tghere was this girl named laura and ya this is a faamilyt foruma dso i probly shoudlnt mention wut I did bbut I ap[oloigized and she said its no rpboem I was "drunk" and this happen Many times before but I digress I am NOT drunk! I AM SOBER!? WH!?! BECUAUSE IA M THE JUGGERNAUGHT!
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
This way, mate. Watch your step.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Blayne, while I do not envy you the headache you shall have when you wake up, you are hiiilarious when you're drunk. Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Friends don't let friends drink and post.
[ January 01, 2007, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged ]
Posted by fiddle_stix (Member # 9941) on :
wow... closest i could come to how i imagine you're feeling today
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Dude, if you're doing things to girls while drunk that you need to apologize for and can't post on a family forum, you need to not drink. And I know you said on sake that your friends "made" you drink, and I've got to tell you, no one can "make" you drink but yourself. You've got a mouth, you can use it to say no just as easy as you can use it to do a shot.
There's nothing wrong with drinking in moderation if you can control yourself to a socially acceptable level when you do it. If you can't, don't do it. Period.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
What ElJay said.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Okay if I got "hypothetically" drunk... now I am speaking in possibilities and hypotheticals in no way in reality will I ever admit to being drunk, but ya... assuming if I was drunk my morning was pretty okay, no headaches whatsoever my body felt really tense and really lose at the same time.
And yes I apologized to her several times she said not to worry about it, it happens to her all the time at parties.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
That doesn't make it okay, Blayne, it just means that you're not the only jackass in the world.
Posted by NicholasStewart (Member # 9781) on :
It's sometimes best to not drink at all.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'm not a jackass and I feel terrible over it, and I have apologized several times. It doesnt make it right I know.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Blayne, if it's happened before, it's a behavior you need to change. If this only happens when you drink, you may need to reconsider your choice to drink.
If you know you're prone to doing offensive things to girls when you drink and you still choose to drink when in the company of girls, I think you need to reconsider your "I'm not a jack***."
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
To go slightly off-topic, and to rehash something that's been said before: Please make some sort of effort when posting. It just seems like it's getting out of hand. There is nothing "endearing" about it.
What do 7 out of the last 8 threads you've created have in common?
I feel ssad =( HARRRY TURTLEDOVE WOOT! ^-^! "Not yet..." Okay, all Hatrack Games I call upon thy nimble thinbs Prooof that they should elect me as Prime Minister Presents!@ So whose in Hatrack on Xmas Day? Everyone must Spam Mr Card with Xmas greeings
----
Sorry if this comes across as rude. I just feel that it bears repeating.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
huh? I fail to see what ANY of those threads have in common aside from proving my prolificness.
Zeugma, this is the first time I have ever gotten drunk in my life, its an entirely new experiance for me and I am ashamed of my actions, assurances from my friends at the event notwithstanding (who assure me that nothing was wrong and was normal) I'll make sure if I go to these parties in the future to drink only the minimal amount of alchohol to be sociable no more no less.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
OOOOOH! Spelling errors! Now I get it! Ya... I'll aspire to improve my spelling in the future thats my new years resolution to Hatrack.
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: OOOOOH! Spelling errors! Now I get it! Ya... I'll aspire to improve my spelling in the future thats my new years resolution to Hatrack.
Rock on.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Please remember that, no matter how drunk you get, it's never funny, never "okay", never acceptable to say or do something rude to the people around you, especially girls.
Excuse me? Especially girls?
Zeugma I agree with you that it's never acceptable to do or say something rude to the people around you when drunk. But it is in no way more acceptable to be rude to the guys than it is to be rude to the girls.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
well you could say especialy girls because the system is much harsher in such circumstances so it'ld == common sense.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
quote: Good. Please remember that, no matter how drunk you get, it's never funny, never "okay", never acceptable to say or do something rude to the people around you, especially girls.Good. Please remember that, no matter how drunk you get, it's never funny, never "okay", never acceptable to say or do something rude to the people around you, especially girls.
Right. *bemused expression* It's probably just a slip, but slips do entertain and reveal something.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Yeah, especially girls. I'm willing to defend myself on this one.
So, defend yourself. Why especially girls?
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:a guy getting drunk and saying/doing inappropriate things to a girl at a party is worse than if he said/did inappropriate things to a guy.
Ok first off, this isn't what you originally said. Second off, the above statement is true. Because there is generally no sexual aspect to it when a guy does things to a guy -- if there is, IE one or both of the guys is gay -- then it's just as bad. However if there isn't then non-sexual harrassment drunken rudeness isn't as bad as sexual harrassment drunken rudeness.
