Hot on the heels of Michael Richards's incident comes a similar one from Rosie O'Donnell:
quote:Rosie O'Donnell says she's sorry for mocking spoken Chinese on "The View," but an association that represents journalists from diverse ethnic and racial backgrounds, including Chinese American, says it wasn't enough.
In a Dec. 5 segment, O'Donnell joked about how Danny DeVito's recent — and seemingly drunken — appearance on the ABC daytime talk show had become international news.
"You know, you can imagine in China it's like `ching chong, ching chong chong, Danny DeVito, ching chong chong chong, drunk, "The View," ching chong,'" the 44-year-old comedian said.
On Thursday's show, she told the audience: "To say ching chong to someone is very offensive, and some Asian people have told me it's as bad as the n-word. Which I was like, `Really? I didn't know that.'"
Karen Lincoln Michel, president-elect of Unity: Journalists of Color Inc., said O'Donnell's remarks "really didn't sound like an apology to me."
Lincoln Michel said Unity was waiting for Barbara Walters, who created the show, to respond to a letter asking her to publicly acknowledge that O'Donnell's remarks were "patently offensive."
"I think by allowing Rosie O'Donnell's cheap jabs at Chinese Americans to go unchecked, then the network is essentially condoning racial and ethnic slurs," Lincoln Michel told the AP in a phone interview.
Unity said it represents more than 10,000 journalists nationwide.
"You know it was never (my) intent to mock," O'Donnell said on Thursday's show, "and I'm sorry for those people who felt hurt or were teased on the playground."
"But I'm also gonna give you a fair warning that there's a good chance I'll do something like that again, probably in the next week — not on purpose. Only 'cause it's how my brain works."
O'Donnell characterized her accent as "Chinese, Asian, pseudo-Japanese, sounded a little Yiddish ..."
I can accept her statement that she didn't know how offensive her joke was to Chinese Americans, though it seems to me that anyone should know that when you mock the speaking style of an ethnic group other than your own you're asking for trouble.
But you don't apologize for even an unintentional racist remark by comparing it to being "teased on the playground" and joking that you'll probably do something similar again. And why does she need to say, "you know it was never my intent to mock," as if the people offended are guilty of taking the incident too seriously? At least Michael Richards put up the appearance of sincerity in his apology.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
It was a dumb comment to make and its unfortunate that THAT is her definition of an apology. Perhaps she didn't think one was in order and simply excused herself, I dunno.
I must confess I have never EVER heard a Chinese person say, "ching ching chong is like the N word for me." But admittedly I grew up amongst the Chinese not amongst the Chinese Americans. But I can see how jokes like that would be really tiresome and insulting, especially with how lumped together Asians are by other Americans.
If Ms O'Donnell wanted to refine her standard "Chinese news" sound I could probably give her some pointers. Even refine it towards Cantonese which sounds much more vulgar and funny then mandarin to my ears.
Then again would anybody have laughed if something big happened in China and she had said,
"You can imagine its like in America, "Earlier today a noted Chinese actor WAAANG CHUUNG was found at the Mang Shang bridge..." Nobody wants to laugh at how badly Americans butcher Chinese, why should we laugh at the Chinese who interpose English because there is no Chinese word for Danny De Vito?
[ December 15, 2006, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
I am so tired of everyone caring about stupid stuff like this (not referring to Omega M.). Just change the channel and maybe throw out your copy of A League of Their Own.
And why is it okay to make fun of your own ethnicity/culture? Either it's wrong to make fun of ethnicity/culture or it is not. If it's funny (like Carlos Mencia, who makes fun of EVERYONE) then it's funny, choose not to be offended and get in a good chuckle. If it's not funny, don't listen, don't watch, don't talk about, don't fuel the fire, don't make a big deal about, just change the channel and think to yourself, "Wow, that Rosey isn't funny!"
[/rant]
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I agree. She should have said, "I feel like an idiot. I had no idea that was offensive, and I'm really sorry. If there's a silver lining, it's that many other people probably didn't realize that it's offensive, and now they will. Again, I'm sorry I said that, and thank you for letting me know."
That, I would have respected.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I've done the same thing in talking about Telemundo. That is, if I'm tired and not concentrating on it, it sounds like "blah blah blah blah blah Coke a cola. Blah blah blah blah."
I don't think this should be classified as racist. Insensitive perhaps, but calling it racist seems way overboard to me.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
In Korea the their mock English equivalent of "ching ching chong chong" is "shilly shilly shally shally."
Because we took the bus so much on my LDS mission, my companion and I would often have deep meaning conversations for everyone to hear.
Me: "Shilly shilly shally." Him: "Shally shilly shilly shally?" Me: "Shilly shilly shally shilly!" Him: "Ohhhhh....Shally shally shally. *nods *continued is similar vain for 10-15 minutes.
Little kids loved it. They would just watch with fascinated eyes. Adults would try to listen in and always looked really confused. hehe
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I am so tired of everyone caring about stupid stuff like this (not referring to Omega M.). Just change the channel and maybe throw out your copy of A League of Their Own.
And why is it okay to make fun of your own ethnicity/culture? Either it's wrong to make fun of ethnicity/culture or it is not. If it's funny (like Carlos Mencia, who makes fun of EVERYONE) then it's funny, choose not to be offended and get in a good chuckle. If it's not funny, don't listen, don't watch, don't talk about, don't fuel the fire, don't make a big deal about, just change the channel and think to yourself, "Wow, that Rosey isn't funny!"
[/rant]
Of course it's okay to make fun of your own ethnicity/culture/race. I don't get what that's even an issue. Funny is funny. The only reason it's wrong to make fun of others is that it's so often part of a general pattern of oppression.
One summer when I was on staff at a Jewish summer camp in Wisconsin, we were sitting around the staff lounge and started telling Jewish jokes. We went about 2 hours, I think, starting with fairly innocuous ones, and getting into really nasty and horrifying ones (even Holocaust ones). I mean, jokes that would have shocked Mel Gibson.
Along the way, people kept coming into the lounge and going out, and people who found it distasteful didn't hang around, but a lot of people stayed. It was actually cathartic, in a way.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
For the record, I don't believe Carlos Mencia is funny. I don't find him offensive or anything, just boring and obnoxious.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I find Carlos Mencia offensive, and I'm not even a minority.
Then again, I find almost all comedy offensive. Too much of it seems to rely on saying the most outrageous thing you can think of, and hoping people will laugh because it's so unexpected.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Carlos Mencia is, to me, one of the more even-handed race comedians out there. I don't normally find him offensive, just not all that funny.
He had some kind of live special on a couple months a go, that was actually pretty funny, though.
I wish Rosie would just tell these groups to go jump in a lake. It's ridiculous oversensitivity.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I find carlos offensive and hysterical. When what he says bothers me, I just choke it back because I laugh at the other stuff he says.
Very similar to south park.
And honestly, if we ditch this kind of humor we're left with stuff that's not funny. Think about all the Embarassment humor movies and Spy Hard type movies that have been out in recent.. well, decades... Most of them just aren't funny and the Embarassment motif is just painful.
