Some of them can get quite long. Is it expected that people try and pronounce the whole thing or what?
[ March 06, 2007, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
What is up with you for like the past year, Storm?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I sense a pissing match in the making.... Fortunately for me, I have no desire to get in one.
I am genuinely curious.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I have known several people who used hyphenated last names to still be who they were before they were married, in a professional sense, and also take their husband's last name. Or because the mother did not have the same last name as the father for whatever reason and they wanted the children to have both names for both parents.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I think that people want to both hold on to their own identity and link that identity to their spouses. It is useful for people with professional reputations under one name, and family connections under another. For example: someone who has published under an unmarried name of "Smith", is married to someone named "Jones" and has children named "Jones". Makes sense to use both names.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
So, what is proper protocol for pronunciation? Both? Seems really unwieldy.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
For some people "unwieldy" is less of a consideration than identity. Call them whatever they want to be called.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I guess.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I wouldn't reccomend calling anyone by initials or leaving out sylables of their name unless that is what they want. Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
Just call everyone "Bob." It is gender neutral and less confusing.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
The problem, though, is that it's kind of awkward to ask them how they would like their name pronounced, wouldn't you think? I was kind of hoping there was some kind of SOP where only the first bit was used. Or something.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
From the very few people I've known with hyphenated last names, it's been acceptable to call them by just the first one.
I usually introduced them with both. I figured if it was important enough to them to deal with all the crap they must deal with to get both names on everything important, the least I could do was remember them both.
And, since I go by both my first and middle name, I empathize.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
A friend of mine's father died when he was still a baby. A priest fell in love with his mother, gave up the cloth, married her, and raised my friend as his own son. My friend later changed his original last name and ADDED his adopted father's name, hyphenating the two. This was a great way to honor both men.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
SOP is to use both names as one. Kind of like Mary Jane is two names that make up one.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I think the SOP is to pronounce the name as best you can in accordance with how it is presented to you. So, for example, if reading "Mrs. Pffaflin-Heideggerjones" from a list, I would try to pronounce "Mrs. Pffaflin-Heideggerjones" as best I could (without abbreviating it or shortening it) and rely on the individual to correct me as she saw fit, if appropriate. She might say, "It's 'paff-lin-high-digger-jones,' but you can call me 'Kate,'" or something else, or nothing. You just work with what you get.
---
Edited to add: You are always presented with someone else's name, either on a document (e.g., list of attendees, nametag that the person is wearing, or what have you) or verbally (e.g., as in an introduction or by the person in question offering his/her own name). Whatever name was used at the initial presentation was deemed appropriate, at least for an initial presentation, and it is appropriate to continue using that name unless you are presented with good reason to do otherwise.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
My daughter's last name is hyphenated, because it's made up of my last name and my partner's last name. How else would we do it? I mean, I know people who've adopted a common name (and that's what taking the husband's name is, too), but both my partner and I have fought hard to establish who we are, and neither one of us wanted to give up our names.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I think you're supposed to call Mr. Jones-Smith "Jones-Smith." It does get clunky after a while, especially with names like Gmytrasiewicz-Kuropatwinski.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Lisa, I respect that. However, it seems like that rather than have two separate names which keep both of your identities there, you have one big, long convoluted last name that is for all practical a different last name.
I don't know. Is this a touchy subject? I apologize if it is. I mean no offense.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I think of it as a small courtesy from my perspective, but one that may be quite important from the perspective of the other person. No matter (to me) why it is important to that person -- what matters is that it is (or even just may be) important to the other.
It's only a matter of a few syllables and a few seconds to me, but the symbolism behind those syllables and seconds may have great meaning to another. In the context, the choice is easy for me.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, I have no problem in doing it, of course. I just feel kind of awkward about the whole subject.
I guess my main question would be, if the last name is almost certainly going to be mangled by me, is it better that I try first and then ask, or ask first?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It's not touchy. Look, it happens that we both have short last names. Mine is Liel (two syllables), and hers is Hope (one syllable). So Hope-Liel isn't that long of a name. My last name used to be Aaronson (8 letters-3 syllables), and hers used to be 7 letters and 2 syllables. If we still had those names, Tova's last name would be really long. But then, if we hadn't adopted new last names before we met, maybe we would have chosen a common name together. Who knows?
The only thing that happens sometimes is that people think Hope is Tova's middle name.
She has a schoolmate whose last name is Altgold. And yes, the girl's parents are surnamed Alt and Gold, respectively. There are all sorts of ways to do it nowadays.
I have a friend from summer camp who agreed with her husband that the boys would take his last name and the girls would take hers. One day, she got two calls in a row from the doctor's office with reminders to make appointments for the kids. They didn't realize that the children were siblings. I don't think I'd want to do it that way, but I guess it works for them.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I think (and this is just a guess on my part) that an honest attempt to say it all and attempt to do it correctly is most often appreciated. It seems to be a nod of deference to the other person's personal choice, as it conforms to the initial presentation while giving the other person the opportunity to clarify his or her wishes as he or she desires.
That is, it's a subtle way of saying "I will call you what you wish to be called instead of what is easiest for me." That strikes me as a politeness.
I'm more than willing to be corrected on this perspective, by the way.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I took my hubby's name because I felt it was important for both of us (and any children that come along) to have the same last name and he wasn't going to give up his, even though it sucks. One name shows unity. That We Are A Family. That's more important to me than holding on to my dad's family name.
First generation of hyphenated names isn't that bad when you're name is Smith-Jones... but the next generation will be Smith-Jones-Johnson-Chen, and the next generation starts to get really really unweildy.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Lisa: Why not create a composite name like AltGold but omit some of the letters to make it fit better.
Hopiel sounds kinda pleasant to my ears.
I think Algold sounds betters then Altgold.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
You should try to say the whole thing. Not only is it polite to call people what they want to be called (as ClaudiaTherese says) but it can be particularly insulting to do otherwise with hyphenated names.
People generally have hyphenated names because it's important to them to be known by both. Through arbitrarily shortening to one or the other you are saying that that part isn't important.
My wife and I have different last names so we hyphenated my son's last name. As uncommon as this seems in the US it's very common is some countries (I know lot of people from Argentina and they don't change their names). I don't think that we are less of a family/couple etc because of this, but then we cut the whole "beat with one heart"/"be of the same cup" thing out of our wedding - we prefer to think that our hearts beat together and that we drink from the same cup but that we are still our own people.
Anyway, should someone arbitrarily decide to drop one half of my son's last name I personally woudn't let it bother me too much but it's still mildly insulting... and my wife would probably be more hurt should it be her name that was dropped. We named him the way we did because he is a product of our union and to remove part of that takes away from that idea.