However, your original statement included girls getting drunk and saying/doing inappropriate things to a guy at a party -- sexual harassment drunken rudeness. Which is not less than a guy doing the same. Your statement implied so. While I will grant you that it is less common for girls to drunkenly sexually harass guys, it is just as rude, just as offensive and just as unacceptable when they do.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Alcon, I agree that it's just as bad for a girl to sexually harrass a guy. I was referring above to Blayne's actions, as a male, not to people in general. Sorry I wasn't clear. [Smile]
Okie dokie then. Sorry I jumped on you in that case. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, that whole attitude where it's worse when a guy does it to a girl than when a girl does it to a guy. So I'm a little trigger happy when I see people nearing it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Blayne strikes me as the sort of fellow who needs to be explicitly told that it is way more unacceptable to get drunk and leer at a girl than it is to pick a fight with a guy or, say, put a lampshade on his head and start dancing on the tables.
Please tell me there's some previously unknown-to-me use of "leer" that involves something other than looking. Picking a fight with a guy while drunk is a very serious thing to do, and way worse than pretty much any mere looking that occurs in public.
Unless the "drunken advances" involve physical contact, they're not worse than starting a fight with someone.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: OOOOOH! Spelling errors! Now I get it! Ya... I'll aspire to improve my spelling in the future thats my new years resolution to Hatrack.
Sarcasm?
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: I don't find this amusing at all. Repugnant, yes, pathetic, yes, but amusing? No.
Seconded.
This is vomit.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: tghere was this girl named laura and ya this is a faamilyt foruma dso i probly shoudlnt mention wut I did bbut I ap[oloigized and she said its no rpboem I was "drunk" and this happen Many times before but I digress I am NOT drunk! I AM SOBER!? WH!?! BECUAUSE IA M THE JUGGERNAUGHT!
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I'll tell you, from a guy's perspective, it's no walk in the park to have a large, angry, drunken man start threatening you and pushing you around for no good reason. I'm sure it's bad news to have a guy's unwanted sexual advances, but I've been in a few situations where for a minute I feared for my life.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Sorry again, I'd understood "leer" to mean more than just looking, I was wrong. My mistake!
Whew.
quote:This could be because I'm female and can't understand what it's like to have a guy pick a fight with me, but it seems to me that, at least with a fight, both parties are on somewhat equal footing, able to defend themselves or, possibly, laugh it off? Or, at the very least, it seems to me like the "rules" of a drunken fight are relatively clear.
No, it's usually purposefully not an equal footing. Before I started lifting, when I could bench maybe 50 pounds, there were people at parties I was at that could max at 5-8 times that. As to the reactions of the onlookers, it's usually laughter, forming a ring to keep the victim from leaving, and possibly jumping in.
I'm not talking about two people who know each other getting upset and having a fight - or even, amongst some crowds, having a fight because their bored. I'm talking about a person looking for someone to beat up, largely because he can. It can start either with actual violence - pushing, holding against a wall, or actual punching - or it can start with intimidation - advancing to make the victim back up until he's cornered, or taking swings that purposefully miss, or dumping a beer on the victim's head - which will end in either a contrived excuse (you spilled your beer on me) or escalate into into violence.
It's amusing to most people at the party, it's not generally condemned, and there's little sympathy unless hospitalization is involved. Almost no one ever helps, and the attendees can be counted on to lie if authority becomes involved.
It's predation, pure and simply. And I know there's predation of women at parties - I'm specifically comparing non-physical sexual harassment to fighting.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I'll tell you, from a guy's perspective, it's no walk in the park to have a large, angry, drunken man start threatening you and pushing you around for no good reason. I'm sure it's bad news to have a guy's unwanted sexual advances, but I've been in a few situations where for a minute I feared for my life.
And as a girl, I've feared for my life and/or body for at least a minute about a third of the times inappropriate sexual advances have been made toward me. Two thirds of the time they're nothing, but that one third they have been menacing and it's scary when the person making a pass at you is bigger than you, and you don't know him or trust him, and you don't know if when you turn that corner and find yourself alone he's going to follow you and rape you and maybe otherwise hurt or kill you. Not that men can't be scared of drunks, too-- but to point out that sexual advances can be VERY scary, too.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
Frankly, Blayne, getting drunk doesn't make you a different person, or create attitudes that weren't there before. It just makes you lose your inhibitions. So this reflects pretty badly on you, and if you can't control it, do everyone in your vicinity a favour and don't get drunk.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
and no it is not sarcasm check the new years eve thread at sakeriver.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
In the few situations where I've been either directly threatened, or people I've been with have been threatened, and I've felt the need to stand up for them, the crowd has basically formed into spectators. These have been at bars, or at parties where I knew few people, so I didn't have any group to back me up.
Fortunately, in the parties I've been able to move myself and the other people out of the way before things escalated to truly dangerous levels, and at the bar, another drunk man jumped into the fight between me and the big guy, and then a bouncer took them both outside.
