quote:

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I think the big mistake in schools is trying to teach children anything, and by using fear as the basic motivation. Fear of getting failing grades, fear of not staying with your class, etc. Interest can produce learning on a scale compared to fear as a nuclear explosion to a firecracker.

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quote:

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has anyone here noticed the irony of teachers teaching democracy in a dictatorial classroom

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Originally posted by Dagonee:

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has anyone here noticed the irony of teachers teaching democracy in a dictatorial classroom

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Not since I recognized the difference between governing and teaching.

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I love when someone else has already responded to a thread and expressed what I was struggling to find words for.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
but when you're growiing up you learn how to be, when you get used to sitting and listening and obeying in school, whats to change when after 11 years of that conditioning, is going to help you be independent and innovative
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
also, of the alumini of these schools 80% go on to college and no student has ever not been accepted to their college of choice
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Learning to be independent and innovative is not incompatible with also learning to obey authority. All are useful and necessary skills in adulthood.

As for the claim regarding their alumni, I'd like to see the source of these stats. Also, what percentage of students graduate (versus dropping out in favor of another school or just not graduating at all)? And what size population over how many years are we talking about?
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
varies by school, look it up if you want
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
there's also interviews w/ schools/students on youtube http://youtube.com/watch?v=rgpuSo-GSfw
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Generally speaking, the onus of providing proof is on the one making the claim.

I wonder if these schools tend to graduate students who believe in the use of capital letters and punctuation.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
I agree about the bias associated with the source of data, and acknowledge it. I am currently a straight-A honors student in a public high school. I did not feel it was necessary to use formal writing conventions in a conversational settng such as these forums. I found this idea intriguing and aspired that members of these forums would consider the advantages and demerits of this metod of schooling. For your information, I looked into such alternative types of schooling because of my urge to defenstrate myself while listening to my teacher drone on about subjects I already grasped.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
The video you linked to is interesting. However, the general theme seems to be best expressed by one student near the end, who claims that being forced to learn something he's not interested in violates his spirit.

Well, I trust that at some point he will find out about the real world. Where I have to be able to balance my checkbook and keep track of finances and stick to a budget, even though I hate all those things passionately. There is a real life skill in learning to tolerate people and situations that you dislike.

Which is not to say that there are no problems with traditional classrooms, and certainly I am not claiming that every teacher is excellent. I do wonder how practical this kind of school is -- the teacher-to-student ratio must be really high! -- on anything but a very limited basis. It is certainly not a magic bullet, which the trailer sure seemed to be trying to imply it is.

As far as formality, formal language is not necessary. However, many of us poor benighted older generation find it difficult to read more than a few sentences without the visual cues provided by capitalization and punctuation. Certainly it cannot have escaped your attention that the vast majority of Hatrack posts contain both?
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Summerhill, anyone?
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
As a recently enlisted member of the Hatrack forums, I admit the type of language used byhe posters did not catch my notice. (I've only posted 16 times). Sorry, I'll try to be slightly more conventional in how I post, but I'm not making any promises, I'm part of the spell check and internet generation, after all.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Welcome to Hatrack jlt! Hope you find the place to be to your liking!

quote:

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Originally posted by jlt:
I did not feel it was necessary to use formal writing conventions in a conversational settng such as these forums.

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I found this idea intriguing and aspired that members of these forums would consider the advantages and demerits of this metod of schooling.

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For your information, I looked into such alternative types of schooling because of my urge to defenstrate myself while listening to my teacher drone on about subjects I already grasped.

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Originally posted by Noemon:

Those people tend to be the sand in our collective Vaseline, I'm afraid.

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These schools seem like they offer freedom and independance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jlt:
P.S. Sorry for all past and future typos

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I thought you're of the spellcheck generation?

Seriously, the occasional typo is unlikely to annoy most people here.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Euripides, I only wish it were original to me! It is a fun one though, isn't it?

Jlt, I wouldn't worry too much about typos. It was really more the lack of capital letters and properly punctuated sentences that was grating, and it's clearly not something that you have a problem with now that you're aware that they're preferred. And, you know, we all make typos and slip up grammatically now and then (especially when complaining about other people's grammar and spelling. This is Davidson's Law).

As for your concerns about school, what grade are you in right now? What do you want to do when you finish high school? Have you talked to your parent(s) about the problems you're having? If so, what was their response?
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
I have earned independance. I have never smoked, done drugs, drunk, etc. I have had a 4.0 for 4 years straight. I have worked my hardest in all my classes regardless of the teacher. I have worked as a counselor in training at a summer camp. I've treated my parents, other authority figures, and peers with respect; I have proved my maturity again and again. Still, I have no freedom. In addition, the Declaration of Independance gives all people a right to life, LIBERTY, and property. The founding fathers did not believe that freedom must be earned, it is a fundamental right.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
I'm in 9th grade, but am taking several classes with sophmres, juniors, and seniors. I am not sure yet what I want to do when I finish high school, I'm fairly sure I'll go to college, but I haven't had the chance to try things. I'm interested in journalism, fiction writing, medical science research, filmmaking, quantum mechanics, so I don't know, but I want to find out. I haven't told my parents about my problems and don't intend to unless I need their involvement to enable me to take action and change my life. We do not have a very close relationship and say less than 200 words a day to them, many days I do not see my dad or brother at all. I run my own life outside of school. My parents don't care about my grades, I do, I do my best because that seems like the right thing to do. I decide what I do and when and how. I decide what food I'll eat this week, my parents do not know me well and so it would be futile to go to them for advice, especially when they're more likely to simpy get upset that I'm adding to their stresses in life. Mostly, I want to know what people think about the advantages and disadvantages of public and democratic school, I'm pondering them myself, but I have a lack of experience in the real world, I do not know what the result of a public high school education is or it's necessity, so I ask others.
 

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Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 

quote:

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Generally speaking, the onus of providing proof is on the one making the claim.

I wonder if these schools tend to graduate students who believe in the use of capital letters and punctuation.

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quote:

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Perfectly capitalized and punctuated retort involving use of the word 'defenestrate.'

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Still, I have no freedom. In addition, the Declaration of Independance gives all people a right to life, LIBERTY, and property.

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Originally posted by jlt:
I don't have free time. I'm posting this while intermittently correcting an essay, and I have no more time to discuss this as much as I want to because I have the essay to finish and more homework after that.

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Originally posted by Will B:

I'd think a Summerhill-type education could bomb, for those who'd rather socialize or lay about. OTOH -- did it? jlt's information suggests it didn't. Maybe freedom really doesn't make people into slugs.

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My experience at university and summer schools suggests that it doesn't. If I really was free to go to any class I like, I would spend many more hours in lecture halls than I do. But I'm one of those people who is considering sneaking into history lectures for which he is not enrolled.

I don't have any statistics to indicate whether I am in the majority or perhaps a rare minority.

Structured schooling is more of a 'no child left behind' approach.
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I'm just curious, why is it that adults always feel that the best way to pluck up despairing teenagers is to tell them, "It's just going to get worse"? This has always been a matter of some confusion for me. Do people think it's comforting? That it'll make them want to work harder? What constructive purpose does it serve?
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

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What constructive purpose does it serve?

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In retrospect these years form not only the least agreeable, but the only barren and unhappy period of my life. I was happy as a child with my toys in my nursery. I have been happier every year since I became a man. But this interlude of school makes a sombre grey patch upon the chart of my journey. It was an unending spell of worries that did not then seem petty, of toil uncheered by fruitation; a time of discomfort, restriction and purposeless monotony. . . This train of thought must not lead me to exaggerate the character of my school days. . . Harrow was a very good school. . . .Most of the boys were very happy. . . I can only record the fact that, no doubt through my own shortcomings, I was an exception. . . I was on the whole considerably discouraged. . . .All my contemporaries and even younger boys seemed in every way better adapted to the conditions of our little world. They were far better both at the games and at the lessons. It is not pleasant to feel oneself so completely outclassed and left behind at the very beginning of the race.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Euripides:
[QUOTE]. But I'm one of those people who is considering sneaking into history lectures for which he is not enrolled.