But ultimately I get more upset at people who take liberties and should know better - like people who are introduces to someone one way and then address then another. If I introduce you to my friend Robert then don't go calling him Bob or Rob, if that was what we wanted you to call him we'd have told you that was his name. Similarly if we wanted you to call our son by my last name or my wife's last name we wouldn't have bothered to hyphenate.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I took my hubby's name because I felt it was important for both of us (and any children that come along) to have the same last name and he wasn't going to give up his, even though it sucks. One name shows unity. That We Are A Family. That's more important to me than holding on to my dad's family name.
First generation of hyphenated names isn't that bad when you're name is Smith-Jones... but the next generation will be Smith-Jones-Johnson-Chen, and the next generation starts to get really really unweildy.
I had not even considered that! Wow.
quote: It's not touchy. Look, it happens that we both have short last names. Mine is Liel (two syllables), and hers is Hope (one syllable). So Hope-Liel isn't that long of a name. My last name used to be Aaronson (8 letters-3 syllables), and hers used to be 7 letters and 2 syllables. If we still had those names, Tova's last name would be really long. But then, if we hadn't adopted new last names before we met, maybe we would have chosen a common name together. Who knows?
The only thing that happens sometimes is that people think Hope is Tova's middle name.
She has a schoolmate whose last name is Altgold. And yes, the girl's parents are surnamed Alt and Gold, respectively. There are all sorts of ways to do it nowadays.
I have a friend from summer camp who agreed with her husband that the boys would take his last name and the girls would take hers. One day, she got two calls in a row from the doctor's office with reminders to make appointments for the kids. They didn't realize that the children were siblings. I don't think I'd want to do it that way, but I guess it works for them.
I actually haven't had to actually address someone with a hyphenated last name in 'real life', yet, and had never really given it much thought. That's why I made this thread, because it seemed kind of interesting to me in a lot of different respects.
Names are important, and to me personally, it seemed interesting to combine two names in such a fashion. But I can definitely understand why a person would want to keep their last name with, one would assume, its own rich tradition.
What do you think of Pixiest's point? If your method of last name started to catch on, what would be the best way to add two hyphenated names together, if at all?
On the other hand, I know many women look forward to changing their names because they hate them, or just because it's part of the whole marriage fantasy.
As a kind of confirmed bachelor guy, it's not something that I've ever really thought about and, in any case, I guess the central question is the one I put to CT.
quote: I think (and this is just a guess on my part) that an honest attempt to say it all and attempt to do it correctly is most often appreciated. It seems to be a nod of deference to the other person's personal choice, as it conforms to the initial presentation while giving the other person the opportunity to clarify his or her wishes as he or she desires.
That is, it's a subtle way of saying "I will call you what you wish to be called instead of what is easiest for me." That strikes me as a politeness.
I'm more than willing to be corrected on this perspective, by the way.
People are insanely protective about their last names. A name that is difficult to pronounce is, for many it seems, a source of irritation. So, I never really know what the best path is.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I will never hyphenate my last name - Pilkington is simply too long to tack anything else on to it.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Lisa: Why not create a composite name like AltGold but omit some of the letters to make it fit better.
Hopiel sounds kinda pleasant to my ears.
I think Algold sounds betters then Altgold.
You don't have an ear for Jewish names. Trust me, with a name like Altgold, I never would have known it was a composite name. Algold would have made me go "huh?"
Anyway, I picked Liel for numerous reasons. I like it. It suits me. Hope-Liel keeps both of our names intact. I wouldn't be averse to having all three of us use Hope-Liel, but it doesn't seem necessary.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My cousin hyphenated her last name, and gave her kids the hyphenated last name. However, in most of their personal correspondence, at church (she's the minister's wife), and on school forms and such, the kids (and often she as well) will usually go by the husband's last name only. (She has a long last name and the husband's is middle-length.) So I'm not quite sure why she did that, other than she started it with the first kid and now wants them all to match...
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
My wife wanted to keep her last name, since she regards it as a connection to her cultural heritage, and feels regret that the name will most likely end with her (she has no siblings, and her uncles are unlikely at this point to get married or have kids). She didn't wish to hyphenate, however, and opted to adopt my last name as hers, and change her maiden name to a second middle name. It does not solve the problem of continuing past her life, but she still is satisfied in keeping her old name involved.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: People are insanely protective about their last names. A name that is difficult to pronounce is, for many it seems, a source of irritation. So, I never really know what the best path is.
Sure, you may get it wrong, but if it's hard to pronounce, you wouldn't be the first.
In contrast, if you call someone by a name other than the one you were presented with (see above), it seems like it isn't a good faith effort from the beginning.
---
Edited to add:
I think just_me's analogy to calling someone introduced as "Robert" by "Rob" or "Bob" is a quite apt one.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: But ultimately I get more upset at people who take liberties and should know better - like people who are introduces to someone one way and then address then another. If I introduce you to my friend Robert then don't go calling him Bob or Rob, if that was what we wanted you to call him we'd have told you that was his name. Similarly if we wanted you to call our son by my last name or my wife's last name we wouldn't have bothered to hyphenate.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: My wife wanted to keep her last name, since she regards it as a connection to her cultural heritage, and feels regret that the name will most likely end with her (she has no siblings, and her uncles are unlikely at this point to get married or have kids). She didn't wish to hyphenate, however, and opted to adopt my last name as hers, and change her maiden name to a second middle name. It does not solve the problem of continuing past her life, but she still is satisfied in keeping her old name involved.
Interesting.
I have to admit, I do feel sorry for the ladies. I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:She didn't wish to hyphenate, however, and opted to adopt my last name as hers, and change her maiden name to a second middle name.
I took my maiden name as my middle name when I got married. My birth middle name was my mom's last name (she didn't change to my dad's, at all.) My mom's last and my married last start with the same letter. I didn't like the alliteration, and felt if I was going to have a last for a middle name, it might as well be my maiden. So my initials went from AHL to ALH.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote: You don't have an ear for Jewish names.
Nope, I am not aware of any Jews in my ancestry either, so I suppose its not in my blood to hear good Jewish names.
But then again, I am not 100% sure how I feel about naming people at all. On one hand I think its moderately ridiculous that people draw from a pool of names that change by the decade with few lasting more then a century. But on the other my wife is all about creating new names for our children to have and every name she comes up with scares me.
I will probably accept the system like a coward.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
Last I saw it was somewhere between 1 and 2 percent. Some guy here is suing to make it as easy to do that as for the wife to take the husband's last. There's no real debate that it's going to happen. I think four states already allow it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote: I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
Last I saw it was somewhere between 1 and 2 percent. Some guy here is suing to make it as easy to do that as for the wife to take the husband's last. There's no real debate that it's going to happen. I think four states already allow it.
