Looking back on some old, rather scary, topics of a political nature (mostly involving the Middle East and/or judicial killings), I think I have found a motto for Hatrack Conservatives, with apologies to Shakespeare:
quote:I am the scourge of God sent to punish the people of God for their sins
Of, course, we Liberals also have a motto, but it is not nearly as cool sounding:
quote:Men are born and remain free and equal in rights. Social distinctions can be founded only on the common utility. The goal of any political association is the conservation of the natural and imprescriptible rights of man. These rights are liberty, property, safety and resistance against oppression.
The Marquis de La Fayette just didn't have Shakespeare's gift, shame really.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Pel,
Do you really believe that the conservatives on this board are all arriving at that stance based on religious convictions? I think you'd be wrong to believe that.
If you think that the conservatives here (as a group) believe that people who don't think as they do deserve to punished, I think you're wrong again.
You also seem to imply that Conservatives here, as a group, are not interested in rights and freedoms. That seems to be a singularly mistaken impression.
Now, finally, you try to say that liberals here all hold to a unified view of what it means to be free and have equal rights. I'd venture to say that's also incorrect.
In brief, there's not a single correct utterance in your post, near as I can detect.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
What exactly do you know about Lafayette? Never mind, its a matter of historical perspective which I won't get into here. Regardless, your post is smug and condescending and annoying. Perhaps state the purpose of this thread (other than inciting flaming)?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Pel, shut up.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
quote:Do you really believe that the conservatives on this board are all arriving at that stance based on religious conviction
Everyone's thoughts are based on religion, some people just have different religions. Nietzsche just replaced God with the übermensch.
quote: You also seem to imply that Conservatives here, as a group, are not interested in rights and freedoms
Conservatives believe in certain rights to be sure, mostly economic rights, but Conservatism is by its very nature less inclined to liberty than Liberalism. Hence their names.
quote: You try to say that liberals here all hold to a unified view of what it means to be free and have equal rights
To a very real extent, they do. Almost all Liberals would cite Voltaire, Locke, Mill and others as their political role models. Economically it is much more complex based on the disagreement over Keynsianism that is a major divide in Liberalism.
There are, of course, not very many Liberals around compared to Conservatives. The Democratic and Republican parties of the U.S. both take mostly Conservative stances (the Republicans more so, but the Democrats have a strong Conservative element, particularly in the so called "rust belt.") Only in Canada has a Liberal party won an election in recent memory. Of course, the ruling Spanish Socialists have adopted many Liberal ideas.
Conservative ideology is based on power, generally marketed as “law and order,” the traditional rallying cry of Conservative parties. Liberals don’t offer such marketable sentiments, and generally appeal primarily or exclusively to the university-educate middle classes. The bigger the Middle-class and the higher level of education, the more likely a Liberal government is to succeed.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Pel,
You speak in generalities about political and philosophical movements...
but you insulted people here and failed to take into account their actual viewpoints.
Do you understand how rude you are being?
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
As far as I know, Liberalism and Conservatism are political and philosophical movements.
"you insulted people here"
I have begun to take Marcus Aurelius's advice in Meditations seriously
quote: Empty pomp; stage plays; flocks of sheep and herds of cows; mock battles; a bone flung to lap-dogs; a breadcrumb tossed into a fishpond; the ceaseless toil of ants bearing their burdens; the flight of frightened mice; puppets dancing on their strings — such is life. Your job is to take pleasure amidst it all with a mild manner and without condescension. Bear in mind that the measure of a man is the worth of the things he cares about.
I admit to being rude, but I have posted this after over a year of trying to discuss politics and philosophy with Conservatives, whom I have found invariably fall into cyncicism and generally express a frightening desire for violence.
Most of these people are otherwise normal and good, but they cannot discuss politics without garbing either the Bible or Ayn Rand and screaming about "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" or some similar ideal. I have learnt that Conservatism is debasing to humanity and that it induces a degree of hatred which is fearsome to behold.
Liberals love humanity, so do Leftists in all their misguided idealism.
I had never before seen the degrees of racism and other hatred which I encountered when I started discussing politics with Conservatives.
I refuse to believe that strength is the highest ideal, and thus I can never be a Conservative. I believe in human goodness, thus I can never be a Conservative. I believe in the primacy of the individual over the state, thus I can never be a Conservative. I believe in the rights of man as set down during the Enlightenment by thinkers such as Voltaire, thus I remain a Liberal.