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::has actually done this::

::also bought a lot of textbooks for classes he wasn't taking, just because they looked too interesting to pass up when he was buying his own classes' text books in the campus bookstore::

::also skipped a lot of his classes the first couple of years of his undergraduate experience::
 

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Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Noemon:

::also bought a lot of textbooks for classes he wasn't taking, just because they looked too interesting to pass up when he was buying his own classes' text books in the campus bookstore::

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It was very tempting, but they're so expensive these days!
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
These days? They've always been expensive! Back in my undergrad days, I paid upwards of $100 to $150 CDN for each text. How much is it now?
 

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Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 
$300 AUD for an arts course if you're lucky, in many cases a more; from what I've heard from my friends.

My architecture course doesn't go by textbooks though, so I'm an exception.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

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Still, I have no freedom. In addition, the Declaration of Independance gives all people a right to life, LIBERTY, and property. The founding fathers did not believe that freedom must be earned, it is a fundamental right.

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There are no required classes, and sometimes no requirement to take classes at all.

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I'm in 9th grade, but am taking several classes with sophmres, juniors, and seniors. I am not sure yet what I want to do when I finish high school, I'm fairly sure I'll go to college, but I haven't had the chance to try things.

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(sorry for the double post)

Considering all of the above, have you considered just skipping, and going on to college now? I know others here (AJ, Tom_Davidson, and others) went on to college many years before the "magic age". If you feel you are getting nothing out of where you are now, why not fast-forward it to an environment where you do have more freedom over what you choose to study?

FG
 

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Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
 
Back in my school days, there was a guy in my year who came in on average about once a month, and still managed to average straight A+'s. I averaged 2 days a week and managed to average straight A-'s. We both failed each and every class because we didn't attend enough. We weren't warned this was important until our attendance records that year were already too bad. So I dropped out and he did the next year at a private school (I couldn't afford to go to one).

School sucks. At least here it does.
 

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Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
jit, I'm a literature teacher at a charter school in south Texas, and I understand where you're coming from. Schools can and should include students more deeply in making decisions about curricula and rules, just as parents ought to include their children more in family plans and goals. Unfortunately, power corrupts and memory is short: we get into positions of authority over young people, and it is simply much easier to impose our will on them than to negotiate for a common purpose. Sadly, you will never stop seeing this occur in your life, and so dealing with it now will prepare you emotionally for the drain that this annoying reality puts on your soul.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
jlt,

I actually posted about the Sudbury Valley School some months ago, but I didn't know tht other schools like it existed. Thanks for the heads up.

I think one of the things that 'Democratic Schools' do is that it forces children to get along with, to interact with, other people even more than they otherwise would. Far from just letting kids do what they want, my understanding is that at places like Sudbury valley school, the emphasis is not only learning for its own sake but forcing children to negotiate with their peers what happens from everything to what they eat to punishment, and the teachers were part of that process (I think).

In other words, the schools are not really 'do as you please'.

One thing you have to do when you write is to know who you're speaking to, my friend, and sell the product accordingly.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
I'm going to offer a ray of hope for teenagers everywhere...in my case, at least, I have a lot more free time now as an adult than I did as an undergrad, and even to some extent as a high school student. (My high school was not particularly academic, so the homework load was light.) I teach now in a school system where the homework load is outrageous for college-bound kids. During the week, many of these students go to school, maybe do an after-school activity (which a lot of them feel obligated to do in order to be "well rounded"), then do homework until 11 or 12 at night. This is certainly NOT my experience as an adult.I go to my job, maybe do an hour or so of work outside of school hours (more on the weekend), then the rest of the day is mine for going to the gym, spending time with my husband, watching a movie, reading, etc....

I don't have kids and that makes a big difference in how much "free" time you have. Still, when I was in school I did SCHOOL. Now that I have a job I do my job, but lots of other fun things, too.

About democratic schools: I'll echo what FarmGirl and others have said. I think they'd be great for people who want to learn -- and thus probably for jlt! Would that all students were like that. As a middle school teacher, I'm a gentle dictator with some of my students, telling them, "I want you to learn it more than you want to not do the work...so let's take the path of least resistance together."
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jlt:
Sorry, I'll try to be slightly more conventional in how I post, but I'm not making any promises, I'm part of the spell check and internet generation, after all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liz B:
As a middle school teacher, I'm a gentle dictator with some of my students, telling them, "I want you to learn it more than you want to not do the work...so let's take the path of least resistance together."

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Great line!
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 

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also, of the alumini of these schools 80% go on to college and no student has ever not been accepted to their college of choice

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Each year ARC provides funding for several hundred projects throughout the Appalachian Region in support of these goals. These projects create thousands of new jobs, improve local water and sewer systems, increase school readiness, expand access to health care, assist local communities with strategic planning, and provide technical, managerial, and marketing assistance to emerging new businesses.

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{In Hale County, Alabama} College-going rates in the five high schools have increased between 22 and 50 percentage points. All five now have higher college-going rates than the national average, with Greensboro West High School achieving a 100 percent rate in 2003.

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{in Missisippi} The gains in college-going rates in those schools ranged from 2 to 55 percentage points with an average gain of close to 29 percentage points. Three schools now have college-going rates over 90 percent and in one school, Jumpertown High School, 100% of its senior class graduated and then continued their education.

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linky

So, I was right - rates over 80% are certainly not unheard of. (Incidentally, I found other links from new articles and such across the country - it's an easy googling excercise to determine that while the national rate of college attendance by high school grads is indeed under 80%, it's not hard to find examples of many schools with much higher than 80% rates.) Even better, though, I found out about a cool program that is apparently making great strides in helping traditionally rural and impoverished areas of our country.

[ January 26, 2007, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I would imagine the bit about college acceptance isn't supposed to be the main selling point of the school. As you've pointed out, many schools do this.

Think of the school more as a religious school that teaches children how to be a certain type of person and to have a certain type of outlook on life. That's probably why most people send their kids to the school. At least, of the people that I know who have sent their children to the school, that's why they were doing it. I think these types of schools are trying to tackle some of the same problems that home schoolers, and various other private schools are. It's not just social conservatives who don't like public schools, you know.


Beyond the fact that the acceptance rate isn't all that remarkable in general, I think when you factor in the fact that the school(s) are doing it without the kind of rigid hierarchy that a lot of people insist is necessary for proper civic and moral development, I think that shows that the school specifically is doing something right.
 

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Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
 

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Is that statistic particularly outstanding?

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quote:

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Originally posted by PrometheusBound:

quote:

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Is that statistic particularly outstanding?

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It's pretty dreadful, actualy. For a private school, that is. The vast majority of graduating classes from prep schools have 100% college acceptence ratings.

