!!!DON'T READ ALL OF THIS PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SKIM!!!
綾 闇袷綾袷虻 (random japanese )
The long hidden controversy among African-Americans publicly exploded in November when seventeen-year-old Michelle Barskile in North Carolina was turned down for her sorority's debutante ball. Several weeks later Ruth Sherman, a white elementary school teacher in New York, fled her school after heavy fire from some black parents. The issue for both women was hair. Barskile's offense was that she wore her hair in a dreadlocks style that her sorority chapter deemed unacceptable. Sherman's offense was that she read passages from the book Nappy Hair to her mostly black and Latino students. The parents claimed this demeaned blacks.
The two women discovered that few things generate more anger and passion among black women than their hair. Some black critics say that black women are in a frenzied search to shed the ancient racist shame and stigma of "nappy hair" ="bad hair" by aping white beauty standards. Others say that, like many non-black women, black women are hopeless captives of America's fashion and beauty industry, which is geared to making them more attractive and pleasing to men. Many black women counter this by saying that they are merely seeking their own identify or "to look better."
"Get gorgeous! Steal the spotlight with this glamorous upswept design."
They are all right. But the great hair obsession among many black women reflects the still deep and compelling need by African-Americans to identify with and accept America's values and standards. The beauty care industry has skillfully fed that compulsion with fantasies of physical glitter and social glamour and turned them into mammoth profits. Hair care product manufacturers have sold many black women on the notion that their hair is the path to self-esteem, success, and sexual allure. A century ago the legendary Madame CJ Walker built a multi-million dollar empire on the premise that black women want to look like white women and that "good hair" is the key to independence and prosperity.
"Elegance, spiced with Southern flavor begins with a mane awash in a light golden blond shade."
The hair care industry is gargantuan today. In 1996 beauty care manufacturers racked up more than $10 billion in sales, and hair care products by far topped the sales list. Americans shelled out $1.5 billion for shampoos, and more than $1 billion for hair conditioners alone. Blacks bought an estimated one out of five toilet and cosmetic products sold, and one out of three hair products sold.
The dozen or more black magazines devoted exclusively to hair dwarf that of the number of general interest black publications. The hair magazines are so wildly popular that many librarians are forced to put them under lock and key to prevent them from being pilfered by patrons. The five giant hair product manufacturers, Proctor & Gamble, Helene Curtis, Alberto-Culver, Bristol Meyers, and Johnson & Johnson dominate the hair care industry and are household names among black women.
"A perfect evening entrance begins with a flawless hair design."
The Afro or natural hair look of the 1960's and the braid craze of the 1990's are touted as examples of black women rejecting white beauty standards. They aren't. The Afro style was short lived, always more a chic fad than a revolution in black consciousness, and was tied to style and fashion trends. Today's braided look is even more tightly tied to style and fashion trends with none of the pretensions of the black pride of the 1960's. Even many black women who sport the bald look are fixated on matching the proper clothes, make-up and ear rings with the style. Most soon tire of these hair fads and retreat back to the straightening comb, fashion braids/extensions or a perm.
The great hair obsession is driven by the painful need of many African-Americans to conform to the dominant values of American society. And beauty, fashion and hairstyles are the most popular and perverse expressions of those values. Barskile and Sherman learned the bitter truth that many African-Americans still believe the fiction that good hair makes you, and nappy hair doesn't.
Dr. Earl Ofari Hutchinson is the author of "The Crisis in Black and Black"
This thread is not limited to black people
quote:WHAT DO YOU THINK OF SALONS CHARGING BLACK WOMEN MORE MONEY TO GET THEIR HAIR DONE?
I think it's rediculous and racist if we can do european type hair with no problem then they should be able to do theirs! African hair is good hair.
----
Now I know alot of people probably don't care about his subject much but i'll tell you the truth it affects millions of non-white people especially women every day. So what I want you to do is talk, rant, or debate about any experience you have had with intra-racial discrimination. (no matter who you are please post)
Fair = Lovely
I have a friend who passed four months and India, and this is very clear to her: most Indians (at least Mumbaikers) are obsessed with skin color. Without further ado, ten observations on skin color in India:
1. A fair-skinned person is considered attractive regardless of whether that person has a symmetrical face or a healthy figure. She noticed that certain people who would not be considered attractive in the United States are considered beautiful there because of their light skin. The flipside is that some who are considered unattractive because of darker skin would be considered attractive in countries outside of India. The equation is simple: in India, light skin equals beauty.
2. In India, you can insult a person by calling her "dark." My friend heard these absurd insults several times. For example, an acquaintance was trying to insult another woman by saying, "She's really dark. You know, really dark. She hides it with her creams and she keeps herself light but she is actually really dark." Good one! Zing! You got her good!
3. She asked Indians to tell me which Hollywood actors and actresses they consider most attractive. Instead of choosing thespians with brown complexions similar to most South Asians' complexions (e.g. Denzil Washington, Halle Berry, Salma Hayek, et al.), they invariably choose light-skinned actors like Brad Pitt, Angelina Jolie, and Tom Cruise.
