[Edited to make title more reflective of current topic]
[ February 25, 2007, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Clearly, if chimps can be taught to wield spears, then they can be taught basic algebra. When can we start seeing No Chimp Left Behind legislation?
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
Well, we've known that chimps hunt monkeys for quite a while. And monkey is quite a popular food for humans in some parts of the world.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Now lets all wait a few billion years longer for chimps to design and use their teeth to fashion nuclear weapons as a means to smash their prey as they sleep on the forest floor.
I agree its quite fascinating. Seems like their aim is indeed to slow the prey by injuring it with the spear and then to simply catch it. I wonder if they will learn to strike certain vital spots and kill the bush babies outright, thus making the chimps favor the use of spears.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Fascinating. Thanks for the link!
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
And video!!! Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
This from a man who routinely eats primates of his own species?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
very interesting, indeed.
But I think it will be a much greater blow to man's uniqueness when a Chimpanzee carves a statue or a Gorilla paints a fresco.
I also thought it was a greater blow to man's uniqueness when they taught that Gorilla sign language and the Gorilla showed not only understanding of the language, but understanding of fairly deep concepts-- one of the researchers miscarried and the Gorilla not only understood the full situation when told when told, but managed to appropriately express sympathy... with a very limited vocabulary, too.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Thanks Stephen! I can't wait to watch that video when I go home (blocked by my work's firewall, unfortunately).
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Huh? (directed at KoM)
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Noemon,
Your workplace blocks National Geographic??!!??
Sheesh. My parents stopped prescreening National Geographics for me when I was ten years old. I still got to see most of the issues. But after I turned ten, I got full access, regardless of pictorial content.
Stupid workplace firewall. Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
This from a man who routinely eats primates of his own species?
Either this is an obscure reference to the eucharist -- in which case I say, dude, we all know it's a metaphore -- or I am as confused as Lisa. Please elaborate on this accusation of cannibalism.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Dude, Puppy is a Mormon. Everybody knows Mormons eat babies. In green Jello.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Oh. I didn't think people was supposed to know about that.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
Don't anyone tell the White House. Someone might order another preemptive strike. We would rather fight them now than in the streets of Kansas.
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
Nah, they're relatives of his.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
[ June 17, 2010, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Funny thing is I was thinking Britney Spears. Dang worthless celeb news!
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Dude, Puppy is a Mormon. Everybody knows Mormons eat babies. In green Jello.
Shhh! The jello is more a Utah thing, outside Utah they use a variety of condiments and sides with their babies.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
aspectre beat me too it. My first thought when I first read this was that Britney Spears first tries to look like one, now is acting like one.
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
devolution.
a beauti... wait. no. It is a horrifying thing.
the chimps are very impressive though. more so than the human.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Dude, Puppy is a Mormon. Everybody knows Mormons eat babies. In green Jello.
Shhh! The jello is more a Utah thing, outside Utah they use a variety of condiments and sides with their babies.
Precisely. For example, I've never had "fry sauce" on my baby. I prefer good ol' Heinz ketchup, or a cream sauce.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
You've never had monkey brains before? What's wrong with you?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Monkey brains, although popular in Cantonese cuisine, are not often found in Washington D.C.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tristan:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
This from a man who routinely eats primates of his own species?
Either this is an obscure reference to the eucharist -- in which case I say, dude, we all know it's a metaphore
No.
Posted by Lavalamp (Member # 4337) on :
Do you think we could train monkeys to fight our wars for us?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
This from a man who routinely eats primates of his own species?
*pokes KoM* Babies aren't primates.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Chimps Observed Hunting with Spears before trying it out on their own.
-pH
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
All babies are human; all humans are apes; all apes are primates. QED.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick:
quote:Originally posted by Tristan:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
This from a man who routinely eats primates of his own species?
Either this is an obscure reference to the eucharist -- in which case I say, dude, we all know it's a metaphore
No.
?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Monkey brains, although popular in Cantonese cuisine, are not often found in Washington D.C.
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: All babies are human
Uh . . .
Posted by RunningBear (Member # 8477) on :
How do you keep a baby from falling down a manhole?
Throw a javelin through its head.
Makes it easier to get to the brains too.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by RunningBear: How do you keep a baby from falling down a manhole?