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All private schools are not prep schools.
Do the democratic schools bill themselves as prep schools?
(asking, not needling)
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
I found it enlightening to read everyones input, you all had a lot of good ideas about it, which is why I posted in the first place. When I referenced the Declaration of Independence I knew it was not a legal document, only a manifesto, I was merely pointing out that one of the ideals of this country is freedom for all, although I am not a legal adult, I am still a human being. Theses democratic schools, as far as I know, mainly function without teachers, at least teachers in the traditional sense. Students don't have classes where a teacher lectures and they take notes, sometimes the students study concepts with other students, and they do seek the help of the staff members when they need someone with expertise in a subject to help them learn about it, but I don't think that the teachers play that big a role in the functionality of these schools. The students can go to the adults if they want, but mostly the adults let the students run their own affairs. In my school, independent study isn't possible until you have passed all the AP courses or that subject. For example, although I am taking French 3/4 now, I will have to take AP French Language and AP French Literature before I am eligible for teacher-supervised independent study in that subject. I understand that not all kids are highly motivated like me, I personally have a brother who has gotten straight D's and does very poorly in school. But that's because he doesn't care about what he's learning. He is a math whiz, way beyond me, he just gets it, but he still fails the class. He can create computer programs and spends a large portion of his time on his computer. He doesn't plan on using much of what he learns in school and so he doesn't bother with it, the downfall is that he is having a lot of trouble getting into college. I decided that to figure out how kids my age would react to thins, I'd just start asking them general questions. That's what I did today as much as Ii could. I asked people what they'd do if they had a week where they didn't have to worry about school or schoolwork and if they liked school in general. The results varied a lot. There were several who felt that they liked school. Some said they didn't but only one person who I asked expounded about how she loves school. I must take into account though, that I could not conduct I wide survey very easily. I was asking a girl who I knew in middle school, Karen, about this. She doesn't like school, but she doesn't hate it. Having spent time with her though, I see the toll school has taken on her. She breaks down in tears because she gets a B on a quiz. You see, her dream is to go to Penn. State. She loves to read, and wants to be an engineer. I asked her why, she said she likes inventing things and making things and designing things. But shes stuck stressing over whether she got the right answers on her homework. That's where I just think things are wrong. The thing about skipping grades though, is that you become... prejudiced against. Both the older and younger kids resent you for making them feel inferior. Also, to graduate from my high school you have to have a specific number of credits for each subject and all total. That includes 4 English and Math credits (you earn a credit by passing a class for the whole year, half credits for semester courses)but it effectively means that it is near impossible to graduate more that a half a semester early. I do go to Model U.N. and film club, occasionally to others as well. With Model U.N. you research everything you can about a nation and it's politics and issues and how it relates with other nations and about current issues. It's truly interesting, but the people in the club are seen as slightly insane for wanting to spend time learning about the issues and writing position papers because in general, learning is seen as an obligation only, not something you'd do because you want to. An issue with the teacher lecturing situation is that it all depends on the teacher. Some teachers are better than others and rule benevolently, some don't. In 6th grade my Social studies teacher did not like me and therefore drove me to tears in class without batting her eyes. In contrast, I had the best English teacher EVER in a 7th and 8th grade pullout class who truly truly wanted us to learn, and guaranteed us A's as long as we learned, on tests you corrected your mistakes, if you bombed an essay, she walked you through it and it became a near-perfect paper. Now in high school the top English students are almost all from her class. Don't worry, I do know how to spell, my mother made me and my brother learn spelling young, she is adamant about that. I also know proper grammar, so I wouldn't be lost without spell-check, but it does make life easier, and takes care of a lot of typos. College-bound student percentages though aren't all that reliable. My school touts our over 95% college-bound student rate, but every student has to at least apply to a college. No, democratic schools do not by any means call themselves prep schools and do not pressure their kids to go to college at all. The schools believe that the students should decide what's right for them, so definitely not prep schools. Doing REAL things would also help, probably. For example, we do labs in science in an effort to increase "hands-on" learning, but everyone does the same lab, one that has already been proven by the last year of kids, and the last year, and which has no purpose in the real world. It would be so much more interesting if what we were learning and doing and testing mattered to people. I've been considering this deeply. So far, I've come to the conclusion that I want to go to the democratic school in my state, the Alpine Valley school, and do a trial week there. Even if I don't end up going there, I just want to see firsthand what its like. However, when I'll get the time to actually do a trial week I don't know. I also have discovered that if teachers acted more like students were fellow human beings with independent minds, everyone would be happier. A real life example from today:
History, first period, studying women in the west: an hour full of note-taking and lecturing as we all longed for our pillows
It was clear that no one really cared and the teacher was obviously taking down to us.
English, seventh period, the class was talkitive, the teacher decided, and said, it was just because we had come back from lunch and had energy. I had the teacher read over my essay. Since I already learned most of what we're doing in English, I knew my essay was good, but I asked about some points where I thought it would need work. When I persisted in asking how I could improve my essay, she said "Don't worry, it's an A paper". I knew I'd get an A, it was a good essay, I wanted to work on my writing skills, but that shouldn't matter, as long as I get the right letter. Then the teacher talked about how we were doing poetry next using DIDLS (acronym for analyzing poetry, did that also, last year). People asked if we would be writing any poetry. She said no. How many people will truly employ the skill of poetry analysis in their work?
Math, eighth period, Spent entire time going over quizzes and homework
After school: I stayed for a few minutes to talk to my math teacher. Most of the class agrees he's not the best teacher, but he's a nice guy and I chat with him when I have a few minutes. He talked to me like an equal. We discussed how cliques form in smaller versus larger environments, about how friendships form. My brain was more active in those say, 10 minutes than throughout the hour long math period.
Anyway, for any of you have actually read this far , basically, all I know about democratic schools is off the internet. The library doesn't carry the few books concerning them. If I do get to go to a democratic school at any point, I will definitely gain from it, whether it's a good school or not. I know that this post seems like its truly favoring democratic schools but honestly, I have doubts about them. This post mostly explains why I find good points in them in comparison with my experience in school.
 

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Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 
Just a friendly tip jlt; you might want to use more paragraph breaks. Even on my 1600 x 1200px monitor I feel a bit like this.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
I thought about that about halfway through but then I was like, next time, I didn't feel like rereading everything and inserting them. Hope you still read it, despite the format.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Holy crap, paragraph breaks, Batman.

Sorry, no, not reading - give me too much of a headache. I can't focus on that much text without space. Unfortunate as I would like to read what you have to say.
 

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Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 
Well I did jlt, but only because I was in a generous mood.

It also helps to quote the question you are responding to.

Good luck with the trial week. Let us know how it goes.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I think such a school might be a wonderful environment for an intelligent, intellectually-motivated person as you appear to be, jlt. It might have for me as well; I'm not totally certain. There is definitely the consideration, though, of the value in learning to do things that do not come easily to you. I wonder how many of my honors high school math students would take no math at all if they had the option, and I don't think that's acceptable, because I think they benefit from the experience.

Beyond that, though, everyone is not like you or me. There is a romantic theory that everyone is intellectually curious, yadda yadda, and my experience is that this is simply not true. (Specifically, in case it's not clear, I am calling Zeugma's theory poppycock. ) I work at a school that is currently a traditional medium-large public school, with all the problems you might imagine that entails. But if you go back about ten years to my school's origins, it was very much like you describe. It was called the Celebration School (part of it still is called that, because we eventually split into a K-8 school and a high school), located in Celebration, Florida, and it is extremely well-known in pedagogical circles. Several books and countless articles have been written about it. About half of them tout what an amazing success the school was, and about half focus on what a dismal failure it was. It all really depends on the axe the author has to grind (as is true of all pedagogical "research," actually). I'm not a professor of education and I don't have a book to peddle, but I was there. The fact is, some kids really pushed themselves in all sorts of creative directions, and learned about things that interested them. Many more spent most of every day socializing in the couches that were ubiquitous in our "hearths" at the time. Many students were actively disrespectful and contemptuous of teachers and other adults. (Interestingly enough, while I've been at a large, integrated, socioeconomically diverse public high school for several years now, and a teacher for twelve years, total, it was at the old Celebration school where I was actually threatened with bodily harm--twice.) There was also an impressive drug problem for a school centered in such a high socioeconomic stratus. (In fact, one of the authors of a book partially about the school, an NYU anthropologist, spent a year in town smoking pot with the kids, as part of his particular research.) When the FCAT-based grading began, the school earned a C. (In contrast, the current K-8 school has been an A school for each of the last six years.) My point is not that FCAT grades are the end-all and be-all, but that all kids were clearly not self-motivated to learn. That's a piece of romanticism that just doesn't describe reality.

You know, what happens is that intelligent, motivated people, such as those who tend to post here, simply can't imagine that everyone else wouldn't be just like them, given the opportunity. I totally understand this; I find myself instinctively teaching to the type of kid that I was. But just because we are curious doesn't mean that curiosity is commonplace or natural.

