This is topic Valentine's Day in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 
What are your feelings about this Hallmark Holiday? I personally don't like it at all. It just pressures couples to do something extra, and if they don't, they get in trouble with their partner. For those who don't have someone in their life, it's just another reminder that they're alone. Plus, I never trust any holiday created by a card company.
 
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 
The only benefit I can see; it gives otherwise timid people an excuse to express their feelings about someone without bringing too much attention to themselves.
 
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
 
I personally like V-day... it gives us another excuse to take loved ones out to dinner and a movie :)
my wife and I started dating valentine's day in 2004, so the day has served me well :)
 
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
I think Holidays in general are fun. They give us an excuse to celebrate and enjoy. I happen to like Valentine's Day. Admittedly, this particular holiday is more fun when you have a signifant other. But even though I'm currently single, I still plan on getting together with single friends and enjoying the day.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I don't celebrate or recognise this holiday.

True story, one of my most mortifying and traumatic childhood experiences revolves around Valentines Day.

In first grade, my teacher had us all bring in shoeboxes to decorate and turn into Valentines mailboxes. Then we were supposed to make valentines cards and put them in our friends's mailboxes. The point, explained the teacher, was to see who in our class was the "most loved."

I wanted to be the most loved. I was lovable, wasn't I?

So, I made lots and lots of valentines cards and stuffed my own mailbox with them. The teacher discovered my deception, and mocked me in front of the class. "Someone loves herself best of all!" "She loves herself and no one else!"

I mean, I was just a little kid, and she made me feel very small. She also threw out all the cards that were in my box (the ones I made and the ones other people put in), and sent a note home to my parents.

I recognise now that she was hateful and inappropriate, but at the time, I idolized my first grade teacher, and I was completely crushed.

I'm not a big fan of the holiday. And I do hope that they don't do this any more in elementary schools. Believe me, the kids are painfully aware of who is popular and who is not. They don't need a graphic reminder at the front of the classroom.

::wipes away a tear::

(OK, I was kidding about the tear)
 
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
 
I choose to celebrate thw fact that February 14th is Arizona Statehood Day. Arizona became a state on February 14th, 1912. [Party]
 
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
Ah Tante... that's horrible. [Frown]
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I know! What the heck was going on in that elementary school of mine? The whole place was kind of bizarre.

But, I'm over it by now. No worries!
 
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
 
I call this holiday Lonely Day...
 
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
Tante, your teacher was just plain stupid.

And you are very lovable! We all know that! (((The Shvester)))

Now let me ask: Has anyone ever seen me hug someone on Hatrack before? Hasn't happened. Must be Valentine's day magic.

But seriously, I think of Valentine's day as a sort of Great American Smokeout for people who need a little extra push to ask that someone for a date when they don't have enough confidence to do it by themselves. Yes it's risky, but if you spend all your time worrying about the risk, you might never ask.

(crossing my fingers for my son's sake this Valentine's day)
 
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Great Valentine's Day info link:

http://www.americanantiquarian.org/Exhibitions/Valentines/origins.htm
 
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
At my grade school, if you were going to bring valentines for a few people at school, you had to bring valentines for everyone in your class. That way, horrible situations like Tante's were avoided. I always looked forward to the date, since the non-slacker kids (or their moms) made valentines with awesome candy or cookies or whatever.

Now I look forward to the date for other, slightly more mature, reasons. [Smile]

Although boy, was it nasty when Abhi asked me to come over to his place on V-day, and watch a movie and have some pizza, with no context on what, exactly, the invitation meant. Was it just the hanging out of two friends? Was it a date? Did I want it to be a date? What if he thought it was a date, but then I didn't act date-ish enough, so he decided it wasn't a date, even though I maybe wanted it to be a date?

Moral of the story, boys: when you extend any sort of invitation to a single girl to do something on Valentine's Day, make it clear whether it's a date or not. We tend to overthink these things.
 
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
 
I kind of like Valentines day. For the majority of my Valentine Days I've been alone, but it didn't really bother me. I just figured "One day, I'm going to really really enjoy this holiday, even if its not today". I could never bring myself to wish ill to it because I had a feeling I'd be enjoying it immensely eventually.

And I was right.

[Smile]


(ahem ... I know you're going to be reading this, so you still need to tell me what you want. Have pity on a guy [Wink] )
 
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
I think Valentine's Day is great! I personally can't be told I'm loved too often. [Smile] I want to be lavished with affection 365 days a year, actually, but 1 day is better than none. [Razz]

So what are some good ideas for thoughtful Valentines presents?
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I like Valentine's Day. Actually, I like just about any excuse to come up with cute gifts for my boyfriend. My friend and I made gel candles with roses inside. [Big Grin] [Cool]

-pH
 
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
But Jhai, it worked out, right? Maybe it was partly because he was ambiguous about the date-nature of the invitation. [Smile]
 
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
 
I'm in the category of timid guys that uses Valentine's Day to tell girls I like them when normally I wouldn't. It also never works. But it's fun.
 
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
 
Heh. Anyone remember last Valentines Day when I made that mayfly about "building a cake", a la Napoleon Dynamite, to ask a girl to a Valentines Banquet? Memories ...

[Razz]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
The thing that is weird to me is people talking about "an excuse" to do nice/romantic things.

I don't need an excuse to do these things. I love doing them. I love seeing the look of joy on my girlfriend's face when I do something nice for her, especially something that she didn't expect. Yesterday, I snuck roses into her place and set them up in vase on her kitchen counter where she found them about 30 minutes later. And that was great. I try to make her feel as special as she is whenever I can and this sometimes takes the form of doing silly/romantic things for her or buying little gifts or treating her to something when the whim strikes me.

I don't need an excuse for this. And I sure as heck don't need an obligation to do it, which is what Valentine's day is to me. If I didn't want to do these things, setting aside a day where I have to is just going to piss me off. Because I want to do them, Valentine's Day just robs them of a lot of the meaning because I'm obligated to do them. So I don't celebrate it. Given a choice between a guy who does these things at random points during the year and one who does them only on February 14th, I've yet to meet a girl who prefers the latter.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I agree with you, Squick, but I've met a whole lot of guys who said the same thing and then never did the romantic things the rest of the year. (Not saying you don't. I'm sure you do. I'm just saying, for other's benefit, that you can't say 'Hey, that's a great idea, I'm going to do that, too!" and then not follow through.)
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
My boyfriend and I do sweet, romantic things for one another year-round. But it's nice to have something to celebrate. We gave each other gifts at Halloween, even. He's mailed me cards before (we've never been long-distance) and not even mentioned them until they finally came in the mail. He leaves random notes all over the house for me to find later (especially when I'm not feeling well). This isn't my first arts and crafts gift project; I randomly made him a leather bracelet with our initials on it, as well as an adorable hat that he wears all the time. But I fail to see how celebrating Valentine's Day takes away from any of those things.

-pH
 
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
My mother curses Valentine's day every year. Another 26 Valentines to make and name.

Back in England we celebrated too, but there was no official school thing. You gave valentines to your friends and you went home. It wasn't such a big deal. I do not remember counting my Valentines.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
(((Glenn)))
 
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
My thoughts on Valentine's Day are simple: if you like it, celebrate it.

If you don't, for heaven's sake, don't whine about it.
 
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
My thoughts on Valentine's Day are simple: if you like it, celebrate it.

If you don't, for heaven's sake, don't whine about it.

That's kind of how I feel for all holidays.
 
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
In my kids' school, the teachers tell you how many people are in the class, then you bring that many valentines with no names on them, other than yours - you sign them so they know who they're from but don't fill in the "To:" section.

Then you put one in everybody's box or bag or whatever, and that way they know they got one from you, but by not having them addressed, it eliminates anybody getting left out. Theoretically.

I always send extra, just so there's plenty. I don't want any kid to ever feel left out. What happened to Tante was awful. [Frown]
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
My thoughts on Valentine's Day are simple: if you like it, celebrate it.

If you don't, for heaven's sake, don't whine about it.

If only it were that simple.

You have to make sure that your honey also doesn't like it before you can safely choose to not celebrate it.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
You speak wisely.
 
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
Happy Single's Awareness day, everyone.

This is the day I remember that all my roommates have loving, caring boyfriends, and I don't even have friends at this school. I'd like to date. I really would. But I just don't... meet people.

So come Tuesday, I'll be alone in the room, studying and playing video games. * sigh *
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
An excuse to cook a special dinner, eat chocolate, go out to eat, dress my kids up in cute themed clothing? Love it. Not so much into big gifts or store-bought cards, though.
 
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tinros:

So come Tuesday, I'll be alone in the room, studying and playing video games. * sigh *

Umm...did I miss something? What happens Tuesday? [Wink]
 
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
I hand out valentines to everyone still - a friend and I are getting together to label all our valentines probably tomorrow for everyone in the department. It's just something nice to do - I certainly don't have any grand romantic plans. I use Valentine's Day as a way to remember everyone, even if I forget about them most of the rest of the time. [Smile]
 
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tinros:
Happy Single's Awareness day, everyone.

[ROFL]

You in Japan there's White Day, when the men reciprocate for the women. According to wikipedia, it was invented by marshmallow and white chocolate companies.
 
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tinros:
Happy Single's Awareness day, everyone.

This is the day I remember that all my roommates have loving, caring boyfriends, and I don't even have friends at this school. I'd like to date. I really would. But I just don't... meet people.

So come Tuesday, I'll be alone in the room, studying and playing video games. * sigh *

Ummmm.....Valentine's Day is Wed.

Just sayin'. [Wink]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
I agree with you, Squick, but I've met a whole lot of guys who said the same thing and then never did the romantic things the rest of the year. (Not saying you don't. I'm sure you do. I'm just saying, for other's benefit, that you can't say 'Hey, that's a great idea, I'm going to do that, too!" and then not follow through.)
It may just be me, but I'd have major trouble appreciating romantic gestures that I (and society) basically forced on someone. If the guy doesn't want to do it, do girls still really enjoy it? Is it really not the thought that counts? Or have they just gotten good at convincing themselves that the guy is being sincere?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Maybe the act of love is not the flowers, but getting her the flowers despite not caring for the holiday.

In other words, no convincing needed. He thinks it is dumb, but he loves her and she doesn't, so he gets her flowers and they make her happy. I think someone has to very unselfish and sweet to think about his partner instead of himself.

Boycotting it without the enthusiastic consent of one's partner or else giving a gift begrudgingly is horribly self-centered.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I like Valentine's Day.

It's nice to have a holiday specifically set up to honor Love.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think I like it. This will be the first time in my life I'll spend it with someone on the actual day. Last year I was still in Dallas, and before that I seemed to ahve a lot of breakups in January.

We set a dollar limit on the presents because we both just sunk a great deal of money into the cars, but I'm making dinner with his favorite foods and I have a new dress to wear. I think it will be great. [Smile]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
I think someone has to very unselfish and sweet to think about his partner instead of himself.
See, and I think that this part is kind of telling. The situation could quite easily be framed the other way.

Maybe it is terribly selfish of me to not spend premium prices for gifts for a holiday I really have problems with and instead do little romantic things throughout the year. I have to wonder about the flip-side of that though. Isn't it at least as selfish for the girl to essentially force me into something I really have problems with? Why is it only the girl's feelings that are important in your formulation, kat?

