I saw the OLPC at the Consumer Electronics Show and was impressed by how much technology they were able to put together so inexpensively.
The plan is to sell these to 3rd-world governments for distribution to children. The thing has WiFi and a browser.
How long will remote cultures last if we parade our values via the Internet in front of their children?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
quote:
How long will remote cultures last if we parade our values via the Internet in front of their children?
The odd thing is, I don't really know how to respond to this.
Social darwinism, anyone?
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery: I saw the OLPC at the Consumer Electronics Show and was impressed by how much technology they were able to put together so inexpensively.
The plan is to sell these to 3rd-world governments for distribution to children. The thing has WiFi and a browser.
How long will remote cultures last if we parade our values via the Internet in front of their children?
So you want to deny children access to technology so that their culture can be preserved? Why not let them decide?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
They'll be able to parade their values around in front of us, too.
-pH
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Avatar300: Why not let them decide?
Why not let their parents decide?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
What makes you think their parents won't have a say in it once the things get home?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Let the parents make a fully-informed decision. Tell them that the most popular information on the web right now is photos of Britney without panties.
Of course just telling the parents what to expect will plant the seeds of their culture's destruction.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: What makes you think their parents won't have a say in it once the things get home?
Does Suzanne Somers ask the parent's permission when she feeds those children?
The intent of any do-this-to-the-children campaign is clearly to bypass the evil parents.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Look there is NOTHING I can think of that does not have some identifiable draw back.
Lets give food to the starving! Well now they are all lazy good for nothings.
Lets educate the ignorant! The Al Qaeda plane highjackers were all educated in Europe!
All you can do is estimate the benefit of giving all these children laptops, minimize the problems with doing so (allowing their parents to choose, I think, helps a bit) and then decide if its a good idea.
I personally think unifying the human race through the medium of technology is a very admirable goal. Enabling people to exchange ideas and information has a higher potential for good then it does for ill IMO. Give the kids the laptops as long as their parents are ok with it. Eventually parents who said no will be able to see the benefit of having one from the parents who said yes and naturally conclude that accepting one is a good idea.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
You don't think that Britney without panties isn't worth study, care, and love? What is the world coming to!
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Enabling people to exchange ideas and information has a higher potential for good than it does for ill IMO.
Even when there is solid proof that at least 90 percent of that information is porn?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Yes. This is the opportunity to expand their knowledge of sex, and to provide them with learning opportunities that will psychoactivly diversify their limited experience.
They probably do not know about the beautiful love of an Asian, or that of a native Irish-man. This is their chance to expand. As a firm proponent of affirmative action, I say this is the time to eradicate prejudice at the roots with racially diverse and balanced porn.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
You could listen to pop music and still preserve your tradition culture. Heck, after stuffing themselves silly with Britney and McDs maybe they'd be happy to go back to traditional stuff. Or make pop music with traditional elements. Now that would be cool.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Enabling people to exchange ideas and information has a higher potential for good than it does for ill IMO.
Even when there is solid proof that at least 90 percent of that information is porn?
Doesn't matter. You are not the arbiter of what information is relevant, or who is allowed access to it. Nor do you decide how people live their lives, and if they wish to make a change they will.
What, do you think American culture is 100% free of foreign influence?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
The 3rd world isn't ready for our filth. They need to build up to it. It's like sending a kid from Catholic school to Vegas for the weekend.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
No. I think the vast majority of these laptops will be destroyed post haste by people who don't understand them or don't appriciate them as they are given to them for free.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Avatar300: You are not the arbiter of what information is relevant, or who is allowed access to it.
Then nobody is.
Better to do nothing than the wrong thing.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
my problem with this is that I don't know that it'll do any good. What good are a bunch of cheap wifi-enabled laptops in countries where the majority of the population lives without plumbing, electricity, internet... I guess if they target only urban centers the computers will be more usable, but despite a high level of poverty in those areas as well those are the sectors that already have a much better chance at development without this kind of aid.
I would love for these countries to be at the point where this will actually enable access to the internet etc as it should help a great deal in educating the world. Heck, if everyone in the world just had access to wikipedia I think it would be a huge step forward, and I'm not even a die-hard fan of wikipedia.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery:
quote:Originally posted by Avatar300: You are not the arbiter of what information is relevant, or who is allowed access to it.
Then nobody is.
Better to do nothing than the wrong thing.
Am I to understand then that you would be in favor of rolling back technology specifically the internet if it could be done?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery: Better to do nothing than the wrong thing.
I cannot imagine any human being who seriously lives by this mantra. I seriously doubt you do, or even believe you do.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Wait ... are people under the impression that foreigners are not already inundated with American products and culture? How is this program going to make a difference?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: in favor of rolling back technology specifically the internet if it could be done?
