quote:The fifth film, "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," is scheduled to come out July 13, just eight days before the final book's release.
So now we have the dates for the fifth movie, and for the publication of the final book.
The article states the book will be over 600 pages. That is not surprising. It will have to be pretty long, because there are a lot of plot threads to be tied up.
I wonder who the two characters will be that are killed off. Losing Draco and Lucius Malfoy would be no great loss. But if J.K. Rowling really intends to end the Harry Potter series once and for all, that would almost require that Harry Potter himself be killed off--otherwise new sequels would always be possible.
And of course we still wonder if Professor Dumbledore is really killed off for good, or only just slightly dead, waiting for Miracle Max to revive him (sorry, mixed fantasies). But it would really be cheating if Dumbledore comes back from the dead, only to be killed off again.
That wart, Peter Pettigrew, is long overdue for extinction. Maybe he'll get caught in a giant mousetrap.
I would most hate to see Hermione Granger bite the dust--of all the characters, I like her the best.
It is possible that Neville Longbottom could die fighting Barty Crouch Jr. and the Lestanges, since they are the ones who tortured Neville's parents to the point they were driven mad. An obsessive desire for vengeance could lead him to bite off more than he can chew.
Just trying to figure out what would be irresistable logic to the author.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Hermione. Writers can't resist killing off women to "provide motive" for the protagonist to act.
[ February 01, 2007, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Hermione. Writers can't resist killing off women to "provide motive" for the protagonist to act.
Then it would be even better to kill of Ginny since Harry saved her life before. His failure to do so now, and the fact he closed a happy relationship with her because he wanted to protect her from just such a fate would be a far more juicy irony for at least this reader.
Hermione can't die until her relationship with Ron is normalized, so she is safe until that happens IMO.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I don't think Harry needs any more motivation to kill the bad guys. Voldemort killed his mom and dad, Belatrix killed his godfather, and Snape killed Dumbledore.
As for the two characters...I would guess that she means two characters other than Voldemort. (I am assuming he will die by the end...who he takes down with him is of far more interest to me.)
I'll give Rowling this much...she's got me scared for the lives of EVERY character, including Harry, Ron, and Hermoine.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I would upset if Draco died. I want to see someone rebel and break free from that insanity. Lucius needs to rot in a cell somewhere.
My guesses are Snape and someone from the Weasley family.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
GOOOODDDDDDAAAAARRNNNIITTT!!!!!!!
I leave for basic July 17!!!!!
OOOOHHHHhhhhhhhh........
Posted by Me, Myself, and I (Member # 10003) on :
In regards to Dumbledore somehow coming back, Rowling said (in the link above) that she has already done her grieving for the character, so that when she wrote his death, it was not as hard for her. This sounds like someone who really has killed off Dumbledore (though I guess it's possible she is referring to her grieving over his 2nd death )
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I don't think Dumbledore's coming back. It has been demonstrated in the series that the dead people don't come back; and Rowling has said on a number of occasions that Dumbledore really is dead. She said it to Salman Rushdie when he asked her about it. She wouldn't have lied to Salman Rushdie.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
In another interview she specifically says that Dumbledore is truly dead and not coming back...I think I read it on www.mugglenet.com.
Even aside from her saying so, I thought the book was pretty clear. Rowling has not been in the habit of resurrecting dead characters. Death is final. Also, from a plot standpoint Dumbledore needs to be dead. Harry has relied on others up until now, but in the last book (the climax) he has to take the lead in killing Voldemort. Any help he has (and he surely will have help) must come from people who follow him rather than people he follows. If you haven't noticed, she's been slowly killing off his support structure all along...first his parents (and she didn't give him nice foster parents), then Serius, then Dumbledore.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Christine, it might be argued that Voldemort returned from the dead--although there is the quibble that he didn't really die, because he had split his soul (or whatever) into seven horcruxes. So actually Voldemort is still going to need to be killed seven more times.
I agree with you, Shanna. I think Lucius Malfoy is the most offensive character, with the way he trashes the Muggle-born as "Mudblood"--even saying it to Hermione. Then of course there is the whole aristocratic snobbery involved in his dissing of decent people like the Weasleys.
And Christine, since as you pointed out, there has been a systematic dismantling of Harry's support structure, isn't it likely that at some point he would be strongly tempted to turn toward the dark side, like Voldemort? I'm not saying he would choose that, only that he would face a strong temptation that he has to overcome.
R.K. Rowling so far has not had anybody who was clearly good turn bad, that I can recall. Tom Riddle, who became Voldemort, seems to have been born bad. Snape was presented as someone who was bad then choose to turn good--but was he really, especially since now he has killed Dumbledore, which seems pretty bad. Unless Dumbledore wanted him to do it for whatever reason. I am still very curious about the character of Snape. (The actor who plays him in the Harry Potter movies is delightful--I loved him in Galaxy Quest, too.)
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:And Christine, since as you pointed out, there has been a systematic dismantling of Harry's support structure, isn't it likely that at some point he would be strongly tempted to turn toward the dark side, like Voldemort? I'm not saying he would choose that, only that he would face a strong temptation that he has to overcome.
I think this is very likely, actually! In fact, I have noticed that Harry (and some of the reading public) have failed to understand what Dumbledore has been trying so hard to teach him -- the power he has that Voldemort does not have is the capacity to love. Harry demonstrated his failure to understand this, IMHO, when he dumped Ginny at the end of book 6. I think she may even be a key in his eventual understanding. I doubt seriously that Harry will end up evil, but I do think that the temptation will be there.
As for Voldemort "coming back" it's like you said..he was never really dead. They said that from book 1. He took incredibly evil and extreme measures to ensure he did not die. Dumbledore didn't do that. He didn't even do what his friend Nicholas did with the Philosopher's Stone (although that only extended life -- I always had the impression that Nicholas could have been killed).
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Not to mention that dumping Ginny was incredibly stupid. Regardless of whether he's actually dating her, her death will still hurt him. And since they've been openly dating for a month, Voldemort is going to find out he loves her. That plotline drives me crazy.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
She's not just killing off two people! She is killing off two people she didn't plan to kill off when she started writing this book, she is also leaving one alive that was to die in the outline.
I do have guesses as to who one of the two extra people she is killing, and the one she is leaving alive, but it's too hard to guess who all will die.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote:If you haven't noticed, she's been slowly killing off his support structure all along...first his parents (and she didn't give him nice foster parents), then Serius, then Dumbledore.
I had a theory once that we would see some serious bloodshed in the last book. I used to wonder if anyone would be left at the end. I couldn't imagine anything more depressing than Harry being victorious in the end but losing all his friends during the battle. After the thing with Sirius, I knew Rowling wasn't going to hold back and play nice.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
My 'bet you $100' prediction is that Snape will die to save Harry. I think it's the only way that Harry will be convinced that Snape is on Dumbledore's side all along. Unfortunately, we have to deal with Harry's "I hate Snape" angst until that happens.
I believe that many more than two important characters will die. I'm predicting a Weasley parent, a Weasley child, one of Harry's foster family, an important professor (again), and at least one of Harry's jeesh (besides the Weasley kid.) That's....5 so far. Not even counting Snape or Voldemort.
Yeah, I don't have a very optimistic outlook. However, I don't believe she'll kill Harry.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Spoilers, obviously.
Snape dying to save Harry would create an interesting emotional dilemma for Harry. I'd almost like to see it just to see how she has him react. After YEARS of hating him, believing that he killed Dumbledore, all the hatred and anger he's poured into their odd relationship, to have THAT be the way that Snape dies, that would really have to rock Harry's world, especially since Harry puts so much weight on his own judgement, believing at times it to be superior to Dumbledore's, or anyone else's.
I think it would advance him, as well as crack him, emotionally in many ways. I like Snape though, I really think he's a good guy, but for that reason, I also want him to die. McGonagal is the only professor I have an interest in seeing spared, as I've always liked her the most, despite the cool guest profs that have been through the DADA revolving door.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I'm putting a bet down on Hagrid. Just major enough for his death to be a major source of emotional drama, while not being so major that she couldn't bear to kill him. Neville's a good casualty as well.
I think the core trio are safe, simply because losing one of them loses a major aspect of the book. It would fall apart a bit after that, lose some of the charm and appeal.
I'm wondering about the Weasleys. Molly's been so anxious about a Weasley dying that the temptation to kill one must be huge. But on the other hand, almost dying (and thus fraying Molly's nerves) seems to be their forte.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Hagrid and Snape will perish. Of this, I am sure.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I think Snape dying is a good bet. I am entirely unconvinced that he is good and more than 99% sure that he is evil. Rowling would have to do quite a bit of work at this point to convince me otherwise, and honestly, dying for Harry isn't enough for me. That sends a mixed message, not a clear one. I need a seriously good explanation for his actions at the end of books 6...maybe that someone used polyjuice potion and only pretended to be Snape or that he was under the Imperious curse. I really think that Snape's betrayal was part of one of her "lessons" that she likes to put in her book -- in this case that anyone can be wrong, even Dumbledore.
Anyway, I would also bet that one of the Weasleys is going to get it...there are just too many of them to all survive. Hagrid is a good bet. He is a major enough character that his death would really affect me. I thought Neville would get it in book 5....so he's still on my list along with most of the other DA members.
There are just so many to choose from. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I doubt Tom was born evil. I wonder if JKR did research about attachment issues. Tom grew up in an orphanage, he lost his mother who didn't have the will to live and take care of him, then he grew up in a place where just his basic needs were met. I think he showed a lot of RAD symptoms in book seven such as being charming to some people and cruel to others. Also he was cruel to animals, that's always a good sign of that.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I've been sure Hagrid would die since book 4, when people started dying.
My $100 bet is that Percy AND Ginny Weasley will die. I think Percy will have a chance to thoroughly redeem himself first, though.
I think it would be financially foolish for her to have Harry die. Not because of the sequels, but because her audience will HAAAAAATE it if Harry dies.
I think Ron and Hermione are safer than Harry, though.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I would not mind Percy dying. I just want Wormtail to die as I do not like him.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'd be surprised if Hagrid dies, he doesn't get involved in the big fights, and he's a giant, which makes him far more resistant to spells in general. While I gather avada kadavra will still take him out like anyone else, I wonder how involved he'll be, but then, he's had a lot of near misses.
I think Snape is a safe bet. I don't know about the Weasley's. Ginny is probably the best bet if one of them has to die, but I'd be perfectly fine with, and not be surprised at all, if none of them dies. Percy I could see being taken out while naively trying to protect the Minister, and Bill and Charlie are both doing Order business all the time, which puts them at risk, though Bill has already suffered a fairly major injury, as has Arthur. Molly stays out of the fighting, as apparently do the twins.
As for Snape, if he truly was evil, why didn't he kill Harry on his way out of the school grounds? He toyed with him, hell, he almost even TRIED to help him. He told him to leave him alone, and even pointed out the faults in his attack technique, but he didn't kill him. There was no reason not to. Voldemort has tried to kill Harry, he has what he wants from him, there's no further reason to keep him alive. And I am convinced that there is more between Dumbledore and Snape than we know from what we've got, assuming Dumbledore stays dead, which I think he will.
Neville is an interesting case. I can see Bellatrix torturing him until he goes as crazy as his parents, just because she's sick like that, or I can see him dying outright, but I think there is a fair, fair chance that Neville will kill Bellatrix. I think his desire for vengeance is strong enough, and his aptitude for DADA good enough, to take her out when the crap hits the fan.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I don't think Ginny will die.
As for Harry, I hope he doesn't die. On the local news last night they quoted several authors, including Stephen King, begging JK Rowling to spare Harry Potter's life. I thought it was amusing.
I just pre-ordered mine! I went to the actual store to do the pre-order because I want to get it as soon as possible. (My mail doesn't come until almost 4 in the afternoon!) Besides, they're doing a midnight party. I might have to join.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Oh I had forgotten about Neville (I really need to start re-reading.) I think if there was any one person in the book I could save from death, it would be Neville. At the same time, I don't want him to kill Bellatrix. Evil woman or not, I don't want that on Neville's soul for the rest of his life. I want him to incapacitate her until the authorities can lock her up in a cell next to Lucius for all eternity.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Narnia: My 'bet you $100' prediction is that Snape will die to save Harry. I think it's the only way that Harry will be convinced that Snape is on Dumbledore's side all along. Unfortunately, we have to deal with Harry's "I hate Snape" angst until that happens.
