This is topic The official gathering thread for GLBTQ Hatrackers in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
Welcome, fellow GLBTs, and welcome those of you questioning.

I noticed the suggestion in the "so, um..." thread about starting a thread for gay hatrackers, and the mroe I thought about it, the more I realized that this is probably a really good idea. We have hatrackers from all stages of life here- from older people who came out years ago, to those who are just now discovering their budding sexuality.

Hatrackers support each other in times of need. This is no different. So welcome, those of you who need support. We're here for you.

~Erin, 18, bisexual
 
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
 
Jatraqueeros!

Phillip, 17, gay.
 
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I don't mean to be unsupportive....but this seems counterproductive to me.


As far as I know, hatrack gatherings have always been location based, and welcome to all hatrackers who could make it.


Regardless of sexual orientation.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
I don't mean to be unsupportive....but this seems counterproductive to me.

As far as I know, hatrack gatherings have always been location based, and welcome to all hatrackers who could make it.

Regardless of sexual orientation.

I think anyone is welcome here. Regardless of orientation. But a thread like this can make people feel less alone, or less different, you know? There've been threads that've been effectively for Mormons, or for Catholics, or for Jews. This seems like the same kind of thing.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Joldo:
Jatraqueeros!

Heh. I like that.

Lisa, 43, lesbian

[ March 07, 2007, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Lisa ]
 
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
I was thinking this could be mainly as a support thread for sexuality-specific issues, since we all know we have them. Me, for example- I could really use help getting my parents to understand that just because I'm attracted to men and women, it doesn't mean I'm sleeping around and that I'm attracted to every person I lay eyes on. THey seem to think that I'm only interested in sex now- when I'm saving my virginity for marriage/life-partnership(since gay marriage is illegal here in ohio).
 
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
quote:
Lisa, 43, lesbian (and post-op)
Not to be naive, but what does "post-op" mean? Where you a man who had an operation and are now a female and a lesbian? That's the only thing I can think of.

[Confused]
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Tinros: Getting past the "anything that moves" stereotype we have is pretty difficult. (And it doesn't help that there *are* some bisexuals who live that stereotype to the fullest.) But I think, if you reassure them that you're A> Monogamous and B> Saving yourself every time they bring it up or make a snarky comment, they'll eventually get the message.

However, opportunities arrive in your 20s that you might not have expected. If you're committed to saving yourself for marriage/life partner, be prepared for these opportunities and have the strength to say "no" to them.

~ Pix, 37 yr old, monogamously married, bisexual woman
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
You know, I posted that last night. I'm not sure why I included that part, but when I woke up this morning, my first thought was, "Why'd I do that?"

But while I probably wouldn't phrase it the way you did, it's more or less the case.
 
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
Heh. This is cool.
 
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
Wait, why is this a bad idea for Hatrack?
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Posting a "no straights allowed" sign would be bad for Hatrack.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Tara: If you're refering to what I said in the other thread, that only applies to the "No Straights Allowed" part.

I don't think we should shut out our heterosexual friends. Other than that, I think this thread is a good idea =)
 
Posted by Closeted (Member # 10270) on :
 
Can I participate in this thread even though I'm closeted?

Well, I'm out to a few Hatrackers, but not out in general.

Or is it only for the out and proud?
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Yeah, I have to admit I was put off by the idea that, as a straight, happily married woman I am not allowed in this thread. I am supportive of gay rights and I think I was one of five people in the state of Kansas to vote against the gay-marriage ban. [Smile] (I tried!)

It may be that I don't have a lot to say, since I can't really relate to the difficulties of realizing that you don't fit the accepted sexual norm, but I do hope that you won't shut me out if I happen to have something to add.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
((Closeted))

Of course you're welcome! Just be careful when you switch log ins. It's easy to out yourself.

Then again, Closets are lonely, sad, scarey places. Hopefully one day you can come out.

Christine: I'm a happily and monogamously married woman too. That doesn't make me straight, just spoken for. (and of course, you're welcome here too.)
 