4. If one looks at the Bombay Times, Bollywood films, or Indian models, he will notice that the paragon of beauty is that of a light-skinned person with aquiline features. Indian movie stars do not resemble the men and women on the streets of Bombay or other Indian cities. India's movie stars look like light-skinned Iranians, Turks, or Spaniards who speak Hindi.
How many Indians have complexions like Preity Zinta or Hrithik Roshan? How many Indians have green eyes like Aishwarya Rai? Probably less than 0.5% of Indians.
5. The most common quip against Sonia Gandhi is that she is "foreign born and Italian." Yet Indians never criticize the fact that several Bollywood stars are foreign-born or half-Indian, half-white. For example, Yana Gupta, dancer in several Bollywood movies and model for Lakme Cosmetics, is from the Czech Republic. John Abraham, star of Dhoom, is half Iranian and half Malayali. And Katerina Kaif, featured in Sarkar, was born and raised in England and is half British, half Indian.
My point is not to imply that the aforementioned actors are unattractive (I think they are all attractive). My point is that these people are far lighter than the vast majority of Indians, and this says a lot about Indian standards of beauty.
6. Unilever, through its Indian affiliate Hindustan Lever, produces a "power brand" called "Fair and Lovely." Fair and Lovely, according to Unilever Malaysia (this product is sold not only in India but in 38 countries around the globe) is meant to, "unlock the secret of glowing fair skin... [and] unveil your natural radiant fairness in just 6 weeks." (See link). According to a 2003 article in Women's eNews, India's "fairness industry" accounts for 60% of skincare sales and brings in USD $140 million annually.
7. Many Indians go to great lengths to avoid getting tanned and to maintain the lightest skin color possible. They consciously avoid the sun because too much sun can ruin a "fair and lovely" face.
8. On shaadi.com, a website meant for Indians looking arranged marriages, members are supposed to describe their complexion. The choices (from lightest to darkest) range from, "Very Fair–Fair–Wheatish–Wheatish Medium–Wheatish Brown–Dark."
I could not find a single person, man or woman, who described his or herself as "dark." I found people who were very dark-skinned who described themselves as "wheatish brown" or "wheatish medium." (In case you were wondering, "wheatish" is an Indian term that means, well, "like the color of wheat.")
I challenge you to find someone who describes his or herself as "Dark."
9. White foreigners are treated better than African foreigners. My friend has a cousin who participated in a program run by AIESEC India. AIESEC runs an internship exchange program, sending Indians abroad and sending non-Indians here. Her cousin told me that the interns come from all over the world, including Europe and Africa. She spoke with both the European and African students and the two groups reported completely different experiences. The African students said that they felt that they were discriminated against, while the Europeans reported that Indians fawned over them.
10. In India (like much of Latin America), light skin seems to confer a sense of entitlement. Because many Indians fawn over those with less melanin, lighter skinned people learn that it is normal to be stared at and to be deferred to.
[ February 02, 2007, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Altáriël of Dorthonion ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
You know, this might get more play if you'll tone down the title. I almost didn't click here because your all caps title screaming at me iritated me.
Just a though.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Are you going to fight The Man by getting an afro or corn rows, Altariel?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
That bothers me a great deal (being black and all) and stuff like Asians getting surgery on their eyes to make them look round.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Although I am not black, I do have very very, rediculously curly hair that hairdressers charge me lots more to work with, especially since it's almost waist-length. I'm fighting the man in my own special way.
EDIT: An updo for prom last year was almost 60 dollars...at beauty school(thank God those girls did a good job!)...That's the cheapest place. A standard salon fee for the same thing would've probably gone way higher between 80's and 90's. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
On a more serious note that I"m sure will fall on deaf ears, I think there's plenty of cultural overlap that has nothing to do with racism, at least in America. White people ape 'black' fashions and buy black music like mad. Black people, I guess, do the same thing to some degree.
Tons of white people adopted some Indian religious practices over the last few decades, eat Indian food, and watch Bollywood movies. As mentioned in another thread, I'd love to date Indian girls, but because I'm not Indian, I don't think they'd give me the time of day. I, personally, find brown girls of whatever ethnicity very attractive. Though, of course, I guess this means I hate white girls or have some kind of weird fetish, eh?
Tons of Americans love Japanese manga and anime, and various other aspects of Japanese and Oriental culture, and emulate those things.
Sometimes cultures just 'ape' each other. Doing so doesn't mean some kind of shame or repressed feelings towards their own culture, though, of course, that doesn't seem to stop the proto-Marxists of the world from promoting that idea.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't know about India, but I have noticed that the black women seen in magazines so often become blonde. Beyonce's hair color isn't much different from mine.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Although I am not black, I do have very very, rediculously curly hair that hairdressers charge me lots more to work with, especially since it's almost waist-length. I'm fighting the man in my own special way. [Smile]
EDIT: An updo for prom last year was almost 60 dollars...at beauty school(thank God those girls did a good job!)...That's the cheapest place. A standard salon fee for the same thing would've probably gone way higher between 80's and 90's. [Eek!]
So, you're fighting the man by smothering him with money? Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I don't know about India, but I have noticed that the black women seen in magazines so often become blonde. Beyonce's hair color isn't much different from mine.