---

Plus, take a poll of guys who don't want to do V-day stuff, but do anyway, and I think you'll find "Because she'll get pissed at me." is at least as common a motivation as "Because it means a lot to her." Is wanting to avoid a fight a sweet motivation? For that matter, do you think that a girl is justified in getting angry if her boyfriend doesn't meet her baseline expectations for this?
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I dislike Valentine's Day. I feel terrible anxiety about obligated gifts. I feel like I'm being pulled up on the stage and ordered "Be funny and clever, NOW!"

Although this year I have something cool to do, so I feel very little anxiety. It's not something that I came up with on my own, though, which makes me kinda lame.
 
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I like having a set holiday to be all counterculture against (while enjoying the specials on chocolate). We have a running gag where I whine at David, "But you haven't gotten me any dyyya-monnds, where are my dyyya-monds?" and then he threatens to drag me to Jared's.

"He went to Jared's."
"He went to Jared's."

And I threaten to kick him in the nuts if he drags me to some "Galleria of Jewelry." It's fun. [Smile]
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Yeah. It sounds really good.

[/Princess Bride]
 
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
A Valentine's Day card I would buy in a heartbeat would show the Hallmark logo with bullet holes in it, along with a tommygun--in memory of Al Capone's St. Valentine's Day Massacre, since that is about the only notable thing that ever happened on February 14. (My apologies to anyone whose birthday might be Feb. 14.)
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
My condolences to anyone whose birthday is February 14.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
Although this year I have something cool to do, so I feel very little anxiety.
That's half the battle of ANY romance. Spontaneity is over-rated, especially if you're on a tight budget.

It's completely okay for HER to think you're spontaneous, though. If she likes that sort of thing. Finding out what she wants is 3/4 of the other half of the romance. The last fourth is doing it.

IMO.
 
Posted by tarantella (Member # 9943) on :
 
My single friends have a different name for Valentine's Day: Cupid Passover.
 
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
"Cupid Passover" sounds like bad news if you're firstborn.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, baloney, Squickie. It's an impersonal pronoun.

If someone is doing nice things for their partner only because they don't want to "get in trouble" or have someone mad at them, rather than because they know it will make the other person happy, then yeah...I can see how a day dedicated to love would make them uncomfortable.

quote:
For that matter, do you think that a girl is justified in getting angry if her boyfriend doesn't meet her baseline expectations for this?
No. Expressions of love should be happily given and seen as a gift every time. No one is OWED an expression of love - it's always a gift.

That's why if it is given begrudgingly it is so crappy. Come on - there's no gun to your head. If you don't want to, you don't have to. I think someone can be SAD that they didn't get anything, but not angry.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
You keep on discounting the guy's, and specifically my, perspective. I'll repeat.
quote:
Maybe it is terribly selfish of me to not spend premium prices for gifts for a holiday I really have problems with and instead do little romantic things throughout the year. I have to wonder about the flip-side of that though. Isn't it at least as selfish for the girl to essentially force me into something I really have problems with? Why is it only the girl's feelings that are important in your formulation, kat?
---
quote:
I can see how a day dedicated to love would make them uncomfortable.
I don't think Valentine's day as it is commonly practiced is dedicated to love as much as it is to consumerism and presents.

At best, I think you could say that this is "romance". I'd still disagree, but whatever.

Love, in my perspective, doesn't work as a something that can have a day dedicated to it. Love is a constant quality. It is in part the confusion of love with the "romance" of V-day, especially the cosumerist definitions cultivated by card and flower and jewelry companies that makes me really dislike the cultural conception of the day.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
No one is OWED an expression of love - it's always a gift.
I disagree. On Valentine's Day, expressions of love are excpected. Roses and chocolate are the baseline.

Unfortunately, not doing anything for your honey on VDay will usually be interpreted as is an expression of not-love.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Squicky, you have as usual missed the entire point, read everything wrong, and can't break out of the view you've convinced yourself is true.

-----

MPH: I don't think that's true, any more than on a regular day. Not for everyone. Really, only one person's opinion counts for this. If your wife would like something, then that's her - hers is the only opinion you have to consider.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
not doing anything for your honey on VDay will usually be interpreted as is an expression of not-love.
It's no different than the position of the toilet seat, IMO.

:shrug:

I think that if couples actually talked about their expectations for V-day instead of just assuming that the other person should do X, they'd learn to love it more.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I don't believe I have ever gotten roses or chocolates on Feb. 14th, and I've not felt slighted.

Oh wait -- one year I got a silk flower arrangement including roses from a guy who was sort of stalking me. Does that count?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That's a good point, Scott.

For myself, I love the idea of having a nice Valentine's Day. So...I planned a nice Valentine's Day. I asked Matt if he had thought about getting me anytying, and then proposed a dollar limit, and offered to fix dinner. This is important to me, but I'm not waiting for him to read my mind and make it happy. I just want his cooperation. When things are important to him, it works the other way, and I go. Except to the Tenacious D movie.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
I don't believe I have ever gotten roses or chocolates on Feb. 14th, and I've not felt slighted.
My comment about the roses and chocolates was hyperbole, I admit it. But still, doing something sweet and romantic is pretty much the baseline.

quote:
I think that if couples actually talked about their expectations for V-day instead of just assuming that the other person should do X, they'd learn to love it more.
I agree.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Squicky, you have as usual missed the entire point, read everything wrong, and can't break out of the view you've convinced yourself is true.
How so? All I'm doing is asking you to answer my questions. I don't see how forcing someone to celebrate or at least hold them accountable for not celebrating a day that they have serious problems with is any less self-centered than someone not celebrating a day they have serious problems with because it will make the other person happy. Could you explain why I am incorrect?

---

I'm not expecting anything to come of this, but could I again ask you stop throwing personal insults at me?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You have missed the entire point because I have never advocated and have in fact decried both force and holding someone accountable for actions not taken. Keep that in your RAM, and reread my posts.
 
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
 
OK, so while we're at it, which day is more important to the romantically inclined--Valentine's Day or Sweetest Day? I prefer the latter. At least it does not invoke some saint I do not believe in, as a Protestant.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
This is the Love thread.

No mistaking it now.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I have no idea what Sweetest Day is.

Therefore I love it.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
You have missed the entire point because I have never advocated and have in fact decried both force and holding someone accountable for actions not taken. Keep that in your RAM, and reread my posts.
But you seem to me to be saying that people who don't celebrate Valentine's day when their girlfriend wants them to have personal flaws. I am attempting to present the flipside of that argument, which is that the girlfriend and other people (like yourself) saying that they should do this or are flawed people because they don't are showing at least an equal level of disrespect for their feelings.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
My condolences to anyone whose birthday is February 14.

Thank you. But that's not necessary -- really. ;-)

Most of the February 14ths of my life have been spectacular failures from the Valentine's Day perspective. But people pay attention to me anyway and make me feel special because it's my birthday! Plus they're more likely to remember it.

I have one horrible/wonderful Valentine's/Bday memory. It was the year that I was living in the DC area and had recently broken up w/ a guy from Richmond I'd been involved with quite seriously. He then proceeded to begin dating a girl from my own group of friends--she wasn't a particularly close friend, but it was still a pretty humiliating experience in a lot of ways that are hard for me to explain. (I couldn't figure out why he couldn't find someone else near him to date--he had to pick someone from my close-knit little group?) Anyway, I was in a depression over it and I'm pretty transparent so EVERYONE knew how I was feeling which was totally embarrassing to me.

So anyway, a friend of mine invited me over to her apartment for dinner for my bday. Well, turned out there was a blizzard that day and I called and said, "look, I'll have to dig my car out and the conditions are really dangerous out there, can I just take a rain check?" When she got practically hysterical on me over that idea, I clued in that there was a surprise party in the works, which was the last thing on earth I was in the mood for, but I dutifully showed up anyway.

So there I sat, as all these friends braved that storm and showed up for my birthday (minus the ex and the girl he was dating), and I figured they would never have gone to all that trouble if they hadn't felt so darned sorry for me! And I felt like a fool, and like I was depressed and didn't want a party anyway, but I must say -- I don't know if I've ever felt so loved.

(yes, it was a long time ago and I'm over it and on friendly terms w/ all concerned; it was just a lot of drama at the time.)

My only traumatic elementary school Valentine's Day experience pales in comparison w/ Tante's, but I'll share it anyway. My 2nd grade teacher had the requisite calendar up in the front of the classroom, featuring holdays, important dates, and the names of the students written in on the date of their birthday. There was a boy in the class with the same birthday as mine, so on Feb. 14 there was a big heart for Valentine's Day with the names Duane and Kristina written under it. We were teased mercilessly that month. It didn't help that I was painfully shy and Duane was cute and I had a crush on him!

*Surreptiously stuffs lots of Valentines in Tante's box. And burns her stupid teacher in effigy.* (Honestly, who lets these sadist types teach sensitive little children, anyway? I was SO lucky that I was never had an elementary teacher like that.)
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Keeping score between sweethearts is a bad idea.

Seriously, it can be resolved the same way all other differences between a couple gets resolved. I suspect the chances are better when no one is counting the costs.


-----

The only V-Day I remember in elementary school was when I worked up the courage to put the hearts with letters that spelled out L-O-V-E in Jeffrey Stalling's box in fourth grade. I was on edge for the rest of the day, seeing if he could decipher the clue and realize he loved me too. Of course he didn't - I can't believe I thought that would work. And then my friend Alia started kissing him and that clue he got, so so much for me. *dramatic sigh* I kept the crush all the way until sixth grade, when he started talking to me and showed me how he could play the drums with his pencils. I realized, to my horror, that he was kind of an idiot, and poof! the crush was gone.

Evil moral of the story: Don't let the eye candy talk. [Wink]

[ February 12, 2007, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
But Jhai, it worked out, right? Maybe it was partly because he was ambiguous about the date-nature of the invitation. :)

Yea, I'm all about the ambiguity... the girl pretty much can't say "no, i'm not gonna hang out with you" and pretty much from there on, you just nudge your way all the way to getting married and living happily ever after :)
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Please put the toilet seat down after flushing.
 
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
True story, one of my most mortifying and traumatic childhood experiences revolves around Valentines Day.

Have we discussed this before or do I know lots of people who did this and got caught? Cause this is sounding really familiar!

I bought cookies to send to the school with my 10 year old, because her class will have a little party but they won't allow home-made stuff anymore. I offered to buy or bake something for the teenager's lunch table and her boyfriend, but she refused. Tomorrow night the 10 year old and I will write cards for her classmates after dinner. We won't do anything for ourselves at home, though, and I don't have any type of significant other to celebrate with.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Please put the toilet seat down after flushing.

Huh?
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Porter:

Expecting something on Valentine's Day is similar to expecting that the toilet seat be put down after use.

How you respond to something that your partner desires says a lot about who you are. How your partner communicates that desire says a lot about who they are.

The desire itself, for a Valentine's Day gift, or for a specific toilet seat position, is really insignificant.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
And burns her stupid teacher in effigy.
Half-measures.

Uh...you didn't hear that from me.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Thank you, Scott. It's obviously Monday morning.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
It is?

Oh...someone's in trouble.

I said no more Mondays, dangit!
 
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
 
My boyfriend and I will exchange gifts (I got him something small, but I think he'll really enjoy it and it's something that he can either do by himself or we can do it together. He hasn't gotten mine yet, but that's because he's really picky with gifts and likes to get the perfect thing), and over the weekend we'll go wander through the farmers' market and probably bake cookies together. I tend to be so busy with school that we don't get to spend much time together. Even on weekends I have work to do all day and I like to get to bed by 11, so it doesn't leave much time to hang out.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
When I was in fourth grade, I made one set of Valentines for the whole class from me...and another set of Valentines from 'The Falcon.'

