Note: things in Italics are stuff I added for Hatrack and are not in the original emails.
quote:Me: Hi Aunt Barbara, I was wondering if you could help me with a little problem I have. Deb, the girl I lived with who is from Illinois, has invited me to stay for one week with her this winter but my mom is not too happy with the idea since I have never traveled. I remembered that when Deb invited me last summer, that I was unable to go, you offered to come with me on the plain so that my mom wouldn't be too worried. I was wondering if you'd still be interested in doing this. The cheapest flight would be from San Diego to Atlanta and then to Bloomington, Illinois.
Her response:
quote: My aunt: I won't be available until February.
quote: Really? That's unfortunate because this trip is for the week before Christmas. I told my mom that the cheapest flights bring me back on Christmas Eve and she said that that day was entirely for the family. Mi mom is still not very happy with the idea of me going on that trip and I told her that I thought it was unfair because I'd be home for Christmas, I'm paying for it and I've never traveled. Besides, I don't have too many vacations because of school. The most time we have is during winter when we get three weeks; which is why I wanted to take the trip the first week since there are holidays on the other two. Besides, Deb is willing to pay for half of it since she is the one who is inviting me. My brother says that I shouldn't spend my money on such frivolous things but what neither of them understand is that I feel like I need to make this trip. I finally have the opportunity to leave California, something I've never done, and I don't think it would be easy to just let it go, especially when I was unable to go last summer. In total, the trip would be a little less than $300 and I'd have the chance of going to Chicago, see snow for the first time and fly in an airplain, something I've always wanted to do. Besides, I'd see a dear friend of mine whom I lived with and I miss a lot. I can't deny that I'm a little scared of traveling so far but I'm unwilling to let an opportunity escape me because I'm afraid.
Her response:
quote: I don't think it's the appropriate time to make this trip. Like you said, you have never traveled by plane and you don't know anything that isn't San Diego or Calexico. As far as I know, you are unemployed and you have no money for emergencies. What's worse is that if something happens to you, your family wouldn't be able to help you. Your friend probably misses you a lot too and it may be easy for her to say, "Come over". I don't know your friend but the most probably thing is that she is a girl of a higher financial level than you and her parents might have prepared her for taking dealing with travel. Analize what I told you well, she is more prepared than you and it would be less risky for her to take planes since she's traveled more than you. This is not your case, if something happened to you you'd put your family in difficulties and worries and what's worse, you could have a bad experience. It's not the same thing to say, "I'm couragous and I'm going to take the risk," than it is to say, "I'm taking the risk, I'm irresponsible and I don't measure the risks." Don't think that I don't know what you feel, but let me tell you that the first time you are going to do anything, the most convenient thing is for you to do it with a group so that you gain experience. Airports can be a bad experience the first time, especially if you're on your own. I'm not a cowardly woman, that's why I'm more or less well to do, but I've never taken any unnecessary risks. I'd recommend that you wait until you have a comfy amount of money for emergencies and that you are in a more stable situation. A trip like that with $1,000 in the bank is perfectly responsible. Take care.
Here's what I wrote back:
quote: The truth is that my friend is not of a better economical position than me and she also grew up in an atmosphere similar to mine where her parents were divorced. Even if I don't have a job, I get somewhere around $1,000 every month because of my financial aid. It's not a lot, but I have access to $750 at the moment, (until January when I get my next check). I gave my mom $1,300 and I've also taken out a credit card which I am using to finance my computer. The truth is that Deb had offered to pay for all of my ticket, but I told her she didn't need to since I'd feel like I'm taking advantage of her. (her mom doesn't give her money, she has a full-time job) I'm trying to measure all the risks involved and I'm trying to find out as much as I can about traveling because I want this to be a good thing. Of course I'm afraid of traveling along, and very. That's why I'm trying really hard to learn all there is to know so that I can go in peace by resolving any question and preparing myself well before I do anything. I'll agree with you that doing this with a group would be wiser but I don't know who'd be willing to go with me. I went to many fieldtrips to far away places when I was growing up on part of the school, and I always went on my own. I understand that it's not the same thing to travel with your school and on bus than traveling on your own and by plane, but I think I have some valid experience. The other reason why I want to go is because I feel like I deserve it since this year has been really stressful ( remember my rocky-ride with a transgender? ) for me and this would be a sabatic of sorts. A way to get away from it all for a short time. I understand that you're worried and I am grateful that you understand how I feel, but the truth is that I don't know what to do. I don't feel that this is a frivolous thing at all. What I don't understand is if I really need to wait to go on a group since those situations don't happen too often.
