This is topic Parents try to runaway with bride? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/07/kidnapped.bride.ap/index.html

Happened in Utah and yet I had to read it on CNN.

HONOR YOUR PARENTS DAMN IT! WE OWN YOU!!!

I found it quite ironic that the fathers name was Lemuel. I mean seriously who in Utah names their children Lemuel? Is there a Laman out there too?

For non Mormons who wish to understand:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuel
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I'm so happy I have the parents I do... Red as their neck may be, they never pulled this kind of stunt, even though I gave them plenty of reason to.
 
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
 
Things like that just seem so bizarre to me. Did they really think they'd stop the wedding?

And, truly, if Lemuel came from an LDS family, the problems obviously go back further than just this weird couple. Who would name their kid that?
 
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
quote:

Myers said her parents picked her up August 4, the day before she was to be married at the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City, for what she thought was to be a quick shopping trip to get special religious clothing.

Instead, they drove south and east toward Colorado, Myers said.

"They told me Perry was evil and wicked and abusive," Myers said, referring to her fiance, now her husband.

They stopped at a gas station in Salina, 175 miles west of the Colorado line, where Myers used the bathroom.

When she emerged, her parents grabbed her by the wrists and hair, claiming she wasn't honoring her father and mother, Myers testified.

"I told them, 'I'm not going back in the van,"' Myers said. "They grabbed my wrists and put me back against the wall and were shouting all these doctrines at me. They told me, 'You're not worthy, you're wicked."'

[Smile]
 
Posted by Kelly (Member # 9576) on :
 
Wasn't this posted on another thread some time ago?
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
The article is dated 12/07/2006 so I doubt its the same incident if at all.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
She testified this week. The incident happened in August, and there was a thread about it.
 
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
 
I dunno BB, it might be. This article is referring to her recent testimony at the trial, after all.

--j_k
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk:
I dunno BB, it might be. This article is referring to her recent testimony at the trial, after all.

--j_k

OH! I see, no that seems to be the case seeing as how she is now expecting a baby in May. Its doubtful she would be getting married in the temple if she was pregnant. Though not impossible I suppose.
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Actually, I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. I believe that if you have committed a sexual sin, you have to wait a year before you can be considered worthy to go to the temple.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
The article I remember being posted here was about the parents who kidnapped their daughter to make her have an abortion, since they didn't like her boyfriend.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ElJay:
The article I remember being posted here was about the parents who kidnapped their daughter to make her have an abortion, since they didn't like her boyfriend.

Thats the only other thread I could recall.

Jon: It would be purely up to their stake president, unless he asked for guidance from a higher up general authority. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the stake president would feel inspired to have them wait a very short amount of time. Not waiting at all would not be impossible IMO.
 
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
At my old church a girl was excommunicated because she married a boy against her parents' wishes. Not because the church disapproved of the boy, mind you, but because she disobeyed her parents. Her parents disapproved of him because he was "too effeminate". He was doctrinally sound, came from a good family, was a good guy, was obviously in love with their daughter, but he was too effeminate. They refused to talk to her until she apologized, she refused to apologize, and so the church excommunicated her for not honoring her mother and father.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
. . . and I am suddenly glad both that my parents are extremely reasonable people, and that Jewish tradition specifically excludes choice of mate (among other things) from the commandment to honor your parents.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
. . . and I am suddenly glad both that my parents are extremely reasonable people, and that Jewish tradition specifically excludes choice of mate (among other things) from the commandment to honor your parents.

Rivka I was always fascinated with the scene in, "Fiddler On The Roof." When the youngest daughter marries a Christian. Her parents object obviously and the entire community holds a funeral service for the girl as she is basically "dead" to them. Later in the movie there is a scene where the father via his oldest daughter conveys the message, "God be with you," to this same daughter.

I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.
 
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
Now I'm gonna have "Tradition" in my head all night.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.

Um, which part do you mean when you say "this attitude"?

While most Orthodox Jews do not treat an intermarried child as dead (for a mix of reasons political and otherwise), neither do they treat them as married. Or attend such a wedding.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Megan:
Now I'm gonna have "Tradition" in my head all night.