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
 
But closets can eventually lead to Narnia, dear.
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
I think I was one of five people in the state of Kansas to vote against the gay-marriage ban. [Smile]

Wait, you're in Kansas? I had no idea! I'm from Lawrence (well, the country outside of Lawrence, actually), though I'm now living in Ohio.
 
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I do not know what the heck I am...
 
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
 
I like to cry in closets. Can I be in the Gulbit Club too?
 
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
 
GLBT: Guacamole, lettuce, bacon and tomato on rye, with a liberal bias for zing.
 
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Joldo:
GLBT: Guacamole, lettuce, bacon and tomato on rye, with a liberal bias for zing.

Yeah I was trying to think of something G could stand for, but all I thought of was gravy. Nice [Razz]
 
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Don't forget some slices of quince fruit on the side.
 
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I was thinking this was a thread about a Hatrack Gathering, where only gay people would be welcome/invited.


I have no issues at all with this being a thread for support of gay people, of course. As mentioned, there are all sorts of threads for all sorts of issues,and I guess this would not really be any different. [Smile]


Not that my approval counts for much, as it is, but still....


...if this WAS about a gay-only gathering, I would still think it would not be in good taste, and contrary to the what Hatrack means to me. [Smile]
 
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I do not know what the heck I am...

Pansexual!
 
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I seem to want a man...
But women are nice to look at.
Very nice to look at.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I seem to want a man...
But women are nice to look at.
Very nice to look at.

I've often thought that the world doesn't separate neatly into gay vs. straight. A friend in college used to say everyone was a little gay on a scale from 1 to 100, with 1 being perfectly straight and 100 being absolutely gay. A perfect bi would be a 50 (preferring neither gender).

I decided I was a 10...the female body is nice to look at, but that's as far as it goes with me. [Smile]
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Syn: Sounds like you're like me.. men are nice, but no man can give me whiplash like a woman.

It's more complicated than just "I'm bi" but that label fits. Men and women are sooo different and sooo wonderful... I used to think it was like Vanilla and Chocolate, but it's more like Pizza and Ice Cream. Men and Women are not simply two flavours, but two completely different and amazingly good things. (And they both feel so good pressed up against you, in very different ways)

When I was young I didn't understand this and thought I was a lesbian since guys are so damn ugly (and yet, reluctant to make love with a bag over thier head.)

Chrstine: Then there's the Kinsey Scale from 0 (straight) to 6 (Gay) with 3 as a perfect 50/50 bi. You won't find many people who fit exactly on to any of those numbers.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Christine, I get where you're coming from. I check out attractive people of either gender. All the time. But when it gets down to it, I only really likes the mens. [Razz]

-pH
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Don't forget some slices of quince fruit on the side.

It is almost impossible to find quince fruit in the US, even by online order. I needed some for a theme dinner I am working on and had to settle for a kind of jellied quince paste.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Myr wrote:
quote:

Pansexual!

Sex with bread?
 
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
At first I was nothing, no interest in either.
Then I started to liek WOMEN.
Then I started to like men.
Now i seem to really want a man (Especially a certain one) but I like LOOKING AT GIRLS BECAUSE GIRLS ARE HOT.
Perhaps I will get a girly looking man. Best of both worlds.

sex with bread *Snicker*
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Syn: How about you fall in love with who you fall in love with (and vice versa) and don't let what's between their legs get in your way?

(Sex with *snickers*?? Packed with peanuts, Snickers really satisfy)
 
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I won't...

But I still seem to want a man more though... Men seem so... appealing for some reason.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Syn: How long ago did you decide you wanted a guy? Could this just be a function of your pendulum? The part of your mind that swings back and forth between men and women?
 
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I bought quince syrup last weekend. They were sampling it at the store mixed with creme fraiche and served with toast points. Yum. I think I'm going to go have some over fruit now.

Also, boys and girls are both tasty. [Smile]
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by vonk:
I like to cry in closets. Can I be in the Gulbit Club too?

Giblets?
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Gulbittick.

Oooh, like a Cardassian...