I even put a Valentine from the Falcon in my box before leaving for school, to throw off the scent.

No one cared. Nobody even really noticed that there was a mysterious, secret person, dropping Valentinian mystery on the classroom.

:sigh:

And that began my long descent into madness and evil.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
But when did the despicable spoon stuff start?
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
I agree with you, Squick, but I've met a whole lot of guys who said the same thing and then never did the romantic things the rest of the year. (Not saying you don't. I'm sure you do. I'm just saying, for other's benefit, that you can't say 'Hey, that's a great idea, I'm going to do that, too!" and then not follow through.)
It may just be me, but I'd have major trouble appreciating romantic gestures that I (and society) basically forced on someone. If the guy doesn't want to do it, do girls still really enjoy it? Is it really not the thought that counts? Or have they just gotten good at convincing themselves that the guy is being sincere?
Oh, I totally don't think anyone should make little romantic gestures if they don't want to, on Valentine's Day or any other time. It's just a personal pet peeve when I run into guys who make big speeches about how they don't celebrate Valentine's Day because it doesn't mean anything when your culturally expected to do it and they do sweet things randomly throughout the year and that's so much better. . . and then they don't. I've encountered this multiple times, it's not at all unusual. And you know what? I'm completely fine with not getting flowers and candy at Valentine's Day or any other time. Some people are good at the romantic stuff, some people aren't. Some people aren't but think it's important to their SO and so try anyway, some people show their love in other ways. It's all good. I just don't like it when people are hypocritical about it. Or maybe they mean it when they say it, and are just bad at follow-through. *shrug*

My current relationship is a long distance one, and we've agreed not to exchange gifts for birthdays, Christmas, or Valentine's Day. I'd much rather the money be spent on plane tickets. [Smile]
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
when did the despicable spoon stuff start?
Mind your own business, Nosy-Rosy.

It's enough for your kind to know that I have done despicable things with a spoon.

Now, tremble.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Oh, I get that. Being a guy, it's not something I've ever encountered, but I'm very big on the authenticity in relationships.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
I run into guys who make big speeches about how they don't celebrate Valentine's Day because it doesn't mean anything when your culturally expected to do it and they do sweet things randomly throughout the year and that's so much better. . . and then they don't.
They don't need to -- they fulfilled that obligation, kicking and screaming, on Valentine's Day. [Wink]
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That's part I don't like - the kicking and screaming. [Razz] If someone really doesn't want to do anything for that day, I'd hope they'd talk it over with the person that would be affected by that decision. If they DO decide to do something, then I hope it wouldn't it be done begrudgingly.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
And if they decide not to do something, you consider them "horribly self-centered".
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You're assuming again, Squicky, with predictable results.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Boycotting it without the enthusiastic consent of one's partner or else giving a gift begrudgingly is horribly self-centered.

 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Well, my husband is under strict instructions not o so much as mention V-Day to me. He has successfully done this for four years now, so I don't see any reason for it to change this year.

It's not just men who think it's a worthless holiday. Of course, I've got desperately bad memories from my school days that I will probably never get over and don't feel like posting on a public message board. Suffice to say that Tante's experience is not entirely unique (although I have to say that a teacher having a competition to see who has the most friends is about the most irresponsible thing I've heard yet).
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Squicky, what you quoted belied what you said. Yes, I stand by what I said. There are clues in there that might tip you off as to the conditions required. Read closely. They're there. Don't get discouraged. Reading comprehension is hard, I know.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
I don't like valentines day. I just want a box of chocolate.

Of course, my hubby has taken my lax attitude and abused it. He's making me go to a (explitive) Golden State Warriors game on Valentine's day.

What the (explitive) is going through that man's (explitive) brain??

I love him and would do anything for him, but jeez!
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Hey, you know what else reminds me of being in the fourth grade?

Take a guess.

If someone knows that their partner desires something reasonable; if that person honestly loves their partner; if that partner communicates that desire in a way that is comfortable and for both parties; then for the one to NOT give to the other IS self-centered.

I think all these qualifications were implied in Kat's orginal statement.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Roses and chocolate are the baseline.

Unless your spouse/girlfriend/whatever tells you she's allergic to one and doesn't want the other. Seriously.

(Not that my husband would get me roses now that he knows about the allergy-- although my parents can't remember it, he has to live with me, so can and does. [Smile] And my dad already ruined the no-chocolate resolution this year. But I was just reading the blog of a poor woman who is allergic to chocolate and EVERY YEAR her husband gets chocolate anyway, goes, "Oh, you're allergic? Oh." and then EATS IT IN FRONT OF HER. Oy.)
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
I'm sorry. I thought that it was clear that I was implying that their girlfriends would not be enthusiastically consenting with their decision. I didn't think that people would think I was describing a situation where they said "Honey, I don't think we should do something for Valentine's." and she responded with "Yeah, that sounds good."

I was thinking that they explained that they didn't want to do anything and were not met with enthusiastic consent. I thought that would be clear to people reading it, but I guess I should have specified.

Let me ammend my statement to: And if they, not receiving the enthusiastic consent of their girlfriend, decide not to do something, you consider them "horribly self-centered".

Do you stand behind that?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
If someone knows that their partner desires something reasonable; if that person honestly loves their partner; if that partner communicates that desire in a way that is comfortable and for both parties; then for the one to NOT give to the other IS self-centered.

 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Mr.Squicky, part of a relationship is compromise. Another is deciding whether your partner's wishes and needs are more than yours on an issue and making a decision to go with what they want sometimes. So maybe the solution where one partner wants it and the other doesn't is to decide who will be more hurt, the person who has to celebrate it or the person who doesn't get to because of the other's wishes, and then come to a compromise (we will do something special at home, but not go out or buy presents, thereby avoiding the things my partner hates most about V-day; or we will celebrate every other year; or some similar compromise.) If one person absolutely can't make some concession to the other's wish to celebrate a holiday that's important to him or her, I do think that is self-centered.

My husband never celebrated St. Patrick's day in any way growing up, and could really care less about it. It's important to me that we eat a special meal that day and have a few other traditions, so since I'm the one who does the cooking, he goes along with it. I realize that's not totally analogous, but it's something I appreciate because he's not into it and would just as soon not celebrate as celebrate, but he does it for me.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
If someone knows that their partner desires something reasonable; if that person honestly loves their partner; if that partner communicates that desire in a way that is comfortable and for both parties; then for the one to NOT give to the other IS self-centered.
And I guess I'm still waiting for someone to explain why someone saying "I want to do X." trumps the other saying "I don't want to do X." I can see if there are differences in degree (e.g. "I really want to do X." vs. "I don't particularly want to do X."), but all I'm seeing is that wanting trumps not wanting. And I don't see how that is.

In other threads we've touched on the etiquitte of physical contact between people and the general consensus seems to be the opposite of this idea. That is, peopel who desire physical contact with their friends and loved ones should respect these people's desire not to be touched. Where is the dividing line for these things?
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
In addition to doing something that will make your partner happy, you CAN actually choose to love what she wants you to do.

In line with KQ's St. Patrick's day story, my wife and her family have huge family get togethers at Christmas. HUGE with a capital BIG. I'm not a big fan of get-togethers; neither is my family. But I decided early on in our relationship that there was nothing harmful in them; they were all pretty pleasant people; and why SHOULDN'T I have a good time with mostly harmless, pleasant people?

I should, dangit, and I do.

Now, whether they enjoy me is debatable.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It's that word "trumps." You're not competing - this isn't a power struggle. If people in a relationship start counting the cost, then I think that is self-centered. On a practical level, it is also a bad idea, because making someone else important in your life - more important than yourself a lot of the time - DOES cost, and the payoff isn't always as apparent. Especially if someone is feeling aggrieved.

No one can choose what the other person will do - only what they will do. It doesn't matter what the other person is choosing to do - deliberatly ignoring a reasonable desire on the part of one's partner, after it has been communicated decently, is self-centered.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Because not getting something you want (this includes attention, not just physical things, and is referring to specifically in a relationship) is almost always more disappointing than getting something you don't want.

If my husband hated a holiday SO MUCH that it trumped my love of the holiday and need to carry on and create traditions (I'm very into little rituals and traditions in our family), I would probably give in and not do it. But I just don't see someone absolutely hating any holiday quite that much. And honestly, I wouldn't have married someone who hated any holiday that much, it seems a little weird. [Wink]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kq,
quote:
Mr.Squicky, part of a relationship is compromise. Another is deciding whether your partner's wishes and needs are more than yours on an issue and making a decision to go with what they want sometimes.
Have I not been clear that I do in fact have a problem with Valentine's Day?

I don't have a problem with comprimise. As far as I can see, what is getting offered here is not comprimise, but rather condemnation of the person who doesn't want to go along with Valentine's Day and disregard for their feelings, because if they loved the other person, they'd shut up and do it for them. Which, to me at least, suggests the question, shouldn't the other person be under a similar obligation to respect their partner's wishes to not want to do this thing, to forego something they enjoy because their love for their partner? I'm being told apparently not and I don't understand what the difference is.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You can't choose what the other person will do - only what you will do.

If you plan on expressing affection the rest of the year anyway, why not the rest of the year + one day?
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
No one can choose what the other person will do - only what they will do. It doesn't matter what the other person is choosing to do - deliberatly ignoring a reasonable desire on the part of one's partner, after it has been communicated decently, is self-centered.
So, if someone expressed the reasonable desire to not celebrate Valentine's day, would you agree that it is self-centered to ignore this? In which case, how do you justify saying that, after having a conversation about this where the boyfriend expresses that he doesn't want to do it and the girlfriend expresses that she does, the boyfriend is always self-centered when he doesn't do anything.

To me a situation like that would involve compromise, not saying that the one person is always self-centered.

---
quote:
Because not getting something you want (this includes attention, not just physical things, and is referring to specifically in a relationship) is almost always more disappointing than getting something you don't want.
That's a god-awful type of reasoning when extended to many other areas. The boyfriend wants sex. The girlfriend doesn't. Is she self-centered for saying no?

Or take my physical contact example. Are you saying that people should be considered self-centered if they don't go along with their friends and loved ones desire for physical contact? That would put you at odds with nearly all the people who posted in those threads.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
I don't like valentines day. I just want a box of chocolate.

Of course, my hubby has taken my lax attitude and abused it. He's making me go to a (explitive) Golden State Warriors game on Valentine's day.

What the (explitive) is going through that man's (explitive) brain??

My guess is that he was thinking that you don't like Valentine's Day and just want a box of chocolate.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Do you really object to expressing affection? Maybe if you didn't think of it as Valentine's Day - just an ordinary Wednesday. Would that make being nice to your girlfriend palatable?

