quote: [He's] the first mainstream African-American [Presidential candidate] who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy
There's the obvious problem of using the word "clean"; plus whether he intended it or not it was quite rude to previous African-American presidential candidates. To me, however, it also seems very patronizing, even if he'd been clearer about what he meant, which was that Obama had fresh ideas and whatnot.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it really seems snotty to praise Obama only in the context of being African-American. He is articulate, he's young and fresh-faced, and he is a nice-looking guy, and those are all happy qualities that will be appreciated by voters; and they're totally irrelevant to his ethnicity.
Of course I'm as aware as anyone that Barack Obama is African-American, and that it would be a landmark thing if he got elected, and I have no desire for anyone to skirt that issue. At the same time it just strikes a very unpleasant chord for Senator Biden to make that kind of observation in that way.
Thoughts? Is this just me?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Senator Biden is kind of an idiot all the time. I'm surprised he still has his state, and even more surprised he still thinks he's a presidential contender. His backtracking on this is unconvincing, given that his comments are patronizing quite apart from the cleanliness comment. (Also, given his past comments about all 7-Eleven employees having to have a certain accent.)
Seriously, this guy is an embarrassment to Democrats.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I think this will be a record for shortest canidacy, ever. They guy had his canidacy-killing blunder before he was done announcing his canidacy.
Posted by Mig (Member # 9284) on :
I'm a pretty conservative GOPer, but I did find Biden's explanation convincing. I don't think Biden is any more racist than Trent Lott or former Sen. George Allen of Virginia (Biden's statment was much more "racially loaded" than Allen's "macaca" quip).
Biden's main point is accurate, i.e., that Obama is the first mainstream, middle of the road black democrat to run for the Prez. Now I don't think he's as moderate as he claims to be (I think he very liberal) but he has done a good job of crafting an image of a moderate, especially when compared to other black also-rans like Jackson or Sharpton. Biden's probelm is that he tends not to think before he speaks and tends to utter racially loaded observations like referring to a black man's articulateness or cleanliness or the number of Indians in convenience stores. I wouln't be surprised to hear Biden refer to Obama as a credit to his race.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Read it, and came to the conclusion that Biden had been bought off by the Republicans. Nah, not really except in the "Leno/Letterman/etc has gotta be able to spin the joke" sense.
It's kinda like Kerry's "stuck in Iraq" comment. Not only did Biden drive away all credible support for a presidential run, but he ticked off his own political party enough so that his longtime supporters know that he's blundered his way out of even the party's unofficial leadership circle. ie His public support will be not be sought by other party candidates to the extent that even private offers to help will be snubbed to avoid contamination.
Except worse. Kerry politically shot himself in the foot, while I think Biden politically shot himself in the head. It wouldn't surprise me if he lost his state's primary for the Senate nomination. And it would surprise me if he were to be re-elected. ie Even if he were to re-win his state party's endorsement, a non-nutcase independent or Republican should be able win the general election.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Oh, I agree completely that it was just a gaffe and unintentional. I tend to get frustrated when people make a big deal over slips of the tounge, as I tend to make a lot of them myself.
For example, I'm probably one of like six conservatives who actually believes John Kerry's botched joke about Bush was really just a botched joke about Bush.
But we live in a day and age where the key to winning the Presidency is to go the longest without saying anything silly by mistake or getting your picture taken in a silly hat. Biden basically tripped coming out of the gate.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I think he was comparing him to the embarrassment that was Jesse Jackson.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I suspect he meant "clean" as in "no scandal attached to him," not as in "showers regularly."
But I agree with docmagic that he tripped coming out of the gate.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Lisa: and Al Sharpton.
I agree 100% with Docmagik.
Also don't see why it's particularly offensive. Jesse "Hymietown"(*) Jackson and Al "Tuana Brawly" Sharpton are NOT clean.
Pix
(*) Excuse me if I misspelled that particular racial epitaph. I've never seen it spelled and only heard it from Reverend Jackson.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Clean is an all-purpose adjective. I just figured he meant that white guy crispness that separates GE execs from those google guys.
Is Biden even a serious contender? I can see him as Secretary of State, but I've always seen him as too happily smarmly to support him for President.
I don't think anyone is going to lose sleep over the comment, including Biden. The guy strikes me as too self-satisfied to think much of it.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I think it is clear what Biden was intending to say, and he has since apologized for the way he put it. Given that, there's not much reason to conclude this is anything more than a poor selection of words. I don't think it is reasonable to hold it as any sort of big strike against Biden, or to conclude anything about his character based upon it.