Huh? Is there a problem with husbands taking their wives' last name?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: People are insanely protective about their last names. A name that is difficult to pronounce is, for many it seems, a source of irritation. So, I never really know what the best path is.
Sure, you may get it wrong, but if it's hard to pronounce, you wouldn't be the first.
In contrast, if you call someone by a name other than the one you were presented with (see above), it seems like it isn't a good faith effort from the beginning.
---
Edited to add:
I think just_me's analogy to calling someone introduced as "Robert" by "Rob" or "Bob" is a quite apt one.
quote:Originally posted by just_me: But ultimately I get more upset at people who take liberties and should know better - like people who are introduces to someone one way and then address then another. If I introduce you to my friend Robert then don't go calling him Bob or Rob, if that was what we wanted you to call him we'd have told you that was his name. Similarly if we wanted you to call our son by my last name or my wife's last name we wouldn't have bothered to hyphenate.
Oh, if I were introduced to someone as such and such, I wouldn't presume. I was speaking more of when you have to try and pronounce someone's name after seeing it written down but before you hear it pronounced. The whole bit about chopping one part off was a little tongue in cheek on my part.
At this point, my dilemma is really ask first, or mangle it first and let them correct?
I've been leaning towards the asking first, but from the responses on this thread, maybe I should just soldier on and give it my best shot.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Storm, Sorry if I read you wrong here, but you've been coming off, to me, as pretty pissy for the last 10 months or so, and that's the personality I'm used to from you. I've been wondering if there's anything behind it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, that's just you. Everyone loves me at Hatrack , cause I'm overflowing with the milk of human kindness. Have a sip.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote: I imagine very few men change their last names to their wives's last names.
Last I saw it was somewhere between 1 and 2 percent. Some guy here is suing to make it as easy to do that as for the wife to take the husband's last. There's no real debate that it's going to happen. I think four states already allow it.
Huh? Is there a problem with husbands taking their wives' last name?
A wife can change to her husband's last name (and at the same time, change her middle name or whatever) when she marries with no additional cost but the regular cost of filing marriage documents and the cost of a new SS card, but in most states a husband has to go before a judge, file complicated paperwork, and pay a fee (in CA, I think it is upward of $200) to change his name at the time of marriage, same as any other time. The man suing argues that this violates gender equality provisions or something (and I agree) and wants them to add a space to the forms for a husband to change his name like there is for a wife and make the process equal, so if he wants to change to hers, or they both want to change to a new or hyphenated name, the process is as easy for him as it would be for her.
As a result of the suit I believe legislation is already in the works.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I like you. I used to look forward to your posts and I was happy to see you posting again. Lately, you've just seemed, to me, like you've got a chip on your shoulder about something.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It's actually not too uncommon for an entire family to take the mother's maiden name in Japan. I knew a family where the husband's parents disowned them for becoming Christian so they (the couple and the child) switched to the wife's maiden name. And no one thought it all that odd.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I have a hyphenated name. My kids just have my husband's name, which I admit was I wish was different. I don't know about the boys but when my daughter is of age I will suggest that if she wishes to add my maternomer to her name, I'd pay for it. I really prefer people to use my whole name. Few do. Further, those who do only wish to use one name almost exclusivley use my husband's, when I wish the would use mine.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
And then there's the weird Utah thing where the boy children all get the mother's maiden name as a middle name and the girls don't get a middle name. Then, when they get married their maiden name becomes their middle name.
I always thought that kind of nice and egalitarian, but I'm glad my family didn't do it or my brothers would be saddled with the middle name Fleischer.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I like you. I used to look forward to your posts and I was happy to see you posting again. Lately, you've just seemed, to me, like you've got a chip on your shoulder about something.
I do have a chip on my shoulder, but it's not something that can be resolved with people here, so I just does my best.
I'll try to be less abrasive, though. Thanks for the heads up.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Say, wonder what the etymology of that phrase is? 'Chip on your shoulder'?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: It's actually not too uncommon for an entire family to take the mother's maiden name in Japan. I knew a family where the husband's parents disowned them for becoming Christian so they (the couple and the child) switched to the wife's maiden name. And no one thought it all that odd.
My brother took his (Japanese) wife's name in Japan, and she took his name in America.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
My brothers all have various maiden names from my mother's side for their middle names. The result is really cool: Kenton Steele, Todd Parker, and Steven Dare.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I think I would like to give my future sons my mother's maiden name as a middle name, but not mine, I love my last name but it wouldn't make a middle name.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: My brothers all have various maiden names from my mother's side for their middle names. The result is really cool: Kenton Steele, Todd Parker, and Steven Dare.
Wow, those are awesome middle names.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I have a hyphenated last name and no middle name.
My grandfather died a few days before I got married and he didn't have a middle name. I also didn't want to lose my last name, as it's been a part of my identity for my whole life. So when I got married, I legally changed my name by taking away my middle name and making my last name hyphenated (well, spaced, actually. legally, there's no hyphen, just the two last names).
When people shorten my last name (and always in favor of my husband's name) it pisses me off because that is not my name if you shorten it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Answers!
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Dammit! I knew that!
How'm I supposed to show off if you don't wait for me to answer?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I didn't have your url to type the questions into.
If you get on the ball, though, you can be like Dan Savage.
'Dear JT,
Is it wrong for me to have a fetish for Wilford Brimley?'
Yours,
Brimley Luvin' Overtime'
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
" will never hyphenate my last name - Pilkington is simply too long to tack anything else on to it."
Ummm... Pilkington-Smith is a pretty common name around here Pretty sure I've heard other names tacked on as well. Pilkington-Smith is the family name though; it's not a combination of parents names. Maybe we hear about England's upper classes all too often though, as they seem to often have hyphenated names. Saint-John is the tricky one for me... it's pronounced Sinjon
"Oh, if I were introduced to someone as such and such, I wouldn't presume. I was speaking more of when you have to try and pronounce someone's name after seeing it written down but before you hear it pronounced. The whole bit about chopping one part off was a little tongue in cheek on my part. [Smile] " So how do you get on when you've seen someone's Christian name written down before you've heard it pronounced? Do automatically say Cah-Ren or Car-Ren when you see Karen on the page?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Stacey, where is "around here"? Are you in England?
It's an English name - maybe that means over there people don't panic at the sight of it. That would be nice. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, clearly the same problem exists with non-hyphenated names. I don't mean to give the impression that it's just people with hyphenated names.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
" On one hand I think its moderately ridiculous that people draw from a pool of names that change by the decade with few lasting more then a century ." You mean like: Peter? John? Mathew? Sarah? Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Say, wonder what the etymology of that phrase is? 'Chip on your shoulder'?
