet that it sustains... Though maybe that just zeroes out the ledger ]

-Bok
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
Lots of alcohol tastes very delicious. Anyone who doesn't abuse it or drive while under its influence is only getting the good benefits.

Although, I like the idea of Speak Easys, so if prohibition comes back, I think I'll enjoy it
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Mmm... I've never drank more than I intended. So now, Tat, you know one person.

I've been slightly tipsy twice but I have never been drunk.

I was scared I would have a genetic pre-disposition toward alcoholism because of my father, but I don't.

If you choose not to drink, more power to you. But understand that a great number of people get pleasure out of it with no ill effects.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bokonon:

quote:

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But I am arguing that if we could document the evil that has taken place because of alcohol and compare it to the good that has been accomplished we would have a VERY impressive case against its consumption.

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I think ultimately the good would win out, not because of some grand gesture, but because of many millions of small joys, and untold benefits to the health of those that drank moderately (or even seldomly).

Maybe it'd be statistically a dead heat, but I don't think that it is worse just because you say so; my anecdotal evidence is to the contrary.

[As an aside, the sun is possibly a net negative, because in 5 billion years or so, assuming nothing has beaten it to the punch, it will obliterate all the life on this planet that it sustains... Though maybe that just zeroes out the ledger ]

-Bok

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fair enough. You win this round Bok!
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 
(Hoegaarden & Jack)
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tatiana:
I read a very interesting article in Scientific American about what alcohol and other dopamine-active addictive substances do in the brain.

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Anne Kate, Do you by any chance have the reference for that article? If not the exact reference, do you know approximately when it was published?
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Some time in the last ten years, maybe? I wish I could narrow it down further. I should have kept a copy of it forever, because it was really enlightening to me. It sort of explained to me how someone who was once so honorable and good could have ended up willing to lie, cheat, steal, manipulate others, etc. It explained a lot about why the cravings to fall off the wagon are so powerful, even long after someone has quit. It greatly increased my understanding of the enemy (alcohol and its effects on the brain).

Perhaps a search on "addiction" would turn it up. Do you have access to the electronic files of all the SciAm issues for the last 10 years or so?
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
Anne Kate, Is this the article?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
People can end up addicted to anything, though. Chocolate, alcohol, the Internet, video games. I don't think the potential for addiction alone is enough to say that alcohol is bad for all people. And I'll say, I HAVE had more to drink than I intended on occasion, and I still don't think that the alcohol is to blame or that it makes alcohol inherently bad. It means I did something stupid. And I've done a lot of stupid things involving plenty of stuff that isn't a substance. People do stupid things sometimes.

I mean, if anyone wants to choose not to drink, that's fine. I don't try to get people to drink who've decided it's not for them. But on the same note, I don't think that people who've decided not to drink should try to get me to change my decision, either. It goes both ways.

-pH
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Rabbit, that's not the article. My article was in the regular SciAm, not SciAm Mind, which I don't take. The article I read, I think was more detailed and technical than this about dopamine and the condition of the receptor system. It didn't focus so much exclusively on alcohol, either, but was more general for alcohol, cocaine, herion, etc. Good article, though!

"No particular personality type is prone to becoming dependent. The culprit is excessive alcohol consumption itself, which changes the brain so that victims can no longer free themselves from the bottle. It is time to destigmatize alcoholism and to develop better methods of breaking dependency and preventing relapse."

The culprit is excessive alcohol consumption, and even a little bit of alcohol begins the process of short-circuiting the brain's reward system that is described in the article. That's why I think it's much smarter never to drink at all.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Pearce, I don't think alcohol should be illegal, I just think it's wiser not to drink. I am not trying to tell anyone what they should do. I'm only saying what I think is the wise choice. Of course it's up to each person to make their own choices.
 

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Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:

All Ill ask is,

"Does everyone agree that Alcohol's (as a beverage) potential for ill outweighs its potential for good?"

I won't argue how much, but I think that is true any way you slice it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by quidscribis:
..."Reasonable people know..." there's no point in continuing the discussion. You've already labelled everyone who disagrees with you as unreasonable. You've already discounted all opinions and beliefs that fall outside your chosen criteria. [/QB]

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What's wrong with that? If I say that reasonable people know that one shouldn't kill without a very good reason, would you still object and insist that there may be other views on the subject?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
You missed the point, Crocobar. I've said that, by stating "reasonable people know..." that the person stating that has automatically invalidated all opposing opinions, regardless of what those opinions are. There is no opportunity for discussion at that point.

It doesn't matter what the subject at hand is.

You've summarily dismissed as unreasonable anyone who may have a differing opinion.


ETA: As well, it's not an argument, really, as it contains no logic and no thought. Just a "you're an idiot if you think otherwise" kind of statement. It isolates and offends anyone who may think otherwise.

