In the mid eighties when I was a missionary in Austria I visited Mathausen, a Nazi era concentration camp which has been made into a Holocaust memorial.
When my companion and I boarded the bus to Mathausen we met up with a couple of young American women, one of whom was Jewish. They were also going to see the memorial and so we spent most of the day with them.
As were returning on the bus to Linz, I commented to our new American aquaintances that I was dismayed that growing up in the US I had not learned that 12 million people were killed in the Nazi Concentration camps, I had only learned that 6 million Jews were killed. I remarked that I would like to see the deaths of that other 6 million remembered equally to the Jewish deaths and was taken back when my new Jewish friend found this deeply offensive. The more we discussed it the more shocked I became. She insisted that the Jews had been the only group that had been targeted. Everytime I pointed out another group like gypsies, polish aristicrats, homosexuals, jehovah's witnesses and so on who had been systematically targeted by the Nazi's, she had a reason for why the Nazi's had a good reason to target those groups so they couldn't be compared to the Jews.
Since that time I have had similar discussions with a number of Jews and although their responses have never gone to the extreme of implying that the other 6 million somehow deserved to die, their response is always atleast qualitatively the same. Whenever I suggest that I would like to see it commonly reported that 12 million people were killed in the holocaust, 6 million of whom were Jews, I am suddenly suspected to be an anti-semite. In various ways, all the Jews I discussed this with have agreed that my statement somehow depreciated what the Jewish people suffered.
This is an attitude I have as yet been unable to understand. To me, recognizing that many different people were targeted by the Nazi's makes the crime more universal. It becomes a crime against all humanity rather than solely a crime against Jews. Recognizing the breadth of the Holocaust makes it more personal to me because I see how easily anyone who is different can be the victim of such hatred. Everyone of us has at some place or time been the outsider, the minority, the different persons. In that sense, the Holocaust is not solely a crime against Jews, its a crime against every human being who might ever be seen as different. It makes me more vigiliant against negative stereotypes, intolerance and hatred directed against any group.
I have sensed in some of the Jews I spoke with a jealous sense of ownership of the Holocaust. It seemed that perhaps the Holocaust was a crucial defining part of the their Jewish self image. To suggest that others might have suffered equally under the terror of the Nazis somehow eliminated a part of what made them unique as Jews, hence the idea must be anti-semitic.
So my question to both the Jews and Goyim of hatrack is this, can you help me understand why so many Jews resist equal acknowledgement of the 6 million non-Jews who died in the Nazi concentration camps. Must acknowledging that other groups may have suffered similarly necessarily belittle the suffering experienced by Jews or could such acknowledgement bring about a greater empathy and compassion for all who suffer.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Ack, my post got eaten. Suffice to say I agree with you Rabbit, and actually this is the first I'm hearing about objections such as those.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I cannot understand that. No one deserves to be targetted for elimination. I don't think looking at the other 6 million that died belittles what Jewish people went through. It only shows you just how horrible the Nazis were and why nothing like that should ever happen again!
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
Many people still harbor strong predjudices against the other targeted groups: Communists, Roma, Gays, Jehovah's Witnesses etc.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
I always, when this subject comes up, mention, briefly, the mortality rates for the Russians, the endless slaughter...
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
But people are still prejudiced against Jews... It never makes sense to me.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phanto: I always, when this subject comes up, mention, briefly, the mortality rates for the Russians, the endless slaughter...
I don't have the same objection to people who distinguish the holocaust victims from other victims of war. I am conflicted in answering responding to this post because I do not want to imply being killed in combat somehow makes your death less bad. An unimaginably large number of lives were lost in WW II. According to Wikipedia, 62 million civilians and soldiers lost their lives in the war. Everyone of them was a tragedy (with the possible exception of a few in the German high command).
But still, there is a difference between the Russian soldiers and civilians killed in combat and those who died in the Holocaust. Both war and deliberate genocide should be seen as crimes against humanity, but they aren't the same crime.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by PrometheusBound: Many people still harbor strong predjudices against the other targeted groups: Communists, Roma, Gays, Jehovah's Witnesses etc.
I don't think that's all though, as there are still many people who harbour prejudice against Jews.
I'm pretty sure that the people you've met , Rabbit, feel that full acceptance of the other Holocaust victims sidelines the fact that Jews were the most vastly affected.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Those people are just being stupid. Seriously.
I go to a Jewish private school and we took a class on Holocaust studies and we learned extensively about all of the different groups that were targeted and that Nazis just had a hatred for people that are different, and just had a stronger hatred of Jews, not that Jews were exclusively hated.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:I'm pretty sure that the people you've met , Rabbit, feel that full acceptance of the other Holocaust victims sidelines the fact that Jews were the most vastly affected.
Were they? Jews were by far the largest group targeted by the Holocaust but the evidence I've seen suggested that other targeted groups were affected in very similar ways. Certainly, every person who slaved in the forced labor camps suffered in very similar ways and every person who died in the Holocaust is equally dead whether they be Jewish or not.
