Observations on American Culture, Which are Now Glaringly Obvious to Me (though I am guilty myself), Having Returned From the Orient
Americans are attention hogs. This is a discussion I had with Sister Onogawa, a Japanese Mormon girl.
If you have a room full of Americans and ask "does anyone speak Japanese?" The kid who took two years in high school and can say "o genki desu ka?" and not much else will jump to his feet. "I do! I speak Japanese! Look at me! Look at me!"
Now go into a room full of Japanese. "Does anyone here speak English?" Dead silence. You ask someone specifically. "Do you speak English?" He, like every other person in the room, studied it for 6 years in school and is fairly proficient. "Oh, no. I'm terrible."
Of course this is generalizing. But, culturally speaking, it is rather true. So Sister Onogawa and I argued in favor of each others' cultures.
Me: Americans are so obnoxious! They have no sense of propriety or thought for the rest of the people in the room. There is no acknowledging your neighbor's merits first. And usually when you acknowledge your own merits, you overplay them dramatically. None of us ever had the attention span or work ethic to become as good at (piano, baseball, macrame) as we love to claim we are. The Nihonjin, on the other hand, each have a talent that they've been seriously cultivating for years. And before they show off about it, they'll try to pass your attention to their friend. "Me? Play piano? Well, I like it, but I'm no good. Kenji here is awesome, though. Play something for us, Kenji."
Sister Onogawa: But that's the problem! No one in Japan has self confidence. They've worked for seven years but they're still convinced they're crap. (the word she used was zen zen dame. This is a very loose translation.) Whereas an American really thinks he can do anything, and he does it. What good does a talent do if you never perform for anyone? My first American companion was loud and brassy and talked about herself all the time. At first I thought she was proud, but then I realized she is actually just full of faith.
****
And now that I'm home, I'm seeing it all the time. Heck, I'm doing it all the time. Look at any conversation on Hatrack. Someone brings up a question, and everyone jumps on with personal experience. "Oh, in MY case..." "well, when I worked in that field..." "as a matter of fact, I have photos of my macrame online right now..."
We're just full of it. Full of what? Bravado? Hot air? Confidence?
Is this a bad thing?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Also: I think American Idol is maybe exacerbating the problem. Kashira?
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
I think it's more of a cultural difference than one country being 'attention hogs'.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I've seen that some. I try to always temper myself though by putting in words like some, to indicate while I do have some knowledge I am not fully confident in it. Although this is more true for me in areas where I feel like I need to improve more. In some areas, I might just say that I know/understand it. Of course, I wouldn't be the one bouncing up and down to answer when a teacher or someone asks "does anyone know this/know how to do this?" I'm not confident enough in myself to do that, because even when I do feel like I know it I also know I could always make a mistake.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Even if you put in words to temper it, I think it odd that our first motivation is "look at me!" while some cultures' motivation is "don't look at me!"
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
In my class no one raises their hand when the teacher asks a question.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Well yes. The one thing I always remember about Japan though is that whole phrase about "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down." Obviously, you'd not want to stick out. Of course, that doesn't explain why Americans often jump to the "look at me" first. *shrugs* Hard to say, I guess.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Are we speaking about a certain situation, or just in general, because I would try my best to stick out if I was looking for a job or in a club or something, but I would try and blend in if I happened to get caught in a bank robbery or something.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:We're just full of it. Full of what? Bravado? Hot air? Confidence?
Ourselves?
There was a recent news report about how MySpace and YouTube have helped create a look-at-me mentality, especially among young people. We are taught, from a very young age, about the importance of the wants, needs, opinions, and accomplishments of the individual. The article cited a preschool song sung to the tune of Frere Jacques: "I am special, I am special, look at me..." Some of the schools I attended took great pains to protect children's self-esteem and instead inflated their egos.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with confidence. Ambition is not a bad thing. It just becomes a problem when people are confident to the point of self-delusion. As you said: American Idol. People who are kicked off during the first auditions frequently rant about how much better they are than [insert last year's winner here].
--j_k
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
Historically, the ability (tendency)for the American solder to confidently improvise both tactics and modifications to equipment,without direction, was considered a major strength when pitted aganst Japanese, Western European and especially Eastern European solders. I think that some of what you are seeing is that same tendency. "Look at me!" just might be "Well, I can do that!" It's not all bad, just different.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Annie- your example about the language thing is a rather poor one to demonstrate your supposition. This is a cultural difference of an entirely different order: how do Americans act around NEW people in NEW situations. Some of us are eager to please, eager to talk and are slightly more agressive or show confidence. That doesn't make us attention grabbers, it shows how we deal with new situations. And besides, it's not even always true- we all have different personalities.
This whole topic needs some reconsidering imho. It's just more name calling and generalizing about our culture, when clearly there are a million holes in your theory and you don't even seem to be very clear on what you mean. I am willing to bet that an Asian would would have a different view of our culture than you do, viewing it from your return- they might be able to assign some more neutral reasons for the ways we behave.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
"In my class no one raises their hand when the teacher asks a question."
That's a huge problem in classrooms all over the country, believe it or not. It is especially a problem in high school and college. In a class of 30+ students, the kids jumping up and down to be heard are the exception, not the rule.
It's much less of a problem in the lower grades, but by the time kids hit middle/high school, they have learned not to volunteer information, perhaps out of fear of being wrong or fear of being noticed, or fear of looking like a know it all. Who knows? I begrudgingly participate in class only after there is a good, awkward silence (and since I do that, my professors call on me by default when no one answers because they know I'll know, which is something I dislike).
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Annie, I forget, how long have you been back? I remember hearing about reverse culture shock when you get back from a really different culture. I experienced a little of this myself when I got back to Japan. Although if you've been back for a while, then I doubt that may be why you're seeing it more.
EDIT:
quote:Originally posted by DevilDreamt: Who knows? I begrudgingly participate in class only after there is a good, awkward silence (and since I do that, my professors call on me by default when no one answers because they know I'll know, which is something I dislike).
Hehe, I hate that awkward silence. That's often when I force myself to participate. Awkward silences aren't fun.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
How about middle ground then? Americans learn to be more humble, folks in Japan, learn to say, yes, I have played piano for 10 years and I am phenominal (Sp) We'll both win!