I believe that many more than two important characters will die. I'm predicting a Weasley parent, a Weasley child, one of Harry's foster family, an important professor (again), and at least one of Harry's jeesh (besides the Weasley kid.) That's....5 so far. Not even counting Snape or Voldemort.
Yeah, I don't have a very optimistic outlook. However, I don't believe she'll kill Harry.
Ack, Narnia!
I just re-read the series.
I think, I really do think Snape is good (Christine, re-read Dumbledore's death scene - that was what sealed it for me). But I can see him dying for Harry, and that would be dreadful, but also maybe the only redemption Snape has open to him now.
I'm not sure on a Weasley parent *and* child, but at least one - probably. And if we're going the Dursleys, maybe Petunia - finally standing up for her sister.
Oh, I can't wait and I don't want to know.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I doubt Tom was born evil. I wonder if JKR did research about attachment issues. Tom grew up in an orphanage, he lost his mother who didn't have the will to live and take care of him, then he grew up in a place where just his basic needs were met. I think he showed a lot of RAD symptoms in book seven such as being charming to some people and cruel to others. Also he was cruel to animals, that's always a good sign of that.
Hey spoiler warning! Most of us don't have time machines! Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:I think, I really do think Snape is good (Christine, re-read Dumbledore's death scene - that was what sealed it for me).
I've read that scene ten times and believe it or not, it's what sealed it for me too...that Snape is definitely evil!
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Nooo - Dumbledore was begging him (Snape) to kill him, so Malfoy wouldn't have to.
Dumbledore was a dead man - if not only from the potion, he was surrounded! He knew that, so why would he ever beg for his life?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I read in an interview somewhere JK Rowling making a slip and seeming to confirm that Hermione would live. I can't find it anywhere now, though. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
There was an extensive interview with Rowling on, I want to say, the Leaky Cauldron, and I seem to remember something to that effect, but I can't be sure.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Snape = good. Good with EXTREMELY lousy attitude, but good.
On the issue of Harry losing all his support structure: I still think that one of the Horcruxes will turn out to be Hogwarts itself. (Possibly Ravenclaw's Tower or Griffindor's Tower, but more likely the whole school itself.) That'd be quite the drama, Harry having to destroy his beloved school...
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I'm convinced that Snape is...maybe not good, but on the side of good. I'd be quite disappointed if, after all the suspicion on Harry's part, Snape actually turned out to be evil. I think Dumbledore's statement about making grave mistakes is meant to be misdirection. I'm hoping we find out in book 7 why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much.
I am also convinced that Dumbledore knew about the unbreakable vow and insisted that Snape kill him. I think he values other peoples' lives and souls over his own--by being willing to die, he saved Snape's life and prevents Draco from committing murder. I also think Snape's reaction to Harry on his way off the Hogwarts grounds is very telling. He just killed Dumbledore--a huge victory for Voldemort's side. You'd think he'd be gloating, but instead he's angry. Exactly the sort of reaction you'd expect from a man who just killed someone he cared about. And then Snape goes and tells Harry what he needs to work on to defeat Voldemort.
Unfortunately, I think Dumbledore isn't coming back. Too much of a cheat, and Dumbledore really does need to be gone to further the plot. Dumbledore's actions throughout the book seem to indicate that he knows he's going to die soon. Maybe he's prescient, or maybe he just had a chat with Snape at some point (the argument that was overheard?).
I have no idea who's going to die in the last book. However, I'm guessing that scar is a horcrux, which could cause some interesting problems for Harry...
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
No, I don't buy the Dumbledore begging Snape to kill him bit. He was begging for his life. Snape's face was full of hatred and loathing as he killed Dumbledore. I also don't believe that Dumbledore knew about Snape's unbreakable vow. Moments before, he was offering Malfoy a way out that involved nobody's death. (Well, it sounded like they would pretend Malfoy was dead.) Voldemort expected Malfoy to fail and be killed in the process. The way it happened, Malfoy has been swept away into the folds of Voldemort supporters.
And after all that, if it does turn out that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, I will lose a lot of respect for the entire series. Maybe Rowling could pull something else out of her butt to redeem Snape, but not that. Dumbledore spent a big portion of the sixth book explaining the damage it does to the human soul to kill another human. I don't believe he would have asked anyone to do that. I also don't buy that protecting Snape's undercover role was worth this price -- he has no one on the good side to report to any longer anyway. They all think he's turned on them.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I'm convinced that Snape was secretly in love with Lily Potter (hence the memory where he cussed her out and lost the feelings of sympathy she previously had for him being termed his "worst" memory)...that that was the thing Dumbledore could never quite bring himself to tell Harry, about why he trusted Snape.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Snape's face was full of hatred and loathing as he killed Dumbledore.
Self-loathing. I think it's absolutely self-evident that Snape is on the side of the good guys.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
IF Snape is actually good, but is trying to keep Voldemort deceived that he is on his side, then it would be important for Snape to ensure that Harry continues to hate him and view him as an enemy--because the psychic link between Harry and Voldemort has been demonstrated several times, and if Harry knew Snape was good, Voldemort would know it too.
That said, I do have to admit that the line about Snape having hate and loathing on his face as he killed Dumbledore is hard to get around. It would be nice if that were self-hate and self-loathing, as TomDavidson suggested, but that requires inserting the word "self" into the text. And that isn't what the author said.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: No, I don't buy the Dumbledore begging Snape to kill him bit. He was begging for his life. Snape's face was full of hatred and loathing as he killed Dumbledore. I also don't believe that Dumbledore knew about Snape's unbreakable vow. Moments before, he was offering Malfoy a way out that involved nobody's death. (Well, it sounded like they would pretend Malfoy was dead.) Voldemort expected Malfoy to fail and be killed in the process. The way it happened, Malfoy has been swept away into the folds of Voldemort supporters.
And after all that, if it does turn out that Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him, I will lose a lot of respect for the entire series. Maybe Rowling could pull something else out of her butt to redeem Snape, but not that. Dumbledore spent a big portion of the sixth book explaining the damage it does to the human soul to kill another human. I don't believe he would have asked anyone to do that. I also don't buy that protecting Snape's undercover role was worth this price -- he has no one on the good side to report to any longer anyway. They all think he's turned on them.
He didn't do it just to protect Snape's cover, he did it probably more to save Malfoy than anything else. Dumbledore clearly didn't believe that Malfoy was a bad guy, and I think the fact taht Malfoy couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore (though his actions DID lead to Dumbledore's death) might bear some of that out, and I think he would have sacrificed his own life to do it. He knew that Malfoy would die if he didn't complete his task, and I also firmly believe that Dumbledore and Snape planned out or at least both knew about the Unbreakable Vow.
But my biggest belief is hinged on the fact that Dumbledore would not beg for his life.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Here's the thing that always bothered me about Snape - Is he really that great of an Occulumens that he can fool Voldy? Sure, Snape is good (maybe good enough to fool Dumbledore?) but Voldemort is, if I recall the phrasing correctly, "the greatest Legilimens of all time" or something of that nature. Snape would therefore have to be the greatest Occulumens of all time to hide his true allegiance from Voldemort. I'm not saying this is conclusive evidence that he's bad, but it is an interesting question that isn't brought up. Why does Voldemort trust Snape?
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Ok, see, Dumbledore and Sirius were points of strength in Harry's life. Ron, Hermione, and Ginny might get in lethal danger--we expect that. But they were there to just sweep in and save the day when necessary.
That's why I say Hagrid. He's supposed to be a constant, which is why he won't be.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
How can one person be so right
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: I'm convinced that Snape is...maybe not good, but on the side of good.
. . . and yet so wrong?
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: However, I'm guessing that scar is a horcrux, which could cause some interesting problems for Harry...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:That said, I do have to admit that the line about Snape having hate and loathing on his face as he killed Dumbledore is hard to get around. It would be nice if that were self-hate and self-loathing, as TomDavidson suggested, but that requires inserting the word "self" into the text. And that isn't what the author said.
Perhaps Snape loathed Dumbledore for pushing him to it, for insisting-demanding, even-that Snape murder him (Dumbledore) in cold blood. I can see myself loving and hating the man quite easily, if I were in Snape's shoes. It's certainly easier for me than accepting Dumbledore would plead for his life, a characteristic never even hinted at in thousands of pages of text.
Snape could've simply been lying about Voldemort's mental-magic capabilities. After all, it's not as though there's a Quidditch championship style contest for the title. There aren't many of the magic mind-readers out there in the first place...
And as for why Voldemort trusts Snape...well, the two simply have so much in common. Unlike many other Death Eaters, Snape seems to have such a casual contempt for everyone except himself, which is quite Voldemort-ish. It's not over-the-top psychotic hatred of all people, it's just seeming to view them as...objects. Perhaps Snape really does view all people like this...or at least, all minus one. It only takes one.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Oh, and as for not using the words self-loathing...well, I don't put much stock in that. I mean, if Rowling were going to have Snape be a good guy and it actually be a surprise, that one word would be a major obstacle to overcome.
Plus, it was Harry who saw this...wasn't it? Wasn't it Harry observing this emotion on Snape's face? Or am I mistaken?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
By the way, who's to say that the hate and loathing Snape is feeling isn't towards Voldemort? If I were being forced to make the type of choice he had to make, I would certainly hate Voldemort for it.
Snape isn't the time to have pitiful sadness on his face when being forced to do what he had to do. He's react angrily, using the emotions he expresses best, which happen to be hate and loathing, with a healthy sneer and scoff to boot.
Of course we won't know for sure for another 6 months or so, but I'm still putting my money on a good Snape.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I'm positive Snape's good (though it pains me -- I've always always wanted him to be evil, especially since he started being such an ass to Lupin in the third book and making fun of Hermione's teeth in the fourth and picking on Neville all the time. That's just mean). I'm also pretty sure he was in love with Lily; I've thought so for several books now, and her being good at Potions just clinches it. Plus that would explain even more why he hates Harry so much, seeing her eyes set in the face of someone who made his life hell.
Does anyone think we're going to get any new information that'll redeem James from their Hogwarts-time awfulness? I hate that it's been left like that. I want to see how James grew up to be nice, dammit!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Fyfe, personally I've met up with several folks who were absolute jerks to me in HS-- and are now apologetic, and are very nice, almost completely different people. So I didn't really have a problem with that. But now that you mention it, we aren't going to get to see much more into James' earlier years. So I would like to see a little contrition on his part, I suppose.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I liked the idea of Dumbledore begging for his life. It was a powerfully emotional moment and it made him so human in the end. That's how I read it and how I hope to be able to remember it.
One thing I've noticed about the "Snape is good" side of this discussion is that it requires an awful lot of reading between lines and in some cases, reading in things that are not specifically in the book. For examlpe "self" in "self-loathing."
Rowling is not a shallow writer, but I've always been very clear on things at the end of her books. The ending was the ending -- she hasn't gone back to date.
It's confession time: I *love* these books. I have read most of them at least 5 times. (I might have only read book 6 3 times). I actually think that Snape genuinely turned to Dumbledore's side at some point and that Dumbledore had a good reason for trusting him. I think something happened in books 5 and 6 (when Voldemort returned) that changed things. He could change his mind once, he could do it again, right? What I really want to know in book 7 (and in fact, expect to find out or I will be quite angry):
1. Why did Dumbledore trust Snape? 2. Why did Voldemort trust Snape? 3. How did Snape manage to hide his true allegiance from the opposite party? 4. What made Snape decide to turn and when?
If Snape turns out to be "good" then there are a lot more questions:
1. Why did Snape kill Dumbledore? **********2. What makes it okay that Snape killed Dumbledore???? 3. Why did Snape make the unbreakable vow? 4. What role is Snape trying to play?