This is what she replied and this is why I'm hurt.
quote: Well if you have the money, why don't you help your mother just like she helps you and contribute to the debt that she has with me? That would make me think that I don't have to worry about my sister because she has a big daughter that takes care of her. Your mom got into debt to help both of you ( my brother and I ). If people see that things are going well for your mother, it's obvious that they won't find a reason for you to not help her with your problems. This year was even more stressful for your mother thanks to you, so don't you think that she needs a break too? And don't talk to me about your trip anymore, talk to me about more interesting things like when you're going to get a job, or when you're going to move to a bigger apartment or if you're going to pay the debts that your family has or something really fenomenal. Have you bought my Christmas present yet? Remember that I was very good to you this year and it's reasonable that I await my compensation. Remember that I am a woman of business and I never do anything without expecting something in return. That's why I'm happy things are going good for you. Take care sweetie.
Now here's some info that as far as I'm concerned, is true. My mother got into debt with her because she payed many of the fines that my brother had because he was really irresponsible with his car. I had NOTHING to do with it. Second, I've already given my mom enough money to pay off the majority of her debts. And lastly, my aunt should get diddly-squat from my mother after she said that she was not going to pay the lean on the car. (My aunt needed some money and my mother helped her by putting a lean on her car. My aunt had agreed to pay it back even when my mother owed her money because of reasons mentioned above. The thing is that about a month ago, she utterly refused to keep said agreement and that messed up our monetary balance.) The point that my aunt seems to miss is that my mother doesn't owe anything because of me, everything I have I payed for myself. I'm on a standalone basis for my student loans and I get money from my financial aid to cover living expenses. I don't see why I need to be smothered into that affair and I don't see why I have to pay any more than what I already have. My aunt also thinks less of me because I don't have a job (remember I quit Target back in March?). The reason that I quit was because I needed to pay more attention to my art projects which are VERY time consuming. I hardly have enough time even when I don't have a job.
I'll write more on this affair tomorrow, for now I must drink more coffee and finish up some homework in time to see the sun rise.
[ December 06, 2006, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Altáriël of Dorthonion ]
Posted by Tyler (Member # 9930) on :
unfortunate.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
O.o
That last e-mail from your aunt is one of the most shocking and rude I've ever read (and I've got a screwy person or two in my family). If you're honest about the details of your loan, you've already discharged your responsibilities and more (you didn't mention the total amount of the loan - and please don't, online). And on top of that she treats Christmas presents as transactions and flat out tells you that she doesn't care about you.
I can understand the line "Remember that I am a woman of business and I never do anything without expecting something in return." But this has nothing to do with you anymore, and I would go as far as saying that it's morally incorrect for her to hold you responsible for the remainder of the loan. Your mother is still working to repay it, is she not? In any case it shouldn't tie you down.
And what does she mean by "This year was even more stressful for your mother thanks to you, so don't you think that she needs a break too?" Didn't you say that you've been self supporting with your financial aid?
A $300 trip with $750 security money sounds reasonable to me. Is travel insurance an issue when you're only going interstate? If not, then I don't think you have anything to worry about. Frankly, if students refrained from travelling without an emergency account over 3 times as large as their predicted budget, hardly any would be out seeing the world.
If I were you, taking into consideration your last post, I would take the trip. Please don't let that e-mail or nervousness about travel keep you from flying to meet your friend. Flying is just like sitting in a small movie theatre for a long time, and security is nothing to worry about on domestic.
My advice, for what it's worth: - Take this trip - Move out within the year, preferably ASAP
I think you will see things a little differently too, after leaving California for the first time.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
And to answer your question in the thread title, I think your aunt must have read Ayn Rand and loved it, but totally missed the point.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Oh I am taking this trip, Euripides, I sure am. It has been postponed until March though since there won't be any holidays to get in the way and my mom even mentioned it would be best for me. Heck, even Deb agrees with me on that one.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I vote take the trip. Sure plane trips are alittle scary the first time, but you'll see that they're no big deal.
I could say that you should get together some stuff for you mom. If she's not keen on the idea of the trip based on your lack of travel experience, show her you're making the effort to be as prepared as possible. Make sure you are guaranteed that your friend can pick you up from the airport. Get a list of addresses and the contact numbers of anyone who will hand them over. I've found that with my parents, its best to approach them with proof that I've researched the worst case scenarios and have plans for coping. I throw more information at them than they could possibly ask for.