I'm not sure at all how acknowledging that 12 million human beings died in the Nazi holocaust sidelines the crimes committed against Jews. Do people have such limited mental facilities that they can't recognize both simultaneously.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Rabbit, on the whole, I agree with you. The only difference I can see is that it's not clear to me that the systemized, assembly-line methods would have been invoked absent the Jews. Certainly, prior to the Wannsee conference, Jews and non-Jews were being killed in the tens of thousands by mobile killing units.
After that though, the rate increased enormously, and the machinery of the entire state had been incorporated into the national policy to wipe out an entire peoples. The logistical machinery of death was mobilized with the specific intent of murdering Jews.
That an equal number of others were caught up in the machinery is tragic. From an individual perspective, each death was as tragic and meaningful as any other.
On a smaller scale, if a Rosewood-like mob was spurred into action by racist anti-black demagoguery, but the mob, once started, also attacked the equal-sized Jewish settlement next door, the victims would all be equally important and worthy of remembrance. But there would be something about the incident particular to black people that would be worthy of analysis, special mention, and elegy.
But that would be an additional thing to bear witness to, not something to take away from memorials to all the victims.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Those people are just being stupid. Seriously.
I go to a Jewish private school and we took a class on Holocaust studies and we learned extensively about all of the different groups that were targeted and that Nazis just had a hatred for people that are different, and just had a stronger hatred of Jews, not that Jews were exclusively hated.
I'm glad to here it Gaal. I'm certain that my experience does not reflect the views of all Jews and hope that it is indeed a minority view. I will admit its not something I've ever discussed with my closest Jewish friends. When I've heard opinions that shock me, I tend shy away from the subjects with my closest friends. If they should happen to share those views, I'd really rather not know.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:I'm pretty sure that the people you've met , Rabbit, feel that full acceptance of the other Holocaust victims sidelines the fact that Jews were the most vastly affected.
That's the impression I was left with.
quote:...Nazis just had a hatred for people that are different, and just had a stronger hatred of Jews, not that Jews were exclusively hated.
I agree; Hitler had used existing antisemitism in Germany in his rise to power, and once called the plan that eventually became the Holocaust "the Final Solution to the Jewish Question." You get the impression from reading about Hitler that his hatred for Jews was particularly intense, and many laws that were passed in the lead-up to the genocide were aimed directly at the Jewish population.
Or, now that I've refreshed the page, what Dag said.
--j_k
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
We were the primary target. The camps were created to exterminate us. Once they had them, they were useful for killing others, and were used for that. This in no way lessens the tragedy that happened to others who were murdered by the Nazis, but it's ridiculous to say that since we died and they died, it's all the same. It isn't.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
It's ridiculous? Really? Ridiculous? Are you positive?
It's not all the same, but it isn't ridiculous to suggest that it is very much the same. Murder, for whatever motive, is very much the same act all over.
I'm trying to understand why it's ridiculous to say that the act of exterminating those twelve million people was a single tragedy. It's a single, incalculable tragedy. If you split an incalculable tragedy into two, it still gives you two impossibly tragic events. Also, it was perpetrated by the same people, and for the same reasons. Not the same, never EXACTLY the same, but very much in a similar vein. Just because you suggest (and I don't that this is accurate) that the camps were made specifically for the Jews and with no other purpose in mind, that doesn't make the tragedy worse in my mind.
Is it a badge of honor? Is it an important thing to remember that the holocaust was "owned" by the Jews in some way, and that they have some sort of claim to the full burden of that act? I think it's most important to remember that irrational hatred and fear of an out-group of any kind could lead to this thing. Why does that out-group have to be, specifically, the Jews and most importantly them?
And think about the murderers that did this. Do you think that they saw the murders of Jews any differently from the murders of countless others? What I mean is, do you think that the others were so unimportant to the Nazi worldview that these camps would NEVER have been constructed if the jews had not existed? Their platform only targeted the jews because they needed a very clear and visible scapegoat. The fear and hate was all irrational and insane, and the idea that the Jews were so important in developing this way of looking a the world seems a little backwards to me. I think the Nazis (or some other similar party) could have taken control on a platform that blamed some other group for all of Germany's problems.
Of course we know from a most basic study of history that Germany's own jingoist imperialism, and its embarrassment and degradation at the hands of western Europe in the beginning of the 20th century that led to the Third Reich. The Jews were not the source of all of this, they were a very prominent scapegoat for it. It's important to remember that, but it isn't ridiculous to suggest that Germany would have gone down that path if the Jews hadn't been an easy target to begin with. It so happened that they were, but isn't the whole thing basically irrational? Isn't there no concievable reason for exterminating a whole people?