Anyway, the reason it's ok to make fun of your own race and not others is because if you're making fun of yourself we *know* there's no hatred there. If a white person makes fun of black people, or vice versa, the presumption of racism favors the offended.
Carlos immunizes himself from this by picking on latinos more than anyone else. Much like Dave Chapell picked on Black people as much as (more than) whites.
Pix
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I don't really understand what the confusion is about.
Rosie O'Donnell made a racist comment, and then said:
quote:"But I'm also gonna give you a fair warning that there's a good chance I'll do something like that again, probably in the next week — not on purpose. Only 'cause it's how my brain works."
So basically, she made a racist comment, and is admitting she's a racist and will continue being a racist.
So...let's write her off as a racist. Case closed. There was nothing about her attitude or words that was even remotely apologetic.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Part of the problem is that there is no evidence that she is a racist. It really doesn't seem as if she were trying to offend and we've no evidence that she has any racist attitudes. She said something in a way that some people don't like. That doesn't make her a racist.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I've done the same thing in talking about Telemundo. That is, if I'm tired and not concentrating on it, it sounds like "blah blah blah blah blah Coke a cola. Blah blah blah blah."
I don't think this should be classified as racist. Insensitive perhaps, but calling it racist seems way overboard to me.
The difference is that "blah blah blah" is not historically (and presently) associated with racist attitudes toward not only Chinese, but all asians.
Do you really not understand how this is racist?
I've had people (not many, but this has happened more than once) that I didn't know whose only interaction with me is to stare at me and say "ching ching chong ching chong wang chong ching!" (I'm Japanese American).
If you think that's the equivilant of going "blah blah blah," well, then you're a racist too, bud.
Also, the difference between racial insensitivity and racism is like the one between punching a stranger in the face and shooting him in the foot: one of degree, not kind.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I kind of wish people would not do that in the first place. I was talking about being happy about being able to read the Japanese printed on the Boston Globe while talking about the new team member for the Red Sox with the cabdriver did that. It erks me and I'm not even chinese or Japanese, it just BUGS me. Especially when I know that Chinese or Japanese doesn't even sound like that! Also, how immature is it to do that to someone because they're Asian? *Extra sensitive towards prejudice towards Asians for some reason I can't figure out*
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Because some people use it in a racist way does not make it racist. I see no indication that Rosie O'Donnell intended this in any sort of racist way. It seems like from her perspective, what she was saying - though it definitely carries other implications - was pretty much equivilent to the "blah blah blah" thing.
quote:Also, the difference between racial insensitivity and racism is like the one between punching a stranger in the face and shooting him in the foot: one of degree, not kind.
You think actively hate and trying to hurt people of a specific race is different only in degree from not being completely aware of the things that may offend some people?
If disagreeing with that makes me a racist, I guess that's what I am.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:You think actively hate and trying to hurt people of a specific race is different only in degree from not being completely aware of the things that may offend some people?
No, I think acting in an inadverdantly racist fashion and then, once it has been called to your attention, being unapologetic and offering the disclaimer that you will do it again because that's 'the way you are' makes you a racist.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think it's hard for people to see it as racist because people generally don't see Chinese people as a minority. Not in the way we see African Americans or Latinos. So to everyone who isn't Asian, they see it as though Rosie were making fun of the French language, or a British accent, or something. Whereas to the people who are Asian, they are aware they're in the minority, so they see it as racist.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Mostly it makes her a bit insensitive to just how annoying that is to a lot of people, including me, but I tend to hate most ethnic jokes or people who immitate gay men by letting their arms go limp... It pisses me off throroughly, but i still laugh at a lot of stuff on South Park. (Though I did get irked over the skronky natives in the Amazon episode, and there are some episodes of theirs that make me think, that was a rather lame joke, but I can see what it's trying to do.) Perhaps more people should take the time to realize that what they think is an innocent joke or remark is really obnoxious to another person. It just seems like non-white people have to put up with this sort of thing all the time. (If this has been done to me, I don't even notice it)
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:No, I think acting in an inadverdantly racist fashion and then, once it has been called to your attention, being unapologetic and offering the disclaimer that you will do it again because that's 'the way you are' makes you a racist.
I don't think disagreeing about what constitutes a racist statement necessarily makes you a racist.
I think it's much more likely she heard the outcry, but disagrees that what she said was racist and therefore sees no reason to change her behavior. Which, in my book, makes her inconsiderate and insensitive; not racist.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I agree. She should have said, "I feel like an idiot. I had no idea that was offensive, and I'm really sorry. If there's a silver lining, it's that many other people probably didn't realize that it's offensive, and now they will. Again, I'm sorry I said that, and thank you for letting me know."
That, I would have respected.
Just chiming in to say that I think this would have been a brilliant apology. Too bad Lisa's not on her staff.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
As I see it, she wasn't making fun of the Chinese language. The ching chong ching was filler words for the words we don't understand in much the same way as my Telemundo example.
quote:I think acting in an inadverdantly racist fashion
I'm not sure you can act in an inadvertantly racist fashion. It seems clear she meant neither harm nor offense. From my view, she said that in the future, she may again express herself in ways that get people upset, in large part because she's not thinking about it, but she is again not going to mean any harm or offense. I really doubt she'll use the ching chong ching thing again. She didn't do anything wrong, and though it is possible her actiosn caused some small harm, she apologized for that. You seem to want her to say that she did something wrong.
So, what is the problem here, really? To me, it looks like people falling over themselves to portray themselves as victims of an innocent occurance. I'm very concerned about racism, but I think making a big deal a bout things like this hurts this cause rather than helps it.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I think it's much more likely she heard the outcry, but disagrees that what she said was racist and therefore sees no reason to change her behavior.
I don't see that last part as necessarily true. Like I said, it seems likely to me that now that she knows that it offends people, Ms. O'Donnell is unlikely to using ching chong ching again.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
See if she had taken out the "Ching Ching Chong" nonsense and actually said something in Chinese with the English interposition it would have sounded just as funny, because it IS funny to hear English in the middle of all that foreign sounding diction. Not only that, her humor would have been ALOT more refined as she actually took the time to learn how to imitate the language.
Look for those who didn't find it offensive that's fine, I'm not calling you a racist, I have the precarious dilemma of having grown up in China and yet I am not Chinese. Can I laugh at Chinese jokes?
Man I don't even know what my opinion is on this matter. Chinese people refer to Americans as "big nose" in Taiwan, and without any shame. They pinch their noses so their eyes look like ours, and they say Americans eat hamburgers and fries and thats about it. All without any sense of shame.
I dunno it just seemed Rosie was laughing at something that could be legitimately funny, but her complete ignorance on the Chinese culture kind of demonstrates no license to do so.
People compare it to Mencia, but does he make fun of things he has no idea about?