And thanks for sharing. >_<
 
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
Actually, I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. I believe that if you have committed a sexual sin, you have to wait a year before you can be considered worthy to go to the temple.

Well, if the woman got a divorce from a previous husband (who fathered the child) and met, fell in love, got engaged, and married someone else within 9 months it would be perfectly allowable [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
My pleasure! [Wink]
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.

Um, which part do you mean when you say "this attitude"?

While most Orthodox Jews do not treat an intermarried child as dead (for a mix of reasons political and otherwise), neither do they treat them as married. Or attend such a wedding.

Oh I meant holding the funeral service in the wake of such a marriage. Could that be localized to that particular community? Just old fashioned? Or could you conceive of Orthodox Jews still doing this within certain localities?

Honestly not trying to be critical, I just saw this as a unique response to a moderately common occurence.

edit: Megan: I typically get, "If I was a rich man." In my head when I think about FOTR (not Fellowship of the...) In fact I have written a very light happy piano song that gleaned its inspiration from the first few bars of that song.

[Wink]
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Oh I meant holding the funeral service in the wake of such a marriage. Could that be localized to that particular community? Just old fashioned?

Or maybe just a literary device the author made up to dramatically show how strongly the parents disapproved? Remember, it's a musical, not a documentary.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Oh I meant holding the funeral service in the wake of such a marriage. Could that be localized to that particular community? Just old fashioned? Or could you conceive of Orthodox Jews still doing this within certain localities?
It is only fairly recently that is has become UNcommon for parents to tear kriyah and sit shivah upon a child's intermarriage.

quote:
Honestly not trying to be critical, I just saw this as a unique response to a moderately common occurrence.
God FORBID it should be "moderately common"! The customs have changed because they were ineffective, not because intermarriage has become acceptable!
 
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Yeah. Intermarriage. Crazy.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
rivka: sorry sorry! I meant "moderately common" in regards to folks marrying outside their faith, not Jews in particular.

Without looking can I assume that "tear kriyah and sit shivah" is "to rend ones clothes and to sit upon ashes?" Do they still sprinkle them upon their heads or did that typically stop with everything else?

edit: ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?
 
Posted by crescentsss (Member # 9494) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
. . . and I am suddenly glad both that my parents are extremely reasonable people, and that Jewish tradition specifically excludes choice of mate (among other things) from the commandment to honor your parents.

Rivka I was always fascinated with the scene in, "Fiddler On The Roof." When the youngest daughter marries a Christian. Her parents object obviously and the entire community holds a funeral service for the girl as she is basically "dead" to them. Later in the movie there is a scene where the father via his oldest daughter conveys the message, "God be with you," to this same daughter.

I wondered where this attitude might still be found amongst Jews if at all.

The book is different from the play. In the book, the daughter disappears and is never heard from again. There is no pseudo-reconciliation between father and daughter.
 
Posted by crescentsss (Member # 9494) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:

Honestly not trying to be critical, I just saw this as a unique response to a moderately common occurence.


The response was not unique, and the occurence was not moderately common.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
rivka: sorry sorry! I meant "moderately common" in regards to folks marrying outside their faith, not Jews in particular.
Ok. I apologize; this is a very touchy subject for me.

quote:
Without looking can I assume that "tear kriyah and sit shivah" is "to rend ones clothes and to sit upon ashes?"
No ashes. Shivah (lit. seven) refers to the week of mourning.

I recommend reading the link; like most of jewfaq.com, it is an excellent overview of complex topics.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
BB: It's not a terribly recent musical, and there've been plenty of misrepresentations of various groups in various media. I was just pointing out that that was a possibility that you didn't list, rivka's post obviously shows otherwise. [Smile]
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boris:
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
Actually, I'm pretty sure that would be impossible. I believe that if you have committed a sexual sin, you have to wait a year before you can be considered worthy to go to the temple.

