My friend's been trying very hard to get into a certain Ivy League school (University X, we'll say) for some time. Like, psychotically hard. She's all kinds of crazy things, from first-chair oboist in symphonic band to editor-in-chief of the school newspaper. Only a few months ago she was accepted into the school she wanted with much jubilation.
Now, all seniors need to pass a Participation in Government class to graduate. This includes the class's requirement of 20 credits (hours) of community service. My friend had 38.
Someone in her class (who I don't think she even knew that well) was failing. She tried to help by giving him 2 of her own credits. Unfortunately, she was caught. She was asked to go to a certain administrator's office, which is where the 'bad kids' go for, y'know, mouthing off, getting into fights, etc. Now, they said my friend was cheating but that's a litte ridiculous since she was helping someone else, not furthering herself.
Anyway, he threatened to tell University X about it and get her expelled. He told her not to tell anyone, but pretty soon the whole social studies dept. seemed to know about it, so she told people about it anyway. One teacher actually came up to her and said something like "Don't worry, I went to University X, and you're not University X material."
I can understand why they're angry about it, but threatening to get her expelled? And again, she didn't cheat to get where she is; she was trying to keep someone from failing. I think these people are actually angry because, despite my friend's being so successful, she's not the stuck-up they all are and dislike the fact that she actually tried to help someone in need.
Your thoughts please!
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Well, she *did* help someone cheat, and she covered it up. It wasn't like she told the teacher, "I'm giving Y 2 of my credits."
And it *was* cheating. Often in cases of cheating you have someone writing someone else's paper or something -- that is, someone helping someone else deceive the system and get undeserved credit. (Like shoplifting a CD that a friend wants -- it's still shoplifting.) If someone thinks that's not so bad, I don't want that someone at _my_ university, or my bank forging signatures to help others, or my house, stealing things that their friends want. I want people whose word I can trust.
I think we should give high schoolers a lot of leeway -- it's a time in life for youthful mistakes -- so I hope that they don't involve the university, and she gets in. And that this experience shows her that she never wants to do it again.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Now, they said my friend was cheating but that's a litte ridiculous since she was helping someone else, not furthering herself.
Why?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, yeah, no. Helping someone else to cheat also amounts to cheating.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I think the snottiness of the people's reaction is a lil' harsh especially when there is so much cheating in the world that largely goes unnoticed.
But then again I used to write essays for people so I'm probly not one to talk.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Still clearly, undeniably cheating. Maybe it could be said it was cheating for a good cause-not really, though, since the person short credits should've, y'know, done their own service-but still cheating.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Cheating is an issue because it is breaking rules. Not just arbitrary rules in this case, but rules of a more contractual nature: "if you accept these benefits, you will abide by these restrictions" sort of thing. And getting a degree from a given institution is a benefit, not to mention the information and training you get along the way.
It's just as much cheating if you don't directly benefit. (But there is generally a benefit, such as keeping this other person as a friend, or not being ostracized as a goody-two-shoes for not getting involved, etc.) And this young woman is going to face pressures to cheat from friends and acquaintances in just the same way when she attends University -- it would still be wrong there, and it would still be cheating there.
That being said, I don't think she should use her University slot over this. She should, however (IMO) have to understand why this is a problem and why it is treated so seriously. Again, she's going to face those same pressures in the university environment, and she needs to deal with them more appropriately than she did.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Giving someone free school-related help of the "I'll do your work for you" kind is not helping them, it is cheating.
Universities take cheating very seriously. I don't hope she doesn't get in to the university she wants but I hope she takes away from this experience not that "teachers are snotty" but that she shouldn't cheat.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheSeeingHand: She was asked to go to a certain administrator's office, which is where the 'bad kids' go for, y'know, mouthing off, getting into fights, etc.
TheSeeingHand, your friend is a "bad kid" insofar as any kid is a "bad kid" for doing something, well, bad.
Those kids aren't fundamentally different from you or your friend. They aren't different than you in the way that mushrooms are differnt things than tigers. They are kids, just like you, who also happened to do bad things. As your friend did, in this case.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
While what your friend did was wrong, I think the principal handled it badly. Wouldn't it have made more sense to start with, "I know you think you were helping, but the other guy needs to learn responsibility and time management"?
Being totally biased again school admin types, it sounds to me like the principal assumed she was an idiot and treated her like a child too small to understand what she'd done. He was going to scare her straight.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
I agree with the people saying what she did was wrong. It IS wrong and if she'd done it at college, she very well could have been kicked out.
At the same time, someone pointed out (sort of) that High School should be a place to be able to make mistakes with a little more 'give' than the world that comes after HS... I think if your friend's a generally good kid who doesn't do this thing all the time - she should be cut a break. Not that it just be swept under the carpet - but I think a firm talking to with emphasis on the fact that it was a big deal that could have gotten her into a lot of trouble will benefit her more than trying to take something away from her that means so much. You make her seem like a pretty smart individual - I'm pretty sure she'll get it.
Hope it all works out for her (and the person she tried to give the credits/hours to, too)...
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
Cheating is, well, cheating. School is a sort of game and giving people points they didn't score isn't fair.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
While I agree with the general sentiment that this is indeed cheating, I am a little surprised by the threat of expulsion, especailly for a first offense. In my HS one instance of cheating would result in automatic course failure; more than one would trigger much harsher punishments (eventually expulsion). I suspect the same is true for most others. (Is this a private school? That may be relevant here.)
I suspect -- and I'm just speculating here -- that the administration threatened expulsion because they didn't want to fail such a bright student. I'm not sure which university she applied to but I'm fairly certain that she'd have to explain the failing grade. Many schools now require a year-end transcript.
So they may have been trying to help her, in a perverse way, by keeping the incident under wraps.
--j_k
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:So they may have been trying to help her, in a perverse way, by keeping the incident under wraps.
I don't think so, as they threatened to tell University X about the cheating.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:So they may have been trying to help her, in a perverse way, by keeping the incident under wraps.
I don't think so, as they threatened to tell University X about the cheating.
That's kind of what I mean -- they threatened to tell the university, but there's no indication that they actually will. Then, they told her not talk about it. Failing the student would have been tantamount to telling the university anyway.
Of course, if
1) she did fail the course, or 2) the university doesn't require a late transcript, or 3) this is an incident-in-progress (meaning, the student was told not to speak of the issue because the school hasn't yet decided what to do, and may choose to tell University X later) or 4) the discipline policy at this HS is radically different from the one at mine
then the point is moot and you should just ignore me. It's probably (3) because I had assumed that the incident had been settled, but that's stated nowhere in the original post.
--j_k
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
First, I'm not sure what you mean by "...giving him 2 of her own credits". If that means she allowed this second person to take credit for 2 hours of her own community service, while definitely wrong, I don't think it was that bad.
It is not like the second person in question wasn't trying. They did, based on my assumption of 'credits', have 18 hours of community service. Now, if the second person had only 10 hours of service, and the first person transferred another 10, that would be a very big deal.
Don't get me wrong, the first person shouldn't have transferred the credits. I agree that is a form of cheating, but these things have to be kept in perspective.
Next, let's face it, high school teachers and administrator are essentially powerless. Because of this, they will mightily wield any weapon they can get their hands on. The weapons for grade school students is usually 'your permanent record'. By the time you are in high school, you have realized that no employer in the history of the world has ever looked at anyone's permanent record. No, in high school, it is - be good or I will totally screw up your college applications.
I can sympathize with those teachers and administrators, they have an extremely hard job to do in a world of increasingly more sophisticated and independent (not to mention self-centered, arrogant, and extremely annoying) students.
Yet, I think the administration handled this situation very very poorly. I am especially angry at the teacher who made the "..., I went to University X, and you're not University X material" comment. That was unnecessarily cruel and uncalled for. It is not the job of this teacher to determine who is and is not 'University X' material. That is the University's job, and they seem to have made their decision.
I think I would be half temped to contact University X's admissions board, and give them my own tearful, heartfelt, and regretful account of the events. I can't imagine that if the knew all the facts, this event would be sufficient to keep the student out of the University, especially when the 'cheating' was not to enhance her own grades which seem legitimately far above average.
The purpose of doing this would be to take away the petty power of the school to threaten her. Though, I'm quite sure a vast majority of the students would be more likely to keep their heads own and hope the whole thing blew over by the end of the year.
I think both the school and the university should make a distinction between cheating to enhance your own grades, and helping another student cheat to scrape by in a course.
To some extent, in this case, I would like to know more about the student that received the help. Is he a general loser relative to school work, or his he generally a good student who had legitimate reasons why it was difficult for him to complete his community service? Maybe he has a job that eats up most of his time, and maybe that job is not just for petty spending money but is important to his family.
Again, the full extent of the situation should have been considered by the administration. Likely if this was a good student who was genuinely trying, it he had gone to the teacher, it might have been possible to make some arrangements. The student did manage 18 hours of Service, maybe two additional hour could have been completed after the school year, or perhaps if the particular community service performed by this student was very demanding, 18 hours could have been considered enough.
Let's face it, most student, even those who fulfill the hours, are 'resume builders'. The community service is irrelevant as long as their college applications looks nice. Consequently, they are looking for easy community service. Regardless of the specifics, it is possible that this shortfall could have been resolved through proper school channels.