Mostly, though, it's number 2, the one I starred. And to be honest, I have yet to hear a good answer to the question, though I have heard several proposed. Of all the who, how's, and why's it's that what that I can't get past....What makes it okay that Snape killed Dumbledore?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Christine,
quote:I liked the idea of Dumbledore begging for his life. It was a powerfully emotional moment and it made him so human in the end. That's how I read it and how I hope to be able to remember it.
One thing I've noticed about the "Snape is good" side of this discussion is that it requires an awful lot of reading between lines and in some cases, reading in things that are not specifically in the book. For examlpe "self" in "self-loathing."
While pleading for his life does lend some further humanity to Dumbledore, he always felt thoroughly human to me in the way that great leaders do, sometimes. Larger than life. It's not reading anything into the book that isn't there to say that Dumbledore has faced death and mortal peril before, and yet this aspect of his character-a fawning, pleading desperate bid for life-is never mentioned or even hinted at. While it's quite possible that you're right, and Snape is evil...it also takes quite a bit of interpretation to suppose that it isn't an act as well.
And as for the 'self' in self-loathing, well, that's pretty easily explained if Snape is good, and not somehow 'unfair' on Rowling's part. The ending of this book was quite different from others aside from this controversy as well: I don't recall there being such a gigantic, obviously-stated cliffhanger as there is in this one about who got the Horcrux.
---------
As for what makes it OK that Snape killed Dumbledore...well, that's the most easily answered question of all, if Snape is good. Dumbledore is at war with Voldemort. Severus Snape is an extremely valuable, trusted (well, a conflicted trust) spy in Voldemort's camp. Dumbledore knows this, Snape knows this. What if Dumbledore decided-as was hinted by his arguments with Snape-that his life was worth less than this incredibly valuable asset?
Snape and Dumbledore are both unique, even if Snape is truly evil. If he is good, though...well, war isn't a good thing. Sometimes it's just plain awful.
As to why he killed Dumbledore? Surely Dumbledore, if he knew Draco Malfoy would kill him if someone else didn't, would order Snape to do so to spare Malfoy from becoming a cold-blooded murderer?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
This is all based on the premise that Snape is good...
Severus Snape reminds me a bit of Wesley W. Price in Angel from the middle onwards, and of Angel himself in the last few episodes of that show. Like those two, Snape seems to be one of the few people in the story who recognize what being at war with someone, for these sorts of stakes, truly means. He (Snape) appears willing to let himself be deeply hated and mistrusted by his closest friends and allies, to even put the blood of a friend on his hands, to win the war. To do dreadful things in pursuit of victory.
Just like Wesley did, kidnapping Angel's son. That's near the top of the list of awful things someone could do. Just like Angel did, towards the end of the show, putting on his show and planning his ambushes.
Somebody has to be concerned not just with fighting, but with winning. And from what I've seen, the rest of the Order of the Phoenix lacks the intelligence and cunning and ruthlessness necessary for victory. The Harry Potter stories started out, but are not ending up, like a story in which the brave, plucky heroes face challenges and personal sacrifices but manage to conquer the villain. As the stories have become darker, they've also become more real in a sense.
Of course, this probably has something to do with the fact that I'm rewatching the series and it's almost over, so it's coloring my perceptions a bit:)
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Not that I want to give the movies any credibility *over* the books....because i think they usually don't do them justice at best and at worst are hideously drivel-filled children's flicks....BUT we do know through interviews that some of the cast have been told future secrets from the books in order to enhance their roles, as have the directors. so i think it speaks in Snape's favor that the movies paint him more often than not as a pompous bumbler, rather than a seriously frightening, powerful jerk (as per the books.) I was thinking about this today and felt it might hint at Snape's true allegiences rather than any bad acting and/or directing.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:What makes it okay that Snape killed Dumbledore?
It kept Malfoy alive, established Snape as Voldemort's closest ally, and killed somebody who was probably dying already and had already come to peace with the concept.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
That's interesting, Leonide-I didn't know that about the actors being given spoilers to assist in their roles.
I'm not sure I'd agree that Snape is portrayed as a 'bumbler' in the films (although with the exception of the latest two films, I've only seen them once, and it's been a long time)...I'm reminded of Snape in Prisoner of Azkaban in which he puts himself quite deliberately between the children he clearly 'dislikes'(to put it mildly) and a snarling, mouth-foaming, hungry werewolf.
No one else was there. If he'd simply stepped aside, his (and Voldemort's) troubles would be over.
-------
Good point, Tom. Not only was Dumbledore quite old and opposed to life-lengthening potions (as we discovered in the very first story), but he had a rotted, dead lump of hand hanging off the end of one of his arms. It didn't appear to spread, but neither did it go away, either. It could very well have been killing him by inches.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dumbledore isn't afraid to die. Even in the first book he stated how death was just one great adventure. He's not like Voldermort who will kill in order to avoid dying. So it makes sense to me that he wouldn't beg for his life. But, at that point in the book the man was in agonizing pain. Who knew what that potion was doing to him? Before he finihsed it he was screaming like a child in pain and agony because of it. At that point he couldn't even stand up properly and I think he was dying all through the book, especially the way his hand was withered and blackened. I think the look of pure loathing from Snape might have come from having to kill the one person who truly cared about him and trusted him. He was probably angry from being put in that position. Sacrifice, after all, is a common theme in this book, such as Ron in the first book as the knight sacrificing himself so that harry can go in and finish the battle.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote: Somebody has to be concerned not just with fighting, but with winning. And from what I've seen, the rest of the Order of the Phoenix lacks the intelligence and cunning and ruthlessness necessary for victory. The Harry Potter stories started out, but are not ending up, like a story in which the brave, plucky heroes face challenges and personal sacrifices but manage to conquer the villain. As the stories have become darker, they've also become more real in a sense.
This kind of goes along the lines of "the end justifies the means" which does not seem to be something that Rowling is preaching. In fact, she lambasted the ministry of magic multiple times for doing the wrong things for the "right" reasons.
quote:Dumbledore isn't afraid to die. Even in the first book he stated how death was just one great adventure.
No, he's not. This has been of primary importance throughout the series. He may be better prepared for death than any human alive, but that doesn't mean he wants to die, either. I don't think that the two are incomputable.
[ February 04, 2007, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I've heard that explanation for what makes it okay and it just isn't okay to ME. I guess that's my biggest problem with it is that even if it is the truth (and it could be...certainly none of us know how the seventh book will end and that makes it all the more exciting), *I* can't accept it. This may end up being a personal failing of mine, but there you are.
Would you have preferred another death eater had seen the hesitancy of Snape and Malfoy and decided to finish off Dumbledore on his own, thus insuring the deaths of those two as well? Because to me that would have made me quite angry as I have been waiting for Malfoy to start seeing things clearly since book two. Not only that, Harry would have NOT gotten the invaluable advice that Snape was throwing at him while Harry tried to kill him.
"Blocked, again and again and again, until you can keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"
This has been mulled over "again and again and again.." but the author makes a point of closely describing Snape's expressions and emotions at this point. To me Snape clearly enjoyed chastising Harry, and mocking his father in front of him. But he also clearly did not want to kill him and believe me if anybody has enough disdain for Harry it could be Snape. But Snape is still all together good however much he hates being Harry's de facto ally.
Even when Harry accidentally emulated his father by using Snape's spells against him, Snape chose to incapacitate Harry rather then even wound him in some permanent manner, Snape would have been well within limits hurting Potter, and he certainly had the know how.
I just think if Rowling wrote the book as if she was trying to cast serious doubt on Snape's goodness rather then expose him for who he really was.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: In fact, she lambasted the ministry of magic multiple times for doing the wrong things for the "right" reasons.
I disagree. She lambasted the Ministry time and time again for doing the wrong things for the WRONG reason. All of the things the Ministry did, it did to enhance it's own authority and make itself look good, something which both Harry and Dumbledore saw as not a very good reason.
I'm not saying that Rowling believes that "the ends justify the means", just that your example does not prove the point one way or the other.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Hey, just throwing this out there, but if Harry is a Horcrux (I don't think he is, but it is possible), than perhaps Snape didn't kill him because he didn't want to further injure Voldemort. I personally get the feeling Snape is good, so I'm kind of playing devil's advocate, but there are quite a few questions that arise when defending Snape.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't buy the Harry as a Horcrux thing for a lot of reasons, the foremost being that VOLDEMORT ALREADY TRIED TO KILL HIM. Several times in fact. Most especially after he got his body back and after he killed what's his name after the Triwizard tournament. He did the avada kadavra, and it's only because of their linked Olivander wands that the spell was deflected. To say nothing of the fact that he tried to kill Harry to begin with when he was a baby. And all the talk that Dumbledore has done about one of them having to die.
No, there's far, far too much evidence that Voldemort wants Harry dead for me to believe he'd bother turning him into a Horcrux, even if such a thing was possible, which I'm not convinced of to start with.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Exactly.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
One of the things that most convinces me that Snape is likely good, is the way Rowling wrote the end of that book. She left too much unsaid when Dumbledore died. I am convinced that he is permanently dead, but if she wanted to unveil Snape as being evil, she could have had Dumbledore say something like, "Please, Severus, don't kill me. Think about what you're doing," etc. You know, something along the lines he was saying to Malfoy.
Instead, he just pleads, but she never writes what he is pleading for. I think she would have not left Dumbledore's pleadings so vague and unresolved unless she was purposely preparing us for more information later. If Snape did turn out to be evil, and truly killed Dumbledore for evil reasons, I think she would have made his pleadings more specific.
Plus, I just see Rowling as the type of writer who would love to portray Snape as rotten through the whole series, only to have him being one of the most devoted allies to Dumbledore and the cause.
Then again, I can also see her being the type to purposely show that even the greatest people, like Dumbledore, can make mistakes, i.e., his trust in Snape.
So, I guess I'm not fully convinced that Snape is good, but I'm leaning that way.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
quote:That said, I do have to admit that the line about Snape having hate and loathing on his face as he killed Dumbledore is hard to get around. It would be nice if that were self-hate and self-loathing, as TomDavidson suggested, but that requires inserting the word "self" into the text. And that isn't what the author said.
(Actually, what the author said was, "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.")
Rakeesh pointed this out earlier, but I want to emphasize it--the HP books are by and large 3rd person limited. That means that everything we see is essentially from Harry's POV. To Harry, Snape's expression would look exactly the same, whether he was feeling revulsion toward Dumbledore or revulsion toward what he knew he had to do.
That's part of why I think Snape's on the side of good. Harry HATES Snape, and we are constantly and almost exclusively seeing Snape through Harry's eyes, which makes it a lot harder to buy Dumbledore's unshakeable faith.
I do love the fact that I'm not completely sure, though! If I were sure, I wouldn't be looking forward so much to #7.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Rivka:
I didn't say that the horcrux scar would be purposeful, or even known to Voldemort. If the scar is a horcrux, it was an accident. And it's very suspicious that the scar has all these magical connections to Voldemort...
I whole-heartedly agree with the point that the books are written from Harry's perspective. We don't know what that expression on Snape's face was all about. (Is there any possibility the two were communicating non-verbally, given that they could both do legilimency?) Particularly given his continued anger after killing Dumbledore, I think Snape's feelings were directed toward himself (and Dumbledore, for putting him in this situation). Snape's behavior afterward is completely inconsistent with him being on Voldemort's side.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Alright, I'm willing to believe that a living creature can be a horcrux, as Dumbledore suggested Nagini might be one, but from what I've read, I'm led to believe that they are purposefully created, as in, one has to cast a spell to specifically take the split part of the soul and encase it in something else, making an accidental horcrux in Harry impossible.
The close link between Harry and Voldemort, similiar to that of Nagini and Voldemort, IS suspect, but I don't see why he would be so actively involved in trying to kill Harry if he knew, and I don't see how it could be accidentally created when knowledge is required to make it happen, otherwise they'd be created all the time whenever a murder happened.
