My friend Amy wrote the song. This realplayer clip just plays a few seconds of it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Ugh. I don't like this. The music is not very good folks, I mean really? It's just that she's a very attractive Asian woman playing a violin- and not all that well. I'm a little disgusted. It's very exploitative.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't think it's as much her being Asian, a woman, or attractive.
It's fun. It might not be technically excellent, but since when has music needed to be complex or particularly 'good' to be entertaining?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
For me? Forever.
And yes, Lyr, I think the racial aspect and the fetishistic aspect is a big part of what makes this attractive to people. It's eye candy, it's different, it's striking, it's tasteless. I don't like the music anyway, and the fetishism of the woman and the violin both are adding insult to injury.
This is being presented all in sexy videos for a reason- that's the main attraction. If this was a guy playing violin, or simply an mp3 track of the same music, it would be ho-hum.
Edit: And not to say that I don't think the Destiny video is extremely hot- but it's essentially a foldout in maxim magazine with a soundtrack. She's a model who has a skill. Let's not confuse this with good music, please. There is a very good reason why the first 30 seconds of that video is just different angles of her breasts and abs. I'm a little disgusted.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The idea of an Asian classical musician is different? Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Orincoro: On the plus side, at least you watched up to (and possibly including) the third video before you got disgusted. I applaud your tenacity at braving through something so tasteless, if only everyone examined the issues so closely before forming an opinion.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Mucus, I didn't like it from the get go. I looked at the other vids to see if things got any better. They got worse.
I don't know if you're being sarcastic? You really don't know from my post how much of the music I actually listened to. The answer is that I've now heard it all, and I don't like it. It's revolting.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
A lot of the songs can be listened to, at least in part. I apologize in advance for the vocals by Rachel Caswell, she's not nearly as a good a singer as Sara Caswell is a violinist (I'm particularly annoyed at her trying to imitate the sound of a violin with her voice), but she's not in most pieces.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Fugu- I'm completely fine with types of music I don't really enjoy. I thought those sample tracks were fine, but I really wonder at how people can be enticed by these Vanessa Mae videos, that are essentially fantasy action videos or magazine layouts with bad music. Turn on the music and click away from the utube video, and tell me how good the music really is.
There is the whole side issue of the kind of music that has been engineered within an inch of its life to sound like a computer vomited it onto a cd. The rhythms are so perfect, and the timbre and sound placement has been so manipulated that I would rather hear it played by computer. Why have people make music at all? This sounds like the product of a 14 year old who is overly impressed with his sound editor.
Edit: And as for the first video, that has not been sound engineered. The music is cheesy pop garbage. I mean really, I'm embarrassed for the orchestra that had to play that. I understand that there is no accounting for taste- that piece is definite proof.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Someday, someone is going to seriously rock the tuba while wearing a bikini.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I know, Tom, I know.
The sad thing is... you're not kidding.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I've seen near that during Marching Band practice in high school Tom.
Replace tuba with sousaphone, and replace bikini with skimpy tanktop and daisy dukes and there you go.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
You seem somewhat confused; I'm not defending the Youtube videos at all, musically; I don't think its very good music, either. I was merely offering an alternative that was.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I got that actually- just re-agreeing. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Here is an extraordinary recording of Perlman His articulation is phenomenal on this recording. I have to admit to being curious about that hall. All of the solo winds sound fantastic also, so I think Perlman is getting a little help, but this recording is fine evidence supporting that he is the best living violinist.
[ January 29, 2007, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Close your eyes, and Vanessa Mae is just Yanni with an underdeveloped drum machine.
She is much easier on the eyes than Yanni, though. Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
Good grief! I'm sorry I posted. It's okay if you don't like it, just ignore it. It's not meant to be "classical".
Ooh...But Perlman does look as if he enjoys playing.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
It's not meant to classical, it's meant to betray every fetish and horrible stereotype that makes Asians', and others people's lives harder in this country. I only get up in arms because I study at a music department which is composed of about 40% Asian women, the majority of whom are hypersensitive about exactly this kind of thing.
There are even local and global hate groups on the Facebook that vilify whites for enjoying this kind of entertainment and fetishizing Asian women. I'm not saying that's ALL this is doing, but this kind of commercial garbage makes me ashamed of our culture, and it makes me life noticeably more complicated. If you think that race relations between whites and Asians in this country are just peachy, I would suggest you go to visit a large music department at a California university sometime- people can be extremely sensitive about this kind of thing.