Just one man's opinion.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't understand how she "gave" the two hours to someone else. But I think if it happened at my school, they'd wave expulsion over your head and then make you do more community service and lots of detention or something. I went to private school.
We had to do 120 hours of community service, though. Fortunately, it makes the 30 hours required for my masters seem like a cakewalk.
-pH
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
Sometimes I fear for our country. It seems that way too many people have certain values skewed. I’m talking about the increasing tendency to have the punishment way outstrip the crime. Here is an example of what I mean:
Several years ago the teenaged son of one of my coworkers pulled a prank on a guy. He took a couple of pads of blank stickum notes and stuck ‘em on the outside of the guy’s house. The teenager ended up serving jail time and had a misdemeanor malicious vandalism conviction on his record.
This was an inexcusable overreaction to a harmless prank. And it was harmless. There was zero damage done. If it had been my house, my coworker and I would have been sitting on my porch the next day drinking a couple of cold cokes while his son cleaned off my house and mowed my lawn or something. He would have learned his lesson, someday this will be funny, end of problem. (And I would have got a little free yard work done in the bargain. )
(Of course these skewed values sometimes swing to the other extreme where really heinous crimes are laughed off with a jolly old “boys will be boys, ha, ha.” and a slap on the wrist at worst.)
So anyway, I’m willing to agree that the subject of this thread can be technically classed as “cheating” but, come on, it’s not a crime. It’s not even a very serious peccadillo. It looks to me like the school way overreacted.
Whatever happened to “let the punishment fit the crime,” for crying out loud? Maybe some folks are just too damn lazy to think of creative but appropriate punishments anymore.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
It's like getting a $200 ticket for jaywalking--it sucks and it seems unfair because it's so minor, but, well, you broke the rule for which that punishment was an option.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
What discipline, pH?
It's a little odd. Volunteering is great, but in my schooling, we were supposed to learn. Volunteering was our own business. If there's a lot of community service now, maybe we could cut it and get people graduated more quickly.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'm working on my MBA. It's a Jesuit school; everybody who goes to grad school has to do community service. It doesn't take any extra time. My 120 hours in high school didn't take any extra time, either. It just meant I got less time to sit on my butt on the couch in the summers. I mean, 30 hours? I can do that in the week-long break between spring and summer semesters.
-pH
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
erosomniac:
quote: . . .you broke the rule for which that punishment was an option.
To which I would rely: True. But just because a proscribed punishment option was on the books does not always mean it ought to be used. What if the violator were a single mom trying to eke out a meager living at a minimum wage job and she could ill afford the $200 fine. Wouldn’t a more compassionate punishment be better, depending on the circumstance. Say, spending some community service time teaching school children the dangers of jay walking. I can think of several other types of punishments.
True it takes a little effort for a judge to think up these types of things and then to implement them. And maybe the judge wasn’t lazy. Maybe he or she was just too swamped. Who knows?
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
"Fortunately, it makes the 30 hours required for my masters seem like a cakewalk."
You have a community service requirement for your masters? Is it an M.Div. or something like that?
[Edited to add] whoops, you already beat me to it.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
Actualy, expulsion does seem way over the top. My school would probably have just required a few extra hours of service if this were a first offence, which I take it it was.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
To Samuel Bush -
I do agree with your post above, it seems sometimes that the world is cascading out of control. On one hand we have Zero Tolerance and on the other hand we have the High School Jock/Gods treading the halls with impunity.
To me, Zero Tolerance has always meant zero brains, zero effort, zero responsibility, zero logic, and zero reason. When a school impliments a Zero Tolerance policy, they are essentially saying, I'm willing to make zero effort to do my job. It is an attempt to push the responsibility for running a safe stable school off the people who we hire to hold that responsibility and onto anyone and everyone else.
As to the 'privileged' Gods of the school who roam the hall with impuntity. That is an invitation to chaos. That is an invitation to some hopelessly frustrated and oppressed underclassmen (in a whole new sense of 'under class') to lose it and come to school one day with an AK-47. I have no sympathy for kids who do this, but I have great sympathy regarding the forces that have brought them to this state. Imagine the pain and hopelesness that a young person feels who is driven to this point. There has to be something behind those feeling. There has to be a source, and that source can not be tolerated in a well administered school.
So, my point is that a school is doomed, if not to overal failure of purpose, then doomed to make the lives of their students miserable. Schools need to be administered with common sense. They rules need to be fair and just, and that justice as well as punishement must apply to all. Having football practice should not get you out of detention and more than being in chior, band, or on the debate team should get you out of detention.
This is all something of a tangent, but I agree that things are becoming polarized. It's all or nothing, and the common sense middle ground seems more hopelessly lost every day.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
Well said, Steve. And I’m not saying that just because we agree with each other on this. I especially like what you said about the harassment stuff.
Some of my children had to put up with quite a lot of harassment by fellow students. My wife and I tried to get it stopped. The school administrators and teachers either could not or would not stop it. So we ended up yanking my children out to public school and home schooling them instead. Too bad they missed out on all of that valuable socialization like how to live with abuse, bullying, and belittlement and other important social skills like that. They also missed out on a lot of learning how to become abusers and bullies themselves by missing out on the full 12 years of watching how it is done. But at least they got to spend a lot more time around adults who had learned to become civilized.
Ok. End of rant.
But about another matter. I made the mistake of thinking some more about my post about the $200 jay walking fine so it dawned on me that my hypothetical comments about the judge were irrelevant and maybe even border-line stupid. It dawns on me that it is unlikely the case ever went before a judge. It has been my experience, with the one or two or half dozen minor traffic violations I have been fined for, that I had the option of paying a preset fine or going to court and then probably paying an even worse fine (since I was guilty as heck each time). So I just opted to pay the fines and get it over with.
So my comments on that were kind of dumb and I withdraw them. But I do stand by my sentiment that there needs to be more compassion (and yes, common sense too) and that people’s circumstances and intentions ought to be taken into consideration before punishment is meted out.
I don’t remember who said this but it’s pretty good anyway:
“Justice is what we deserve. Mercy is not getting it.”
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Dorks that care WAY too much about school and do things just because it will look good on an application to college are horrible people. It seems like this is a good thing to have happened to her.
And she probably isn't University X material if she doesn't realize that cheating is cheating even if it isn't for you.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elmer's Glue: Dorks that care WAY too much about school and do things just because it will look good on an application to college are horrible people.
I really don't think I'd go that far. I do think that it's sad when students miss out on un opportunities because they take an entire week to study for next week's test and refuse to even go see a movie with their friends, but I don't think TSH described his friend that way.
-pH
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
“horrible people. . .” ?
Allow me to disagree with you on this. I hardly think they are horrible people. I think they are people who have learned to play the game in order to get an descent college education. They didn’t set the rules but it sure seems that years and years of corporate greed and academic snobbery have engrained a system where getting that degree is all important if one is to be considered a worthwhile and valuable citizen. Not to mention getting a decent job that pays a living wage.
Under existing conditions one can hardly blame a person for trying to get the best college education they can.
I wish I had played the game a little better than I did instead of being such a rebel and iconoclast.
I personally think that a person can become highly educated and become highly creative without ever setting foot inside a formal school. Be I don’t make the rules. And those rules are clearly this: A corporation, government bureaucracy, or school will not even look at you as a potential high level employee if you don’t have a college degree - often even a PHD.
So the really successful people learn to play the game. Some of them actually get a pretty good education too.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Now, all seniors need to pass a Participation in Government class to graduate. This includes the class's requirement of 20 credits (hours) of community service.
I feel for your friend and I hope she gets into her school. It sounds like she was just trying to be nice at the wrong time.
Just out of curiosity, though, is the community service at least related in some fashion to something in the government? Or can you get your learnin' regarding 'Participation in Goverment' through, like, picking up litter?
I guess it would be something of a thread derailment to say that I am somewhat ambivalent of what amounts to compulsory community service. I hope whoever is overseeing the program is at least trying to match interests to the service or something.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlueWizard: on the other hand we have the High School Jock/Gods treading the halls with impunity.
What sort of messed up high school did you go to? This wasn't my experience at all during school.
Posted by Zophar (Member # 10063) on :
How can you do 120 hours of community service without it taking any extra time? That sounds like real cheating to me. I'm confused.
And I agree that to even threaten something that will make a 17/18 year old think you will ruin their future over this is an over reaction. Yes, punish them internally (within the confines of the school they are in) so they are clear they've done wrong, but to scare them beyond that seems incredibly cruel. Everyone makes mistakes.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zophar: How can you do 120 hours of community service without it taking any extra time? That sounds like real cheating to me. I'm confused.
How does that sound like cheating? 120 hours is 20 hours a week for six weeks. You can do that over one summer in your sleep. And that's if you really must do it all at once.
-pH
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I wish my school had required community service. If I a. knew how to get started and b. was in the habit I would probably be doing a lot more community service today.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
...
Posted by Zophar (Member # 10063) on :
quote: 120 hours is 20 hours a week for six weeks. You can do that over one summer in your sleep.
I'm generally awake when I do community service, which I do not for credit (too old to need it)
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
You know what I meant.
-pH
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
I had to do 20 hours for my high school politics class, but it was 20 hours volunteering at the Democratic or Republican Headquarters for our town. You could pick which one, though if the number of students interested in one exceded the number the party was able to take, they would do a lottery. People who didn't agree with either party just had to pick one, but it was mostly answering phones so it's not like you were really campaigning unless you wanted to.