Edit: I hasten to add that history will forget many of the details of the Holocaust. There have been greater tragedies on Earth (not many) and there will be greater ones in the future, and we will forget much of this one. When we do, I hope that it will be because everything we could learn from it has been learned, and that remembering it in its gory specifics would be a futile and disturbing exercise. This could take an incredibly long time- films that still depict the gory death of Jesus are still popular, and people still claim to be able to learn relevant lessons from that. But still, I know that one day, if we continue on into the future, we will have to forget WWII and most everything about it. But when that happens, I hope it will be because we don't need to remember.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Don't forget that the concentration camps were initially designed for the undesirables; the political activists, trade-unionists, gypsies, homosexuals etc. Literally as places to concentrate detractors and enemies of the "Glorious Third Reich".
The death camps came later and were aimed at solving the "Jewish Problem", after the ghettos, expulsions and "mobile units" had been seen to fail.
If anyone is interested I thoroughly recommend "Auschwitz: The Nazis & the 'Final Solution'" from the BBC. It's a series of documentaries that cover the Final Solution form the rise of Nazism through to the liberation of the camps. The most illuminating ascpect of the series are the interviews with survivor, from BOTH sides. Seeing a snowy haired Grandpa justifying his actions in the death squads is chilling to the core. I think we've all seen or read descriptions from the actual victims, but to hear from those who perpetrated the crimes is something new to me at least, and wholly shocking.
I became interested in this after visiting the Bergen-Belsen site inthe 90's. It's a sobering thing to wander around a landscaped park dotted with little mounds, only to realise that each mound bears a plaque bearing a dedication such as "Here lie 6000 dead".
Personally, I don't think that the Holocaust can be owned by any one group. The Jews were by far and away the largest section of the population who were effected, and the horros of the Final Solution were dreamed up with them in mind, but in my opinion it is more important that we remember that it happened, and it was a crime against humanity as a whole rather than solely against one group or race.
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind..."
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
I feel that equal significance should be placed on remembering and acknowledging all the people who were harassed, beaten, enslaved, and killed at the hands of the Third Reich. Too many people barely know the details of the Holocaust as it is; we have to put equal stress on those who were killed for being undesirable as well as being Jewish. No one in my history classes knew the Nazis killed and harassed people other than the Jews, and even then, it was barely even mentioned in the textbook and in discussion.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by anti_maven: Don't forget that the concentration camps were initially designed for the undesirables; the political activists, trade-unionists, gypsies, homosexuals etc. Literally as places to concentrate detractors and enemies of the "Glorious Third Reich".
Thought this was significant. This seems to match my recollection of my history readings, although I've never went out of the way to double-check it.
The Holocaust was a great tragedy, but I always find it distasteful when *anyone* tries to distort history to make a point.
The Nanking Massacre is a similar event that suffers from a similar polarization and attempts at distorting it by both sides.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I think there are times when it would be impolite for these discussions to take place. Mentioning it to a Jew on the way back from a memorial, is probably not the best of times.
I think part of it was how Jews were classified by Nazis. It was genetic to them. One grandparent on either side of the family was all it took. Converts into Christianity, or even those not born Jewish by Jewish standards would still be shipped off. They wanted to wipe out the Jewish bloodline. A Jehovah's Witness could probably hide out as a Catholic or Protestant a lot easier. (Especially considering their role in helping save Jewish lives.)
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Personally, I don't think that the Holocaust can be owned by any one group.
Sure, it belongs to the Nazis.
I didn't know there were 12 million total victims. I always thought it was 5 million Jews and a smattering of other minorities. Even so, I'd agree with the verbiage that Jews were the principal victims. Trying to say that equal numbers of other minorities died is innaccurate, since lumping them together discounts the uniqueness of those minorities.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I think we've gone down the wrong road when we start to comparing who got the worst of the Holocaust. That conversation degrades the entire atrocity. It was a black eye for all of humanity and everyone ought to learn.
This being said, while a lot of people killed, were killed, tortured, and were tortured, different people perpetrated or suffered these crimes for different reasons, and studying the different reasons of all parties seems the best way to go.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: It's ridiculous? Really? Ridiculous? Are you positive?
Hmm... let me think... <ponders> Yes. I'm positive. It's ridiculous.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: It's not all the same, but it isn't ridiculous to suggest that it is very much the same.
Nor did I say otherwise.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Just because you suggest (and I don't that this is accurate) that the camps were made specifically for the Jews and with no other purpose in mind, that doesn't make the tragedy worse in my mind.
Tough. The German idea of extermination was first and foremost an idea to exterminate the Jews. If you don't understand that, it's your lack of understanding that's at issue -- not the facts.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Is it a badge of honor? Is it an important thing to remember that the holocaust was "owned" by the Jews in some way, and that they have some sort of claim to the full burden of that act?
It was the culmination of 18 centuries of vicious anti-semitism, most of which was perpetrated by Christians and furthered by the various churches. There's a context here, Orincoro. None of the other groups murdered by the Nazis had that kind of history there. So yes, it's very important to keep alive the memory of what happened, and what the result of that kind of vicious hatred is.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I think it's most important to remember that irrational hatred and fear of an out-group of any kind could lead to this thing. Why does that out-group have to be, specifically, the Jews and most importantly them?