I've developed a keen awareness of my surroundings in places where drinking is involved. I understand that it can be much more dangerous for women, but it's of the same type, if not perhaps the same frequency of threat.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Angry with what? I apologized, I apologized to her several times, I do feel bad about it and in the future ill learn from my mistakes and drink less so I can control myself, Laura assured me shes fine with it, only surprised that I did something so out of character, and geuss what? I still feel terrible but now what? Why are YOU so angry? Did I do this to you? This was the FIRST time I have eveer gone out drinking and was "encouraged" to drink ALOT next time if there is one I'll learn from my mistakes. What do YOU honestly want now?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I haven't heard anything so spiteful in my what? 3 years at Hatrack? Your blowing this way out of proportion and I am not minimalizing its importance.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Without wanting to approve of people getting drunk and grabbing their friends' bits, it does seem to me that Zeugma is indeed blowing things just a little out of proportion.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Angry with what? I apologized, I apologized to her several times, I do feel bad about it and in the future ill learn from my mistakes and drink less so I can control myself, Laura assured me shes fine with it, only surprised that I did something so out of character, and geuss what? I still feel terrible but now what? Why are YOU so angry? Did I do this to you? This was the FIRST time I have eveer gone out drinking and was "encouraged" to drink ALOT next time if there is one I'll learn from my mistakes. What do YOU honestly want now?
Blayne, I think the problem here is that several different aspects of your behavior are adding up to make you seem much, much worse than I think you actually are.
1) You got drunk. You (I think? I don't read Sake) groped a girl you know and she didn't appreciate it.
2) You posted a thread about it while still obviously drunk.
3) You're dodging responsibility for your actions by alternating between blaming your inexperience with alcohol and pretending you weren't drunk. ("Okay if I got "hypothetically" drunk... now I am speaking in possibilities and hypotheticals in no way in reality will I ever admit to being drunk, but ya...")
4) Along those same lines, you're continually grasping for excuses to justify this to yourself and to us. You're not experienced with drinking, your friends made you drink, she said it was okay because it happens all the time, etc.
5) You're looking for the wrong reaction from this community. If you were relating this story to a bunch of average college students, the reactions would likely still be disapproving, but less so.
6) Despite your repeated assurances that you feel bad about what happened, you don't seem to be as sorry as the people here feel you should be. This is largely because of the responsibility dodging.
7) You haven't made any provisions for how you're going to prevent a repeat performance - at least, not that you've posted. All you've done is make excuses and defended yourself.
Personally, I'm waiting for you to admit that you were a jackass, say you will moderate your drinking (or not drink at all, preferably), and admit to yourself that what you did was not only totally inappropriate, it was a crime. Whether she has forgiven you or not is irrelevant; you need to take personal responsibility for what you've done, and that needs to be reflected in your behavior. I can't speak for the others in this thread, but that is what will make this (and you) closer to manageable in my mind.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
There is a large misunderstanding here.
1) She did/did not not appreciate it, she was "surprised" but not offended, not an excuse I know but please get the facts straight.
2) Because it was funny.
3) I did not intentionally try to pass on responsibility, if skype was still free ild call to better explain myself. I was simply stating a fact that goes with the bigger anectdote I am not using it to hide from responsibility.
4) I am not grasping for excuses.
5) I'm not really looking for any reaction, I consider the community to be friends and aquantinces so I posted an anectdote.
6) I am not dodging responsibility and without anyone actually seeing me face to face to verballly articulate my feelings on the matter it is probly indeed hard to gauge my feelings. But I assure to you that I am indeed sorry, that I am embarrassed, I feel terrible over the matter.
7) If you paid attention you would realize I infact did, if not here then on Sakeriver.
So yes I acted as a jackass, I know myself well enough to know that I am most definately NOT a jackass, I acted like one last evening and I am ashamed of it and I hope it never happens again. So I'll repeat yes I will make sure that in all future social events that if I do drink it will only be the minimum amount needed to be sociable no more no less because I find no real enjoyment in drinking.
I think whether or not its on the books as a crime is whats irrelevent consdiering it was inappropriate of me to have acted in such a way period.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:1) She did/did not not appreciate it, she was "surprised" but not offended, not an excuse I know but please get the facts straight.
Nitpicking.
quote:2) Because it was funny.
I disagree. Judging by their posts, many others disagree as well. More importantly, the fact that you find it funny bothers me.
quote:3) I did not intentionally try to pass on responsibility, if skype was still free ild call to better explain myself. I was simply stating a fact that goes with the bigger anectdote I am not using it to hide from responsibility.
Okay, I can chalk that one up to your generally scatterbrained style of posting.
quote:4) I am not grasping for excuses.