However you feel about it (and my feelings about the quality of the music completely aside for the moment) this gives hateful and mean spirited people a reason to hate other people. I don't know if it's racially motivated, but I do know people who would use it as an excuse to vilify our culture. I could be hypersensitive about that, and I probably am, but I can't help but think there is some exec somewhere going: "an Asian girl with a violin sells!" This is only evidenced and reinforced by the poor quality of the music, which would have the potential to override any of my feelings about this whole thing. Since it's clear to me that the music is not the main purpose of the videos (because the music is awful) I look for another explanation. I hope wish I am wrong about that, but I know it's enough for some to jump to a conclusion about how ALL of American culture is.
Edit to add: If your response is that I should think of how I would feel if this weren't a specifically Asian woman- I would likely feel about the same. It's exploitative and useless eye candy, and it denigrates the woman, and teaches us a crummy lesson about musicianship and artistry. I understand on some level she made a choice to participate in this, but we also make a choice to support it, and I would ask others to choose not to.
[ January 30, 2007, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
While her looks may be a large part of the enjoyment for some of her fans, they aren't for me, and I'm probably not alone in that. I liked her music before I knew what she looked like, mainly because I tend to enjoy classical crossover-type stuff in general. It's just fun.
I like regular classical music as well, but my ear isn't trained well enough to find her playing to be all that bad. I can understand how her imperfections could annoy classical purists, though. If Perlman or Mutter or any other virtuoso should ever decide to record an album in a Vanessa-Mae-esque style, I'd gladly buy it, but until then, I'm happy with her CDs. Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I didn't see any particularly Asian imagery in the videos, just a lot of unnecessary sexiness. And they use that to market nearly all female classical musicians, such as Hilary Hahn.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Nell, the poor quality of the music is not so because of her poor skills as a musician. I don't know how good of a musician she is, because the repertoire she is exhibiting here is horrible. I don't think Perlman or Bell would make a better case for this music, I think it's bad music and that's all there is to it. It's not about me being a purist (because anyone who is a musician is not a real purist- we want to be accessible), it's about this music being god awful. There is the added insult of it sampling Bach and other compositional legends of yore- but that CAN be done tastefully. This example is not tasteful, it's crass.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I didn't see any particularly Asian imagery in the videos, just a lot of unnecessary sexiness.
I'm hoping you'll respond to this, Orincoro.
Personally, I only watched part of the "red hot" video, but turned it off because it was boring.
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
Yeah, put her in a burkha already.
I don't care what race she is. I don't care if she wants to exploit her looks. This was the first time I'd ever seen any videos of her...I only have CDs. I still like the music. Too bad if you don't.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I just want to point out that unnecessary sexiness is not the same thing as unpleasant sexiness. Even if she were a slightly more talented player, I would not mind in the least if she remained moderately attractive.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Mph- Yes it is boring. As for the imagery- I've looked and I can't pin anything down. I think I'm having an overall negative reaction to the overdone eyeshadow, lip gloss, belly shirts, flipping of the hair, etc. All that isn't Asian per se- but if you've been subjected to as many indictments of the whole of white America having "yellow fever" as I have, you might have a pavlovian response developed around this sort of thing. I know people, not people I particularly respect, loudly and proudly use things like this as part of a feminist, racist agenda. I am sad that I have been so trained as to react that way. Maybe I shouldn't be so sensitive, and just dismiss the music because it's awful.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Maybe I shouldn't be so sensitive, and just dismiss the music because it's awful.
I don't think decrying music which others enjoy because you've judged it to be "awful" puts you on better ground.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Turn on the music and click away from the utube video, and tell me how good the music really is.
Funny, that's how I listened to the Classical Gas clip first - when I click a link in Firefox, it doesn't flip to the tab automatically. It played all the way through before I looked. And I liked it fine.
I don't particularly care if my musical tastes aren't up to anyone else's standard. I like Miller Lite, and I don't care that it's "bad beer."
I like it. That's why I listen to music.
(Or, what MPH just said.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Huh. I didn't watch any but part of one link, but now I realize that I've heard, and liked, that version of Classical Gas before.
And I never knew anything about the performer.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Nice post Dag. =)
Personally I preferred it on the guitar with Eric Clapton, but I still liked it, if anything, when I was watching the video I found her gyrations distracting.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Personally I preferred it on the guitar with Eric Clapton, but I still liked it,
Same here.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Same here.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OK, I've gone and watched all of the videos now except for Devil's Trill, which I cannot get to load.