I dunno if you have seen the movie, "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story." They shows a scene where he and his girlfriend go out to the movies and see "Breakfast at Tiffany's" They show how in the movie within the movie there is a Chinese person in the movie and they basically make fun of him using stereotypes that are not accurate. They end up walking out of the movie and I can't say I blamed them, I already thought the movie sounded stupid, now I really don't ever want to see it.
I guess its a question of who your audience is. If I am around a bunch of expats we make fun of all the cultures we have lived amongst and just as often make fun of Americans who don't know what they are talking about in regards to other countries. If I was on a nationally broadcast show with an international audience, I wouldn't use such humor. If I was Mencia and my show caters to the ethnic humor crowd, go nuts.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
But, again, from what I can tell, this wasn't meant to be ethnically directed humor. In it's intent, it seems that the ching chong ching was meant in prety much the same way as the blah blah blah's (which I give a mexican accent to) in my example.
The joke is on the experience of everything blurring together and you being unable to understand anything except for the one little bit in English. Using actual, differentiated Chinese words would have killed the humor there.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
He was supposed to be Japanese played by Mickey Rooney. It annoyed the heck out of me about that movie. Perhaps people of other races are a bit sensitive about these things, but white people really never have to think about their whiteness until they're in China or Japan or Africa or some other place where they are the minority. They'd think, "It's just an innocent remark, some humour, why get offended?" But people who are not white have to put up with that sort of casual unconcious (Sp) racism all of the time. Perhaps they need to have this pointed out to them sometimes. People really get tired of that sort of thing... Especially Asian Americans who get that just for walking around looking Asian...
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I guess I should desist from saying (as I have in the past) that Russian sounds like people talking backwards. Nyet Culturnya!
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I think it's nekulturny.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:No, I think acting in an inadverdantly racist fashion and then, once it has been called to your attention, being unapologetic and offering the disclaimer that you will do it again because that's 'the way you are' makes you a racist.
I don't think disagreeing about what constitutes a racist statement necessarily makes you a racist.
I think it's much more likely she heard the outcry, but disagrees that what she said was racist and therefore sees no reason to change her behavior. Which, in my book, makes her inconsiderate and insensitive; not racist.
I used to play Everquest II with a kid from Texas who was really bothered by the stereotype that all Texans are redneck, gun-toting racists. He explained that there are a lot of black people in Texas, and that for the most part blacks and whites get along. I was listening intently, because the kid sounded sincere (to explain, we were on Teamspeak, so I could actually HEAR him).
He explained that he doesn't even use the "n-word" jokingly, because it's so racist. I was impressed. Then he clarified that "the lazy, no-good blacks are a different story. Those're niggers. You know the kind I'm talking about."
I tried to explain to him that that was a pretty offensive and racist thing to say, and he was appalled that I thought so. He sincerely believed that he was not at all being racist.
Do you think he was being a racist? Or just insensitive?
Because honestly, if you really believe there's a distinction there, you're operating in a totally different universe than I am.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Mr S: Guess we will have to disagree, I would have found it quite funny if she had used real Chinese.
Is Chinese really funny because it all sounds the same (because it really doesn't) or because it sounds so strange and different?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: As I see it, she wasn't making fun of the Chinese language. The ching chong ching was filler words for the words we don't understand in much the same way as my Telemundo example.
quote:I think acting in an inadverdantly racist fashion
I'm not sure you can act in an inadvertantly racist fashion. It seems clear she meant neither harm nor offense. From my view, she said that in the future, she may again express herself in ways that get people upset, in large part because she's not thinking about it, but she is again not going to mean any harm or offense. I really doubt she'll use the ching chong ching thing again. She didn't do anything wrong, and though it is possible her actiosn caused some small harm, she apologized for that. You seem to want her to say that she did something wrong.
So, what is the problem here, really? To me, it looks like people falling over themselves to portray themselves as victims of an innocent occurance. I'm very concerned about racism, but I think making a big deal a bout things like this hurts this cause rather than helps it.
Squick, I really have no problem with you outside of this, but I'm going to leave this thread now, because it's apparent to me you're as unaware of your racist attitude as Rosie is, and I'm just going to keep getting angrier and angrier with you without a purpose, because you obviously don't understand what about your attitude is so infuriating.
Sorry.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
bb: When I first started watching Anime (Yes, I know, japanese and chinese are as different as english and russian) to my untrained Arkansan ears, japanese sounded... well.. this is awful, but it's the most accurate description... like "monkey talk". Especially when they were angry. My brain couldn't parse the sounds so it really sounded like screeching.
Now I can't even conceive of hearing Japanese like that. Yeah, I still can't understand it very well but at least I can break the sounds apart and assemilate them and now I *hear* it and I realize what a beautiful language it is. I LOVE the sound of Japanese.
I think "ching chong" is what chinese sounds like to untrained english ears. Even I frequently hear it like that and I've worked with chinese people for years.
As for "Is Rosey Racist?" I have no idea... There's prolly some racism in there somewhere. I doubt she's maliciously racist.
erso: I've heard the "there's black people and then there's N-words" idea before. I'm not sure what I think about it because if I heard "There's gay people and then there's fags/rugmunchers" I would be upset but if I heard "There's women and then there's sluts/bitchs" I wouldn't be.
(thinking outloud) maybe it's the idea that such a bad word has been used too often to describe an entire set of people is what makes it wrong even if you are only using the word to describe a small number of "bad apples"
Pix
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Thing is, she didn't make a racist comment. She made a linguistic comment. The Chinese language is not a race.
Now, Rosie was offended because somebody didn't want to shake hands with people in the audience during cold and flu season; she called that comment "homophobic." No, I don't get it either. So it's apparent her offensitivity is highly selective.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Maybe we should all go to Led Robster and talk things over.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I'd like to point that just a few weeks ago Rosie tore into Kelly Ripa for what Rosie considered a homophobic remark towards Clay Aiken. Why is it OK for Rosie to not only make racist remarks, even if unintentionally, but state that she will probably keep doing it, but no one can make homophobic comments? To me, she sounds a bit hypocritical.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Pix: Completely with you on the Japanese point. At first it sounded like funny gibberish to me but now I LOVE the way it sounds.
But when it comes to cantonese, I've heard if for years and it just does not sound good to me. The only reason I want to hear it is because it is nostalgic to me of my days in Hong Kong. Kinda like how I love the tar smell of freshly laid road because it reminds me of home, but I would never pretend that people should learn to appreciate the smell on its own merits.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
That's exactly what I was thinking, gator. She got all defensive for that issue and glosses over this one.
That said, I think the whole culture of "getting offended" is overblown. When people say/do offensive things, it's your choice how you react to it. You can choose to demand an apology, or take the higher ground and blow it off.
That's my opeenion.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:I think it's much more likely she heard the outcry, but disagrees that what she said was racist and therefore sees no reason to change her behavior.
I don't see that last part as necessarily true. Like I said, it seems likely to me that now that she knows that it offends people, Ms. O'Donnell is unlikely to using ching chong ching again.