The point is that it seems to me like you are. You denying it isn't going to convince me otherwise. Again, a demonstration of accepting responsibility is what's needed here.
quote:5) I'm not really looking for any reaction, I consider the community to be friends and aquantinces so I posted an anectdote.
Okay.
quote:6) I am not dodging responsibility and without anyone actually seeing me face to face to verballly articulate my feelings on the matter it is probly indeed hard to gauge my feelings. But I assure to you that I am indeed sorry, that I am embarrassed, I feel terrible over the matter.
This is probably true, which is why I attempted in my previous post to show you how I'm reacting and why.
quote:7) If you paid attention you would realize I infact did, if not here then on Sakeriver.
I missed this post. I'm glad you're planning on moderating your drinking. As I mentioned before, though, I don't read Sake.
quote:So yes I acted as a jackass, I know myself well enough to know that I am most definately NOT a jackass
Thank you. To offer some advice, as someone who has done incredibly stupid things under the influence of alcohol or other drugs, make sure you remember the first part: you acted like a jackass. The alcohol was partly to blame, but you need to remember that what happened originated with you, and that it is up to you to not repeat your behavior again, alcohol or no.
quote:So I'll repeat yes I will make sure that in all future social events that if I do drink it will only be the minimum amount needed to be sociable no more no less because I find no real enjoyment in drinking.
This really bothers me, Blayne. If you need to be drinking alcohol at social events to be accepted, despite not enjoying drinking, it sounds like it's because of pressure from the people around you. If that's the case, you need to make sure you thoroughly explainto your friends that you do not like drinking, and that you do not want to do it.
If they don't understand that and stop pressuring you, you may need to reconsider going to events where drinking is a possibility. If that endangers your friendships, you may need to consider finding new friends. Pressure to drink or use any mind altering substance is something no one should have to put up with, and if you need to be doing it in order to feel like part of the atmosphere, that atmosphere is not for you.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Personally, I manage to be sociable without drinking at all. "I drink to be sociable" is just an excuse; if your friends indeed need you to drink to feel comfortable around you, it's time for some new friends.
You might also want to consider that "Jackass is as jackass does"; presumably, there are few jackasses who do not feel they "know themselves well enough to know they are not jackasses". After all, if they didn't, they'd change their behaviour. How do you tell the difference, then, between a jackass in denial and someone who just gets drunk once in a while and does stupid things? In fact, what is the difference?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:This really bothers me, Blayne. If you need to be drinking alcohol at social events to be accepted, despite not enjoying drinking, it sounds like it's because of pressure from the people around you. If that's the case, you need to make sure you thoroughly explainto your friends that you do not like drinking, and that you do not want to do it.
If they don't understand that and stop pressuring you, you may need to reconsider going to events where drinking is a possibility. If that endangers your friendships, you may need to consider finding new friends. Pressure to drink or use any mind altering substance is something no one should have to put up with, and if you need to be doing it in order to feel like part of the atmosphere, that atmosphere is not for you.
Amen. Tell it, brother, tell it good.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Ok Blayne, I wasn't going to read this whole thread or respond to it, but I'll throw a few anecdotes in:
What you did was wrong. Overall idiotic.
But we all make mistakes. Learn from it! I know you've said you will, and I believe you, but in all seriousness, I'm not coming down on you or trying to be condescending, I'm just telling you to know your limits. I don't think you're the type of guy who would normally grope a girl, so the fact that you did while drunk means that you are more prone to do things you wouldn't do (kind of the definition of drunk). So what is it next time? Theft? Assault? Sexual assault? Ruining your chances with a seriously great girl? It's just not worth it man.
So there ya go. The past has passed. Just learn from it.
And I'm not coming into this thread again, in case there are more virulent responses. .
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
I agree with Dr. Strangelove's pragmatic attitude. If the lady in question is not going to make a big deal out of it, then there is no issue, but do realize that this kind of action could cost you a lawsuit and a lot of trouble.
I like drinking myself, but only in moderation. I drink for a buzz, maybe a beer, or a half-glass of wine, but not to get sloshed or anything.
I've had friends who've gotten totally drunk. They stumbled around for a while, collapsed, vomited. They were ashamed later. Course I have friends who got drunk, had sex with random men/women, and feel great about it. It can be ok in the right context, but it obviously didn't work out for you. Drink because you want to, because it is your choice. Not cuz of peer pressure!
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think it should be emphasized that getting drunk doesn't not force you to do things that are foreign to you. It weakens inhibitions, but it doesn't alter your personality.
From the character Blayne has shown in his time here, I am not at all surprised that he would get drunk and grope a girl unwelcomely, because she WAS SO HOT. That's kind of who he is.
Don't get me wrong, the whole, don't get drunk if you can't handle it is good advice, but I think "Don't be that type of guy." might be important too.