Shakira, although she is not black, dyed her hair blonde as a way to better advertise herself. Thalia, who is also a Latin American and Tomy Motola's wife, remained a brunette and so far has only been less than mildly successful.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
quote: Although I am not black, I do have very very, rediculously curly hair that hairdressers charge me lots more to work with, especially since it's almost waist-length. I'm fighting the man in my own special way. [Smile]
EDIT: An updo for prom last year was almost 60 dollars...at beauty school(thank God those girls did a good job!)...That's the cheapest place. A standard salon fee for the same thing would've probably gone way higher between 80's and 90's. [Eek!]
So, you're fighting the man by smothering him with money?
Oh no, I only get my hair(or anything) done for special occasions. Usually I just tie my hair in a messy bun that has curly hairstrands popping out of it.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:
quote:WHAT DO YOU THINK OF SALONS CHARGING BLACK WOMEN MORE MONEY TO GET THEIR HAIR DONE?
I think it's rediculous and racist if we can do european type hair with no problem then they should be able to do theirs! African hair is good hair.
If it takes more time or skill to do certain types of hair, it seems reasonable to charge more.
In much the same way, since it is more expensive to insure a teenage male than almost any other demographic, it is reasonable to charge more for their insurance.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Being blonde is not exactly perfect either. A lot of people, on first meeting me, talk to me veeerry sloooowwwwly as if I'm some kind of fool. They often express surprise when I turn out not to be some kind of idiot - saying things like 'Hey! You're really clever and articulate, for a blonde woman'.
This doesn't have much to do with your point, but I just wanted to say - Yeah, racial profiling, in whatever sense, sucks.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
quote:WHAT DO YOU THINK OF SALONS CHARGING BLACK WOMEN MORE MONEY TO GET THEIR HAIR DONE?
I think it's rediculous and racist if we can do european type hair with no problem then they should be able to do theirs! African hair is good hair.
If it takes more time or skill to do certain types of hair, it seems reasonable to charge more.
In much the same way, since it is more expensive to insure a teenage male than almost any other demographic, it is reasonable to charge more for their insurance.
I understand, but the bottom line is that they are charging you more for the way you were born. Insurance policies are also unfair. Why is it more expensive to ensure a male teen?
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: Being blonde is not exactly perfect either. A lot of people, on first meeting me, talk to me veeerry sloooowwwwly as if I'm some kind of fool. They often express surprise when I turn out not to be some kind of idiot - saying things like 'Hey! You're really clever and articulate, for a blonde woman'.
This doesn't have much to do with your point, but I just wanted to say - Yeah, racial profiling, in whatever sense, sucks.
Personally, I've never seen anyone do that to a blonde woman although I am aware that it happens. Usually all the blonde women I meet are pretty smart.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I understand, but the bottom line is that they are charging you more for the way you were born. Insurance policies are also unfair. Why is it more expensive to ensure a male teen?
No, they are charging you more because it costs them more. Somebody has to eat that extra cost. I don't blame them for not wanting to.
I am a fairly tall (6'3") guy. When I lived in Brazil, I was a giant. I had to pay extra for my shoes, because they were a non-standard size that you couldn't get in normal stores. It wasn't my fault that my feet are too big, but it wasn't their fault either.
Male teens cost more to insure because they have more accidents than anybody else.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
quote:I understand, but the bottom line is that they are charging you more for the way you were born. Insurance policies are also unfair. Why is it more expensive to ensure a male teen?
Because the research shows that male teens are statistically more likely to get into accidents than other demographic groups. They cost more to insure because they (as a group) require that insurance more often.
For the same reason, it generally costs more for women to get a haircut than it does men. Men usually have less hair, and simpler styles, so it's easier and cheaper to cut.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: Being blonde is not exactly perfect either. A lot of people, on first meeting me, talk to me veeerry sloooowwwwly as if I'm some kind of fool. They often express surprise when I turn out not to be some kind of idiot - saying things like 'Hey! You're really clever and articulate, for a blonde woman'.
This doesn't have much to do with your point, but I just wanted to say - Yeah, racial profiling, in whatever sense, sucks.
I wonder if this is influenced in any way by the fact that, if I may pull out my guesstimator, most of the blonds out there chose to become blonde.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Thalia, who is also a Latin American and Tomy Motola's wife, remained a brunette and so far doesn't have to be successful.
There. Fixed that for you.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Don't many black women's hairdos require a chemical relaxer, and wouldn't that relaxer treatment add to the cost of the do?
By the way, my stylist says that chemical relaxers do serious damage to women's hair.
I saw some cool do's down in South Georgia last year. The black women working in the factory had formed their hair into curly ribbons, some ribbons up to 3-inches wide, all piled up on their heads like birthday presents, with sparkles and colors and little golden do-dads.
The do's looked really stiff, like they used superglue or something to form the ribbons. It didn't look washable. I'd bet they're getting their hair done at least once a week and washing it then. Some of those do's look like they cost $100. And we're talking about factory workers.
And then there were the manicures...
I guess all that money spent on looking good was well-spent, because I did notice.
Cosmetics for black women and for Asian women have come a long way in the last 15 or so years. They've finally come up with natural-looking foundation colors and lipsticks to go with the foundation. I think that's the real problem with women not liking their skin color. Most people have blotchy skin, and finding a good foundation to make the complexion appear smooth hasn't always been easy. Invariably dark-skinned women have had to settle for foundation designed for fair-skinned women.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:Thalia, who is also a Latin American and Tomy Motola's wife, remained a brunette and so far doesn't have to be successful.