Because Christianity and Islam account for billions of people in the world. Both have a significant history of Jew-hatred and Jew-murder, though Christianity has been much, much worse. Both of them expected Jews to abandon our religion and join theirs, and both got really, really nasty when we didn't. And while most Christians have grown up over the past 60 years, the seeds of that murderousness still exist in Christianity, just as they always did, and it's appropriate for the object lesson to be held up to them. The fact that it was not Christianity which perpetrated the Holocaust makes it a little easier to hold that object lesson up to Christians. None of them seem to want to take any responsibility for the various pogroms and massacres and inquisitions and expulsions and kidnappings and forced conversions that were perpetrated by Christians, but they can all pretty much agree that what the Nazis did was bad.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: And think about the murderers that did this. Do you think that they saw the murders of Jews any differently from the murders of countless others?
Yup. I sure do. There were no conspiracy theories about Gypsies or homosexuals or Slavs taking over the world and polluting the master race. It was assimilated Jews who intermarried with Germans -- not Gypsies.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: What I mean is, do you think that the others were so unimportant to the Nazi worldview that these camps would NEVER have been constructed if the jews had not existed?
That's correct.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Their platform only targeted the jews because they needed a very clear and visible scapegoat.
One which all of Europe had a good, solid history of hating. Thanks to our good friends, the Christians.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: The fear and hate was all irrational and insane, and the idea that the Jews were so important in developing this way of looking a the world seems a little backwards to me.
It didn't seem strange to centuries of European Christians, Orincoro. It was what they learned in Church all the time. Jews were deicides. Children of the devil.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Edit: I hasten to add that history will forget many of the details of the Holocaust. There have been greater tragedies on Earth (not many) and there will be greater ones in the future, and we will forget much of this one. When we do, I hope that it will be because everything we could learn from it has been learned, and that remembering it in its gory specifics would be a futile and disturbing exercise. This could take an incredibly long time- films that still depict the gory death of Jesus are still popular, and people still claim to be able to learn relevant lessons from that. But still, I know that one day, if we continue on into the future, we will have to forget WWII and most everything about it. But when that happens, I hope it will be because we don't need to remember.
That'd be great. Personally, speaking from the inside, I'm sick and tired of hearing about the Holocaust. Because while it's a valuable object lesson to people on the outside, the only lesson we need to learn from it is to fight back, and I think there are better ways to learn that.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
Yes since Jews are the chosen of God the deaths of the others are only worth 3/5 as much. Making the total deaths 3.6 million, of which we must acknowledge that the gays, and Polish aristocracy had it coming, the communists were legitimate enemies and the Jehovah's witnesses had to go. Lisa is right it was a uniquely Jewish experience to face extinction at Nazi hands...
What was that? The Jews never faced extinction but the Polish Aristocracy did? Well still they where the leaders of an enemy state not the Chosen of God, sheesh...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: None of the other groups murdered by the Nazis had that kind of history there.
Gypsies faced political campaigns of extermination and deportation for just as long as the Jews, and for many of the same reasons.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Autistic children were routinely killed or exposed for several centuries; that's where the belief in fairy changelings comes from.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Interesting reading.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Very interesting Scott.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Lisa: Actually, both christianity and islam have centuries of history of killing gays and lesbians as well.
Christianity has mostly gotten over it, but still has some problems (if someone wants debate that *again* let's take it to another thread) but islam still murders us, officially, with state sanction, to the cheers of the crowd.
We were part of the holocust as much as Jews were. That's why two of our symbols are pink or black triangles.
(edit: Clarity)
[ February 13, 2007, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: The Pixiest ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:None of them seem to want to take any responsibility for the various pogroms and massacres and inquisitions and expulsions and kidnappings and forced conversions that were perpetrated by Christians, but they can all pretty much agree that what the Nazis did was bad.
None of us want to take responsability for these things for the same reasons modern day Jews don't want to take responsability for the death of Christ:
We didn't actually, with our own hands, do anything like that.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
Interesting Article, I remember a BBC report a few years ago that described how British Socialist programs for Gypsy's had destroyed their way of life by paying them to settle in one area so that two whole generations have lived in one location and never wandered about in a traditional manner. I find that ironic, I do not see how that applies to the Jews since being Jewish was considered a matter of Genetics... unless one subsidized out breeding with conversion to Christianity, paying Jews to marry non Jews and raise children as Christians with much less significant penalties for remaining enclosed in a Jewish society might have never raised a blip on the international radar. Perhaps the result would have been more detrimental to Jewish identity then a Holocaust, because it would have eliminated both the Jewish identity and the need for a Jewish State.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Rabbit, on the whole, I agree with you. The only difference I can see is that it's not clear to me that the systemized, assembly-line methods would have been invoked absent the Jews. Certainly, prior to the Wannsee conference, Jews and non-Jews were being killed in the tens of thousands by mobile killing units.