I think it has something to do with chocolate. Hopefully.
(Or is that the PMS talking? )
---
Rats. No chocolate in sight. *broods
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Stacey, come on. Be nice.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
Kathrina, sorry, I should have said. No, not England, New Zealand.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
For what it's worth, I expect you could go either way and still be polite, Storm Saxon. A lot is in the delivery.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by stacey: Do automatically say Cah-Ren or Car-Ren when you see Karen on the page?
Neither. I'd pronounce that as "KAIR-uhn"
Storm, I've noticed the same thing that Squick is talking about. I'm sorry that you've got something going on in your life that is impacting you in that way.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I hope it gets better soon, Storm Saxon. (I, too, had noticed this.)
I've been through periods of extreme irritability, and it tends to flood all aspects of my life. There was no getting away from it -- not in dreams, not at play, and certainly not at work. Like having chronic pain. The worst part was that pretty soon I'd start forgetting what life could be like without it.
On the other hand, it made things like road rage and other extremes of behavior much more understandable to me.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, how very kind of you all to say. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Maybe try putting a chocolate chip on your shoulder. It just may help. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Maybe it'll attract chicks.
*rubs chin thoughtfully*
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
*hiding in the bushes, ready to attack all those defenseless chocolate chips*
-pH
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I didn't have your url to type the questions into.
Scandalous!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
My brother changed his last name to his wife's. We haven't talked about it, so I don't know his reasoning, but I suspect the fact that our family name is impossible to pronounce and spell at the same time (despite being only five letters long) might have something to do with it.
When I got married, I'd already legally changed my last name to something else I liked (see above comment about impossible to spell and pronounce), so I added Fahim's last name on to the end, much like mackillian. No hyphen, just a space.
Socially, I'll go by his last name - it's easier. Professionally, I go by mine. This way, there are no hassles, especially at the bank, if/when I get cheques (for example) with either last name.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I didn't like my previous middle name, so I moved my maiden name into my middle name slot. I'm actually quite fond of my name now. I had easier-to-spell choices, though; every single one of my names (except for the discarded middle name) is difficult to spell, and at least moderately difficult to pronounce.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Wow, neat. I don't know if I could be so flexible as to change my name.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Hmm. That should've been "I had NO easier-to-spell choices."
While a portion of my sense of identity is tied up in my first name, the bulk of it is attached less to my name(s) and more to ...other things. The name is just a tiny bit of that, a shorthand. And I didn't think of the middle name as "me" at all.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
You're talking about my brother? Well, I was surprised - he's not exactly the most open guy around, ya know? He's the family redneck complete with 4x4 and rifle rack... Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't have a hyphenated last name; I have two last names. It's the norm in my culture and it has been for hundreds of years (and we don't have dozens of names to show for it, contrary to the earlier post!) The custom in most hispanic cultures is you get your father's last name and your mother's maiden name. Honestly, I've always thought this was really cool.
Now, in practice, I just use my father's last name like most other Americans. My name is hard enough without adding to it. As for naming children, and not having tons of names, they way it works for is is my children would have my last name followed by my wife's father's last name. My mother's last name and my mother-in-law's last name would be lost to the children at that point, but then, they would have been anyway, right? At least we kept it around for an extra generation. The "family unity" is still there, because we would all still have my last name (i.e., my father's last name). We just would have different "second" last names.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:the bulk of it is attached less to my name(s) and more to ...other things.
*giggles* *considers the OOC thread*
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Pardon my ignorance, but why do people use them?
Because they want to.
quote: Some of them can get quite long. Is it expected that people try and pronounce the whole thing or what?
Yes.
Before I got married, my last name was Grant-Ricks. I used the last names of both my mother and father, who were divorced. I chose this name when I was seven because I wanted to be a writer and thought that two last names would look better on a book cover than just one. I still intend to write under that name if I ever get published, but probably without the hyphen.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
By the way, just about everybody had a much easier time pronouncing my hyphenated last name (Grant-Ricks) than they do pronouncing my married last name (Mistretta). So hyphenation does not equal difficulty in pronounciation.
I have a friend whose last name is now Minkiewicz-Breunig. I dare you to even try to pronounce that one correctly! I'm not sure even she can some of the time. She kept the Minkiewicz part after she married because she was widely known in her profession by that very easy-to-spot name - but her name was no easier to pronounce before she hyphenated it; it just gained more syllables after.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
She's Sara MB, or Mink, no one says Minkiwicz- Breunig. And I'm sure I've linked her site on here before.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Hmm. That should've been "I had NO easier-to-spell choices."
While a portion of my sense of identity is tied up in my first name, the bulk of it is attached less to my name(s) and more to ...other things. The name is just a tiny bit of that, a shorthand. And I didn't think of the middle name as "me" at all.
Interesting. I have a very common last name, Baxter, but I think it means a lot to my dad's side of the family. I genuinely think my dad would be upset if I changed my last name.
quote: I don't have a hyphenated last name; I have two last names. It's the norm in my culture and it has been for hundreds of years (and we don't have dozens of names to show for it, contrary to the earlier post!) The custom in most hispanic cultures is you get your father's last name and your mother's maiden name. Honestly, I've always thought this was really cool.
Now, in practice, I just use my father's last name like most other Americans. My name is hard enough without adding to it. [Smile] As for naming children, and not having tons of names, they way it works for is is my children would have my last name followed by my wife's father's last name. My mother's last name and my mother-in-law's last name would be lost to the children at that point, but then, they would have been anyway, right? At least we kept it around for an extra generation. The "family unity" is still there, because we would all still have my last name (i.e., my father's last name). We just would have different "second" last names.
That actually sounds pretty cool, kind of keeping the wife's side of the family in the equation for a while.
Plus, it's all in Spanish, which seems to be pretty much tailor made for just stringing a bunch of words together so they flow.
Plus, it's fairly phonetic, so it's usually pretty easy to spell.
***********************************
*amused* It's kind of interesting that people seem to focus on the original post to the exclusion of everything else I've written.
O.K., I get that you guys with hyphenated last names want them to be used, but I am actually curious about what the forum consensus is on difficult to pronounce names, hyphenated or not. Do you think it's more polite that people ask to begin with how to pronounce it, or do you expect them to at least make an attempt?
The reason that I ask this is that this problem comes up with some frequency. People get irritated if their name isn't pronounced correctly or if someone asks how their name is spelled. Of the two, it seems like people get way more irritated if their name is mispronounced. That's part of the reason that, before this thread, I've kind of been leaning towards that it's better to ask first.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I've got an extremely difficult to pronounce and spell last name . . . and I honestly don't know the answer to your question. I'll have to do some soul-searching to come up with one.