We grew as the technology grew. It did not just fall in our laps. I think that's okay.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I don't know about the moral or social reasoning, but its a waste of money better spent trying to improve basics - like food, clothing, and housing. As much as laptops cost, the money could go toward other things far more important when you are at the absolute bottom of the poverty line. My guess is the kids and parents would end up selling them, probably after more than half are destroyed.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Let them have it and do what they will with it. It's their choice to adopt what they want of the rest of world culture and also put their own out there for us to peruse.
It's part of globalization. We don't get to decide who lives in a vacuum. And there are no human zoos. We don't get to decide to deny technology to a group just because we think their culture is nifty and we'd prefer it if they lived in third world please, so we can avail ourselves of their uniqueness. That's far more immoral than anything the internet will do to them. We're not gods, we don't get to decide for them.
Occasional -
I doubt you'd see any of the things destroyed, well maybe not ANY, but not MANY. At the very least people would sell them, or they'd sit idle. But I think enough people recognize the value of these things, and they'd find a way to take advantage of them, even if it's something as simple as checking the nearest four villages to see who has the cheapest price on food.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:checking the nearest four villages to see who has the cheapest price on food.
Sorry, but this made me laugh.
What makes you think you'd find food prices on the internet in a third world country? Who can afford to host their own site? Heck, how would they access it to set it up and maintain it? And why would they care?
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: I don't know about the moral or social reasoning, but its a waste of money better spent trying to improve basics - like food, clothing, and housing. As much as laptops cost, the money could go toward other things far more important when you are at the absolute bottom of the poverty line. My guess is the kids and parents would end up selling them, probably after more than half are destroyed.
I don't know about that. These represent an amazing source of information and communication. Food, clothing, and housing are great, and are certainly needed for basic survival. They don't do much, however, to improve the situation of people in poverty. Communication and knowledge, however, can do a lot to help people improve their situation. This is the whole point of the program, giving people the tools to improve their own lives.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Quid -
Studies and experiments on the use of the internet in the third world have shown that this is exactly the kind of thing they DO use it for.
There are TONS of free places they could post prices. The advantage being the person with the lowest price will sell the most food if everyone around KNOWS you have the lowest price, and people will get cheaper food. They care because they want to feed their family for cheap, the sellers care because they want to sell their items and also have an idea for what the going rate is. Maybe they're selling below the going rate, or above it, and they can adjust.
Combine it with microloans to help establish the "market" and educate people on how to access it and you've just created a very, very cheap high tech market in a third world country for the benefit of all.
I know it SOUNDS odd, but it works. And it's no more odd than giving away computers to people who don't have stable governments or steady access to food.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
I'm not convinced laptops or the internet means better education to a kid that just wants to have food in their bellies and a clean, safe place to live. Great, they've got computers, but not safe drinking water, or mattresses, or food not contaminated with water, etc. Dumb idea.
I don't even think it's a good idea for US children to all have laptops.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't know, I saw proof in another thread that children and laptops pretty much mean a guaranteed route to education. Education = money in the third world (and really, EVERYWHERE). What they don't know keeps them in their current situation.
I think it's a good idea on paper, I'm skeptical on how it'll be pulled off. As of now I'd like to see trials done.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
while in principle I'm in favor of this (once the more basic living necessities have been addressed) I do see what some people are trying to say about thrusting technology on unready cultures.
I've long been a believer that introducing technology too fast to developing cultures can be a terrible thing. Just look at what's happened in Africa (and other areas) where cultures that were still at the point of petty tribal warfare suddenly had access to assault rifles and their little squabbles turned from clashes killing a dozen or so to genocides killing tens of thousands...
hopefully the internet is more benign and helpful, but there's also dangerous stuff out there (both socially and tactically). Porn is what kept popping up here, but what about when those same tribal conflicts start involving more and more home-made bombs and the like?
Just because something is good for us doesn't mean it's going to have the same effects for people of drastically different cultures/living situations. But like I said, I'm potentially for making this technology more available to developing nations eventually, but there certainly is some rationale for being wary of it as well.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery:
quote:Originally posted by Avatar300: You are not the arbiter of what information is relevant, or who is allowed access to it.
Then nobody is.
Agreed.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Grimace -
I'm pretty sure the US doesn't enforce the Prime Directive. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
In reality, I can't find the prices of food or anything else for Arpico, the largest department store chain in the country that actually has bar code readers in their store. They even have A/C and fixed prices for their goods. They're modern. Singer has a website with prices, and they're the only local store I've found that does that.
Heck, the government is on the internet, and they don't even update their own information. A page on immigration & visas has info on it from a bill that was going through parliament four years ago but didn't pass as the government changed. Most other departments have very little or what's there is never updated. They don't care. They like obfuscating information. They like keeping it vague and not understood. Then they can charge bribes all they want to do what they should be doing anyway.