Then again, the American public is not always reasonable when it comes to judging politicians.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I think he was comparing him to the embarrassment that was Jesse Jackson.
I thought he was referring to Alan Keyes. I am a conservative in many ways, but even his family picture bugs me,
Why? Seems like a normal family portrait to me.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Honestly? Biden's comment seemed perfectly fair to me, and his explanation is pretty much what I thought.
He might have worded it the wrong way, but what I figured he meant was that Obama is young, hip with fresh new ideas, and he's the first black guy to have that image. Jackson, Sharpton, Keyes, Mosley Braun, none of them ever had a chance, except MAYBE Jackson, but even that is so far outside the realm of possibility, I don't think so.
He isn't saying that previous candidates were stupid and dirty, he's saying Obama has a real shot, and none of them did. If anything he's being brutally honest. Biden seemed fairly likable last night on the Daily Show. I don't really care, I'm not voting for him in the primary, but I don't think it's a big deal.
I don't think George Allen's "macaca" thing was a big deal either, as I highly doubt Allen knew what macaca really meant.
I don't think this will hurt him at all in his next senate run, he has that locked up. And I think his presidential run was doomed from the start probably anyway, even though I've heard a lot of people saying good things about him.
But it's already campaign season, so something that wouldn't have meant anything at all five months ago is all of a sudden big news.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It won't hurt his senate run. Nothing else has so far, including being caught plagiarizing, so I don't see why this would.
Even in context, I find his statement objectionable. It smacks of "he's one of the good blackies" to me.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Like every phrase written in Hatrack is original. Ya'd hafta go pret' far to convince me that any given speech/writing is more plagiarized than most other speeches/writings.
[ February 02, 2007, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Mig (Member # 9284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: I can see him as Secretary of State, but I've always seen him as too happily smarmly to support him for President.
As Secretary of State? Biden as a diplomat? Yes, of course, he's shown himself to be so careful in choice of words.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:It smacks of "he's one of the good blackies" to me.
Now THAT has some traction. That's the only real problem I had with it too, but I couldn't quite come up with a way to express it.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Is anyone else getting a John McCain ad at the bottom of the page?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ha! Yeah, I am.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
I'm seeing an ad for beatbushgear.com
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:As Secretary of State? Biden as a diplomat? Yes, of course, he's shown himself to be so careful in choice of words.
This is a big misconception. I think you only have to be careful if you have an unbecoming character. I find Biden deeply candid, principled and trustworthy when it comes to foreign policy. If Biden had been Secretary of State during the run-up to the Iraq war, there wouldn't have been a UN slide show with tire tracks showing disappearing weapons labs and large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction posited as hard evidence. The same eyes that see Obama as a viable, palatable black candidate and a striking number of Indian owned Dunkin' Doughnut shops, has been looking at Iraq and speaking the truth from the beginning.
quote: Even in context, I find his statement objectionable. It smacks of "he's one of the good blackies" to me.
That is what he is saying. Which is understandable, because if I were running, I would say plainly that I'm tired of these white people peeing on my head and telling me that it's raining, and even though that's how I feel, it's that kind of animosity that distinguishes the good blackies from the bad ones in white America's mind. _______________________________
There aren't too many black legislators elected from predominately white areas, for a myriad of reasons, the largest reason being white people don't want to hear what black people really think about them. I think it used to be the same with women and men, with women living their life in quiet disgust while men were more comfortably ensconced in their subtle contempt.
[ February 01, 2007, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:There aren't too many black legislators elected from predominately white areas, for a myriad of reasons, the largest reason being white people don't want to hear what black people really think about them.
Once again, another performance by Irami, race-psychic.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I just caught last night's Daily Show...Biden was on. I thought his comment was poorly worded but I thought the intent behind it was clear -- he was trying (in his offish way) to say that Obama is the first African American presidential candidate with a real chance of winning. I think it was meant to be a compliment...it just ended up being back-handed.
So I wouldn't say he's a jerk. Not presidential material, in my opinion, but not a jerk.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm surprised Irami didn't say that whites were so arrogant that we didn't even know blacks had bad things to say about us, let along not wanting to hear it.
People don't fit into your neat, tidy little boxes Irami. I think I speak for most, if not all white Hatrackers here, when I say the following: When a black candidate comes along who shares my political views and will represent them in Washington, then I will vote for him. If he doesn't then I won't. That's really the bulk of my criteria.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:It smacks of "he's one of the good blackies" to me.