Yes, the music videos are pointlessly (and IMO, stupidly) sexual, but no moreso than the average music video I recall back from the days when I watched them.
I too found the Classical Gas video distracting. I think I liked it less with the visuals than without.
I didn't care much for most of the pieces, and I especially was bugged whenever she whispered, like in Destiny and the end of Red Hot.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: [QUOTE]
I don't particularly care if my musical tastes aren't up to anyone else's standard. I like Miller Lite, and I don't care that it's "bad beer."
The lit crit student inside of me is screaming at you about Emanuel Kant.
That's a weird dichotomy to me. I really think that you saying "I don't care that it's 'bad beer'" is actually you making the case that it isn't all that bad. It seems that a lot of the time people use this sort of argument- one that claims not to actually argue in favor of the things they like- but it actually does. Saying you like it is also saying, in a sense, that it is good, because people like good things.
I think you can go ahead and make the argument that it is good for something, and not cut me off at the knees by saying my argument, that it is BAD, is irrelevant. It isn't. You think it's good, and I don't- we don't agree. This argument, whenever I see it presented (not often, but sometimes) is really telling me that my judgement is poor, or that I am wrong, without actually offering any kind of evidence or advancing any point in favor of the thing we're talking about. This is a condescension, in that I am being told I am incapable of understanding the reasons why this music is good- it's akin to me telling you that you'll have to trust me on why this music is awful, because my taste is better than yours- which I didn't say. This is just you saying that YOUR taste is better than mine. It also posits the position that I am an elitist and unreachable for any kind of dialog, because my tastes (with a roll of the eyes) are "too refined." Taste, contrary to popular opinion, is accountable and should be accounted for. It's one of the most interesting things about music, and it's the thing that alienates academicians and classicists from other people. In my opinion, and it is only my inexperienced opinion as a student, non-academics take a MUCH harder line when it comes to accepting different attitudes and insights into music and aesthetics. Often "open minds" aren't so open.
I really don't think that this kind of statement advances any kind of useful dialogue because it's inherently dishonest- it hinders communication and shuts me out of the equation.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:You think it's good, and I don't- we don't agree.
He, nor I, never said it was good. He said that he liked it.
quote:This is just you saying that YOUR taste is better than mine.
Not at all. It's saying that it's different.
You are putting a lot of words into Dagonee's mouth which he never said.
quote:I really don't think that this kind of statement advances any kind of useful dialogue because it's inherently dishonest- it hinders communication and shuts me out of the equation.
I think you've done that far more than Dagonee has. You are the one that has said that it is bad, awful music, implying that anybody who likes it has bad, awful taste. Despite your protestations, Dagonee has not said nor implied anything about your taste in music except that it's different than his.
[ February 01, 2007, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
My point, which you ignored, was to show that a statement like that dismisses any attempt at defending a position or understanding anything about the other side of the argument.
You can take a page out of many a poster's book and snip out of context qoutlets from my post to make me look like an ogre- but that's pretty lame. "You think it's good, and I don't- we don't agree" came at the end of a reasoning sequence I was trying to demonstrate. You destroyed all that, and so you really didn't quote me- and you really didn't understand what I was trying to say. That may be my fault, but the out of context quote is your fault. Please don't do that, I really really don't like it when people do that. It's got to be the most frustrating thing about this forum for me.
Everything in your post depends on a misreading of mine, so I don't know what to say. You've reinforced the point I was trying to make by demonstrating how obtuse people can be in arguments like this.
Edit: And yes I am constructing a string of inferences based on what Dag wrote, and that's a risky thing. You can take it with a grain of salt, but please take it in its context. I am not in Dag's mind, I am describing his thought as it appears to me, and that is the most I can hope to do. I'm not putting words in his mouth. Don't confuse the two things.
For the record: I am positing that a statement about the quality of a piece of music, or a recording, is usually a matter subject for debate. My opinions, and I think all opinions, carry with them the implication that others should agree- that my taste or my reasoning or my insight is of value to others, and not just myself. These points are arguable always, but I would rather argue them than say: "There is no accounting for taste." There is accounting for taste, but most people are too apathetic to actually account for it. There could be many interesting things that Dag might have to say as to why this music did something for him, but he assumed, or at least implied in his post that there was no value in sharing that insight- because I wouldn't understand it, or because I wouldn't make the effort to listen. To me, that's unfair to my effort, whenever I take to the time, to argue my position on a piece of music. Being a student of musicology as I am, this kind of statement is also something I never hear from people who have anything interesting to say on music- because they know better than to offer such a lame rejoinder.