*Reminded of how I need to study Japanese, I WILL become bilingual one day!*
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Isn't this just an expression of individualism versus one of collectivism? Emerson wrote a pair of novels about those two societal models, you know.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
quote:Originally posted by DevilDreamt: "In my class no one raises their hand when the teacher asks a question."
That's a huge problem in classrooms all over the country, believe it or not. It is especially a problem in high school and college. In a class of 30+ students, the kids jumping up and down to be heard are the exception, not the rule.
It's much less of a problem in the lower grades, but by the time kids hit middle/high school, they have learned not to volunteer information, perhaps out of fear of being wrong or fear of being noticed, or fear of looking like a know it all. Who knows? I begrudgingly participate in class only after there is a good, awkward silence (and since I do that, my professors call on me by default when no one answers because they know I'll know, which is something I dislike).
Yeah, see that's why I had a hard time reading Annie's original post the right way. In many experiences I've had, people would rather lay low instead of stand out. Sure, when you meet new people, you want to get to know them, so of course you're going to try and get their attention. Same with they're really hot, you want to get to know them, so you try and get their attention. I'm pretty sure that these two rules apply across cultures, because I'm whenever you go on vacation overseas, when people see you, they know you're American, and they want to get to know you because of that.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I don't have any words of wisdom on the subject, but my friend Herbert over here....
Actually, this cultural bravado thing reminds me of that part in Enchantment, the dinner at the village the night he arrives, where everyone is expecting him to tell this story about how he saved Katerina and how brave he was, and how terrifying the Bear was...and he says "oh, it was nothing" and Katerina's father gets so upset because it was his DAUGHTER he saved, so of course it was something!
Cultural differences often lend themselves quite readily to the purposes of humor Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote: I am willing to bet that an Asian would would have a different view of our culture than you do, viewing it from your return- they might be able to assign some more neutral reasons for the ways we behave.
Which is what Sister Onogawa did, which is why I presented my idea with the story that I did.
quote:Annie, I forget, how long have you been back?
A little over a week, so you are right. This vague malaise set in as soon as I got to the Los Angeles airport and I haven't been able to shake it since.
And to clarify the example I used - this is not simply a phenomenon that occurs when you first meet someone - it is a deep-seated way of seeing yourself and your society that manifests it even after long acquaintance. The language example is merely an example. This occurs among people who know each other very well.
When I first started understanding enough of the language to observe it, I called it "the Japanese compliment game." Good friends (and my observations were mainly middle aged and older women)sit around complimenting each other. You then win points for how deftly you deflect the compliments. You get double points if you pass them on to someone else. "Oh, no, my voice is awful. But Mayumi has a lovely voice. I heard her sing last week and it was fabulous..."
Also, this is not an "Asian" cultural phenomenon, as far as my anecdotal experience can tell. Chinese people behave very differently than Japanese people. They're a little more like Americans in some respects, but mostly just distinctly different from both. For them it's less of a "respect the surrounding people" issue and more of "respect some external universal standard of goodness."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Humility is not a virtue. Selflessness isn't a virtue, either.
These things can be tools in service to a higher cause. But they are not inherently virtuous, and can be quite pernicious if encouraged for their own sakes. As you pointed out, the deflection of compliments is in its own way a social game; there's pride to be found in seeming prideless, and everyone in the culture is aware of this pretense.
While there are some advantages to collectivism, I think it's a suboptimal strategy overall.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie:
quote:Annie, I forget, how long have you been back?
A little over a week, so you are right. This vague malaise set in as soon as I got to the Los Angeles airport and I haven't been able to shake it since.
Let's be fair, though: you didn't much like American culture before you left. Have you considered the possibility that you might be happier living somewhere else?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:But that's the problem! No one in Japan has self confidence. They've worked for seven years but they're still convinced they're crap.
This is also true for many Sri Lankan women.
Using the women at church I know as an example... It's been a difficult slog getting many of them to speak up, offer their opinions, their experiences, to offer to help out. Several speak so softly that, even when I'm less than a foot away, I can't understand them - they think they speak English so badly that no one will understand them! In reality, when they start speaking up, I understand what they're saying perfectly well (getting past my own problem with accents, of course. )
Fahim's mother was also the same way. Didn't speak English ever. Ever. Can understand most of conversations taking place in English, reads English newspapers, but wouldn't speak it. Then with Fahim's sister's daughters, she spoke a little with them, but only with them. Then I came along, and she has to speak English when no one's around to translate, and she's gotten a lot more confident and tries more. We understand each other most of the time. Simple stuff, but still... The point being that she lacked confidence. She thought she had a terrible accent, but she's actually clearer in her pronunciation than her husband or her sons.
It's a bit of a contradiction, really.
If Mrs. Fernando needs someone to fix her stove, she'll call someone she knows or will get a recommendation from someone she knows. The person recommending the stove fixer will suggest someone she knows. It's never based on quality of work but on relationships. So the stove isn't fixed right because the guy wasn't the least bit competent, but because it's someone you know or someone who knows someone you know, you're all polite and use him again and again. Because you wouldn't dare call someone who you didn't know, either directly or through association.
As a result, the stove fixer thinks he can fix anything, even if he's a complete idiot and totally incompetent.
Restaurants are the same way - doesn't matter the actual quality of the food or service, they think they're fantastic. Doesn't matter if someone complains (usually foreigners, almost never locals - the locals know it's a waste of time), they ignore anything bad said and assume that they're the best.
They're basically fooling themselves. Confidence without competence.
It seems, from my experience, that it's much more of a gender thing here.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I have noticed that there are some significant regional difference in this trait within the United. In the mid-west and Intermountain regions (an maybe the south east?), the "look at me, look at me" behavior is much less acceptable than it is in the north east or California. As a result, Easterners and Californians are seen as being arrogant and brash. In contrast, people from the middle of the country are often considered timid when they go to the coasts. They often have trouble getting credit for their accomplishments because they consider it rude to toot their own horns.
As for the compliment game, I've seen a very similar version played in America, particularly among teenagers.
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
Annie, you definitely have a point. I think it can easily fit into the whole "American dream" thing. In American culture, we are taught to believe we can do anything. It's how this country was made.