[ January 02, 2007, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I have to wonder, why anyone would post this sort of thing at all? I guess I just don't understand the motivation to say, "Hey, look at this really rude, stupid thing I did."
Getting drunk and doing stupid things is bad in the first case. Bragging about it after just makes me question judgment even more.
Don't abuse alcohol.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
And the worst part is, he was probably so drunk that he doesn't even remember what boobies feel like.
/inappropriate
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Zeugma, I understand.
I think...
Hmm.
I think, as background, Blayne has a lot of good things going for him, and he doesn't always know that.
I also think he was wrong wrong wrong in what he did, in how he handled it, and in how he is viewing it now.
I think he has gotten slammed (both here and on sake) and I hope he will read those posts and think about them.
However, I don't think he's anywhere near the maggot status. And I don't think (I hope) anyone here defends the groping. I do think people (and girls especially) telling him what exactly (and why exactly) they think he did was wrong is a very, very good thing.
(And I'm a girl who has had my share of unwanted gropes and advances - but thankfully nothing more serious.)
Posted by Andrew W (Member # 4172) on :
I would like to step in here and risk censure by tangenting a little and suggesting that there is nothing inherently (and try to listen to the meaning I'm trying to express here with my limited knowledge of your personal interpretation of words, and don't condemn me for things I'm not trying to say) wrong with jokingly groping a girl - in certain circumstances - as will be explained.
In this case, even though he's said "she didn't take it badly", the impression I've got is that it wasn't acceptable.
However, the action is only as wrong, as the person on the receiving end feels it is - personally I've been on the receiving end of people's 'wandering hands' or other similar things, in a 'joke-y' way many times. Both guys and girls. These were all jokes, these all invaded my personal body space, all of them were however totally fine. Because I didn't mind. They were funny - or at least trying to be funny - from people I was good enough friends with/trusted them enough, that it didn't mattter. This situation would be exactly as possible if I were a girl.
Now if you were to say "Ah but in our society... blah, blah, blah, innappropriate, girls vulnerable, people often do it to them when it's not acceptable, thus in 99.9% of cases it's not the same" of course, I'd grant you that. But that's not really my point. The point is that theoretically it's possible that there could be no problem here, and if in this situation, she had not minded (and I do mean, actually not minding, as opposed to merely pretending that you don't mind to other people) then there would not have been a problem, even if Blayne felt embarrassed afterwards. But I feel that some people, due to our sexist society somehow feel that there are different rules for men and women, and that many people I know would think that it would never be ok, regardless of how the woman on the receiving end felt, yet this wouldn't apply to men, which is clearly sexist nonsense - that disregards the woman's autonomy to define her own social boundaries, and dictates them from above.
AW
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Let's say for a minute that this could be a "wandering hands" thing***!...
I think the thing is here Andrew that Blayne had never jokingly groped the girl in question, feels really bad about doing so, and would never have done so sober.
To me, this telegraphs that the girl in question is *not* happy about being groped in that way - and Blayne knows that.
*** - Look, I've had wandering hands from friends too. For me, that means a hand on the back, a hand on the arm. On the odd occasion, a hand on the lower back/venturing on the bum (and quickly removed!). Any guy who gropes my breasts (and that is what we are talking about) goes way beyond that. And yeah, I would think any girl who goes and gropes the genitalia of a guy would be equally out of line.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:from people I was good enough friends with/trusted them enough, that it didn't mattter.
I think this is the key difference. I still think it's an immature thing to do/ find funny, but in certain circumstances I think you're right, it can be a harmless thing between close friends. As you've already stated, this is not the case with Blayne.
Further, even amoung close friends I think it's a dangerous place to go. A few years ago, my group of friends (girls and guys) thought it was funny to grab each other's butts. It was a silly thing between close friends and was harmless. But it did something very dangerous- it changed the bar of what was acceptable. It led to a lot of things that were inappropriate and eventually friendships that had started in grade school ended. I don't think every person is going to take that priviledge to bad places, but I think the societal boundries that exist are there for a reason. Once you've made it ok for your friends to do something, it's hard to take it back without hurt feelings and it's easy for things to get out of hand.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:So Andrew, if a man gets wasted and gropes 10 random women at a party, and 8 were disgusted and humiliated, while 2 didn't care, does that mean it was an acceptable thing for him to do 2 out of the 10 times?
My point being, does the girl's reaction matter if the guy was going to grope her regardless of how she felt about it?
I'd say the reaction matters at least as much as the intent. I'd also say you've severely misunderstood Andrew's post if that's what you took out of it.
He's not excusing Blayne (and I haven't seen anyone who is).