I don't believe it could be an accident, not when so much effort has gone into figuring out how to do it, and knowledge of how to do it is held by so few.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I don't really think Harry's scar is a horcrux, but I do believe it is possible. If Voldemort was creating a horcrux with the death of the Potters, he may have been doing the spell over James death before he tried to kill Harry and that's how the scar happened and became a horcrux. He would have been making something else (possibly even Nagini) the horcrux when something went wrong with Harry.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Christine,
quote:This kind of goes along the lines of "the end justifies the means" which does not seem to be something that Rowling is preaching. In fact, she lambasted the ministry of magic multiple times for doing the wrong things for the "right" reasons.
Sure, but those 'right' reasons were basically a human-dominated Wizarding World. We have yet to see an example in Rowling's work of ends justifying the means applied towards good means...
Well, actually we haven't. Dumbledore, for instance, has deliberately deceived (or at least permitted him to remain ignorant/incorrect) Harry on numerous instances.
I also think you're neglecting to take into account, as BlackBlade mentions, Snape's pretty clear 'practical instruction' of Harry.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Dumbledore theorized that Nagini was made long after the Potters were killed. But that doesn't rule your theory out.
edited for typo.
[ February 04, 2007, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Me, Myself, and I (Member # 10003) on :
I've been thinking this all over, and I am convinced things will proceed as follows in the last book:
Harry will come to terms with the fact that Dumbledore is never coming back.
He begins to see no good reason to fighting for good: his parents are dead, his godfather is dead, his indestructable mentor is dead, and his school is shut down-the one place in the world he truly loved and felt at home. So, in essence, he has lost all family and his home. He only has his friends, and he feels he must go on alone without them.
Harry goes after Voldemort and Snape, but no longer for the right reasons. He simply wants revenge.
Harry is unable to find Snape before he comes across the Dark Lord. Voldemort brings Harry to the brink of death, but realizes that Harry has been emotionally broken. He offers to spare Harry if he will join him, and then promises to let Harry get the one other thing he wants (besides Voldy's death): Snape's death.
See, by this point, Voldemort has realized that Snape is good, and has been pretending to serve Him. Voldemort knows that Harry is a powerful ally, and that offering to let Harry take out Snape will motivate Harry to join him, since he has nothing else to live for.
So, blinded by rage at being defeated by Voldemort, and by a seething desire to kill Snape, Harry agrees to kill Snape with the Dark Lord's help.
Harry makes some unbreakable vows that ensure he is true to Voldemort. When he confronts Snape, Snape explains to Harry why he killed Dumbledore and that it was part of an agreement he and Dumbledore had made. He tries to convince Harry to leave Voldemort.
Harry cannot overcome his anger and distrust of Snape. Plus, he has made some vows to Voldemort. He and Snape go at it, and Voldemort has provided Harry with some tricks to defeat Snape. Just as he is about to, Ron, Hermione and Ginny show up to save the day, expecting to save Harry. They are then confronted with the fact that Harry is now serving evil.
Harry tells them they will have to kill him if he does not kill Snape, because of the vows he made. After much tension and debate and soul-searching, Ron is brought to the point of deciding to kill Harry. With his wand, drawn, Voldemort shows up, having been keeping an eye on things. A battle breaks out, in which Harry stands unsure of what to do, while the others fight. Snape eventually delivers the curse that kills Voldemort (keeping in mind that Harry would have destroyed the Horcruxes by this point in the story, before he originally confronts Voldemort).
Harry, still bound by his vows, is faced with killing Snape (who he still doesn't trust, and still hates) or dying.
To put him out of his misery, Hermione gets up the courage and kills Harry....
...only to later find out that Harry had created, with Voldy's help, a couple Horcruxes for himself, and some new ones for Voldy. They learn that Harry had to kill people to do this (some of the other vows not specifically mentioned until this point), so they know he is now evil and they must seek out the Horcruxes and destroy them.
So, Snape, Ron, Hermione, and Ginny set out on a quest to destroy Harry & Voldemort's horcruxes, thus spawning a new series where Harry is the villain, along with the Dark Lord, and his friends must destroy him.
Though, of course, they will turn him, at the end of the series, to the good side again, in a story of redemption not unlike that of Anakin and Vader.
You heard it here first. Posted by unicornwhisperer (Member # 294) on :
The beginning sounds promising...
Otherwise it's just plain silly. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Has a lot of shades of Star Wars to it.
I think at the end of Six, Harry has at least accepted the fact that Dumbledore is dead, and furthermore, I think throughout the entire series, he's ALWAYS wanted revenge for what happened to his parents. Dude has some serious anger issues.
Other than that, sounds entirely plausible to me Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Has a lot of shades of Star Wars to it.
Yah think?
I think it's about as likely as finding out that Voldemort was James' father. Posted by Me, Myself, and I (Member # 10003) on :
quote:I think it's about as likely as finding out that Voldemort was James' father. [/QB]
Actually, I didn't mention that in my brief synopsis, but that was going to be one of the facts to be revealed in the last book.
You do realize, that somewhere, in some parallel dimension of ours, that this exact plot will actually be written by Rowling.
I personally, am hoping it's not in our reality.
Okay, off to bed now. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:I think it's about as likely as finding out that Voldemort was James' father.
JKR has explicitly stated that this is not the case. IIRC, it was with a comment to the effect of "No, it's not Star Wars!" Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If Eragon continues the way it started, I think we'll soon find out that Galbatorix is Eragon's father.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I expect Ginny to die, Ron to be tempted by evil, Malfoy to be tempted by good (and die), and Neville to save the day at least once.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Well, at least it made me laugh!
For some reason, the Emperor's March keeps running through my head.
About the only thing I could buy in there was that Harry will initially want to go after Snape and Voldemort for the wrong reasons -- out of a sense of revenge. I think he will discover the right reasons by the end of the book, when he learns how he must harnass the power he has that the dark lord has not.
I think the book will start out with Harry returning to the Dursley's with Ron and Hermione (since that's what they said at the end of the last book). While there, he and the Dursleys are attacked by Voldemort's followers and Dudley manages to pull off some magic. (Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life -- I've narrowed this character down to Dudley or Filch, since she specifically said it wasn't Aunt Petunia. I'm leaning towards Dudley, though. Anyone else have a thought?)
After that I figure they'll go to Bill's wedding and there will be some awkwardness between Harry and Ginny.
I don't think the book will spend a lot of time page time focusing on the search for the Horcruxes, although that will be the backdrop for everything that does happen. The reason I think this is that a pae after page search for artifacts just isn't going to be that interesting. I think R.A.B. (whoever that is) will do some of the legwork for Harry.
I think Hogwarts will reopen, but that harry, Ron, and Hermoine will not attend. I think that whoever lands the Defense Against the Dark Arts job will actually still be there next year.
As for Snape...one thing I've been wondering about his character is whether he's really on anyone's side but his own. Ever since the 4th book when it became clear that he worked as a spy for Voldemort, I couldn't hep but notice that his double agent role gave him the perfect opportunity to choose which side he had "really" been on when he saw the winner. My suspicion is that in the sixth book, he was forced into a situation where he had to choose early. I've also wondered, basd on him dubbing himself "The Half-Blood Prince," if he doesn't have greater ambition than being Voldemort's most trusted servant. Just something I was thinking about...
Will be fun to find out, whatever happens.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Malfoy to be tempted by good
Nah. If you mean Draco, I think he'll remain what he has been since the very first book: A complete and utter coward beneath the attitude.
(Though he just may die. I just sincerely doubt he has it in him to feel much beyond vanity and fear.)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I think it's about as likely as finding out that Voldemort was James' father.
I'm still holding out for not Voldemort, but Snape. That is, I'd bet my farm that the man we know as Snape is James Potter, because of a soul switch or whatever other cause comes up. I've gone into why elsewhere, and I won't bore folk to tears here again.
But, you know, it would be a clever thing to have written a whole other story than the one we thought we were reading. All the references to Harry looking so much like James, the pride in Harry that Snape despises and tries to viciously weed out -- I think Rowling intends us all to have to reread the whole thing all over again as a different story.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
^^ That would be SOOooo cool. I don't think I buy it (yet...have to think), but still. !
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Liz, Snape is shamed and loathes that Harry saw "his" childhood. Does the Snape you know seem like a man who would be unmanned by a boy seeing him having been taunted as a boy? Would it really do him in? Snape's a steely jerk who's had a lifetime of perfecting the withering glance. I think he was shamed that Harry saw James being a horrid little twit -- that was the first time Harry had his idealization of his father questioned, much less shattered. I can see that unmanning a grown man, however hardened.
I think "Snape" loathes what he sees of himself that brought about Lily's ruin -- the pride, the arrogance -- when he sees it in Harry.
And all the freakin' references to "you look so much like your father, Harry!" over and over and over again. It reeks of misdirection to me.
Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
CT, is that theory still possible considering what she said about a similar theory (that Lupin was James)?
quote:An ingenious theory, but no; James would never have saved himself and left his wife and son to die.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Plus, I can't help but think that soul switching would be a pretty dark art.
I will give you points for creativity, though! Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amilia: CT, is that theory still possible considering what she said about a similar theory (that Lupin was James)?
quote:An ingenious theory, but no; James would never have saved himself and left his wife and son to die.
Sure. Who said it was voluntary?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Plus, I can't help but think that soul switching would be a pretty dark art.
I will give you points for creativity, though!
Again, who said it was voluntary?
But I'm happy to sit and wait patiently for the actual denouement. I merely want my particular hat to be seen in the ring beforehand, just in case I'm right. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I expect Tom is correct on at least 3 of 4.
CT, I recall your full explanation of your theory. I still think what I did then -- very clever, very detailed, but I don't believe it. Partly because my answer to
quote:Does the Snape you know seem like a man who would be unmanned by a boy seeing him having been taunted as a boy?
is YES. Every thing in his life, his sense of self and of purpose derive from his determination to never be that weak again. That is why he fell in with Voldemort. It is why he hates the connection he has with Dumbledore, who knows him down to his soul and loves, respects, and trusts him anyway. It is a form of weakness. And Snape despises weakness, most especially in himself.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
The plot isn't quite what you describe, but Snape is Harry's father. I think you would enjoy it. It's very well-written.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Does the Snape you know seem like a man who would be unmanned by a boy seeing him having been taunted as a boy? Would it really do him in? Snape's a steely jerk who's had a lifetime of perfecting the withering glance.
Just because someone rarely (if ever) displays certain emotions outwardly, it doesn't mean they do not have them. Voice of experience and master at repressing emotions speaking here.
I think he was shamed that Harry saw James being a horrid little twit -- that was the first time Harry had his idealization of his father questioned, much less shattered. I can see that unmanning a grown man, however hardened.
This only works if one ignores the many, many, -many- times Snape has talked trash to Harry about James Potter...especially in book three, where he openly told Harry that James was part of a plot to do Snape harm, and only saved Snape out of fear of being caught.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I tell you what, CT...your hat is thrown in and I'll give you trillion to 1 odds against your theory.
Suddenly, the idea that Snape is still one of the good guys seems so reasonable. Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
*sighs* I really mourn for the days of the third book. Life was so much simpler when Snape was just a big poophead and Sirius and James were Good Guys and everything was fine.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
quote:Christine said: "Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life "
The person I think this is most likely to be is Petunia Dursley. She is the sister of Lily, who was a witch, and thus has the potential for having some powers herself, if she is forced by extreme circumstances to set aside her lifelong denial of magical powers. She already knows something about the wizarding world. When Harry told them that Dementors had attacked Dudley (in book 5, was it?), she seemed to know what that meant, what Dementors were.
I sure would like to see Vernon's face when his wife works magic.
Of course, it could be Dudley, too, since he is the child of the sister of a witch. But for him it would not be "late in life." Again, Petunia does fit this. Plus, JKR has spent too much time making a buffoon out of Dudley, second only to Vernon.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Rowling has already said it won't be Petunia.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I believe what JK Rowling actually said regarding Petunia is that she is not a Squib, although I might be mistaken.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Rumours Aunt Petunia will start exhibiting magical tendencies
No, she won't. Aunt Petunia has never performed magic, nor will she ever be able to do so.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: [QB]
quote:Christine said: "Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life "
The person I think this is most likely to be is Petunia Dursley.