There. Fixed that for you.
Thanks. I wasn't too keen on spelling because I've only heard his name pronounced out loud, not written.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Um, you might want to go back and double check that fix, including what's in itallics.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Um, you might want to go back and double check that fix, including what's in itallics.
Oh, I didn't get that part. I was only using her as an example, but I watch Mexican TV quite often and I saw an interview on her once when she mentioned how successful she wanted to be and all that. I did forget to mention that she has a line of clothes and candies though.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: Being blonde is not exactly perfect either. A lot of people, on first meeting me, talk to me veeerry sloooowwwwly as if I'm some kind of fool.
Ok, FINALLY we can get back to real debate.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Oh, Lemmy, you're so sweet! But the mall's so big! And I fall down and get lost so much! Won't you come along and protect me? *giggles*
Regularly scheduled debate may now continue.
Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bella Bee: They often express surprise when I turn out not to be some kind of idiot - saying things like 'Hey! You're really clever and articulate, for a blonde woman'.
This reminds me of a good friend of mine. My friend is a brilliant photographer and all around intellectual woman from Poland. Her English is often better than some native speakers I know. She has had numerous people be taken completely by surprise because she is an articulate and intelligent Polish woman. I mean like half way through a conversation someone will say, "Wow. You're smart. You're from Poland, right?"
So yeah. People can be idiots.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: If it takes more time or skill to do certain types of hair, it seems reasonable to charge more.
In much the same way, since it is more expensive to insure a teenage male than almost any other demographic, it is reasonable to charge more for their insurance.
I understand, but the bottom line is that they are charging you more for the way you were born. Insurance policies are also unfair. Why is it more expensive to ensure a male teen?
It's unfair that I have to pay for eyeglasses when some people are born with good eyes. Why should I have to pay for what they were lucky enough to be born with: good vision.
Obviously, that's dumb. Life is unfair. We're all different, and some of us have it easier in some ways and harder in others. Why should a hairdresser be forced to value her time differently for someone with more difficult hair? Is it her fault that a person with more difficult hair decided to walk in the door?
No one is "owed" hair care. I mean, good God! It was bad enough when FDR declared a "right" to recreation, but now we're talking about haircare as a basic right?
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
Lisa, that was one of his "Four Freedoms"
1. Freedom of speech and expression 2. Freedom from bad hair days 3. Freedom from want 4. Freedom from fear
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
My hair is falling out! I'd pay thousands of dollars if it meant I could keep it! You should feel privileged that you have the option of hair care.
Soon, the only haircare I am going to need is to shave the hair on the back of my bald head so that my bowling ball is uniform in appearance.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: Fair = Lovely
See, that really doesn't measure up to my own experiences. I never hear the word "fair", I hear the word "pale". Why do people pay tons to tan? Maybe it's regional, but around here I think that Exotic = Lovely. I see the medium colors in between fair and very dark being admired.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
My father has been told he speaks English well for a Cuban.
Frankly, he speaks English well for an American. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
The pressure for girls to be white or fair skinned in many parts of Asia is often more strong then the efforts of American people to get tan.
It dates back to feudal periods where if you were dark skinned it was because you were a field hand and therefore must be of a more humble background. If your skin was white or fair it indicated that you spent your time indoors out of the sun, and that your family must be wealthy to afford that lifestyle for you. You can see an extreme of this principle in how within Chinese and Japanese opera as well as Japanese Geisha that they wear pure white makeup on their faces and neck. Extreme more in the sense of color tone, not in the sense of they dedication to the principle.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Icarus, I'm having trouble understanding what's offensive about saying that, for a non-native speaker, your father speaks English very well. Would you mind explaining?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Wait,it's not because of the American Media crushing their wills?
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer:
quote: Fair = Lovely
See, that really doesn't measure up to my own experiences. I never hear the word "fair", I hear the word "pale". Why do people pay tons to tan? Maybe it's regional, but around here I think that Exotic = Lovely. I see the medium colors in between fair and very dark being admired.
I do think it depends on where you are, because people want to look different enough to be noticeable while conforming to certain norms. IIRC, there was a recent study that explained the desire to tan in those terms, among other things. "Fair" is a bit of an old descriptor, I think. But when you talk about, say, childhood fairy tales, the "fair maiden" is an almost mythic ideal.
--j_k, who realized he misspelled "descriptor"
[ February 02, 2007, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Wait,it's not because of the American Media crushing their wills?
Nope, believe it or not, some of their problems are entirely of their own making.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Alt, are all of those real ads (in your link)?
--j_k
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
Being fair=being a field hand isn't an indian thing. Europe was the same way, because being pale meant you were rich enough to sit around inside all day. It was only in the last century or so that being tan became really cool in the US--the same time that being tan meant you were rich enough to sit around a pool all day.
The thing is, beauty is the unattainable, so if everyone on your block naturally has light skin, then a tan becomes a status symbol, and vice-versa.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Being fair=being a field hand isn't an indian thing.
Never said it was, or were you saying that Asia = India, because there are quite a few other countries in the continent.