-pH
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
actually I prefer to abreviate it "LBGT" Why should the boys get top billing?
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Back before they added the T (which was probably a bad idea, since T has nothing at all to do with G, L or B), there was a Jewish group called BaGeL.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Don't forget some slices of quince fruit on the side.

It is almost impossible to find quince fruit in the US, even by online order. I needed some for a theme dinner I am working on and had to settle for a kind of jellied quince paste.
Maybe in your state.

Go West, young woman!
 
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
 
Yeah, how come the Ts get in on our action? I mean, they're nice folk, but do they really count?

It just seems LGB is a sexuality/romantic thing, while T is purely gender-based.
 
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
It's been my experience that T's are almost all bi, so they would indeed fit with the group. They just like to... dress and act differently from what is socially accepted given their genetalia.
 
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
You know, we should just eliminated the terms of gay and straight completely and whoever you fall in love with is whoever you fall in love...sheesh. Considering how many people are somewhere in between straight and gay.

Even if we don't do that, we should eliminate the word "lesbian." What a horrid word.
 
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Joldo:
Yeah, how come the Ts get in on our action? I mean, they're nice folk, but do they really count?

It just seems LGB is a sexuality/romantic thing, while T is purely gender-based.

Transgendered individuals face many of the same barriers to equality that gays and lesbians do. Politically they have very much in common with "us". "Our action" is very much "their action". Such inclusivity is often problematic in it's own right, but it is also one of the GLBT movements greatest strengths.

quote:
Originally posted by Tinros:
It's been my experience that T's are almost all bi, so they would indeed fit with the group. They just like to... dress and act differently from what is socially accepted given their genetalia.

I could be totally misreading you, but from what you write above, it seems like you are taking the "T" to mean "Transvestite", which is a very different thing from "Transgendered" or "Transexual". I'm fairly certain the "T" refers to one or both of the latter and not to "Transvestite".
 
Posted by Abhi (Member # 9142) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
I've often thought that the world doesn't separate neatly into gay vs. straight. A friend in college used to say everyone was a little gay on a scale from 1 to 100, with 1 being perfectly straight and 100 being absolutely gay. A perfect bi would be a 50 (preferring neither gender).

I decided I was a 10...the female body is nice to look at, but that's as far as it goes with me. [Smile]

wow, that's exactly what i say! i'd say i'm between 10 and 15 the other way.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tinros:
It's been my experience that T's are almost all bi, so they would indeed fit with the group. They just like to... dress and act differently from what is socially accepted given their genetalia.

Interesting experience. About half the transwomen I've met have been exclusively heterosexual (into men), and about a third have been lesbians. Relatively few have been bi.

Though from your description, it sounds like you're talking more about crossdressers and drag queens. For transsexuals, it isn't about dressing or behavior; it's about identity.
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by KarlEd:
Transgendered individuals face many of the same barriers to equality that gays and lesbians do.

Only more so. But then, there are still places where blacks and Asians do, as well.

quote:
Originally posted by KarlEd:
Politically they have very much in common with "us". "Our action" is very much "their action". Such inclusivity is often problematic in it's own right, but it is also one of the GLBT movements greatest strengths.

Maybe. I can see the political thing. But I think it gives people a lot of wrong impressions. How many times is a gay or lesbian couple asked, "Which of you is the man and which is the woman?" It's because the think it has to be a gender issue. And the fact that a transwoman being lesbian is such a mindblower to some people is because of the assumption that someone transitioning male-to-female must really be a gay guy who just wants to find a more socially acceptable way to be with men.

quote:
Originally posted by KarlEd:
quote:
Originally posted by Tinros:
It's been my experience that T's are almost all bi, so they would indeed fit with the group. They just like to... dress and act differently from what is socially accepted given their genetalia.

I could be totally misreading you, but from what you write above, it seems like you are taking the "T" to mean "Transvestite", which is a very different thing from "Transgendered" or "Transexual". I'm fairly certain the "T" refers to one or both of the latter and not to "Transvestite".
Transgendered is a blanket term that includes transsexuals, crossdressers, drag queens, and pretty much anyone whose gender issues skew from the norm. As such, a lot of transsexuals hate being lumped into this umbrella category.
 