May God have mercy on humanity for it has had none on itself.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Every time I have discussed politics with a Conservative, I have had the impression that what they truly were saying was:
"Were that I had a machine gun to kill the unworthy Arabs/Mexicans/homosexuals/poor people/Liberals."
As many of you know, I love Les Misérables, both the musical and the novel. Javert has always been the archetypal Conservative in my eye.
I know what is said about me and those who hold similar ideals and think similar thoughts, that we are but madmen tilting at windmills.
I say better a madman with his spear aimed at a windmill than a sane man with his gun aimed at a human heart.
Here I stand, I can do no other.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
Pel, I have to agree with the others on this board. I fail to see what it is you wish to discuss. It's been rather clear to me over my time here that the conservatives on this forum are not quite so archetypal as Javert and to lump any subscriber of a political ideology into such a archetype is a gross disservice to them.
Now, I've had frustrating conversations with conservatives too, but the conservatives on this site have always seemed open to discussion. So I don't understand what you might hope to achieve other than provoke emotional responses out of people. Sam.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Every time I have discussed politics with a Conservative, I have had the impression that what they truly were saying was:
"Were that I had a machine gun to kill the unworthy Arabs/Mexicans/homosexuals/poor people/Liberals."
Bullshit.
I know quite a few conservatives on this board and I know this is not even an impression they give. I know that you have had discourse with these same people and I know that you are not stupid enough to have gleaned this "impression" from them either. In short, you are lying.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius:
I know what is said about me and those who hold similar ideals and think similar thoughts, that we are but madmen tilting at windmills.
Actually people mostly just say you're annoying and rude. It has nothing to do with your beliefs, and everything to do with how you present them.
Posted by General Sax (Member # 9694) on :
Being wrong is its own punishment, letting people in the wrong drag you along with them is folly...
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Pel, shut up.
Amen. I don't recommend that anyone invest much time in this topic, however. Pelegius's initial post is so utterly lame, and so many of us are so utterly sick of it, that we'll point out how dumb the post is, and Pelegius will, as usual, just delete the thread.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve:
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius:
I know what is said about me and those who hold similar ideals and think similar thoughts, that we are but madmen tilting at windmills.
Actually people mostly just say you're annoying and rude. It has nothing to do with your beliefs, and everything to do with how you present them.
I say Pelegius is a brat. Probably an upper middle class spoiled brat, but a brat one way or the other. Pel, you need a spanking more than you need any attention. Grow up already.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
I'm a liberal, and I don't agree with anything that you're saying. I think you're making broad generalizations about people who make it a point to be considerate and intelligent in their discussions. I have never seen any of the comments you claim to be "typical" of conservatives.
I also agree with blacwolve. I think you've just being incredibly rude and lumping people into your narrow-minded view of conservatives. They are not the enemy, but merely people with a different point of view.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Pelegius, if you would not like someone to start a thread entitled "Pelegius's Motto," then why do you think it's appropriate to start this thread?
And, if you would like someone to start such a thread, please, let us know. I have a few choice offerings that might be pertinent.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Pel, are you *trying* to start a flame war?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
What I like about snow is that it is pretty; walking home in the cold is a fell experience. Walking home in a snowstorm, though, is a story. You can anticipate the hot cocoa when you get home. As you stomp through the pristine snow, trampeling away its virgin-pure status, you feel like an etheral grace has briefly touched the earth.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Pel, let's put this in perspective: General Sax has posted in this thread, and he was not the least reasonable person posting in it.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Pel isn't going to hear anything anyone says here anyway, so why don't we talk about something else?
I love to eat clementines this time of year.
ETA: Oops! I'm such a slow typist. I started this post before Phanto said what I was trying to say, but much better than I did.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: Pel isn't going to hear anything anyone says here anyway, so why don't we talk about something else?
I love to eat clementines this time of year.
I've never had a clementine.
It is a darling name, though.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I'm dreadfully sorry you've never had a clementine.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
You know what is a really cool word? Esoteric.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
synectic.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
scrumdiddlyumptious.
edit: screw you, Firefox, it is so a word!
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
quote:Originally posted by Euripides: Pel, are you *trying* to start a flame war?
Definition of a troll.
Crysophase is still a troll, even though he wears a suit and acts all snooty.
I tell you, Pratchett works everywhere.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Projection: the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects; especially : the externalization of blame, guilt, or responsibility as a defense against anxiety. (m-w.com)
--
Clementines are indeed wonderful. And I don't even like oranges or tangerines.