Throw a javelin through its head.
What if it's a short javelin? Or a really big manhole?
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101:
quote:Originally posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick:
quote:Originally posted by Tristan:
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Puppy: I'm more disturbed by the idea of primates eating other primates. Ugh.
This from a man who routinely eats primates of his own species?
Either this is an obscure reference to the eucharist -- in which case I say, dude, we all know it's a metaphore
No.
?
Catholics, at least, don't believe that the eucharist is a metaphore or a symbol, but rather that it actually is the body and blood of Christ.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Well, by "metaphor" (yes, I spelled it wrong originally) I was including spiritual manifestations, however real they are deemed to be. Or are you saying Catholics claim that the bread and wine, once properly blessed, are indistinguishable from physical human flesh and blood? Because that would be kind of gross.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
The Neanderthals laughed all over their internet when we first picked up a spear, and look where it got them.
I say stop teaching them how to use a spear, and obliterate them all before they create WMD.
Haven't you seen the movie Planet of the Apes? Where do you think it all starts?
Haven't you seen the comic books that foretell Gorilla city and the rest.
Panic, my friends. Panic!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Well, by "metaphor" (yes, I spelled it wrong originally) I was including spiritual manifestations, however real they are deemed to be. Or are you saying Catholics claim that the bread and wine, once properly blessed, are indistinguishable from physical human flesh and blood?
Even that usage of metaphor is inaccurate as a description of Catholic beliefs. That doesn't mean that the second second sentence is the only alternative to a "spiritual manifestation."
quote:"Substance" here means what something is in itself. (For more on the philosophical concept, see Substance theory.) A hat's shape is not the hat itself, nor is its colour the hat, nor is its size, nor its softness to the touch, nor anything else about it perceptible to the senses. The hat itself (the "substance") has the shape, the colour, the size, the softness and the other appearances, but is distinct from them. While the appearances, which are referred to by the philosophical term accidents, are perceptible to the senses, the substance is not.
When at his Last Supper Jesus said: "This is my body", what he held in his hands had all the appearances of bread: these "accidents" remained unchanged. However, the Roman Catholic Church believes that, in accordance with what Jesus said, the underlying reality was changed: the "substance" of the bread was converted to that of his body. In other words, it actually was his body, while all the appearances open to the senses or to scientific investigation were still those of bread, exactly as before. The Church holds that the same change of the substance of the bread and of the wine occurs at the consecration of the Eucharist.
The bread is changed into Jesus' body, but, because Jesus, risen from the dead, is living, not only his body is present, but Jesus as a whole, body and blood, soul and divinity. The same holds for the wine changed into his blood.
In accordance with this belief that Christ is really, truly and substantially present under the remaining appearances of bread and wine, and continues to be present as long as those appearances remain, the Catholic Church preserves the consecrated elements, generally in a church tabernacle, for administering Holy Communion to the sick and dying, and also for the secondary, but still highly prized, purpose of adoring Christ present in the Eucharist.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Now some people may think I'm a bit off in the head, but when you combine spear using primates and arguments over religious dogma, well, it just can't end pretty.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Monkey brains, although popular in Cantonese cuisine, are not often found in Washington D.C.
Yay, someone got it! Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Indubitably.
The butler did it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Now some people may think I'm a bit off in the head, but when you combine spear using primates and arguments over religious dogma, well, it just can't end pretty.
Dan
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:Now some people may think I'm a bit off in the head, but when you combine spear using primates and arguments over religious dogma, well, it just can't end pretty.
Many thanks to Dan - I was wondering what kind of excuse I was going to have to come up with to post this link in this thread. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Monkey brains, although popular in Cantonese cuisine, are not often found in Washington D.C.
Yay, someone got it!