Read a little more of the post of mine that you quoted and you will see the very reason I did not choose Petunia...Rowling already said it wasn't her. Aside from that I would have totally agreed with your logic. Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
If JKR said that Petunia is not a squib, then that is a dead giveaway. She must actually be a witch in denial. Maybe as a child she found her power was much less than Lily's, and resentfully chose to deny magic altogether, since that was the thing that she appears to have believed elevated Lily in their parents' sight.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I expect the one performing magic to be Mrs Figg, the cat lady. Unless I'm forgetting something major, which is possible.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Ron, JKR has said that "Aunt Petunia has never performed magic, nor will she ever be able to do so."
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Ron -- in an interview I read on mugglenet, JKR specifically said that Petunia was not the person who would perform magic late in life in the same breath that she said someone would. I'd quote it for you, but I can't see to access mugglenet today. Trust me, it's not Petunia. It's a shame, really. I would kind of rather it be her. It would be fitting after her years of jealousy and what not. I figure it's Dudley, though, because he does share blood with Petunia and Lily.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*taptaptap* Is this thing on? It's not Petunia. JKR disputed that on her website. There's a link.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I tell you what, CT...your hat is thrown in and I'll give you trillion to 1 odds against your theory.
Okay then, I'll put a dollar on CT's theory being right. If she's wrong, I'm only out a dollar, but if she's right...I'm rich!
Seriously, I wouldn't say that that is definitely what Rowling has planned, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see CT's theory proved correct.
quote:Suddenly, the idea that Snape is still one of the good guys seems so reasonable.
I'd be stunned if Snape weren't "one of the good guys". There is, in my estimation, almost no chance at all that he's fallen out of league with Dumbledore.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I don't think JKR would consider Dudley late in life. Yes it is after he would have gone to hogwarts, but he's not near the end of his life, well unless Harry gets really mad, that would work in Me Myself's theory.
I am also 99% sure that RAB is Regulus Black, I can't find the exact text now, but in one language edition the black family is the Z____ family, and in that edition it says RAZ. JKR has also smiled when asked if it was the case but didn't answer either way.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: I expect the one performing magic to be Mrs Figg, the cat lady.
Seems plausible.
quote:Originally posted by katharina: *taptaptap* Is this thing on?
*removes Katie's CoI*
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
"Late in life" is one of those things that can mean a lot of things to different people. Kind of like when my husband is working on his computer and says, "It'll just be a few minutes!"
I think it would be highly amusing if it were Vernon Dursley, but also unlikely.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:*removes Katie's CoI*
I don't know what this means. See Oh Eye?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
But Dudley would not be performing magic late in life, so it couldn't be him.
If it's not Petunia, then maybe it is Mrs. Norris, the cat familiar that goes around with Filch. Apparently she is an animagus who got stuck in cat form.
I do not think that it could be Arabella Figg (the "cat lady" who has been watching over Harry while living at the Dursleys); I think she was said to be a squib.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
If Dudley did it, it would be late in life compared to most wizarding kids, whose magical powers seem to manifest around the age of ten. I didn't take "late in life" to mean old age.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Hmm, I don't really buy that, Shigosei--but if it were true, it would be funny if Dursley gave Harry a pig's tail.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Ron, yes Mrs Figg was said to be a squib, but being said she is a squib doesn't mean she isn't the one performing magic for the first time.
If Mrs Norris had been an animagus then she already had done magic (fairly high level magic) so it wouldn't be her.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Besides Mrs. Figg it could be the other Squib prominently featured in the book-- Filch.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I thought of Mrs. Figg and there's no reason it shouldn't be her except that, IMHO, it would be the least interesting character to do this. She's just not that important of a character.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
She is on the side of good, and very useful if something happens at the Dursley's, it would be an ooh moment. Mr Filch wouldn't be that interesting, it would require lots of text to make him have a reason, where Mrs Figg is easy.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Wait... what exactly was CT's theory?
I really, really don't see Snape as a bad guy. He's going to turn out to be a good guy after all. If he doesn't... well, then I'd have to say that Rowling did a great job of building a very subtle characterization completely without knowing what she was doing, which seems next to impossible from where I sit in the cheap seats.
I will also be very disappointed if Draco doesn't at the very least have an opportunity to redeem himself a bit.
As to who will die, I refuse to speculate. I don't think there are any sacred cows, up to and including Harry himself.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I want Voldemort to win. It's totally a pipe dream, and it'll never happen, but it would be so awesome if it did.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina:
quote:*removes Katie's CoI*
I don't know what this means. See Oh Eye?
Cloak of Invisibility. Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I'm now checking to see where Filch was during the battle at the end of HPB, I don't remember at all.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I want Voldemort to win. It's totally a pipe dream, and it'll never happen, but it would be so awesome if it did.
Indeed.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
"If it wasn't for you meddling kids and your %#%!@$@! dog, I would've gotten away with it."
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: Wait... what exactly was CT's theory?
Her theory is that the soul of James Potter has secretly possessed Severus Snape's mortal frame for the past 17 years.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Noemon, I'll lay my dollar next to yours. Sure, it's only a starter seed, but if this plant flowers, we'll have a beanstalk to rival Jack's anyday.
Thanks, blackwolve! I'll check it out.
-----------
Ahhh, rivka, my nemesis ... *grin
-----------
quote:This only works if one ignores the many, many, -many- times Snape has talked trash to Harry about James Potter...especially in book three, where he openly told Harry that James was part of a plot to do Snape harm, and only saved Snape out of fear of being caught.
PT, I account for this as self-loathing. Same as rivka, but expressed in a different manner. This is why he despises what he sees of himself in Harry, too.
Look, y'all, it's no matter who's right. We'll find out soon enough. I intend to bankrupt Christine, though. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: Wait... what exactly was CT's theory?
Her theory is that the soul of James Potter has secretly possessed Severus Snape's mortal frame for the past 17 years.
Not necessarily. I said I bet there was a switch, but I didn't say where or when.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
About the whole late in life thing ... it could be Dudley, who saves Harry right before he (Dudley) dies. Just sayin, late in life could equate to "about to die" instead of "really old" or "late bloomer". I don't know though.
I also don't think Snape is James because he's been so sickeningly nice to Draco. I think that would be the hardest for him to pull off. It's a lot easier to fake being mean than to fake being nice.
Any by the by ... How old was Dumbledore? The dude must have been seriously old, so it's possible that it will be revealed that Dumbledore knew from the beginning of book 6 that he was going to die soon, which would explain Snape so quickly agreeing to take the Unbreakable Vow regarding his death. But then, I'm not sure why he wouldn'tve told more people. Just brainstorming here.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Mrs. Figg sounds very, very plausible to me. I expect the scene will take place early in the book while Harry is still at the Dursleys, and I'd bet it's Mrs. Figg. Figg and Filch make the most sense, given that it has to be an older person.
How many other non-Wizard characters does the story even have?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
quote:"If it wasn't for you meddling kids and your %#%!@$@! dog, I would've gotten away with it."
When talking about Pirates of the Caribbean, I ONLY use the term, "Puh-puh-puh-PIRATE GHOSTS!" As in, "Hey, look! (POTC SPOILER) . . . . . . . Now Johnny Depp is a puh-puh-puh PIRATE GHOST! too!"
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Ahhh, rivka, my nemesis ... *grin
*twirls mustache*
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
You know you can get that waxed, right?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
The way Schmee waxed Hook's mustache in Hook?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
breyerchic04, maybe Mrs. Norris was changed into a cat by someone else, and she did not want anyone to change her back so she could escape from an abusive husband, and Filch took her in. Or else Filch himself was the abusive husband, but likes cats. I thought it was hilarious in movie four when Filch was dancing with the cat, who was purring. There is some element of dysfunction there, it is just a question of what it is.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:"Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life"
Could Rowling be saying "A character who has never done magic in the books will do....etc."
That allows for even Percy Wesley to fit the bill, unless there is an instance of him performing magic that I cannot recall, obviously he does use magic, just saying there is no instance of it happening.
I wonder if there are other wizards and witches who simply have not been recorded to have performed magic.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I think the dysfunction is simple enough, she's a cat, he's a squib, they spend too much time together.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
If an animaculus is a human who can take the form of an animal, is there a such thing as a humanculus, an animal who can take the form of a human? There was an episode from the second season of Charmed that dealt with that idea. A snake, a pig, and a rabbit were turned into humans, so three wannabe witches could have dates. Things got complicated when the humanculi exercised their new found free will, and decided they wanted to remain human. Things got even more complicated when it turned out the snake was poisonous. Oh well, I don't suppose JKR pays much attention to US TV fantasy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Animagus. And doubtful. Why would animals be able to do magic in the first place?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Several animals/non-humans have magical properties, and can do magic like things in Rowling's world.
Sarah -
quote:I think the dysfunction is simple enough, she's a cat, he's a squib, they spend too much time together
Tomayto, tomahto, let's call the whole thing off!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Several animals/non-humans have magical properties, and can do magic like things in Rowling's world.
The only ones I can think of clearly derive their magical elements from a human (either ancestor or one they associate with).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The one who'll do magic late in life is Filch.
Snape is NOT James, and he is not serving Voldemort (which is not enough to make him "good," of course).
Harry lives.
Voldemort dies.
Neville becomes the Herbology teacher.
We get to see McGonegal go medivial on someone.
Ginny, Ron, or Hermione die in a relatively early encounter with Voldemort, and this encounter will give Harry the clue he needs to figure out how to beat Voldemort.
(One theory on how V. dies: Harry goes to sacrifice himself, but the connection his blood creates with V. (from Book 4) means that V. dies. If this is the case, then Harry will not have gotten a clue as to how to defeat V. Rather, his plans will all have come to nothing before the moment of sacrifice.)
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Ok, I'm a sap, but I really hope Ginny doesn't die. Ron and Hermione are fair game. I just think it'd be a low blow for Ginny to get offed. Or to end up with someone else. Oh, I'll just come out and say it - I want Harry to live a long happy life with Ginny. So sue me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove: I want Harry to live a long happy life with Ginny. So sue me.
Me too, but I'm not convinced it will happen in book 7.
Hooray for fanfic. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:We get to see McGonegal go medivial on someone
I hope so!
quote:The only ones I can think of clearly derive their magical elements from a human (either ancestor or one they associate with).
There are tons of creatures that have magical properties, but there are also several intelligent non-humans who can either do magic outright or who have special abilities. Veelas and Leprechauns have special powers, and aren't human, or as a race, necessarily derived from humans. House Elves also have their own kind of magic that is not dependent on humans.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: [QB] Noemon, I'll lay my dollar next to yours. Sure, it's only a starter seed, but if this plant flowers, we'll have a beanstalk to rival Jack's anyday.
Hmmmm....this is actually beginning to sound lucrative if I can get enough people to put dollar bets on this. A thousand people put up a dollar because "it's only a dollar" and I'm up a thousand bucks.
Meanwhile, if Snape ends up being James after some kind of soul switch then maybe I can sneak back to reality through the same wormhole I must have left through.
Too bad I'm such a softy. I could never bring myself to actually collect. Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
Wormtail kills Lupin. I just wish it was OVER already so I can stop dreading it.
Snape is a good guy.
Ni!
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
Wormtail is NOT GOING to kill Lupin. It WILL NOT HAPPEN. The silver hand is to kill VOLDEMORT. Because Wormtail owes Harry a DEBT. And he's going to PAY it by KILLING VOLDEMORT. Lupin is going to live happily ever after with Tonks who he loves!
*deep breaths* *sharpens knives to whack off Wormtail's arms if he tries to kill Lupin*
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I think I remember Rowling specifically saying that Wormtail's hand was not intended to kill Lupin...but I never thought it was so I didn't really pay attention to where I read that. I always figured that somehow Peter was going to use it to help save Harry because he owes him a debt.
I would be surprised if it were the final death blow, though. No good reason for that...just would be surprised.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Thanks, rivka. I stand corrected. Should have looked it up. Animagus and humagus sound better.