After that though, the rate increased enormously, and the machinery of the entire state had been incorporated into the national policy to wipe out an entire peoples. The logistical machinery of death was mobilized with the specific intent of murdering Jews.
That an equal number of others were caught up in the machinery is tragic. From an individual perspective, each death was as tragic and meaningful as any other.
On a smaller scale, if a Rosewood-like mob was spurred into action by racist anti-black demagoguery, but the mob, once started, also attacked the equal-sized Jewish settlement next door, the victims would all be equally important and worthy of remembrance. But there would be something about the incident particular to black people that would be worthy of analysis, special mention, and elegy.
But that would be an additional thing to bear witness to, not something to take away from memorials to all the victims.
Dag has the best post in this thread, so far.
For the record, most of the Jews of my acquaintance are aware that other groups were targeted in addition to the Jews. I have never heard Jews I know express the sentiment that any of the Nazi murders were justified.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:None of them seem to want to take any responsibility for the various pogroms and massacres and inquisitions and expulsions and kidnappings and forced conversions that were perpetrated by Christians, but they can all pretty much agree that what the Nazis did was bad.
None of us want to take responsability for these things for the same reasons modern day Jews don't want to take responsability for the death of Christ:
We didn't actually, with our own hands, do anything like that.
And none of us, nor any of our ancestors, did anything to your fictional deity. It's not quite the same thing. Furthermore, the theology that murdered so many Jews is still there. We're simply fortunate that so many Christians no longer act on it.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Counter Bean: Yes since Jews are the chosen of God the deaths of the others are only worth 3/5 as much.
Weren't you banned?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
quote:Furthermore, the theology that murdered so many Jews is still there. We're simply fortunate that so many Christians no longer act on it.
I find this interesting, given your statements concerning theological/scriptural standards and/or punishments that are not in effect now, but might be at some future time (like, for instance, when a proper Sanhedrin is functioning).
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
In any case, Lisa, there's the reason that most Christians don't take "responsability" for the Inquisition and other atrocities commited by religions throughout the ages.
We're disassociated from that particular interpretation of scripture-- calling us to take responsability for something that hasn't been believed or practiced by the majority of the Christian world in more than 100 years is ridiculous.
Do you still think it's necessary for today's Christians to "take responsability" for the atrocities committed by men hundreds of years ago?
How far back shall this responsability go?
What does this responsability entail?
Are YOU willing to take responsability for the religions and cultures that the Jews persecuted and destroyed?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Furthermore, the theology that murdered so many Jews is still there.
Really? Specifically which portions of theology?
Oh, and thanks, Ela.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I have to admit, the phrase "fictional deity" made me giggle.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Furthermore, the theology that murdered so many Jews is still there. We're simply fortunate that so many Christians no longer act on it.
++
Huh, I actually agree with Lisa for once.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I didn't know the Jews were supposed to have killed the FSM and IPU. I really should keep better track of this stuff. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Sure, just like the theology that led Jews to wipe out peoples in their travels is still out there. We're fortunate Jews no longer act on that.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'd like to see the specific, still-widely-held-by-Christians theology she's referring to.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
If she can tell me what Christian theology means, I can tell her what Jewish theology means.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
That was not Theology! That was direct instruction from God! When God tells you to commit genocide and steal the property and civilization of a people (and turn their nubile virgins into sex slaves) you do it! To call it theology demeans the divine nature of the process, God used those people to build the Jews cities after using the stability and hospitality of Egypt to build their numbers, (paying the Egyptians back with ruin, looting and infanticide) in other words those people had served God's purpose in the plan for the Jews and were disposable, they where lucky that they got to exist at all.
Comparing God's plan to Hitler's is Blasphemy! God choosing breeding stock to create a master race is nothing like the Aryan Doctrine of the Nazis! (of course maybe the Nazi's were trying to avoid a copyright infringement lawsuit with the holocaust... Hmmm...)
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
That's not how Jatraqueros act, even when other Jatraqueros DO act like that.
Knock it off, CB/BC.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Sure, just like the theology that led Jews to wipe out peoples in their travels is still out there. We're fortunate Jews no longer act on that.
++
Very true too. We're all saying true things. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: In any case, Lisa, there's the reason that most Christians don't take "responsability" for the Inquisition and other atrocities commited by religions throughout the ages.
We're disassociated from that particular interpretation of scripture-- calling us to take responsability for something that hasn't been believed or practiced by the majority of the Christian world in more than 100 years is ridiculous.
Characterizing it as "more than 100 years" is ridiculous. The Catholic Church didn't even start backing down from its anti-semitism until the 1960s. Get some historical perspective, would you? Do you think that nineteen centuries of viciousness evaporates because of 40 years of moderation?