I think you're probably right. But her reaction was singularly ungracious. I mean, hell, if you did something, completely innocently (which I think was the case here, btw) that you found out was really offensive to a whole group of people, would you say, "Oh, oops. But you know, I'll probably do the same kind of thing again, and soon". Or would you say, "Oh, sh**. I didn't realize that was offensive. Sorry."
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I find it odd...well, on second thought, I don't find it odd at all that it was a group of JOURNALIST who protested. Too much of what passes for journalism today is creating controversy where none really exists.
You know back in the good old days, there was a Swedish Chef on the Muppet Show who only spoke in mock-Swedish, and the funny thing is, lots of people laugh, and I don't remember the American Swedish Institute being up in arms. In fact, I suspect they laughed along with the rest of us.
Speaking in mock languges is an old comedic trick and more than anything it is making fun of the American far more that the respresented mock language. There is, in fact, one comedian who speak in many many mock languages and captures the tone and inflection of the various world languages to perfection, even though he never utters a coherent word.
I see Rosie as now living the very point she was making. She was commenting that Danny DeVito's inconsequental and insignificant appearance on The View had now been blown up into international news by journalists eager to create controversy where none exists in order to boast ratings and sell ad space.
Her comments had nothing to do with China or the Chinese people. They had to do with an insignificant story being so blown out of proportion that even people in remote parts of the world were talking about it. She simply used China as an example of a remote distant place were little Western news was likely exist. The 'ching chong' was the least of her statement, and by using 'ching chong' she comically exaggerated her own lack of knowledge of that language.
Keep in mind that I have heard lots of comedians speak in mock languages as a joke. I've heard Jay Leno speak in mock-French, essentually using vocalizations that he associated with the French. I didn't hear the French up in arms over that.
This is a complete non-story that doesn't even deserve a second of air time or printer's ink. This is hack journalist desperate to fill air time with any controversy they can fabricate. Children are being slaughtered in Africa, the Middle East is in a perpetual state of irrational hysteria, Russia is assasinating people in foreign countries, people are starving, irrational power-mad fanatics are killing people every where, and the best news we can come up with is Rosie spoke mock-Chinese while making both a joke and a valid point.
Really people, are we that sad? Have we really fallen that far?
It was a joke, get over it. Better yet, spend your energy doing something about the real atrocities that exist in the world, and quit wasting our time.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Will B: Thing is, she didn't make a racist comment. She made a linguistic comment. The Chinese language is not a race.
It was racist/culturist/stereotyping/bigoted, or would have been had she known.
When people use "Jew" as an adjective ("a Jew banker", for example), or even worse, as a verb, I tell them straight out that it's an anti-semitic way of talking. Now... if I find out that the person honestly didn't know that (which is possible) and doesn't do it again, I don't think that person counts as an anti-semite. If they were to say, "Who knew? I'll probably do something like that again next week", I'll think they're obnoxious, but still not an anti-semite, because they didn't say they were going to do that again -- they at least recognized that it was offensive, even if they were kind of rude about their response. If, on the other hand, they say, "Get over it", then yes, they're an anti-semite.
Rosie is not a racist. She said something that would definitely be racist/culturist/etc-ist if she knew it was offensive, and I think it's pretty clear she's not going to do it again. But she was obnoxious in the way she responded to it. I guarantee you she wouldn't have been so blase about it had someone else innocently used a slur against lesbians.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Look for those who didn't find it offensive that's fine, I'm not calling you a racist, I have the precarious dilemma of having grown up in China and yet I am not Chinese. Can I laugh at Chinese jokes?
Man I don't even know what my opinion is on this matter. Chinese people refer to Americans as "big nose" in Taiwan, and without any shame. They pinch their noses so their eyes look like ours, and they say Americans eat hamburgers and fries and thats about it. All without any sense of shame.
I dunno it just seemed Rosie was laughing at something that could be legitimately funny, but her complete ignorance on the Chinese culture kind of demonstrates no license to do so.
My attitude would probably be similar to yours although maybe more laid back. For the record, my background is Chinese-Canadian, so I had the reverse experience, growing up in Canada in a predominantly white area while being ethnically Chinese.
To be honest, the whole 'Chong Qing' thing sounds more like ignorance and insensitivity than true racism. I mean there was no intent to offend and no real racial meaning. When compared to stuff like the use of racial profiling against Middle-Easterners, concentration camps for the Japanese during WWII, the continued existence of KKK-like groups in the American south, and the dismissal of that Chinese scientist from Los Alamos labs simply for being Chinese... this is so far down the list of legitimate offences in the US, that it almost seems to demean the legitimate offences.
For the record, being Cantonese, I might note that the predominant term for white people is "Gwai Lo" which essentially means ghost-people. It would probably take me some time just to *think* about using another term. Then again, they never even renamed Hong Kong despite the fact that it essentially means "fragrant harbour" due to the smell of all the drugs that the British smuggled into China.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
You know what I really think?
If we are ever to accept each other as brothers and sisters of the human race we need to just let stupid sh*t like this go. We are different, as individuals, as groups. We will always be different, as individuals and as groups.
But we are also the same, as individuals and as groups. We all need love, and food, and search desparatly for happiness.
The rest is just not important.
There are places in the world and times in history where people were killed, enslaved, disenfranchized, paid less, beaten in the streets, treated with utter disrespect, etc.
A celebrity making a bad joke on a talk show is not that.
The more we focus on how much we are hurting each other, the more we insist on being victoms, the further away from unity and harmony we move.
It was just a stupid joke.
Part of what makes Carlos Mencia funny is that he makes fun of everything that he feels deserves to be made fun of. He treates everyone the same.
We are all just human beings trying to make it.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
In a temporary lapse, I find myself posting again in this thread.
quote:Thing is, she didn't make a racist comment. She made a linguistic comment. The Chinese language is not a race.
No, it's not a linguistic comment - the use of "ching ching chong" and similar monosyllables to refer to the Chinese (or any asian) language is too closely tied with racism in US history for it to simply be a matter of linguistics, any more than a person saying "black people look like monkeys!" could be a comment on the bone structure and anthropological history of blacks.
quote:You know back in the good old days, there was a Swedish Chef on the Muppet Show who only spoke in mock-Swedish, and the funny thing is, lots of people laugh, and I don't remember the American Swedish Institute being up in arms. In fact, I suspect they laughed along with the rest of us.
Again - perhaps if the Swedes had been openly discriminated against by most of the nation in recent history through mocking the way their language sounds, this might be a relevant example.
Instead, it isn't.
quote:This is a complete non-story that doesn't even deserve a second of air time or printer's ink.
I know you aren't directing this specifically at me, but I wholeheartedly agree - hence my first post in this thread. What I take issue with is people trying to say that what she said isn't racist. Yes, it is racist. It's racist, and mildly offensive, and we can move on. But the continued insistence that this isn't racist is what really bothers me.
Lisa summed it up well here:
quote:I mean, hell, if you did something, completely innocently (which I think was the case here, btw) that you found out was really offensive to a whole group of people, would you say, "Oh, oops. But you know, I'll probably do the same kind of thing again, and soon". Or would you say, "Oh, sh**. I didn't realize that was offensive. Sorry."