Unicorns are magical. So are centaurs--remember the one who teaches a class in magic at Hogwarts? Dragons arguably are magical too, since they do not naturally exist (at least not at present--I have heard a theory that T-Rexes and possibly some other dinosaurs could breathe fire in the form of binary compounds that burst into flame when mixed).
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I think everyone should take a look at mugglenet's debunked rumors page, although I don't hold out much hope for anyone doing so.
Amoung other things: Peter Pettigrew's silver hand will not kill Remus Lupin.
Dumbledore is really dead.
Mrs. Norris is not an animagus.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I wouldn't be surprised if Wormtail is involved in helping to find some of the more obscure and well hidden Horcruxes.
Wormtail is one of those stupid minions that bad guys always trusts implicitly, because he never imagines the minion will ever grow the nerve to betray him. The best example that comes to mind is Saruman and Grima.
I think precedence bears out though, that these simple minions always have another layer that the bad guy never sees, and it usually becomes a thorn in their side.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
If Voldemort dies, Wormtale should be allowed to slink away, as much as I hate him. I really would rather not have a, "Good always wins, and evil gets it's just comeuppance in one sweeping strike" ending.
I favor Filch as the one who will perform magic as well.
I remember Rowling in a press conference saying that one of the questions she was surprised nobody asked was "Why didn't Dumbledore try to kill Voldemort?"
I still don't really have the answer for that. I know the Prophecy states that in regards to Harry and Voldemort, one will kill the other, but I seriously doubt Dumbledore didn't try to kill Voldemort because he wanted to observe a prophecy.
If it was out of mercy why then did he go about with Harry destroying horocruxes, the aim was clearly to kill Voldemort and destroy all ties he has with the world?
I am unconvinced that Dumbledore saw some sort of good in Voldemort, "aka Darth Vader syndrome."
Was Dumbledore hoping that Voldemort would try to posses Harry as a way of observing the nature of the "love protection" Harry enjoys?
I really cannot see why Dumbledore would allow such a dangerous person to continue but clearly there was a purpose. I mean, Dumbledore did everything with ALOT of calculation and purpose. He certainly was not perfect as demonstrated by the fact he got killed, but he was very inteligent and I have yet to hear him articulate why he did this!
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Blacwolve, if Mrs. Norris is not an animagus, then why does Filch call a cat "Mrs. Norris?"
Unless, as I suggested earlier, she was turned into a cat by someone else.
Which reminds me--all cats by definition are magical creatures. They are capable of telepathy, and sometimes--like Shroedinger's cat--can teleport.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: [QB] Blacwolve, if Mrs. Norris is not an animagus, then why does Filch call a cat "Mrs. Norris?"
Last I checked, you can call a cat any darn thing you want.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Also don't forget the Cheshire Cat.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Blacwolve, if Mrs. Norris is not an animagus, then why does Filch call a cat "Mrs. Norris?"
Unless, as I suggested earlier, she was turned into a cat by someone else.
Which reminds me--all cats by definition are magical creatures. They are capable of telepathy, and sometimes--like Shroedinger's cat--can teleport.
JK Rowling says Mrs. Norris isn't an animagus. I don't particularly care one way or another. I always found both Filch and Mrs. Norris to be incredibly boring characters.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Blacwolve, if Mrs. Norris is not an animagus, then why does Filch call a cat "Mrs. Norris?"
Why do people name their cats Mrs. Whiskers or Mr. Bottomsley? People are weird, and Filch certainly fits that bill.
Posted by Geraine (Member # 9913) on :
My theory:
Snape loved Lilly, and hated James. So Snape thinks "Ok, if I cant have Lilly, I will go after the next best thing!" So he starts going with Petunia. But then Petunia finds out during a......"personal moment" (To put it lightly) that Snape is really in love with Lilly, and then calls it off right there!
Petunia blames it on Lilly, possibly accusing her of casting a love spell on Snape to love her instead of Petunia.
Lilly and Snape where not together but still kept in touch. Perhaps Snape let Lilly know a lot of information about Voldemort because he loved her, and this is why Voldemort told Lilly to step aside when he was going after Harry.
LOVE TRIANGLE! Its like a magical Days of our Lives! My wife laughed at me. Oh well
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: There are tons of creatures that have magical properties, but there are also several intelligent non-humans who can either do magic outright or who have special abilities. Veelas and Leprechauns have special powers, and aren't human, or as a race, necessarily derived from humans. House Elves also have their own kind of magic that is not dependent on humans.
All hominid. Therefore (and I admit I'm assuming, but it is true in a great many of the traditional sources JKR is drawing from), derived from humans.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Thanks, rivka. I stand corrected. Should have looked it up. Animagus and humagus sound better.
Yeah, and homunculus means something rather different. (which is why I even noticed -- I know the word from some book or other.)
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Unicorns are magical. So are centaurs--remember the one who teaches a class in magic at Hogwarts? Dragons arguably are magical too, since they do not naturally exist.
Centaurs are also human-derived. Good point on the unicorns (whose blood is definitely magical) and dragons (whose scales are). However, they ARE magic; they don't DO magic. I still think only humans and human-derivatives can actually do magic.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Fawkes can do a form of apparating.
Posted by Adam_S (Member # 9695) on :
My theories are quite complicated, based on some questions I've been asking myself.
What aspect of the founder's artifacts made Voldemort pursue them? Was it just that they represented Hogwarts or is it something more related to the nature and roots of magic? if the latter is true does that make them more powerful or more likely to prevent death?
Why would Voldemort trust Snape originally and recently (pre dumbledore death)?
Who went with RAB into to the cave? How would the potion affect other magical species? How likely is Voldemort to overlook those he would be inclined to despise (such as muggles or house elves or centaurs) when concocting the potion? Is that a clue towards the protections on the other horcruxes (ie Dobby and Firenze help Harry acquire/break their protections)?
What is up with the non core jeesh handing Harry notes from Dumbledore, why didn't Ron hand one to Harry (they were the two new beaters, Ginny, Hermione, and Luna)? Are the notebearers connected to the lesson that Harry received (such as Ginny delivering the note where Harry learns the full significance of the diary)?
Can Harry kill Voldemort with a horcrux? The best protection Dumbledore could give to the Sorcerer's Stone was very clever. What if Voldemort hid the sword in the hat in a similar manner, knowing he (Voldemort) would never be able to withdraw it again, but ensuring a part of his soul would always be at Hogwarts ready to return? That would mean Harry foreshadowed how he will kill Voldemort when he killed the Basilisk (also when he destroyed his first horcrux). Does Voldemort become stronger when attacked by a horcrux, or do both die? Could Harry use the Horcruxes to shield himself from avada kedavras from Voldemort, forcing Voldemort to destroy his own horcruxes?
so my theory is: Voldemort intended to use the founder's artifacts (cup, sword, locket(stone?), wand) as horcruxes because they embodied the elements of magical heritage. They were symbolic, magically significant, and already shown to possess a singular longevity in comparison to the rest of the Founders' era. The final three horcruxes would also need to be linked. Think about the potion that revived him--servant, father, enemy--and how the Diary and Ring horcrux (tied to his life/family as well) were formed. His final horcrux would be formed from the death of his greatest enemy, the one destined to destroy him. This explains Dumbledore's look of triumph--Voldemort was vulnerable--Harry had not been killed, his death (and the subsequent horcrux from it) had not completed Voldemort's magic. This is also why Voldemort insisted on no deatheater killing Harry, because Voldemort had yet to form the final horcrux. Because he only formed six before Lily's protection 'killed' him.
(What object would the seventh horcrux have been?)
After returning, it seems he created a seventh in the form of Nagini, based on how Harry saw through Nagini's eyes as well as Voldemort's (indicating a split in the soul Harry is magically connected to by the Avadada Kedavra that failed to kill Harry and connects him to Voldemort) at different points, but this still lacks the magical seventh protection because one horcrux had already been destroyed, so Voldemort still isn't safe. And his oppurtunity is destroyed because he split himself without the death of his greatest enemy (perhaps he used a traitor/former servant, Karkaroff, instead) and it no longer achieved the desired seven splits, and his soul will be too diluted to make an additional split.
So here's my theory as to why Dumbledore trusted Snape. The deatheaters knew there was a traitor to the Order, but the traitor was unknown to all the death eaters save Voldemort until Pettigrew revealed the Potters' location. Voldemort, triumphant, presented Pettigrew to his death eaters, After Voldemort left, Snape snatched Pettigrew and took him to Dumbledore (and Hagrid), and jointly they made Pettigrew reveal the location of the Fidelius Protected House--therefore Snape betrayed Voldemort before his downfall in a desparate attempt to save Lily.
Snape has hated Harry ever since because Lily didn't survive, but Harry did. And Harry's fame for surviving, and the relative obscurity of Lily's sacrifice* as the true slayer of Voldemort must have further enraged Snape. Harry then getting all the credit for magically defeating Voldemort must have just made it worse. Only Dumbledore and Snape understood what had actually killed Voldemort, Lily's magic, not Harry's. Lily's death was never properly honored, in Snape's mind.
Dumbledore and Snape (and possibly the Order) left to round up the deatheater ringleaders, Hagrid was entrusted with Harry and told to arrive at Privit Drive, later. Sirius found out from Hagrid where Dumbledore was keeping Pettigrew and chased Pettigrew to the town of their confrontation before Dumbledore could stop him, because at that point, Dumbledore was performing the magic that would protect Harry for the next sixteen years.
Since Pettigrew had framed Sirius in front of witnesses and because Dumbledore had essentially singlehandedly rounded up every major death eater and had them imprisoned and awaiting trial, the Ministry acted with the one 'death eater' in their control and imprisoned him without trial before Dumbledore or Snape could ever give evidence to save him. Since the press got ahold of the story, it was impossible to turn popular opinion on Sirius Black's status as the worst of the death eaters, completely preventing Dumbledore from saving the one innocent the Ministry arrested. It was Dumbledore's preoccupation with Sirius Black that allowed a few death eater ringleaders like Malfoy, Nott, Crabbe and Goyle to walk free on technicalities, a side effect that was aided by a Ministry now worried Dumbledore was going to accuse them of a mindless purge, of imprisoning innocent(s); they were worried he might raise popular opinion against them, Dumbledore alone benefitting from the political capital of victory in the war. So in a sense Dumbledore is responsible for their freedom, one of the more enormous mistakes of his life.
I have a side theory that Snape and Dumbledore were already in tentative negotiations, but it's more oddball and has to do with RAB and Sirius. I think Snape joined Voldemort (he's not a follower) only because Sirius was a leader in the Order, and the war offered him an oppurtunity to kill Sirius. I think before Pettigrew was revealed as the traitor to the death eaters, the rumor amongst the deatheaters was that the traitor was Sirius, because Regulas was passing information about his brother to Bellatrix without realizing it was being used against his brother, a realization that eventually caused Regulas to turn on Voldemort. But the rumor that he was fighting on the same side as Sirius was enough to cause Snape to see about betraying Voldemort to fight against Sirius from the other side. But it was the oppurtunity to save Lily's life and caused Snape to turn traitor on Voldemort. And it was Snape's information about the location and identity of the deatheaters that proved invaluable to rounding them up. And it was probably Snape's refusal to clear Sirius that insured Sirius stayed in prison.
*(the most powerful magical acheivement ever, stopping the unstoppable curse, destroying the most powerful dark wizard ever)
[ February 05, 2007, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Adam_S ]
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:"Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life"
Could Rowling be saying "A character who has never done magic in the books will do....etc."
That allows for even Percy Wesley to fit the bill, unless there is an instance of him performing magic that I cannot recall, obviously he does use magic, just saying there is no instance of it happening.
I wonder if there are other wizards and witches who simply have not been recorded to have performed magic.
JKR has said, "There is a character who does manage, in desperate circumstances, to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare..."
Just had time to check the exact wording, this means it's someone who has never done magic before, and someone who is quite late in life, not just later than normal magic age.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
quote:You do realize, that somewhere, in some parallel dimension of ours, that this exact plot will actually be written by Rowling.