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Do you still think it's necessary for today's Christians to "take responsability" for the atrocities committed by men hundreds of years ago?
When I hear a Christian say, "Yes, that's what Christianity said, but we don't look at it that way anymore," I can accept that. When I hear Christians denying that it was anything but bad or mistaken people doing things that weren't justified by Christianity, it tells me that they're just trying to avoid the truth.
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Are YOU willing to take responsability for the religions and cultures that the Jews persecuted and destroyed?
You mean the Canaanites? Sure I will. I'm proud of it. God told us to destroy them, and we did. The only thing we did wrong was in not completing the job fast enough, and we paid the price for that.
I'm consistent, you see. Now, you can say that God told the Inquisition to burn Jews alive. If you do that, then I say it's a lie, or that any religious claim that God commanded any such thing is blasphemy. But Christians are kind of stuck here, because they can't give Jews a hard time for wiping out the Canaanites. They also believe it's what God commanded.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
That is how we debate, not act, action is very different for idle chat on a blizzard day.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
See... the difference is that Jews really are the 'Master Race' with a direct pipeline to God. It is so obvious...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: But Christians are kind of stuck here, because they can't give Jews a hard time for wiping out the Canaanites. They also believe it's what God commanded.
Or, for some of us, we believe it is what the Jews believed God commanded. Not the same thing.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Furthermore, the theology that murdered so many Jews is still there.
Really? Specifically which portions of theology?
"Pharisees and scribes, hypocrites".
The Jews' holy scriptures predicted a god/savior/messiah and they rejected him when he came
Jews (or at least Jewish leaders) were responsible for the murder of said god/savior/messiah
That do you?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I didn't know the Jews were supposed to have killed the FSM and IPU. I really should keep better track of this stuff.
I've told you and told you, FlyingCow: there is no IPU. If he's pink, he isn't invisible, and if he's invisible, he isn't pink. <sigh>
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
Some believe that all that breeding and sorting among the Jews was to produce Jesus Christ and that the Jews, like the Egyptians and Canaanites, have now served their purpose in God's plan, so they are on their own like the rest of us, trying to make the best world men can shape with the hand of the Savior to guide us.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I've told you and told you, FlyingCow: there is no IPU. If he's pink, he isn't invisible, and if he's invisible, he isn't pink.
Ah, but that is part of the majesty and mystery of the IPU.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: And none of us, nor any of our ancestors, did anything to your fictional deity.
(emphasis mine)
It always amazes me how Lisa can show such understanding and tolerance of others. She really is a model of how we should all follow the rules of our forum...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Characterizing it as "more than 100 years" is ridiculous. The Catholic Church didn't even start backing down from its anti-semitism until the 1960s.
Aha.
What about the rest of the Christian world that isn't Catholic? There's a pretty sizable chunk that doesn't fit in your definition of Christian, and has NO ties (or scarce ties) to Catholocism.
quote:Do you think that nineteen centuries of viciousness evaporates because of 40 years of moderation?
Most Christians today do not recognize the Inquisition as part of "their" story. Furthermore, many Christians since Martin Luther don't recognize those atrocities as part of their story.
quote:When I hear Christians denying that it was anything but bad or mistaken people doing things that weren't justified by Christianity, it tells me that they're just trying to avoid the truth.
I've asked you specifically, and so has Dag and Rakeesh: provide evidence for your claim. MY understanding of Christianity doesn't justify committing genocide. In fact, MY understanding of Christianity actually harshly critisizes the people who murder Jews for being Jewish. Specifically.
You are mistaken about Christian beliefs, Lisa.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Silly Scott, don't you know that all Christians are the same? I have a hard time telling them apart, myself. Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: * "Pharisees and scribes, hypocrites". * The Jews' holy scriptures predicted a god/savior/messiah and they rejected him when he came * Jews (or at least Jewish leaders) were responsible for the murder of said god/savior/messiah
That do you?
No, actually. Those are not doctrines or a theology that calls for murder.
Your post isn't logical by the the widest, most liberal standards.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
I'm in a good position cos i can call Lisa a liar and her deity a fictional one, though. So there Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:"Pharisees and scribes, hypocrites". The Jews' holy scriptures predicted a god/savior/messiah and they rejected him when he came Jews (or at least Jewish leaders) were responsible for the murder of said god/savior/messiah That do you?
No. None of those "murdered" any Jews. They might have been used in a chain of justification that resulted in such murders. That's an entirely different thing altogether, since the rest of the chain would be necessary to support your claim.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: You mean the Canaanites? Sure I will. I'm proud of it. God told us to destroy them, and we did. The only thing we did wrong was in not completing the job fast enough, and we paid the price for that.
I'm consistent, you see. Now, you can say that God told the Inquisition to burn Jews alive. If you do that, then I say it's a lie, or that any religious claim that God commanded any such thing is blasphemy.