Well, if the woman got a divorce from a previous husband (who fathered the child) and met, fell in love, got engaged, and married someone else within 9 months it would be perfectly allowable [Big Grin]
If you are divorced you must receive special permission from the quorum of the 12 (or possibly 1st Presidency) before you can be sealed in the temple. That generally takes months so it seems highly unlikely that the whole process could happen that fast.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
rivka: sorry sorry! I meant "moderately common" in regards to folks marrying outside their faith, not Jews in particular.
Ok. I apologize; this is a very touchy subject for me.

quote:
Without looking can I assume that "tear kriyah and sit shivah" is "to rend ones clothes and to sit upon ashes?"
No ashes. Shivah (lit. seven) refers to the week of mourning.

I recommend reading the link; like most of jewfaq.com, it is an excellent overview of complex topics.

Ok per your request I read the link and surprise you were right. I did learn something [Big Grin]

What happened to the sackcloth and ashes? Just fell out of use?
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?

<-- not ElJay [Wink]

The musical is quite inaccurate on a number of points. I don't recall exactly how this one in particular was presented, so I can't speak to its accuracy.
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?

<-- not ElJay [Wink]

The musical is quite inaccurate on a number of points. I don't recall exactly how this one in particular was presented, so I can't speak to its accuracy.

[Frown] You just killed one of my more fond memories by appealing to my academic side.

But in all honesty can you specify anything off the top of your head?
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
You sure about that? We could start our own Tom-kat-AJ-whoever quorum, but cooler.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I love the musical. I don't expect it to be accurate.

I also don't expect Pirates of Penzance (sp) to be an accurate portrayal of a life of piracy.
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ElJay:
The article I remember being posted here was about the parents who kidnapped their daughter to make her have an abortion, since they didn't like her boyfriend.

I know I read about this story months ago but I can't verify that it was here at Hatrack.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
What happened to the sackcloth and ashes? Just fell out of use?

I think those are for public mourning (for community-wide tragedies), not private.
 
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Religion gives me a headache.

But now I have my husband singing his version of "If I were a rich man" going through my head. Including the alternate lyrics he composed upon our viewing of The Mothman Prophecies.

"If I were a mothman..."

>_<
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Olivet: Your hubby sounds cool
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Megan:
Now I'm gonna have "Tradition" in my head all night.

And thanks for sharing. >_<
I can fix that for you!
 
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
He is incredibly cool. Especially when he sings. I should share some of the alternate lyrics he came up with to Barney songs when the kids were little. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
But in all honesty can you specify anything off the top of your head?
Ask me next week, when I'm not suffering from fuzzy-cold-brain.

quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
You sure about that? We could start our own Tom-kat-AJ-whoever quorum, but cooler.

Ooooh. That has possibilities!
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
*LAUGH*
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Olivet: I'm anxious to hear!
 
Posted by crescentsss (Member # 9494) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
ElJay: Perhaps, but is it likely that the musical would intentionally be dishonest about Judaism?

<-- not ElJay [Wink]

The musical is quite inaccurate on a number of points. I don't recall exactly how this one in particular was presented, so I can't speak to its accuracy.

[Frown] You just killed one of my more fond memories by appealing to my academic side.

But in all honesty can you specify anything off the top of your head?

The musical is dishonest to Shalom Aleichem's book, which is much more sordid than the play. As I said above the daughter who marries the gentile disappears from the novel. There's also a fourth daughter in the book who falls in love with a gentile, but he doesn't love her. She jumps into a river and kills herself. The book is much less warm and fuzzy than the play, and therefore more true to life, especially Jewish life in 19th century Russia.
 
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Megan:
Now I'm gonna have "Tradition" in my head all night.

And thanks for sharing. >_<
I can fix that for you!
*Brandishes fist at Tante* Curse you!

I resisted temptation to start singing Fiddler, but when I clicked on the link, I fell into your evil trap!
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by crescentsss:
The musical is dishonest to Shalom Aleichem's book, which is much more sordid than the play.

That's not dishonesty; that's poetic license.




ElJay, [Evil]
 
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
[
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Megan:
Now I'm gonna have "Tradition" in my head all night.

And thanks for sharing. >_<
I can fix that for you!
And all along I'd assumed she'd posted the same link she posted in the Ketchup Princess thread.

(This post has caused me more trouble. I've tried to post it three times, twice it simply disappeared and then it showed up with the wrong quote attached. I think Tante has cast some sort of curse on me).
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Now we are three?
 


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