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
You've misunderstood him because the specific scenario you've concocted in no way resembles the specific exception he outlined. I really can't restate it any clearer than he already stated it, so I'll just direct you back to what he actually said.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
No, there seems to be more than that that you're not understanding. And since I've seen every indication that you're intelligent enough to read and grasp the point I can only assume that you're purposefully ignoring it so you can continue on with your righteous indignation.
I won't interrupt any more.
Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
I completely understand your reaction Zeugma and I admire your honest posts.
I agree with you that the girls reaction doesn't make a difference. Not morally. The only thing is, a crime is a crime as soon as it is reported as such, if you let it pass there is no such thing as a crime. I do think it's a shame she reacted that way, but very understandable. When it happened to me once, when I ordered some drinks for me and my friends at the bar and one of the guys standing there grabbed my bum, I turned around and smashed the contents of a glas of beer in his face. Then he really wanted to come at me but some other people prevented him. That was a scary moment. So yes, the easy way out for a girl is of course to either ignore it or call it 'no big deal'. In fact, what else can you do? Report it as a crime? Well, I guess you should. What I did wasn't right either. Same as when someone starts a fight with you. If you hit back you're both wrong. You should just take the blow and report it.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I take that to mean that, even though Blayne groped her knowing that it was wrong, and that he didn't have her permission, that there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if turned out she didn't mind. Which is why I responded as I did.
The point AW made and you seem to be missing is that there are situations--and not all of them involve a significant other--where groping is not offensive and does not cross any lines, and is on the teasing/joking end of the spectrum for both parties, as opposed to the harassment/rape end of the spectrum for either or both people. It's the same thing as people using kisses as greetings, playfully smacking each others' butts, etc., just a different degree.
quote: I do think it's a shame she reacted that way, but very understandable. When it happened to me once, when I ordered some drinks for me and my friends at the bar and one of the guys standing there grabbed my bum, I turned around and smashed the contents of a glas of beer in his face. Then he really wanted to come at me but some other people prevented him. That was a scary moment. So yes, the easy way out for a girl is of course to either ignore it or call it 'no big deal'. In fact, what else can you do? Report it as a crime? Well, I guess you should. What I did wasn't right either. Same as when someone starts a fight with you. If you hit back you're both wrong. You should just take the blow and report it.
Blayne, take note of what ginette says above, because it's very important: just because the girl says it's okay doesn't mean she thinks it is. It's possible--perhaps even probable--that she's only saying that to avoid confrontation and, ultimately, to move past it as quickly as possible.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
AW, are you talking about goosing?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I don't think she's missing that point. From what I can tell, Zeguma is acknowledging that these situations exist, but is stating that certain aspects of this one preclude it from being one of those.
Specifically, as she said in her last post:
quote:I take that to mean that, even though Blayne groped her knowing that it was wrong, and that he didn't have her permission, that there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if turned out she didn't mind.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Reminds me of last night at the bar.
*I'm just getting another beer* Girl: "Did you grab my butt?" Me: "Nope" Girl: "Oh, ok" *Confused look on face. Still trying to figure out who dun it*
To tell the truth, with how we were dancing to some of the music...I don't think she would have minded if I did.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
eros, she does thinks its ok and I base this on alot more evidence then is currently availiable for your scruntity, but it changes nothing from my POV, I did something that I never would have considered doing in any normal situation which I take personally to have been inapropriate(sp?). And as such will take measures to make sure I don't do anything as such again. As such I am looking at this thread very askansly now as I do not like the fact that motives are being attributed to me that is not the case.
She did not mind it period, she was only surprised that I did something OOC for me and from what I can groggily remember of the moment in question was laughing a little. And while the folloing ppl off of a bridge example comes to mind other people were doing it to and far more brazenly then me, it doesnt make what I did right or appriobiate since I didnt have expressed permission, and what I did was wrong but I am nonetheless very disliking the tone currently being endorsed here.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I take that to mean that, even though Blayne groped her knowing that it was wrong, and that he didn't have her permission, that there wouldn't be anything wrong with it if turned out she didn't mind. Which is why I responded as I did.
Okay, I see what you're saying. I took that to mean that if they really were friends and he really did do it jokingly and they really both laughed about it then it actually could be not a Big Deal. Even if he felt bad about it the next day.
I've done stupid things while drunk to friends of mine that were meant to be funny, and, in fact, were funny. And the friend thought so, too. But I was still embarassed because I overstepped my own social boundaries for the Funny, which wasn't something I'd typically do.
I do NOT think that that was the case with Blayne here, but I think that's the hypothetical that AW laid out. And I think it holds. I have female friends who routinely grab my ass as a form of greeting, and it's not a big deal to me or to them -- it's a reverse gender stereotyping joke. So, since it's happened to me a lot I agree that it is possible to 'grope' someone of the opposite sex who is not your significant other without giving offense, and I don't think that necessarily changes even if you feel embarassed about it later. I don't think AW was claiming that about this situation, and I agree with Squicky about certain aspects of this situation precluding it from being an exception such as those laid out above.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
quote: if the situation had been completely different?