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Syn: How long ago did you decide you wanted a guy? Could this just be a function of your pendulum? The part of your mind that swings back and forth between men and women?

I do not know, sometimes it does swing depending on rejection, but I seem to want babies for some reason as well...
Been wanting a particular guy for a year and a half...
 
Posted by Closeted (Member # 10270) on :
 
I'm glad you are welcoming the closeted Hatrackers, too. Maybe some others can come over here, too.

You are likely familiar with me under my regular screen name. I'm a married woman, with kids, and no plans to leave my husband. Thus, I've made the choice to stay closeted. And since I strongly value marital fidelity, I do not have any extra-marital relationships.

But I do identify as a lesbian. It's not so much lonely in the closet as...frustrating.
 
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
Closeted,

You sound like you are in a tough boat and doing as best you can with it. I would hope your husband could be an understanding confidant about this... I know I would want to be if I was in his situation... but I totally understand being nervous about discussing it in even the best of relationships.

I wish you well.
 
Posted by Closeted (Member # 10270) on :
 
I'm out to my husband and to some friends, but not to the kids. I don't think it would be good for them to wonder about the stability of their parent's marriage.
 
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
I'm glad to hear you and your husband have discussed it... it speaks *very* highly of both of you that you have.
 
Posted by Closeted (Member # 10270) on :
 
Like a lot of women in my situation, I was slow to catch on and understand my own sexuality. And I married young. But my husband is a wonderful man, and I wouldn't want to hurt him, and I do love him. So, we're staying together forever.
 
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
quote:
Transgendered is a blanket term that includes transsexuals, crossdressers, drag queens, and pretty much anyone whose gender issues skew from the norm.
Well, in terms of "GLBT", it's probably a necessary blanket term (to avoid "GLBTgTsCdDq", but I agree it's fuzzy to the point of being almost worthless outside that context. Regardless, I am extremely skeptical of the idea that "almost all of them are bi." (Except isofar as the majority of the human population can be considered "bi" to some degree). Additionally, the term "drag queen" is a huge catch-all term, and it's almost always considered something separate from transvestitism (at least by the insiders). Many "drag queens" are in some degree of transition towards becoming women, but I imagine the vast majority of male-to-female transsexuals go through the entire transition without ever considering themselves "drag queens". Likewise, there are huge numbers of "drag queens" and dabblers in the drag scene who completely identify as gay men and aren't at all transitioning.
 
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Closeted, I do know of other married couples where one is same sex attracted, and yet they're able to make the marriage work and both are happy. It may not be advertised, and I imagine it takes work, but it is possible. Good luck.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Closeted, is your husband aware of your preferences?
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Closeted:
I'm out to my husband and to some friends....


 
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quidscribis:
Closeted, I do know of other married couples where one is same sex attracted, and yet they're able to make the marriage work and both are happy. It may not be advertised, and I imagine it takes work, but it is possible. Good luck.

I imagine a lot of that would depend on if the person was still sexually attracted to their spouse?
 
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I imagine a lot of that would depend on if the person was still sexually attracted to their spouse?

I could see this taking a back seat to some other things.
 
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Well, of course.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim-Me:
quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I imagine a lot of that would depend on if the person was still sexually attracted to their spouse?

I could see this taking a back seat to some other things.
I don't know...they say that when sex is good it's about 10% of a relationship and when it's bad, it's about 90%.

TMI warning....a while back I had some problems that caused sex to be painful for me. This went on for a long time because it took 4 doctors to finally correctly diagnose and treat me. My husband tried to be understanding but it definitely was negatively impacting things. I'm so glad I finally found a doctor to take me seriously. If this had been a permanent problem with no solution (ie I was not sexually attracted to men), I'm not sure our relationship could have survived. Then again, every relationship is different.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
It also depends on how important sex is to both parties. Some people have low sex drives. Especially as they get older.

If sex drive IS an issue, it could depend on if the les/gay partner is grossed out by the opposite sex or just finds the same sex much more appealing. Maybe they could still function with their MOTOS spouse. I would think someone who was completely grossed out by the opposite sex would still have their Gold Star and would not marry a MOTOS partner, but I haven't taken any polls.