[ February 01, 2007, 05:09 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
<Deleted because I'm not going to let Orincoro redefine what's happening here.>
[ February 01, 2007, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Taste, contrary to popular opinion, is accountable and should be accounted for. It's one of the most interesting things about music, and it's the thing that alienates academicians and classicists from other people.
Not quite. The belief that taste should be accounted for -- by some objective standard -- is what causes academicians to alienate themselves from other people. It's clearly wrong.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
This was your first post on this thread, Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Ugh. I don't like this. The music is not very good folks, I mean really? It's just that she's a very attractive Asian woman playing a violin- and not all that well. I'm a little disgusted. It's very exploitative.
I responded to a very specific part of your post, a challenge, if you will, to prove that we would like it even without seeing the attractive Asian woman in a short dress:
quote:Turn on the music and click away from the utube video, and tell me how good the music really is.
You felt it was OK to make an aesthetic pronouncement without justifying it. You've now declared it "unfair" that I did the same thing.
The entirety of your response to me is based on principles you are unwilling to apply to yourself AND on an understanding of my intent that is almost completely uninformed.
I responded to one particular assertion you made and then supported with your challenge: that those who like it only do so because of the hawt Asian chick.
Why I like Classical Gas is immaterial to this, except to the extent that your assertion as to that "why" was wrong in at least one instance.
You started this thread assigning motives to other people, you then assigned them directly to me, and finally, you got pissy at me for daring to do what you did at the very beginning of this thread: making an aesthetic judgment without defending it.
In no way, shape, or form did I dismiss any attempt at defending your position. I don't care what you think about my tastes, at least with respect to beer and music, because I use both only for my own enjoyment. That's not dismissing you; that's announcing a very simple fact.
(I'll only mention the irony of complaining about MPH pulling one of your quotes out of context when he did so in response to you doing the same thing to me.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Everything in your post depends on a misreading of mine, so I don't know what to say. You've reinforced the point I was trying to make by demonstrating how obtuse people can be in arguments like this.
If I misunderstood your post, it was an honest misunderstanding. As I re-read your post, it still looks like you're accusing Dagonee of doing something he hasn't done, but which is very close to what you yourself are doing.
quote:My opinions, and I think all opinions, carry with them the implication that others should agree- that my taste or my reasoning or my insight is of value to others, and not just myself.
I disagree. Notice that Dag nor I made claims, as you did, about the quality of the music. We said we enjoyed it. I personally think there's nothing wrong with not enjoying music that I enjoy.
On the other hand, I do think, despite the fact that I do it myself all the time, that there is something distateful in thinking that your tastes are superior to those of other people.
quote:There could be many interesting things that Dag might have to say as to why this music did something for him, but he assumed, or at least implied in his post that there was no value in sharing that insight- because I wouldn't understand it, or because I wouldn't make the effort to listen.
This only makes sense if Dagonee agrees with your assumption that taste should be accounted for.
quote:Taste, contrary to popular opinion, is accountable and should be accounted for.
I disagree. Also, you are aware that most people disagree with you on this, and yet you keep assigning motives and inferences to Dagonee as though he shares your assumptions.
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
I have literally ALL of her albums and recordings (buying all the albums of a given artist at the same time is something I do rather often). I have 78 of her songs on my Winamp rotation.
She has several others great ones than those listed, including her renditions of Cotton Eye Joe, Flight of the Bumblebee, Zorba, etc...
I love her music, and haven't seen much of her live or on stage. But, yes, the times I've seen her perform she has been somewhat of a fireball.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
And here I listen to classical music to soothe my nerves and make my surroundings serene. Who would have thought we could have heated arguments about classical composers.
Now where is my Rachmaninov cd? Ah yes here it is! mmmmmm Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Ya know that Perlman fella coulda made somethin' of himself if he'da learned young from a master like PapaJohnCreach insteada bein' ruined by classical trainin'. Admittedly his choice of music sucks, but he's still pretty much ruined as far as fiddlin'.
[ February 01, 2007, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So, Orincoro, is Nighthawk part of the huge Asian fetish problem?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I liked the music (I mean, it's not great or anything, but it's ok) before I saw any videos of the performer.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Vanessa Mae is hot.
Also, she has boobies!
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
So does Perlman, but ya don' see me goin' gaga.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Vanessa Mae is hot.
Also, she has boobies!
That was way funnier than it deserves.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I prefer to say, "I am of the Asian persuasion" rather then saying "I have yellow fever."