Because the discussion has moved to other areas as well. It is not all about what he did was wrong (which it was), but has also delved into when it can be not so wrong (or accepted).
By the way, I only take his asian comment to be that he has a fetish for asian girls. Nothing really wrong with that. We all have a fetish of some sort. And technically speaking, I have a fetish for asian girls as well. It's just not an over riding factor.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Zeugma in todays world where anime and martial arts films are increasingly popular and such and such I do not think I need to explain or defend myself when I as a white boy considers a girl of the asian pursiasion as being far more attractive then a caucasion woman take your indignation elsewhere.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: It occurs to me that I may not be using the correct terms here. Where is the line drawn between "molestation" and "assault"? If the girl were to press charges (and oh how I wish she would), what would it be filed under?
I take this as being a threat.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
That's just silly. Zeugma can't press charges against you; you haven't done anything to her. And she doesn't know the girl who was involved in this thing, so she can't try and persuade her to press charges either.
Not to mention if your account of the aftermath is at all truthful it sounds like there's no chance that the girl would do something like that.
I don't think being combative is going to win you any sympathy, dude.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Of course people can touch and grab each other in ways that are not unwanted. I think it's weird for men and women who are just friends to grab each other's genitalia as a joke, but yeah, of course that's fine. That's also totally irrelevant to what happened in this case.
Of course it's irrelevant. AW is aware of this:
quote:I would like to step in here and risk censure by tangenting a little and suggesting that there is nothing inherently (and try to listen to the meaning I'm trying to express here with my limited knowledge of your personal interpretation of words, and don't condemn me for things I'm not trying to say) wrong with jokingly groping a girl - in certain circumstances - as will be explained.
In this case, even though he's said "she didn't take it badly", the impression I've got is that it wasn't acceptable.
It doesn't sound like AW's post was directed at Blayne at all. Why are you reading it as though it was?
quote:It was sexual assault. Pointing out that there are other types of situations that are not sexual assault is irrelevant and, IMO, further confuses an already complicated issue.
The laws regarding sexual assault are extraordinarily complicated; should Blayne avoid learning as much as possible about what constitutes assault just because his personal issue is already complicated?
All AW's post really amounts to is clarification.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Zeugma: It occurs to me that I may not be using the correct terms here. Where is the line drawn between "molestation" and "assault"? If the girl were to press charges (and oh how I wish she would), what would it be filed under?
I take this as being a threat.
Well, Blayne, I can't blame Zeugma any on this one. I see both parties involved have more or less managed to smooth things over. You feel very apologetic about it, and she said it was ok. For whatever odd reason that she has. I'm not backing you up on what you did, just making a statement.
However, I am the big brother of someone who had a similar incedent a few years back. You want to know a threat? Try what that kid had. I almost had plane tickets to fly back home to "say hello" to this boy, when my dad called and had to calm me down over it. I guess if they were ok to let bygones be bygones then I would have to be as well.
What you really need to do on this is to take a close look at your actions and see how you can prevent this action from happening again. For me, when I go and get drunk at a bar, I walk home. There is no need to drive, and I am not going to quit drinking. Especially when I am not even a heavy drinker....anymore. I learned my lesson a few years back.
Whatever the case may be, NEVER try to learn things the hard way. Learn from what mistakes you have already made, and then from others who made even bigger ones.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I know she cant but I take it as a very threatening remark from another poster, I'ld take it as being similar to saying she wish I'ld get blown up in a bus by a terrorist. (Which is probly how it will happen according to my dreams but thats irrelevent)
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: eros, she does thinks its ok and I base this on alot more evidence then is currently availiable for your scruntity, but it changes nothing from my POV, I did something that I never would have considered doing in any normal situation which I take personally to have been inapropriate(sp?). And as such will take measures to make sure I don't do anything as such again.
You obviously have more information available to you than we do, but don't write off the opinions of the people here just because we're being direct and aren't directly involved in the situation. There are others, including myself and at least two others who have posted in this thread, who have done stupid, mean, irresponsible or even criminal things while drunk. Learn from our mistakes.
quote:As such I am looking at this thread very askansly now as I do not like the fact that motives are being attributed to me that is not the case.
Don't take this as a jab at your typing/spelling/grammar, but I don't understand what you're saying here becase I don't know what "askansly" is supposed to be.
quote:She did not mind it period, she was only surprised that I did something OOC for me and from what I can groggily remember of the moment in question was laughing a little. And while the folloing ppl off of a bridge example comes to mind other people were doing it to and far more brazenly then me, it doesnt make what I did right or appriobiate since I didnt have expressed permission, and what I did was wrong but I am nonetheless very disliking the tone currently being endorsed here.