Pix
 
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
Closeted,
If I may ask, how does intimacy work? What a tough situation for both you and your husband. I hope it all works out.

Jack
 
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
 
quote:
Likewise, there are huge numbers of "drag queens" and dabblers in the drag scene who completely identify as gay men and aren't at all transitioning.
That's how I always thought of it; a drag queen being a man, straight or gay, who is dressing up as a woman for fun, whereas a transexual would be confused about their gender identity, or not confused but started out in the wrong body. Kinda like in Birdcage they're drag queens and in Priscilla Queen of the Desert they are transexual. Or, on the flip side, a woman putting on a pinstrip suit and fedora and painting a mustage would be in drag, while a woman who for all appearances looks like a male, dresses like a male, thinks of themself like as a male and is referred to as a male, would be transexual. I dunno. I'm not claiming to be correct on this or anything, just interested in the semantic differences, based both on curiosity and a desire not to offend anyone (my neighborhood has a large GLBTgTsCdDq population).

Also, I guess on a related note, when one meets a female to male transexual, but is not sure whether they actually are transexual or just have a very butch style, is it appropriate to ask? or just say 'he'? On the flip side of that one: I almost always refer to any male to female transexual/dq as 'she,' and when I'm wrong, it's always been more funny than embarrasing.
 
Posted by Closeted (Member # 10270) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by brojack17:
Closeted,
If I may ask, how does intimacy work?

Well, THAT'S a personal question!

Like a lot of things in a marriage, it is a compromise. Less often than he'd like, more often than I'd like. He deserves marital relations, and it would be unfair to deny him that. It is not appealing to me, but, honestly, there are other "chores" I do as a wife that also don't appeal to me. I clean the bathroom. I wash dishes. I have marital relations. It may not be my favorite thing to do, but it doesn't do me any harm. And I try to make it nice for him, because, like I said, he deserves that.

I used to pretend to be satisfied, to make him happy, but he once asked if I ever "faked it", and when I admitted that I did, he told me that he didn't need or want that from me, so I stopped. There are things that I do get satisfaction from, physically. I enjoy the warmth and closeness of cuddling. Sometimes I'll rub his back, and pretend in my mind that it is a woman's back I'm caressing.

And for my own needs, well, I take care of that myself.
 
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I wish you all the best things in life for you and your husband, Closeted. Be happy. [Smile]
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I'll second that.

I'll also add that while I don't envy you guys the challenges that the situation must inevitably present to you, I absolutely respect both you and your husband's commitment to the relationship and to each other.
 
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
What Noemon said. Be happy. [Smile]
 
Posted by Closeted (Member # 10270) on :
 
Thanks, guys. I'm not unhappy. I have a wonderful family, a stable life, a caring and understanding husband. Actually, my life is pretty fulfilling. If I am not 100% fulfilled in every aspect of my life, well, I ask you, who is?

I stand by the decisions I've made. And I respect people who have made other decisions. My path is certainly not for everyone. But I think it is right for me.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Sex and sexuality is only part of intimacy. I noticed that in your answer, you gravitated towards sex (which sounds like a bit of a challenge). I hesitate to expand on this because I thought it was a pretty darn personal question in the first place. You didn't have to answer and you sure don't have to answer this, but...To me, intimacy in a marriage goes to the heart and soul of how a couple connects. Sex can be a part of that, but especially if it is not equally fulfilling and engaging to both partners, I would say sex isn't much of intimacy. How do you connect to your husband?

In my relationship, we connect a lot through talking. We are best friends and I would actually say that this friendship is the most intimate thing about our marriage. Since you were being personal, I'll go ahead and reciprocate...the sex is fine for me but I don't have a huge sex drive so I wouldn't mention it first if I were to describe how intimacy works between my husband and I. I'd say friendship...then cuddling...then sex.