Wow. This is bizarre. So, hypothetically, if the Holocaust *was* ordered by God, there would be nothing wrong with it? To reiterate, genocide is not inherently bad, just genocide not-sanctioned by God?
With apologies to Dag, perhaps another comparison to children is in order link :
quote: "Tamarin [an Israeli psychologist] presented to more than a thousand Israeli schoolchildren, aged between eight and fourteen, the account of the battle of Jericho in the book of Joshua: Joshua said to the people, 'Shout; for the LORD has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction...But all silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are sacred to the LORD; they shall go into the treasury of the LORD.'...Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and assess, with the edge of the sword...And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.
Tamarin then asked the children a simple moral question: 'Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted righty or not?' They had to choose between A (total approval), B (partial approval) and C (total disapproval). The results were polarized: 66 per cent gave total approval and 26 per cent gave total dissaproval, with rather fewer (8 per cent) in the middle with partial approval. Here are three typical answers from the total approval (A) group:
In my opinion Joshua and the Sons of Israel acted well, and here are the reasons: God promised them this land, and gave them permission to conquer. If they would not have acted in this manner or killed anyone, then there would be the danger that the Sons of Israel would have assimilated among the Goyim.
In my opinion Joshua was right when he did it, one reason being that God commanded him to exterminate the people so that the tribes of Israel will not be able to assimilate amongst them and learn their bad ways.
Joshua did good because the people who inhabited the land were of a different religion, and when Joshua killed them he wiped their religion from the earth." (pp 255-256)
Continuing on a little further:
"Tamarin ran a fascinating control group in his experiment. A different group of 168 Israeli children were given the same text from the book of Joshua, but with Joshua's own name replaced by 'General Lin' and 'Israel' replaced by 'a Chinese kingdom 3,000 years ago'. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7 per cent approved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of children agreed with the moral judgements that most modern humans would share. Joshua's action was a deed of barbaric genocide. But it all looks different from a religious point of view. And the difference starts early in life. It was religion that made the difference between children condemning genocide and condoning it." (p 257)
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
So it's not the theology of modern Christianity...but it was the theology of LOTS of European Christianity for, mmmm, a thousand years or so.
I suppose we can quibble about the definition of "theology." In this case, I'm referring to actions and attitudes of the religious elite and followers of a religion that followed from their interpretation of Scripture.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
As long as we remain constrained to this one world, so long as some fraction of the population breeds unchecked by responsibility with the goal of achieving superior numbers to sieze political control, we face the certainty that genocide will remain on the table, we will live to see it tried again.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Mucus, that's terrifying, but I'm not surprised.
Lisa thinks that being unrighteous in one area is worth it if it makes one think they are more righteous in other areas. This applies on both a micro and macro scale.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Scott R:
quote: What about the rest of the Christian world that isn't Catholic? There's a pretty sizable chunk that doesn't fit in your definition of Christian, and has NO ties (or scarce ties) to Catholocism.
A) The largest organised religion is Catholic B) Catholicism is the largest Christian church, so even if all other Christians did not suffer from the same problem...Lisa is still well justified in saying that many Christians suffer from a theology that inherently is aggressive towards Jews C) They have a pretty big tie, the *Bible*.
quote:Most Christians today do not recognize the Inquisition as part of "their" story.
As I said, most Christians today ( link ) are Catholic, hence the Inquisition is part of most of their stories regardless of whether they like it or not.
Counter Bean: What? What is your game/dysfunction?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Mucus, that's terrifying, but I'm not surprised.
Lisa thinks that being unrighteous in one area is worth it if it makes one think they are more righteous in other areas. This applies on both a micro and macro scale.
It's funny, but I don't even know if I should say "No, Lisa doesn't think any such thing", or "I sure do". Because your statement is so vague and bereft of context as to lack any meaning whatsoever. It's also unclear, just as a sentence. What, for example, would be a case of being unrighteous in one area, which would make one think they are more righteous in other areas? Does that even make sense?
[ February 13, 2007, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Lisa ]
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Mucus, Counter Bean is a critter who used to post as Bean Counter. He's a fundamentalist and a politically right-wing fanatic. He's kind of fun to have around, though, just for the entertainment value.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*snort laugh*
I didn't say anything. Sorry. Go back to your thread.
*gets out popcorn and ketchup*
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
I am the opposite of this Bean Counter, I am Counter Bean!
As for my posting style, as you can see I correctly anticipated the 'Lisa' position and took it to show the ridiculousness of it in advance, then I stated the truth mixed with irony, Nobody knows what Europe would look like today demographically without WW II and the Holocaust, we have a situation to deal with and anything else is idle speculation that is useful only in how amusing it is, so my speculations are meant to be amusing, mostly to me, since it is still a blizzard outside.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
ew You put ketchup on popcorn? GROSS!
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: ew You put ketchup on popcorn? GROSS!
Seconded!
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Lisa: I think what others object to is your repeated assertion that the theology exists that states that Christians ought to kill Jews PERIOD.