The trouble is that almost all of the people (politicians, media figures, etc.) who have publicly commented on Obama have said pretty much that same thing about him - and it could always be interpretted to mean just that, if you are looking to read that into it. I don't think it is a good idea to read racism into statements like that though, because if you start thinking that way, everyone will seem racist, even if they actually aren't.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
If only there was a comma before "who is...", everything would be fine.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:When a black candidate comes along who shares my political views and will represent them in Washington, then I will vote for him. If he doesn't then I won't. That's really the bulk of my criteria.
That's exactly why I'm not impressed that Barack Obama is a "black" candidate. And I'm not impressed that Hillary Clinton is a potential "woman" candidate. And I wasn't impressed seven years ago when Joseph Lieberman was a "Jewish" vice-presidential candidate.
*sigh* Yes, I understand. Every president we've had in our 200+ years has been a white Christian male, so anyone who's not all of those things is going to be a big deal just because they'll be the first, and because it's taken us shamefully long to reach a first. But still, I do look forward to a time when we can have a black candidate and have people call him a "candidate" rather than a "black candidate".
People always say that it's "time" for a black president or a woman president or whatever. I say it's never "time" for any kind of president except a good president, and that's the only kind I'm interested in electing. I've always said that I don't care if the candidate is a black Muslim lesbian; if I believe she's the right person for the job, she's the one I'll vote for.
As for Senator Biden's slip . . . meh. It's pretty clear what he meant. He worded it badly, and this will probably do serious political damage to him. But I don't think he meant it in a "credit to his race" kind of way.
[Edited to correct the typo in Senator Lieberman's name.]
[ February 02, 2007, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Verily the Younger ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:I think I speak for most, if not all white Hatrackers here, when I say the following: When a black candidate comes along who shares my political views and will represent them in Washington, then I will vote for him.
I can't be the only one who reads this, "If a black candidate comes along with the sensibilities of a white candidate, I'll vote for him."
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:I think I speak for most, if not all white Hatrackers here, when I say the following: When a black candidate comes along who shares my political views and will represent them in Washington, then I will vote for him.
I wish I could say you were speaking for me, but the truth is I can't think of a candidate who shares my political views or who will represent them in Washington. There hasn't been one in any of the elections in which I have voted. (1996-present) I find that neither major political party is at all good and while I continue to keep an eye out for reasonable third party options, at the moment they area ll a bit crazy.
quote:People always say that it's "time" for a black president or a woman president or whatever. I say it's never "time" for any kind of president except a good president, and that's the only kind I'm interested in electing. I've always said that I don't care if the candidate is a black Muslim lesbian; if I believe she's the right person for the job, she's the one I'll vote for.
I think it's time for a *qualified* black or woman president. I do not believe that the only qualified candidates we can come up with are white, male, and Christian. I know that culture takes a while to change, but we are starting to get to the point where we should be able to find qualified candidates from all colors, genders, and religions. Then again, finding such candidates will always be easier than convincing people to vote for them for the first time.
I am a bit afraid of Hillary Clinton because I'm afraid if she wins she will represent all of woman kind to the country and I just want to beg you ... IF she gets to be president, don't judge us all on her. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I can't be the only one who reads this, "If a black candidate comes along with the sensibilities of a white candidate, I'll vote for him."
I can't be the only one who reads this and realizes (although I did some time ago) that you're an unrepentant racist, Irami. "Politics I like..." from a white person does not equal "white 'sensibilities'" and you would correctly object to a white person rejecting a black politician's ideology as "too black".
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I am literally going into shock as I say this, but...
I agree with Irami. Except I take it further. I think Senator Biden's statements were unequivocally racist. I also think that racism isn't as rare as most people in this thread think it is, and I think most of it is subconcious. I think a lot of people don't mean to be racist, but in some ways, subconciously, they are. I don't think saying or thinking "I'm not racist" makes you not a racist.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Speaking for myself, you're not informed enough to know how rare racism in the United States is, blackwolve. I believe the 'subconcious' kind of racism you're discussing is actually quite widespread, perhaps even rampant.
On all sides.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Speaking for myself, you're not informed enough to know how rare racism in the United States is, blackwolve. I believe the 'subconcious' kind of racism you're discussing is actually quite widespread, perhaps even rampant.
On all sides.
I agree. I don't understand the insult you're trying to make in the first sentence, but I agree with the second.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong:
quote:I think I speak for most, if not all white Hatrackers here, when I say the following: When a black candidate comes along who shares my political views and will represent them in Washington, then I will vote for him.