Remember I said, "The pressure for girls to be white or fair skinned in many parts of Asia..." (emphasis added.) I am perfectly aware that India's emphasis on fair skin is probably a different beast. A still existent reference to it's caste system?
edit: Also I believe you are right Hank in that being tan became popular because it indicated that your could afford to go on trips to exotic locations and get tan. It started sometime around the 1950's I believe.
Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
I really didn't mean just india. More than anything, I wanted to point out that even white people used to want to be whiter (and without the help of our oppressive America Media, no less).
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Lots of white people pay money to tan and get dreds. When I was working in the dating service, a large number of people only wanted to date their own race, but a large number also only wanted to date other races. Personal attraction and ideas of beauty can be strange.
I would suggest that whatever is exotic or different gets extra attention. If a group of people are naturally pale, the tan ones get more attention. If a group of people are naturally dark, the lighter ones stand out.
Regardless of race or color, people often want to look different from those around them in order to get more attention.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Why can't we have a fashion industry that celebrates diversity. There is beauty in all types of bodies and all colors of skin and hair and yet the fashion industry seems to try to choral us into one narrow view of physical perfect. If you don't fit then you have to try to change.
What's worse, that ideal of physical perfect they keep forcing on us changes so fast it makes your head spin. One minute thin and muscular with a flat chest is in, the next minute your supposed to have soft curves and a mega busom.
The worst part is that fashions are all designed for whatever body type happens to be in style this week. If big breasts are in this week, then all the fashions in the store will be designed to highlight big breasts. If you happen to have a flat chest, your just out of luck. Your stuck with either getting plastic surgery or wearing fashions that look pathetic on you. Of course if you do decide to go with the plastic surgery, you better be prepared to redo that next year when small breast come back in fashion and all the clothes are designed to look great on the twiggy figure.
I think I've got a nice wasteline, you'd think I should be able to find clothes that would show that off but NOooo. A nice waste isn't in fashion right now so I can't find a piece of fashionable clothing anywhere that shows off my waste. Instead, all the clothing on the rack is designed to show off flat abs. Seriosly, how many women look good in something that shows there midriff?
Why can't the fashion industry embrace diversity? Why can't we have fashions for real women that have all different body types at the same time?
I am occasionally struck when I see women and men from Africa wearing African hairstyles and dress by how beautiful and noble they look. I have some Asian and Indian students who are equally strikingly beautiful.
Can't we embrace all different kinds of beauty?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:A nice waste isn't in fashion right now so I can't find a piece of fashionable clothing anywhere that shows off my waste.
I know I'm going to regret asking, but... just what is it you're wasting?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer:
quote: Fair = Lovely
See, that really doesn't measure up to my own experiences. I never hear the word "fair", I hear the word "pale". Why do people pay tons to tan? Maybe it's regional, but around here I think that Exotic = Lovely. I see the medium colors in between fair and very dark being admired.
It is regional. Here, Fair & Lovely is a brand name, and the majority of skin care products on the market say something like "For Fair and Lovely Skin". It's a huge huge huge market here to the point that I have an incredibly difficult time finding skincare products that don't say that. I don't know what these products contain, but if they contain bleach, I don't want them anywhere near my skin. If it's UV protection, I'm all for it, but that isn't specified, so I don't know.
Most women here walk around under umbrellas, rain or not. They're shielding their skin from the sun so they don't get tanned.
If you read through the marriage proposal ads, you'll see (besides religion and caste, yearly wage, degrees earned, property owned) mention of paleness if it's favorable. Favorable always means pale here.
Bollywood was mentioned earlier with the pale skins portrayed in Bollywood movies. It's true. Plunk the majority of these actors in Hollywood movies (names & accents aside), and most of you wouldn't be able to tell that they were Indian. They're that pale.
While most have black hair, that's not exclusive - a good number have brown or red. Blue, green, and violet eyes occur far more frequently among the stars than in general population. I could pass for Northern Indian if I had a little bit of a tan - enough to cover my pinkness (I currently have no tan at all).
The Tamil movie (Mollywood - Mumbai or Bombay) industry has darker skinned people than Bollywood, but even there, they're far paler than is the norm.
Those vids take too long to load, so I can't comment on them specifically, but I can tell you that advertisements here, whether on TV or newspapers or magazines are all about fair=lovely. There's one ad in particular that I remember with a young woman going into a beauty products type shop, looks at the mirror at herself and looks all forlorn and hopeless because she has darker skin than the models. The woman at the counter says, "Oh, but you can have lovely skin, too." The young woman comes back in a week or two all happy and radiant and a whole lot paler.
I've talked about this with locals, and they do not understand our white desire to tan. They can't wrap their heads around it. They buy into the whole fair=lovely bit that much.
And there are a surprising (to me) number of advertisements that feature white people - around half or more. That, to me, is really scary.
quote:White foreigners are treated better than African foreigners
Here, it's a bit of a contradiction. One the one hand, being a white foreigner, I automatically have high status. But because I'm white, I'm therefore rich, therefore I'm charged much much much more than anyone who's brown. The beggars clamor all over me and leave the rich Sri Lankans alone. I'm also resented because I'm white and therefore rich. There's very much a "screw the foreigner" mentality and behavior here as well. So, really, it's that some people treat me better than locals because I'm white, whereas other people treat me worse because they resent me.