Maybe this is the crux: No, I don't think a desire to withhold affection from a romantic partner because you're mad at society - to the point that you're willing to make her unhappy - is reasonable.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
You can't choose what the other person will do - only what you will do.
I have no idea why that is relevant to what I said, which was about the competing obligations inherent in a situation where one person wants to do something and the other doesn't. This is again something that would apply on both sides. The wanting person can choose their actions just as well as the non-wanting person. Why is the non-wanting person always self-centered if the couple goes with the non-doing option while the wanting person isn't enthusiatically consenting to this?
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
In the case Squicky is describing, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "Honey, I have a serious problem with Valentine's Day. I don't like it for x, y, and z reasons, and I'd rather not celebrate it. Instead, I think we should focus on showing each other how much we care throughout the year." I would imagine many women would be fine with it, as long as he follows through. I know I certainly would be. If he's dating someone who thinks Valentine's Day is important for some reason, she can lay out why, and they can have a discussion about it. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Because expressing affection between partners - in whatever way a couple has decided to do it - should be the default. If she really wants it, I think it is unreasonable to deliberately dissapoint her.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
kat -- Of course there is nothing wrong with expressing affection on V-day or any other day. Most people who have problems with V-day have two specific gripes:

1. commercialization
2. bad memories that involve being single or friendless or both and feeling terribly left out

In my case, it was all of that.

Given my history, it would be incredibly unfeeling of my husband to come home on Wednesday with a heart-shaped box of chocolate and say, "Happy V-day." He knows how I feel about it. What he should do, instead, is come home like he does every other day. He should give me and our son a hug and a kiss and talk with us while we eat dinner. Afterwards, he should play with out son until his bedtime and then spend some quality time with me. He may even say he loves me, but he does that most days.

I don't think people who hate V-day are out to create a vacuum of affection on one day a year. We just choose not to make it special. [Smile]
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
I don't like valentines day. I just want a box of chocolate.

Of course, my hubby has taken my lax attitude and abused it. He's making me go to a (explitive) Golden State Warriors game on Valentine's day.

What the (explitive) is going through that man's (explitive) brain??

My guess is that he was thinking that you don't like Valentine's Day and just want a box of chocolate.
Yes, but I take it she doesn't like the "(expletive} Golden State Warriors" either. [Wink]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Maybe this is the crux: No, I don't think a desire to withhold affection from a romantic partner because you're mad at society - to the point that you're willing to make her unhappy - is reasonable.
Where did I ever say I was advocating withholding affection or that I was mad at society?

I never withhold affection. And I'm not mad at society. I disapprove of the cultural conception of Valentine's day. And I have no idea why you would think that the gifts and all that go along with Valentine's day are the only way to show affection.

What I'm having problem with is the disparity in needing to care about the other person's desires that you seem to be pushing. I don't think that them compromising that includes not doing the Valentine's thing means that the not wanting boyfriend is obviously horribly self-centered.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
:shrug:

I think a lot of these scenarios fall outside of the "reasonable" qualification I outlined above.

The more personal the request (touching, intimacy, etc) the more justification needs to be provided.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
C: That's fine. [Smile] I was picturing this boycott - a rebellion against all things love-related in order to flummox against society expectations. It's too bad, because society couldn't possibly care less and wouldn't notice at all. The sweetheart probably will notice, though, and is the only one affected by the boycott.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Because expressing affection between partners - in whatever way a couple has decided to do it - should be the default. If she really wants it, I think it is unreasonable to deliberately dissapoint her.
And it doesn't matter what he thinks.

---
quote:
a rebellion against all things love-related in order to flummox against society expectations
Why the heck would you think that? That's just bizarre.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
He's thinks that he's opposed to expressing affection? Really? That's something to take a stand on? Yeah - I think if someone refuses to express affection, it's a problem in a relationship.

I don't think gifts are the only way to celebrate Valentine's Day. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Did you hallucinate somewhere that I said gifts were necessary? Maybe the reason you are so opposed to what I'm saying is that you aren't actually reading what I'm saying.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
The way you seem to be saying it, yeah.

I don't agree with what to me seems like a very twisted version of expressing affection i.e. only by doing the Valentine's day stuff, but if that's what you are using for expressing affection, then I know lots of people who are opposed to it.

Of course, I don't think that they love their partners less or are actually less affectionate using a reasonable definition of affection.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I don't think gifts are the only way to celebrate Valentine's Day. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Did you hallucinate somewhere that I said gifts were necessary? Maybe the reason you are so opposed to what I'm saying is that you aren't actually reading what I'm saying.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
I don't know what kind of relationships you are used to, but, for me, expressing affection is the default state of being in a relationship. It doesn't need any sort of occasion to be expressed.

When we're talking about celebrating Valentine's day, I, at least, am talking about the gift-giving and various other special measures that are taken. These are things that the girl is wanting in what I am saying.

So, the case is, the girl wants some sort of special thing to happen (granting the assumption that basic affection is not special in this relationship). The boy does not. From what I am gettign from what you are saying, if they don't do something special, the boy is horribly self-centered.

If you are just talking about displaying basic affection as being something special, I have no way of relating to you.

---

And, again, you may notice that I've managed to maintain a civil tone towards you in this conversation, despite your disrespectful provocation. It's really not that hard. Could I request that you at least attempt the same?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You do not understand what I have been saying if that is your summary. Considering how many times I have explained it and you still don't understand, I don't know what else to do.

If you don't mind expressing affection normally, why the opposition to a day for expressing affection?

That's what I don't get - if someone is willing to do it the rest of the year, why not the rest of the year + one day?
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
That's what I don't get - if someone is willing to do it the rest of the year, why not the rest of the year + one day?
No one ever said anything about not expressing affection. You've introduced that with no reason that I can see. What we've been talking about, doing special things for Valentine's Day, has been perfectly clear to me throughout this entire discussion.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
We have not been talking about the same things. It shouldn't have been clear, because what you've been assuming isn't true and isn't based on anything I said. I've been talking about expressing affection, however a couple decides to do that. It's always special, no matter if it happens every day or every weekend. Declaring V-Day a day to NOT do it at all, because society wants you to, is awfully hard on your sweetheart.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
:advertisement:

SCENE 1

A dark bathroom. A woman enters, sleepy, and approaches the toilet. She starts to sit down---

*SPLASH*

SCENE 2:

The woman flips on the light over the bed. Her husband wakes up.

WOMAN: John, I asked you to put the toilet seat down after you use it.

JOHN: Barb, I told you to stop trying to repress me.

BARB: I'm not repressing you-- why would you think that?

JOHN: You're still doing it-- emotional terrorism. Look, wife, why don't you just look down before you sit down? Why do I have to be bothered to watch out for your hiney?

BARB: (quietly pulls out her Glock): I'm sorry it's come to this.

JOHN: What the---

Barb shoots him in the neck.

Announcer: Avoid death and long, tedious murder trials! Buy the Acme automatic toilet lid closer kit today!

*********************

At this point, this conversation is just absurd.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*laugh* I agree.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
You've taken pains to say that I have trouble with reading comprehension. Perhaps you could explain to me how this:
quote:
Maybe the act of love is not the flowers, but getting her the flowers despite not caring for the holiday.

In other words, no convincing needed. He thinks it is dumb, but he loves her and she doesn't, so he gets her flowers and they make her happy. I think someone has to very unselfish and sweet to think about his partner instead of himself.

Boycotting it without the enthusiastic consent of one's partner or else giving a gift begrudgingly is horribly self-centered.

is about expressing affection as opposed to what it appears to me to be about, i.e. getting her flowers and similar?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Is getting someone flowers considered exceptional? I thought that was an ordinary expression of affection.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
He loves her. He sees how happy she is when he gets her flowers.

He knows she likes V-day. He doesn't. He wants her to be happy. He references the experiences he's had when he's given her flowers. He cross references experiences he's had when he fails to meet her reasonable expectations.

He goes and buys her flowers as an expression of affection. The affection is in 1) the flowers, 2) the flowers on a day special to her, 3) the flowers on a day special to her but perhaps not so special to him.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I think she thinks that getting flowers are a way of showing normal affection, and you think they are a special gift. Is that what is going on?

Please, feel free to both jump on me. Heaven knows with an almost-three-year-old I'm used to it.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Kat, I'm afraid that where we are going wrong here is in our definitions of "normal affection." I don't get flowers often. I don't think I'd want them very often -- they would lose that *specialness* that I do, in fact, think they possess.

"Normal affection" is, of course, something to be negotiated by each couple, but I would venture a guess that bringing home flowers would be considered special by most people. We could take an informal poll here, if you like. [Smile]
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think...I think something can be both normal and special. I mean, I get a thrill whenever I get asked to dinner and a movie for Friday. It doesn't matter that it happens 90% of weekends anyway - I still love it.

Same with flowers, I think. You can buy flowers here for a few dollars from vendors at most metro stops. They are really easy to get, but that doesn't mean they aren't beautiful and sweet every time.

Christine, your explanation makes sense. [Smile]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
Does buying presents, like say jewelry or making plans to go out to an expensive restaurant also fall under the heading of normal affection?

If so or even if not and we're just talking about the flowers, I'll ask again, if the girl expects flowers (or gifts or an expensive night out - also, I'm assuming that these things don't happen on an everyday or very frequent basis, but rather as something special as Christine suggested) for Valentine's day and the boy doesn't want to get her flowers, etc. on Valentine's day, is he always horridly self-centered if he doesn't end up doing so, but instead treats it as any sort of normal day? (And, again, I'm assuming that on a normal day, he demonstrates basic affection towards his girlfriend.)
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Please put the toilet seat down after flushing.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose? I mean, assuming that the purpose of the lid is to mitigate the spread of human waste throughout the bathroom, surely it should be closed before flushing. It can even, optionally, be re-opened after the flush is complete, for subsequent ease of sitting.

As to Valentine's Day, I'm not terribly concerned about it one way or the other.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
mph: He knows I don't want to go see an NBA game (notice, I don't say a "basketball" game. I like Basketball. I don't like NBA.) I don't need anything romantic for VD (an appropriate abreviation for Valentine's Day) but he could at least *not* drag me somewhere I don't want to go for the day.

Now I could have said "Under no circumstances will I go to see the (explitive) Golden State Warriors" but he was just so excited about it I had to give in. So I comprimized and came here to complain to my friends. I know it's a stereotypical thing to do. I'm fine with that.

But just see if he gets anything on "Steak and BJ(*) Day". (March 14th. Valentines for Guys)

Pix

(*) Black Jack.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
is he always horridly self-centered if he doesn't end up doing so, but instead treats it as any sort of normal day?
If the desire is reasonable as defined in their specific, communicated understanding of the word, yep. Pretty selfish.

EDIT: Or at least, "thoughtless." Which is like, involuntarily selfish.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
March 14th is pi day!
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Other than a corsage for prom I think the only time I have received flowers from a romantic partner was the morning John was born and Bob brought me flowers from the hospital gift shop.

So I'm going to come down on the "special occaision" rather than "normal affection" end of the flower spectrum.

Oh, and we bought a rosebush on Mother's Day last year.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
assuming that the purpose of the lid is to mitigate the spread of human waste throughout the bathroom
While that purpose always comes up in arguments on the topic, it seems that is generally not the reason behind those who feel most strongly that the seat should be down.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
is he always horridly self-centered if he doesn't end up doing so, but instead treats it as any sort of normal day?
If it's important to her and he knows it and he still doesn't? Yes, it's self-centered.

*shrug* Maybe her gift to him is to not mind and not express how sad she is because of it. For her sake, I sure hope he doesn't always place himself before her in his list of priorities.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
assuming that the purpose of the lid is to mitigate the spread of human waste throughout the bathroom
What? Oh, I get it. I said lid when I meant "seat."

Yeah, twinky. Whatever.

Pix:

What's March 14th? I'm a guy. I had no idea we had a holiday then. I grew up in a family of guys, and we never celebrated March 14 as anything but Death-of-Caesar Eve.