I got it too. It was just that the "...except in..." jokes were too easy.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Dagonee, the terms "substance" and "accidents" as used in the text you quoted seem, to me, to be interchangeable with the philosophical concepts of spirit and materia. I realise that "spiritual manifestations" has other connotations that may not fit with what is believed to happen during the transformation of bread and wine in connection with the Eucharist, but I still think this phrase -- or "metaphor" -- could be used as an umbrella term under which the Catholic conception of Eucharist could shelter. If you don't agree, that's fine with me. As long as no one -- except the Mormon's with their baby eating rituals, naturally -- is actually consuming human flesh it's all good.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Tristan, the spirit/material distinction is quite different from the substance/accident distinction, and they are not interchangeable.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
To regress to a bit earlier in the conversation (I haven't been around much, plus I am naturally slow), I really wonder about post-partum depression/psychosis with Brittney Spears. I wonder more why this hasn't been raised much as an issue.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I have wondered about that. Does using meth put you more at risk for that? Because several former meth users have told me that her recent behavior is pretty typical for meth users.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
You know, I have no idea. It's just something I think should be on the differential for any recent mother with unexpected and concerning behaviors.
Even if there is no reason to believe meth use would exacerbate the problem, they still could be co-existing causes. Depression has a long history of being treated by self-medication of one sort or another, too.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by Megan:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Monkey brains, although popular in Cantonese cuisine, are not often found in Washington D.C.
Yay, someone got it!
I got it too. It was just that the "...except in..." jokes were too easy.
I got it too! One of the best movies ever!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Well she did just go into rehab.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I thought (maybe wrongly so) that the rehab was just for substance abuse. If it's a good clinic, they'll evaluate for mood disorders as well. That's encouraging.
It's just that in my admittedly minimal reading about her problems in the mass media, I haven't seen much dicussion about PPD as a possibility. "Dooce" got me thinking about this, actually.
---
She gave birth in September of 2006, right? Just about one year after the prior birth, from what I'm reading.
From eMedicine on postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis may look like a maniac episode: "The condition resembles a rapidly evolving manic or mixed episode with symptoms such as restlessness and insomnia, irritability, rapidly shifting depressed or elated mood, and disorganized behavior." Onset would have been in the first few weeks after delivery, but it can wax and wane after that.
For comparison, an acute methamphetamine abuse episode also looks like mania: "Amphetamines stimulate the central nervous system (CNS), which results in one or more clinical effects: inducing euphoria; intensifying emotions; altering self-esteem; and increasing alertness, aggression, and sexual appetite." Sounds quite similar, actually.
[ February 24, 2007, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, the child endangerment would fit with PPD/PPP, for sure. But from what I've heard the hair-shaving-off has been done by more than one person on meth.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Which is one reason why it might well be a co-occurring problem, yes? I can well imagine a woman with PPD who had used meth in the past deciding to use it again, especially if she was not in a time of good judment for other reasons.
I'm not diagnosing her, mind you. I'm just surprised it wasn't raised as a possible reason.
I was also surprised that the discussions I saw (again, limited in my perspective about this) about the astronaut who kidnapped another woman didn't seem to consider the possibility of psychosis. They seemed -- at least by my read -- to assume her behavior was fully under her control.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I agree that it could definitely be self-medication (although I've known more women to self-medicate with alcohol than with meth, but then I don't know a LOT of illegal drug users) and, for what it's worth, I've heard the possibility of PPD/PPP raised in most conversations I've been in about her for more than a year now. (When I haven't raised it myself.)
I didn't even hear about the other, but I think I would ASSUME psychosis first in a case like that...
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Well, that's reassuring! *grin (I mean that PPD/PPP was being raised in many conversations and that you, too, would think of psychosis as well.)
I think I need to get out more. Or, at least, get my c'leb gossip from more thoughtful sources. Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
What is this thread about, really?
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: What is this thread about, really?
I don't know. I think Britney Spears killed some chimps and tried to eat her baby.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Ah! You might be unfamiliar with the concept of "thread drift," which -- although not unique to Hatrack -- has a long and vast history here. Let me see if I can find some links for you.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
If Britney spent more time with primates learning to make spears and hunt for food, and less time with Paris Hilton learning to be a pathetic waste of human life, she and her baby would both be much better off.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Babies.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I certainly wouldn't recommend making many of her public choices if one is seeking lasting happiness.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
I'm familiar with it, Claudia. There have been few threads that I have been involved in that didn't drift in this manner.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I gotta admit, I love the thread drift. Though it means that I've probably missed some interesting conversations that started out as threads I checked and decided that I didn't care about enough to read again.
Besides, you can always steer the conversation back to the original topic if you want.