At the end of the day though, you have the finances and the opportunity to take the trip. As long as you make the most effort to compromise (being home for Christmas Eve and the like) then that's the best you can do. If you're self-sufficient for the most part, your mom shouldn't be able to forbid you from going. And if she does, its just a choice you'll have to make whether the trip means enough to you to go against her wishes.
You've got the cut the ties at some point. I went through the same stuff with my parents just a few months ago.
And ignore your aunt and get her nothing for Christmas unless its coal. You aren't responsible for their drama and should only be involved when you volunteer, not when your aunt demands it.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
That's good to hear. Don't let that e-mail bother you by the way. A true woman of business knows when she is in debt and walks away without any burden of guilt when she is not. And you are not in debt.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Shanna's is good advice. About the research and the coal.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
She did get me my external hard drive back in May, which I'll admit was pretty expensive for a gift ($250), but are you really supposed to EXPECT something in return and downright express it? Of course I was thinking of getting her something for Christmas but her email really hurt me. I was pondering the ways that I could respond to this and my favorite idea so far is giving her a christmas card with $250 in it saying "Christmas is not a transaction, but if you really want to go there, then here you go."
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Well, doing that will not put you on better terms with her. And if you don't feel like nurturing a relationship with her anyway (I wouldn't), then you might as well save yourself $250 and send her nothing. That's the majority of your travel budget, after all.
Also, gifts should not be loans in disguise. They should be given because it pleases the giver to do so, and for no other reason.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I'd like to, but I hesitate in cutting ties with her because she has done a lot for me and my mom. That's why I couldn't believe her behaviour these past few months.
Edit: I don't know how to reply to this email either. I'd like to tell give her a piece of my mind but I don't want things to get worse between us.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
That's fair enough. In that case, the $250 in a card might not be such a good idea. But I don't know your aunt. Maybe she'll grin and say 'so this girl has guts'?
Have you responded to the e-mail yet? If she really is a woman of business and you tell her how you are self supporting and how much you have given your mother already, she should understand.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Good night for now. Wishing you the best.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Alt, based on her final email your aunt doesn't sound like she's a safe person for you to share a lot of details of your life with. Given that, but also given that you're not wanting to burn any bridges due to her past kindnesses to your mother, I would probably choose not to engage her at all on any of her points. I'd say something like:
quote:Dear X,
Thank you for your email. It certainly gave me a lot to think about.
and leave it at that.
I'd also resist any urge you might have to ask for a receipt when you give her her Christmas present. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
AoD, I don't agree at all with everything your aunt has written, but she does read as someone who has reached the limits of her patience. She doesn't come off (to me) as mean or irrational, just very very frustrated.***
Edited to add: and I think Noemon's suggestion has great merit. Be short, polite, and non-involved.
***Edited again to add: I would guess that her frustration has a lot to do with things that are only tangentially related to you (e.g., your family) or not related to you at all (her work, her own life). That doesn't excuse her inappropriateness, of course, but it may be that the explanation is something that you will never be fully privy to.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
CT, I was thinking the same thing until I read her last email. Do you really think that
quote:Have you bought my Christmas present yet? Remember that I was very good to you this year and it's reasonable that I await my compensation. Remember that I am a woman of business and I never do anything without expecting something in return. That's why I'm happy things are going good for you.
doesn't sound pretty toxic?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I had the same point of startlement as you. It is indeed both condescending and inappropriate. It sounds like she is teaching a small child how to behave politely, not talking to a young adult -- she is saying things that one would say explicitly to a very very young person with no experience (i.e., "training" a little girl how to behave at gift-giving times, rather than interacting with her as if she already knew how). That, coupled with the rest of the letter, is something "I don't agree with at all" but does suggest (to me) that she is viewing AoD as a small child, or perhaps is using this tone of voice as an object lesson to demonstrate her assessment of AoD [as such] to her. Rude? Yes. Smacks of frustration? Yes (to me).
I don't think it would be good for AoD to maintain a relationship with her. I do think it would be good for AoD to make different decisions about how she spends her time, money, and other resources, but of course 1) I am not her, and I don't know the full story, and 2) at her age and in a similar situation, I made dramatically different decisions that shaped the rest of my life. Being shaped by those decisions means I probably view them in a distinct light, and I lack perspective on them.