On the other hand, you're just giving the Canadians one more reason to be snobby towards us, which we didn't need. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Isn't this just an expression of individualism versus one of collectivism?
Yes.
-pH
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
I'd say these observations are reasonably representative of their respective cultures. Three dimensions stick out in particular: individualism (US) vs. collectivism/communitarianism (East Asia), the degree of uncertainty avoidance (Japan being very risk/uncertainty adverse, the United States being on the opposite end of the spectrum), and bifurcation of inner directed (US) vs. outer directed (East Asian) cultures. Your observations seem very much to be in line with most major cultural analyses, if a bit exaggerated.
Edit: Sorry for the jargon--class on Organizational Behavior spilling through.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Although your big vocabulary did make us all look at you.
quote:(Icarus) Have you considered the possibility that you might be happier living somewhere else?
Several times.
However, I'm also frequently confronted with how incredibly American I am myself. The reason I know the attitude so well is because I am the attitude. And that's the most frustrating of all.
quote:Humility is not a virtue.
If I may translate, herikudaru is not a virtue, while kenson is. I learned there were two words for being humble accidentally. I was talking to Sister Shiki one day about how kenson the Japanese are.
"Kenson janai," she stated. "Tada herikudatteru."
"They're not humble - they're merely showing outward signs of socially appropriate humble behavior,"
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:If I may translate, herikudaru is not a virtue, while kenson is.
Why is kenson a virtue? What good does it actually do? Perspective is useful, but in what way is humility -- genuine or not -- useful?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Why is kenson a virtue? What good does it actually do?
If it's honest from-the-heart humility it doesn't preclude self-confidence. But it does allow you to think outside of the paradigm of "I'm always right." It allows for greater personal advancement because it considers personal achievement in its proper context - the achievements of everyone else in the world.
One of my design professors told us during a critique: You know that one kid in class who always does something really good and it just makes you mad? Mad because he always shows you up? Well, take that emotion and turn it into something productive. Instead of getting defensive about your own piece, turn that admiration of his into a desire to learn and improve from him.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
See, again, I'd prefer perspective to humility in that case. It's good to recognize when someone has done something good, and good to recognize that you have room for improvement. The traditions I associate with kenson, though, aren't limited to that kind of useful self-awareness.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
What do you traditionally associate with humility?
(I ask because I'vebeen raised in a culture where humility is taught as a Christ-like virtue to be sought for and is described as a positive, constructive thing)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* It's that attitude towards humility -- or "modesty," even -- that I find especially pernicious. I think humility is a worthy social tool, and I think perspective is absolutely vital, but humility as a way of improving yourself is (IMO) only valuable if you don't currently have that perspective.
It's all relative, anyway. We speak of Christ-like humility, but Christ after all claimed to be God; we speak of the arrogance of atheists, but the religious often claim to have received God's personal attention. The "humility" involved in living a simple life is a very different sort from the "humility" involved in downplaying one's abilities and accomplishments, and I think the only word that actually encompasses all those definitions of "humility" without including the insincere and/or unhealthy forms is "perspective."
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:We speak of Christ-like humility, but Christ after all claimed to be God
I suppose this is troublesome from a trinitarian point of view. If one believes in the Father and the Son as separate and distinct beings, statements like
quote:Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
are a perfect illustration of humility.
It is through Christ's ultimate humility that He becomes one with the Father; He cedes His will to that of the Father.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm highly uncomfortable with the conflation of "humility" as a virtue with that of "submission." In fact, your specific example actually threw that into sharp relief for me; I wouldn't've been able to articulate that if you hadn't replied in that way.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
If it's submission to a good thing is it bad?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think it can be. And I worry that the promotion of submission as a virtue does not in itself make it any easier to accurately determine which are good things and which are bad things.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I'm confident enough in the power of good things to demonstrate their goodness that people will know the difference.
We all submit to things - cultural attitudes, our family traditions, the opinions of our favorite writers and authors - I don't think any of us are wise enough to define the universe and go it alone. And in our lives we see the results of the things we've submitted to. Perhaps that judgement takes time and effort, but good wells have good water. Bitter wells have bitter water.
I, frankly, worry about the promotion of refusal to submit as a virtue.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Sorry - I'm about to submit to my self-imposed bedtime. But now I'm all full of thoughts. We shall continue another day.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:class on Organizational Behavior spilling through
I'm sorry.
quote:"In my class no one raises their hand when the teacher asks a question."
That's a huge problem in classrooms all over the country, believe it or not. It is especially a problem in high school and college. In a class of 30+ students, the kids jumping up and down to be heard are the exception, not the rule.
It's much less of a problem in the lower grades, but by the time kids hit middle/high school, they have learned not to volunteer information, perhaps out of fear of being wrong or fear of being noticed, or fear of looking like a know it all. Who knows? I begrudgingly participate in class only after there is a good, awkward silence (and since I do that, my professors call on me by default when no one answers because they know I'll know, which is something I dislike).
A large part of why I was ostracized in school is that I loved to learn, asked questions of the teachers, answered theirs, loved to debate and think and read. Loving to learn is not cool. Liking your classes, any of them, is not cool (except, maybe, sports.) At least, it wasn't at my school. That's why the Drama kids hung out together, and the Band kids hung out together, and the Dance kids hung out together, and the Choir kids often hung out together, and we dorks in Latin Club often hung out together, too, or found other socially unacceptable people to hang out with-- because we cared enough about something that we weren't cool. The only people who defied this were the kids who managed to be good at everything (sports, piano, A.P. English, trig) but pass it off as if they didn't ever work at it-- because if people knew they worked at it or thought too much about it, people would know they cared, and that would be uncool.
It sucked. I wished I had been home-schooled. In fact, I still do. I think I would have done a lot better in a lot of different ways. And I might not have some of the problems that I have now, as a result of 11 years (it didn't really start much until 2nd grade) of constant put-downs because I liked to learn, and read, and think, and didn't have a lot of money.
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:class on Organizational Behavior spilling through
I'm sorry.
Tell me about it. Overall, a painful experience.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My husband had to take one a few months back. Iiiiick, is all I have to say.