Steak's appropriate, I guess...but they stabbed him. They didn't use blackjacks on him. Knives, lady. Long, sharp knives.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Now I could have said "Under no circumstances will I go to see the (explitive) Golden State Warriors" but he was just so excited about it I had to give in.
As I udnerstand it under what, at least Scott, is still saying, that would have made you horridly selfish.

I still don't understand why.

---
quote:
If the desire is reasonable as defined in their specific, communicated understanding of the word, yep.
I'm not sure what happens to the equally or even more reasonable desire not to do this. Why is that ignorable?
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
If it's important to her and he knows it and he still doesn't? Yes, it's self-centered.
Even though it is important for him not to do it and she knows it?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I imagine what often happens is that both are really sefish about it. Maybe those kinds of people attract each other.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
But just see if he gets anything on "Steak and BJ(*) Day". (March 14th. Valentines for Guys)

*laughs for reasons she's not going to disclose*
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Scott: It's not really "Black Jack" Please don't make me spell it out. It might (would) offend someone.

I mean, yeah, I heard about it on the radio and thought it was a great idea. Valentine's for Guys. A day for the two things guys love most. I could make my hubby really happy... But he's making me go see the (explitive) Golden State Warriors. *grr* There is no need for reciprocation... unless I make him take me to see a chick flick. (A lesbian chick flick if there are any good ones out right now.)
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
I imagine what often happens is that both are really sefish about it. Maybe those kinds of people attract each other.
What the heck are you talking about?

If two people have opposing views on something like Valentines day, they most both be really selfish? That doesn't make any sense to me.

To me, in a situation where one partner desires something and the other desires not something, the way to handle that is to compromise. And if that compromise ends up with that thing not being done, I don't think that this means that the not wanting partner is horridly self-centered.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
If it was a compromise, then it was done with the cooperation with the other partner. Like I said before. Did you skip over that qualification?

Squicky, I really think you would disagree with me less if you read all of my posts.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
There's a whole world of difference between cooperation and what you said, which made "the enthusiastic consent of one's partner" the requirement for non-self-centeredness.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You prefer begrudging compromise where someone just stops fighting because they see it isn't doing any good?

No, there isn't a huge difference. Honestly, I think you'd be happier if you took off the distortion glasses that puts the narrowest, worst possible spin on my posts for you. You'll be happier, and you'll be closer to reality if you start with an assumption of good faith.
 
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
KQ? Are you hanging out on my stitching boards? [Smile]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
*shrug* Maybe her gift to him is to not mind and not express how sad she is because of it. For her sake, I sure hope he doesn't always place himself before her in his list of priorities.
See, this is the thing I really don't get. It seems perfectly okay for you for her to put herself ahead on him by having him do things that he doesn't want to do, but the opposite but, to me, equal situation is horridly self-centered. I don't see what the enormous difference between these two are that you seem to be working from.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I know you don't understand. I don't know what else I can do about that beyond what I've done already. Maybe if you go back and reread without the assumption that I must be wrong in there somewhere you'll understand.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
Pix Said:
Now I could have said "Under no circumstances will I go to see the (explitive) Golden State Warriors" but he was just so excited about it I had to give in.

Quoth Squicky:

As I udnerstand it under what, at least Scott, is still saying, that would have made you horridly selfish.

Nah. I'd never use the word horridly.

Nor would I presume to judge what is "reasonable" within Pix and her husband's relationship.

Whether or not she is being selfish is up to them. Ultimately judgements of this type are best left to the couples themselves. Outsiders like us, the most effective thing we can do is talk hypothetical people, and hypothetical situations.

I'll judge hypothetical people all day long. With impunity.

Real people like Pix and her beau? Not a chance. It would be a deeply stupid thing for me to do. Almost as stupid as insinuating that I *would* judge them...

Really, I think the main problem here is one of 'reasonableness.'
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Linky
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
You prefer begrudging compromise where someone just stops fighting because they see it isn't doing any good?
No, of course not. I prefer a compromise where the girl realizes that although she continues to want to do X, doing so puts them in conflict with her boyfriends equally valid desire not to do X. Thus, some accomodation needs to be made. And this may include her accepting some disappointment because they don't do what she wants, but that it is better for them in the long run or more fair or maybe it is just his turn.

Her consent could hardly be said to be enthusiastic, but this is, to me, healthier than saying "I didn't get to do what I wanted. Therefore you are selfish."
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
MPH: I get to be the little girl.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
mph: That picture is adorable
 
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
MPH: I get to be the little girl.

Where's that Out of Context thread when you need it? LOL
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Squicky, think whatever you want. It's clear to everyone else what I meant. I can only explain slowly and in small words so many times.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
PIX:

quote:
It's not really "Black Jack" Please don't make me spell it out. It might (would) offend someone.

I'm offended just by all the ways I could be offended.

There are tons.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
That's horrible.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
KQ? Are you hanging out on my stitching boards? [Smile]

No... [Confused]
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
It's clear to everyone else what I meant.
I'm willing to bet quite a lot of money that this is not true.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Scott: You'll always be an adorable little girl to me.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
That's horrible.
Not as horrible as the fact of two space pirates about to blow up the cargo airlock in order to get inside and kill, maim, and steal stuff.

And no one's shooting at them yet.

Now that's horrible.

I don't know why you're so insensitive, porter.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Again, I urge you to read my posts without the dirt-colored glasses. You'll be so much happier and you'll have a truer look at reality.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Um, good point, Scott.

I'll, uh, get to work on that right now.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
So, you have if a guy doesn't want to do Valentine's, his girlfriend does, they talk about it and compromise, which involves them not doing it and the girlfriend being disappointed by this, then the guy is not necessarily self-centered?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That depends - what else does it involve? Do all their compromises end up with her being dissapointed? Is he deeply, religiously opposed or he is just lazy? Does he often withold affection?
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Tiffany got her big ticket presents for her birthday Feb 5th. For VD, she gets a sweet poem of my own composition and a coupon that allows her to get her hair done at that $80 hair salon place she wants to go to.

My wallet has taken a SEVERE beating and its only the 2nd month of the year [Frown]

She better leave me alone until our 1 year wedding anniversary in July, that's all I gotta say.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
That's not much of a compromise...

Dude, no way.

If all the rest of us guys have to suffer through Valentines Day, so does Mr. Hypothetical. Man doesn't pick up his lady love something, he deserves to be stung to death by fire ants. That's my final word.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
That depends - what else does it involve? Do all their compromises end up with her being dissapointed? Is he deeply, religiously opposed or he is just lazy? Does he often withold affection?
It's a simple yes or no question. You've basically said yes.

The bizarre withhold affection thing popped up, though. I feel like there's a story there.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
As you have described the situation, then no - because it's not a compromise. She's disspointed, and...that's it. She's dissapointed, and he gets to do nothing for her.

Sucks to be her.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Read it again. I didn't describe the entire compromise, just the parts salient to your earlier statement:
quote:
Boycotting it without the enthusiastic consent of one's partner or else giving a gift begrudgingly is horribly self-centered.
Bascially, he was boycotting it without the enthusiastic consent of his partner, but as the result of, as I said a compromise that, as I said
quote:
may include her accepting some disappointment because they don't do what she wants, but that it is better for them in the long run or more fair or maybe it is just his turn.

 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
To further explicate, I've set the bar pretty dang low. If he is pissily refusing to step over it because his wacked-up principles include not making his sweetheart feel loved when she wants it, and then extracts a concession from her that she isn't happy about, then he is being very selfish.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Squicky, you are welcome to work out whatever compromise you want. Don't take my assessment of someone who takes it his frustration at card companies out on his sweetheart personally. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the hypothetical person.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
I'll ask you again to at least try to keep a civil tone. One might also expect that if you ask for a certain consideration, you would extend that to others.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
If you feel you cannot continue the conversation, I completely understand.
 
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
I'm going to stay out of the arguement here, but try to at least state my views on V-Day. The same goes for most holidays for me. A holiday is meaningless, unless it is Mother's or Father's day. Those are the only two that I celebrate, even though I only go home for Father's day.

My mom and I don't have much in common for activities, so i take her out to dinner when I go home for a week or two arounf Father's day. My treat.

For Father's day I take dad to the race and have a blast. This also means that the rest of the family moves Father's day up a couple days so that we can all be together, but it usually works out really well doing this.

Would I see it differently if I had someone? Probably not. Would I show any more affection for a S.O. just because of that day? Why? If I love someone so much as a life partner, I should not make one single day more important than the rest. Every day is important.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
Maybe the act of love is not the flowers, but getting her the flowers despite not caring for the holiday.

In other words, no convincing needed. He thinks it is dumb, but he loves her and she doesn't, so he gets her flowers and they make her happy. I think someone has to very unselfish and sweet to think about his partner instead of himself.

Boycotting it without the enthusiastic consent of one's partner or else giving a gift begrudgingly is horribly self-centered.

I still stand by this, which I just realized what THREE PAGES AGO. OH MY STARS. This has so not been worth it. Anyway.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
Would I show any more affection for a S.O. just because of that day? Why? If I love someone so much as a life partner, I should not make one single day more important than the rest. Every day is important.
Maybe because that day is more important to her than the rest.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
From the recent Missionary thread:

quote:
Mr. Squicky said:

I don't think I've ever taken cheap little shots at anyone here, ever and I'd ask if you are going to accuse me of this that you present some sort of evidence.

Then in this thread, he said:

quote:
The bizarre withhold affection thing popped up, though. I feel like there's a story there.
I'm having a hard time reconciling these statements.

I'd love to have a Hatrack without Squick and Kat feeling the need to nip each other's noses.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
You are? Really?

That's a cheap shot to you?

Man, I wish I was popular.

---

When someone keeps on bringing up a non-sequitor, it puzzles me. That's all I was expressing. I don't even see how that could be saeen as an attack.
 
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
I can agree with you there mph. However, as a comprimise I would ask that I at least not have to make some big show of it. Sounds like I am backing out of what I said, but I do know what a comprimise is.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
She better leave me alone
I don't think that's REALLY what you want, BB...
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
I want you and kat to stop scratching at each other.

The two of you need to come to grips with the way that your behavior is damaging the community. Any time the two of you are together in the same thread, you fight. Every. Freaking. Time.

That ain't normal.

Have a taquito, and a time out.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
What Scott said. I went away a few hours ago, and I came back and said, wow, two more pages, what are people talking about? I was about to throw a little "stop fighting" tantrum, but it looks like things have chilled for the past 20 minutes or so.

If not, we might have to start in on clementines again here. Or taquitos, which are also yummy, and not seasonal.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I want a taquito. I want a taquito NOW. With ketchup and sour cream to dip it in.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
What Uprooted said.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Dang it KQ.. Now I want a taquito... with sour cream.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Would I show any more affection for a S.O. just because of that day? Why? If I love someone so much as a life partner, I should not make one single day more important than the rest. Every day is important.
Maybe because that day is more important to her than the rest.
Does that mean you also wouldn't celebrate her birthday? Or your anniversary?

-pH
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
What? How in the world did you pull that out of my post? I think you've severely misunderstood my post.

I celebrate VDay with my wife.

I suggested a reason to treat VDay differently than any other day -- because perhaps his (hypothetical) honey doesn't view it as just any other day.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
No, I was referring to the original quote and got lazy, sorry. [Smile] I just didn't want to go all the way back and find it. [Group Hug]

-pH
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Scott R, just warning you, you may want to run now. My husband's not going to be happy when he finds out that you are the one that started my taquito craving.
 