This is what I was talking about when I said you expected a different response than this community is prepared to give. You've mentioned several times that you thought parts of this were funny; while that may be true in isolated incidents, as a reader of this story my mind zeroes in completely on one thing only: what you did to this girl.
I'm not sure what responses you expected, Blayne, if anger, chiding and advice didn't fit.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: I know she cant but I take it as a very threatening remark from another poster, I'ld take it as being similar to saying she wish I'ld get blown up in a bus by a terrorist. (Which is probly how it will happen according to my dreams but thats irrelevent)
You shouldn't take it that way, since one is an illegal act that ends your life, and Zeugma's desire to see you prosecuted is the desire for due process for someone who broke the law.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
They're kinda similar, though, since in both cases they're wishes. A wish isn't the same as a threat, Blayne.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Someone who allegedly broke the law. What law, anyway? What are the precise details and so forth? Hmm... I will start a thread on this; it seems important enough.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The only thing that I considered funny was my absolute insistence that I was not drunk when quite obviously I was. That was it that was all nothing else was.
[ January 02, 2007, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Blayne Bradley ]
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
*winces*
Blayne, your post, your resolution. Just trying to help before the spelling and sentence structure nazis get you.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
which one? Remember I only made a res for spelling, grammar will wait until 2008 and coherency when China wins the Olympics.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
"obsolute", dear.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Maybe that was an intentional combination of absolute and obsolete? Not exactly a ginormous chance of that, but who knows....
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
oooooh... i looked at it several times and it didnt occur to me it was misspelt. Absolute it is then.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Don't take this as a jab at your typing/spelling/grammar, but I don't understand what you're saying here becase I don't know what "askansly" is supposed to be.
*Uses mutant Blayne-insight powers*
I believe it is 'askance', with a mis-spelling plus a redundant adverb-formation. For your information, Blayne, 'askance', although an adverb, has already gotten its ending. Which, incidentally, is why you cannot separate grammar from spelling; they are intertwined.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Hey, that was my guess, too! Sweet.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
While I don't agree with what Blayne did, we don't know all the details, so I don't think we're in a position to make final judgment. With that in mind, I think it's more appropriate to wish that Blayne learn from this mistake, realize the implications and make a positive change, rather than wishing prison on him for a stupid, drunken mistake.
Justice ought to be fair, in my mind. I don't see how justice would be served by wishing a criminal prosecution upon someone who made a stupid mistake that didn't seem to bother the victim all that much.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: It's amusing to most people at the party, it's not generally condemned, and there's little sympathy unless hospitalization is involved. Almost no one ever helps, and the attendees can be counted on to lie if authority becomes involved.
It's predation, pure and simply. And I know there's predation of women at parties - I'm specifically comparing non-physical sexual harassment to fighting.
You went to the wrong kinds of parties Dag. I mean, those frat bashes don't sound like your style! They're certainly not mine, and I haven't been in an uncomfortable part situation since probably my freshman year at college. Now I get together with friends.
That's what you need Blayne... get together with people who you like and who *actually* like you back.
Edit: I'll go one further and add that I've been in Blayne's situation, pretty much. The difference was that I was a young 17 year old and I was being pressured by older people who were *NOT* my friends, but whom my 17 year old brain didn't have the wherewithal to avoid. These are people who are, 5+ years hence, still in the same place they were then, or worse in rehab for drug addiction or in prison for one thing or another. They are people who stayed where we grew up because they couldn't recognize anything better in themselves. I cynically think now that they recognized something in me that was going to get me away from that life, and they didn't like it.
A girl I grew up around but didn't know very well was serving coffee at the local cafe around thanksgiving. She asked me what I was up to, and when I told her what I was doing, she nodded and said "I always knew you'd get out and get away and do something." The people I grew up with, utterly cruel children some of them, has spent some portion of their childhoods mocking me and tearing me down and everything else that comes with being a kid and depending on other people for approval. I get out and I'm a hero all of a sudden, for being the same person I was when they tortured me. Trust me, I know what this group of people is or I can imagine them very clearly. If they're anything like the awful people I've known in my life, then they'll never let you grow, never let you dream, and always tear you down and try to keep you the way you are for ever.
"Don't ever change" is a curse, I would never wish it on you, change is a very very good thing much of the time. Every time you have to exist in a new environment, make new friends and build a new peer group, you get closer to the people you should be friends with, and those are the ones right for you.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
closest i could come to how i imagine you're feeling today
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Sorry I jumped on you in that case. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, that whole attitude where it's worse when a guy does it to a girl than when a girl does it to a guy. So I'm a little trigger happy when I see people nearing it.
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)