Posted by Dusty (Member # 10266) on :
I'm from China and I'd like to offer my viewpoint here. I'm not going to argue which attitude is good and which is bad, just some personal experience to share with everyone.
I remember how upset the three of my foreign teachers, two from the US and one from Canada,(my major was English back when I was in college) got when they taught us. And the cause of their unhappiness was, according to what they desperately asserted, that "you guys simply refuse to cooperate with me."
One teacher (the Canadian one) became our overt enemy because he went to the dean for too many times to tell him how bad we were; one didn't care much about the situation; and one survived it and became a much respected teacher to us.
I believe the successful teacher (he's from America, name is George) did spend a lot of time trying to understand us, instead of standing awkwardly on the platform all by himself, desperately waiting for the silent students to do something about it.
In Chinese culture, Confucianism plays a very important part which teaches people always to take the middle of the road, to remain modest and unassuming. There is a saying in China that could find equal versions in English as "He knows most who speaks least." or "Still water runs deep." This attitude has been handed down from generation to generation throughout the history, and certainly has made its contribution to create a peaceful and harmonious society. However what we value as the essence of Chinese culture doesn't seem to fit the modern society as before. Especially when people graduate from universities and colleges, the competition is almost unbearable. Therefore many a person are turning to the western way of thinking which looks more active and even a little aggressive but which actually would help people stand out and fulfill better his potentials in a time like this.
So things are actually changing, when you come to China you may find that people in big cities are more open and could accept the western cultures and ways of doing things more readily. Actually the kids nowadays are quite different from what I was like when I was little, they are full of energy, and welcome modern stuff with open arms. In some primary schools where English classes are offered by western teachers, these kids really cooperate with those teachers. I think it's a good sign. Because the world is merging into something very alike, all we need to do is to preserve the good points in our own culture and learn from others.
I've met some western visitors (mostly from the US), who do not seem to have any big problem to adapt to Chinese culture, who are quite willing to learn and to exchange ideas, which make their stays in China quite easy and pleasant. And I must say that their sense of humor could almost solve all problems if there's any.
In the end, I believe it's of great importance to preserve what is good in one's culture and be proud of it. Don't you think it's possible for a person to remain modest yet could appropriately seize the good opportunities to show his or her abilities? I think many people are actually just like that, both easterners and westerners.
[ March 07, 2007, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Dusty ]
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
Being Japanese myself (look at me!), I see the cultural bias towards humility as not always healthy. It does however have the effect of smoothing over many social situations (codified/hierarchical prescribed behaviour often alleviates the need to think about what would be appropriate self-expression; the answer is given), avoiding embarrassing ego-clashes, and earning the respect of American visitors.
I have a great deal of respect for people who show humility and reserve if they're honest, but I equally appreciate someone who is down to earth. Somehow I've always imagined the quintessential American to be earthy, honest, and not arrogant but open about what s/he wants or feels; a likeable person, who is slow to accept obligations except in trade (fair enough!). Teenage USians have disappointed me more than a few times, but frankly, every population has its fair share of jerks. I'm not ready to condemn all or even most Americans with the label "arrogant."
You'll also find that under the surface, Japanese people are often fiercely proud of what they do. Being humble about their work often makes the pride feel better deserved, or may be their way of indicating that the merits of their work speak for themselves. (Oh my, another Japanese "paradox"!)
[Edit: grammar]
[ March 07, 2007, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: Euripides ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Welcome, Dusty! Thanks for sharing.
I have to admit to a huge curiosity over whether you're still there, did you grow up there, that sort of thing, but I'll refrain from giving you the third degree. Of course, you could always volunteer the information... You know, in an intro thread or something. Posted by Baron Samedi (Member # 9175) on :
I'm going to have to go with Tom on this one. What one person may seem as arrogant, another may see as helpful. If I were to go into a room needing a Japanese translator, I'd much rather have the kid with a little basic understanding volunteer to help than have the guy who's totally fluent sit back and refuse to say anything just to prove how modest he is.
My best friend is married to a Japanese girl. She has apparently studied the piano for many years and is quite accomplished. But I didn't know this until they'd been married for several years, and even then my friend had to tell me. If you really back her into a corner she will, under duress, admit that she's taken a lesson or two. But her husband is (as far as I know) the only American who has ever heard her play, and she's only played for him once.
What is the point, from a Japanese perspective, of studying the piano for many years if you refuse to ever play it? Why should a child fortunate enough to have a piano-playing mother grow up in a house without music? What kind of backward tradition would teach a parent to deprive their own child of an important cultural experience simply to play the game of false modesty?
Of course, I do understand your frustration with the other extreme. The best course is probably found somewhere in the middle. But even from that perspective, Americans as a whole aren't that bad. My wife is from eastern Europe, and although she's not a big blowhard like some of her compatriots, I've met many people from her country that make Americans look positively Zen in their objectivity and restraint.
Anyway, I hope your opinion of Americans improves once the reverse culture shock wears off. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I, frankly, worry about the promotion of refusal to submit as a virtue.
Why? Again, what's virtuous about submission? If a recommended behavior is truly good, and good things bear good fruit and are thus obviously good, there's no need to ever submit; rational people will always be persuaded by the evidence to do good of their own free will, without having to "obey" anyone.
It's only if you accept that not all good things are obviously good that submission to a higher authority of any kind appears even remotely useful.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
quote:Originally posted by Baron Samedi:
What is the point, from a Japanese perspective, of studying the piano for many years if you refuse to ever play it?
No point.
quote:What kind of backward tradition would teach a parent to deprive their own child of an important cultural experience simply to play the game of false modesty?
... If by backward tradition you mean Japanese tradition, it doesn't teach parents to do that.
Your friend's wife either lacks the confidence to play in front of an audience/teach her child piano, or is taking the submissive wife role more seriously than most modern Japanese women.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Not to point out the obvious, but is it possible that you are looking at the people who say, "Look at me!"? If you are only noticing those who draw attention to themselves, maybe that's why it seems like Americans like to draw attention to themselves.
In other words, if you pay attention to those are NOT jumping up and down for the attention, a more nuanced picture of Americans may appear.
Specifically, both Matt and Coccinelle are incredibly smart, talented, and knowledgable, especially in their fields, and they don't usually volunteer their expertise out of a desire to not draw attention to themselves. I do a lot of linking to threads and saying, "This is crying out for your contribution." They are American.