If you believe, for example, that there's no good reason that you can think of to kill someone other than defending yourself, why? What's the logic behind it? Because you say so?

[ January 27, 2007, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: quidscribis ]
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
In my life, the benefits of alcohol have outweighed the negatives, I'm not addicted, and can still appreciate the beauty of nature.

Of course, I have the opposite of an addictive personality. I'd get bored long before I became an alcoholic.
 

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Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 
Reasonable people know that alcohol is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

Especially cosmopolitans, long island iced teas, midori sours, vodka martinis, silver-dollar margaritas, mai tais, kashenkas, smith & berrys, white russians, mojitos, amaretto sours, and '57 chevies. They are, in conjunction with perennial favorites like woodchuck cider and red stripe, irrefutable evidence of the kind and benevolent God who lurks outside of view, wishing the best on His creation, saying "Have one on Me."

Imbibo hilaris ut Deus
 

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Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 
Reasonable people also know that people who think God does not want them to drink are unreasonable and are to be shunned.

Shun the nonbelievers.

Shunnnnnnn
 

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Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
 
Juxtapose

I visited Italy with my family this summer and developed a taste for wine that I hadn't had previously. On one occasion I even saw a kid who looked to be about twelve or thirteen buying a bottle of wine. My sister, who was studying abroad there, caught a bit of the conversation between him and the shopkeeper, and said he was buying it for his parents.

Well, I'm off on a tangental rant now, so bear with me.

I'm not sure how large the community was where this event occurred, but I suspect it really was a true sense of community that allowed this. A 12 year old could by wine for his parents because, the shopkeeper was very likely to see the kids parents at some point in the near future and could easily verify that the purchase was justified.

That can only happen if and when there is a true community. The Malling and Suburbaning of America has destroyed our sense of community. You hear the expression in the USA of 'suburban wasteland', and to some extent it is true. Suburbs are miles and miles of nothing but miles and miles; usually miles and miles of houses and strip malls. But there is no walkable downtown, no local neighborhood grocer who knows your name. It is an impersonal wasteland where everything is distant and cold.

I remember when I was a kid, we had the free run of the small town I lived in. We could go anywhere and do anything, completely unsupervised. Why? Because every person in town knew who we were and every person in town new who our parents were. Rather than being 'unsupervised', we were really supervised by hundreds of pseudo-parents. One step out of line, and we would hear about it when we got home.

I think this is part of the 'getting close to death' drinking mentality in the USA. The suburbs have isolated us from community, and the many eyes that go with it. Without those many eyes, there is nothing to establish perspective and set boundaries.

Consequently kids are off on their own in a world of strangers, making up their own rules as the go alone without any reasonable framework for those rules. It is this isolation, and living in a impersonal world of strangers that causes many of our problems today; school shootings, sex too young, violence in general, drug culture, etc....

Now the Internet steps into that 'world of strangers'. One of my subscriptions on YouTube is to a kid in Norway. How else could I ever have contact with anyone from my ancestral home country without the Internet. Still, though I have seen his face, we are interacting annoymously though a vast chasm of electrons.

I think to some extent the Internet is good, it makes our kids see the world instead of just their neighborhood. But in another sense, it isolates them because it encourages them to ignore their neighborhood in favor of a much large but much much more impersonal and potentially dangerous world.

Like I said, it was a rant.

Steve/BlueWizard
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
"The high drinking age just makes alcohol more appealing to kids because it makes it dangerous and interesting"

I'll start by saying that I have not tried alcohol. I don't know if I will. But from what other people my age (high schoolers)say, I think that the fact that drinking is forbidden does make it more appealing.

I think drinking alcohol is OK in moderation, but by the time you're 21 you don't have parents or more experienced people to tell you when to stop drinking or teach you anything about it.

The drinking age laws are enforced, but people get aroun them very easily. Kids talk in the halls about how many shots they can drink, but they don't let their parents know that they are drinking. If parents taught their kids about alcohol while they were still at home, I expect that there would be less dangerous experimentation with drinking alcohol.

But then, I haven't ever drunk alcohol so I don't know what all the fuss is about anyway.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
"The high drinking age just makes alcohol more appealing to kids because it makes it dangerous and interesting"

I'll start by saying that I have not tried alcohol. I don't know if I will. But from what other people my age (high schoolers)say, I think that the fact that drinking is forbidden does make it more appealing.

I think drinking alcohol is OK in moderation, but by the time you're 21 you don't have parents or more experienced people to tell you when to stop drinking or teach you anything about it.

The drinking age laws are enforced, but people get aroun them very easily. Kids talk in the halls about how many shots they can drink, but they don't let their parents know that they are drinking. If parents taught their kids about alcohol while they were still at home, I expect that there would be less dangerous experimentation with drinking alcohol.

But then, I haven't ever drunk alcohol so I don't know what all the fuss is about anyway.
 