Asian Persuasion just sounds more clever IMO.
Also, though I do think Asians are hot (I did grow up around them) I ended up marrying a girl who is 3/4ths German 1/4th American in ethnicity from Washington. Really did not see that coming growing up, I used to plague my mom with questions like, "If I married a Chinese girl would you be OK with it."
My mom usually candidly responded with, "If you had Mrs. Wong as a mother in law, would you be OK with it?" That usually shut me up.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I kind of feel like I'm picking on Orincoro, but I have Issues with people who believe that women being sexy somehow denigrates them.
In all seriousness, I get where you are coming from, Orincoro. I don't care if you think the music is crap. I mean, it doesn't bother me. As a non-musician, I wouldn't know 'real' music if it hit upside the head.
That said, let me throw a couple thoughts out.
I think that there are probably a ton of Asian violinists out there who dress modestly and are talented. You have them to enjoy. Enjoy them.
I don't agree with your belief that enjoying a hot Asian girl playing a violin somehow means that, what?, people will assume all Asian girls get by on their looks? That they all can't really play violin? (I'm kind of confused on this point.) I think it's perfectly possible to enjoy one or the other, or even one and the other for what they have to offer.
So, my question to you is, why do you think men, or society, or whatever can't appreciate people, women, on the level that they choose to share themselves? If some women don't want to expose more skin, that's great. I can appreciate them for what they are. If they do, that's great to. I like pretty girls.
I strenuously oppose your belief that society is some kind of zero-sum game, a closed system where when one person does one thing, because they are part of a group, it somehow has some kind of deleterious butterfly effect on the whole gestalt. While it's clear that there people influence each other to some degree, people ARE capable of intellectually understanding that because a bird is black, not all birds are blackbirds. Further, emotionally, not all people would want to make that leap.
I absolutely appreciate what you are saying about substance versus eye candy. I think people should look for soul nurturing, awesome art.
But sometimes you just want candy, and that's o.k., too, I think.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: I prefer to say, "I am of the Asian persuasion" rather then saying "I have yellow fever."
Jay McInerney had one of his Asian characters call himself 'the yellow nonpareil'. Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So, Orincoro, is Nighthawk part of the huge Asian fetish problem?
Hey! What'd I do?
Don't blame me! Blame tentacles!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Apparently yes Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Don't blame me! Blame tentacles!
This would make an awesome t-shirt.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No kidding. I'm just trying to decide whether it should have an alarmed-looking schoolgirl on the front or not.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Better with the words Tako Eater printed on the back.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So, Orincoro, is Nighthawk part of the huge Asian fetish problem?
I don't think it's huge. I think other people think it's huge, and that makes me kind of sensitive, because I've been subjected to that kind of stereotype against white men. Nighthawk, if I recall, did even go and live in Asia for a while, but I couldn't assign motives to that. It is still pretty clear to me that people have got to be responding to more than the awful music she is playing- evidence all the sexy videos and stage presence that she cultivates to make up for the sickly brand of music she plays.
So the answer is I don't think it's a problem- I just think we (as a society) don't need another reason for Asians to mistrust people of other ethnicities. That being said, of course I think that Asian performers should be allowed to be as sexy as they want to be- it's just the sinister motivation I assign in my imagination to the record label that promotes her.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I don't agree with your belief that enjoying a hot Asian girl playing a violin somehow means that, what?, people will assume all Asian girls get by on their looks? That they all can't really play violin? (I'm kind of confused on this point.) I think it's perfectly possible to enjoy one or the other, or even one and the other for what they have to offer.
So, my question to you is, why do you think men, or society, or whatever can't appreciate people, women, on the level that they choose to share themselves? If some women don't want to expose more skin, that's great. I can appreciate them for what they are. If they do, that's great to. I like pretty girls.
I strenuously oppose your belief that society is some kind of zero-sum game, a closed system where when one person does one thing, because they are part of a group, it somehow has some kind of deleterious butterfly effect on the whole gestalt. While it's clear that there people influence each other to some degree, people ARE capable of intellectually understanding that because a bird is black, not all birds are blackbirds. Further, emotionally, not all people would want to make that leap.
My point about her being very attractive is only a negative for me because she plays what I think is awful music. This draws all my attention to the fact that she is getting by on her looks and marketing, and that sucks. Despite how we would love society to be, and despite the fact that most people are capable of telling blackbirds from birds that are black, all the classes I've ever taken in psychology (all of 2) have told me that the intellectual understanding of these issues is not usually the part that is the problem.