If she were apologetic, I'd be willing to believe it wasn't a racist comment, just an ignorant mistake.
quote:It was a joke, get over it. Better yet, spend your energy doing something about the real atrocities that exist in the world, and quit wasting our time.
Pot, kettle - have you two met?
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
It was not racist, unless you're using "racist" to mean something unrelated to race, such as "bad." But we already have a word for "bad."
What it was, was offensive. Terms matter.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Mucus: lol Even without the drugs Hong Kong's harbor is so polluted that its name is still misleading. If you are in Hong Kong its not uncommon to get the common phrase, "Qi Sing" attached to the "Guai Lo." "Crazy White Ghost."
Depending on how its said it can be a term of endearment or a vicious label.
I guess I can't help but think Rosie got her joke from something like "How do Chinese people name their children? Throw change into a pot, CHING CHING CHANG!"
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Will B: It was not racist, unless you're using "racist" to mean something unrelated to race, such as "bad." But we already have a word for "bad."
What it was, was offensive. Terms matter.
Yes, they do.
Racist. Period. No more, no less.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I always heard it as dropping silverware. And I do think that joke is racist.
[small voice] but it's still kinda funny . . . [/small voice]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Will B: I don't believe that what Rosie said amounts to actual racism, but not for a stupid reason like semantics. The fact is that the popular definition of racism relates to ethnic groups, not necessarily one of the "races". Thats why people use the term racism for prejudice against Middle-Easterners, or Hispanics, or FOBs, even though none of them are real "races".
As for this issue, the fact is that the vast majority of people that speak Chinese *are* ethnically Chinese, so you can't get away from the popular belief that a prejudiced attitude toward the Chinese language is racist anymore than a bigoted joke towards Hebrew would get you in hot water as an anti-semite.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I always heard it as dropping silverware. And I do think that joke is racist.
[small voice] but it's still kinda funny . . . [/small voice]
It's no different than "Why do Jews have big noses? Because air is free."
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
Okay, I'm going to try one more post and then I'm leaving this thread.
erosomniac: So the comments were racest...so what? What harm did it cause? BlueWizard has pointed out that making fun of other languages is a common humor tactic. Many comics make fun of culteral differences.
So, an actress made a racest joke on tv. So what?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: It's no different than "Why do Jews have big noses? Because air is free."
How about,'He's got more chins than a Chinese telephone book"?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:He explained that he doesn't even use the "n-word" jokingly, because it's so racist. I was impressed. Then he clarified that "the lazy, no-good blacks are a different story. Those're niggers. You know the kind I'm talking about."
I tried to explain to him that that was a pretty offensive and racist thing to say, and he was appalled that I thought so. He sincerely believed that he was not at all being racist.
Do you think he was being a racist? Or just insensitive?
Because honestly, if you really believe there's a distinction there, you're operating in a totally different universe than I am.
I don't think there's any wiggle room on whether or not the word 'nigger' is a racist term.
I don't think the same can necessarily be said for what Rosie O'Donnell said. I wouldn't say it, just to be safe, especially now that I've heard some in the target group say that they consider it racist. But I can also understand someone else not agreeing that it *is* racist.*
As I said before, though, the very act of disagreeing with someone over what *they* find offensive is insensitive and inconsiderate. And that I what I personally think happened here. YMMV.
*For example, I know several people who think the words 'honky', 'cracker', and/or 'redneck' are racist. I personally could care less; none of those are the least bit offensive to me.
Much more offensive to me is the idea that any word anyone says offends them becomes off limits for all time. That's the kind of oversensitive PC b.s. that drives me insane.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
quote: It's no different than "Why do Jews have big noses? Because air is free."
How about,'He's got more chins than a Chinese telephone book"?
Not exactly the same. The humor is directed at the obesity, not the fact that telephone books in China are really thick because of their high population levels. If the joke was,
"That telephone book has as many chins as a fat man." It wouldn't be funny, but it would be kinda rude to Chinese people."
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I think we need to make a stronger distinction between real racism and simple annoyance or distaste. To me, it seems like lots of Americans are hypersensitive, trying to find offense in everything. The politically correct movement wants to constantly redefine what is and is not ok to say, to the point that it's impossible to know from one day to the next what people will find offensive.
I think we need to look at the motive and intention of a person. If they're trying to hurt or belittle then it's probably racist. If they're trying to be funny and friendly, even if some people find it in poor taste, maybe it's not racism, it's just a dumb joke or an innocent mistake.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
If Ching ching is as bad as the "n" word, then why is it that people don't write nigger while they will write the other? (And I think that's the first that I, myself, have ever written the "n" word.)
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
The first time I looked at this thread title I swear it said Rosie O'Donnell's racist giraffe. And then I was confused so I looked in. And yea there are no giraffes here.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Japanese sounds rather cool to me. So does Mandarin, it's kind of musical, I like the way it sounds better than Cantonese, but Cantonese has this sort of inflection that is cool.
That ching ching stuff is just more obnoxious that blatantly racist like the n word.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Okay, I'm going to try one more post and then I'm leaving this thread.
erosomniac: So the comments were racest...so what? What harm did it cause? BlueWizard has pointed out that making fun of other languages is a common humor tactic. Many comics make fun of culteral differences.
So, an actress made a racest joke on tv. So what?
See my first post: I don't care. Rosie O'Donnell being a racist, publicly or privately, affects me or asian americans generally zero. This is why my first post said, specifically, that we can consider this an open'n'shut. I'll quote it again here:
quote:So basically, she made a racist comment, and is admitting she's a racist and will continue being a racist.
So...let's write her off as a racist. Case closed.
My problem is with people denying that her comment is a racist one.
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang : I don't think there's any wiggle room on whether or not the word 'nigger' is a racist term.
There's the same amount of wiggle room on whether using "ching chang chong" as an approximation for Chinese or any asian conversational dialect is racist.
quote:I don't think the same can necessarily be said for what Rosie O'Donnell said. I wouldn't say it, just to be safe, especially now that I've heard some in the target group say that they consider it racist. But I can also understand someone else not agreeing that it *is* racist.*
Again, here's the distinction: if Rosie had heard the reaction and said "I didn't know that was racist of me; I'm sorry, I'll do my best to avoid it in the future" or something similar, the problem would be over. I imagine most people in the offended demographic would be more willing to write it off as an accident.
Instead, she dismissed it as playground antics, and said, bluntly, 'I'll probably do it again.'
quote:Much more offensive to me is the idea that any word anyone says offends them becomes off limits for all time. That's the kind of oversensitive PC b.s. that drives me insane.
Explain to me, then, your reluctance to type, in a completely value-neutral scenario, the word "nigger."
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I think it's hard for people to see it as racist because people generally don't see Chinese people as a minority. Not in the way we see African Americans or Latinos. So to everyone who isn't Asian, they see it as though Rosie were making fun of the French language, or a British accent, or something. Whereas to the people who are Asian, they are aware they're in the minority, so they see it as racist.