My off-the-cuff reply is that I won't get annoyed with people who attempt to pronounce it and get it wrong, with some notable exceptions. Chief among these is that if you somehow think that my last name seems to you like it should be pronounced like an insult or a slur, you should ask me before you say it that way. I also encourage people to attempt to use the letters that are actually there, instead of an entirely different set of letters. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Thanks.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:I get that you guys with hyphenated last names want them to be used
*nods* Yeah, since mine are spaced, I'm already not included.
quote:I am actually curious about what the forum consensus is on difficult to pronounce names, hyphenated or not. Do you think it's more polite that people ask to begin with how to pronounce it, or do you expect them to at least make an attempt?
With my born-with impossible to spell/pronounce name, I was more amused at attempts than anything else. The only people who ever got it right were people who knew people with the last name. Even after corrections, it was extremely unlikely that anyone would be able to spell/pronounce on the first five tries.
Either way, I didn't care. Although, honestly, I laughed a lot. Not AT people, but at the circumstances. And occasionally made fun of the really obnoxious ones. But if someone was trying, either way, then it was fine.
I mean, seriously, I KNOW my name was difficult to pronounce/spell. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Of course everyone's gonna mess it up. So what? Carry on...
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
So, put you in the 'doesn't matter' column?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Hmmmm. My last name has all of five letters in it, but people don't actually believe it could BE my last name, so they mispronounce it in a wide variety of ways.
My former husband absolutely refused to hyphenate his last name (or change it) along with me, and since I am the last of that name for this particular line, I didn't want to change to his, so we both kept our original last names . . . which was a bone of contention pre-marriage, all through marriage, and post-marriage. Except for me, since it meant I didn't spend lots of time and some money changing my name to his and then back to mine.
If you can discreetly confirm the pronunciation of said name, Saxy, I'd do so -- before the introductions. Save the embarrassment for other things, y'know.
And for what it's worth, I don't think you're any crankier than usual -- but I'm always cranky, and you're always nice to me, so I'm probably prejudiced, anyhow.
P.S. Would you consider fixing the spelling in the thread title? Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I also encourage people to attempt to use the letters that are actually there, instead of an entirely different set of letters.
My last name is actually very easy to pronounce and is quite phonetic, but people insist on adding letters (usually an "n" for some reason). That annoys me a bit, but I don't make a big deal out of it.
My first name is very common, but my mother gave me a less common spelling (Lorie). Again, it never bothers me much, except a while ago I was going through old school records (report cards, academic awards, etc) and my first name was misspelled on every last one of them. (Lori) I mean, it's not like they didn't have my official records or anything. The vital records department for the great state of Idaho spelled it wrong on my youngest daughter's birth certificate and the state of Hawaii wouldn't accept it when we went in to get her learner's permit at the DMV, so I had to send in a notarized "change" along with "proof" of the correct spelling (in case I'm wrong or something). Ironically, one of the things they would accept as proof was school records, which of course, were all wrong. Fortunately, my driver's license is correct, but it wasn't at first - they spelled it wrong and I had to have them change it. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
My younger daughter's name is spelled wrong all over the place, including on many of the adoption records. I have been unable to e-file most of the last few years, because the IRS is convinced I am spelling it wrong. Every year I go through a rigamarole to fix it, and every year it ends up still wrong. I have not attempted to file yet this year; guess we'll see.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'll admit I don't have a lot of patience in particular for teachers who do not learn to spell and develop a reasonably close pronunciation for the name of every child they teach (within a reasonable amount of time). I mean, if there's a disability or something, I guess I can be more understanding, but if I can manage to learn the names of 150 kids each year, usually within the first week of school, my kids' teachers should dang well be able to learn the names of 30. (And I don't have a good memory, for names or for anything else--except spelling.)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shan: Hmmmm. My last name has all of five letters in it, but people don't actually believe it could BE my last name, so they mispronounce it in a wide variety of ways.
My former husband absolutely refused to hyphenate his last name (or change it) along with me, and since I am the last of that name for this particular line, I didn't want to change to his, so we both kept our original last names . . . which was a bone of contention pre-marriage, all through marriage, and post-marriage. Except for me, since it meant I didn't spend lots of time and some money changing my name to his and then back to mine.
If you can discreetly confirm the pronunciation of said name, Saxy, I'd do so -- before the introductions. Save the embarrassment for other things, y'know.
And for what it's worth, I don't think you're any crankier than usual -- but I'm always cranky, and you're always nice to me, so I'm probably prejudiced, anyhow.
P.S. Would you consider fixing the spelling in the thread title?
Thanks, Shan...I think.
*squints at thread title* You are pulling Storm's leg, I believe.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
The chip on the shoulder means someone's spoiling for a fight. Apparently when people were daring someone to fight them, they would actually place a chip of wood on their shoulder. If the would-be opponent knocked it off, the fight was on. At least, that's how it worked in The Great Brain series. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I'll admit I don't have a lot of patience in particular for teachers who do not learn to spell and develop a reasonably close pronunciation for the name of every child they teach (within a reasonable amount of time). I mean, if there's a disability or something, I guess I can be more understanding, but if I can manage to learn the names of 150 kids each year, usually within the first week of school, my kids' teachers should dang well be able to learn the names of 30. (And I don't have a good memory, for names or for anything else--except spelling.)
To be fair, I think there are some people who are...not very facile with their tongues, shall we say? For instance, my last name 'Baxter' gets mispronounced somewhat frequently, and as for spelling, people ask me how to spell it *all* the time.
I can only imagine the nightmare that people with, uh, more difficulter names have.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: The chip on the shoulder means someone's spoiling for a fight. Apparently when people were daring someone to fight them, they would actually place a chip of wood on their shoulder. If the would-be opponent knocked it off, the fight was on. At least, that's how it worked in The Great Brain series.
Thanks.
On a related note, I do know that when people 'cross the line', that may or may not refer to people actually making a line in the sand in front of them and then daring the other person to step over it towards them.
(Saw it on Bugs Bunny.)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
If it were a serious impediment, I'd be sympathetic. But like I said, I struggle to learn names and just about everything else memorizational, and I manage it. It really is hard for me, and I describe myself as bad with names. At my job, I just try harder.
(I haven't succeeded at that 50-State thing yet, but if it were really important to me, I'd manage to get adequate at it.)
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: So, put you in the 'doesn't matter' column?
Yup.
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
quote:Originally posted by Shan: P.S. Would you consider fixing the spelling in the thread title?
*squints at thread title* You are pulling Storm's leg, I believe.
Squint again, honey. Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
First or last, it doesn't bother me when people mispronounce it on the first go, never having heard it before. Once I tell people how to say the names, though, I do like for them to continue saying them that way.