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
Ahhhh... Valentine's Day... And love is in the air... ; )

Who's bringing the taquitos??!! Can we shape them into hearts???
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:
She better leave me alone
I don't think that's REALLY what you want, BB...
LOL, let me rephrase,

"She better leave my wallet alone etc..."

Believe me I had to learn to discipline my "habit of making impulsive buying decisions," when I got married. Now I have promptly learned to set aside all that money and put it in the, "Spoil my Spouse" fund.

Its a step in the right direction, but its not the end ideal [Wink]
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Heart-shaped taquitos? Difficult. I did, however, make heart-shaped eggplant parmesan once. (It was for a Break-The-Fast with a V-day theme where we were all supposed to bring foods that were either pink, red, or heart-shaped in some way. I drew main dish-- I think everyone was glad that the two of us who drew main dish were the ones who could cook-- and so I brought that because it was fun, yummy, vegetarian, and both heart-shaped and red-- the sauce was red, anyway.)
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I want heart-shaped eggplant parmesan!

Okay--I want any kind of eggplant parmesan. However, I just had dinner, so I will supress the urge to run down to my local pizzeria w/ the yummy eggplant parmesan.
 
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
Taquitos are sort of like taco's but they're the little rolled up ones, right? Or am I way off?
 
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
KQ? Are you hanging out on my stitching boards? [Smile]

No... [Confused]
On a couple of the sttiching boards I hang out on, we have a running... um... slang with regard to steak. And it fits rather well with the other half.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cmc:
Taquitos are sort of like taco's but they're the little rolled up ones, right?

Pretty much. But they're usually deep fried.
Link
 
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
Yep - thanks rivka... That's what I was thinking of.

What if they were made from scratch?? Then you could do the heart shape... then throw some salsa with a little bit of sour cream in the middle of the heart... Or am I getting ahead of myself? : )
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Wouldn't trying to bend them into a shape squeeze out most of the filling?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
You're right, Scott. I'm sorry. I swear, I'm going to put an "Ignore Squicky" post-it on my computer. Talking to him isn't good for Hatrack.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
Scott R, just warning you, you may want to run now. My husband's not going to be happy when he finds out that you are the one that started my taquito craving.
I ain't a-skeered of him.
 
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
 
I like the way we're doing Valentine's Day. Because neither of us is really into holidays, we figure we'll just go out to dinner. After all, we go out to dinner on normal days.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Wouldn't trying to bend them into a shape squeeze out most of the filling?

Yes. Also, they are prone to breakage as it is, WITHOUT trying to bend them. And if they break, you're screwed, because they don't hold together and don't fry well.

Now, heart-shaped quesedillas are entirely do-able. [Smile]
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:
Originally posted by Goody Scrivener:
KQ? Are you hanging out on my stitching boards? [Smile]

No... [Confused]
On a couple of the sttiching boards I hang out on, we have a running... um... slang with regard to steak. And it fits rather well with the other half.
Ah. No, I was laughing because we're having steak for dinner tomorrow and, well. None of anyone's business.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Uprooted:
I want heart-shaped eggplant parmesan!

Okay--I want any kind of eggplant parmesan. However, I just had dinner, so I will supress the urge to run down to my local pizzeria w/ the yummy eggplant parmesan.

I know. And I make AWESOME eggplant parmesan, too. [Cool]
 
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
 
I like the quesedilla idea... I think maybe once I have kids or something this is a holiday I could get more into... Then again, I think with kids around (even my neices and nephews) EVERY holiday is more fun... ; )
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Happy Valentine's Day.

[Smile]
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
My Valentine's Day gift was a grand success, and it only cost about $5.

I also blatently stole the idea from a friend. I'm a sharing guy, so I figured I'd upload it to this P2P network so that others can benefit from it next year:

I bought a bag of Hershey's Kisses. I wrapped up a bunch of little bunches of them (5 or 6) in tissue paper with a ribbon, and attached a note on each one which was a rememberence of something we've shared together. Some were blatantly romantic, but most weren't. Last night after she went to bed, I hid them throughout the house.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Awww . . . [Smile]
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, that is really sweet. [Smile]
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Nope. They're semi-sweet kisses. [Wink]
 
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
My Valentine got a Nintendo DS. I got a damn nice silk tie.

When I get off work...picnic time! Thank you, Seattle, for recently having bearable weather!

Edited to point out: Ties are actually not a brand-X gift for me. I love ties, because I really like wearing suits, but because I have fewer and fewer occasions to wear them these days, I always stop myself from spending the ridiculous amounts of money that nice ties and decent suits costs.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
mph, for someone who grumps about Valentine's day, you sure know how to do it right! ;-)

ElJay, fun article.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It's because he's very sweet and unselfish.

[Big Grin]
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
[Frown]

It is proved again that I am the selfish one in the relationship. I don't really give a hoot about Valentine's Day, kept forgetting that it was coming (even though I was participating in this thread!), and when I finally remembered and thought of a cool gift it was too late to get it in time. And Bob hasn't been able to leave the house for a week because of minor surgery, so I told him all I wanted for Valentine's Day was a big smooch and I'd give him the same.

And he surprised me this morning with a chocolate pecan carmel apple and Trauma Center: Second Opinion for the Wii, which he had John's nanny pick up on her way home on Monday and bring in yesterday.

Fortunately, he doesn't seem to care that I suck at the whole "remembering to get gifts on time" thing, so we're all happy.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Crap. Now I don't know what to do next year. [Grumble]
 
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
i got a valentine!

My daddy sent me a vase with red tulips, a big Mickey Mouse balloon, and a stuffed bear.

*feeling loved* [Smile]
 
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
 
My mommy bought me shoes and a card for valentine's day. My mom thinks I'm handsome! [Grumble]
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Leo, that's adorable. [Smile]
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I've been thinking a lot about katharina and Squicky's argument. While it did get out of hand, the principles do apply to Jon Boy and me (I like V-Day and think it's fun to have a day for romance; Jon Boy feels like it's a fake holiday where people are just expected to spend money in order to not get in trouble with their honey).

The conclusion I've come to in the past two days is that I think katharina is right on this one (mostly). I think in a relationship, it's important to love your significant other as much as you know how to, and further, to love them in the ways that make them feel loved. This goes back to the Five Love Languages. But in a healthy relationship, the lovin' goes both ways. If Valentine's Day observations make your honey feel loved, who are you to withhold that from him/her? Hopefully your sweetheart would reciprocate by loving you in the ways you want to be loved too.

Obviously, if Valentine's Day (or any other way of expressing love) makes you really uncomfortable for a good reason, you should talk to your SO about it and come up with other ways you can express your love. Thinking the holiday is cheap and commercial doesn't count as a good reason in my book, though.

The same principle goes for sex. If one partner thinks something is a turn on, the other partner would do well to do it at least sometimes, even if he or she gets nothing out of it. If both partners give freely most of the time, neither will feel unloved.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
If Valentine's Day observations make your honey feel loved, who are you to withhold that from him/her?
Again, what about the other side? If you requiring them to celebrate a holiday that they have a serious problem with makes them feel unloved or not respected, who are you to do this to them?
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
If you requiring them to celebrate a holiday that they have a serious problem with makes them feel unloved or not respected...

I have a hard time believing that many people feel so strongly about a non-action -- that is, the non-celebration of a particular holiday -- that they would feel unloved if their significant other says "Can we please celebrate it? I really like it."
 
Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
Please spare a thought for my lovely fiance, who instead of spending this Valentine's Day with me is still stuck at work at gone 7pm. We weren't going to do anything special, just have dinner here and sort out wedding stuff, but I am rather missing him. It's a good thing we celebrated "proposal day" yesterday (he proposed a year ago). I like that as an alternative to v-day - you don't have to spend twice as much if you want to eat out, for a start!
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
twinky,
It's not a matter of the loved one saying "Can we celebrate this." but rather dismissing your feelings as to not wanting to celebrate it ("Thinking the holiday is cheap and commercial doesn't count as a good reason in my book, though.") and seeing you as self-centered if you don't do what they want that would make me feel unloved.

[ February 14, 2007, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I can easily see people -- let's be honest, men, because men are the ones who are bombarded with ads about how special those diamond earrings will make their sweetheart feel -- feeling like this holiday is all about manipulating and coercing them into buying into some supermarket magazine idea of what's romantic. If that's the way they feel, I can easily see them thinking their feelings don't matter in the relationship if the response is "But I really like it."

Added: With the expectation that that means that they have to celebrate it anyway, every year, because their loved one thinks their reasons don't cut it.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
I think it's more than that. It's not just that the only reason given is "I really like it." but also "Your feelings about this are silly and unreasonable and I'm going to disregard them."

edit: Curses. ElJay edited to agree with me. Now I look sillier.
 
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
I think MrSquicky and katharina are arguing the same point but they just happen to be on opposite sides when it comes to Valentine's Day. It seems to me that you're both saying that it's unreasonable NOT to compromise.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I was trying to imply that while using the verbage that was already on the table. [Smile]

Added: Ha-ha. [Wink]
 
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Last night I managed to swing by Cafe Rio, buy Tiffany and myself dinner, pick her up, AND get her in the apartment before she even knew I had bought it. [Big Grin] We had a semi valentines day celebration last night because tonight we are both swamped. But Ill still get her a flower, write her a poem, and with alittle luck finish the lyrics to the song I wrote for her on the guitar. I've had the music down for weeks, but its so hard to come up with lyrics that I can remember and actually like.

Not to mention I can't decide if I like the song better with or without distortion.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
"Your feelings about this are silly and unreasonable and I'm going to disregard them."

But the feelings aren't being disregarded. First, it's not as though She Who Must Be Obeyed is laying down the law from On High, here. Second, if the guy does wind up doing something for the girl he's dating, even if he'd rather not do anything, in a loving relationship the girl will appreciate the special effort he went to to make her happy.

quote:
Originally posted by ElJay:
...their loved one thinks their reasons don't cut it.

That isn't necessarily implied by asking that the holiday be celebrated against the other person's preferences, though. Squick seems to be taking that as a given, which I think is the source of the debate.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Honestly, doesen't this thinking:
quote:
Thinking the holiday is cheap and commercial doesn't count as a good reason in my book, though.
bother people? The idea that you can judge the validity of your partner's feelings and blithely dismiss them because you want them to do something that will make you feel good is at the heart of what I'm saying. I think the obligation to do something that your partner likes is important, but is offset by the partner at least acknowledging that you have valid feelings to the contrary. I don't think that "If you love me, you'll do this." outweighs "If you love me, you won't make me do this, or at the very least not dismiss my desire not to do this out of hand."

But it looks like many people have no problem accepting this.

edit: That comment disregards that this is even a matter to compromise on. The one side is automatically labelled unreasonable.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
That isn't necessarily implied by asking that the holiday be celebrated against the other person's preferences, though.
It's not that I'm taking that as a given. It's what is being said to me.

If you don't do Valentine's day and your partner doesn't enthusiastically consent to this, then you are labeled horridly self-centered.

Your reasons for not wanting to do this, valid though they may seem to you, are unworthy of consideration.

People are only considering this from their angle, from the perspective that "I want to do this." If I wasn't presenting the other side, it would pretty much be absent from this thread.
 
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
All else being equal, coaxing the inactive into action is less hurtful than coaxing the active into inaction. This applies to Valentine's Day and all other aspects of the relationship.