I can't be the only one who reads this, "If a black candidate comes along with the sensibilities of a white candidate, I'll vote for him."
I certainly don't read it that way. There are more white candidates I won't vote for than black candidates, that's for sure.
For me, the true sentiment is this: "When a candidate comes along who shares my political views and will represent them in Washington, then I will vote for him."
The only reason Lyrhawn had to add the word "black" to that sentiment was because of your racial stereotyping.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Irami: White people don't come out of a white person cookiecutter.
There is no such thing as "White politics"
If a low tax, small government, pro-SSM, pro-war-on-terror candidate of any colour threw his hat into the ring I'd vote for him.
Are these "White Politics?" Becuase I can point to lots of white people here at hatrack who disagree with me on some, if not all of those issues.
Or maybe, since I'm bisexual, those are "Gay politics?"
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I'm a happily married heterosexual who is also pro SSM, low tax, and small government. (Not always sure what people mean when they say pro war on terror so I don't want to talk about it without context.) I don't think they are gay politics.
I also don't think they are in line with either major party, which make them the politics of undecided voters. I think that's a terrible way of putting it, actually. It makes us seem wishy-washy when the real difficulty is that we always feel as if we have to choose the lesser of two evils.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I'm a happily married heterosexual who is also pro SSM, low tax, and small government.
It makes you realize how big the government has truly gotten when someone who considers themselves for small government also supports government oversight of lightbulbs.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I said I'm for small government, not no government. When there is a community problem, even a small government has to step in. You are twisting words instead of offering solutions and making useless judgments instead of offering constructive discussion. If your idea of small government and mine aren't the same then fine. Believe it or not, there aren't just two sides to every argument. The world isn't black and white.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Oops...double post.
Posted by jh (Member # 7727) on :
Senator (former) Allen's macaca comment was much worse than Biden's "clean" comment regarding Barack Obama. Macaca has been a derogatory term with undertones of racism for a long time (per Wikipedia anyway), while Biden's comment of "clean" is open to easy misinterpretation.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I think we need to wait for the 'offended party' to be offended before the media whips this essentailly non-news into a frenzy.
From what I heard, Biden talk to Obama, and Obama took the statement in context. Since the offended part is NOT offended where is the problem?????
This is classic news reporting, it has nothing to do with news and everything to do with CREATING preceptions by inflaming the reporting to unrealistic degrees.
Again, shouldn't the 'offended' party be offended before the media blows the whole thing out of proportion???
Steve/bluewizard
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Dag -
Precisely, thank you =)
Irami -
I would be honored if you would educate me in the ways of "white sensibilities" and white politics. I've been a bad, bad caucasian, as I don't know what they are. Maybe I missed the meetings where all the whites got together to discuss them?
What are black sensibilities and black politics?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Blue Wizard: I feel exactly the same way. I really do not like people being offended FOR somebody else who is not offended.
"If it didn't bother me, why should it bother you?"
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Lyr, no problem.
Pix, the "white person cookie cutter" sounds like a bad QVC product.
BlueWizard: Obama is not the potentially offended party here - every other previous black candidate for President is.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Seriously, does anyone think remonstrating with Irami about his racist attitudes is going to have any productive results? Why do it? You're just cluttering up the thread and giving his statements far more attention than they deserve.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Why do it?
Probably for much the same reason you take OSC to task so often concerning intellectuals.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Why is that, do you think?
edit: Yeah, you know what. Don't care. You have a problem with me saying what I did, take it up with me on that thread.
[ February 02, 2007, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Pig and elephant dna just don't splice.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Why is that, do you think?
edit: Yeah, you know what. Don't care. You have a problem with me saying what I did, take it up with me on that thread.
I don't have a problem with it. But I'm pretty sure your complaints about OSC's writings aren't going to have "productive" results, either, except to the extent they inform others of your opinions about what OSC said.
So we're not going to change Irami's mind? We are expressing our opinion about what he said.
Same thing.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
There are maybe a few differences between the two situations that you are not acknowledging.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
There are maybe a few differences between the two situations that you think matter.
The question was "Why?" Not "Are these exactly the same?"
Irami makes attacks constantly about groups I belong to. I choose to respond. Why? So that people know what I think about them.
Why on earth do you post about any topic other than to let people know what you think about it?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think you are misunderstanding the nature of my complaint. Irami's comments, to me, don't deserve to be engaged. Dismiss them by all means, but ... ah I'm too tired to care.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)