I'll give a second example that hits closer to home for me. I adopted two special needs kids from DCF custody. I love them and am devoted to them, but they are different from me in many ways! We thought that one of them (whom I refer to on internet forums as "Mango") would benefit from a Montessori approach to pre-kindergarten. This is where I first began to realize that it was a myth that all kids were naturally self-motivated to learn from interesting things, as long as we silly adults would get out of their way and facilitate instead of trying to teach. They had all kinds of cool centers in the classroom--I saw them myself when I toured the school. Unfortunately, Mango just didn't care. She spent two years (at $5,000 a year) playing at the play-dough center. While I'm sure that play-dough had educational benefits, as part of a balanced approach, I frankly don't believe she learned much in that time.

So no, I don't believe our paradigm of education should shift to anything like what you describe. If classrooms--like my own--are dictatorial, they are at least generally benevolent dictatorships. I think some kids would probably flourish under a different approach, and I wouldn't stand in their way. I also believe that there are serious problems with education as a field these days, whose solutions will be complex and multi-faceted. But I do believe that a teacher is more than a facilitator and planner--s/he is, or should be, the one with the maturity, knowledge, education, and, above all, perspective, to know when students need to do things they don't think they want to.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"This is where I first began to realize that it was a myth that all kids were naturally self-motivated to learn from interesting things, as long as we silly adults would get out of their way and facilitate instead of trying to teach."

I agree with what you said, Icarus, but I am picking up on this, because it reminds me of the "let the children explore with math manipulatives and they will magically learn math without the book" theory.

Some absolutely abhor hands-on learning. Some like it just fine, but never make the supposed natural leap to understanding. SOme do make the leap. I learned math that way as an adult. I sure wish someone had provided that style for me as a student.

I also think of Waldorf, which has a theory that formal reading instruction should not begin until thrid grade. As you mentioned, this would be fine for a child with no disabilities, but for a child with learning challenges,it is incredibly harmful.

I also agree that not all people are curious about academic learning. And more and more, I don;lt think they should have to push their way through an academic curriculum and should be given other options in high school.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 

quote:

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also agree that not all people are curious about academic learning. And more and more, I don;lt think they should have to push their way through an academic curriculum and should be given other options in high school.

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quote:

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All private schools are not prep schools.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jlt:
A democratic school is a school that centers on democratic principles and participatory democracy with "full and equal" participation from both students and staff...

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Ahem
Perhaps you'd care to just link to sites in the future, instead of just lifting from them verbatim, huh?
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I guess I misunderstood you, then, Zeugma. (btw, you left out my smiley in the paragraph you quoted. ) I thought you specifically were advocating that all children were naturally intellectually curious. I'll post a more thoughtful response to what you really meant a little later, when I have more time.

-o-

quote:

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The vast majority of private secondary schools are, wish to be and/or bill themselves as prep schools. That includes Catholic schools.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jlt:
Actually, I didn't get the text in the first post from wikipedia, I got it from answers.com. Still, I'll cite sources of information in the future if it makes people happy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fugu13:
Yes, that's certainly true. PB is talking about a type of self-categorization, though, not a general aim. Almost all schools would, I hope, try to make kids capable of attending college. A prep school is a subset of those, a school whose purpose is to prepare kids for college, and whose resources are focused on that end.

I don't know too much about lighthouse, but I don't think either St. Charles or Lighthouse would tell you the reason they existed was to prepare kids for college.

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I misunderstood. I know that there are prep schools, but I didn't realize he was asserting at all private schools are prep schools.

I think that most private schools do strive to teach children better than the public schools in their areas do; because they need to, in order to convince parents to send their kids there.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Not necessarily. They need to convince parents that they do something better -- be it by providing religious education, a safer environment, a more college-prep education, a more art-intensive education, etc.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
A very close friend of mine is a teacher in a private school and she says that a pretty good percentage of the students in their school are there because they've been kicked out of public school for discipline problems. Given the number of stories she has for me, I'd say it's a higher percentage than most of us think it would be.

So, private schools may not necessarily need to prove they're better in any way, simply the fact that they'll take kids that don't have anywhere else to go may be part of their appeal to some parents.
 

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Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
 
There are private schools for children with special needs and private reform schools. They are a tiny minority, however.
 

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Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
 

quote:

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Actually, I didn't get the text in the first post from wikipedia, I got it from answers.com. Still, I'll cite sources of information in the future if it makes people happy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:

quote:

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Originally posted by jlt:
Actually, I didn't get the text in the first post from wikipedia, I got it from answers.com. Still, I'll cite sources of information in the future if it makes people happy.

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jlt, this is not just a matter of making people happy. If you don't know why, it would be worth investigating.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Belle:
A very close friend of mine is a teacher in a private school and she says that a pretty good percentage of the students in their school are there because they've been kicked out of public school for discipline problems. Given the number of stories she has for me, I'd say it's a higher percentage than most of us think it would be.

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quote:

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I wonder how many of my honors high school math students would take no math at all if they had the option, and I don't think that's acceptable, because I think they benefit from the experience.

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quote:

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You know, what happens is that intelligent, motivated people, such as those who tend to post here, simply can't imagine that everyone else wouldn't be just like them, given the opportunity. I totally understand this; I find myself instinctively teaching to the type of kid that I was. But just because we are curious doesn't mean that curiosity is commonplace or natural.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jlt:
I know, I know, it's a plagerism, giving credit, issue. I'm running into my whole, but this is an online forum, not a report mentality.

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And this is a whole "life" issue, not "just a report" issue.

Not many people here are going to have as much confidence in what you say now, at least not for a good while. If you'd lie about that (and passing off someone else's words as your own is lying, plain and simple), then we don't know what else you'd lie about.

But you are young and thoughtful, and you are earnest, and that counts for a lot. There are also not many people here who haven't done as bad or worse in younger days, whether in public or private, and so that perspective is helpful, too.

But you will still have to clock in some good time to show yourself trustworthy now. That's why this is a life thing.

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Edited to add: Ask me about some of my more stellar and memorable mistakes some time. I will happily do a little penance by telling you in great detail just how I screwed up and what dastardly natural consequences came of it.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

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If you'd lie about that (and passing off someone else's words as your own is lying, plain and simple), then we don't know what else you'd lie about.

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For what it's worth, I don't consider what you just did to be "lying;" "lying" would be actually claiming that those were your words.

I DO think it's lazy -- and, more importantly, it's a bad habit to get into. Cutting and pasting text from one source and into your own "mouth" will not help you develop the critical analysis and communications skills that are absolutely essential for success in intelligent society. Many people here will feel you've been "dishonest" if you quote something without even the slightest attribution; I won't, but I think you're cutting corners that you shouldn't cut.

In general, you should be able to take anything you find online and make it better -- more apropos, more amusing, whatever -- by putting your own spin on it. It's almost always worth the effort. And if you don't have the time to make the effort, just post the link to the site with the information and act like you're doing everyone in the thread a huge favor by saving them the effort of a Google search.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:
For what it's worth, I don't consider what you just did to be "lying;" "lying" would be actually claiming that those were your words.

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When you put it up under your name, you claim it as yours. At least, by my read. I can't make sense of putting posts up assigned to names, otherwise.

[This seems to be a general assumption -- e.g., it's why we say to one another, "When you said X" or "Didn't you say Y?"]

Nonetheless, I do strongly concur with the rest of your post, Tom.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
Tom explained my motives a bit more than I did. I did not want to write up my definition of democratic schools. However, i wan't trying to claim the text as my own at all, I was just lazy, I suppose. I wanted to have the text directly in my post so people could see it without haveing to follow a link. In any case, I won't not cite or link again. (Hopefully) case closed.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
As a tip, a really clear way of doing that would be something like

Linky

quote:

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All the text you're quoting here.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rivka:
*giggle*

quid, that's an actual site you just linked to!

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Uh oh. Is it good or bad? I hope it's not, you know, the really really bad stuff.