The sad fact is that we can understand intellectually that, for instance, a black man reaching into his pocket is likely to produce a wallet. However, field tests demonstrate that police officers, white and black, are more likely to shoot a black person who is reaching for his wallet, than to shoot a white person who is doing exactly the same thing. This tells me that our society- and not one individual, and not even a group of individuals, can understand and really BELIEVE one thing, and still react to the world as if they didn't know that thing. We can understand that Asian women are just as likely to be fully capable as musicians and as intelligent as anyone, but media garbage like this assaults our senses, effects our experience of the world, and makes part of our consciousness recognize a pattern that is wrong.
Like all those "boys in the hood" movies I remember from my childhood, that really thought they were teaching valuable lessons about the perils of life in gangs, we are being taught the wrong lessons by our own senses. You see a sexed up Asian girl on stage grinding on a violin- you may recognize the music as being uninspired and pointless, and you being in some way, or at least I think many will, to assign some values to those images. You see similar images later, and your experiences tell you things about them- that's the way our minds work; that's why we have to subject ourselves to a better quality of experiences- it makes us better people. Valueless experiences are not only free of positive value- they carry negative values too.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Orincoro, several people on this thread have said that they enjoyed her music without ever knowing what she looked like or her that she's Asian.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's because we don't know any better.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Mph- I hope it's obvious that I'm not really addressing that point in my last post. What I said in that post is for people who have seen the video, and it's about how the video is portraying a negative image. How could you not have gotten that?
Edit: and further the person who I am responding to HAS seen the video.
To answer your point specifically. I knew that, yes. I have been reading the same thread you have. Every time I see a post like this from you, I care less about what you think and about the thread in general. I have a feeling that's what you're going for- but I don't know. Are you trying to just get in the last word or bore me out of caring at all? Because I'v done this 'go back and repeat yourself over and over and restate and then see that none of it has had even the slightest impact' thing with you before, and it's boring. You never seem to reward my efforts by even demonstrating that you've understood me. Maybe I should be more clear, or not post at all. I'll try, but please help me.
[ February 02, 2007, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Mph- I hope it's obvious that I'm not really addressing that point in my last post.
Yes. It's very obvious you haven't addressed that point AT ALL.
quote: I have a feeling that's what you're going for-
You should stop trusting those feelings you get about what others are trying to do. From experience, such feelings are remarkably and consistently wrong.
quote:Because I'v done this 'go back and repeat yourself over and over and restate and then see that none of it has had even the slightest impact' thing with you before, and it's boring.
See "Yes. It's very obvious you haven't addressed that point AT ALL." You are constantly complaining about things that you not only do, but that are central to the way you post.
It's very clear to us that you haven't heard much of what we've said. You posted two rants in response to a post I didn't make - it was some post you conjured up out of your "inferences."
Finally, your premises on the effects of a sexy Asian woman making bad music all rely on other people thinking her music is bad.
Many don't. Your premise is wrong.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: You see a sexed up Asian girl on stage grinding on a violin- you may recognize the music as being uninspired and pointless, and you being in some way, or at least I think many will, to assign some values to those images. You see similar images later, and your experiences tell you things about them- that's the way our minds work; that's why we have to subject ourselves to a better quality of experiences- it makes us better people. Valueless experiences are not only free of positive value- they carry negative values too.
Asian women are far down my list of the kind of women that I associate with a stereotype of being any kind of sexy libertines. Perhaps Mae is doing all of you guys (Asian girls) a favor by helping people see that you're not all bookish school marms out of touch with your feelings. If anything, that's the stereotype I associate with Asian women.
What things mean to people is going to differ from person to person. You see Mae as bringing Asian women down because she is being sexual, other people may see her as bringing them 'up'. Other people may not really notice her Asian-ness at all.
Perhaps Mae is just doing it because it makes her happy. Aren't her feelings important in all of this? Must she do things, consider things, because she is a symbol of Asian women? Or should she do things because of what she wants and not consider the stereotypes?
The interesting thing about your argument is that it is, itself, a form of racism. It seems like because you think Mae isn't seen as an individual, you don't see Mae as an individual. You see her as an extension, a representative, of a group, and want her to tailor her behavior for the betterment of her group. Isn't it kind of sad that one of the tenets of your argument is that she shouldn't be doing what she's doing because she's an Asian woman and giving Asian women a bad name?
I admit that I can't say that you're wrong. I can't really say for sure what stereotypes exist for many people. I can't really say that it isn't better for Asian women that demure, well playing violinists are what is seen by society.