Back to produce. Most produce shops don't have electricity. They're stands at the side of the road, constructed out of used pieces of wood shoddily put together to support the produce. Flies swarm in the heat. The shops vary the price according to the person who's doing the shopping. Someone like me would pay up to 10x what everyone else pays. Someone like my mother in law gets a fair price - she's a local, a regular, and is excellent at bargaining. She has a harder time getting a fair price at shops she hasn't been to before if she takes me with her.
Most places here do not have fixed prices. Most places try to get the highest price they can, and WILL try to gouge anyone who looks foreign or wealthy. Pricing based on skin color and social & economic status is the way of life here, and it's a game to see who can gouge the most.
You're talking about a complete overhaul of the entire culture.
It also makes me wonder, if it did happen like you say it does, what else in the culture would change?
As of now, this country doesn't have safe drinking water - even in Colombo, the largest city, all water has to be boiled. Less than 2/3 of the population has electricity. Many people live in huts 4x4 to 8x8', perhaps lining the railroad tracks so close they could stick their hand out the door and touch a passing train, dirt floor, scrap wood walls (when there are walls), corrugated metal roofs. No running water at these huts - they share a communal water pipe which they even bathe at.
Consider that this country already has pretty good education compared to elsewhere in the region with a high literacy rate of over 90%. We need more post-secondary institutions with free or cheap education, granted - the existing government ones that are free have 1000 students competing for the same seat.
I think it's a bit more complex than simply providing computers to cure everything. You've also, in this country at any rate, stop the war. That's what's really killing the country. That, and get rid of the corruption, which is also killing the country, but then, it's the corruption which is causing the war IMNSHO.
I'm skeptical.
I'm not saying that computers wouldn't be good. I'm saying that I don't think it would necessarily provide the results claimed, or even in the time frame claimed. I think it's also likely to have a lot more consequences than anyone can foresee at this point. Some would be good, I think, but others? Not so much.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery:
quote:Originally posted by Avatar300: You are not the arbiter of what information is relevant, or who is allowed access to it.
Then nobody is.
Better to do nothing than the wrong thing.
Doing nothing is WORSE than doing the wrong thing, usually.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:The 3rd world isn't ready for our filth. They need to build up to it. It's like sending a kid from Catholic school to Vegas for the weekend.
That's kind of how I feel about it. My imagination can't cope with all of the negative externalities, but on the other hand, the benefits are enormous.
I guess I'd like us to get our house in order before we start Fed-Exing free porn all over the world.
quote: Just because something is good for us doesn't mean it's going to have the same effects for people of drastically different cultures/living situations.
I don't even know if that stuff is good for us.
quote: They'll be able to parade their values around in front of us, too.
Are we giving them web cams and sound equipment? ___________________________________
I don't know the answer. I don't think that the internet necessarily makes people better, but the proliferation of information does exert a muscular effect on people's lives. To be honest, I haven't travelled the world enough to weigh in on this subject intelligently. The families and communities who'd be harmed may be so small in number and suspicous in moral character that it may not matter. I mean, you aren't going to be forcing them on the Amish, are we? _________
I'd rather we build schools, is all, at least with schools, there is a responsible human mind guiding the educational process.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Quid -
Well, as for electricity, if they have laptops, I think we have to assume they've got electricity, otherwise the entire argument is a moot point no? If they can't recharge the things, there's really no point in discussing their usefulness.
Second, while I don't at ALL claim to be an authority on third world intra village trade, I think it's fair to say that Africa is different from Sri Lanka, hell, I think it's fair to say most of Africa isn't necessarily like the rest of Africa.
The studies I've seen on the uses of laptops for education were all done in poor sections of India with astonishing results. Examples of using the internet for business were in Africa. I'll look for the sources later, but I don't know if the Africa one was even online.
On a separate note: Porn
Let's look just at Africa for the moment. We're talking about people who've lived through civil wars where rape was the norm, rather than the exception, where people live in one room huts, with nowhere to go for privacy, where literally with nothing else to do, people have sex just to kill time, and no, that isn't flippant, I've read reports that list idle time as a problem with the spread of HIV. People there have sex just for the heck of it and don't think about reprecussions.
Everyone so worried about American porn invading the naive sensibilities of the third world is I think affecting too much of a paternalistic approach. They aren't children, we aren't their parents.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:if they have laptops, I think we have to assume they've got electricity, otherwise the entire argument is a moot point no?
The laptops are powered by a hand crank, IIRC, and have a wireless network range of several miles. They're designed to operate in villages which could be many miles from the nearest outlet.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So one would assume that the shopkeeper with no electricity has just as fully functional a laptop as the poor villager down the road with no electricity correct? And the shopkeeper in the next village over?
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I see 2 issues here: children, and 3rd-world.