Whether or not Spears has post-partum mental health problems, it's always a good thing to raise awareness and to have compassion for those who do. Having depression or other similar illnesses can really make it hard to do even the most basic things--I can't imagine trying to take care of a baby while depressed.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Okay, then, Reshpeckobiggle. I was struggling with the HR search engine -- never a pretty thing. *grin
Shigosei, I agree. And sometimes depression is agitated (not the more typically thought-of scenario of slowing down and freezing up). Additionally, it looks like post-partum psychosis is associated with bipolar disorder, in which the mania would definitely not look like depression and might lead someone to assume it could not be related to postpartum issues.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
Well, ClaudiaTherese, at least the thread drifted in the right direction. People here are talking seriously about Post-Partum Depression now. It could have been another mindless celebrity-based thread.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
And now, oranghumans Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Clue is one of those films that movie reviewers disdained heavily. DVDs of it can be bought dirt cheap. And yet...everyone I know personally who's seen it loves it.
Me included. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Cool link, aspectre; thanks!
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Clue is one of those films that movie reviewers disdained heavily. DVDs of it can be bought dirt cheap. And yet...everyone I know personally who's seen it loves it.
Me included.
a swhat?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"a swhat?"
I definitely don't know either. I searched recent posts for the word "clue" to see if he was responding to a post in a different thread by accident, but no such luck. I am currently attributing it to the recent adoption of crack-smoking as a sacrament in Puffy's ward. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The European Court of Human Rights has agreed to hear whether chimpanzees are legally persons. Interestingly, this might well be just the right level of hard case for the EU Court to win respect for its own (future) assertions of preeminence. ie A ruling in favor of the chimp would not be explosive enough for the politicians to dismiss the Court out of hand (except for campaign posturing), yet would torque off LARGE numbers of the people those politicians must cater to.
[ May 25, 2008, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Note that Santino not only collects rocks for his weapons cache but also breaks&shapes concrete to make his own missiles.
"[Forward planning] implies that [chimpanzees] have a highly developed consciousness, including life-like mental simulations of potential events," Dr Osvath said. "They most probably have an 'inner world' like we have when reviewing past episodes of our lives or thinking of days to come..."
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: The European Court of Human Rights has agreed to hear whether chimpanzees are legally persons. Interestingly, this might well be just the right level of hard case for the EU Court to win respect for its own (future) assertions of preeminence. ie A ruling in favor of the chimp would not be explosive enough for the politicians to dismiss the Court out of hand (except for campaign posturing), yet would torque off LARGE numbers of the people those politicians must cater to.
I have a friend who likes to say that he is fully behind giving Chimps "human" status the moment they can present their own arguments.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: The European Court of Human Rights has agreed to hear whether chimpanzees are legally persons. Interestingly, this might well be just the right level of hard case for the EU Court to win respect for its own (future) assertions of preeminence. ie A ruling in favor of the chimp would not be explosive enough for the politicians to dismiss the Court out of hand (except for campaign posturing), yet would torque off LARGE numbers of the people those politicians must cater to.
I have a friend who likes to say that he is fully behind giving Chimps "human" status the moment they can present their own arguments.
Considering that chimps have successfully been taught ASL with some degree of fluency, it may not be too far off...
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Do you have a link for that, kq? I've heard of gorillas and bonobos learning a few hundred signs, but that's not the same thing as learning sign language.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
It's been nearly a year since the European Court of Human Rights had agreed to review the Austrian Supreme Court's decision that chimps are only property, yet still no news generated since then concerning the progress of the case.
Karta uses a stick to twist wires together to short-circuit an electric fence designed to prevent escape from her enclosure. More tellingly, she seems to recognize the purpose of guards armed with (tranquilizer) guns.
[ May 11, 2009, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Noticed possibly deliberate editorializing in the reportage: The Mirror and SkyNews used stones and pounds to report Karta's weight, though the other UK news reports (that I've seen) used kilograms. In the UK*nowadays, stones and pounds are most commonly used to describe weight of humans, and kilograms are commonly used to describe weights of other things. May not have been deliberate: coulda been a subconcious grouping of orangutans in with humans, which'd be revealing in itself. * Or could be I've misunderstood what I've been told about common useage.
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