As far as what punishment is appropriate for loaning hours, it defintely is cheating, and I think that the punishment should be whatever the class's/teacher's/school's policy is. Most likely this would be to get a zero on that assignment, which may or may not result in failing the class. If this person didn't realize that what they did was wrong (which I highly doubt), then they really need to learn that. I dislike people who help others to cheat far more than I dislike people who cheat for themselves.
Posted by Zophar (Member # 10063) on :
I like the sound of Community service hours in HS (not sure about being forced to work for Dems or Repubs, though...what about Greens or others? )
We didn't have to do this at my highschool (rural PA, graduated 1980). Is it widespread now?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
Back to the original post:
quote: I think these people are actually angry because, despite my friend's being so successful, she's not the stuck-up they all are and dislike the fact that she actually tried to help someone in need.
I can't imagine a teacher who dislikes a student for being successful and nice! Hint: Teachers like nice, hardworking kids. Teachers LOVE the kinds of kids who get into Ivy League schools. Teachers are very disappointed when nice, bright, hardworking kids are dishonest. And what this friend did was dishonest and against the rules of the school--e.g. cheating. I get angry when kids cheat and plagiarize in my class, just like I get angry when kids lie to me. (I don't share that emotion with the child unless it seems like it'll make an impression, though. Still, it's how I feel, along with the sadness and disappointment.)
I don't know why the school handled it the way they did...seems to me like she should've just failed the requirement, which is the usual first level punishment for academic dishonesty. Maybe this school has a different policy.
And of course, perhaps the teacher who made the nasty comment really is jealous. There are some rotten teachers out there who feel threatened by smart & successful kids. It just seems unlikely to me that there's an entire school & administration full of them.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Right. There are a few teachers that despise certain students, but I've never actually met any who hate the smart polite ones!
blacwolve, it's not too late! What would you like to do, and who would you like to do it with? Wherever you are, there have to be lots of opportunities.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Zophar: I like the sound of Community service hours in HS (not sure about being forced to work for Dems or Repubs, though...what about Greens or others? )
We didn't have to do this at my highschool (rural PA, graduated 1980). Is it widespread now?
The reason you had to work for either the Dems or the Repubs is because they're the only ones who actually have official HQ. Since most of the work was just calling people to ask if they would be voting on election day, it didn't really matter what your affiliation was. Also, my town in mostly democrats, but they were only able to take half of the class, so a lot of people ended up working for the party they didn't want to any way. I don't think any of the kids in that situation felt like they were being forced to represent ideas or attitudes they didn't believe in.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
There is something I still don't understand about the original post: it doesn't sound like the young woman in question was helping out someone in need. Not really.
I mean, if it was only two hours, then couldn't the person who "needed" the credits have just gone out and done them that afternoon? Or, if graduation was imminent, even that very morning?
If it was such a little thing to do wrong, then why wasn't it just such a little thing to do it the right way? What was the point of the cheating?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
One thing the teaching assistants I've worked with over the course of grad school have all agreed on is that if kids spent as much time actually studying and doing their work as they did trying to figure out how to cheat, they'd probably actually learn the material and do much better grade-wise in the bargain.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
In my opinion the answer to this is pretty simple. She should suffer the consequences of her action. Expulsion is a little extreme, but I'm sure school policy includes that anyone caught cheating in a class should fail the class - that's how it is in most schools. So, fail her in the government class, and then if University X chooses to take that failure into consideration and refuse to admit her - that's their business. No threats, no overzealous punishment. The student who cheated gets just punishment - the failing grade - and the consequences for her are exactly what is merited in the situation. It may prevent her from getting into University X. If so, then she's learned a pretty valuable lesson. It may not prevent her from getting into University X - if so, I hope she still learned a valuable lesson.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The reason you had to work for either the Dems or the Repubs is because they're the only ones who actually have official HQ.
I was far more likely to actually support a Republican candidate back in high school, and I still would have protested this decision in a major way.
Service at an elected official's office, I can see, even though that would force association with a political party someone might agree with. Maybe something like "work for a candidate or a political cause." But with the actual engine of one of only two parties - not the government? No way.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, but we all know you're a troublemaking agitator.
*wanders off humming But, Mr. Adams*
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Wow. I was never required to do community service, though I did volunteer at a political party headquarters on my own innitiative. I had no idea it would look good on a college application, and I cannot remember if I mentioned it or not. Hm.
It's cheating to help someone, no question. I think she was threatened with expulsion to drive home that point. At least, I hopoe that was the intention and thatthey don't follow through on the threat. The effect being to scare a basically moral, good student into realizing cheating to help someone is still cheating, so she doesn't end up ruining her college career over a similar incident after she is studying at University X.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
I dont agree with what she did, however it was horrible that the administrator told others about what she did. In fact, they may have violated some of her rights as a student, and she should look into what the local laws say about student confidentiality.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samuel Bush: erosomniac:
quote: . . .you broke the rule for which that punishment was an option.
To which I would rely: True. But just because a proscribed punishment option was on the books does not always mean it ought to be used. What if the violator were a single mom trying to eke out a meager living at a minimum wage job and she could ill afford the $200 fine. Wouldn’t a more compassionate punishment be better, depending on the circumstance. Say, spending some community service time teaching school children the dangers of jay walking. I can think of several other types of punishments.
True it takes a little effort for a judge to think up these types of things and then to implement them. And maybe the judge wasn’t lazy. Maybe he or she was just too swamped. Who knows?
Rules are made to be enforced strictly, selectively tempered with mercy.
The reason we have standard prescribed punishments is because examining each case individually would be time consuming. If PB's friend feels she's being treated unfairly, she should ask to speak to a disciplinary committee. Unlike a judge, the disciplinary committee likely has a lot of leeway with regard to how it treats offenders. If PB's friend makes it plain that she understands she did something very, very wrong for which she should be punished, she may be able to influence the form the punishment should take.
But let's not kid ourselves: she helped someone cheat, one of the most serious academic offenses. The law and the rules do not exist for compassionate interpretation. They exist to be adhered to.
It's also difficult to judge what the most "compassionate" interpretation would be. In your example, for instance, you would consider forcing a single mother to do community service as opposed to paying a fine. I don't see how this is necessarily more compassionate; time is a much more valuable commodity to many single mothers than cash is. When you consider that almost every state gov't offers a payment plan for fines for unusual circumstances, your punishment sounds downright cruel compared to a fine.
In the case of the girl in question, it may be a more valuable lesson for her to feel the full extent of the consequences for her actions. It may not be; I don't know. All my first post said was that if she's punished to the full extent, it will be neither unfair nor undeserved.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Unlike a judge, the disciplinary committee likely has a lot of leeway with regard to how it treats offenders.
Even in this day of more frequent mandatory minimum sentences, judges have enormous leeway with regard to how they treat offenders.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I don't think the question here is that the girl was disciplined, but that she was so brutally threatened with discipline.
It seems reasonable that her local school would remind her that she was still in high school and that her position at the college of her choice was not etched in stone. Any infractions or discplinary action could result in the College Admissions Committee changing their mind.
This is really standard practice in high school. Kids get accepted to a college and they think they can run wild and nothing can happen to them. The school needs to remind them that they are NOT in college yet and their actions can still affect their chances.
But in this case, the high school didn't seem to do this. Their actions just seem pointlessly cruel and insensitive, and as I said before, the 'your not University X material' was absolutely uncalled for.
Just a thought.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I've never worked at any school where the penalty for cheating was failing a course. Several people here have said that is standard; I just want to point out that it doesn't seem to be.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I still don't understand why this young woman felt that the other person needed her 2 hours credit (if she did think that, that is). Why didn't the other person just do the 2 hours, like, the next day?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I've never worked at any school where the penalty for cheating was failing a course. Several people here have said that is standard; I just want to point out that it doesn't seem to be.
Admittedly, I only have experience with one high school and first hand knowledge of a couple others, but all of them explicitly explain you can fail a course for cheating. They also explain that you are eligible for suspension or expulsion for cheating, at their discretion.
It's never heard of it being enforced to that extent, but the penalty is definitely in the books.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I've never worked at any school where the penalty for cheating was failing a course. Several people here have said that is standard; I just want to point out that it doesn't seem to be.
It should be standard everywhere. There is no reason I can think of where it's a good idea to let someone cheat in a course and still give them a passing grade. I don't doubt you Icarus, not at all, I'm certain you're right. I will have a hard time dealing with that when I teach - having been out of high school for so long and used to the university environment where it's not a question of whether or not you fail the course but whether or not getting caught cheating gets you expelled - failing the course is a given.
Edit to add: Out of curiosity, I looked at what my kids school system says - in the official Code of Student Conduct, it lists cheating/dishonesty as a Class 2 violation, which means the principal uses his/her discretion, parents must be notified, and sanctions allowed include but are not limited to the following:
1) Temporary removal from class 2) Detention 3) In-school suspension 4) Alternative Education Program 5) Out of school suspension 6) Referral to outside agency, including the criminal justice system 7) Corporal punishment (this is still on the books in our school system, but as far as I understand - isn't used) 8) Saturday school (grades 5-12 only) 9) School bus suspension (more than 10 days) 10) Restitution of property and damages where appropriate 11) Other sanctions approved by the Board of education.