The REALLY funny thing is the reaction to my first name.
This happens nearly every single time. I really don't know why; it's like they can't process that a name they know how to spell might be pronounced differently than they usually hear it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis:
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: So, put you in the 'doesn't matter' column?
Yup.
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
quote:Originally posted by Shan: P.S. Would you consider fixing the spelling in the thread title?
*squints at thread title* You are pulling Storm's leg, I believe.
Squint again, honey.
How embarrassing! I really do know how to spell 'hyphenated'. It's weird that my brain supplied the missing 'h' in the title when I looked last night.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
quote:Originally posted by Shan: P.S. Would you consider fixing the spelling in the thread title?
*squints at thread title* You are pulling Storm's leg, I believe.
Storm. Thanks for fixing the title, dear. Are your eyes unstuck from squinting, yet?
Edit to add: Don't be embarrassed. I drove by the place I was supposed to pick a colleague up three times without seeing it just last Friday, sure I was forever lost. I went in circles for 30 minutes. That's embarrassing. A missing letter? Pshaw. *smile* Her last name is at least pronounceable and not hyphenated. *grin*
[ March 06, 2007, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Shan ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by maui babe: My first name is very common, but my mother gave me a less common spelling (Lorie). Again, it never bothers me much, except a while ago I was going through old school records (report cards, academic awards, etc) and my first name was misspelled on every last one of them. (Lori) I mean, it's not like they didn't have my official records or anything.
School officials do that a lot. My last name used to be Aaronson, and a guidance counselor once spelled it Erinsohn.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: For instance, my last name 'Baxter' gets mispronounced somewhat frequently, and as for spelling, people ask me how to spell it *all* the time.
Huh? How do you mispronounce Baxter?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Some people apparently have a hard time with x's.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
I had a hard time with my x at first, but then I moved on...
/stupid joke
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
My maiden name was two syllables: "helm" and then "bock."*** This proves insurmountable for most people. Hemlock, Hellenback, you name it. I was glad to shed the hassle.
***(I am not spelling it out as one word because I do not want it to be searchable, for reasons I'm not going to go into right now. I'd appreciate it if nobody else spells it out as one word, though. Thanks. )
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
My grandfather pretty much invented our last name*. His two sons, my father and my uncle, pronounce it differently.
*no idea why he didn't come up with something more obviously spelled, pronounced or at least interesting or pretty.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
See, my last name is fairly simple. And like the country. But my middle name, which is the name that I go by, drives everyone up a wall. Especially, for some reason, if they see it written and then try to pronounce it...or, for some reason, if they try to repeat it after I tell them what it is.
Paris, Pears (like two of the fruit), Peh Arce...
None of those sound anything at all like my name, which is why it's so surprising when people use one of the above after they have heard me speak my own name.
And I totally want to keep my own name if I ever get married. It's a rockstar name.
-pH
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
'Pronounced 'dork''.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: My grandfather pretty much invented our last name*. His two sons, my father and my uncle, pronounce it differently.
*no idea why he didn't come up with something more obviously spelled, pronounced or at least interesting or pretty.
I thought I invented mine. It wasn't until I got back to Israel that I found out it was a name that already existed.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
Another interesting name convention-My mother and my father disagreed on what to name me, so the English name my mother chose became my first name, the Arabic name my father chose became my first middle name, my father's name became my second middle name, my paternal grandfather's name became my third middle name, and I got my father's last name. English speakers address me by my first name, Alexander or Alex, whereas Arabic speakers call me Amir. Interesting, neh?
[ March 06, 2007, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Flaming Toad on a Stick ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Yep.
I feel kind of left out on the forum as the only person with one first, middle and last name.
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
At least your name fits on a driver's license. /mumble.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Yep.
I feel kind of left out on the forum as the only person with one first, middle and last name.
I have exactly one first, one middle, and one last name. I think I'll probably take my husband's name when I get married. I don't know if I'll do what my mom did, and use my maiden as my middle. I feel no connection with my middle name, and very little with my last name.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I have one first, one middle, and one last name as well. And I feel connected to all of 'em. So I'm keeping them all. They're mine! MINE! *maniacal laughter*
-pH
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Trying not to offend those with hyphenated names, I don't get the appeal.
I understand the identity thing, to a certain extent, but it doesn't show a great deal of foresight, imo.
Take for example a student I had. His father's last name was Schnitzer, and his mother's was Zipple. They just *had* to hyphenate. Made for an interesting childhood as a Zipple-Schnitzer.
In another example, I saw a name at work that was Zito-Gurdag. Heck of a combo there.
As someone said earlier, what if these two met and got married? Do the kids become Zipple-Shnitzers, or Zito-Gurdags? Do they become Zito-Gurdag-Zipple-Schnitzers? Or is it Zipple-Zito or Schnitzer-Gurdag? Or some other combination?
And what if Mary Zipple-Schnitzer-Zito-Gurdag marries another hyphenate?
There comes a point where simplicity of identity becomes more important, I think.
I also think it's strange looking in the other direction. If it's so important to preserve identity in marriage, why not change your name pre-marriage to a hyphenate of your parents names. Or a four-way hyphenate of your grandparents' names? Or so on and so forth.
I understand the "professional name" concept more easily, I think, especially in the realm of publishing and maintaining an audience, but I don't see how that warrants a hyphenate for children.
I think this hits closer to home also because my girlfriend wants to keep her last name or create a hyphenate if we get married. It just makes no sense to me.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
I didn't read page two, so maybe this was already covered: Latinos keep the fathers name and the mother's maiden name, but they don't always hyphenate them. And oftentimes the only use the father's; using both names is a formality.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I think this hits closer to home also because my girlfriend wants to keep her last name or create a hyphenate if we get married. It just makes no sense to me.
Then the obvious solution, if it doesn't matter to you and does to her, is for you to take her name.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
My first name is a legitimate name in some languages, but my mom gave it an odd, non-intuitive "American" pronunciation. So the few people who read it and aren't thrown into pronunciation conniptions pronounce it correctly, assuming they know someone Dutch. And then I have to wonder - do I correct them on their correct prounciation by making them call me a name that my Australian companion said "might as well be spelled anarchy"?
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
I'm pretty surprised so many people talk about this as if it's no big deal. I've had many an argument with my boyfriend about what's appropriate re: whose name to take. I've also found, as a reporter, that the one thing that puts a source on edge/makes them hostile is screwing up their name. And I had a strongly feminist English teacher that had a hyphenated last name that was impossibly hard to pronounce, but she wouldn't answer to anything else.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
We've actually talked about that, dkw.
My concern is that I'm really the last chance for my name to continue. I'm my father's only son, and his brother has a son who is not likely to have children. The closest relative with my name that has had children is a fourth cousin whom I've never met.