Oh, cool! It's spruce stiles (whatever those are) for doors and stuff. Nothing naughty.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I wish my doors had spruce stiles...
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Here's the thing: a lot of colleges have common curriculum requirements, which might be a shock if you've spent a lot of time only studying things that you chose.

-pH
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
So if you could choose to put a 'smart' child in democratic school or public school (or a combination) which would you choose and why?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'd probably put a kid in the private prep school I went to. I mean, socially I was miserable, but I gots me some good learnins that made college a much easier transition.

-pH
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
But what about in regards to general success in life, after college? So, to up the stakes, imagine that this kid is going to be president, where would you send him?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Um, the same place. I don't see how that makes any difference.

-pH
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
Success in high school and college is not necessarily a direct path to success and happiness in life.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'm not saying that they necessarily are, but I still don't see how that has any bearing on my answer to the question. If I had to choose for a smart kid, my first instinct would be a small private prep school.

-pH
 

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Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
 
I would never put my kid in a democratic school unless it was the only resort by which I could avoid them being in an abjectly terrible public school system.

I'm very fascinated with the concept of democratic schools in theory, but I'm also wary of their operation in practice. My sociological studies of individual academic development -- as well as my repeated experiences with really ridiculous democratic schools -- leave me to think it would be pure guesswork and bad odds that my kids would benefit from a democratic school arrangement.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
You only refer to posters you agree with by name?

I am unconvinced that playing is inherently evidence of curiosity. Further, I was not just making an assertion; I wrote about my experience working in such a school. You have, in a later post, asserted that those kids hold themselves to higher standards. My experience says that by and large they do not.

EDIT: Also, your story sounds like an elaborate justification. If you see this going on in yourself, why don't you choose to change it?
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
Icarus, I have not meant to only adress to certain posters by name, once again, this is only due to the fact that I am new to theseforums and am not sure when it is right to address a poster by name.

I'm sorry I didn't consider your previous post whlie writing my post, it was ignorant and unintelligent and iconsiderate on my part. I had only skimmed the posts and was distracted, sorry.

I think that we will have to agree to disagree, I think that children are naturally curious, and you do not, we are different people and have experienced different things and so we will not always agree.

I see your point that not everyone would do well at a democratic school, they wouldn't. But I don't think that the public school system is without its flaws. I don't know what the solution is. I also accept the fact that you have had experience at a democratic school while I have not, and that gives you more say on the subject.

I can also see having students take mandatory classes that actually had value, like basic math, if they needed to learn it. As a high school student, I think kids my age either have the perspective to decide what to learn or need to develop it while there parents are still there as a safety net rather than living in a dictatorial world where we lose a lot of our power to make our own decisions and learn how to make decisions. But then, maybe that's just the rebellious teenager in me.

You make a good point that my story seems like a justification because as I wrote it I was trying to figure out how I feel in my own mind, as opposed to writing with a clear message (probably a better idea).

I do try to change myself, and change my life to be more content and adapt to my situation, but that's more complex tan it sounds, at least from my point of view. Just bear with me in the fact that I am still a teenager trying to figure out just who I am and what I want.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
No apologies are necessary--that's why I put a smilie on my post. Certainly you don't need to berate yourself like that.

I certainly don't think the public school system is without flaws, and I have said as much. I don't know the solution either, and for one thing, I don't think there is one. I don't think you can serve every population equally well. The needs of the elite and those of the bottom rung are frequently at odds with each other. (For example, research indicates that ability grouping benefits high-achieving kids but hurts low-achieving kids. Well, you either help one group or the other; I am not aware of a middle ground here.)

And we can't even agree on what effectiveness looks like!

I will say that US public education does a much better job than it is given credit for in educating "the masses." Now, it may be a one-size-fits-all education, and it may be uniformly mediocre, but very few countries can even begin to compete with us when it comes to measuring the gains of our lowest achieving students. We may be doing a disservice to our top students in the process, though.

As far as solutions, the obvious (to me) first steps are not pedagogical at all. Pay teachers enough to create a healthy competition for teaching jobs, so that we are not so desperate that we need to keep inadequate teachers. For a guideline, pay teachers a wage commensurate with that paid in other occupations that require a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Second, demand that teachers demonstrate expertise in the topic(s) that they teach. These aren't enough to fix the ills of public schooling in this country, but I think they are a necessary first couple of steps.

As far as pedagogy goes, I am very "capitalist" in this regard. I am all for a healthy competition of ideas, such as democratic schools, magnet schools, mixed-age grouping, classrooms without walls, etc. Then let's watch and see what happens. My experience leads me to believe that different approaches work well for different students and for different teachers. This being the case, it would be ideal to put teachers and students in the type of environment most conducive to their success.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
Thanks Zeugma

I agree on your thoughts about better teachers as well as a capitalistic approach. The only problem I see with the capitalistic approach is that, at the moment, not all the types of schools are free and it would be difficult to measure the success of each student. Still, I think a capitalitic approach and making teaching a job that is desired enought that not just anyone can do it would be positive changes.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
*nod* Measuring quality is beyond problematic right now--whether in teachers or students. (More so in teachers, I think.)

A couple of other things I think would help a lot, regardless of the pedagogical approach: smaller schools--smaller classes are a no-brainer these days, and we're actually making slight progress on both class sizes and teacher salaries. However, tons of research shows that, independently of class size, school size matters. Students perform better in schools with fewer students, where they can know their peers and know all the teachers, and develop a sense of community. So, of course, we build enormous schools of two or three thousand or more. I know there are economic reasons for this, but if our values were what we say they are, we would work on fixing this.

Second, remove students who hinder the education of their peers. I don't care where to. Alternative schooling, drop them out, it doesn't matter. Students who don't want to be there, don't intend to work and pass anyway, and are just going to interfere with everyone else's success. I am not of the school of thought that everyone should have an education rammed down their throats: I think you have to meet us partway.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I like this Icarus fellow. Someone give him a movie deal or something.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 


(Now you won't recognize me on the street!)
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
All you Cubans look alike to me, anyway.
 

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Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
 

quote:

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Second, remove students who hinder the education of their peers. I don't care where to. Alternative schooling, drop them out, it doesn't matter. Students who don't want to be there, don't intend to work and pass anyway, and are just going to interfere with everyone else's success. I am not of the school of thought that everyone should have an education rammed down their throats: I think you have to meet us partway.

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I would like to second this idea. I liked the concept of school when I was in middle and high school. The problem I had with going was that so much time was wasted by kids who did not want to be there, and either could not or would not learn the material. (I suspect the latter in most cases.) So the teachers got burned out, and the burned out teachers burned out students like me, who liked to learn but could not because nothing was being taught.

I went to a fairly small private school until high school. I was probably the smartest student in my grade. I was always complaining about the slower kids making the class drag on. For a long time, I was told by authority figures that not everyone was as quick as I was, and to be more compassionate. That point of view had some merit, and I did try to develop my empathy, but to a large extent the authority figures were wrong. It was not the slower kids who tried that were the problem, it was the kids who just did not want to be there. Why waste my time, their time, the teachers' time, and the taxpayers (or parents for private schools) money?

I support democratic schools in the hope that the uninterested kids will get the hell out of the way of those students (quick, slow, or in between) who actually give a damn.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I agree with the principle, but I think that, in some places removing the students who hinder the education of those around them would drop the enrollment by 60%.

Especially in really bad public schools, it seems like the kids who want to learn are almost scared to do so. At least if my friends who are teachers are to be believed.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
*shrug* So drop the enrollment by 60%.

Maybe those kids would value education more if they knew there was a serious possibility that they would be kicked the hell out. Or maybe not.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Or maybe we could look at alternatives to traditional education. I've never understood why we have gone with "one size fits all" education. It clearly does NOT fit all. Once upon a time, people used to train for careers in other ways, such as apprenticeships. Nowadays, we require a high school diploma for just about any job imaginable and a college degree for most. Yet the vast majority of the time spent in high school and college was wasted because very little of that information is used on the job.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
Yargh!!!