And yeah, white people here are stared at. All. The. Time. Seriously. And everyone wants to talk to me, flirt with me, chat me up. Everyone wants my phone number. And everyone asks me for money or favors or to hire them or get them a job or get them a visa to (pick your country).
The other white foreigners I know here have experienced the same things.
ETA: I've managed to watch a couple, and the one with the Fair & Lovely fairness meter has aired here. Either that, or one very very similar to it. But I recognize the guy's voice, so probably.
The one with the lady hiding under the trees, then in the shade of the painting, to the shade of this that and the other is something that would air here. Don't know if it has, but it's the right kind of mentality for sure. I've seen bits and pieces of a few more, and yeah, they're sure looking legit from where I'm sitting.
Those products, or ones similar to them, exist here.
ETA2: Fahim confirmed one ad airs here - the one with the woman doing the cricket play by play. That ad is in Tamil, but when aired here, it's with Sinhalese voice overs.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Why can't we have a fashion industry that celebrates diversity. There is beauty in all types of bodies and all colors of skin and hair and yet the fashion industry seems to try to choral us into one narrow view of physical perfect. If you don't fit then you have to try to change.
Because it's easier to make a whole lot of people want to look the same, and more profitable. If the fashion industry can make everyone want to look the same, all they have to do is produce one look. If people WANT to be diverse, then they have to make all kinds of looks and fashions, which costs more money, and takes more time, and isn't quite as profitable.
I find it ironic that as much as dark skinned people want to be fair skinned, white people want to tan and take on the characteristics of dark cultures. Black guys want to date fair blonde barbie types, who want to tan and date black dudes. Black girls want blonde hair, blondes want dark skin. I guess the grass is always greener somehere else.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: Alt, are all of those real ads (in your link)?
--j_k
Yes they are.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
When I was working in India a few years ago, whenever we went to touristy places or parks or whatever, I seemed to draw as much attention as whatever the local attraction was. Several people asked if they could get a picture taken with me. Perhaps part of it was because I'm pale even for a white guy, I never really thought of it that way though. My friend Vikram thought most of them assumed I was an actor or rock star - I have longer hair than men wear in India, and was wearing a hawaiian shirt and dark sunglasses just about everywhere we went.
--Enigmatic
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: When I was working in India a few years ago, whenever we went to touristy places or parks or whatever, I seemed to draw as much attention as whatever the local attraction was. Several people asked if they could get a picture taken with me. Perhaps part of it was because I'm pale even for a white guy, I never really thought of it that way though. My friend Vikram thought most of them assumed I was an actor or rock star - I have longer hair than men wear in India, and was wearing a hawaiian shirt and dark sunglasses just about everywhere we went.
--Enigmatic
This exact thing happens to foreign tourists in China. Definately not exclusive to India.
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
There was a great book written in 1961 about this subject:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: If you don't fit then you have to try to change.
Which is a good thing in their eyes. They're selling products such as cosmetics and clothes. If they celebrated "diversity" in the way that you're describing then people would not have to buy as much or change as much, hence less sales.
If they never changed the look from year to year, then once you achieve that look you would not have to buy anything else, and their profits would go down.
They're not in business to make you look good or feel good about how you look. They're in business to sell you clothing, cosmetics, and whatnot. The fact that they're telling you that by following their direction, you'll look better is just the stick (or carrot?) to accomplish that goal.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
My friend Natasha's hair was falling out from all the chemicals to keep her hair straight and from stress. So she's gone totally natural and doing dred-locks. Her hair is fuller now and looks HOT. I'm for everyone going as close to natural as possible.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I keep mine short... Long hair is a bother. It looks sort of... annoying to me. But one day I'll have to grow it long and maybe relax it to look respectable -_-.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
My husband, Abhi, who is an Indian citizen, once mentioned that he would have had some trouble finding an Indian girl to marry, since he was so fair-skinned. Women apparently see it as something of a disgrace to be darker (and therefore, "uglier") than their husbands. But, yeah, in India fairer is better. And friends of mine from high school who grew up in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and China, used to worry about how tan they were getting from being in sports or marching band.
Luckily, I'm not blond, and I've got enough Mexican blood in me that I tan easily, so I shouldn't stand out too much when we visit India. Quid, if it makes you feel any better, merchants in Taiwan will rip you off even if you're Taiwanese, if you don't have the proper accent or slang. My friend used to complain that she had to visit family in Taiwan every few years to keep from sounding like she was from America (and therefore rich enough to afford the 200% markup).
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: My father has been told he speaks English well for a Cuban.
Frankly, he speaks English well for an American.
Darlin, that's nothing! I've been told that I speak English well (on more than one occasion), and how long have I been in this country.
Um, I was born in the US, and English is my only language. In fact, it was my major in college.
I guess I look "ethnic", huh? Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
On a semi-random note, I'd just like to add that black men use chemical relaxers too. From age 15 to present (age 23), my hair has gone from: cut every two weeks in order to be kept very short, to grown to semi-afro, to corn rows, to cut short again, to semi-afro again, to short locks, to corn rows again, to its current state of relaxed and tied back. I haven't paid for any hair styling in as long as I can remember though. I get my mommy to do it.