My girlfriend has two brothers, one of which already is married with a newborn, and male cousins with the same name. Her concern is more of a professional nature, plus a strong identification with her father.
There are several solutions, obviously. One, we take my name (which is not in line with her professional goals). Two, we take her name (which effectively ends my family line's name). Three, we hyphenate (which I find no sense or logic in). Four, we each keep our own separate names (which gives any children no family name at all, per se).
It's not an easy situation, to be sure.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My mother kept her maiden name and gave it to me as a middle. I have my father's last name. It's not a bad solution. I didn't like it all that much growing up, but it's probably a little more common now for moms to have their maiden names. And it didn't scar me for life.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I'm in a similar situation, FlyingCow. While neither of us are only children, and our family names will undoubtably be passed on without our help, my lady friend and I both very strongly identify with our last names.
My entire immediate family is going to have our last name stylized and made into a tattoo, we've got two family websites, I use my last name as my screenname for practically everything. The lady is pretty close to the same way, though no tattoos. She has a very large family with a proud heritage. She is first generation American, and there is a family hesitance to Americanization, so she is very insistant on keeping her name.
I'm not going to give up my last name, or change it in any way. My child will be proud to carry the family name, and will get the tattoo someday as well. Where is the solution to this? I know what the solution will be, the child will have my name. The lady can keep her name, for professional or any other reason, but the baby, oh no, the baby will be Vonk.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Three, we hyphenate (which I find no sense or logic in).
I expect that for many people who hyphenate, the sense is found in the failure of the other three options to satisfy.
Probably most people who make this choice find their way (through one route or another) to the same 4 options you listed, and often the same 3 fail to pass muster. So the hypenation may not be ideal, but it may be the best of the available alternatives.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kasie H: I'm pretty surprised so many people talk about this as if it's no big deal. I've had many an argument with my boyfriend about what's appropriate re: whose name to take. I've also found, as a reporter, that the one thing that puts a source on edge/makes them hostile is screwing up their name. And I had a strongly feminist English teacher that had a hyphenated last name that was impossibly hard to pronounce, but she wouldn't answer to anything else.
It actually is a big deal to me, but I'm never quite sure if it's because it's a big deal (because I do have strong ties to my family) or because the last boyfriend who was seriously offended by the idea of my not taking his name was a psycho possessive freak, so I probably now have some kind of negative association.
Of course, I'd be totally cool with any *shudder* offspring having their father's name.
-pH
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
It's funny, though. My girlfriend strongly identifies with her father's name, and almost recoils at her mother's maiden name. She would not have been happy at all if she, herself, had been a hyphenate.
On another note, hyphenate names feel very divisive to me. With a name like the "Smiths", you have a unified group. Everyone there is a Smith, they have a singular identity. With a name like the "Smith-Joneses", you have a dual group - it has two parts. There's the Smith part, and the Jones part. The parts share equally, but there is emphasis on the division - the separateness - rather than the unit.
It seems unnatural to me. In fact, having a hyphenate name seems to dilute identity for further generations rather than preserving identity.
Now, another option I have seen is that where the maiden name is kept for professional purposes (mainly publishing purposes), while legally still being changed. For example, Jane Doe and John Brown get married. They become "Mr. and Mrs. Brown", are called "The Browns", have children who are Browns, etc. But Jane still publishes under Jane Doe, and maintaines her professional outside-the-family identity as Jane Doe - which is how she's already built a name and reputation. I've seen this work, though it still can end up being confusing.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Actually, pH, that is one possibility that Flying Cow didn't list.
Would it be possible that you guys could marry, she keeps her name, but the children get your last name? That would seem to possibly satisfy the concerns that you listed, I think.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Actually, that is one possibility that Flying Cow didn't list.
Would it be possible that you guys could marry, she keeps her name, but the children get your last name? That would seem to possibly satisfy the concerns that you listed, I think.
You're right, I guess he didn't list it...it seemed like the most logical option to me. My best friend growing up had her father's name, though her mother kept her maiden name.
-pH
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Same here. Like I said.
And I know lots of children now whose parents were never married, and the children have the father's last name but of course the mother has her own. I think it is getting more and more common for mothers and children to have different last names.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
It can, but it's still weird. I can't tell you the number of times as a former teacher I called a student's house to have something like the following dialogue:
Bobby Smith's mother: Hello? Me: Hello, Mrs. Smith? Bobby Smith's mother: No, this is Ms. Jones. Me: Can I speak with Mrs. Smith, please? This is Bobby's math teacher from ABC Middle School. Bobby Smith's mother: It's not Smith, it's Jones. I didn't take my husband's name. Me: (making note in my gradebook of the umpteenth student with parents with different names) I apologize, Ms. Jones. I wanted to talk to you about Bobby's behavior in class today...
It made letters home interesting, too, as you can no longer use a mail merge for "Mr. & Mrs. <Last Name>"... instead having to opt for the more impersonal, "Parent or Guardian".
And again, it seems divisive. Everyone is a Smith, but the mother is a Jones? Doesn't that at least subconsiously set her apart from the rest of the family unit?
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
When I got married, I went with the two middle name idea- no hyphen. My husband's last name is mine and our child just has his last name. My middle name was just one syllable and my husband's last name was also one short syllable so it didn't seem too long to me. I am fine with people referring to me as though I had hyphenated it and when I do official paperwork, I like to include both middle names. Since I am about as white as you can get (pale, blond hair, blue eyes), having just a Chinese last name confuses people. When I was introduced by just my actual last name, I had someone just sit there staring in confusion for a few minutes and then finally said "the name comes from my husband." My husband's family is interesting on the last name because everyone anglicized it differently. I also have run into Chinese people who tell me we have the same last name, just they pronounce Mandarin, while I pronounce butchered Cantonese. And while my husband has two brothers, if we don't have a son, the name will probably die. One brother not sure if will ever have kids and the other took his wife's name. For our daughter, she has his last name, an American style first name and a Chinese middle name. The Mandarin pronunciation is a little easier and less emberassing than the Cantonese, so we call her that, but I imagine her Chinese relatives will call her by the Cantonese version. And since her daddy doesn't look all that Chinese, she probably won't look Chinese enough for anyone to tell she is, so she will spend her life explaining that she is part Chinese, hence the weird name.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:There are several solutions, obviously. One, we take my name (which is not in line with her professional goals). Two, we take her name (which effectively ends my family line's name). Three, we hyphenate (which I find no sense or logic in). Four, we each keep our own separate names (which gives any children no family name at all, per se).
Have you considered her taking your name, legally, but continuing to use her maiden name professionally? I know a few people who do that, and if it's her career she's concerned about that would solve it.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Culture also plays a role, certainly.