Isn't there a value to education beyond its economic value?
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Liz -- There is a value to education beyond its economic value for those who find knowledge and the love of learning to be intrinsically valuable and motivating. I haven't seen studies, but I would venture to guess that this is not a majority of the population.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 

quote:

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*shrug* So drop the enrollment by 60%.

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I agree, but you know what the next question is: where the heck to we put all those people?
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Put 'em to work in factories, making a quarter of minimum wage, making cheap t-shirts for me to buy!
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
But then what will the kids in Indonesia and Taiwan do?
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:

quote:

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*shrug* So drop the enrollment by 60%.

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I agree, but you know what the next question is: where the heck to we put all those people?

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quote:

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There is a value to education beyond its economic value for those who find knowledge and the love of learning to be intrinsically valuable and motivating. I haven't seen studies, but I would venture to guess that this is not a majority of the population.

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quote:

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I just get frustrated because our society values education mostly as a means toward economic success, which overlooks many of its most important benefits.

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Emphatically agree.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Liz, I know what you are saying and I so WANT to agree with you. I have always found learning to be worth more than money, and so does my husband. I believe we can instill a love of learning in our son and in any future children we have. (He's 14 months and already loves to read...he turns the pages and babbles as if "reading" the books...it's so cute!) I think we can benefit from knowledge of history, from social studies -- in a democratic society I think these kinds of things are essential to good citizenship.

But one fundamental flaw in our society that is reflected in our education system is a misunderstanding of equality -- we need to offer equal OPPORTUNITY, but we cannot all be the same. I have no power to force a youth who can't be made to see the intrinsic value of learning the proper use of a semicolon when he knows he's going to get a menial job working on a factory line and probably never read again after he leaves school. I can't make him love to read, although it is a passion of mine. I'm not even sure I want to. I like the diversity of humanity. It is interesting. (yeah, yeah...old Chinese curse)

I agree that we probably have very similar ideas on education. I just wish I knew what you think we can do for the children who either only see an economic value in education or worse -- who see no value in education (economic or otherwise). I'm a practical woman. Give me practical solutions and I'm on board.
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
Most of the teachers now have to provide "objectives" for the lessons each day, good grief, it is painful to sit through their explanations of how learning the pointless fact of the day is going to forever improve our daily lives. For example: What was the colloquial name for the Farmer's Alliance and who was it founded by? Yup, I really need to know that. I see that they're preemptively answering the why do we have to learn this question, but in effect avoiding the issue.

The one thing I see as particularly infuriating is when teachers say that a certain thing is worth doing for experience in problem solving and getting used to completing assignments. Problem solving is not something that needs to be taught thousands of times. At some level it's intrinsic, maybe going over problem solving skills and strategies a few times, but watch how adept I am at problem solving: Problem: I am hungry, Solving: There is food in the kitchen, or I could go buy food, or I could wait for my next meal Solution: I will go get food from the kitchen because...
The point here is that you solve problems every day and so doing dozens of assignments to practice that skill is pointless. Same goes with completing assignments. I have completed math assignments just about every day of the school year for approximately 6 years, I really think I can do it by now and have had enough practice.

Mostly though, above is just the thoughs going through my head as the class sighs while the teacher explains how vital the lesson of the day will be to the rest of our lies.

I agree with Christine though that a problem in education is the misconseption of equality with equality of opportunity. That's what annoys me about the new NCLB measures. They mean that although I could teach some of my classes, I cannot accelerate them. It means that even though I find school painfully dull, I can't go at my own pace.

As for economic vs. for the sake of learning value of education, I think why there is pressure to focus on the economic value of education because it is 'useful'. I think education for education's sake is a great way to make people disliike learning. I.E. I am happy to learn for the sake of learning if the topic is interesting, I think that quizzes, homework, and tests on subjects that don't interest me and have no obvious use in life are a great way to piss students off.

Liz, from the point of view of a teacher, how does education make students better people? (please omit reading literature as literature always imparts ideas about the human condition which could fall under the heading making srudents better people)

Oh well, in the end, education is what it is, maybe it will change, and hopefully for the better. At least it gives you practice in interacting with a wide variety of people.

Please acknowledge that some of this borders on a rant about my having to study vocabulary such as the words "potion" and "quest" in my HONORS high school english class.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
jlt -- You sound like a jaded student.

I actually do think problem solving is important and improves with practice. Studies show that even teenagers have an amazingly low ability to predict the consequences of their actions. Now, the way the teachers try to get their students to practice this skill may be flawed, but I can't fault the attempt.

As for NCLB -- I think they should have called it no child gets ahead. It is one of the biggest reasons that I wish the federal government would get their sweaty mitts out of education and leave it up to the states and local school districts.
 

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Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
 
jlt, we actually had to cover the parts of speech in my dual enrollment Humanities class because most of the kids had never learned them. At 17 I had to go back to underlining the subject once and the predicate twice for a week. It was not only sad, but I wasn't sure why it mattered at that point. Even without formal training, all of these students were perfectly capable of writing a (basically*) grammatically correct sentence. So what if they didn't know a noun from an adverb?

I half agree with you Zeugma. Enthusiasm is a great thing, but I think it's important to be able to find the interesting facets of the subject. I was always bored by Henry VIII and all his wives. But I found his relationship with his sisters and other heads of state that I find fascinating.

History should be less about dates of European wars and more about what made a society rise and work and fall. I don't think we ever covered Africa, Asia, or South America except in passing. It was all Europe and North America. You'd think in 12 years we could move beyond the same dozen events.

There's my other suggestion. Less repetition between grades.

*Hatrack has taught me that there are a bazillion teeny rules that no one either knows or uses in colloquial English.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"But one fundamental flaw in our society that is reflected in our education system is a misunderstanding of equality -- we need to offer equal OPPORTUNITY, but we cannot all be the same."

I agree.
And, though it is rather a trite expression at this point, I always tell my students, "Being fair does not always mean being equal."

Kids need to learn this, and it needs to be taught to them explicitly. I think that if kids were shown from an early age that each of them is learning what they need to learn, they would not be as quick to jump on others for getting "more" than they are getting.

Two of the students I had last year were at least two years ahead in math. As fifth graders, I could have dropped them in an algebra class. This year, I asked their teacher if they could come and trian my students in banking(our class economy). They were coming up during their math class once a week. After a while, I guess other kids decided it wasn't fair, and that they should be able to go, too, so she stopped letting anyone come up.

All she had to do, really was say, OK, here is a pretest of the unit we are working on. If you can pass it with a ___ or above, you can go up. If not, you need to learn it.

Long story short, I think we do value "equality" in a way that is different from the original intent in the Declaration.
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
This is such a great conversation.

Christine wrote:

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But one fundamental flaw in our society that is reflected in our education system is a misunderstanding of equality -- we need to offer equal OPPORTUNITY, but we cannot all be the same.

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I have no power to force a youth who can't be made to see the intrinsic value of learning the proper use of a semicolon when he knows he's going to get a menial job working on a factory line and probably never read again after he leaves school. I can't make him love to read, although it is a passion of mine.

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I agree that we probably have very similar ideas on education. I just wish I knew what you think we can do for the children who either only see an economic value in education or worse -- who see no value in education (economic or otherwise). I'm a practical woman. Give me practical solutions and I'm on board.

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Required classes are just fine when they're taught by excellent teachers. So I guess it's too bad we make it so hard for excellent teachers to teach in this country, eh?

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Liz, from the point of view of a teacher, how does education make students better people? (please omit reading literature as literature always imparts ideas about the human condition which could fall under the heading making srudents better people)

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Ack! But that’s what I teach! Well, anyway, I’m delighted to hear the underlying assumption that my subject area is intrinsically valuable to all human beings. Seriously, though…I’m not sure how other subject area teachers would answer that question. In English—writing makes you a better person because it requires introspection, noticing details about your world, organizing your thoughts, and developing the ability to think critically about ideas. Every other aspect of English (vocabulary, editing, language study, spelling) should contribute in some way to making students better readers, writers, speakers, listeners, or thinkers…if it doesn’t, then it’s a waste of time.