If you're curious what else are Class 2 Violations, it includes stuff such as vandalism/property damage, trespassing/illegal school entry, gambling, and theft of property. The highest level offenses are Class 4 - which are all weapons-related and/or drug crimes. Class 3 are things like fighting, tobacco possession, indecent exposure and unjustified activation of a fire alarm.
Nothing is mentioned about academic consequences - this is the disciplinary code of conduct. I'll have to ask my oldest daughter if the individual teachers' have policies or what.
[ January 16, 2007, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Belle,
I don't know that cheating is as cut and dried in the university setting as you make it out to be. There are a lot of shades of grey, with group projects and the like. Is it cheating for a group to keep a homework archive of what the same professor has assigned before. Particularly when you know he recycles homework problems?
Some professors say you aren't allowed to use those documents. I have a hard time with that. Obviously you shouldn't just straight copy them, but why shouldn't you be allowed to share notes with someone else, or review past homework assignments from a previous class?
AJ
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:[the penalty for cheating was failing a course] should be standard everywhere. There is no reason I can think of where it's a good idea to let someone cheat in a course and still give them a passing grade.
To me, this seems very harsh. The three high-schools that I attended and am familiar with would fail you for the assignment you were working on if you were caught cheating, and fail you for the class if you were caught a second time (as well as detention or sat. school or something, I don't remember).
In the case under discussion, were I the student in question, I would expect to fail the assignment regarding the community service. As I understand it this would mean failing the entire course, and I'm sure I would hope and probably beg for a make up assignment, assumedly much more difficult than the original. I just can't see failing a student who has (assumedly) worked very hard and studied for an entire semester because they cheated once. And threatening to destroy a students dream of going to a particular college just sounds heartless and mean.
As for the rude comment made by one of the teachers; that teacher should be repremanded, IMO. I had a teacher, who's class I was acing at the time, tell me that it would be a waste of money for my parents to send me to college. It may have had something to do with me calling her "Nancy Pantsy" repeatedly, but then, who knows? ::shrug::
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Is it cheating for a group to keep a homework archive of what the same professor has assigned before. Particularly when you know he recycles homework problems?
Some professors say you aren't allowed to use those documents. I have a hard time with that. Obviously you shouldn't just straight copy them, but why shouldn't you be allowed to share notes with someone else, or review past homework assignments from a previous class?
If the instructor considers it cheating, then why on earth would you think it is ok?
What if the teacher re-used an old final (ignoring the stupidity on the instructor's part for a moment)? Now, what if the instructor reused an old final, and the department has a policy that students are not supposed to get their finals back, just the grade (that's the policy at UCLA's math department, for instance), but somehow you got a copy of last year's final?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I've never worked at any school where the penalty for cheating was failing a course. Several people here have said that is standard; I just want to point out that it doesn't seem to be.
I went to school where that was the standard penalty.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:If the instructor considers it cheating, then why on earth would you think it is ok?
Exactly.
The professors make the rules. If you break them, you are a cheater. Period. There is no gray in that.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
quote: I've never worked at any school where the penalty for cheating was failing a course. Several people here have said that is standard; I just want to point out that it doesn't seem to be.
Clarification: I said failing the requirement would be standard; by that I meant the "30 hour" assignment, not the whole course. Sorry that wasn't clear, thus the clarification.
At the schools where I've worked, failing the ASSIGNMENT is the first-level penalty, but it's often left to teacher discretion, so I can choose to be merciful.
I don't.
That said, my decisions in that regard don't affect anyone's college career...but if it did, I might think, You're 18! Shouldn't you know better by now?? I don't know, though.
As for the university situation: yeah, I think it is that cut and dried. If the professor says it's cheating, then it is. I worked at a writing center as a tutor, and there were 2 or 3 professors whose students we weren't allowed to help. Even though the assistance I gave was VERY far from writing a paper for a student, I still respect those professors' assessment decisions--they wanted to know what the students were capable of on their own.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Actually, I was referring to Universities as well, since I also taught at Clemson. When I busted a student for plagiarism, she got a zero on the assignment and a sealed note in her record. A second offense, I believe, would have resulted in expulsion. In theory.
Around here, the standard is a zero on the assignment for the first offense. There are slightly harsher penalties for further offenses--but only if they are in the same class! In other words, you can cheat once per class without getting suspended or expelled. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Is it cheating for a group to keep a homework archive of what the same professor has assigned before. Particularly when you know he recycles homework problems?
Yes. Particularly since, in my experience, not every student has access to this sort of resource. At my college, the fraternities and sororities kept archives. So if you went Greek, you had access to past assignments and tests. If you didn't, you didn't. I don't know if maybe the professional associations in the various disciplines kept them too, I wasn't a member of one. But no one ever mentioned it if they did, and I heard about them from my friends in the Greek system many times.
I don't see why reviewing the homework of someone who took the class a year ago is any less cheating than reviewing the homework of someone who's in the class with you. More, in fact, because it's already been graded and you know if they got the question right. But even if you're not copying and are just "reviewing," if it's a resource that isn't available to all students it's not fair to use it.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
quote: Class 3 are things like fighting, tobacco possession, indecent exposure and unjustified activation of a fire alarm.
I can not believe that possesing tobacco, which is incidentally legal for 18 y.o kids, is on the same level as indecent exposure.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
For universities, I guess it just depends. Where I went, it was a quick trip to the honor court and then expulsion. Ding! Thanks for playing!
I live in Virginia, where UVA's honor code is...notorious? famous? Anyway, some graduates actually got their diplomas revoked when it was proved after their graduation that they had cheated on a test. Since a lot of my kids want to go there, I definitely include UVA's policy in my "plagiarism is stealing and even though nothing really bad happens to you here someday it will" talk.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
All other issues aside, if you are willing to ruin a kid's dream in order to teach them a rather small lesson about cheating, I doubt you actually have their best interests in mind.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
A rather small lesson? I cannot agree with that.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: All other issues aside, if you are willing to ruin a kid's dream in order to teach them a rather small lesson about cheating, I doubt you actually have their best interests in mind.
I regard ruining their dream in order to show them how the real world functions a far more valuable life experience than getting into ANY college could ever be.
YMMV, I guess.
Also, if it's "ruining a kid's dream," it's sort of impossible for the lesson to be small.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I think that's rather hyperbolic language, and I find the attitude expressed myopic and immature.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
You know, it's not the teacher / principal / administrator who ruined the kid's dream - it was the kid who ruined his/her own dream. Put the blame where it belongs.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Excellent point, quid.
Expecting a student to deal with the natural consequences of their actions is certainly not a small lesson. And sadly, too many adults have never learned it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
AJ, I think the professor has the ability to set their own rules and you should follow them. For example, one prof said he knows there are copies of his tests floating around and said studying them is a great idea - it will help you in the course. His opinion was that if a prof is lazy enough to keep using the same test he deserves whe he gets. This guy uses a different test every semester so studying the former test is more akin to studying notes. Other professors might not want that to happen. I think you use your discretion - if a prof says it's okay, it's okay. If he doesn't, and it seems a gray area to you the best thing to do is assume it isn't gray but black and don't do it. That's the safest way to go.
As for group assignment, funny you should mention them. Just finished one. Five people in the group, I was the coordinator and only three of my group members contacted me and contributed. I called the professor, told her the other person had not responded, she gave me contact information, I called and emailed her, nothing. So the professor told me to email her by noon on Monday and if the person hadn't contacted me she would receive a zero for the assignment and we would not be penalized for having only 4/5 of the assignment done. That's what happened.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Belle, that's why I hate graded groupwork.
In my department, the policy is, if you catch them once, they fail the assignment/quiz/exam. If you catch them twice, they fail the course. I like that because it conveys the absolute seriousness of the infraction without being overly harsh the first time.
ElJay, the situation with the fraternities and sororities would be problematic for me, because it definitely seems like cheating to me. On the other hand, I'm not sure that it would be possible or right to dictate to students what they could do with their graded assignments after they'd gotten them back. This is why I try to change up my quizzes and exams whenever I teach a class more than once. As far as homeworks go, my homework assignments are not heavily weighted enough to concern me...since the student's real lack of progress will be apparent when they take the exams and quizzes.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:A rather small lesson? I cannot agree with that.
Perhaps small is not the right word. But I doubt this is the first time this student has come across cheating. My suspicion is that they have already had many lessons about it, through their own actions or the actions of others, and have probably already formed opinions on it. For that reason, I have doubts that teaching them a severe lesson in this one instance is going to radically change them - not moreso than a more moderate punishment would. I don't think the severity will make it stick.
In fact, my guess is that if school prevented the student from going to the student's dream college over this, chances are the lesson taken home would not be the one intended.
quote:You know, it's not the teacher / principal / administrator who ruined the kid's dream - it was the kid who ruined his/her own dream. Put the blame where it belongs.
If we gave the kid the death penalty for the act of cheating, would it also be the kid who killed himself/herself, or would it be the adults who decided upon the needlessly harsh punishment?
I'd say blame for any bad outcome always belongs on anyone who made choices that could have led to a better outcome had they chosen otherwise.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:In fact, my guess is that if school prevented the student from going to the student's dream college over this
It should be noted that the school would not be denying the student access to the college; the college were.