I have an Irish surname, for instance. It has a history of about 1200+ years, and traces back to kings and major Irish historical figures. Nearly everyone with that name is in some way related, as the name is only passed by marriage and to children - in fact, far enough back, and only the first son could carry that name. Beyond personal identity, it has a historical tradition.
It definitely makes me more unwilling to part with it, or hyphenate it.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:My child will be proud to carry the family name, and will get the tattoo someday as well.
Um... really?
I don't think I would force my child to get a tattoo.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: It can, but it's still weird. I can't tell you the number of times as a former teacher I called a student's house to have something like the following dialogue:
Bobby Smith's mother: Hello? Me: Hello, Mrs. Smith? Bobby Smith's mother: No, this is Ms. Jones. Me: Can I speak with Mrs. Smith, please? This is Bobby's math teacher from ABC Middle School. Bobby Smith's mother: It's not Smith, it's Jones. I didn't take my husband's name. Me: (making note in my gradebook of the umpteenth student with parents with different names) I apologize, Ms. Jones. I wanted to talk to you about Bobby's behavior in class today...
It made letters home interesting, too, as you can no longer use a mail merge for "Mr. & Mrs. <Last Name>"... instead having to opt for the more impersonal, "Parent or Guardian".
And again, it seems divisive. Everyone is a Smith, but the mother is a Jones? Doesn't that at least subconsiously set her apart from the rest of the family unit?
My friend's parents would still be okay with being called Mr. and Mrs. A even though her last name was G.
I don't find it divisive at all. Plus, changing her name kinda sets her apart from her own family, if you want to look at it that way.
-pH
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
Very rambling post follows. I had a lot of thoughts come together and I'm posting on my lunch hour, so it's not as well organized as I'd like.
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
My concern is that I'm really the last chance for my name to continue.
This is a concern that I don't really relate to. Perhaps because of the way I was raised... I'm not sure why, but the idea that one's NAME must live on just doesn't resonate with me at all.
I know it's important to others - my grandparents showed a lot of preference for my brother (they had 5 granddaughters, but he was the only grandson) for instance, and my former mother in law definitely preferred grandsons. I was extremely offended after the birth of my 5th child, my 4th daughter. She was the most perfect, most beautiful baby girl you'd ever hope to see, and my MIL told people in my presence that she was disappointed that the baby wasn't a boy.
Having said that, I do understand how one's name is related to one's identity.
When I married, I took my husband's last name. When we divorced, I kept his name, since I had some issues with my dad that were unresolved. When I remarried, I took my 2nd husband's name (we had no children)... my college diploma has that name on it. After my second divorce, I went back to my maiden name. I haven't totally resolved my issues with my father. I decided to skip a generation and take my grandfather's name (which of course is the same as my father's) because I certainly have no issues with him.
For a while, I considered taking my mother's maiden name, but I never knew those grandparents, and I never knew my mother by that name, so I decided against it (even though it would have put me at the beginning of the alphabet for the first time in my life... I grew up as a W and married a W).
When I was dealing with all of the paperwork for my name change after my second divorce, I decided I'd never go through that again. If I ever marry again, I'll keep my name as it is. Of course, I'm exceedingly unlikely to ever have any more children, so that's not a concern.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
My Aunt got married after she had passed the bar and graduated college and all that fun stuff... She was adamant about keeping her maiden name (and we do have a cool last name... : ) ).
She swore she was going to keep it in terms of everything... Now they've got three boys in grammar school and she has become Mrs. H/Coach H. I don't think she minds now... It just became a part of her. Although legally she's still got her maiden name and her law practice is in her maiden name, to the kids and the teachers, she's got the married into last name. : )
[ December 07, 2007, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: cmc ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Take for example a student I had. His father's last name was Schnitzer, and his mother's was Zipple. They just *had* to hyphenate. Made for an interesting childhood as a Zipple-Schnitzer.
In another example, I saw a name at work that was Zito-Gurdag. Heck of a combo there.
As someone said earlier, what if these two met and got married? Do the kids become Zipple-Shnitzers, or Zito-Gurdags? Do they become Zito-Gurdag-Zipple-Schnitzers? Or is it Zipple-Zito or Schnitzer-Gurdag? Or some other combination?
And what if Mary Zipple-Schnitzer-Zito-Gurdag marries another hyphenate?
You MUST be practicing to be the next Dr. Suess.
*giggling*
The pictures in my mind's-eye are incredible. What a pity I'm not an artist, otherwise I'd encourage you to write a book on that there scenario, and I'd illustrate.
*laughs some more*
Thank you for the good laugh.
*smile*
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Well, my last name is hyphenated AND I have a relatively long middle name.
What a world! What a world!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Aren't you also Latina? As per Icky's previous post, I've known a lot of people with, like, ten names.
quote:When I was dealing with all of the paperwork for my name change after my second divorce, I decided I'd never go through that again. If I ever marry again, I'll keep my name as it is. Of course, I'm exceedingly unlikely to ever have any more children, so that's not a concern.
I think that was a contributing factor in my mom's decision to keep her maiden name when she married my dad-- she'd been married before, and she had hassles with the paperwork (her OT license was in one name, her nursing license in another, etc.)
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
It's pretty common to have five or more names here, too - whether Muslim, Sinhalese, or Tamil. The Burghers, though, are two or three, including surname.
Some Tamils have their family name at the beginning of the name, like Smith John Adam, but others have it at both the beginning and the end, like Smith John Adam Smith. But the names are usually three or more syllables, each, so they get pretty unwieldy. And difficult to pronounce for us foreigners. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I have one first, one middle, and one last name as well.
I have 2 firsts and 2 middles. Most American Jews do.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lissande: I had a hard time with my x at first, but then I moved on...
/stupid joke
<grin> I thought it was good.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:I have 2 firsts and 2 middles.
Yeah, isn't your first first name "Star"?
:ducks:
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
We typically only keep the two last names, unless there's some royalty back there you're trying not to lose.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
quote:I have 2 firsts and 2 middles.
Yeah, isn't your first first name "Star"?
:ducks:
<grin>
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by pH: I have one first, one middle, and one last name as well.
I have 2 firsts and 2 middles. Most American Jews do.
That depends on generation (among other things). I just have the one first and middle name, as do my kids. Among those currently between 30 and 15 (a group whose legal names and names they go by I deal with regularly) I'd guess that was true for about 60-80%.
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You mean like: Peter? John? Mathew? Sarah? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Storm. Thanks for fixing the title, dear. Are your eyes unstuck from squinting, yet? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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That's embarrassing. A missing letter? Pshaw. *smile* Her last name is at least pronounceable and not hyphenated. *grin*![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)