I personally, am hoping it's not in our reality.
So, MMI gets me a-thinkin', if you guys could live in any parallel dimension that you chose (remembering that EVERY possible plot situation will occur in at least one other dimension), which plotline dimension would you choose?
Put in English, how would the plot proceed in Book 7 if you got to choose it, no matter how unlikely? The only catch is that it cannot obviously contradict what has already been written, since you will be choosing a dimension that has followed Rowling's books exactly, word-for-word, up through book 6.
(Why do I suddenly feel like a Star Trek nerd?)
Personally, I would like a few things to occur:
1) Voldemort will come across some huge mistake or oversight on his part, that will lead to his undoing (since Harry will have discovered this weakness). It will be really cool, for us the readers, to watch Voldemort come to realization with his own mistake, since he values his superiority so much.
2) Hagrid will somehow help Harry, in the end, defeat Voldemort in some noble way. I don't know why, but I really want to see Hagrid do some serious magic, while acting the Hero to save Harry. (mind you, Hagrid will not defeat Voldemort, just help Harry survive the battle).
3) Draco will eventually realize, through some action on Voldemort's part, how rotten the evil side is. He will realize that Voldemort actually cares nothing for him. It will give him the wake-up call he has needed. He will be the one to kill his own father in an attempt to stop his father from killing or hurting someone else.
4) We will learn that Snape is good, and he and Dumbledore had a very good reason for Snape killing the latter. Snape will be put in a situation where Harry is the only one who can save him. Harry will face one of the toughest decisions of his life, as he must decide whether to trust Snape and save him, or kill him (or at least let him die). Harry will save him, and Snape will be humbled enough to actually thank Harry. Snape will then teach Harry enough things to give him the final preparation (i.e. legilimency (sp?) training) to defeat Voldemort.
5) Harry and Ginny will get together. At least one thing good needs to happen to Harry in his life.
That's all for now. What does everyone else want?
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I remember reading J. K. Rowling in an interview saying that she'd been to a Harry Potter fansite and posted her own (anonymous) take on what was going to happen... and no one believed her or paid any attention to her.
So, heck, Christine could actually BE J. K. Rowling having fun making some bets before book 7 comes out... Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:"Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life"
Could Rowling be saying "A character who has never done magic in the books will do....etc."
That allows for even Percy Wesley to fit the bill, unless there is an instance of him performing magic that I cannot recall, obviously he does use magic, just saying there is no instance of it happening.
I wonder if there are other wizards and witches who simply have not been recorded to have performed magic.
JKR has said, "There is a character who does manage, in desperate circumstances, to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare..."
Just had time to check the exact wording, this means it's someone who has never done magic before, and someone who is quite late in life, not just later than normal magic age.
Forgive me if I missed this debate, but why can't this "late in life" character be Filch? We've seen him trying to learn magic with that QuikSpell packet - if Mrs. Norris really died or if the Death Munchers stole his manacles, I can see him snapping and letting a few sparks fly.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Does that quote regarding a late-bloomer necessarily refer to an upcoming incident in book 7? Rowling has revealed on several occasions that for many characters she has developed very extensive life-histories that will not be revealed to readers because of either editting or a lack of necessity. No doubt she has stories for very minor character mentioned only in passing. It may not be important to the plot that we know about a certain character who can perform magic in times of crisis, but such information may help her understand her own universe or reason through the actions of related characters. It doesn't mean it will appear in the seventh book.
Does that make any sense?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by plaid: I remember reading J. K. Rowling in an interview saying that she'd been to a Harry Potter fansite and posted her own (anonymous) take on what was going to happen... and no one believed her or paid any attention to her.
So, heck, Christine could actually BE J. K. Rowling having fun making some bets before book 7 comes out...
If that were the case, she could actually afford to pay us if she were somehow wrong!
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Yes, Shanna, it does refer to something coming up in book seven according to the information she has given out that Mugglenet has compiled.
Carrie, it could be Filch, really it could, and that leaves it pretty much 50/50. I'm saying it couldn't be Dudley and probably won't be Vernon. And that it won't be Percy or someone simple like that who just does nothing in the books.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon:
quote:Originally posted by plaid: I remember reading J. K. Rowling in an interview saying that she'd been to a Harry Potter fansite and posted her own (anonymous) take on what was going to happen... and no one believed her or paid any attention to her.
So, heck, Christine could actually BE J. K. Rowling having fun making some bets before book 7 comes out...
If that were the case, she could actually afford to pay us if she were somehow wrong!
Oh no! You got me! LOL
I don't believe that even JK Rowling has a TRILLION dollars. Last I heard, she was a poor, struggling billionaire.
I have been told (by my husband) that he is only supporting my writing career because he expects me to become as rich as JK Rowling. He's given me one year from publication...which was last October. No pressure or anything! Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote:Originally posted by Carrie:
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:"Based on Rowling saying that one character who has never done magic will do some in an extreme circumstance late in life"
Could Rowling be saying "A character who has never done magic in the books will do....etc."
That allows for even Percy Wesley to fit the bill, unless there is an instance of him performing magic that I cannot recall, obviously he does use magic, just saying there is no instance of it happening.
I wonder if there are other wizards and witches who simply have not been recorded to have performed magic.
JKR has said, "There is a character who does manage, in desperate circumstances, to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare..."
Just had time to check the exact wording, this means it's someone who has never done magic before, and someone who is quite late in life, not just later than normal magic age.
Forgive me if I missed this debate, but why can't this "late in life" character be Filch? We've seen him trying to learn magic with that QuikSpell packet - if Mrs. Norris really died or if the Death Munchers stole his manacles, I can see him snapping and letting a few sparks fly.
Guys, didn't this theory come out before book six came out? The person who manages to do magic later in life is Meriope. It's already happened.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
It might have come out then and might actually refer to that, but it is still listed on mugglenet as current for book seven. While I don't take mugglenet as 100% always true, I don't think they would have it on the book seven plot list if it actually reffered to the sixth book.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I would like to quote something and ask you guys what you think. This is an excerpt from an interview with JKR by mugglenet shortly after the release of Book 6:
quote:MA: Okay, big, big, big Book 6 question. Is Snape evil?
JKR: [Almost laughing] Well, you've read the book, what do you think?
ES: She's trying to make you say it categorically.
MA: Well, there are conspiracy theorists, and there are people who will claim -
JKR: Cling to some desperate hope [laughter] -
ES: Yes!
MA: Yes!
ES: Like certain shippers we know!
[All laugh]
JKR: Well, okay, I'm obviously - Harry-Snape is now as personal, if not more so, than Harry-Voldemort. I can't answer that question because it's a spoiler, isn't it? Whatever I say, and obviously it has such a huge impact on what will happen when they meet again that I can't. And let's face it, it's going to launch 10,000 theories, and I'm going to get a big kick out of reading them so [laughs] I'm evil but I just like the theories. I love the theories.
Anyway...it's not entirely clear, but this interview is one of many reasons that I have for thinking Snape is evil. She didn't come right out and say it, but it's the, "Cling to some desperate hope." line that's really got me bugged. Now, I'm going to try to be open-minded about this because, as I said, it wasn't clear. I'm wondering what else you think she might have meant by this, especially from those of you in the "Snape is still good" camp. Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
Ohhhhh, Christine, she's playing you like a fiddle.
P.S. Who on earth is Meriope? I've plainly lost my mind!
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
SHe's also been hinting since the beginning that she's going to kill off Harry. I think she just likes to make sure she doesn't give anything away.
I'm still in the Snape is not evil category. OSC just wrote an essay supporting the 'good Snape' theory for a book of essays about Snape that's coming out. I think it's called The Great Snape Debate. I can't' wait to read it all. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fyfe: Ohhhhh, Christine, she's playing you like a fiddle.
P.S. Who on earth is Meriope? I've plainly lost my mind!
Voldemort's mom.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
Oh HER! Oh YEAH!
Well, I have no brains inside of my head, but still! JK Rowling is still playing you like a fiddle! Snape is good! I swear!
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Well, I wouldn't go that far! I have plenty of reasons from the books alone to suppose that Snape has truly converted. Reasons, I think, that require far less explanation than the other side. Still, I felt that this supported my original ideas.
I was very disappointed when OSC came out with his "Snape is a good guy" theory. I so rarely disagree with him about popular culture. Actually, it's down to this and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wait a minute, Christine, you seem to be completely ignoring the part where JKR explicitly states she's not going to say anything that will spoil the question...so why do you cling to the idea that she's contradicting herself?
Just because a hope is desperate doesn't mean it's false.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I know OSC is writing a book on Snape, but you mention he has already written an essay on it that you have read? Where is that essay? I can't find it.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Oh gosh, it was a while back, just after the book came out. I *think* it was one of the essays he posts on his site regularly. It would probably take me forever to find it. I'll see if I can find some time later on.
Posted by -Xan- (Member # 10091) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I was very disappointed when OSC came out with his "Snape is a good guy" theory. I so rarely disagree with him about popular culture. Actually, it's down to this and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy...
I was just wondering where he talked about Snape being a good guy, and hitchhikers guide for that matter. I Am utterly hopeless, i couldn't even find anything about Harry Potter
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
All right, you guys made me go look and it turned out to be easier to find than I thought. I put "Snape" in the search blank up at the top and got the article on the firs go:
Is this the essay you are talking about, Christine? I do remember reading this one, now. I was thinking it was a more recent essay.
I also forgot that OSC also believes (or at least used to believe) that Dumbledore will actually come back somehow. Since JKR already said he will not be coming back, I think it's safe to say that OSC is wrong, unless JKR wants to mislead us so much that she would blatantly lie. I doubt that.
Edit* Looks like you beat me to it. Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
So, what JKR actually said is not that Snape is evil, but that she herself is evil. In other words, expect anything in the last book. Remember, ever since book 3, her novels have been getting "darker" and "darker," in the eyes of virtually all critics. How dark is JKR going to go? Maybe the British Prime minister will have MI6 locate Hogsmead, Hogwartz, and Diagon Alley, and then he will nuke the whole Wizarding World--at least in the British Isles.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
HAHAHAHAH!! Just the thought of MI6 getting involved makes me laugh like crazy. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I actually wouldn't be surprised if there were some more Muggle involvement in the last book. They're certainly mentioned a bit more lately.
Posted by Me, Myself, and I (Member # 10003) on :
Who here has heard anything from JK Rowling regarding how much her ideas have progressed since she wrote the first Harry Potter. There seems to be a lot of continuity from her first to last book, which required foreknowledge of how everything would take place.
Or has she pulled off a George Lucas, only with more skill, in that she has come up with major plot additions or changes along the way, while keeping the plot smooth and relatively contradiction-free. (or maybe completely contradiction-free, I'm not sure)?
For instance, did she originally plan to make these books get progressively darker and more adult, or was that an early decision-change due to the fact that her books were appealing to adults just as much as kids?
Or was Snape originally supposed to become this controversial character, or were her original plans to just keep him as the grouchy DADA teacher?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I actually wouldn't be surprised if there were some more Muggle involvement in the last book. They're certainly mentioned a bit more lately.
True Story, the first chapter of book 6 I seriously doubt is the end of the matter.
I expect this conflict to reach quite far out into the muggle world, obviously it won't envelope everything but I expect alot of devastation on the muggle side.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
Me, Myself, and I, (we need to give you a nickname, such as MMI or something--just too much to type),
I think, barring minor changes along the way, that the major plot points were decided by the author when she first started. Of course, she didn't know how well her books would sell at first, so she wrote them in a way that would let each book stand on its own, in case no more were written. Yes, there have been changes along the way, I think, but the important stuff probably hasn't, for the most part.
I think she always knew Dumbledore would die, and that Snape would be where he is now. I think she has said she has extensive histories of each character, which would support her foreknowledge.
But I can't say officially, I don't keep up with the interviews she gives.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
She said she was killing two people she hadn't originally planned to kill, and keeping one alive. I'm not sure if that means she didn't plan to kill them when she started writing book one, or when she started writing book seven (and they just had to die as she was writing it out).