The school would only be informing the college of what happened.
quote:If we gave the kid the death penalty for the act of cheating, would it also be the kid who killed himself/herself, or would it be the adults who decided upon the needlessly harsh punishment?
Yes, but we're not talking about the death penalty. We're talking about a well-known consequence of cheating, one that is proper and proportionate to the infraction.
There was no way that the kid didn't know this was wrong. There's no way the kid didn't know that, if caught, it could threaten her college career. Had she chosen otherwise, the bad outcome wouldn't have occurred.
quote:I'd say blame for any bad outcome always belongs on anyone who made choices that could have led to a better outcome had they chosen otherwise.
This is incredibly over-simplistic. For one, you leave knowledge out. For example, if I unknowingly say the command word that puts a trained attack dog into attack mode, there's no blame for me there, even though I could have chosen to say another word. And that's just the most basic and easiest to point out problem with your rule.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Tres, I'm unsure what is needlessly harsh about what has been done. The OP seems to be upset that his friend was "threatened to be expelled." Well, if the school handbook from my school district is any guide, that's not a pointless threat - according to that, expulsion is one of the penalties that can be assessed for cheating. I'm sure this school has a similar policy in writing.
In other words, yes, you can expel a kid for cheating but I seriously doubt it happens very often. And, the OP hasn't said this kid WAS expelled, just told about the possibility. That sounds to me like an administrator who thinks he has a pretty good kid on his hands, wants to let them know how serious their offense is, but doesn't really plan on following through with it.
The comment made by the teacher sounds harsh, and is probably pretty rude, but then again, I don't see where it has done any real harm except to upset the student, and honestly, I think she should be upset. She cheated. There should be consequences for that.
In my opinion, the kid should fail the course. Then, since that course it required for graduation, that means graduation may be delayed and the kid should have to finish the course in summer school or something before receiving her diploma. If that means she won't be able to attend the school she wants to, that's where the learning of a harsh lesson comes in. She can attend a junior college for the first year and re-apply to the university of her choice later. I think that's an appropriate punishment.
Now...I seem to be in the minority. Most people think she should only get a zero on the assignment. If that's what happens, I doubt there will be any real consequence. She sounds like the type of student that has a grade high enough that even a zero on that assignment won't cause her to fail the course. She's already accepted to the uni of her choice, so it doesn't look like she will suffer any real consequence at all. To me, that's a shame. She'll graduate having been taught that it's okay to cheat as long as you have good grades. If she leaves high school with that attitude, then I wouldn't want her to be a student in my alma mater. Maybe that's what the teacher who said the comment about her not being University X material meant. Can't say I disagree with the teacher overmuch, even though I probably personally would never say something like that.
The best outcome we can hope for is that she is scared silly by this, realizes that her actions have consequences and that bad judgment could have cost her her dream, and goes on to University X a more mature, and wiser student and applies herself diligently to her studies and never cheats again. The hope for that is the only reason I can get behind not failing her for the course.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
In all the group projects I did, we had a group grade assessment. So, if there were five members, there was 500% to work with, and all members of the group got to vote on who got what percentage. Before the project began, each group could set their own rules, ie don't show up for a meeting automatically means -10% for that person. So, at the end of the project, except for the one person who didn't show up for any meetings including that one, all remaining group members discussed and voted on percentages. Then they all signed the resulting document and handed it in with the project.
Made things a whole lot more fair that way and there weren't any surprises.
I can't imagine doing it any other way.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:There's no way the kid didn't know that, if caught, it could threaten her college career.
Actually, I suspect it is highly likely the kid did not know it could in any way impact her college career, given the kid was obsessing about getting into a certain college. I'm not even sure it would have been clear to the kid that it was cheating, depending on how the rules of the service requirement worked. In any event, I suspect the punishment the kid would have expected would be a zero for the assignment, or being required to redo the service hours - both of which would have been reasonable punishments. Frankly, having known students who approach school and college in the way that it sounds like this student approaches it, they will probably take a zero on any assignment very seriously.
quote:Tres, I'm unsure what is needlessly harsh about what has been done. The OP seems to be upset that his friend was "threatened to be expelled." Well, if the school handbook from my school district is any guide, that's not a pointless threat - according to that, expulsion is one of the penalties that can be assessed for cheating. I'm sure this school has a similar policy in writing.
Well, threatening his friend is fine. There's nothing needlessly harsh about that. What I'm saying is that actually doing it to the student is a punishment that would far outweigh the crime in this case.
The exception to this being if there is some reason to think this is a pattern of behavior. It doesn't sound like there is.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Actually, I suspect it is highly likely the kid did not know it could in any way impact her college career, given the kid was obsessing about getting into a certain college. I'm not even sure it would have been clear to the kid that it was cheating, depending on how the rules of the service requirement worked. In any event, I suspect the punishment the kid would have expected would be a zero for the assignment, or being required to redo the service hours - both of which would have been reasonable punishments.
Zero on the assignment means she doesn't graduate on time - it's a requirement to pass a required course. If this kid is as bright as she's made out to be, she knew of this possibility.
The school likely made recommendations (either by teachers, dean certifications, or something similar). If I told school Y that person X was a suitable candidate, I would feel a duty to report anything school-related that called that opinion into question.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:The school likely made recommendations (either by teachers, dean certifications, or something similar). If I told school Y that person X was a suitable candidate, I would feel a duty to report anything school-related that called that opinion into question.
Excellent point. Yes, I'd do the same. If competition to get accepted to this University is high, then allowing them to extend a position to a student who has questionable character, means that another student who may have the same grades, accomplishments, and impeccable character is denied a place. For that reason, I do agree the school should notify the university.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
What does this community service entail and why is it a requirement to graduate?
Why are we using children as slave labour for to further someone's agenda? They're not convicts.
A better lesson might be to require they get a job. Make them serve the public AND learn the value of a dollar which is a lesson lost on most adults these days.
Still, I wouldn't support that as a requirement to graduate. The whole idea of forced community service pisses me off greatly.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
If adults get much more stupid, they're going to revert back to apes. Apes, I tell you! *shakes fist*
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:What does this community service entail and why is it a requirement to graduate?
Why are we using children as slave labour for to further someone's agenda? They're not convicts.
It can be anything -- I did 90 hours or so at the local hospital, and had some carried over from middle school. A girl I knew earned several hundred hours from working with the Girl Scouts. Another kid earned hours by learning and teaching CPR. Most of the students volunteered with their friends at the local nursing homes and soup kicthens for a week or so.
Only 60 hours were needed to graduate, but you get at least 10 hours for each year in middle school (in-class activities and the like), so the requirement is effectively reduced to 30. It's not an extraordinary difficult requirement to meet.
--j_k
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I don't care how difficult it is to meet. I do care that you're teaching kids the state can do anything with them they want and it's ok.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:If this kid is as bright as she's made out to be, she knew of this possibility.
I would like to point out that it is possiple for an incredibly bright person to make a stupid mistake that they do not fully understand the consequences of. If none of you have done this, you are far better people than I.
My anecdotal evidence references a time in highschool when I found a hall pass on the floor in the library. I picked it up and put it in my backpack. I knew it was wrong, but figured it would get me an in school detention at worst for having an unauthorized hall pass. Well, a teacher found it and I was facing suspension for theft from a teacher. I had no idea at the time that what I was doing was theft, but upon reflection, I can see how they thought it was.
I don't find it terribly hard to imagine a similar situation with the student in question. She knew she was doing something wrong, but honestly thought it wasn't that wrong and is now freaking out at the possibility of being expelled, a possibility she never considered.
If what the administration is doing is threatening overly harsh punishment to drive a point home and teach her an important lesson, more power to them. However, if they are seriously considering taking action that would so drastically affect the student's life, I, personally, can't see how it is warranted and believe it to be an extreme over reaction.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:I don't care how difficult it is to meet. I do care that you're teaching kids the state can do anything with them they want and it's ok.
They're already fully aware of that.
[edit] OK, that came off as dismissive. My point is that the hours are often attached to some in-class activity, so its entirely possible for someone to earn the 60 hours without actually doing anything outside of school. That's how it turns out for most students.
--j_k
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk:
quote:If this kid is as bright as she's made out to be, she knew of this possibility.
I would like to point out that it is possiple for an incredibly bright person to make a stupid mistake that they do not fully understand the consequences of. If none of you have done this, you are far better people than I.
Let me also point out that making a "stupid mistake" doesn't absolve you from the consequences of that mistake.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Still, I wouldn't support that as a requirement to graduate. The whole idea of forced community service pisses me off greatly.
My school was at least honest about it; in several places in the literature regarding how to fulfill the requirement, there are references to "mandatory volunteering" and "compulsary volunteer work."
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Let me also point out that making a "stupid mistake" doesn't absolve you from the consequences of that mistake.
But it is often a good reason to lighten the punishment for that mistake.
If this was just a lapse in judgement, then it reflects minimally on the student's character. I could imagine almost any high school student making such a mistake if the right situation arose.
quote:The whole idea of forced community service pisses me off greatly.
I agree to some degree. I like the sentiment behind teaching kids how to give their time for something, but I think forcing them to do it negates the whole point. If they are being forced into it in order to graduate, then they aren't really volunteering at all.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
"Voluntary decision" is not quite a "stupid mistake", vonk.