Why is okay to make fun of French or British accents and language, but not Chinese? I don't get the distinction.
I usually laugh when cartoons mock the French language.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
You don't seem to be reading my posts. I'm sorry to see that.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Because people won't be seriously offended if I make a joke about French courage or British gaiety. If a class is well-off enough in public perception, no one cares about insulting them.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: You don't seem to be reading my posts. I'm sorry to see that.
I read yours pretty thoroughly; are you reading mine?
Doesn't appear that way.
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: I think the whole culture of "getting offended" is overblown. When people say/do offensive things, it's your choice how you react to it. You can choose to demand an apology, or take the higher ground and blow it off.
That's my opeenion.
I share your opinion. I'm all for trying as hard as you can NOT to offend people, but it feels like people are trying hard to be offended. I think that what Rosie said was not necessarily racist, but I suppose I can see how some people would be bothered by it. To me racism entails saying things that degrade or demoralize, or perpetuate stereotypes that are not truthful. Would Rosie hang out with/respect an Asian person? I have no reason to think she wouldn't. Chinese sounds different than English. Rosie doesn't speak Chinese (I presume). Whatever. I just can't figure out what the big deal is. If she had said something like "those stupid (fill in the blank) referring to Asians, that I would be upset about.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I think a big part of the problem with this thread is that people seem to think that "offensive" is a necessary component of "racist" (adj).
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Maybe it would help if you defined racism for us eros, so we understand where you are coming from.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Indeed. "Racism" does not really mean "having nothing to do with race." But, by all means, anyone who wants to insist that it does, keep insisting.
Main Entry: rac·ism Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi- Function: noun 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination (m-w.com)
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
As a Chinese-American, I'm pretty much with eros: Rosie's joke was insensitive at best, and her non-apology after the fact makes her come off as a grade-A asshole. But since I wouldn't be caught dead watching "The View" anyway, it doesn't really bother me beyond the instinctive wince that accompanies this sort of cultural stereotyping.
More importantly: Carlos Mencia is the antithesis of funny. The guy is a loud, obnoxious idiot with the wit of a boiled prawn and an ego so inflated that it's a miracle he didn't beat SpaceShipOne to the X-prize.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Maybe it would help if you defined racism for us eros, so we understand where you are coming from.
Racist (adj): motivated by or indicative of racial inequity or insensitivity.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Overtly sensitive. Not me, but most people. It's the new America. I have only one word that I am sensitive to, and even that depends on the context used. I have already explained the word, and will not repeat it here. Other than a couple things, we have almost no sensitivity at where I work. There is only one line that is not to be crossed. You can joke the other guy or girl (and most girls in the navy can be more obscene than the guys), but it is considered very ill taste to bring the others family members into it. Unless that person brings them into it themselves. Then it is only fair game for that time being.
Posted by DaisyMae (Member # 9722) on :
Webster says
Racism 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
By my interpretation of these definitions what Rosie said was not racist. Bad taste, maybe. *shrug* I'm not offended.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Three or four years ago in this forum I made what I thought was a humorously original use of the term "aboriginal," and got so jumped upon for it that I was forced to yield and apologize and vow never to use the term like that again.
Lisa, looks like you are right about "nekulturny." I had checked my earlier spelling by entering "nyet culturnya" in my web search engine, and came up with a couple of hits, so I thought that must be right. But now, on checking again, I see the hits came from a post I sent to the Analog discussion board asking if that was the right term. I guess it's not good form to quote myself. I did think that was the way Robert Heinlein spelled it.
For what it's worth, I just got 972 hits on Yahoo for "Ne kulturni."
Somehow I doubt that Russians would be offended, since I can't even get the proper form of the insult. How do you say in Russian, "Wadyoumean WE are uncultured?"
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I think a big part of the problem with this thread is that people seem to think that "offensive" is a necessary component of "racist" (adj).
From disctionary.com:
quote: rac·ism (rā'sĭz'əm) pronunciation n. 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
The Mirriam-Webster definition is almost exactly the same, so I won't bother to quote it.
Does she demonstrate 1) by her actions? I think we can all agree that she did not.
She clearly did not discriminate against any race with her comments. I can go get the definition of that word if there is any confusion. Did her actions show prejudice? Nope.
The only way you could claim she was being racist was if you think she knew that the phrase was one which Asians did not like, and was using it for this purpose.
Her apology might not have been ideal, but I think you guys aren't interpretting it how she meant it.
The "I will probably do the same next week" was (IMO) not referring to using "ching chong", it was referring to mistakenly offending a group of people because she was unaware of that the specific thing she was saying would be offensive.
I myself didn't know it was offensive, and in the extraordinarily unlikely event that I was to try and imitate people speaking Mandarin for the sake of comedy, I may have made the same mistake she did. (And I have no ill feelings toward Asians in general, any subgroup of Asians, or any specific Asian individuals )
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Will B: Indeed. "Racism" does not really mean "having nothing to do with race." But, by all means, anyone who wants to insist that it does, keep insisting.
And from Wikipedia,
quote: The term racism is sometimes used to refer to preference for one's own ethnic group (ethnocentrism),[2] fear of foreigners (xenophobia), views or preferences against interbreeding of the races (miscegenation),[3], and/or a generalization of a specific group of people (stereotype); regardless of any explicit belief in superiority or inferiority embedded within such views or preferences. Racism has been used in attempts to justify social discrimination, racial segregation and violence, including genocide. Politicians are known to practice race-baiting in an effort to win constituents.
The fact is that most people, consider races interchangeable with ethnic groups, possibly because there is no real scientific distinction between the two. Ethnocentrism is what Eros is primarily referring to, and what many people use as a key part of racism.
This is why you can't just walk down the street, go up to some Hispanics, say "Hey you stupid spiks", and then say you aren't a racist simply because Hispanics aren't a "real" race.
Addition: I might also note from Webster:
quote: Main Entry: 3race Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza 1 : a breeding stock of animals 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race> 3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits 4 obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition 5 : distinctive flavor, taste, or strength
Chinese people would clearly fit under 2 (as the Chinese race, a kind of people unified by their shared characteristics, including Chinese as a language), so if you're still fighting over semantics, then there you go.
[ December 15, 2006, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Mucus ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Does she demonstrate 1) by her actions? I think we can all agree that she did not.
She clearly did not discriminate against any race with her comments. I can go get the definition of that word if there is any confusion. Did her actions show prejudice? Nope.
The only way you could claim she was being racist was if you think she knew that the phrase was one which Asians did not like, and was using it for this purpose.
Wrong.
Xavier, we've established that her comment alone is not the problem: the problem is that she is unapologetic, even once it was pointed out to her that--regardless of what the dictionary says about racism--a large number of people were offended by her comment and considered it racist, and once it was pointed out to her, her response was to dismiss it as "playground" antics, and to assert she would likely continue behaving the same way.