I am conscious of the fact that relaxers weaken hair though. It's recommended that you use them no more frequently than every 6 weeks... I usually do more like every 8. In the mean time I use shampoos and conditioners designed to strengthen. Also, I use a relaxer that is meant for children, so in theory shouldn't be as harsh. There's some breakage nonetheless, but my hair is still very thick and healthy. If it ever gets to be a major problem I'll just cut it short again. I hope it doesn't come to that though, because I really like it long.
And that's as much as I can talk about my hair care concerns without becoming a metrosexual! Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
You know, I've found that having one's hair chemically treated by a good salon actually does reduce breakage. I have my hair colored (from my natural dirty blonde to the red that everyone thinks is my natural color). I often don't wait six weeks. Actually, before I go on vacations, I often have the color refreshed, even if it's only been as little as two weeks (if I'm going to be gone for a while or am going to be in conditions that will probably strip my color a signficant amount). My hair is in better condition now than it was in before I started coloring it (five years ago). I alternated between having it done and doing it myself. It was definitely better when I had it done, and now that I've been having a hairstylist do it for almost a year, I'm amazed at the difference.
-pH
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote: And that's as much as I can talk about my hair care concerns without becoming a metrosexual! [Razz]
Syn, I like your hair short. Though I'm curious what it would look like if you ever grew it out, let us know if you try that!
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samuel Bush: There was a great book written in 1961 about this subject:
Maybe the reason everyone tends to think "exotic" is good, whatever that happens to be, is that you get better genes by marrying someone genetically less related to you. Less chance of both having any of the same recessive harmful genes. Perhaps it's actually a trait that enhances the genetic fitness of offspring, to be attracted to people who look really different than you and your family. Who knows? It would be hard to design a study to prove or disprove that bit of speculation.
I heard someone say once that children of mixed parentage are always really beautiful. My first thought was to dismiss that as untrue, but then I started thinking of the people I know whose parents were from very different parts of the world, and my anecdotal evidence sure seems to bear it out. They almost all are strikingly attractive. Hybrid vigor* ftw!
*of course, humans are all one species so it's not literally anything like hybrid vigor, but sorta the same idea, kinda. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I got into this sort of discussion at a party once. There was a fellow there with a blond ponytail and a Ph.D. in anthropology, who got a lot of help with his schooling because his grandmother got him official Native American tribal membership. He was really surprised that I semeed to know anything at all about Native American history and some of the new theories about life in pre-recorded history America. I usually try to take it as a compliment to my looks when men underestimate my intelligence. Makes it easier to avoid beating them with a shovel. *shrug* Anyway, I had read a few articles on the subject, because it interests me.
I basically ended up introducing myself as a 'proud North American mut' which really pleased another fellow involved in the conversation, who was also of mixed race (judging by appearances, mind you). Purebloods... well, take dogs for example. Many breeds of purebred dogs have developed pronounced genetic negatives. Many retrievers have serious hip problems, I forget which type of dog it is that has a tendedncy for their brains to keep growing after their skull us fused, making them crazy.
Genetic diversity is a really good thing.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I heard someone say once that children of mixed parentage are always really beautiful. My first thought was to dismiss that as untrue, but then I started thinking of the people I know whose parents were from very different parts of the world, and my anecdotal evidence sure seems to bear it out. They almost all are strikingly attractive.
I was talking about this with my grandfather once. He's a rancher and was saying that when you mate cows from different stocks, their children are usually very strong, hearty, and have nice coats. They generally seem to take the best qualities of both parents. He said that it didn't continue into the second generation.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
That's so interesting! I wonder what would be the genetic explanation for the second generation not having the same quality.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
This is just a guess, but here you go:
If you have two parents (generation zero) who do not have any common alleles for a given trait, all of their children will be hybrids for that trait. If mom has an "aa" genotype for a trait, and dad has "AA," then all the children will be "Aa". That's the first generation.
Then when the first generation has kids, statistically half of their children would be hybrids like their parents, and half would be homozygous like their grandparents. So overall there would be fewer hybrids in the stock. If there are four kids, two would be "Aa", one would be "AA" and the last would be "aa". That's the second generation.
If "Aa" happens to provide some genetic advantage over "AA" and "aa," then you might see the results Amanecer describes.
That could be one explanation, but I'm not a biologist and someone else can probably offer a better one.
--j_k
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
[from the husband, Abhi].
As an Indian, I feel the need to object to what seems like a pretty racist post to me. Not the discussion that has come since, but the post by its own seems quite racist and oversimplifies the issue.
The idea of fair skin being beautiful and dark skin not so much is not peculiar to India, or Asia. You only have to watch Disney moves [pre 2000] to see how the princess and prince are invariably pale as candles, and the "evil one" is dark. Hell, take Star Wars. The light side, the dark side. See?
In almost every culture, white is symbolic of purity, and its opposite, black, the symbol of impurity. This presents itself n various aspects of life: religion, art, skin preference, etc.
While I personally would not use fair & lovely [i'm very fair for an Indian already], I wouldn't make a sweeping moral judgement on people who do. It's just a choice that they make. Just like women who get boob jobs / nose jobs / butt jobs etc. I wouldn't do it, I'd discourage my friends from doing it, but ultimately, it's that individual's choice, and their decision.