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Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
I do not claim to be a reasonable person. Just throwing that out there.

While I don't often do the mixed drink thing, a simple gin & tonic is nice (I'll admit, though, that my original attraction to the drink stemmed from Hofstadter's "Djinn and Tonic" story in GEB). I'm also quite partial to a good nica libre. And sometimes, despite the strange looks, I'll get my sister's drink: tonic & soda.

I am a beer snob. Strong Belgian (or Belgian-style) ales are the way to go. Favorites: Ommegang Three Philosophers, Unibroue Trois Pistoles, Chimay Grand Reserve, and the impossibly malty, creamy, complex melange that is Rochefort 10. One day I will go to Belgium, eat too much moules frites, and visit every monastery with a brewery I can find.

Like Alcon, I have a shut-off valve beyond which further drinking is simply extremely unpleasant. It seems to be around 3 or 4 drinks, which suits me just fine. (Yes, I am a lightweight.) Much better to enjoy watching others overindulge than to do it myself.

[edit: to -> too. I guess there's a first time for everything.]
 

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Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
 
There are alcoholics at my high school, and the reason they have not gained the control over it that those in many other societies have is that there is no one to moderate what they do. If they ask for a moderator, all that happens is their alcohol is taken away, so they have no reason to ask adults for supervision.

simple.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
The measurable harms (injury, violence, risk-taking behavior, overdose, etc) of drinking alcohol are pretty clearly much more highly tied to binge drinking than dependence. And when people use the word "addiction," (including in scientific articles), they generally mean "dependence." Binge drinking would be "abuse," which is different from "dependence."

Mixing the terms makes for shaky analysis.
 

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Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
 
I would be very interested in seeing the stats on alcoholism and accidents/injuries/etc. caused by alcohol in various European countries verses Canada and the States.

As for myself, I've grown up enjoying a sip or two of my parents' drinks since I was 12 at the oldest. Along with that, though, I was taught very firmly to never, ever abuse alcohol or to get drunk. I was warned that when I do not have control of my mind, I am allowing Satan to open doors in my mind where he can build a stronghold in my life. The same thing applies to addictions to alcohol (and other things, of course). So I learned that way not to get drunk and to make sure that I could always refuse a drink, even if I wanted one. (For that reason, I make a point of not drinking anything with alcohol when I am angry or feeling depressed or the like.)
 

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Posted by Survivor (Member # 233) on :
 
How do you all feel about sniffing glue?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Eeeeeew. Glue gives you a headache while you're using it, why would you purposefully expose yourself to that?

I'd say about 1/4 to 1/3 of the kids in my high school drank. Most of us probably tasted a drink at some point, out of curiosity or peer pressure or other reasons, and didn't do it again, or at least didn't do it until we were older. The common opinion at my HS was that the kids who drank were the "party" kids and most of them wouldn't amount to much, not in HS anyway, and probably not in college, either. Drinking was kind of "low class", as it were. That said, I'm sure many of those who didn't have religious objections took it up later in life, but probably most of them are like my parents-- they don't drink every day, they enjoy good wine and beer occasionally and don't really drink much else except sometimes margaritas or similar drinks at parties or restaurants. (I'm in CA, margaritas are the common and popular mixed drink in my area, mainly because of the preponderance of Mexican restaurants.) Alcoholism runs in my family, strongly, on both sides. I recognized at an early age that I have an addictive personality and resolved never to drink or smoke. I did try a drink once and found it disgusting. Never did it again. Smoking and drugs, never done it. My husband never tried alcohol for religious reasons, and we had to have a discussion when I cooked with wine one day because he even avoided alcohol in things. Eventually we decided that we are okay with the occasional wine sauce on our meat at a restaurant or a friend's house, providing it's cooked, and I can keep a bottle of sherry for cooking as long as it's locked up and used sparingly (sherry being the one alcoholic thing I like to cook with), but other than that we will not have it in the house.
 

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Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
 
Oh man was my high school different from yours, KQ. Mine looked like a slightly tamer version of the one in Varsity Blues.

The jocks got away with anything they wanted. The cool kids partied at someone's house or out in the woods and consumed irresponsible amounts of alcohol. I can't remember how many folks we lost to DUIs; it wasn't like the person who moved to Louisiana, but it was a lot. And while none of our teachers were strippers, many of the girls were after graduation.

Personally, I drink for one of two reasons. It's either part of a dessert drink and super tasty, or I'm deliberately getting drunk. Preferably before having sex. There's just something about gettin drunk that makes me want to take my clothes off and have some fun.

I know a lot of folks are probably giving me some funny looks right now, but I stay uptight enough that it makes for a nice little vacation for me. Say what you want about moderation. I would argue that my getting happy drunk one or twice a year is a kind of moderation.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Survivor:
How do you all feel about sniffing glue?

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quote:

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Not that I'm implying that rich kids are worse partiers

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