Let’s lump art and music together with English, because they’re just another kind of text and thus also “impart…ideas about the human condition,” just like literature. (Nice phrasing, btw.)

Science? Values of patience, trial and error? The fact that it’s a particular way of looking at the world? Perhaps the same for math. I have a hard time with these, because I know what I got out of them, but I wouldn’t know how to convey that to an uninterested student. I can be a passionate learner in these subjects (with the right teacher), but I’d probably be a mediocre teacher, who could convey the information without being particularly inspiring.

Foreign language & social studies should increase students’ awareness that there are other ways of looking at & thinking about the world. These courses should make students aware of humankind’s capacity for love and for evil. History especially deals with the human condition.

I am not and never would advocate an identical curriculum for all students, but I think that many of the essential ideas can remain the same at multiple levels of instruction.

And as a side note, since it came up in some of the earlier posts, NCLB isn’t as wholly terrible as some people believe. It requires schools to look closely at subgroups who aren’t meeting state standards. For example, a school might have a 96% passing rate on a state reading test (which is fabulous), but what if the remaining 4% are all economically disadvantaged students? The school should look closely at who those students are and why they’re not meeting standards, and then make a plan to help those students. Without NCLB, the school could continue to ignore that 4%.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not a NCLB supporter in its present form. For one thing, I think we need to have a much more rigorous conversation about our standards. But the idea behind it is important. Not all students should be expected to achieve at the same level, but schools need to pay attention to WHY they’re not.
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 

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Not all students should be expected to achieve at the same level, but schools need to pay attention to WHY they’re not.

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Required classes are just fine when they're taught by excellent teachers. So I guess it's too bad we make it so hard for excellent teachers to teach in this country, eh?

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If Larry is the smartest kid in my class, then he should be doing different and “harder” work than the rest of the class. “Harder” is in quotes because it’s not harder for him; he’s being challenged at approximately the same level as all of the other students. (This is essentially what Elizabeth was saying above.)

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recently had a conversation with two mothers who said that they did not teach their children anything before going to kindergarten because they didn't want them to be bored. In a totally separate conversation, another mother expressed to me that her advanced child would just have to learn to be patient and wait for the other children because that's the way it is. Maybe I'm rocking the boat here, but I want to know WHY that has to be the way it is and if we couldn't do something better.

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I couldn't agree more. As a parent, you'll probably be pleased to know that one of the newest educational buzzwords is differentiation. The idea behind it is that "equal" does not equal "same," and that students should be completing different assignments and even sometimes learning different things based on abilities, talents, and interests.

That said, sometimes advanced children do need to be patient and wait for the other children. But then those advanced children should be working on something ELSE. (Well, and in class discussions, sometimes advanced kids need to shut the heck up and listen to the others, because maybe they could learn something from a kid who has a different experience, even if he's not as academically gifted. Can you tell I'm struggling with one of my advanced learners right now? *cough* Hermione Granger *cough*)
 

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Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
 
We currently pay teachers 34.06$ per hour, on average. That's not terrible pay; in some areas, it's even 44$ per hour.

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009612
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
You probably shouldn't break it down by hour, because that assumes that school hours are the only working hours for teachers. Instead, figure out how much an average salary is on a monthly basis, assuming a 2-month summer break. Then compare it to 12-month salaries for other professions that require an undergraduate degree. Then consider that some states are moving toward requiring a master's degree, & compare it to other professions that require graduate work. And remember, the point is not that teachers aren't paid enough--the point is that teachers aren't paid enough to attract skilled people away from other higher-paying and more respected professions.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
You know, my math in second grade was entirely work at your own pace. We had these different colored folders (I think it started at red and went to black, then purple? I don't remember). The folders had explanations of the concepts and practice problems. And once we could demonstrate that we understood that folder, we moved on to the next one. The teacher would help anyone who was having trouble, but I think she only spoke to me once; she pulled each student aside when he or she got to the division folder in order to explain everything. I wish it was possible for all classes to be like that.

-pH
 

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Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 

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(Well, and in class discussions, sometimes advanced kids need to shut the heck up and listen to the others, because maybe they could learn something from a kid who has a different experience, even if he's not as academically gifted. [Smile] Can you tell I'm struggling with one of my advanced learners right now? *cough* Hermione Granger *cough*)

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I like Hermione...she reminds me of me.

The only difference is that somewhere in mid-elementary school I came up with a system: Hand goes up until teacher calls me once. After that, I only raise my hand if no one else volunteers to answer. Only problem was, when I went to school there were a LOT of times when no one volunteered to answer....at least I tried!
 

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Posted by jlt (Member # 10088) on :
 
When I first started typing this post, I tried quoting all the points made that I wanted to respond to, and then gave up, so I'm just going to reply without quoting for time's sake.

Christine- I agree with you about the "no child gets ahead" reality of NCLB. I think that testing is important to know where students are. My math teacher gives quizzes just about every day to make sure people know what they're doing. But the key is that we're being quizzed on what we're supposed to be learning. On state standardized tests I find myself answering questions about things I haven't studied in years. Testing should not be done on such a broad scale because it does not test what a student is actually studying.

One point I was trying to make though is that at some point repetition just becomes pointless. If completing math assignments teaches perseverance then after 6 years of completing math assignments almost every single day then haven't I had enough practice persevering and completing tasks?

You point out that teenagers are unskilled at forseeing the consequences of their actions, in some cases this is very true, but I don't think classroom learning about consequences will fix this. Teenagers lack experience and trying to teach something that is mainly taught in life is futile.

Zeugma and AvidReader: I agree that a good teacher can make a huge difference in whether or not what is being taught is interesting, and that there is a definite shortage of excellent teachers. One reason is the shortage of incentives to become a teacher.

Another idea that is often overlooked is that students can be teachers. When I was younger, my cousins and I would play "school" and as I was the eldest by several years, I would usually be the teacher. The result was that my cousins learned things that I was learning at the time. Even now when they visited recently, I was working on a project for my science class and they were interested so I told them about the concepts we were learning. But in school talking is basically forbidden in class, even talking about the subject at hand. I get yelled at for quietly explaining a concept or problem to my friend. Also, one great way to learn somethin is to teach it, when you can explain something to someone else, it's a good implication that you understand the subject.

Liz- With your Larry/ Jenny example, why shouldn't you try to explain to Jenny the patterns of world history and why they're significant. In the case of Larry, teachers generally don't try to make up harder work for Larry because it means more work for them when they're already swamped with teaching 20 other kids, so Larry does the same thing. I think pH's teacher had the right idea, you can't teach each kid individually but you can give them all the material and let Larry get through it all and move on to more and and then help kids who move at a slower pace, or have Larry help do so.

With the example of giving the novel that you thought the kid who hated reading would like, that's a good idea. Rather than making a whole class read the same novel and having only one or two students really take something away from it, let kids pick their own novels to read or recommend novels to them. For example, in my pullout English class, we had to read a book of our choice each month and either take a quiz on it or write a book report on it. I chose the book reports and every book report really got ino the meaning of the book. It gave you more freedom to look at the book an analytical way. In contrast, my whole English class had to read Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea but almost noone really loved it. I'm not suggesting that classics like OMS aren't worth reading, but I think that if we had all read novels of our choosing and then analyzed them using the techniques being taught, the class would have been much less miserable.


I also completely agree that less repetition between grades would be amazing, after studying the pilgrims every year since Kindergarden, I feel I'm throughly grounded in that subject.

Another thing I see is that a lot of the time, when you're allowed to explore a subject without having to take notes on it, it seems a lot more interesting. For example, my history teacher came up with a new policy, if you get an A on a test you'r exempt from the written homework out of the textbook until the next test, but if you don't get an A on that test, back to homework.I like this system, but I also think it would be nice if we just had to learn the material but at our own pace(like in pH's second grade math class).