When I was in Eritrea, the people there who used Internet (at Internet cafes) were mad for it. They'd have to be, to put up with the maddening download times; their country hadn't supplied enough bandwidth for the inevitable explosion of interest. If they'd had wi-fi that worked, they'd have thought they'd died and gone to heaven.
From what I have heard, Internet has really taken off in Ethiopian cities, too.
I don't know much about keeping children away from rough sites, since I don't have any kids. But don't worry about whether the 3rd world will find a use for it. They already love it.
They already decide what their priorities are, to whatever degree they can; we don't need to decide it for them. That said, if someone is considering where to send charitable dollars...I'd go with vaccines, like the Gates Foundation. A lot of bang for the buck in preventing suffering. But if you want to promote economic development, laptops with Internet hookups have to be a great idea too, as long as they can get access. I can think of lots of ways to use it. Based on what I see on the web, so can a lot of other people.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:I'd go with vaccines, like the Gates Foundation. A lot of bang for the buck in preventing suffering. But if you want to promote economic development, laptops with Internet hookups have to be a great idea too, as long as they can get access. I can think of lots of ways to use it. Based on what I see on the web, so can a lot of other people.
Greater economic development is the only thing that will end suffering in the long run. Vaccines and medicine help, but they're only part of the cure.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ...computers to people who don't have stable governments
A stable government should be a pre-requisite to putting kids online. It's one of those steps that have come with our growth as a connected society.
Kids online need the protection that a stable government provides:
Locking up kiddie porn people
Locking up child predators
Providing enforcement for privacy policies
Making sure one tribe or caste or village doesn't benefit unfairly
Keeping a lid on fraud
Monitoring for and prosecuting illegal online activities such as slave trade and drug trade
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Lyrhawn, I also don't claim to be an expert in anything other than my own experiences. As well, I can also say that Sri Lanka is not necessarily like the rest of Asia, or even south Asia. Sri Lanka, for one thing, is going through a civil war. That changes things.
So, these laptops have handcranks for electricity. The wifi hubs have a coverage of several square miles. Great. Who provides them? What electricity are the hubs running on? Who's paying for that? Who's paying for the internet access for the hubs?
We have an internet throttling problem in Sri Lanka. Fahim and I have broadband ADSL. We're supposed to have up to 512 kbps(Down) / up to 128 kbps (Up). In reality, we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-150 kbps down and 75-120kbps up. That's on a normal day, and that's also with a limit on the number of ADSL accounts in the country. Bad days get... painful.
In the last neighborhood we lived in, only 50 connections were being offered. The neighborhood we're in now is the same.
As more connections in a neighborhood are installed, connection speeds decrease sharply. After all, this is an island country and we depend on undersea cables for international phone calls and internet. When an undersea cable goes out - which happened a year and a half ago during the Olympics - we have no internet until it's fixed or backup services via satellite are put into place. Of course, when the undersea cable near Taiwan went out due to earthquake a week or two ago, we had similar problems accessing North America, but that's another story.
A fourth undersea cable was installed recently between Sri Lanka and the mainland, and as far as I know, there are no more plans in the immediate future to install more. That means that we are limited to whatever we can get out of those cables.
More people in the internet means slower connection speeds.
At this time, only a small fraction of the population is on the internet. Expand that, and the internet will essentially become crippled for us unless the telephone companies / government / powers that be install more undersea cables at great expense or we move to satellite, which is also expensive. Who's going to cover that cost? How much will our telephone costs/internet costs go up? And as they increase, how many more people will be priced out of the ability to get internet usage?
And that's another thing. Cost. To get ADSL, you have to have a phone line. To get a phone line, you have to pay a $250 installation fee, which is equivalent to 1/3 of the average person's yearly salary. ADSL that we have costs $25 a month, which is as much as garment workers make in a month. How much will one of those neighborhood wifi connections cost?
Do you think the government will pay for the internet connections for those free or cheap computers? With what money? The government already has major budgetary problems. Some, maybe even many, governmental employees don't get paid for six months or longer at a time because the budgetary money hasn't been disbursed yet because the government doesn't have the money. Some governmental departments haven't paid their electricity or telephone bills in years and owe millions of dollars. Electric, gas, and telephone companies are in serious financial straits and have threatened to declare bankruptcy and shut down.
So, to repeat, who will pay for this?
Let's get back to the produce example. Get prices on cheaper produce four villages over. Well, that's nice, but how are you gonna take advantage of that? I mean, I could, all the members of my household could, but we're relatively wealthy. Could the average person? Considering that s/he has to take public transportation everywhere (trishaws and motorbikes are too expensive for the average person) and buses are already severely overcrowded and take forever to get anywhere, it's not realistic.
Chances are that not many people will take advantage of online posted prices to go to another village for shopping very often. If or when they do, it'll be for more expensive items and it'll be a major shopping expedition.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery: A stable government should be a pre-requisite to putting kids online. It's one of those steps that have come with our growth as a connected society.