If you look at My Space, of course everyone is going to seem like an attention hog. The non-attention hogs are not posting on My Space.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think humility is a virtue. Pride is a really ugly thing - especially pride that places oneself as having the highest value. I think part of the reason I like people who are passionate about something - anything - is because they are willing to devote their whole self to something other than their self.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I think humility is a virtue.
Why?
quote:I think part of the reason I like people who are passionate about something - anything - is because they are willing to devote their whole self to something other than their self.
I think you're confusing pride with selfishness, in the same way we've been confusing submissiveness with humility and assertiveness with ego. They're not the same thing, and I very strongly believe that attempts to conflate these very different attributes are harmful.
In fact, your definition of "humility" here seems especially odd, since you're saying that people who are passionate about things are less selfish -- and, given the context, presumably more humble. In my experience, many of the people who are most passionate about their causes, interests and hobbies are also the least humble.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I didn't define humility. I went from humility to a specific case of pride.
There are extremes on either end, but I'm not interested in using the extremes as examples for the whole. On the whole, people who care about themselves more than anything are more self-centered and less pleasant as human beings than people who care about something other than themselves.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
But you didn't. You actually contrasted selfishness with fanboyism. Self-obsession is not pride; self-denial is not humility. And I don't think the possession of external interests really speaks to or correlates with either.
I'll freely agree that people who are obsessed exclusively with their own happiness are less pleasant for others to be around. I don't see how that relates to "humility" at all, though.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Are they less pleasant to us because their self-centeredness conflicts with our own self-centeredness?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
<Note: this post harkens back to the first page where folks were speaking about generalities, and not the second page where we've gone on to defining self-centeredness, etc. *sigh* You all type and post too fast for me. What a humbling admission. *wicked grin*>
And of course, generalizations about any group of people or cultures are just that -- generalizations -- and rarely hold true across the spectrum, and can be easily argued against.
*grin* Generally speaking, the good 'ole USA makes a lot of generalizations about other groups of people and then promptly pours concrete on and around those generalizations and cements them into ideologies and beliefs.
I'm not sure that's at all helpful as a group of people.
From an individual point of view, Annie, it's a good reminder to give the other side a respectful hearing and attention. Who knows -- something could be learned, neh?
But submission? I don't buy that, especially when it comes out of the Biblical interpretations that then do great harm to relationships. "Wives submit to your husbands, slaves submit to your masters, children submit to your parents . . . "
Well, maybe the child-parent paradigm can hold . . . *grin*
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I find it useful to remember that something discussed in the abstract doesn't necessarily translate well into advice for a particular individual, at least not directly.
Even if humility is (in general) a virtue, some given individual may not be of the personality and habits that may make a reminder of this useful -- rather, he or she may be someone with excessive anxiety for such a reminder would provoke an unhealthy reaction. Similar problems can arise in the opposite case.
When discussions about this topic occur in the abstract and then rebuttals are made in the personal and particular, I'm often reminded about how differently the abstract plays out in individual human contexts.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Tom, you are making a mistake in conflating fanboyism with devotion to something outside of oneselves.
You are also making a mistake about humility - you even put it in scare quotes. True humility isn't forced and it isn't false.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Tom, you are making a mistake in conflating fanboyism with devotion to something outside of oneselves.
The contrast you specifically drew was between people who were not humble and people who were interested in "something - anything" other than themselves. If you'd like to amend your observation to say that humble people are those who're interested in "something - anything," as long as that thing is important and not, say, a TV show, I'm okay with that, too.
quote:You are also making a mistake about humility - you even put it in scare quotes. True humility isn't forced and it isn't false.
I'm not putting it in scare quotes. I'm putting it in quotes, period, to indicate the use of a specific definition of "humility" -- or not, as the case may be. Your definition, for example, seems very different from Shan's, and there's not a lot of overlap with Annie's, either.
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quote:Even if humility is (in general) a virtue...
See, that's specifically what I don't grant. I think people take it for granted because it's commonly said that it's a virtue, but it's not. Perspective is a virtue, and humility is one of many tools that can help achieve perspective.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Don't you think it's possible for a person to remain modest yet could appropriately seize the good opportunities to show his or her abilities?
I hope so That's actually how my conversation with Sister Onogawa ended up - we decided we wanted to found an island nation halfway through the Pacific that preserved the best of both cultures.
And Euripides, I know exactly what you mean. The humility is very often just surface. But it's cute, really. I love when you're eating something a cute little obachan cooked for you and you rave about how delicious it is and she says "aa sou? oishii?" with a little twinkle in her eyes. Everyone does love to be praised, no matter what the cultural convention for accepting praise. This probably explains the popularity of the Japanese Compliment Game. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Even if humility is (in general) a virtue...
See, that's specifically what I don't grant.
You may be confusing me asserting a claim with me putting forth the hypothetical clause of a conterfactual conditional.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Gesundheit! Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I know. I was actually worried that you'd think I was arguing with you on that point. But since my concern is precisely how commonly it is said that humility is a virtue without any analysis of the virtue inherent in humility (if any), I couldn't let that one pass unremarked-upon. *grin*
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I know. I was actually worried that you'd think I was arguing with you on that point. But since my concern is precisely how commonly it is said that humility is a virtue without any analysis of the virtue inherent in humility (if any), I couldn't let that one pass unremarked-upon. *grin*
Oh, for sure. I'm one of the people who had to work for years -- literally -- even merely to make sense of the idea that humility (as the term was explained and presented by example to me) could bring about bitterness and ill in the world. That it could be used as a very effective weapon.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I actually worry about how much we teach that selflessness is inherently virtuous, too, despite the fact that it clearly isn't. I think it causes our society a lot of cognitive dissonance.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I think you are probably quite right on that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't think it is clearly not a virtue. You may think it is not a virtue, but it isn't clear or obvious. There is a definite arguement that it is.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I think Tom is claiming that it is clearly not inherently a virtue, if that makes a difference. That is, there are some contexts in which it* isn't.