I completely agree with AvidReader that we should study more history than just that of Europe and North America. I also agree that we should study the patterns of history more than the events, the rises and falls of civilization. While studying events may inform you, patterns of human actions can help today's civilizations learn from the mistakes of the past.

Elizabeth- I agree with you that if someone scores well on a pretest then they shouldn't have to relearn the subject, unfortunately, in every class I've taken, even if a student scores perfectly on a pretest, they still have to do the coursework on that subject.

You also make a good point on fairness not equating equality. For example, in middle school, seventh and eighth grade, the Gifted and Talented teacher started a pullout class for the top 25 English students based on test scores, writing samples, and teacher recommendations. as I mentioned before, those of us in her class are now at the top of our various 9th grade English classes, but apparently we were lucky because the school decided to cut out the pullout class.

I agree that better students can still learn from "worse" students in debates, but much of the time the student refuses to call on the better student even if they're the only one who has anything to say. Also, it is truly frustrating when better students are forced to listen to worse students who don't understand the issue. For example, in my history classe's current event discussions, I keep up with current events so I have a generally better grounding, but the teacher refuses to let me point things out and limits me to about 4 comments during the discussion. It's frustrating, for example, when the kid next to me says how using new nonlethal weapons would provoke a nuclear attack and that we should just leave Iraq now, he doesn't even consider the perils of leaving a war torn country and I'm not allowed to point that out.


I think pH's second grade math teacher was really onto something. I think that it also works with the concept of democratic schools. What if classes were more like that class, you still have to learn the material, but were allowed to do so at your own pace. So you keep the basic structure and the teachers and scheduled classes but give more freedom within that setting and let the teacher explain what needs explaining to each student.

I too came up with a sort-of method to stop being such a hand raiser. Basically,the same as yours, don't raise your hand unless noone else does. Problem is, that makes the lessons so much longer, it's easier just to raise your and and be a know it all than wait for the teacher to move things along. In seventh grade though, I found a way to use this to my advantage. My seventh grade History teacher was 100% inept as every student in the class agreed, the worst students still had to correct him. Anyway, at one point he punished me for not working on the classwork (I had finished) and so I decided he could deal with those awkward silences when no one knew the anwer, and I would be the one who would raise my hand. It was very satisfying to watch him struggle and wait for someone to answer.

Like Christine, Hermione is scarily like me, to the last detail. Hermione's parents are dentists, mine too. Hermione has curly, frizzy, brown hair, me too. Hermione had buck teeth, me too. Hermione is a know-it-all, me too (I do try and restrain myself though).

Anyway, let's put pH's second grade math teacher in charge .

P.S. I know I rambled in this post, sorry!
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
Hey jlt.

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Liz- With your Larry/ Jenny example, why shouldn't you try to explain to Jenny the patterns of world history and why they're significant.

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Rather than making a whole class read the same novel and having only one or two students really take something away from it, let kids pick their own novels to read or recommend novels to them... my whole English class had to read Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea but almost noone really loved it. I'm not suggesting that classics like OMS aren't worth reading, but I think that if we had all read novels of our choosing and then analyzed them using the techniques being taught, the class would have been much less miserable.

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You know, jlt, generally I'm in wholehearted agreement on this one. I'm MOSTLY against the whole class slogging through novel after novel at the same impossible or mind-numbing pace, depending on the kid. But there's a genuine advantage to having a common text to discuss. English isn't just about reading and writing; it's also about listening and speaking. And having a touchstone text makes that discussion much easier to have. I don't think that touchstone text always has to be a full-length novel, though. In other words, I have a feeling that it wasn't necessarily the book making the class miserable.

I do think whole class discussion is one of the times when advanced students should "wait around" for the others, since it benefits everyone. Even if my brightest student has an immediate insight, she needs to keep her mind open and listen to others' interpretations because she will benefit, even if it's by challenging their arguments. Don't get me wrong...I do like my hand raisers, and my little Hermione is one of my favorite students. But SO many times hand up means ears closed/ brain off. There's plenty of times that I don't call on ANYONE so that EVERYONE can have a chance to think and formulate an idea, or have time to refine it.

jlt, I sympathize with you about your history class, I really do. I also hate having to listen to people blather on when they have nothing to contribute. But I also have sympathy for your teacher, who probably wants to have a discussion with the class, not a dialogue with you. Other students need a chance to articulate their ideas and have them supported or challenged. Now, if your teacher isn't allowing you or others to challenge goofy ideas, then that's a whole other problem

Let me specify that the whole class discussion should actually be a discussion, and not a fishing expedition where the teacher is trying to make kids say the right answers. If the teacher is just checking to see if everyone understands something, it's not a discussion, and I completely understand the urge to raise your hand to move the class along. I do it myself in grad classes--the "yes, yes, I get it, now let's move on" hand raise.

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In the case of Larry, teachers generally don't try to make up harder work for Larry because it means more work for them when they're already swamped with teaching 20 other kids, so Larry does the same thing. I think pH's teacher had the right idea, you can't teach each kid individually but you can give them all the material and let Larry get through it all and move on to more and and then help kids who move at a slower pace, or have Larry help do so.

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Another idea that is often overlooked is that students can be teachers.

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Another idea that is often overlooked is that students can be teachers.

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It was not your typical snooze class but was actually useful.

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Originally posted by Phanto:
We currently pay teachers 34.06$ per hour, on average. That's not terrible pay; in some areas, it's even 44$ per hour.

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009612

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Originally posted by Tresopax:

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It was not your typical snooze class but was actually useful.

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This is the #1 problem with education. If students view the "typical" class as something useless, how can we expect them to learn much?

Schools need an answer to the following question: Why do I need to know this?

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They also need less bboring, more innovative, ways to teach it. (I'm tired of taking so many notes! I know sometimes they're a good learning device but eventually they just become extra paper and a list of what you're about to forget.)
 

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Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
 
One of my former boyfriends took his organic chemistry notes in mirror writing. He didn't need to study them again to remember them, just to write them down...and writing them backwards helped him to stay awake.

Why don't you give that a try?
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Ic,
Two of my students found a site which listed the salaries of pretty much any job in pretty much any location. I was asking them to update a simulation I do, and the book I used was very outdated(gas at a little over a dollar a gallon)

I will ask them for the site.

[ February 07, 2007, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I don't know about the rest of the country, but you can access Alabama's teacher salary info right here.

To save you time, a new teacher (less than three years experience) with a Bachelor's degree makes a minimum of $33,737 per year. That's for a 187 day contract, which if you do the math and assume an eight hour day, that comes to roughly $22 an hour. And by the way, I'm not lowballing that by only including the "minimum" salaray, in my experience of checking with local districts, few pay more than a few hundred dollars more than the minimum, if anything over the minimum.

Of course, you must assume that teachers 1) only work those 187 days and 2) only work eight hours a day. Neither of those is true, from what my friends who are teachers tell me.

You also need to consider where the salaries go - and what type of advancement is possible. If you never get a higher degree, and therefore remain at the bachelor's level in Alabama, you will top out at 42,934 per year after 27 years of experience. Look at that again - after more than 25 years of experience you will only be making $9,197 more per year (of course, I'm not factoring in cost of living increases, but those tend to lag behind inflation, anyway).

Show me another job with so little opportunity to advance your salary. Would you stay in a job if you knew you would never increase your salary by more than that, even after 27 years of experience? In contrast, back in the day when I was a database programmer, I saw more than a $9,000 annual increase in my salary in the span of three years, much less 27.

You need to also factor in the cost of keeping your certification current, many teachers pay for continuing education credits out of their own pockets. And, if you want to increase your salary by getting another degree, that usually comes out of your pocket too.

Teachers spend a lot of their own money in their classrooms as well:

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On average, teachers report spending a total of $475 of their own money on classroom materials and supplies.
44% of respondents spend over $500 on their classrooms, with 20% spending over $1,000.

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