Kids online need the protection that a stable government provides:
Ah, well, that automatically lets Sri Lanka out then.
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
Here's a quote about internet access taken from the wiki that might lesson alot of the fears about this idea.
quote: The OLPC networking concept is not Internet-based. We assume that there will be no Internet connectivity and no Internet gateways. The laptops are being deployed into countries which do not have a lot of native-language content available on the Internet. The networking focus is to make sure that the laptops will be able to communicate with each other over a larger than normal area, and that they will be able to communicate with resources in the school. In most cases, these school resources will not be Internet gateways but will be more like a cross between a library and an FTP site with content that kids can download to their laptops. Of course some schools will have Internet access and may copy Internet content for use by the kids, but the laptops are not intended to be used for direct Internet surfing.
Let me add the laptops create a wifi mesh without the need for anything other equipment.
[ January 11, 2007, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged ]
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
quote:Even when there is solid proof that at least 90 percent of that information is porn?
That is ridiculous. There is no solid proof of this. I think you're referring to claims that a high percentage of internet traffic is porn -- which may be true. But there is a difference between traffic and information (if you use information to mean content) (for the record, this is how I mean it). Porn is usually video -- video files are large. What you probably have is a small percentage of users using a disproportionate amount of traffic because they're trading very large files.
quote:Is "One Laptop per Child" a Good Idea?
Yes. Emphatically yes.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by TL: Yes. Emphatically yes.
I have to strongly agree with you here. As far as I can see, at most you can argue that this program is not the best use of resources. However, I certainly see very little evidence that it will in and of itself do more harm than good. There are potential risks, certainly, but the potential benefits are absolutely huge. As I said before, information and communication are incredibly powerful tools, and this is something the program is capable of providing.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery: The 3rd world isn't ready for our filth. They need to build up to it. It's like sending a kid from Catholic school to Vegas for the weekend.
Right, they're young and immature, they need our guidence, they need us to help them by supressing them. Good idea.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
This thread got derailed early on as everybody missed the point about the wifi connections. Thank you, Wowbagger, for setting that straight.
And Lyrhawn made the point regarding porn that I would've made. Kids that live in one room huts probably know a lot more about the birds and the bees than your kids do.
Irami said:
quote:Are we giving them web cams and sound equipment?
It doesn't come with a boom mike, but it does have a video camera.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
It seems that hand-me-down laptops would be cheaper and so they could ship more of them. OTOH hand-me-down laptops have hard drives, which these aren't supposed to; and they're seriously looking at incorporating power generation into the computer.
I looked over the software they intend to provide; looks useful.
Thanks for posting this.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: The 3rd world isn't ready for our filth. They need to build up to it. It's like sending a kid from Catholic school to Vegas for the weekend.
Exactly how *pure* do you think 3rd world countries are? It could just be the bias of the news I read, but most times I hear about poverty, no education, and 3rd world countries, I hear about female genital mutilation, higher crime rates like rape and murder, drugs, and mafia style child sex rings /prostitution parlors / forced adoption agencies.
I am not saying that is what all 3rd world countries are like, BUT I fail to see why there is an assumption they are more pure.
I think it is a great idea. Access to education can only help. The two major drawbacks I can see are: 1: Having access to see how some people live might make the children depressed, feel helpless, feel cheated, or angry. 2: There is a growing phenomenon of children selling themselves (or adults forcing children to sell themselves) on web cams as real time child pornography.
Since places like Africa predominately have a young and desperately poor population, they may use the internet as a way to pander to rich countries illicit and disgusting appetites.
I don't think 3rd world countries are models of purity who can't handle our filth. I do think they may be desperate enough to capitalize on the internet's darker side.
Without a strong government to crack down on such practices, 3rd world countries with a laptop for every child could become on online haven for pedophiles instead of just a travel haven for pedophiles..
Overall I think it is a good idea, but there needs to be a pre-thought out plan to deal with internet abuses.
EDIT: I missed Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged's excellent post. His post alleviates some of my concerns--of course there is still the problem *servicing* clients in the 3rd world countries. I do think over all , regardless if there is regular internet access, that access to information benefits a population more then it can hurt.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"...isn't a $150 laptop, with an increased electric bill built in, still asking too much from the third world?"
Hence the foot-pumped (originally planned to be handcranked) battery charger. No electrical grid needed, and no electric bill.