Reading between the lines of your posts, it sounds like you probably have a great friendship and it's great that you can be honest with one another. I really do wish you the best and feel free to ignore my line of questioning if you think it's out of line. [Smile]
 
Posted by Closeted (Member # 10270) on :
 
My husband is my best friend. I love him, I admire him, and he is a hero to me. I really don't think there is a more wonderful person in the world.

We used to talk and laugh all the time. Now, we still talk, but I don't think it is our main way of connecting. Now, after kids and many years of marriage, there is a quiet intimacy. A look or a touch communicates so much more than words do. We are closely bonded, linked together so tightly that it is like we can read each other's thoughts and feelings.

We are completely honest and forthright with each other. If we weren't, I guess it would have been easy to keep my orientation a secret.

We depend on each other every day. We have love. We have intimacy. We have a deep respect for each other.

Why would my being a lesbian change that?
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Closeted:

Why would my being a lesbian change that?

In your case, it doesn't sound like it does. I like to say that every marriage is negotiated between the two partners and that there are a lot of different ways to make marriages work. Some couples spend a lot of time apart and come together seldom and passionately -- but it works for them. Some couples have absolutely no sex at all and live their lives together as best friends -- and that works for them. As long as both you and your partner have come together and accept these terms, then this is what works for you. I would say that it could easily not work for someone else -- someone who needs a sexual connection with his/her spouse to be happy -- but those people need to work through their own problems in their own ways.

Thanks for answering. I've often found that these kinds of discussions can be helpful to people who are still unsure about their own path through life.
 
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Closeted:
quote:
Originally posted by brojack17:
Closeted,
If I may ask, how does intimacy work?

Well, THAT'S a personal question!

Like a lot of things in a marriage, it is a compromise. Less often than he'd like, more often than I'd like. He deserves marital relations, and it would be unfair to deny him that. It is not appealing to me, but, honestly, there are other "chores" I do as a wife that also don't appeal to me. I clean the bathroom. I wash dishes. I have marital relations. It may not be my favorite thing to do, but it doesn't do me any harm. And I try to make it nice for him, because, like I said, he deserves that.

I used to pretend to be satisfied, to make him happy, but he once asked if I ever "faked it", and when I admitted that I did, he told me that he didn't need or want that from me, so I stopped. There are things that I do get satisfaction from, physically. I enjoy the warmth and closeness of cuddling. Sometimes I'll rub his back, and pretend in my mind that it is a woman's back I'm caressing.

And for my own needs, well, I take care of that myself.

It certainly was not my intention to offend. If the question was inappropriate, a simple "no you may not ask" would suffice.

My reason for the question is because there have been intimacy issues with my wife and myself over the past year and a half. She had mentioned how she had "experimented" with women in the past. Your post, along with some gut feelings I have had, made me think she may be struggling with the same issue.

I apologize for being so blunt with my question. Maybe next time I will send a direct e-mail, but I thought the reason we all post on forums is so we can all learn/discuss.

I'm sorry if I offended you.

Jack
 
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
Today I told the guy that keeps asking me out that I was gay. That was the first I'd ever told anyone...It was hard, but not as hard as I expected, cause I think I prepared myself well. (I kept repeating what I was going to say over and over and over and telling myself that I absolutely HAD TO DO IT, and that really helped).

I'm so glad I did, because now I won't have to deal with him asking me out, and his feelings aren't hurt.

He was really, really awkward about it though. [Razz] Also I don't know how disappointed he is, I'll have to wait till I see him again.
 
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I had some girl tell me she was gay, and then a couple weeks later at a party, she was kissing some dude. :/
 
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
 
*waves*

Hitoshi, gay.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tara:
Today I told the guy that keeps asking me out that I was gay. That was the first I'd ever told anyone...It was hard, but not as hard as I expected, cause I think I prepared myself well. (I kept repeating what I was going to say over and over and over and telling myself that I absolutely HAD TO DO IT, and that really helped).

I'm so glad I did, because now I won't have to deal with him asking me out, and his feelings aren't hurt.

He was really, really awkward about it though. [Razz] Also I don't know how disappointed he is, I'll have to wait till I see him again.

Edit: Nevermind, for some reason at first I thought you said that he'd asked you out of the blue if you were gay, and I was like, huh?