The fact that she makes the comment, sees that it's being interpretted as racist, and essentially says "okay, but you offended asians are just being silly, I'm going to continue being a racist" is what makes her a racist.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
eros: Your definition is not what most people (or the dictinary) feel racist means.
Insensitivity isn't part of it, for me and for a lot of people here.
If you soften the definition of racist it will do more harm than good.
If what she said personally offended you, that's fine, but to say that it offended an entire race because it was insensitive crosses the line into P.C. B.S. in my opinion.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:This is why you can't just walk down the street, go up to some Hispanics, say "Hey you stupid spiks", and then say you aren't a racist simply because Hispanics aren't a "real" race.
And, of course, "Hispanic" means "A spanish speaking person", and is offensive to a lot of americans of Latin American ethnic origin, who generally prefer the term "Latino".
We had a thread on hatrack about the Oscars where someone referred to the presentation of the award by Selma Hayek and Penelope Cruz as a nice moment for Hispanics, which Chris Rock ruined with his jokes. Someone here threw a fit, claiming that the correct term was "Latino". Of course since Cruz is from Spain, this is completely wrong.
Even though the term "Hispanic" was the only word that fit both Cruz and Hayek, it was pretty much determined to have been a faux pas. There is no label for Spanish people and Latin Americans together which would not have offended at least someone.
So in order to be 100% PC, you really can't group those two peoples together in any way.
Another example would be my post above referring to "Asians" as an ethnic classification. I was uncomfortable using it, since Indians, Russians, and people of Middle Eastern origin (among others) have the same right to the term as the Chinese, Japanese, etc. Perhaps more so than the Japanese and Filipinos, considering they aren't on the continent.
But you can't call them "Orientals", because that has long ago been considered an offensive term only applicable to objects.
So there really isn't any PC term for that group of people, and so you can't really talk about that group with a label either. Since I'm sure some Chinese people's get offended when you group them with Japanese under any label, and vice versa, perhaps this is the point.
For another example, see the past conversations on what to call "Native Americans/American Indians".
Add it all together, in order to be completely PC, you can't really talk about ethnicity at all. Perhaps that's the point?
Like in Seinfeld, you need to say "I don't think we should be talking about this" and move on.
[ December 15, 2006, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: eros: Your definition is not what most people (or the dictinary) feel racist means.
Insensitivity isn't part of it, for me and for a lot of people here.
If you soften the definition of racist it will do more harm than good.
If what she said personally offended you, that's fine, but to say that it offended an entire race because it was insensitive crosses the line into P.C. B.S. in my opinion.
I had a really nice, livid response ready for this, but I'll summarize simply with: screw you, bud.
I'm leaving. This thread is making me angry enough to hurt someone, and I just got a call from our second largest distributor saying that half our products, which we've already taken hundreds (if not thousands) of orders for will not arrive tomorrow as planned, and will therefore not be able to ship in time for Christmas, so I'm not going to be able to continue this even as halfway-rationally. Sorry, folks.
Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
*nod nod*
Good luck with the order...sorry that all this had made you so mad.
*shrug*
Hope you have a better day.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: It's no different than "Why do Jews have big noses? Because air is free."
*giggle* I resemble that remark. Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
My hubby resembles it physically, but I resemble it fiscally.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: But you can't call them "Orientals", because that has long ago been considered an offensive term only applicable to objects.
More specifically it is a term that should only be applied to bland tasting ramen that only differs in taste from other bland tasting ramen in that "oriental ramen" has extra salt.
Korean Shin Ramen is the only way to go!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Given the dichotomy of who it is, and isn't okay to make fun of in this country, I have a hard time working up any anger over this.
Making fun of southerners? Alright. Make fun of Christians? Sure. Make fun of Jews? CERTAINLY NOT! Make fun of Men? Alright. Make fun of Women? MYSOGYNIST!!
So I don't really care. Ching chang ching chong? Whatever. Rosie doesn't hate Asians, is that seriously in question?
Further, I also have a hard time getting up in arms when people make fun of themselves and then turn around and chastise others for doing the same thing. How do you expect anyone to learn what is, and isn't okay when you aren't presenting them with a good personal example? Something either IS offensive, or it ISN'T, it shouldn't matter who is saying it.
So here's my new rule: If you can say it about yourself, I can say it about you.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Lyr: cool! so if I've ever once heard a black person make a racist joke toward blacks, I can go to town on all of them?
hmm... maybe not. Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.
Pix
PS: Q> How many enthics does it take to change a light bulb?
A> One to do it and a finite positive integer to do something stereotypical.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Lyr: cool! so if I've ever once heard a black person make a racist joke toward blacks, I can go to town on all of them?
hmm... maybe not. Sounds like an excuse for racism to me.
Depends, does the person telling the jokes hate black people? Do black people who tell black jokes hate black people? Is Lisa anti-Semitic?
Those aren't non sequitors, they're important questions. And sorry Lisa for singling you out, I have no idea who on this board is what race other than eros.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
I think that's generally a good rule, Lyrhawn, except that it is nearly impossible know what a person says about himself, unless you already know him particularly well.
[edit] And, darn, you posted before I refreshed the page.
--j_k
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes edit: about themselves, but other people can't, is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not. Saying that the 'race' or culture of the person telling the joke matters is...racist. It is defining the person not for who they are as an individual but what they represent as a 'race'.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
I completely agree with what erosomniac has said in this thread.
I first heard the "Chinese people choose their kids' names by throwing pots and pans" joke on the way back from a scholar's bowl competition. The guys on the team were using it to make fun of an Asian guy from the other team. That was an extremely uncomfortable ride back to school.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
But I can't think of any links that wouldn't violate the TOS.
:sigh:
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
quote: I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes but other people can't is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not. Saying that the 'race' or culture of the person telling the joke matters is...racist. It is defining the person not for who they are as an individual but what they represent as a 'race'.
I think the tone of a joke is important, though, especially if the joke is told about a minority by a person who belongs to the majority. Jokes, for example can either laugh at the stereotype or the person behind the stereotype, if that makes sense. I think that the same joke can be told in ways that are hurtful and ways that are not.
When I was studying stand up comedy one of the basic rules we were thought was that you should always find the ways of making yourself ridiculous instead of making others ridiculous simply because people like much more laughing at you than they like laughing at themselves. In a way it's also basic courtesy: at the dinner table it makes for much better atmosphere if I tell the funny story of how I embarrassed myself or even how my sister embarrassed herself (because I know her and I know she can take it) than if I tell the funny story of how the guy sitting next to me whom I barely know made a complete ass of himself.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes edit: about themselves, but other people can't, is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not. Saying that the 'race' or culture of the person telling the joke matters is...racist. It is defining the person not for who they are as an individual but what they represent as a 'race'.
I could see it in the light of...if you make fun of X characteristic about yourself, you're using self-depricating humor. Like, I don't know, if a skinny person jokes about having no rear end. But if someone else (and by this, I mean a stranger) were to say it, chances are the person would be offended and think that they were being made fun of in a malicious way.