Thing is, it takes very little to make a BIG difference. eg: Solar-cells have become cheap enough that in remote locations they are the far less expensive alternative to setting up the kilometres of electricity lines from a centralized powerplant to a village. Because solar-cells are relatively cheap, cellphone relay towers can be set up in remote locations. Because at least one someone is wealthy enough to purchase a (recycled FirstWorld throwaway) $20cellphone, the villagers can buy phone-time from the owner. Because a villager can use a cellphone to find out how much produce/etc is selling for in the nearest market town, s/he has the information needed to strike a better sales price to the middleman, who formerly could make "take it or leave it" offers. Or decide that the extra profit potential makes it worthwhile to walk the produce/etc to the market town herself. When one someone in the village can afford eg a moped, s/he can provide direct competition to that (formerly one&only) middleman. [Adding in] The first major signs of Vietnam's recovery from the War, and embracement of capitalism, were of villagers using cellphones to find out prices in local area markets. Then using bicycles, mopeds, and small motorcycles to haul produce (including multiple cages of chickens, and single half-mature pigs) to where they could sell their products for the highest prices.
Ya see, poor people are natural entrepeneurs. Unlike FirstWorlders, they live too close to the edge to not take up any opportunity afforded them: UNICEF/etc puts in a solar-cell panel, next thing ya know the village gets wired for electricity. Not much per person, but a FirstWorlder can't even comprehend how much having a single electric lightbulb in ones home matters. With a cellphone tower nearby, one someone becomes rich enough to buy heavier wiring from the solar-cell panel and a cheap television set. Now you've got a village theatre, and outside news sources. With more knowlege of what is going on outside of their own little circle, people begin demanding better from themselves and fairer treatment from their society and government. ThirdWorld WiFi&computers are another means of achieving that end. Formal education is a secondary benefit being used as the main selling point to make an endrun around the folks who profit from "liking things just as they are" and who want to keep it that way.
"A plastic shield that only kids' hands could fit under? What good does that do?"
Probably a rejected proposal to solve the problem of adults ripping off kids to sell their $100Laptops on the blackmarket. Not really a problem: when every kid has a $100Laptop, the market for sales to families is already saturated. Oh sure, some individual adults will want one of their own, but so what? As long as $100Laptops aren't allowed to be exported out of the country they were stolen in, only a relatively few extra $100Laptops need to be imported. Even if through the blackmarket, poor adults becoming computer literate is just another plus in connecting to the world.
The idea that "self-taught computer literacy" is workable comes from experiments conducted in slums near tech centers and remote villages in India.
[ January 11, 2007, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
Quite frankly Im kind of surprised by some of the responses I read.
Helping others is never a bad thing. Here is an example.
I see a homeless man outside of a convenience store. He tells me that he is hungry and asks for a dollar so that he can buy a little something to eat. I see that he is worse off than me and so I give him a dollar. When I enter the store I see that he buys a beer instead of something to eat. I feel betrayed. The next time I see him I will not give him a dollar. I may go into the store and buy him something to eat and bring it to him, but I will not give him the dollar.
Now lets say the man entered the store and did not buy the beer, but rather a bag of chips. The next time I see him, I will give him another dollar because I trust him.
Now in either scenario, was giving the dollar to the poor man a bad thing to do on my part? Or was it an act of kindness aimed at helping someone less fortunate than I?
Maybe I think of the world on a larger scale than some. I dont see the United States as a country that should isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. We are the richest country in the world, and I beleive that because we are so blessed, we have a responsibility to help other countries enjoy the same things we have.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Now in either scenario, was giving the dollar to the poor man a bad thing to do on my part?
Yes. It was well-intentioned, but a bad thing to do. Acts cannot be solely evaluated on their intentions.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The bad thing to do is to assume that a beggar's word is of less worth than ones own, that mere poverty creates a lesser creature out of a human being.
[ January 11, 2007, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ...human zoos...
That post reminds me of something I've seen in Japan. Many Japanese have lamented the modernization of Japan and the disappearance of many folk traditions since WWII.
During the 1980's there was some concern that the construction of three large bridges to the island of Shikoku would destroy the last vestiges of traditional Japan. Shikoku is a popular pilgrimage destination for Japanese people who want to get in touch with their roots. Shikoku is on of the few places in Japan where you can still see things done the old way and can still get a good bowl of homemade ramen. In many ways it's still a 3rd-world country.
The bridges have had some effect on bringing Shikoku into the modern age, but when it came time to discuss extending the bullet train service via those bridges to Shikoku, the preservationists got their way. Good or bad, Shikoku has to get by with their slow trains.
Perhaps it makes a difference if it is your own and not somebody else's culture you are trying to preserve by blocking the advance of technology. Or is somebody else's culture also our own?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:The bad thing to do is to assume that a beggar's word is of less worth than ones own, that mere povery creates a lesser creature out of a human being.
Who did that? Or were you speaking generally?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Generally, but in response to Tom Davidson chiding Geraine for giving a buck to a beggar.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
I think it's a great idea, but one that Americans should hold off on jumping into until every child in the US has a laptop... I work with poor students, most of whom have no computer at home, and this program needs to exist for them as well.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Personally, I would be extremely distrustful if some people from a more prosperous nation with a tendency to foist its culture and ideals on others provided my family with a free laptop for my children but made sure that I couldn't use it myself.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Quid -
I haven't the slightest clue on answers to most of your questions. I was just saying that if all those details are worked out by the proponents of this plan, then I can see a real use for it. I haven't the foggiest on the logistics, that's for someone else to figure out.