However, I can see where her aunt may be coming from, even if I think she went overboard in expressing it. I sure wouldn't want anything more to do with her (the aunt) myself.
Edited to add: I directed this and my initial reply in response to the title of this thread, "What the heck is wrong with my aunt? (About my trip to Illinois)." That is to say, I'm not trying to be an apologist for AoD's aunt, but trying to make sense of why she would behave this way. [And I don't mean this to minimize AoD's pain or hurt at the emails. I myself cannot bear the transactional nature of gift-giving, and I'd much much rather never get any gifts or help at all for this very reason. Knowing that someone else views you as an exchange item -- a piece of transactional machinery -- is soul-deadening.]
Posted by libertygirl (Member # 8761) on :
Wow. Thats really horrible some of the things your aunt said to you. If it were my aunt I would try to wean myself completley away from dependcy on her for anything. She obviousley has some issues. As for the Christmas present I kind of liked the 250$ idea but it might be offensive... Tough situation. I feel for you.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I can definitely see your point, CT, and actually I agree with you on pretty much every point in your most recent post (there's a surprise, eh?).
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I've got to say that I don't get the rationale for her flying with you in the first place. You are not a child--I'm confident that you can handle the experience on your own and your mother should be a bit more realistic about handling her fears (unless she's not being honest about why she doesn't want you to go--i.e., thinks the same things your aunt said, you should get a job first, etc.). And your aunt certainly shouldn't be expected to do this at her own expense.
However, she was rude, especially about that Christmas gift thing -- puh-leez. I liked the polite "thank you for your email" response suggestion.
Alt, I still can't help thinking of your earlier thread about the abusive way your brother is treating you. I can understand wanting to take a break from that. And I second what everyone else said about getting out of that situation. I wonder if you could actually take your friend up on her offer to pay your whole way on this trip? That way you could be getting a break while still saving to find a better situation.
And take it from me--the world doesn't end if you take a semester or a year off school to work and better your own situation before returning. Even if you can't get back into the same school/program, I promise you there are options. I know you didn't ask my opinion on this, but I'd say that getting out of your family's household should be your top priority right now. That's what I'd do in your shoes. Preserving your own mental and emotional health is paramount.
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
Up front, I'll say that the aunt says some really unfortunate things in the emails... except for her first one. Her first one simply says "I can't do it until February."
So here's where I would be coming from at that point, as the person having the favor requested of them: I would be frustrated right away that my polite no was not taken as the answer. Wheedling and attempts at persuasion would REALLY bother me.
All families are different. Perhaps yours has a lot more give and take in this kind of thing. But for me, it would be a big deal.
This is in no way to suggest that the things she says later are appropriate. I'm bringing my own baggage to the table, as we all can do. So no wheedling with me, do you hear??
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I can certainly see where you're coming from, Sharpie. But your point would be legit if I had been badgering her to go with me the entire time, and that is not the case. After she said that she wouldn't be able to go with me until February, I seeked for advice on going alone. Instead of giving me said advice, she mentioned that I should pay my mother's debt instead. Now I've already mentioned that I don't feel responsible for said debt because I didn't cause it, I've already contributed, and I shouldn't have to pay someone else's bills. That debt was clearly something between my brother and my aunt and neither my mother nor I should be involved.
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
It seems that she's just trying to hold you back. Maybe she had a bitter experience when she was beginning to go out on her own. It probably has nothing to do with you.
Good luck on this, going out into the world for the first time is amazing, especially when you've been waiting for it your whole life. Please don't be worried about flying or about airports, it's all very easy, even though it looks intimidating.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I just showed my mom the email and she is just as offended as I am. I told her that I was going to send my aunt the short reply that was mentioned somewhere in here, but she said that I didn't need to reply at all. Besides, she also said that replying with another message that was basically another insult would've lowered me to her standing. Just because she's got an education doesn't mean that she's more civilized.
EDIT: My mother is ok with me going on March, btw. Her biggest concern was that my trip would take up any time from the holidays.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I'm glad you and your mom were able to come to a solution. Its good you can compromise and be home for the holidays like she wants. Enjoy your trip in March! Flying in non-snowing weather is probably better too. haha.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Shanna, have you ever been to Chicago? March is pretty much prime time.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Oops! Forgot! I've been a southern girl my whole life. I forget not everyone is breaking out the tanktops in March.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Yay! I get to see snow!!