*"it" being the behaviors and attitudes of the virtue, though of course one could define the virtue in such a way as to exclude improper usage -- but that fails to capture the concept in actual use (I think)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I think Tom is claiming that it is clearly not inherently a virtue, if that makes a difference. That is, there are some contexts in which it* isn't.
If this is what Tom is saying (and I agree he is), then I agree with Tom. There are some situations where behaving in a humble manner is not in fact virtuous.
But then again, can't that be said of all the things we call virtues? Doesn't that word depend entirely on context?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If you're asking whether I think the word "virtue" -- often used to mean something that we should aspire to as an end in itself, something that is inherently a good thing -- is often applied to things which are not actually virtues in that sense, my answer is "yes."
I do think there ARE virtues, things which are inherently good for a given definition of "good," things that should be aspirational goals in and of themselves. I also believe that there are vices, things which are inherently bad, things that should be avoided regardless of context. I do not think humility is a virtue by this definition any more than I believe that sexual promiscuity is a vice.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I think we're all talking about 20 separate concepts/ways of behaving and calling them all humility.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, yeah. Christ is "humble" despite announcing that He's God because He submits to God; someone else is "humble" because they refuse to admit that they play the piano well; someone else is "humble" because he cares about other people; etc. One of my problems with the promotion of "humility" is that it's somehow applied to all these blanket situations, when in reality there are more specific terms which better describe each. Consider the use of the word "modest," which is profoundly broken.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I use "modest" fairly functionally. But I don't think I use it with its typical self-deprecating connotation.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: This whole topic needs some reconsidering imho. It's just more name calling and generalizing about our culture, when clearly there are a million holes in your theory and you don't even seem to be very clear on what you mean. I am willing to bet that an Asian would would have a different view of our culture than you do, viewing it from your return- they might be able to assign some more neutral reasons for the ways we behave.
That seems rather harsh. I *am* Asian and I think her view is on the whole pretty correct. It is a generalization, but it does seem to be correct in the majority of cases.
In fact, at my university, they offer courses on interview skills. Due to the high Asian population, they specifically gave some advice to Asians saying that they had to be more aggressive and outgoing (and reduce any self-deprecation) in order to compete.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:But I don't think I use it with its typical self-deprecating connotation.
Consider the use of "modest" when seeking to describe, say, a "modest" dress -- as opposed to saying something like "Annie modestly declined the award." The word is strained to its breaking point.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Tom, You're arguing semantics which is banal. English words commonly have numerous meanings. Take for example the word cleave which means both to stick together and to cut apart. Yet somehow or another the word hasn't broken yet.
We get around these weaknesses in our language by understanding context. Often the context is a specialized field where a more precise word is chosen or a common word is given a more precise definition.
Since Annie has recently returned from an LDS mission. I assume that the context in which she uses the word "humility" is from the specialized LDS meaning of the word. While the term "humility" may be frequently used to describe attitudes that are not inherently virtuous, within the LDS those attitudes are not true humility but something else. I would like to explain to you what humility means in the LDS context. Since you want to argue semantics, I'll give it a different name "demut" (from the german). For the purposes of this discussion, "demut" is the word I choose to mean the following and which is what I as an LDS individual understand as the virtue "humility".
1. A clear understanding of the limitations of ones own knowledge and wisdom.
2. A clear understanding of the limitations of ones own skills in comparisons to the ideal or perfect.
3. A willingness to publicly confess ones own limitations, mistakes and failings.
4. A willingness to learn from (and when appropriate submit to) those who are more knowledgeble, wise or skillful than ourselves.
"demut" is a virtue because it is the first step toward improvement of any kind.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Tom, You're arguing semantics which is banal.
Except that it's not. Very often we see people confusing people who do not wear "modest" clothing with people who lack "modesty," and then conflating the two attributes. Rarely do we see people accidentally confusing the uses of "cleave;" we do, however, see people promoting multiple definitions of "humility" in the same context and without making any attempt to distinguish between them.
Katie, for example, speaks of "pride" as an ugly thing that's opposed to "humility" -- but means by it something completely different. And of course the Japanese Compliment Game is something altogether different still.
If this were merely an irrelevant issue of semantics, it wouldn't be a problem. But people see nothing wrong with condemning "pride" and vaunting "humility" without establishing which sort of pride and/or which sort of humility they're talking about, and this gets propagated through the entire society. Is submission a virtue? Is a reluctance to acknowledge your strengths a virtue?
quote:"Demut" is a virtue because it is the first step toward improvement of any kind.
I was with you up to this point, and then you lost me. Up to here, I was perfectly in accord with your attempt to narrowly define the word; I personally still prefer "perspective" to "humility" to describe the first two, and "honesty" to describe the second two, but it's no big deal.
But then we butted up against your definition of "virtue." "Demut" may indeed be the first step towards improvement of any kind -- although, to be honest, I doubt it; I think there are some people and some situations for which it might be inappropriate -- but if that's why it's good, it's not a virtue. It's merely a mechanism by which actual virtue is achieved. I think the distinction is important -- semiotic, not merely semantic, if you will.
Humility for its own sake -- even if you're defining humility to mean "a willingness to improve" -- is still merely a means to an end: namely, improvement.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Tom, You're arguing semantics which is banal.
I just have to say I enjoyed this sentence enormously.
Carry on. This discussion is fascinating - thank you to all the participants.
Posted by Dusty (Member # 10266) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Welcome, Dusty! Thanks for sharing.
I have to admit to a huge curiosity over whether you're still there, did you grow up there, that sort of thing, but I'll refrain from giving you the third degree. Of course, you could always volunteer the information... You know, in an intro thread or something.
Thank you for your warm welcome, Quidscribis.
"The third degree" reminds me of Jack Bauer in 24, lol, but I guess I'm not as tough as he is, so I'm gonna tell you everything about myself.
Let me start from your question, yeah I'm still in China and actually I've never left my country. I'm a graduate student majoring in translation, which deals with both translation&interpretation practice and theory studies. I like my major but I'm always unconfident about my English level. This might be the very thing people are discussing here, the "look at me" attitude or the contrary, for when sometimes certain demanding job arrives, I wouldn't help but show a "don't look at me" attitude. lol.
Umm, what else about myself? See, here come the cultural differences again, I don't think I'd say enough about myself except being forced, not as far as by "the third degree" though. lol.