Now to address your claims about India point by point.
1. Isn't this true in the US as well? Just look up the history of People magazine's sexiest people alive. How many of these fit the greek ideals of beautiful? How many are dark skinned people? Halle Berry? Please... she just looks like a very tanned white person. Her features are almost completely european / caucasian.
The claim that "in India, light skin equals beauty" is rubbish. Sure, there are people who'd agree with that, but there's people who disagree with that too. So please don't speak for the rest of us.
2. Ummm what? I have never, in my seventeen years of living in India, heard someone insult someone else by calling them "dark". You might be referring to the term "Kalmuhi" which is often mistranslated means dark-mouthed/faced, but it actually comes from Kal = bad [distinct from kala = black/dark], muhi = mouthed.
3. yeah. see point 1. amongst the most popular Indian actors of all time is Rajnikant, who is about the same complexion as Denzel Washington. It'd also be interesting if you'd do the same survey in the US, you'd probably get an identical list. Oh, and I'm Indian, and I think Salma Hayek is way, way hotter than Jolie.
Having said that, I'll admit openly that I would probably never date a black woman. Not because I'm racist, but because I just don't find typical african features aesthetically attractive. Does that mean I'm racist? I don't think so. Many of my close friends from college are Africans, and they wouldn't call me racist either.
4. Are you insinuating that American models resemble what the average american looks like? Do I need to remind you that more than 50% of the american population suffers from obesity? How many Obese models do you really have? It's not just America either, take any country, and take their models... they're basically the classical conception of beauty in that culture. Indians, being Aryans, also idealize the blonde hair, fair skin and blue eyes. And how many americans look like Brad Pitt? less than .5% i think.
5. The "quip" against Sonia Gandhi for being Italian is because she is in politics, and was in the running for the Prime F***ing Minister. When Katerina Kaif runs for PM, i'm sure she'll face the same criticism. And, look through a couple of newspapers will you, most of the "locals" -as you so politely put them- love her.
6. I guess your point is that we should all be buying stock in Unilever?
7. Yes, and white people go to tanning beds / beaches.
8. I accept your challenge. How do you want me to put you in touch with my father? I'd say I'm "wheatish complexion" even though I'm naturally fairer than a LOT of white people. It's just cultural vocab. thing. Really.
9. Guess what, white people are treated much better than Africans in the US too.
Perhaps I should have a more "civil" tone, but this poster is completely unapologetic about her uninformed, racist and ignorant comments.
When I was younger, my "dark" father taught me that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones at others. perhaps I can impart this lesson to you, Altariel.
I can tell from your post that you're white, you probably read a book, and suddenly feel some sort of "outrage" at how colored people are being treated etc. But take a look at yourself. You're doing the same.
[edited on Revka's suggestion]
[ February 05, 2007, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Abhi ]
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: he would have had some trouble finding an Indian girl to marry, since he was so fair-skinned. Women apparently see it as something of a disgrace to be darker (and therefore, "uglier") than their husbands.
Actually, I said my mom was worried about me being too fair because women generally want to be fairer than their husbands.
But I still love you :)
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'm pretty sure Alt isn't white...
-pH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: As an Indian, I feel the need to object to what seems like a pretty racist post to me. Not the discussion that has come since, but the post by its own seems quite racist and oversimplifies the issue.
Perfectly reasonable. As someone who has actually lived in the culture in question, you undoubtedly know more about the inner workings of it than outsiders do.
And most of your post was similarly rational and reasonable. However, when you started calling Alt a "total idiot" and similar comments, you crossed the line. As for this:
quote:Originally posted by Abhi: Perhaps I should have a more "civil" tone, but this poster is completely unapologetic about her uninformed, racist and ignorant comments.
When I was younger, my "dark" father taught me that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones at others. perhaps I can impart this lesson to you, Altariel.
I can tell from your post that you're white, you probably read a book, and suddenly feel some sort of "outrage" at how colored people are being treated etc. But take a look at yourself. You're doing the same.
it simply proved that you are jumping to unwarranted (and faulty) conclusions, and then using them as an excuse to toss civility out the window.
We like divergent opinions around here. I thought the beginning of your post was interesting and informative.
But we also expect posters to be courteous to one another, even when -- maybe especially when -- they disagree. Nor is this the first time that Hatrackers have pointed out this expectation to you. An expectation you agreed to when you signed up.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I have half a mind to say that she is white just to make a point, but, meh.
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Abhi: And most of your post was similarly rational and reasonable. However, when you started calling Alt a "total idiot" and similar comments, you crossed the line. As for this:
We like divergent opinions around here. I thought the beginning of your post was interesting and informative. :)
But we also expect posters to be courteous to one another, even when -- maybe especially when -- they disagree. Nor is this the first time that Hatrackers have pointed out this expectation to you. An expectation you agreed to when you signed up.
Yes, I guess I got a little carried away, but this isn't about a difference of opinion. It's a particular person making generalized remarks about 1 billion people.
I guess I was also surprised by the fact that no-one before me really questioned the inherently racist and problematic nature of the post.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
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