Example:

Radiohead is playing in your town. You really, really want to go, but your sig. other can't stand them. None of your friends can go that night. I think if your sig. other refused to go, that would be more hurtful to you than going would be to them.

Not a perfect analogy, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say here.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
All else being equal, coaxing the inactive into action is less hurtful than coaxing the active into inaction.
Does this apply to my physical contact or sex examples? Because other people have already said that they don't.

This might work if, in my perspective, this rule was actually applied globally. But it doesn't seem to be so to me. People keeping on throwing qualifications on, which often seem to me to boil down to "It works whichever way I want it to. When I want to do something, doing something is more important. When I don't, avoiding the intrusion is most important."

edit: Also, I don't agree with your example. In that situation, I would go alone and not inflict 3 huors of something I know she wouldn't enjoy on my significant other.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
If I was the Radiohead fan in that example, I'd just go alone.

-------

quote:
I don't think that "If you love me, you'll do this." outweighs "If you love me, you won't make me do this, or at the very least not dismiss my desire not to do this out of hand."
But "I don't like Valentine's Day because I think it's cheap and commercial" is not the same as "If you love me, you won't make me celebrate it." If the anti-Valentine's Day feelings were very strong -- like, the guy organized a boycott of Hallmark or something -- then maybe that would be a valid comparison.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by twinky:
That isn't necessarily implied by asking that the holiday be celebrated against the other person's preferences, though. Squick seems to be taking that as a given, which I think is the source of the debate.

Actually, I was reacting there to Brinestone's post that says, basically, that Jon Boy's reasons for not liking Valentine's Day don't cut it.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Presumably, she feels that Jon Boy's antipathy toward Valentine's Day is not strong enough that celebrating it in spite of his antipathy would cause him significant emotional distress.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Sounds awfully self-centered to me.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That has moved from a hypothetical example to a specific poster. ElJay, I think you're out of line. That isn't cool.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
If the anti-Valentine's Day feelings were very strong -- like, the guy organized a boycott of Hallmark or something -- then maybe that would be a valid comparison.
I don't accept that, but I do agree with the underlying premise.

I don't accept it because you are assuming that the desire for people to celebrate Valentine's day is on the level of a guy organizing a boycott of Hallmark. I don't think it is generally anywhere near that strong. If you get to judge my feelings as being weak, can I say that people largely attach importance to Valentine's day because the commercial interests that profit from it tell them to. If I'm doing romantic stuff throughout the year and demonstrating that I love the other person, can you really support the idea that I'm not doing this because I don't love them.

I agree with the underlying assumption, however, that this is a matter for compromise in which the relative strength of people's feelings on the matter are important. I just disagree with your relative weighing.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
If you get to judge my feelings as being weak, can I say that people largely attach importance to Valentine's day because the commercial interests that profit from it tell them to.
Sounds like you're dismissing the feelings of those who want to celebrate V-Day as shallow and not worth considering.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ElJay:
Sounds awfully self-centered to me.

I assume they discussed it. [Added: What I mean is that in place of "presumably, she feels," I should have said "presumably, they've decided."]

quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
I agree with the underlying assumption, however, that this is a matter for compromise in which the relative strength of people's feelings on the matter are important. I just disagree with your relative weighing.

That's fair enough. I used hyperbolic language deliberately to make the overall sentiment clear -- I probably should have said I was doing that.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
kat, I was reacting to twinky's presumptive statement, not the details of Jon Boy & Brinestone's actual situation, which we obviously don't know.

Brinestone, my apologies if that wasn't clear.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
I assume they discussed it.
Brinestone wasn't just talking about Jon Boy there, with whom she may have discussed this, but about anyone who would fit her generalized you. She was, for example, talking about me and telling me that one of my reasons was invalid.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
[Smile] I got a dozen roses, chocolates, a little heater for the house, a bike rack bag thingy for my bike so that I can carry things with me, a stuffed lion, and some other mystery surprise gift that he couldn't pick up in time because the store didn't open until noon.

I don't know what kind of store opens until noon, but he's very insistent that the surprise element is important. So I think he's going to get that tomorrow.

I gave him homemade gel candles with flowers and hearts and things in them that I almost burned my fingers off making. [Razz]

So hooray for Valentine's Day. Hugs all around.

-pH
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, that makes sense. [Smile] Okay.

In the hypothetical situation where both feelings are sincere and strong, I think...that since it is possible to make guestures of love that do not involve commercial transactions (MPH's excellent example, for one), that all other things being equal, the person who does not want to celebrate the holiday can come up with something to make the person to whom the holiday is quite important feel heeded and loved. The person to whom the holiday is important can also come up with the appreciation and gratitude for the effort made, and not lament the lack of a flowers and candy routine.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Sounds like you're dismissing the feelings of those who want to celebrate V-Day as shallow and not worth considering.
If you care about someone, I don't believe that their actual feelings are ever not worth considering.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Your text elsewhere belies that.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Here's a really good reason, in my opinion, for Valentine's Day:

Sometimes, you and your SO have completely conflicting schedules. Valentine's Day makes it easier to schedule a time for you to spend with one another because you know in advance that it's going to be there, and you know that your efforts will be coordinated so that one of you doesn't leave early from work while the other goes in to work early.

-pH
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
the person who does not want to celebrate the holiday can come up with something to make the person to whom the holiday is quite important feel heeded and loved.
Again, this attitude confuses/disturbs me. I always try to make my girlfriend feel heeded and loved. To me, that's the ground state of our relationship. I don't understand a relationship in which it wouldn't be.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Non sequitur much?
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
pH,
That sounds really great except that it works for every other single day of the year.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
pH,
That sounds really great except that it works for every other single day of the year.

It doesn't really. There are plenty of very hard-working people who need to know in advance that X day is a day we will spend together. Yes, you can pick any day far in advance, I suppose. But why should it be a bad thing for it to be Valentine's Day?

-pH
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
It's not, but it is a bad thing for it to must be Valentine's Day.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
kat,
Because apparently it is my fault for not backing down when you act nasty, I'm not going to respond with my normal attempting to get you to justify your remarks. I don't, however, have a problem responding to you if you can treat me respectfully and I'll again ask you to do so, if not for me, then for the sake of Hatrack.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Again, Valentine's Day is a convenient, set day on which you can pretty much assume you're going to spend time together. Just like his birthday, my birthday, our anniversary, Halloween, and my graduation. I mean, are you opposed to the celebration of birthdays and anniversaries?

-pH
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Squicky, I would be estastic if you never responded to me.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
Again, Valentine's Day is a convenient, set day on which you can pretty much assume you're going to spend time together.
There have been people on this very thread who have posted about how it is not a convenient day for them and that they aren't going to be able to do things today.

---

Do you think I have a problem with birthdays and the like? If so, why do you think this? If not, why are you asking me if I do?
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
Again, Valentine's Day is a convenient, set day on which you can pretty much assume you're going to spend time together.
There have been people on this very thread who have posted about how it is not a convenient day for them and that they aren't going to be able to do things today.
Well, FOR US, it's a great, convenient day. But we celebrate everything. We gave each other gifts for Halloween. And you didn't answer me...are you against celebrating birthdays and anniversaries?

-pH
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Of course not. I don't think you understand my reasons for disliking much of the common cultural aspect of Valentine's Day.

I edited above to ask you why you think that I would, but I did it too late. I'm editing here to ask you to explain why you think that. Maybe I can figure out where the misunderstanding crept in if you explain.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I never said that I did. Actually, I'll admit that I honestly do not understand why you detest Valentine's Day so much.

The reason I ask is that you seem to think that Valentine's obligates one to do special things that you think should be done regardless of a certain day. In that case, why celebrate an anniversary or a birthday? Those are certain days in which special treatment is often expected.

-pH
 
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
I strongly sympathize with Squicky on this, even though apparently no one else does.

I've spent the last couple of weeks rather stressed out because Valentine's Day was coming. I never know what to get or do, but obviously I have to do something because otherwise I'll look like an selfish, insensitive jerk.

But my objection is not just that it's a tacky, commercialized holiday. My objection is that, to me, it's not a holiday about love. It's about pressure. "If you really love someone, you'll do x." And that makes me resentful, because I don't think anyone has the right to tell me how or when to express my love.

I think that at some point the stress, resentment, and other objections have got to outweigh whatever extra love is shown on Valentine's Day. At some point it must no longer be worth it. But so far it seems that everyone has just told Squick that it's always worth it, that he should just suck it up and celebrate the holiday anyway, no matter how he feels. And I just can't agree with that.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
*cough*

I've been arguing on y'all's side, here, ya know?
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
The distinction appears to be the significant other's desires versus what are perceived as society's expectations.

If I happen to celebrate Valentine's Day in a given year, it's because the person I'm with likes it and wants to celebrate it, not because of anyone else's ("society's") expectations. My antipathy toward Valentine's Day isn't strong enough to merit asking that we not celebrate it -- at least, not at this point. That might change.

I'm more into random acts of affection, anyway.

Added:

I also think you've mischaracterized the debate somewhat.

quote:
Originally posted by Jon Boy:
But so far it seems that everyone has just told Squick that it's always worth it, that he should just suck it up and celebrate the holiday anyway, no matter how he feels.

What I, at least, have suggested is that people should talk about whether or not they want to celebrate Valentine's Day (and birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, Pi Day, whatever) with their partners, and come to a consensus, rather than just saying "I don't like Valentine's Day, so we aren't going to celebrate it."
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I have to admit that Jon Boy is making sense, even though I haven't seen one post of Squicky's that really made me want to change my mind. I think the reason for that is that Squicky opposes V-Day on principle, whereas it's a stressful thing for Jon Boy. So, it's insensitive of me to expect Jon Boy to celebrate when it makes him so miserable, but it isn't insensitive of theoretical girl who likes V-Day to expect her theoretical boyfriend to celebrate it even though he thinks it's silly and pointless.

I don't know if that made any sense. Basically, my opinion is that the person with the stronger feelings about any given topic is the one who should "win" the argument about the topic. In the case of V-Day, "It makes me feel loved" trumps "It's silly and pointless" but loses to "It makes me feel miserable."
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
quote:
Basically, my opinion is that the person with the stronger feelings about any given topic is the one who should "win" the argument about the topic.
I agree with this to a point, and that point is when one person in a relationship has stronger feelings about everything. I've seen relationships where one person is pretty laid back and the other is pretty intense. I don't think that means that the intense one should always get their way, because they have stronger feelings about everything. There has to be an awareness of rough equity, where each side is compromising sometimes, even if it means one party ends up not getting what they want on something they do feel more strongly about, because they've gotten what they wanted in the last four compromises running.
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
Fair enough. I guess that scenario didn't occur to me because Jon Boy and I are pretty equally laid back, just about different things, but I can see that happening.
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I've been on both sides of it, actually. I've been in a lot of relationships. [Wink] It can be an interesting thing to try to balance, especially if the parties aren't equally aware of when it's happening. I've also observed it in others, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. To my biased eyes, of course.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Valentine's Day. Bah! Humbug! If I could work my will, every idiot who goes about with "Happy Valentine's Day" on her lips should be boiled with her own chocolate, and buried with a dozen roses through her heart. She should!

(Not that I'm bitter, or anything. [Grumble] )
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Have some black hair dye and a white studded belt! [Razz]

-pH
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
What?
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
She's saying that you = teh emo.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Not emo. Grouchy. There's a huge difference.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/valentines_day.jpg
 
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Happy St. Valentine's Day, Hatrack!
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/valentines_day.jpg

[ROFL]
 
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Tony almost bought me half a house for Valentine's Day.