As for the village thing, grab a map, where are the villages? Every continent, every country, is different. I'd assume that most of these people walk to market, who's to say they can't walk to the next village over? Or that they are placed between four villages on all sides and can choose the cheapest of the four to travel to or to sell their stuff at?
Posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged (Member # 7476) on :
There is nothing preventing the United States from joining this program. OLPC sells laptops to the Departments of Education of the countries that want them. From there they are localized (language, curriculum, etc)then distributed to the children. The laptops aren't free, the respective countries will buy them.
I'm hoping the United States joins. It would be perfect for cities with wifi networks. A few schools in Philadelphia (where I live) provide laptops for their students but the leaves essentially thousands of other students without regular access to Computers at home. It's in the hands of the US Department of Education.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
It would be cool if these laptops could contain entire books.
I'd guess that books aren't too common in some villages. Rot and the tendency to become firewood would eventually take care of any books that did exist.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I do not think that giving the dollar was a bad thing. No matter what they do with that dollar, I still did a good deed. If I had not seen what the homeless man did with it, how could I know he was going to buy beer with it?
An experience of mine:
While in college I needed to study, so I went to the library. Across the library there was a Mexican food restaurant. I became hungry, so I went there for lunch. Outside there was a gentleman named Neil. He was a homeless man, and asked me to buy him some food. I gave him a $5 bill and told him that I hoped he had a good meal. About 5 minutes after I walked into the restaurant he came in and ordered some food.
I invited him over to my table and got him a larger meal and paid for it. I found out he had come home from work one day and found his wife in bed with his best friend. He left and hopped on a bus to Las Vegas to start over, but she had emptied his account before he arrived. He missed his daughter and didnt know what he should do.
I talked to him and convinced him that for his daughters sake he needed to go back and work things out with his wife and friend. I gave him $20 on the promise that when he reached enough money he would call me so I could take him to the bus station. About two weeks later he called my cell phone, and I picked him up near the same restaurant and took him to the bus station. A couple weeks later he called me and said that he had gotten back with his wife and was going into counseling to try and get their lives back on track.
I could have given him the $20 and never heard from him again. And if he did, I wouldnt have felt any different about him than I do now. Because what he did with the money I gave him doesnt make the act less kind.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"It's in the hands of the US Department of Education."
Naw, the EducationDepartment can't spend what the Congress hasn't funded. Instead it's been left iin the hands of state legislators; who have been taking MAJOR bribes...errr...campaign contributions from telecoms and cable companies to pass laws making it illegal for local governments to set up free WiFi networks. And probably more quietly from Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Dell, Pearson, McGraw-Hill, Houghton-Mifflin, Harcourt General, etc to prevent "One Laptop per Child" from becoming a reality for American children.
Similar "campaign contributions" are also probably reaching Congress.
[ January 11, 2007, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I do not think that giving the dollar was a bad thing.
I think Tom's disagreeing with your definition of 'bad'.
Edit: Sorry to edit so late after posting, but I think I thought of a good analogy on the way home from work.
Tom's saying that he doesn't believe it's possible to judge an act based purely on the intention.
For a really elaborate example, consider this: your friend has a bee on his shoulder, and you happen to know he's allergic to bees. So you decide to remove it. With a high powered rifle.
The bullet drifts just a bit (perhaps you misjudged the windage) and puts a sizable hole through his neck. Now, you meant for this to be a good thing. But was it?
[ January 11, 2007, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: El JT de Spang ]
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
aspectre,
So the textbook publishers don't want us replacing books with text on a laptop?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Censorship would be a piece of cake with electronic textbooks. Re-spinning text to favor your own ideology?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Tell me about it. The NewYorkPost erased the links to Administration documents naming ValeriePlame as a covertCIAoperative. First one, because the document made clear that even the Administration considered the "Niger to Iraq" uranium-connection to be absurd. Then the second, because it still made obvious that Plame's name was deliberately aired because the other names were blacked out. Naturally, the NYPost failed to mention that they deleted links which made hash out of their proAdministration article.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: OLPC sells laptops to the Departments of Education of the countries that want them. From there they are localized (language, curriculum, etc)then distributed to the children.
So we risk enabling that government's propaganda engine?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Even the FirstWorld is far from being free of having disinformation in their textbooks. But having no information ain't better having some propaganda. As China's internet experience shows, government can't clamp down on all dissenting opinion. While "The truth shall set you free" may not hold as yet, at least "The truth is out there" to find. At least now the difference between the FirstWorld and China is in degree, and not in kind as it was before the Internet.