What I do firmly believe, though, is that if I were in Mae's place, I would want people to appreciate me for me, and not a representative of my 'race' or my sex.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Right on, Storm.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Thank you for the 'right on'. Heh, heh.
I have been thinking about this, and I understand what Orincoro is saying. She wants people to understand that not all Asian women are untalented and get by on their looks. That's great. That's fine and admirable.
I think I just disagree with some of her supporting assumptions and the way she's framing her argument. If she just said, eh, she's really not my cup of tea, etc. Have you heard of X? I like her a lot better, I think most people wouldn't have a problem with that. I think what's rubbing me the wrong way is that a lot of her argument seems to rest on assumptions about what people are thinking and what people should see.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
After I thought about it for awhile, I don't have any stereotypes, positive or negative, about Asian women. They're a distinct minority in my neighborhood, a nonexistent minority in my workplace, and so I don't really have any reference to draw any positive or negative stereotypes.
I will admit that an attractive Asian woman is more interesting* to me than an attractive white woman, or Hispanic woman, but I think that's really just because of the rarity (to me) involved.
*interesting as someone to glance-and-smile at in the library or bookstore or package-delivery-center, for instance.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I have stereotypes, but I've met lots and seen lots that don't fit. I think most of those stereotypes come from the fact that most of the Asian/Oriental women I've seen in Florida are first generation immigrants.
quote: I will admit that an attractive Asian woman is more interesting* to me than an attractive white woman, or Hispanic woman, but I think that's really just because of the rarity (to me) involved.
For me, it's the unavailability, I think, that adds to the attractiveness. Like Indian girls, I perceive a lot of Asian girls to be somewhat, erm, racist? clannish? and only really want to be with guys of their own ethnicity. So, I perceive them as something that I can never have.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:What I said in that post is for people who have seen the video, and it's about how the video is portraying a negative image. How could you not have gotten that?
The things you say don't appear to be only talking about people who have seen the videos.
In the post I was responding to, you said:
quote: she plays what I think is awful music. This draws all my attention to the fact that she is getting by on her looks and marketing
Multiple people here have said that they enjoyed her music without knowing anything about her looks. It seems pretty obvious to me that she's getting by, at least in part, because people enjoy her music, uninfluenced by her looks or marketing.
You don't seem to believe that other people can actually enjoy this "awful" music, so you assume that it's something else.
Lots of people enjoy "awful" music. I'm one of them.
[ February 02, 2007, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Asian women are far down my list of the kind of women that I associate with a stereotype of being any kind of sexy libertines. Perhaps Mae is doing all of you guys (Asian girls) a favor by helping people see that you're not all bookish school marms out of touch with your feelings. If anything, that's the stereotype I associate with Asian women.
Despite the fact that I disagree with Orincoro on most of what he said, I should probably interject. While the stereotype may not have impressed itself on you, it does exist and is pretty well documented. Example: Stereotypes of Asian Women @ Wikipedia
I just don't think its a factor in this case. Nevertheless, thats the kind of "favour" that would probably be most unwanted.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Asian women have been portrayed as aggressive sexual beings. Western film and literature has promoted stereotypes of Asian women, such as depicting Asian women as cunning "Dragon Ladies" [52][53][54], as servile "Lotus Blossom Babies", "China dolls", "Geisha girls", war brides, or prostitutes [55]. UC Berkeley Professor of Asian American Studies Elaine Kim has argued that the stereotype of Asian women as submissive sex objects has impeded women's economic mobility and has fostered increased demand in mail-order brides and ethnic pornography [56].
Seems kind of schizophrenic to me.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Nobody ever accused stereotypes of being rational and well-thought out judgements.
Indeed, in the case of these stereotypes, they probably have more to do with the insecurities of the Western world than anything to do with Asian women.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
God, how I hate the whole conflict perspective.
quote: Nobody ever accused stereotypes of being rational and well-thought out judgements.
Indeed, in the case of these stereotypes, they probably have more to do with the insecurities of the Western world than anything to do with Asian women.
It's not been established what, exactly, the stereotype actually is. Just because certain tropes exist in porn (that exist in a lot of porn, by the way), doesn't mean that this translates to the actual stereotype for a lot of Asian women. For instance, a lot of men don't watch porn.
For all that exists in porn, you have people like Mae who, many would argue, represents a very healthy representation of women, Asian women, and their sexuality.