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
De lurking.... I have been reading this thread with delight. Can’t wait to find out who is right.
I have to fall on the Snape is good side. I never bought his explanations to Bellatrix about how he never left the dark lord's service in HBP. I don't think she did either which is why he had to make the unbreakable vow. He's had way too many opportunities to kill Harry and Dumbledore. Plus J.K. will have to come up with a really good reason why Snape didn't kill Harry eliminating both of his dark lord’s most powerful enemies at the end of the book.
I am forced to go with what I think is the most obvious scenario: Dumbledore knew he was dieing from the potion and/or the injury to his hand and he also knew about Snape’s unbreakable vow so he arranged his own end to put Snape in a position to do the most damage.
Don’t get me wrong Snape is not a nice person, but that is what makes him so interesting, a person doing the right thing in spite of his truly rotten personality.
With all of Rowling’s emphasis on the power Voldemort doesn’t have, and having set Harry up as the self sacrificing type it may mean Harry will have to die. “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” I hope not… I would like to see a happy ending. There has already been enough sadness in the series. I am not sure how else Harry can use love to defeat Voldemort other than to sacrifice himself like his mother did. This time it will be after all the horcrux are destroyed so Voldemort will be destroyed. My take on the prophecy is that it doesn’t guarantee that one will survive, it just says neither can live while the other is alive and at least one must die by the hand of the other.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Well, all I have to say is that Rowling will have to make murder ok if Snape is really "good" (as if things are ever black and white...a point she has tried to make in all her books). I still don't buy Dumbledore asking Snape to do it and even if he did, I still don't think it's all right to murder someone in cold blood. Then again, I do not believe that the ends usually justify the means. If Rowling takes this path, she will have her work cut out for her to convince mt that it's all right. To me, this matter goes beyond the specifics of what happens in the next book. You guys could be right -- Snape could be good. I'd say the odds are at least 50/50. I am honestly worried that after all I've put into the series, after how much I've liked it thus far, I may not be able to accept the ending.
I would have to agree that the explanation to Belatrix was weak and unbelievable. I do not believe that Snape never left Voldemort's employ. I am reasonably sure that when Dumbledore first trsuted Snape, it was right to do so (whatever that reason was).
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:If it comes as any consolation, I think that there will be plenty to continue arguing and speculating about, even after 'Deathly Hallows' comes out. So if you're not yet ready to quit the message boards, do not despair
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Thanks for that, Midnight. I think they are absolutely right! Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
I just checked her website, and CNN is just quoting directly from there.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Keep in mind, JKR has said that there's something we don't know about Lily that will be important. So we're probably missing the one bit of information that will tie everything together.
Does it seem odd to anyone else that we know almost everything about James, his personality, his friends, his school exploits. But we know next to nothing about Lily?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If Harry Potter was Harriet Potter, I bet we'd know a lot more about Lily.
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
I reread the end of HBP last night and after some thought I have a new theory on Snape. I think Dumbledore sent him back to Vold to be a spy, but L.V. would have been most suspicious, not telling him anything important, but allows him to stay around to find out what he is up to. So Snape is bluffing when he says he knows about Draco’s assignment. He is trying to find out what it is and is then backed into a corner where he has to make the unbreakable vow not even knowing what the assignment is. Snape is not above taking some chances and breaking some of the rules so makes the vow to gain the death eater’s trust.
Then as the year goes on he would have surely figured out the assignment was to kill someone. Harry would have been the most likely candidate, which given Snape’s genuine dislike of Harry he may not have had that much of a problem with. Especially not knowing the entire prophecy and believing Dumbledore could protect him. He wouldn’t have thought the target could have been Dumbledore since no one would have believed Draco could have gotten anywhere close to pulling it off.
Then when Snape gets to the roof, he figures out who the actual target was but having made the unbreakable vow he has no choice but to kill the one person who really trusted him. He then has no choice but to join the Death Eater in earnest, no one else will have him. How interesting would it be to see how Snape deals with this particular hell. Knowing it was his mistake that forced him to kill the one man he looked up to. Will he seek his revenge upon Voldemort in an attempt to atone for his sins and regain some shred of dignity? Or will he feel all hope is lost and join what he feels is the winning side?
Rowling said we will still be debating this after the last book so I doubt it will be a clear cut answer. Just like in real life we may never truly know all of some of the characters motivations.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
SC -- You're going to make me reread the sixth book, aren't you? I was just about to say that of course Snape knew the mission, but now I'm second guessing. I do have to say that your theory is MUCH closer to what I think than anything else -- especially the "Dumbledore asked Snape to to it" and "Snape is still good" stuff. I'm absolutely positive that one way or another, the question of Snape's loyalty is far more complicated than good or evil. I'm sure he has switched sides at least once in his life (from Voldemort to Dumbledore). I'm sure he was good for a while and I don't know exactly what made him decide to go back.
Oh well, I was probably going to reread all the books before #7 came out, anyway. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Looks like we'll be seeing OSC's official theory on the subject soon. In the latest review column he mentions that he's going to have an essay in a forthcoming book called The Great Snape Debate.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I was just about to say that of course Snape knew the mission, but now I'm second guessing.
I've always thought that it's crystal-clear that Snape did not know Malfoy's mission until after he agreed to it.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I was just about to say that of course Snape knew the mission, but now I'm second guessing.
I've always thought that it's crystal-clear that Snape did not know Malfoy's mission until after he agreed to it.
Why? The only time we overhear Snape and Malfoy talking about it, Snape doesn't ask what his mission is, only what he is trying to do so he can help him. It always sounded to me as if Snape were asking what his specific plan was, not who his target was. Also, Dumbledore knew all alone. And, for that matter, so did I. It was never a question -- not even the first time I read the book. That, of course, could have clouded my reading of it but I don't think so. I would say at the least that it is not "crystal clear" that Snape knew or didn't know. Perhaps you can cite me a reference that suggests otherwise?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Also, Dumbledore knew all alone.
Actually, I don't think Dumbledore knew all along. I think Snape told Dumbledore once he found out, and Dumbledore refused to do anything about it because it would kill Snape. Which is what Snape and Dumbledore were arguing about.
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
Snape tells Mrs. Malfoy and Bellatrix he knows what the mission is, but he never actually says anything about it. Later when he confronts Draco he is supposed to already know what the mission is, to indicate otherwise would be to admit he was lying before.
As far as Dumbledore knowing, He says he knew at the end of the book, but it could have been something he figured out after the cursed necklace and poison wine showed up. Who Draco's target was may have been what he and Snape were arguing about when Hagrid over heard them?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I'm with Tom on this one. I thought it was clear that Snape bluffed his way into the unbreakable vow and then was rather perlexed when he realized what he had vowed to do. My theory is that the Snape/Dumbledore argument was Dumbledore telling Snape to do what he had to do...or, in other words, fulfil his unbreakable vow if it came down to it. So Dumbledore didn't ask Snape, but he was willing to take the fall to keep Snape's cover.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Like I said, it does seem plausible that Snape didn't know...my only point was that the book does not say one way or another. It is hardly "perfectly clear" because it is not explicit anywhere in the text. The truth is that we still know very little about Snape, especially considering what an important character he has been throughout the series. We don't know who he has lied to and when -- although he must have been lying to someone at some point. I look forward to having a lot of this cleared up in the seventh book. In the meantime, I really wish people would quit telling me what is and is not "perfectly clear" -- especially when discussing things that require reading between the lines. (And if this doesn't require reading between the lines -- if there is something explicit -- then find a book and quote it to me.)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I really wish people would quit telling me what is and is not "perfectly clear"
Tom told you what he thought, not that it actually is crystal clear:
quote:I've always thought that it's crystal-clear that Snape did not know Malfoy's mission until after he agreed to it.
In fact, this echoes your own language from some of your first posts on the topic:
quote:I've always been very clear on things at the end of her books.
quote:I've read that scene ten times and believe it or not, it's what sealed it for me too...that Snape is definitely evil!
Your complaint about Tom's use of "crystal-clear" is misplaced here.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I think you missed the point of my gripe. I am quite interested in other people's opinions here (or I wouldn't read this thread) but I take exception to people saying (without references) that they think something is clear when it is not explicit at all in the text.
As for those quotes of mine...you took both completely out of context. In the first, I was talking about the fact that she has always completed a story arc by the end of each book and left nothing of the main mystery of each book in doubt. In the second, I was saying that a scene that had convinced someone else that Snape was good made me think the opposite...it "sealed it FOR ME" that Snape was evil. Neither one of these were what I like to call "shut out" arguments. When you say, "Well, I thought it was perfectly clear..." it's a shut out. Without offering evidence, you are trying to make the other person feel inferior and end the debate.
[Edit: I just want to add that I don't believe any of the posters (especially Tom, who actually seems very nice most of the time) tried to use a shut out argument on purpose. I'm not even sure if this is the proper terminology. I should go get my old philosophy textbook back out and look up the section on rhetoric because there is a specific name for it. ]
If we can, I'd really prefer to put this thread back on topic. I would particularly like to hear why it is so "clear" that Snape didn't know Malfoy's mission. I have now asked for specifics three times, apparently not very nicely!
[ February 07, 2007, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:As for those quotes of mine...you took both completely out of context.
No, I was pointing out that you used identical language in a way that did not shut down arguments, and that Tom's use of similar language likewise did not shut down arguments.
In other words, I absolutely depended on using the proper context in making my point - which was that you took Tom out of context in your gripe by not referencing his opening phrase, "I've always thought..."
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Christine, I don't have the book near, so I can't quote you anything. And really, all I can say is that I had a gut feeling during the whole 'unbreakable vow' scene that Snape was bluffing. I know that's not concrete at all and I'm excited to find out if I'm wrong. Someone else had the same gut feeling when she wrote the Harry Potter 6 Parody. She parodied that scene as follows:
BELLATRIX laser-zaps a fox, just to be evil, then continues chasing NARCISSA MALFOY down the street, the two of them keeping up a steady stream of "Should so!", "Should not!", "Should so!", "Should not!", while READERS wonder what the hell they are thinking of doing or not doing. They knock on a door. SNAPE opens it. BELLATRIX: Trick or treat! SNAPE: I hate you both. Come in. NARCISSA: I have a favor to ask. BELLATRIX: But since we're here, Snape, tell us how come you've managed not to kill Harry Potter, or find out anything useful about Dumbledore, or really do anything evil except sneer at everybody for the last five years. Are you truly Dark, or are you just an outgrown Goth kid? SNAPE: Me and the Dark Lord, we're like *this*. (doing the two-fingers-close-together thing) That's all you need to know. So, your favor, Narcissa? NARCISSA: My poor, sweet, innocent son Draco needs help completing The Plan. Do you know about The Plan? SNAPE: Of course I know about The Plan. READERS: You could fill us in on The Plan. NARCISSA: Promise me you'll help. SNAPE: Okay. BELLATRIX: I dare you to make the Unbreakable Vow over it. SNAPE: Fine. BELLATRIX sets an Unbreakable Vow around their wrists while SNAPE vows to carry out The Plan if DRACO fails. READERS: Hm. Well, I'm sure he'll find a way to wriggle out of that.
I'm mostly including that because it's hilarious, but it perfectly illustrates why I feel like Snape was bluffing. The whole conversation was very ambiguous, which of course was Rowling's point. I just tend to lean toward the "It couldn't be the OBVIOUS because she took such pains to make it ambiguous." But, she could be playing me for a fool. Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
LOL
I needed a good laugh. Thanks for that.
I reread the scene again today, just out of curiosity. I'm still torn. I got to tell you, I was annoyed when I first read that chapter. It still is my least favorite chapter of the whole series and (confession time) I skipped over it when I reread the book. The obvious withholding of information was poorly done, IMHO. Rowling seemed to be singing, "I know something you don't know!" in the background. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Exactly. "The Plan." You should read the whole parody, it's truly hilarious.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
How could that scene be improved, though? I mean, assuming Snape didn't know the plan, but wanted to bolster his appearance of closeness with Voldemort to his rivals within the Death Eaters?
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Indeed.
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