I bet I'd like clementine wedges dipped in chocolate even more.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd:
quote:Every time I have discussed politics with a Conservative, I have had the impression that what they truly were saying was:
"Were that I had a machine gun to kill the unworthy Arabs/Mexicans/homosexuals/poor people/Liberals."
Bullshit.
I know quite a few conservatives on this board and I know this is not even an impression they give. I know that you have had discourse with these same people and I know that you are not stupid enough to have gleaned this "impression" from them either. In short, you are lying.
You know, Karl, he might actually be telling the truth, but only because his actions severly limit who will actually talk to him about their beliefs.
I, for example, have never discussed with him my conservative views, and can't imagine ever doing so as long as he continues to act this way.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
Pel's passionate, attention-starved, and likes people to think that he's smart. If he weren't so unbelievably immature he would just be annoying.
Pel - Your Marcus Aurelius quote says nothing about making an ass out of oneself in support of his beliefs. Probably because he knew that that isn't something a person who wants to be taken seriously does.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Will B: Clementines are indeed wonderful. And I don't even like oranges or tangerines.
But clementines and tangerines taste almost the same. The only real difference I notice is the thinner skin. Oh, and no seeds instead of very few.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Where does one obtain clementines? I've never seen them in grocery stores.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "Were that I had a machine gun to kill the unworthy Arabs/Mexicans/homosexuals/poor people/Liberals."
Would.
And you should know that our Liberals up here are "liberal" in name only, really. They're just a smidgin more liberal than the Conservatives. Our major political spectrum runs not A to Z but M to N.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
In about 20 years, once Pel gets over himself, and if he keeps reading and doesn't commit suicide or devolve into a blathering mess of unintelligible garble, he is going to make a fantastic writer.
Posted by Pelegius' Nemesis (Member # 9960) on :
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
...you have got to be kidding me.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Will B: Clementines are indeed wonderful. And I don't even like oranges or tangerines.
Are clementines basically tangelos, then?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Where does one obtain clementines? I've never seen them in grocery stores.
You need better grocery stores. We grow 'em here in California, and ship 'em throughout the US. Wikipedia tells me they are available in Europe, and I've had them in Israel (grown there, I believe) as well.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Will B: Clementines are indeed wonderful. And I don't even like oranges or tangerines.
But clementines and tangerines taste almost the same. The only real difference I notice is the thinner skin. Oh, and no seeds instead of very few.
The clementines I get sometimes have seeds. It makes me sad.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Pelegius' Nemesis
*blink* *blink*
Uhh... did someone forget that rule about not feeding the trolls? Cause you know... that's just gonna make his head bloat until it's just about ready to expl... oh, carry on.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Are clementines basically tangelos, then?
No, although they are somewhat similar. I find them most similar in taste to honey tangerines.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
<-- loves Pelegius' Nemesis.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The clementines I get sometimes have seeds. It makes me sad.
According to the wikiarticle, this is due to *giggle* trespassing bees!
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I sense a lock sometime soon.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Where does one obtain clementines? I've never seen them in grocery stores.
You need better grocery stores. We grow 'em here in California, and ship 'em throughout the US. Wikipedia tells me they are available in Europe, and I've had them in Israel (grown there, I believe) as well.
I get them at the Jewel here in Chicago.
And the first cut on the classic album "Sippurei Poogy" includes the line:
וגם אוכל את הקליפות של קלמנטינות
Which is an indication of how common they are in Israel. Though in my experience, they tended to have green rinds, rather than orange ones. I suspect the ones we get here are artificially colored.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: The clementines I get sometimes have seeds. It makes me sad.
According to the wikiarticle, this is due to *giggle* trespassing bees!
Huh! There oughta be a law.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: I sense a lock sometime soon.
The question is, will Pel be able to delete the whole topic before it gets locked?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Though in my experience, they tended to have green rinds, rather than orange ones. I suspect the ones we get here are artificially colored.
Doubtful. I've seen them growing here -- orange. My guess is that they are a slightly different breed (I have a vague recollection that the Hebrew word is used not just for clementines, but for tangerines and tangelos as well -- Morfix seems to support that notion).
And apparently the farmers have sued the beekeepers, but I imagine it's rather difficult to keep the little buggers where you want 'em.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Clementines are called mikan in Japan.
One of my favourite fruits.
Never seen a green one before, even in the plantations. That's probably because I only notice them when they mature/visit my grandparents' place during that season.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Even when they're really small?
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Just added the last sentence to my last post, sorry.