"So the textbook publishers don't want us replacing books with text on a laptop?"
I've always wondered why textbook publishers even exist. With 14million students on 4100 college&university campuses, surely some of those half milllion or so professors on the public payroll are capable of writing&editing the texts on public payroll. So it has seemed very odd that states haven't been just contracting for the printing of college&university-created texts instead of paying private corporations to decide what constitutes educational material. And now it seems odd that use of college&university-created texts as free educational software isn't the norm. Heck, MIT is offering much of its course material for free. Why not elementary and highschool material for free?
Even if we concede the computer&software industries' point that larger screens, disc memories, and dvd players are desireable, that is still less than $400 per child. In the FirstWorld, $400 is a drop in the educational budget. Even Arizona and Mississippi spend more than $5000 per year per child. Assume that laptops will hafta be replaced every 4years, that's $100 per year: less than 2% of the spending-per-student of the lowest-spending states, and less than 1% of that of the highest-spending states. Texas currently spends* ~$600million on K-12 textbooks for less than 4million K-12 students: ~$150 per student per year to replace damaged and obsolete books.
Problem is that the same $400laptop and free WiFi provides strong competition to those who want to charge double or more for laptops and $600+ per year for a decently not-slow Internet connection while strongly reducing the need for textbook publishers.
* Near as I can tell. Googling doesn't seem to be of much help: maybe I don't know the correct keywords/phrases.
[ January 12, 2007, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Whenever people get something nice, it will sometimes be misused. I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that we're the only ones who should have nice things.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The amount budgeted is $200,000 for 285units. Even with a no-discount $39 carry-cover, that comes out to $518 per unit, or $147,630 for 285units. Leaving $52,370 or 35.5% of the actual cost for graft. Nice to know that schoolboards never forget their main purpose for existence.
[ April 08, 2011, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Why bump a 4 year old thread for this?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Cuz it's related... And frankly I don't expect many responses, so why create a new thread?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I'm glad that the thread was bumped because it gives me a chance to point out how the original argument is basically the plot of Speaker for the Dead!
Seriously, "Don't corrupt that primitive culture with our advanced technology. Better to keep them in the dark rather than risk doing harm." This doesn't sound familiar to anyone on this of all boards?
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
The amount budgeted is $200,000 for 285units. Even with a no-discount $39 carry-cover, that comes out to $518 per unit, or $147,630 for 285units. Leaving $52,370 or 35.5% of the actual cost for graft. Nice to know that schoolboards never forget their main purpose for existence.
This is absolutely absurd. How are more people in this state and community not irate over the mixed up priorities of this school board? The ridiculously small educational benefit of teaching with the limited Ipad - which barely even meets the general definition of "computer" - doesn't come close to justifying the wasting of taxpayer dollars and in-class time which could otherwise be spent doing real teaching. The district's expected gains are hopelessly optimistic.
The school district could have added their resources to those in the private fund and used them together in a much more beneficial way, one with guaranteed positive results. It's these poor choices that make me laugh when school districts complain about the lack of funding and budget cuts. It's a slightly smaller offense, but the teachers in the school district in which I live were given Ipads to "incentivise better teaching" and to "experiment with integrating technology as a teaching resource." Too bad they didn't account for the fact that their Ipads don't incentivise me to pay more taxes.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
As long as somebody is up front about bumping a thread I don't mind if people don't read time stamps before posting, and respond accordingly.
Interestingly enough my sister's high school requires every student to get pay for an Apple laptop. The school even keeps a full time Apple employee on staff to do tech support on the laptops. They can get the internet anywhere on campus even outside, there are outlets for them in their lockers and even outside so they can charge them. Classes routinely utilize them, and teachers are trying to keep kids off facebook during class time.
I'm interested in seeing the pros and cons of this development. I will say it's genius on the part of Apple. All those kids in that school will buy computers down the road, work in offices, start businesses, and they will be partial to Apple because they were taught extensively how to use them in high school.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery: The 3rd world isn't ready for our filth. They need to build up to it. It's like sending a kid from Catholic school to Vegas for the weekend.
Hey now. There are plenty of girls that wear Catholic school uniforms here in Vegas. They get tipped really well too!
Your analogy though is a bad one. Las Vegas has a TON of activities for families, or Catholic school children. We have Lake Mead, Red Rock, Valley of Fire, Springs Preserve, skiing, etc. Just because 90% of the Strip has gambling and clubs doesn't mean there isn't quality activities for families.
Yeah, there is a lot of bad stuff on the internet, but there is also a lot of good stuff as well!
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote: They need to build up to it. It's like sending a kid from Catholic school to Vegas for the weekend.
I think I saw that video.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:The 3rd world isn't ready for our filth.
What makes you think the 3rd World doesn't have exactly the same issues as we do?
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