-pH
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Clarification: I didn't say that the Chinese people aren't a race (they aren't, but close enough). I said that the Chinese language isn't a race.
Anyway, the definition of "racism" clears it up. Her remarks weren't racist. They were rude.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think her comment was ridiculous, but before it even hit the Breakfast at Tiffany's level of world awareness. Really? Everyone over in China is talking about Danny DeVito's appearance on a daytime talk show? I know she was exaggerating, but considering her previous behavior and comments and general state of self-righteous cluelessness, the hubris inherent in the comment means it can be dismissed completely.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:I think the logic that people within a 'race' or culture can make certain jokes edit: about themselves, but other people can't, is ridiculous. Either the joke is offensive or not.
Well said Stormy.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think it's the way I can complain about my family, or a friend. But if someone outside my family, or who isn't also friends with them, says the same thing, I'll jump down their throats for it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I think it's the way I can complain about my family, or a friend. But if someone outside my family, or who isn't also friends with them, says the same thing, I'll jump down their throats for it.
But that only works because you have an established relationship of kindship or at least friendship.
A black making fun of black people is given more leeway then a white person as he/she has grown up in the culture and certainly understands it. We assume people love their own culture as most people do. If we have a family member who we know has no love for his/her own family and frequently makes disparaging remarks about it, we are just as likely to tell them to shut up.
A stranger of another race has given nobody any reason to suspect that beyond the rude CHING CHING CHONG comment that she knows anything at all about the culture. Are we wrong to think its likely that she thinks less of the culture then she ought to?
Usually the reaction to a negative response is to say, "Hey man its cool, I've got Chinese friends." For some even that is not enough. Rosie didn't even give us that, she simply said in essence, "Well I didn't know that but I'm not changing, its who I am."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The difference being, if Margaret Cho had ripped on white people, there would have been zero outcry.
Anyone remember the dodgeball episode of South Park? It used Asian stereotypes and then proceded to make fun of white people. Asian stereoypes? Cringeworthy. White stereotypes? Don't even bat an eyelash.
[ December 16, 2006, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by jester987 (Member # 9977) on :
Okay, first off: why is anyone surprised that Rosie would finally say something arrogant, ignorant, and completely stupid?
She's done it before, but has always had the self-righteousness of 'standing behind a cause' to protect herself with. So the mask as come off, so what?
secondly, 'do blacks hate other blacks?' yes, in fact they do. In the south, that is. As long as the hated one is 'blacker' than the one doing the hating. (I've seen this)
Isn't that funny? In a sad, ironic sort of way?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by jester987: secondly, 'do blacks hate other blacks?' yes, in fact they do. In the south, that is. As long as the hated one is 'blacker' than the one doing the hating. (I've seen this)
Isn't that funny? In a sad, ironic sort of way?
*twitch*
....
-pH
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I point out again that this is a non-story. It has virtually no substance, and shouldn't even be discussed. You are welcome to discuss it, and in general, it may bring up some worthwhile knowledge regarding racism, but in this specific case, in my opinion, it is just hot air chasing hot air.
First to Rosie's appology, I think it was very much like when people were offended by the way Rosanne Barr sang the national anthem at a baseball game. Her response was, you hired Rosanne Barr, you can't complain when that is what you got.
Rosie was essentially saying that she is a loud obnoxious opinionated broad and you shouldn't complain when that is exactly what you get.
The next point, last night on 'Late Night with Conan O'Brien', Conan spoke briefly in mock!Italian, so I guess he is a racist too. Presumably the Mafia will be paying him a late night visit.
If you can't condemn all similar behavior then you have a hard case to make calling this one Rosie incident 'racist'. I hardly think the world will be up in arms because Conan was insensitive to Italians. Equally, I see no reason to be up in arms over an insignificant aspect of Rosie's statements especially when that outrage simply confirms the very point Rosie was making in the first place.
Final point, I will continue to see this as a complete non-story until some group that truly and fairly represents the Chinese minority comes forward and expresses their offense. Then if someone truly representing the Chinese people expresses offense, I think Rosie will offer a genuine apology.
And for the record, I don't see a multi-ethnic group of attention-seeking controversy-stirring story-fabricating journalist as the true representatives of the Chinese people.
Of course, once again, that's just one man's opinion.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
[Edited. --j_k]
[ December 21, 2006, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I would agree with the Blue Wizard. The topic should not be discussed. In fact, any post that mentions it should be ignored. Including this one.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
People should discuss it though, how else will they know? Perhaps people should simply find a way to respect all people...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ending centuries of predjudice apparently isn't done so "simply."
Though progress in the last century has been staggering, compared to the history of civilization.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
As people who have conversed on the internet for years, I'm sure all of us are aware of the difference that context makes to the meaning of a sentence.
I can say, "You're a giant butthole. Shut up." to a coworker, in person, because the look on my face tells them I'm joking, and that, in fact, by making the joke, I'm confirming that I do NOT think they are a giant butthole, and I do NOT think they should shut up.
Say the same thing in a post on Hatrack without ample emoticonization, and you've offended someone.
So, I'm sorry to say it, but one of the contexts that can change the meaning of a sentence is the ethnic grouping of the speaker and his audience. A black person can make a "black people" joke when talking to other black people, because they're all insiders in the group, making fun of themselves, and it's an obvious, generally-accepted fact that no harm was intended, and no one actually believes what is being said.
If a white person does the same thing in an ambiguous context, that softening effect on the joke doesn't happen as readily, and the joke has its full offensive impact.
Similarly, the history of tension or racist behavior underlying the relationship between two ethnic groups can have an impact, such that it is okay for the jokes to go one way and not the other.
There is nothing "unfair" about this. It's just the way human communication functions. If context were stripped from every statement, and we heard them all like robots, attaching the same meaning to the same words, no matter how or where or when or by whom they were spoken, then we would completely lose our sense of humor, and the intricacies of communication would be lost.
Ideally, we'll move into a future where all ethnic jokes are funny, because everyone is an "insider" with everyone else, and no one has any fear of racism anymore. But we won't get there by cracking down on jokes. It will be a happy side-effect of a host of other improvements.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And sorry Lisa for singling you out, I have no idea who on this board is what race other than eros.
Not a problem. I think I'll start a topic where people can describe themselves physically. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but the words a person uses to make themselves visible without a picture can be so much more interesting.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The difference being, if Margaret Cho had ripped on white people, there would have been zero outcry.
Anyone remember the dodgeball episode of South Park? It used Asian stereotypes and then proceded to make fun of white people. Asian stereoypes? Cringeworthy. White stereotypes? Don't even bat an eyelash.
That episode is amusing, especially when Chef said, "It's not nice to make fun of Americans of other ethnic backgrounds, just make fun of people from other countries." So that's what those guys were doing, also they were the Asian versions of that white dood who keeps making off-coloured Jewish and Black jokes and then the other guy says, "Dude! You're going to get us in trouble!"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"Oooo! I haven't seen an American die like that since Abraham Rincoln!"
"Dude, cut it out, you're going to get us into trouble again!"
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