Anyway it's wonderful that I've found a cozy and active forum here. I'm new but I wish I could stay long and make friends with you guys, to learn and to share.
Cheerio~~ Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Despite the scare quotes, people who wear modest clothing DO lack modesty according to at least one definition of the word. To deny it is to play games with semantics.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Dusty, I don't know how your speaking and understanding skills are, but your writing is indistinguishable from that of a native speaker.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: Dusty, I don't know how your speaking and understanding skills are, but your writing is indistinguishable from that of a native speaker.
My reaction exactly.
Welcome to Hatrack, Dusty. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I remind you again that I'm using "scare quotes" not to call the definition of the word into doubt, but to indicate that we're specifically discussing the definition of the word itself. I just used scare quotes around "scare quotes" for the normal reason, though. Just so we're clear. *grin*
And, yes, one definition of "modest" does include "wears clothing which is deliberately non-provocative." This is, however, not a definition which by any stretch of the imagination can be conflated with "virtuous;" it simply piggybacks on other, more "virtuous" definitions of the word to steal their connotations.
Hit Dictionary.com to see the extremely hideous fruit of this definition of "modesty," the third in their list: "having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc." In itself, this seems harmless. A moment's thought, though, leads inevitably to the question: who gets to decide what's decent? What's particularly interesting is that in their discussion of synonyms, it's specifically this third definition which is said to be roughly synonymous with "pure" or "virtuous:" "Modest implies a becoming shyness, sobriety, and proper behavior."
Look at that again. Purity and virtue are here equated with "a becoming shyness" and "proper behavior" through what I can only suppose is the magic of banal semantics. *grin*
It's absolutely insidious. Leaving aside the sexism that usually dogs "modest," since in fairness there's no requirement that the word only be applied to women despite its unequal usage in practice, I have very real disagreements with the assertion that "purity" means "proper," or that "shyness" is "becoming," much less "virtuous." (Edit: if you want to see what I mean by sexism, try Googling "modest woman" versus "modest man." Don't pay attention to the number of hits, but look instead at the nature of the hits. Overwhelmingly, "modest" when used to describe women is equated with a lack of open sexuality and/or voluntary submissiveness; "modest" when used to describe a man is normally found in a context in which he is being lauded for his accomplishments.)
That it's an implied assertion, rather than an openly stated one, makes it all the harder to uproot.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Dusty - your English is impeccable!
Where in China are you? I'm trying to save money to visit my friend in her hometown of Xian. Anywhere else you recommend?
Posted by Dusty (Member # 10266) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Dusty - your English is impeccable!
Where in China are you? I'm trying to save money to visit my friend in her hometown of Xian. Anywhere else you recommend?
Thank you so much, Noemon, rivka and Annie, for your kindness and hospitality.
Annie, it's wonderful to know that you are planning to visit China! I'm now in Chongqing, a municipality in southwestern China, and my hometown is in the Northeast. I'd be glad to make a detailed introduction of these two places if you are interested, but first I'll start with the prior recommendations.
There are two places on my mind that I think are especially worth visiting. One is, of course, Beijing, the capital of China, where you will find the Forbidden City, the Great Wall, the Summer Palace and so on. I believe anyone interested in Chinese history and culture would have a rewarding and enjoyable tour there. Besides, people in Beijing are extremely hospitable, as you know the 2008 Olympic Games will be held there, everybody is enthusiastic about welcoming foreign guests, I bet you'd feel at home when you are there.
The second place is Suzhou, known as the Oriental Venice, in Zhejiang province on the east coast of China. This water town is famous for its elegant and exquisite gardens whose history could be traced back to more than 2000 years ago. I've been there once and I was absolutely in love with that tranquil place. Suzhou is also well known for its products of silk and embroideries, which are much favored by tourists and are often bought as gifts for families and friends.
As you know, like American, China is also a country with a vast territory, therefore there are bound to be many more places that are waiting for your visit with their own charm and characteristics. If you've got enough time, you can also choose among places like...say, Tibet, the Yellow Mountains in Anhui province, Jiuzhaigou in Sichuan provice (near Chongqing), Lijiang in Yunan province, to name but a few, according to your own interest.
I know that America is a country endowed with countless magnificent landscapes, so what I recommended above may have intentionally avoided those you might find a little repetitive from what you are familiar with. Beijing and Suzhou exhibit things very Chinese, I bet you'll like it there.
Here are some websites about traveling in China, wish they would be helpful to your future visit to my country.
Another tip, there are three cities you may avoid visiting in summer, Chongqing (yeah that's where I am), Nanjing and Wuhan, bcz it could be real hot then that you wouldn't be able to go anywhere in day time.
Please feel free to ask if you have any other questions, I'd be so glad if I could be of any help to you.
Posted by Dusty (Member # 10266) on :
About modesty, here's sth I'd like to share with you.
In China when someone tries too hard to deny something he or she is capable of, like in the case when the Japanese lady eschews from playing the piano in public, people would half jokingly push on "Being too modest is no different from being haughty." I don't know if you'd agree but in China there's a saying which goes like "Things turn into their opposites when they reach the extreme."
This saying is like a warning which has been said by so many people for so many times that people's attitude has somehow changed. For example, nowadays when you ask a kid "how are you getting on with you school work?" most probably the kid (if he or she is an average pupil) would answer "Not bad." which might seem perfectly appropriate to you but which would annoy the kid's parents who would then blame the kid, "How well are you doing indeed that you think it's not bad?"
I don't know if my words bare the implication clearly or not, but the parents who are of the former generation apparently are more affected by the modest way of thinking but not the kids any more.
What I'm trying to say here is that, modesty indeed needs to be judged within certain context, and that context is different from generation to generation, country to country, occasion to occasion.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Let me start from your question, yeah I'm still in China and actually I've never left my country. I'm a graduate student majoring in translation, which deals with both translation&interpretation practice and theory studies. I like my major but I'm always unconfident about my English level.
From what you're demonstrating here, you have no reason to lack confidence in your English. That was what confused me, actually - from what you said, it sounded like you grew up in China, but the way you wrote it was so much like a native English speaker (or, really, far far better than most), that it didn't quite make sense. But now that I see you're in translation, it makes sense - you have to be really good to do that.
quote:Anyway it's wonderful that I've found a cozy and active forum here. I'm new but I wish I could stay long and make friends with you guys, to learn and to share.