To be honest, I can see myself helping a close friend who, through some really bad stuff happening might fail, by fraudulently (possibly also through forgery) giving them 2 of my 38 hours of community service credit to let them through. I'm not sure if I would when faced with the decision...but I can imagine myself doing it.
But it would still be fraud and cheating, guys. Just because it's "for a good cause" doesn't change that. This isn't a "speeding to get the wife in labor to the hospital" situation, either. This is a "someone I know is in trouble, and cheating will get them out of that trouble" situation when you come right down to it.
Whether or not the student in question knew the specific consequences of this particular sort of cheating, nonetheless the student must have known (there is simply no way around this, Tresopax) that it was cheating. Smart people know that if you cheat, bad things happen.
I lack your imagination, apparently, because I can't imagine a student thinking that in a system in which x number of hours are required by each student, a student with surplus hours can give those hours to other students isn't cheating. You can hide behind "we don't know all the facts" all you like, but this is so probable as to be a given for the purposes of this conversation.
The student willfully decided to do something she knew was wrong and if caught, there would be punishment. Informing the university of her misdeeds is an obviously forseeable and reasonable outcome of her actions.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But it is often a good reason to lighten the punishment for that mistake.
It can be, but by no means does it need to be.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
The punishment does not need to be of any particular intensity. It is almost certainly a judgement call for whoever is handling this specific case.
If it were I that was handling the case, and the student was not fully aware of the consequences of her actions (as is very possible), but was then made aware of the consequences of her actions and thus learned her lesson, I would let it go at that. I see no need to seriously affect the rest of her life.
On the other hand, if, once she learned the severity of the act, she became andgry and disrespectful and did not make it clear that she had learned her lesson, I would, like others here, feel that she would jeopordize my standing as a trusted source of referal which could harm more students in the future. I would then tell University X of the situation.
I guess, for me, it completely depends on the attitude of the student. If she is honestly sorry and won't do it again, that's the whole point of the punishment, so there is no need to go further.
I wonder if TheSeeingHand will come back and give some more details about the situation so that one may judge better the potential outcome.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't actually think the act was all that severe.
I know it is supposed to be a certain number of hours for each student, but it's unclear as to whether the assignment is supposed to benefit the student or the community. You can make a case for it benefitting the community, in which case if one student does 2 hours less and another student does 2 hours more, there's no difference.
Basically, it is wrong to share hours because it is breaking the rules. I think in this case the rules are pretty random and arbitrary to begin with. Getting her kicked out of her dream school for it is a complete power trip.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I agree that the punishment should be molded to her reaction when confronted with her wrongdoing.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I still don't understand why the other student didn't just do the 2 hours once he or she realized that he or she was short.
It makes me wonder if this person may have been "collecting" a few hours from a lot of different people (to add up to a large number, e.g., if he or she hadn't done any) or if her or she had to cover up for having lied and said she's done some previously that hadn't actually been done.
Something about the story as presented seems off to me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: In my opinion, the kid should fail the course. Then, since that course it required for graduation, that means graduation may be delayed and the kid should have to finish the course in summer school or something before receiving her diploma. If that means she won't be able to attend the school she wants to, that's where the learning of a harsh lesson comes in. She can attend a junior college for the first year and re-apply to the university of her choice later. I think that's an appropriate punishment.
Agreed.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: "There's no logic in saying that any positive law penalty is a 'natural consequence' of any behavior."
quote: Notification of the college in the thread at issue was not a "positive law penalty."
The natural consequence of dishonesty is that others will discover it and therefore likely treat you differently. It's very different from an actual punishment.
The reason the girl was in trouble was because she had done something that was forbidden by the law of the school, so to speak. That is, each student had to do 20 hours of community service. The reason the girl was doing the community service was because the school had made it a requirement of the course, it was in the rules. The teachers/administrators felt she was dishonest because she broke the rules, not because the act itself was necessarily dishonest, or because of their own judgement.
If the school had said credits, hours worked, could be swapped, then even if an administrator or any other teacher had felt that what was being done was dishonest, then their telling the college would have been meaningless because the girl could have said that it was allowed by the school. Further, it is unlikely that many teachers or administrators would have felt that she was cheating if the rules had said that she wasn't.
That said, the idea that there is a 'natural consequence' to breaking a rule ignores the fact that, for a lot of rules or laws, there are a range of consequences, rather than one forced consequence, and that these consequences are artificially imposed by people, who are going to have a wide range of opinions on whether something is wrong or not, and what the consequences should be. To speak to this thread, there's nothing that says that an administrator has to tell a college, be upset with the student, or even do anything if they don't view what she did as wrong, or if they view what she did as a very small wrong, etc.
Saying that there is a 'natural consequence' to breaking a rule ignores this, it seems to me, fact of human nature and attempts to frame the argument in such a way that there is only one possible outcome with no room for argument, and attempts to short circuit the entire discussion of whether or not a wrong occured, the nature and seriousness of the wrong, the fact that people administering punishments can be stupid or blinded by ego, as is the case in Cow's thread, and the various other permutations that occur when discussing crime and punishment, wrongs and rights. To further use Cow's thread as an examples, I guarantee you that there are people saying that the kid should just shut up and take his lumps. 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The teachers/administrators felt she was dishonest because she broke the rules, not because the act itself was necessarily dishonest, or because of their own judgement.
At some point there was a falsification of some record for this to have happened. They felt she was dishonest because she lied. This was not wrong only because a rule existed it. It was wrong and an abuse of trust.
The natural consequence - not "the only possible outcome," which is a drastic change from "natural consequence" - of lying is that you will be thought a liar. The natural consequence of being thought a liar is that 1) other people will find out about the untrustworthiness of the liar, and 2) those others might alter the way they interact with that liar.
This girl is being protected from the natural consequence of her lies by the school's coverup.
quote:To further use Cow's thread as an examples, I guarantee you that there are people saying that the kid should just shut up and take his lumps. 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'
Your equation of the natural consequences of lying and "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" is fallacious. What this girl did was wrong absent any rules. Now, if the requirement could be fulfilled by another's hours, she wouldn't have done anything wrong. But she would have done something different - that is, not lie - had the rules allowed substitution of hours by another person.
The rules were the motive for the lie, not the cause of it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Well put, Dags.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Even given that it was a lie, I think getting someone kicked out of their dream school and flushing years of work down the drain is a punishment all out of porportion for the offense. It's a little disturbing to see it shrugged off.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Even given that it was a lie, I think getting someone kicked out of their dream school and flushing years of work down the drain is a punishment all out of porportion for the offense. It's a little disturbing to see it shrugged off.
But again: the school isn't the one doing it. She's doing it to herself.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I think getting someone kicked out of their dream school and flushing years of work down the drain is a punishment all out of porportion for the offense.
How are they doing this, exactly? If they are informing the dream school that this student cheated on this assignment and gave the nature of the cheating, I don't even see that as a punishment. That's them responsibly conveying this information.
Are people saying that they should cover up this information or even lie themselves so that the college doesn't find out about this?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:But again: the school isn't the one doing it. She's doing it to herself.
The school certainly is doing it to her - they are choosing how to handle it.
Like in the other thread, the teachers have a variety of ways to handle the situation. If they do it this way, they cannot pretend they wouldn't know what would happen and cannot escape their part in it.
Unless the prospective schools get informed of every event after acceptance - grades, reasons for all grades, fights, everything - then doing so would be unusual and harsh. It's too much.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina:
quote:But again: the school isn't the one doing it. She's doing it to herself.
The school certainly is dong.
Like in the other thread, the teachers have a variety of ways to handle the situation. If they do it this way, they cannot pretend they wouldn't know what would happen and cannot escape their part in it.
Unless the prospective schools get informed of every event after acceptance - grades, fights, everything - then doing so would be unusual and harsh. It's too much.
Did they NOT do this at your school?
My high school made it very, very clear they would report on your activities as a second semester senior to all all of your colleges. I suspect they did so in my case, and I suspect it may have had a lot to do with why I was only accepted by 2 of the 13 or so I applied to. "Unusual and harsh" to you, maybe - but it sounds like standard policy to me, and a damn good one.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My senior year was unusual for a variety of reasons, so my personal experience isn't relevant. But no, as far as I know, they didn't.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm pretty sure my school did. I'm not sure why their responsibility to provide accurate information ends once the student is accepted. Do you agree that they have this responsibility beforehand?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Your equation of the natural consequences of lying and "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" is fallacious.
Here is the thing. I don't agree with you. I would like to discuss this with you further, but by no means do I consider your take on this to be a cut and dried take on the situation.
I consider statements like the above to be patronizing and rude and not conducive to conversation. They're one of the largest reasons why I don't engage you in dialogue very often, because so much of what you write is, to you, cut and dried and there is no room for dialogue. To me, it seems far better to say something along the lines of,"I don't agree with you, here's why..."
I hope this makes sense to you. If not, then I don't know what else to say. No one likes being lectured to.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I disagree with Dag because I do not think that being kicked out or the manufactured punishments are natural consequences.
Natural consequences are exactly that - they don't need to be created or decided on. A natural consequence of lying could be that one's word is worth less, one becomes less trustworthy, one finds it easier to lie the next time, one treats others with less respect because lying it itself disrespectful and the cognitive dissonance of lying to people who don't deserve it may be too much to bear. One way to resolve that dissonance would be to stop lying; another would be to decide that they deserve it after all.