Yes I believe that Jewish people setup Christ to be crucified.
Yes I believe the Jewish leaders accepted the responsibility for killing Jesus.
Yes I believe God punished the Jews for killing the messiah.
Yes I believe the Jews will continue to endure hardship until they acknowledge that Jesus is their true messiah.
BUT
I do not believe that God has required that anybody kill or molest the Jews as a requisite for righteousness.
There are more then enough wicked people around that can be influenced to hurt the Jews without God doing anything.
There are no scriptures that request that Christians, by force, persuade the Jews to consider a recourse.
I do not believe the Jews owe ME or anyone else (save perhaps Jesus himself) an apology, Jesus has not asked that I be offended on his behalf until he gets one.
None of those beliefs cause me to think that Jews are living in sin or wicked. I see them exactly the same way I see anybody of any other religion; mistaken. It would be incredibly wrong of me to wish ill of those I disagree with across the board.
Lisa, from what I can tell I think you are an intelligent but more importantly good person. Surely you can understand that even, "God's chosen people" can foolishly commit terrible atrocities and fool themselves into believing it is God's will, no matter how specific the scriptures or oral traditions are.
If we take the Old Testament at face value, it is rife with this situation.
Christians that pretend Christianity is impervious to adulterations and heretical teachings that can gain general acceptance of a society are blind to history.
But more importantly no matter what evil is committed in the name of God, it in no way shape or form alters what God actually said to us.
As it stands, the Bible lacks a single passage calling for us to attack and molest or destroy any other human being.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
Witches
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Counter Bean: Witches
That passage is a mistranslation IMO.
And wouldn't God prefer we destroy the witch via converting her through sound reasoning rather then just killing her right off?
But lets say there was a baby eating witch in a Christian society, we would not be justified in doing anything until she posed a threat to the lives of those in that society.
Not only that, could you define what constitutes a "witch?"
And beyond that, you are quoting Law of Moses to me which is completely pointless as Jesus fulfilled it over back in 33AD approx.
"As it stands, the Bible lacks a single passage calling for us to attack and molest or destroy any other human being."
The quotation still stands.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Wow.
I'm sad to say I think CB is being somewhat fair. For as out there as Lisa is, he's matching her, just on the other end of the spectrum.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: ew You put ketchup on popcorn? GROSS!
No. The ketchup can be eaten either as a side, or like a dip for the popcorn. If you put it on the popcorn, it would just get soggy, and that WOULD be gross.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
First of all, Lisa scares me.
Secondly, the Jews were almost unique in the efficiency (for want of a better word) used against them. The Nazis hated and killed Poles and homosexuals, but they never seemed in a great hurry to totaly exterminate them. However, they were in a hurry to destroy two groups: the Jews and the Roma. Of all the groups, those two had the longest history of being opressed. They were also minorities, unlike say Poles. They were also more indetifiable than Gays or political dissidents.
Thirdly, both Jews and Christians have a long history of religious violence, the Christian violence being rather more recent. Almost all members of both groups now reject the theology that led to such violence.
Fourthly, there is no serious question about rather Jesus existed. If by "fictional deity," Lisa means that his divinity is fictitous, I will not arue with her.
Finaly, Jesus was born and died a Jew. He came from a rich tradition of Jewish thought and (suposidly) from the Jewish royal line. His disciples were Jewish, so were the authors of the Greek scriptures. There can be nothing anti-Semetic about their works: they were Jews!
I have been reading Hans Küng's On Being a Christian recently, and he makes a very good argument that Christianity can only be understood by analyzing Jesus's works in the context of first century Judea and in the context of Judaism.
[ February 13, 2007, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: PrometheusBound ]
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
The trouble with "Never Forgetting" the Holocaust is that people can remember it, yet still find some excuse why their particular hatred is more valid than the Nazis' hatred. People often remember history yet refuse to apply the lessons it offers to their own ignorance. Genocide will probably happen again and again, and each time the guilty party will claim "We are not like the Nazis. Our genocide truly is necessary!" And each time they will be wrong.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
And the problem with "Never again" is that it seems to have come to mean "never again will a German dictator with a funny moustache murder millions of Jews." At least, not yet. We knew about the Rwanda genocide as it was happening. Those in charge of preventing such things (UN peacekeeping forces) withdrew under orders from their head. The US has a law requiring us to intervene in cases of genocide -- OK, like we'd do that in Tibet -- so the President was careful not to say "genocide" in public until it was over. (The WH did use it on internal correspondence.)
Sometimes there's some intervention, as with Darfur, Bosnia (stupid intervention, but still), Kosovo. We should give ourselves some credit, I suppose.
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
Sorry I've been away from the computer/Hatrack for so long (almost a whole day!), or I would have maybe commented on this long enough ago that it didn't need to be locked now.
It's possible to disagree with someone else or someone else's religion without disrespect, and definitely without mockery.
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