Conflict perspective frames everything in parameters in power, conflict, and dominance is a very limited point of view which on its face assumes that there *must* a priori be such a relationship, when quite often that has not been proved. I think that this is one of those cases, and I, myself, am a good example of why the link you gave is wrong and not comprehensive of the way all men view things.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
A) Not sure why you're focusing on porn. If you read the link, or indeed what you quoted "Western film and literature", porn is just one of the sources that the link talks about.
B) I'm not sure what you mean by "the actual stereotype for a lot of Asian women". Stereotypes are what certain people think about a group, in this case what certain Western people think about Asian women.
C) Don't know what you mean by conflict perspective. But your assertion that the link is wrong because you do not believe the stereotype is rather odd. Stereotypes merely have to be held by some people, in some cases many people. Not all members of a group have to believe the stereotype in order for it to exist. In this case, its well documented that a fair number of people hold these beliefs. Whether you believe in it or not has no bearing on their beliefs.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: A) Not sure why you're focusing on porn. If you read the link, or indeed what you quoted "Western film and literature", porn is just one of the sources that the link talks about.
My mistake.
My mistake. Nevertheless, my point stands that what is in media doesn't necessarily reflect reality for a lot of people. For what it's worth, I don't think the examples given in your link represent the totality of the way Asian women are shown in media, and they don't take into account the reality that people experience when they interact with Asian women on a day to day basis.
In other words, I think focusing on media is a bad way to prove or disprove, generally, whether a certain group of people is one way or another, or what a certain group of people think about another group of people.
It also ignores whether one person should be one way or another, or should do things for the sake of a perceived stereotype.
quote: B) I'm not sure what you mean by "the actual stereotype for a lot of Asian women". Stereotypes are what certain people think about a group, in this case what certain Western people think about Asian women.
See above.
quote: C) Don't know what you mean by conflict perspective. But your assertion that the link is wrong because you do not believe the stereotype is rather odd. Stereotypes merely have to be held by some people, in some cases many people. Not all members of a group have to believe the stereotype in order for it to exist. In this case, its well documented that a fair number of people hold these beliefs. Whether you believe in it or not has no bearing on their beliefs.
It is well documented that some people have used certain images in art. What those images mean is going to differ from person to person. To use this thread as an example, the person(s) in your link would probably look at Mae the same way Orincoro does, yet it is clear from this thread that their perspective isn't true for a lot of people. So, the documentation itself has a high degree of questionability.
The images themselves don't speak to how seriously the artists take those images outside of the art, or how seriously the audience does, or take into account other images which contribute to the overall view of a certain group of people. To take another example of a thread on this forum which highlights the conflict view (two groups must be in conflict. That is the totality of their relationship), Altariel's thread uses as examples a bunch of things, yet doesn't include any counter examples. This prejudices people to think that this is the totality of the way certain groups view each other, or that the dynamics that two groups interact in are destructive. Her thread didn't include the many examples of the groups getting along. It didn't include examples of the positive aspects that contribute to how disparate groups view each other, just as your link does.
As a person who looks at many of those images and is in the culture under discussion, I am a perfectly valid point to use to indicate whether a stereotype is true. If I don't see that the hypothetical stereotypes are being used by me or people around me, then it's perfectly valid to say so and might very well indicate that the belief that some ideas are widely held stereotypes is wrong or right. Though, of course, it doesn't prove it.
I think I've exhausted what I have to say in this thread and am retiring from it. Thank you for your time. Good afternoon.
Edit: Tried to kind of clean up the post. I'm at work and kind of typing as I'm working.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Dag- I see you don't want me to post anything else. Fine.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Orincoro, nobody wants you to leave the thread.
If this is a conversation you don't want to continue, that's perfectly OK. But don't leave because you think we want you to. We don't.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Dag- I see you don't want me to post anything else. Fine.
He didn't say that. I looked, and he didn't say that. I can't remember the last time he has said that in an argument, if he ever has.
You're only providing support for his arguments by reading things which aren't there.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I didn't particularly care for the music, its probably technically better then anything I could write, but it does not sound that great to me, I can still respect her hard work and talent.
Just sayin, and I don't think Vanessa Mae is really that cute. But even if she was Miss Universe material it does not influence my opinion of her music.
Now Amy Lee of Evanescence is a whole different ball game. When she is done up the right way she is gorgeous, and her musical style is REALLY enjoyable to listen to. I never get tired of, "Call Me When You're Sober."
I have a wicked Castlevania sounding organ song that I've been hard at work on, if only I could record the stupid thing.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Dag- I see you don't want me to post anything else. Fine.
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