I was worried I wouldn't! That was only real concern, now that I know that there will be, there's nothing about this trip that I can't wait for!
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
I think I'd get a picture frame from the dollar store, and put her email in it, then wrap it in gift wrap and send it to her. Tell her you think it's priceless and you're indebted to her for life. Then don't bother ever discussing anything important with her again.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
In march it's not good fun snow. It's melty and nasty and brown, with maybe an inch.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dead_Horse: I think I'd get a picture frame from the dollar store, and put her email in it, then wrap it in gift wrap and send it to her. Tell her you think it's priceless and you're indebted to her for life. Then don't bother ever discussing anything important with her again.
I'm a big fan of this and all other sarcastic, scathing ideas.
Posted by Taiin (Member # 9950) on :
As am I.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I would just send her a card that said " Thinking of you this Christmas".
You don't have to mention what you thought of her, after all, just that you were thinking of her.
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
Just wanted to weigh in on flying - I swear, it's not that scary. I've been doing it since I was an infant, and on my own since I was like 12 or something, so I'm biased, but I'm telling you, the Greyhound bus station is SO MUCH SCARIER.
Airports are clean, well-lit, have excellent signage, everyone in them has to clear security and has the money to fly. There are nice uniformed people all over the place who are happy to help you. Airports have chocolate shops and bookstores, and overpriced but generally quite edible food. There are friendly men to carry your bags if you're feeling wimpy (tip a dollar per bag). Ahh, airports . . .
There are cheerful recorded voices, there are people arriving from exotic locales and people traveling to exotic locales . . . now, in all honesty, it does sound like you may be flying through LAX and O'Hare which are "special" airports (they were designed by crazy people). I advise you to simply ask uniformed people for help if you should get turned around or confused. I only get into real trouble when I don't ask and try to bluster through on my own.
You will be fine!
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I've saved my itenarary for my flight already, I'm still flying from San Diego to Atlanta and then to Bloomington, I think.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
AoD, I too can't help but think of the abuse you described from your family, and sort of feel as though there's not much to say to your aunt after an email like that. Noemon's idea is great! I totally would never buy her a present again. I'd write cards instead. The idea of ..... <hushes>.
It's no big deal at all to fly. Like anything, it can seem a bit daunting at first, but there are people everywhere who are more than glad to help you out, answer your questions, etc. It will be a fun adventure for you, and there is no reason at all for your aunt's dire misgivings about traveling. I flew somewhere in the Americas every few weeks for about 4 years with absolutely no mishaps worse than having to stay overnight unplanned in Chicago once because of a storm.
In every airport in the U.S., there are maps of the airport posted prominantly, showing the gates and how to get there. When you arrive at Atlanta airport, and get off the plane, go the direction everyone else goes, until you see a bank of monitors and find what gate your connecting flight leaves from. The flights are grouped into Arrivals and Departures. Under the Departures, they will be listed alphabetically by the destination city. When you find the gate (usually something like B27 - a letter and some numbers), you follow the signs to concourse B, gate 27. Oftentimes if it is a different concourse, you will have to take the train, or possibly the slidewalks. The signs make it very obvious which way you have to go at each point. The slidewalks are fun to ride on, too, and much faster than just walking.
Grab something to eat in Atlanta, if you can, because they will feed you little or nothing on the plane, most likely. But first get to your destination gate, and make sure you have enough time to spare.
I'm very forgetful, absent-minded, and I have absolutely no sense of direction, and I found it interesting and fun to fly. I am an appreciative fan of airport art, and love watching all the people. I'm sure you will enjoy it too. Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Thanks Tatiana! I actually pride myself in my sense of direction which is the main reason that I feel confident about this trip. It's hard for me to get lost. Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I'm not sure how old you are, but for an adult, flying is really a piece of cake. If you're polite to the airport staff, they're almost always happy to help you find your way and let you know what's going on.
As for your aunt, I'd be tempted to tell her that her present is a donation in her name to a charity to pay your mother's debt to her Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I'm 19. I actually like your idea, but I'm not sure how she would react to it. It's better if I just give her some chocolates with some lax mixed in. I've always wanted to do that anyway. Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Eh, poisoning people generally isn't cool. You never know what health conditions you might exacerbate.
Flying is pretty easy and safe. I'm surprised that your aunt is so concerned for your safety while traveling. It's honestly no big deal at all, particularly if you have someone dropping you off at one end and picking you up at the other.
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