All of those are what I consider to be natual consequences. Getting kicked out of dream college is nowhere on that list.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:No one likes being lectured to.
I was responding to this:
quote:That said, the idea that there is a 'natural consequence' to breaking a rule ignores the fact that, for a lot of rules or laws, there are a range of consequences, rather than one forced consequence, and that these consequences are artificially imposed by people, who are going to have a wide range of opinions on whether something is wrong or not, and what the consequences should be.
I'm not quite sure why being told I'm ignoring something is different than telling someone they are drawing an inaccurate conclusion. I do not feel like I ignored those things, and I've explained why at fair length.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I think had I said 'Rivka is wrong because...', then followed with the quoted portion, then that would have been equivalent to what you wrote.
I don't know. Am I being too sensitive with Dagonee's response to me? Anyone else want to chime in on this?
It's certainly not unheard of for me to take offense where I shouldn't. If the board agrees that I am being oversensitive, then I will apologize.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Getting kicked out of dream college is nowhere on that list.
Again, the school is not kicking her out of anything. All we're saying is that the school should notify the college. From that point on, it's up to the college whether or not they wish to accept her.
You said a natural consequence for lying is that one's word is worth less. I agree. So, how about the teachers and/or administrators that wrote letters of recommendation for this kid? I tell you, if I'm a teacher and I write a letter of recommendation and commend a kid's character, then find out they cheat, I would feel obligated to let the college know that I am rescinding my recommendation. Otherwise, I risk damage to my own reputation. Why should I accept the natural consequence, as you put it, that my word as a teacher is now worth less?
I don't feel there should be any obligation on the part of the school to overlook this transgression just because it was this girl's lifelong dream. It was in her hands to make her dream a reality - it sounds like she did everything she needed to in order to make it happen except one thing - remain academically honest. That one thing, though, is a pretty important one.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Anyway, he threatened to tell University X about it and get her expelled.
We are working with an uncertain set of facts.
Perhaps the second half of the quote was an exageration, either by the student, her teacher, or the original poster. Either the student or the original poster, it's fine. If by the teacher, then the teacher is on a power trip and should be recused from making the decision.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
From the college's perspective, I certainly would like to know if a student cheated. I have had undergrads lie to me and after confronting them, I have been pretty convinced that they have lied before and been given leniency. And from that, they have learned that being smart or talented or whatever means they don't have to be honest, because no one is willing to punish them fully and "ruin" their lives.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Then again, you don't know how many students have made a mistake and then, upon given another chance, never did it again. You only become aware of the recidivists.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: From the college's perspective, I certainly would like to know if a student cheated. I have had undergrads lie to me and after confronting them, I have been pretty convinced that they have lied before and been given leniency. And from that, they have learned that being smart or talented or whatever means they don't have to be honest, because no one is willing to punish them fully and "ruin" their lives.
I would like to point out that I don't think cheating is the right word for what's going on here, as she overqualified the requirements for her class.
Lying seems to me to be closer to the actual offense, but the fact that she didn't do it for herself, and that she would derive no real benefit from it, leads me to believe that a better way to put it was that she was being nice at the wrong time. Right impulse, wrong ends. So, I could see her being given a pass on this, and I think the school did the right thing by threatening her with some of the worst possible consequences for her actions, reminding her that what she did was wrong and not to do it again.
In no way do I think the school should have told the college and jeopardized the career of what seems to be a good student and an achiever. I think that would have been far out of proportion to the offense.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I would like to point out that I don't think cheating is the right word for what's going on here, as she overqualified the requirements for her class.
I do think cheating is the right word. Yes, you're correct in that what she did is lying, but it's more than that. Academic records were falsified. That means there was intent to attain a grade not properly earned. The fact that the grade wouldn't have benefitted her directly is beside the point. Both people involved should fail either the assignment or the course, depending on school policy. The other person could not have cheated without her involvement. She is a participant in the cheating incident, and she should be punished the same way.
Whether or not the school should notify the college depends on several factors, in my book. 1) Did school officials write recommendations for this student to the college? If so, they should contact the college and let them know circumstances have changed, and they cannot recommend the student in the same manner as they originally did. 2) Does the school have a policy of reporting such incidents to colleges? If so, they should follow that policy and not treat this student any differently.
If they wrote no letters, and there is no policy to report such things, they should punish her to the extent allowed by school policy and then drop it.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Back to my previous example as the thread has moved way on... If there isn't an explicit prohibition from a professor that old homeworks can not be studied from, and yet some people have them from an archive and other don't, while it's not breaking any rules, is it fair?
Maybe the attitude is slightly different in engineering. I mean when you take the P.E. exam, you are *allowed* to bring any reference material you like. You aren't going to pass the test unless you know what you are doing.
That was kind of the philosophy for the most part in all my engineering classes as well. One professor used to say "you can bring in anything you can carry" until someone carried in a small grad student. He was impressed by their ingenuity and I believe the grad student was allowed to remain for the test.
They also sort of viewed the ability to obtain old homework from previous classes as sort of a survival of the fittest mode. If you didn't have the skilz to obtain those old tests through fair means or foul(which were often very necessary in order to know what to study to pass) you didn't deserve to be an engineer in the first place.
Oh yeah, and group assignments... forget equality. In the real world if someone doesn't pull their weight you still have to cover for them and your presentation had still better be good... so it was like that in class too. In a severe case the loser in the group would be docked a letter grade but that didn't happen very often. It was more suck it up and deal.
AJ
I think some of my profs would have *approved* of sharing the credits the way this hypothetical friend did. I'm trying to parse for myself the difference of moral basis and I'm having a hard time doing so. Suffice to say, the way the real world works, is if you don't get caught it's ok, (not that this is the ethical thing but it's the way the world really works) so they would have been more upset that she got caught than anything else.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
AJ's post highlights a lot of what I was trying to say. That is, whether there was an offense, the nature of the offense, and the degree of the offense are all very much up in the air. It's certainly not clear to me that she should be face negative consequences for what she did.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Belle, When you become a teacher, I suspect your view point will change. If I had a student in my classes who had been top of the class, who was very motivated, talented, and ambitious as well as concerned about her class mates, I'm sure I would have spent time mentoring that student. If she'd asked me for a letter of recommendation, I would have certainly talked to her about her goals. If I'd written a letter of recommendation for her, it would have been because I knew she had potential and because I wanted her to succeed. I really doubt that this one incidence would have changed my entire attitude toward this student.
Kids make mistakes. I would have tried to teach her why her actions were wrong and the seriousness of what she had done. But I certainly wouldn't try to get her kicked out of the college of her choice for this alone. No ones future should ride on one stupid mistake like this. If I thought highly enough of her before this incident to give her a strong letter of recommendation, this one incident wouldn't be enought for me to turn from being this students advocate to being her adversary.
When I write a letter of recommendation for a student, I do so based on my direct experience with that student. If that expereince has been positive, I will agree to write a letter. If it has been negative, I will tell the student to find someone else to write the letter. When I write my letters, I clearly explain my relationship to the student (such as this student was in 2 of the classes I taught and worked on a special project with me) and base my recommendation on that direct experience. So for example, I might say "While this student was in my class she demonstrated respect and integrity by doing X". I would never say "She always demonstrates respect and integrity". This has two advantages. When an admissions person reads the letter, I've given some specific examples and not just superlative language. Second, I've made it very clear what the limits are of my recommendation so its very unlikely that I would ever feel the need to retract what I had written. Finally, I would never have included information in a letter that I had heard from a third party. Unless I've personally observed it, it would be unethical for me to put it in a recommendation letter.
Unless something happened that was directly relevant to the comments in my letter, I would never retract the letter. So pretty much, unless I found the student had plagarized a report that I had praised or something comparable, I wouldn't have a reason to retract my letter.
Finally, Let me say that I don't know enough about the situation to know whether the school would be out of line to report this to a college. Normally, schools don't send everything in a students file to colleges. Most colleges will get final transcripts and letters of recommendation from high schools but not everything on the students record. Unless the high school normally sends this type of information to every college every student applies to, or the college has specifically requested such information from the high school then I don't see a reason why they should send it in this case. If the incident will appear on the students transcript, then the college will get it any way. Any acceptance to college is prerequisit on satisfactory completion of the final semester in high school. If this cheating incident had changed this students grade in a previous course or some other information that the school had already sent to the college, then the school would have a clear ethical obligation to report it to the college. If it does not, then the school would be well advised to document and verify every detail they share with college about this incident or a libel suit could be brought against them.
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
Well, if the young lady who is the subject of this thread turns out to be the liar that some have painted her to be, and she ends up being rejected the U of X ivy league university in question, she at least has a potentially great and lucrative future in advertising, politics, or certain segments of journalism to look forward too.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Belle, When you become a teacher, I suspect your view point will change. If I had a student in my classes who had been top of the class, who was very motivated, talented, and ambitious as well as concerned about her class mates, I'm sure I would have spent time mentoring that student. If she'd asked me for a letter of recommendation, I would have certainly talked to her about her goals. If I'd written a letter of recommendation for her, it would have been because I knew she had potential and because I wanted her to succeed. I really doubt that this one incidence would have changed my entire attitude toward this student.
Perhaps.