Oh please, do stay! We'll play nice, honest we will! Or, um, most of us anyway... Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
quote:That's actually how my conversation with Sister Onogawa ended up - we decided we wanted to found an island nation halfway through the Pacific that preserved the best of both cultures.
Wrong ocean, but you could buy Sealand.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: If this were merely an irrelevant issue of semantics, it wouldn't be a problem. But people see nothing wrong with condemning "pride" and vaunting "humility" without establishing which sort of pride and/or which sort of humility they're talking about, and this gets propagated through the entire society. Is submission a virtue? Is a reluctance to acknowledge your strengths a virtue?
Tom, you seem to be arguing that "humility" isn't a virtue because there are too many different but easily confused definitions of the word. Or perhaps you are arguing that its wrong to encourage "humility" because it is too easily confused with things that are not virtuous. If so, I would note that exactly the same observation can be made about "love". Would you argue that its wrong to encourage "love" because "love" can easily be confused with destructive attitudes and behaviors? "Justice" also has multiple definitions that are easily conflated and confused. Would you argue that it is wrong to promote "justice" because someone might confuse it with revenge?
quote:
quote:"Demut" is a virtue because it is the first step toward improvement of any kind.
I was with you up to this point, and then you lost me. Up to here, I was perfectly in accord with your attempt to narrowly define the word; I personally still prefer "perspective" to "humility" to describe the first two, and "honesty" to describe the second two, but it's no big deal.
First, I don't see that "honesty" and "perspective" are any less prone to misunderstanding than "humility". I seen people justify "cruelty" in the name of honesty and negligence in the name of "perspective". Second, I don't see how my fourth point falls under any common definition of honesty. It might be called teachability, but that term could be understood to mean posessing inherent talents which is not even close to what I mean. It might be called submission, but that also has connotations which are not accurate.
Finally, what I gave wasn't intended as four different definitions of "demut". It was four essential aspects of "demut". If you have anyone of these but not the others, it isn't "demut". For example, one could understand the limitation of their own knowledge but still believe that no one else could teach them anything. That wouldn't be "demut".
quote:But then we butted up against your definition of "virtue." "Demut" may indeed be the first step towards improvement of any kind -- although, to be honest, I doubt it; I think there are some people and some situations for which it might be inappropriate -- but if that's why it's good, it's not a virtue. It's merely a mechanism by which actual virtue is achieved. I think the distinction is important -- semiotic, not merely semantic, if you will.
Humility for its own sake -- even if you're defining humility to mean "a willingness to improve" -- is still merely a means to an end: namely, improvement. [/QB]
You ask people to defend why "humility" should be considered a virtue and yet maintain that if any reason is given, that automatically disqualifies it as a virtue. You argue that "humility" isn't a virtue because it has negative consequences. If you can identify a non-virtue by its effects, how can you then argue that a virtue can not be identified by its effects.
I thought quite hard before including that final statement because it is not fully accurate. I believe that "demut" is a virtue of first estate; i.e. desirable as an end in and of itself. But its pointless to argue about whether something is a virtue of first estate because any argument either for or against belies the underlying presumption. "Demut" is, however, also a virtue of second estate because it essential to the pursuit of other virtues.
Finally, I agree with you that submission if not necessarily a good thing, but "submission to a higher authority" is a good thing. And I should add that by "higher authority", I do not simple mean an authority that has more power or knowledge but one that also has "moral authority" by virtue of benevolence.
If Sophie had an ear infection, would you want her to submit to you and take her antibiotics even if they taste icky? Why? Not simply because you have a better understand that Sophie of why she needs the medicine and what it will do. Not simply because, if need be you can wrestle her to the ground and force her to take it or the power to punish her if she does not submit. But primarily because you love her and have her best interests in mind. You wouldn't ask her to drink lye. She should submit to you because you are a true "higher authority" who both knows more than she does and is deeply concerned for her well being.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie:
quote:Don't you think it's possible for a person to remain modest yet could appropriately seize the good opportunities to show his or her abilities?
I hope so That's actually how my conversation with Sister Onogawa ended up - we decided we wanted to found an island nation halfway through the Pacific that preserved the best of both cultures.
And Euripides, I know exactly what you mean. The humility is very often just surface. But it's cute, really. I love when you're eating something a cute little obachan cooked for you and you rave about how delicious it is and she says "aa sou? oishii?" with a little twinkle in her eyes. Everyone does love to be praised, no matter what the cultural convention for accepting praise. This probably explains the popularity of the Japanese Compliment Game.
You can thank the Chinese for The Compliment Game, but the folks in Japan definitely have their own twist.
Dusty: What province are you from/currently living in? I might be heading to Tibet this summer on a biking trip with my father. It's been 1.5 years since I've been to China and frankly it feels like a decade. I too am quite impressed with your command of the English language, your English is certainly more fluent then my Chinese Posted by Dusty (Member # 10266) on :
That's very sweet of you, quidscribis. lol.
Blackblade, I'm from Liaoning province and am now in Chongqing which is a municipality directly under the control of the central government. Chongqing used to belong to Sichuan province which borders upon Tibet. It's kinda close.
Tibet is always a most enchanting and breathtaking place, and it really thrills me to know that you are going to have the trip by bike! It must be different to ride a bike on the altiplano, lol, but I bet the experience would be well worth the effort that you are gonna make.
It's great to know that you can speak Chinese, how long have you been learning it? Some say that Chinese is one of the most difficult languages in the world, and I just think it cool for any foreign friend to speak it. Once I saw a Chinese speech contest on TV for overseas students, and students from the US, Canada, Australia, the UK, Japan, Korea and Vietnam (there must be other countries) participated in it and they really did an excellent job. Anyway, it's just cool.
Wish you a pleasant trip to Tibet, and, 旅行愉快, 一帆风顺! lv xing yu kuai, yi fan feng shun.
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This vague malaise set in as soon as I got to the Los Angeles airport and I haven't been able to shake it since.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Thanks for sharing. ![[The Wave]](graemlins/thewave.gif)