Well, half a mortgage.

But our offer wasn't accepted.

(If it was, guess what Tony's present from me would have been....?)

**

I suspect Valentine's Day hasn't quite reached the level here that it has in the US yet (though I suspect it's on the way). But it's not abnormal not to do anything here. At least in my view.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
HAPPY VALENTINES DAY!

I want the chocolate, Verily.

Also, I had a really nice V-day.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I had a great day. [Smile] I made dinner, got flowers, gave Matt a movie (Upside: I picked a movie he would love. Downside: He loves it so much he already had it. [Razz] ), and we watched one of the few romantic comedies we both love - Keeping the Faith.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I am so glad that I don't have to worry about VDay for another ~360 days.

Although I think that next time, I'm going to try to steal somebody's briliant idea again. That worked much better than the crap I can come up with on my own.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
"It makes me feel loved" trumps "It's silly and pointless" but loses to "It makes me feel miserable."
Again, you are only looking at this from the point of view you want to see it from. Doing the expected gifts, flowers, etc. are not the only way to only way to make people feel loved, nor is Valentine's the only day that these can be done.

Also, I think a relationship where you feel you get to decide how important or valid another person's feelings are about something is...less than optimal.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
No one is saying that Valentine's Day is the only day on which such things could/should be done.

-pH
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
quote:
Again, you are only looking at this from the point of view you want to see it from.
The same thing could be said about you, Squicky. It is more true of you than of anyone else.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Then how does "This makes me feel loved." far outweigh the problems that people have with it?
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Have you never done anything you had an issue with because you knew it would make your significant other feel loved?

-pH
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
No, never. I'm a terrible, terrible person.

---

edit:
What is it about doing these particular things on this particular day that makes it so overridingly important?

I can do other things on this day. I could do these things on other days. It'll make you feel loved plus you get the it's not negative for me. If you care about my feelings, shouldn't that at least be on the table?
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'm not saying you're a terrible person. I'm saying that everyone has probably done things they've had an issue with to make his/her partner feel loved. Why should this Valentine's Day thing be any different?

-pH
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Let me reflect that back.

Have you never forgone something that you desired because your partner had a problem with it? What should this Valentine's Day thing be any different?

edit: Let me reflect it another way. It will make me feel loved if you respect my opinion on this Valentine's day thing and decide not to do it. How is me giving you things making you feel loved outweighing you respecting my feelings making me feel loved?
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I really don't see why this is such a sticking point for you or why you're getting so hostile about it.

-pH
 
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
"Gift of the Magi," anyone?
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
I'm not getting hostile. Or at least I don't feel hostile.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with people who have different desires compromising on this with a whole range of outcomes, many of which will include celebrating Valentine's. What I do have a problem with is the the idea that the girl's wants outweigh the boy's and that you can dismiss your partner's feelings. From my perspective, there's a reciprocal sitatuation here (edit: You'll notice that I keep taking people's justifications and reflecting them back from the other perspective). I keep getting told that it's not, but I've yet to get a answer as to why that is. Also, I've gotten a nice crop of insults and people ignoring or dismissing out of hand what I have to say.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'm not talking about girl vs. boy. I think that separating it by gender is a bad idea.

-pH
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Sure, I'm okay with pretending that this is a genderless issue. I think that's pretty silly, but I'm not about to make it a point of contention.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pH:
I'm not talking about girl vs. boy. I think that separating it by gender is a bad idea.

Like it or not, VDay celebrations and preparations have been separated by gender for a long time.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Pretend nothing, it IS a genderless issue.

-pH
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
No it's not. Many of the traditional VDay observances, such as buying flowers, is not a genderless act. It's much more common for a guy to buy a girl flowers than visa versa.

Also, in general, the gals seem to find it more important that VDay be celebrated, while the guys are more likely to be resentful of it.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Don't feel like arguing it with you because I'm much more concerned with the other points. Let's just say we disagree.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
What I do have a problem with is the the idea that the girl's wants outweigh the boy's
No one has said this. For the record, I believe Kat's statement when she said that her "he" back on page 1 was gender neutral.

quote:
and that you can dismiss your partner's feelings.
Or this.

What has been said is that it is selfish to dismiss your partner's feelings, and that communication is necessary to establish what those feelings are.

quote:
From my perspective, there's a reciprocal sitatuation here
Right-- I think some of us see this reciprocity as something akin to keeping score. You know, "Look, honey, I did this for you, so you have to do this for me, and then I'll do this for you..."

Or, "If you respect me, I'll respect you."

That system doesn't work well in maintaining a loving and caring relationship.

There's a great song by Mark Knopfler called "Nobody's Got the Gun" that speaks to this:

quote:
She may not understand
And she may want you eating from her hand
If she's got you in a corner
And you can smell the smoke and flame
You reach for your revolver
To do the same
You'll blow your love away forever, number one
Nobody's got the gun

I think the idea of reciprocity naturally leads to defensiveness and a kind of "I gotta get mine" attitude, especially if the couple doesn't have an attitude of forgiving established BEFORE they set up the attitude of reciprocity. I don't think that's healthy.
 
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Mr. Squicky,

quote:
What I do have a problem with is the the idea that the girl's wants outweigh the boy's and that you can dismiss your partner's feelings.
I'm coming into this conversation late, and I've not yet read through all six pages of posts, so please excuse me if this has been said so far.

But here's my question: isn't a relationship about a mutual give and take, and mutual sacrifice and caring and whatnot? To me, the ideal relationship is where each partner's primary concern is to spend time with/make happy the other partner. It's not just something they've decided to committ to, but it's something they just feel naturally like doing.

Do you agree or disagree with my ideal?

If you agree, what's wrong with just knuckling under, just a bit, to your partner's desire and the thing that makes her happy? Granted, it's one thing if it's always you doing the knuckling under. But it seems to me that what's being described is that she feels very, very good getting some of the traditional V-Day gifts and gestures. Let's say a 9/10. Whereas you, from what you've stated that I've seen so far, have a minor bordering on substantial resentment of the whole process, and feel your year-round gifts, gestures, and behaviors should exempt you on V-Day...from the obligation, at least. Let's say that's a -4/-10.

If I'm assigning the relative importance to each of you...why exactly is it a good thing for you not to do what she wants in this case, since it makes her feel a lot happier than it makes you feel irritated?
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
quote:
Again, you are only looking at this from the point of view you want to see it from. Doing the expected gifts, flowers, etc. are not the only way to only way to make people feel loved, nor is Valentine's the only day that these can be done.
No, it's you who can't see beyond your point of view. Which one of us agreed to compromise their point of view, after all?

No, celebrating Valentine's Day is not the only way to show love. But if it is a way to show love that is meaningful to one person in the relationship and the other person isn't made so miserable by the observation as to make up for the joy the other person gets out of it, then I think the other person should choose to show love in the way their partner wants them to, regardless of what else they do the other 364 days of the year. That's assuming that V-Day is important, which is what I'm assuming. It isn't always important. But we're talking about theoreticals here.

Also, I never said that celebrating Valentine's Day required gifts and flowers. That's not how I want it celebrated, actually.

So stop calling me self-centered when I'm just trying to be fair, okay?
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
I like the way the Japanese do it. Valentine's Day, Februrary 14th, is a day for women to give chocolates to men. Then, a month later, on March 14, comes White Day, on which the men give chocolates to the women who gave them chocolates on Valentine's Day. The way I see it, that puts the ball in the woman's court every year. "Okay, honey, I'll be sweet and romantic and give you all the candy you want . . . but you first."

Of course, the danger in that, it seems to me, is that then the guy is in even more trouble if he doesn't reciprocate on White Day.

Admittedly, my interpretation of the custom does depend on the stereotype of women wanting to celebrate the day more than men do. But, let's be honest, that's usually the case, isn't it? I don't care for Valentine's Day, myself, but then, I've been single for eleven years. What is there in Valentine's Day that would interest me? If I had a girlfriend, at this point I'd celebrate anything she wanted me to. I'd observe Ramadan if it would score me points.

I've read recently that the South Koreans have taken it a step further. One month after White Day, on April 14, is Black Day, on which people who didn't get chocolates from anybody on either previous holiday gather together and eat noodles. That's the one I need.
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
quote:
Also, I think a relationship where you feel you get to decide how important or valid another person's feelings are about something is...less than optimal.
Okay, I've talked at length with Jon Boy, who thinks he understands what you're saying (and if he does, then I and others have been misunderstanding you, but then, you've been misunderstanding us too).

First off, does "you" refer to me, or is it ambiguous? Because if it's ambiguous, I agree with you; that relationship would be less than optimal. If you're referring to me and implying that in my relationship I claim the right to decide which of Jon Boy's feelings are valid, then that's really, really low of you to say. Because that's not at all what I was saying, and I think you know that. I was stating an opinion, which, last time I checked, I have the right to do. But maybe I misread, and maybe you were just speaking hypothetically.

Okay, now on to your actual points.

To start, let's make sure we're on the same page. Let's say we have a hypothetical couple, Jane and Ben. Ben thinks Valentine's Day is contrived and pointless. Jane loves it and has looked forward her whole life to being spoiled on that day: flowers, a romantic dinner, and then maybe spectacular sex at the end of it (if that's okay to say on a family forum).

You say that if Ben has strong feelings against Valentine's Day, Jane is insensitive and selfish to expect him to celebrate it.

Katharina and others say that if Ben doesn't celebrate Valentine's Day when she wants to so badly, he's insensitive and selfish.

Right?

The problem I'm seeing is this: while many of the people who side with Jane have admitted that there may be times when it would be appropriate for her to lower her expectations to save Ben the aggravation, you have never admitted that there may be times when it would be appropriate for Ben to suck it up and give Jane at least some of what she craves.

So what I'm hearing is that you think Jane should always give in to Ben. Which is every bit as bad as what you've accused me of saying (which is not what I actually was saying).

Maybe you didn't mean that. But you haven't said anything that gives me any other impression. So, if you don't mean that, please explain what you do mean.

Okay, point number two.

You have mentioned a girlfriend whom you say you do sweet, romantic things for throughout the year. To be perfectly honest, I think I would prefer that to having one day for romance. But to be perfectly honest, you are a rare man to do that. If guys did sweet, romantic things throughout the year, women probably wouldn't feel a need for Valentine's Day.

And I'm guessing that your girlfriend is fine with the arrangement. If so, good for her and good for you.

Also, if she felt like all your sweet, romantic acts throughout the year were voided by your lack of participation on Valentine's Day, I would call her selfish. However, I wouldn't call her selfish if she wanted you to celebrate Valentine's Day and told you so.

Now my final point.

There are more than the two black and white options available for Valentine's Day. While talking with Jon Boy about this last night, we decided that while the lasagna dinner I made last night was nice, and lighting candles and drinking cherry 7-Up in our crystal goblets (which someone gave us for our wedding but which we never use) was fun, he would rather leave the gift giving out of the celebration. I agreed that Valentine's Day could be fun without gifts, and we finished a rather pleasant discussion with an outcome we're both satisfied with: I get my romantic dinner and my fun, and he's spared the commercial aspects he hates.

So, my point there is that there doesn't actually have to be a "winner" or a "loser" in this case. Each couple should talk about what they expect or want from Valentine's Day, and then they can decide together how to celebrate in a way that will be enjoyable for both of them.
 
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
Can I get an Amen?

Amen!
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
*applauds*
 


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