But I was a teacher for 10 years, and I agree with Belle. Moreover, finding out that a student that I had thought well of had lied and cheated most certainly would change my attitude toward them. Entirely? No. But I would have trouble trusting them, and would no longer feel comfortable writing them a recommendation letter -- unless the incident had been quite some time in the past and the student had clearly learned their lesson. Which is less likely to happen if the expected consequences are not applied.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: It's certainly not clear to me that she should be face negative consequences for what she did.
Do you acknowledge that there are rules against cheating, and what she did constitutes cheating, regardless of degree?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:That is, whether there was an offense, the nature of the offense, and the degree of the offense are all very much up in the air.
I'm not sure where you're getting this, Storm. Or at least, it sure seems like reaching to me. Wasn't it stated that this was against the rules, and thus an offense? And since it was against the rules, and since I've never heard of community-service hours requirements for anything not requiring documentation, isn't it also pretty clear that there was some documentation falsification?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Kids make mistakes. I would have tried to teach her why her actions were wrong and the seriousness of what she had done. But I certainly wouldn't try to get her kicked out of the college of her choice for this alone. No ones future should ride on one stupid mistake like this. If I thought highly enough of her before this incident to give her a strong letter of recommendation, this one incident wouldn't be enought for me to turn from being this students advocate to being her adversary.
Rabbit, this is exactly what i was trying to get at.
It's disturbing to me that there is absolutely no room for mistakes. It's the equivelent of a zero tolerance policy, and zero tolerance policies are quite draconian.
I'm thinking of all the stupid mistakes I've made in my life, and while none were like this, several sure could call into question my professionalism and my desirablity as a student.
For instance, when my mother got sick, I skipped class for three days and missed a quiz and had the guy I had a crush on be the messenger to my teachers. He didn't want to but he was my friend, and my teachers were unhappy with me and it put him in an awkward position. Honestly, that was dumb - I shouldn't have done that. I can't even blame being befuddled or scared. It had seemed like a great way to get this tall, gorgeous guy more closely involved with my life. I'm sure that was obvious to everyone. Thank heavens my teachers didn't write me off as an idiot and a lost cause then.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Do you acknowledge that there are rules against cheating, and what she did constitutes cheating, regardless of degree?
quote: I'm not sure where you're getting this, Storm. Or at least, it sure seems like reaching to me. Wasn't it stated that this was against the rules, and thus an offense? And since it was against the rules, and since I've never heard of community-service hours requirements for anything not requiring documentation, isn't it also pretty clear that there was some documentation falsification?
BannaOJ's post gives a lot of good reasons why what the girl did at the school is not bad in all contexts and, in fact, might be the right thing to do in many (that is, working together to overcome an obstacle). That's kind of what I was going for.
That it is against the rules at the school is clear, however I think many people here disagree as to 1)whether that rule is a 'good' rule and, thus, 2)how 'bad' it is to break that rule and 3) how the girl should be punished (if at all) for breaking the rule. I think there's probably a 4) lurking around of 'children' as future citizens can't be taught that rules are something you can violate at will.
I stand by my assessment upthread that the school basically did the right thing. I also stand by my statement earlier that I am wildly ambivalent about requiring community service for children as a requirement to graduate. I also see no reason not to believe that the girl is an excellent overall student given her grades and, as far as I know, doesn't have a history of violating the rules. So, to me, the best good is that it's made clear to her that there could be serious consequences, but not actually take the chance of injuring her chance at the best things in life by informing the colleges and possibly keeping her from going to the best school. Edit: As kat and rabbit say, everyone makes mistakes.
I don't agree that whatever the consequence, this is something that the girl is doing to herself, as the school must decide on the punishment.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It's disturbing to me that there is absolutely no room for mistakes. It's the equivelent of a zero tolerance policy, and zero tolerance policies are quite draconian.
There's plenty of room for mistakes. Further, it's not as if the college is necessarily going to kick her out. By failing to tell them, however, the school is denying them the opportunity to decide what types of people it wants to admit to its community.
I wouldn't recomend someone who did this. Had I recomended them, I would rescind that recomendation. That's not ruining anyone's future - it's preventing them from using me to lie for them.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
And, as I said, I don't see the school fulfilling its responsibility to give accurate information to the college as a punishment. I just don't get how people telling other people who they have a responsibility to what she did as them punishing her.
If she had done this in her Junior year, should they have told the school? How far does the "She really wants to go to a good school." motivation allow the high school to withhold information? If she gets a really bad grade, can they just not report it? Gets in a fight? Cheats on a test? Where's the time and level cut-off here?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Had I recommended them, I would rescind that recommendation. That's not ruining anyone's future - it's preventing them from using me to lie for them.
Would it matter why you recommended them int he first place? Is everything good you said to be erased by one thing? One mistake wipes out all good will? I think if your good opinion of the student was tenuous enough that one mistake wipes it out, then the teachers should have passed on recommending at all, because they couldn't do it honestly in the first place.
I don't think one mistake - and I agree that the behavior was bad - is enough to wipe out everything good someone has done.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Would it matter why you recommended them int he first place? Is everything good you said to be erased by one thing?
That's not erasing everything good. It means I won't endorse them.
This isn't a mistake - it's a lie. It's the falsification of an academic document - the same types of documents I would rely on, at least in part, to make the recomendation.
I take recomending very seriously, and it's an enormous thing. It puts my word on the line, and the reputation of my future recomendations. I wouldn't harm future students by risking my own credibility this way.
I might consider revising the recomendation to account for the mistake - that is mentioning it and stating that I liked how the recomendee handled her mistake (assuming I did - "It's not a big deal" wouldn't qualify). The choice would be that or silent rescission of the recomendation (as a teacher making a recomendation, not as an administrator).
The principal's certification I had to get filled out when I applied to undergrad required a statement about whether I had ever cheated. I would feel an ongoing duty to update that were I the one who had signed that form.
She falsified an academic record. This is a BIG deal. It shouldn't ruin her future, but the school she's been accepted to should have the knowledge to decide for itself whether they want her.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If she had done this in her Junior year, should they have told the school?
This would have required a positive lie for the school I applied to, not just silent omission.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
BTW, were I on the admission committee, I'd probably still let her in, but I would require some kind of show of contrition and attendance at a seminar on academic integrity. I would also place her on a zero tolerance policy going forward and make her sign an agreement to that effect.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:were I on the admission committee, I'd probably still let her in, but I would require some kind of show of contrition and attendance at a seminar on academic integrity. I would also place her on a zero tolerance policy going forward and make her sign an agreement to that effect.
This I like, because it makes it serious, but gives her another chance. I've made a lot of really dumb, really big mistakes, but rarely the same one twice.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Rereading the original post, it is never said that anyone gave her a recommendation. Most of the reasons shown for telling the school are based on not wanting to misreprisent someone, or not wanting to be made to lie on the students behalf, or something else based on an obligation the school has to tell the univerity.
If the student got into University X on her own, or with recommendations from other instituions, not including the highschool, would it still be appropriate for the school to call the university? The only prior communication you can assume is the sending of the transcript, and that isn't falsified. In this situation, wouldn't it be more appropriate to punish the student within the highschool, not attempting to effect any other part of her life?
The school then only has a commitment to report the student's grades for the second half of her senior year. If these grades, as a result of her cheating, are not good enough to guarantee admission to the school, then so be it. But if they are good enough to get in, then what business is it of the highschool how much the Uni knows about other matters? They are not obligated to communicate anything. What are they going to do? Follow the girl around to all of the colleges she applies for and tell them that she cheated, out of some misguided sense of responsibility to "teach her a lesson"?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
Cheating is a big deal. This girl cheated. It's not OK, and it's not a silly mistake.
The high school should follow whatever their cheating policy is. Their cheating policy is probably not to
quote:Follow the girl around to all of the colleges she applies for and tell them that she cheated, out of some misguided sense of responsibility to "teach her a lesson,"
so they should not do that. But perhaps it means she fails the class. That will likely get reported to the university in a final transcript, so it may amount to the same thing. I don't think they should make an exception for this student because she's worked really hard. Yet they should not make an exception the other way, either. If the school's usual response to cheating is a warning, then that's what she should get. I don't think I'm writing anything new; that's what most of the posters in favor of "punishment" have been in favor of.
Recommendations are another issue altogether and are separate from the punishment/ consequences the school may impose. I actually think they come under the heading of the natural consequences katharina was discussing earlier. Many recommendation forms I've completed ask me to evaluate a candidate based on character, then explain my evaluations. Like other posters (Dagonee, rivka) I would not write a recommendation for a student I knew to have been academically dishonest. If I wrote a recommendation and then the student cheated in my class or another class, I would contact the institution and rescind or revise all or part of my recommendation. If the school asked why (or if the nature of the form required me to elaborate), I would. Then whatever the admissions committee decided would be up to that committee.
(Do schools still require recommendations from a guidance counselor? If so, that person might feel the need to adjust the recommendation...or maybe not.)
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Incidentally do we have any reason to actually believe the initial poster of this thread was saying something genuine to begin with? Maybe we don't have reason to dis-believe it, but we haven't had any more posts from that person either.
AJ
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
True but it's been an interesting discussion, regardless.
Posted by TheSeeingHand (Member # 8349) on :
Just an update:
She got off with a day of in-school suspension several weeks later and had to write an apology letter to her teacher.
A month later her teacher told her she couldn't go on the trip she planned for the school's political awareness club, of which she is a co-founder.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
You know what I meant.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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