Posted by Objectivity (Member # 4553) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: As many of you know, I love Les Misérables, both the musical and the novel. Javert has always been the archetypal Conservative in my eye.
"For so it must be, for so it is written, on the doorway to paradise, that those who falter and those who fall, must pay the price."
I could agree with you about his being an archetypal conservative, but I would also point out that he's a one dimensional character who exists to serve the story. Real people don't have a script to follow or plot points to reach.
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I know what is said about me and those who hold similar ideals and think similar thoughts, that we are but madmen tilting at windmills.
I say better a madman with his spear aimed at a windmill than a sane man with his gun aimed at a human heart.
Here I stand, I can do no other.
Deep down inside, I think conservatives and liberals and those of all other sane political peruasions have the same ideal of peace, harmony and tranquilty. One key difference is that liberals create law as if they already live in that place and we, the people, just need proper rules in place to realize it; conservatives create law recognizing that we're not there yet and bases its rules on where we truly are in hopes of making it that ideal.
I think the issue at hand is that you're taking what you perceive to be the position of the Republican Party as the position of all members of that party, when in truth most convervatives (or liberals for that matter) have never read the party platform nor care what it says.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Sneaky edit! Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Hey, is it true that eating too many can cause your skin pigmentation to change (i.e. become slightly more yellow)?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by Euripides: Hey, is it true that eating too many can cause your skin pigmentation to change (i.e. become slightly more yellow)?
Too many whats?
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Clementines.
I heard something about carrots doing the same thing though. I remember going to the pool with a family which ate a lot of carrots and thinking they looked a bit orangish, but I was a younger, more impressionable kid at the time.
It's probably not true. Or if it is, the change is theoretical/too slight to be noticed.
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
Despite agreeing that many conservatives I've met actually have had similar attitudes to the OP's original statement, generalizing is disgusting, and I detest people that practice that with any group, political or otherwise.
There are plenty of conservatives that may believe something is wrong, but are good people with good hearts, and who don't want others to suffer. At least, I cling to that belief to keep myself from being insane. Can someone please verify for me that people can believe something is wrong and not feel animosity? Because, sadly, I don't come across that often...
But, even if I don't, I do recognize that out there, there are probably people who run the entire spectrum of conservatism. Taking the most far-out, extreme conservatives and using them to label a group is wrong. People have the right to believe however they wish and not be trivialized, harassed, belittled, or stereotyped for doing so. So please shut up and stop representing everyone left of center as hateful.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:generalizing is disgusting
Hey, quit making generalizations about generalizing!
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
As I understand it, clementines are also called satsumas. I have a box of them right here, and I'm going to go eat one. Possibly after dipping it in melted dark chocolate.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: I sense a lock sometime soon.
The question is, will Pel be able to delete the whole topic before it gets locked?
Ah. Let's see how it goes. Want to place a bet on it?
I offer 20 red chips!
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Oooh, chips! *eats the chips*
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
quote:I've never had a clementine.
It is a darling name, though.
My code of ethics is such that I cannot allow this to go without recognition.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei:
As I understand it, clementines are also called satsumas.
Yep, they're named after what used to be a province in Japan, home to great sweet potatoes and the last samurai rebellion.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Euripides: Clementines.
I heard something about carrots doing the same thing though. I remember going to the pool with a family which ate a lot of carrots and thinking they looked a bit orangish, but I was a younger, more impressionable kid at the time.
It's probably not true. Or if it is, the change is theoretical/too slight to be noticed.
My mom actually has a distinct orange tinge due to excess carrot consumption. It's the beta carotene.
I wouldn't think clementines had enough to have that effect, but who knows.
As for satsumas, they're in the same general mandarin family -- in the U.S., they get called a type of tangerine.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Princess Leah: My code of ethics is such that I cannot allow this to go without recognition.
*pouts at not being accorded due recognition for "dreadfully sorry" response*
Oh, and erosomniac, I've only seen clementines packed in little wooden crates in the grocery store--they're not loose in the produce section. (Just in case the packaging is what's throwing you off the trail.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yup, that's what my mom has. And she's not even a vegetarian -- she just really likes carrots. And squash. And sweet potatoes.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: *pouts at not being accorded due recognition for "dreadfully sorry" response*
I noticed!
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
rivka!
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Oh wow, so it is true.
Posted by Chanie (Member # 9544) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Where does one obtain clementines? I've never seen them in grocery stores.
Clementines here in the Northeast usually come in little wooden crates. I've never seen them loose. Any only during certain seasons.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
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rivka!
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