-pH
 
Posted by Lavalamp (Member # 4337) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Closeted:
My husband is my best friend. I love him, I admire him, and he is a hero to me. I really don't think there is a more wonderful person in the world.

We used to talk and laugh all the time. Now, we still talk, but I don't think it is our main way of connecting. Now, after kids and many years of marriage, there is a quiet intimacy. A look or a touch communicates so much more than words do. We are closely bonded, linked together so tightly that it is like we can read each other's thoughts and feelings.

We are completely honest and forthright with each other. If we weren't, I guess it would have been easy to keep my orientation a secret.

We depend on each other every day. We have love. We have intimacy. We have a deep respect for each other.

Why would my being a lesbian change that?

This post made me feel much more hopeful about your situation. To be frank, the one where you mentioned chores really had me concerned. But if the above is a good description of your life together, than I think it's actually quite remarkable and you are both lucky to have such a relationship.
 
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
 
Closeted, you are kind of my hero. I know you're probably just a regular person making the best choices you can, but that is what's so great.

If my parents were in a situation like yours, I would hope that they would try that course. I also would hope that if i found myself in similar circumstances that my partner and I would try to make things work as a family. I believe love and families are more important than sexual gratification, and sometimes there are sacrifices like yours - but it gives me hope. To what specifically? I don't know... just in people, I suppose.
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I know a girl who insists she's a lesbian, but has only dated guys for the last several years. She lives in Berkeley, it's not like there are a shortage of other lesbians around [Razz]
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by porcelain girl:
Closeted, you are kind of my hero. I know you're probably just a regular person making the best choices you can, but that is what's so great.

If my parents were in a situation like yours, I would hope that they would try that course. I also would hope that if i found myself in similar circumstances that my partner and I would try to make things work as a family. I believe love and families are more important than sexual gratification, and sometimes there are sacrifices like yours - but it gives me hope. To what specifically? I don't know... just in people, I suppose.

While I understand what you're saying here, I feel the need to point out to you that if a relationship is really not working then it tends to be better for the family for them to split up, even if there are children. "Better to be from a broken home than a dysfunctional one" is the way I've heard it said. And while it's nice that what has worked for Closeted can work for some, "sexual gratification" as you so crassly put it is an enormous part of most mature adult relationships. I wouldn't want anyone to think that just because one person can make a marriage work without physical attraction that everyone can or should make it work that way.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Christine, "if I found myself similar circumstances" doesn't mean "in all circumstances, no matter what."

Nor did she say she desires "everyone" (with the exception of herself and her parents "if this happened") to consider following Closeted's example should they find themselves in a similar situation.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
MC: Have you SEEN the dykes in Berkeley?? (then again, have you seen the GUYS?)
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Puffy Treat:
Christine, "if I found myself similar circumstances" doesn't mean "in all circumstances, no matter what."

Nor did she say she desires "everyone" (with the exception of herself and her parents "if this happened") to consider following Closeted's example should they find themselves in a similar situation.

My biggest concern in porcelain girl's post was the very last part:

quote:
I believe love and families are more important than sexual gratification, and sometimes there are sacrifices like yours - but it gives me hope. To what specifically? I don't know... just in people, I suppose.
This sentiment felt very naive to me, and is entirely the reason that I felt the need to point out that mature adult relationships aren't just a choice between love and family and sexual gratification. I don't think the question of generalizations really comes into it.

[ March 10, 2007, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Christine ]
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Christine: But that's exactly the choice Closeted is making, and she's making the right one. This isn't an abusive situation where she's taking black eyes for the sake of staying married for the kids, she's just not getting her rocks off.
 
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
 
Where did she say mature adult relationships are "just a choice between love and family and sexual gratification"?


Where does she say she feels that "everyone" should feel the way she does?

Seems like some generalizations are being made here here, because you're filling in what she "must also think" based on one specific opinion.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I think that what Christine is writing - at least what I am reading - is that, for some people, sex is not about sexual gratification. It can be, not for everyone, a necessary way to connect intimately with your partner. If that connection is out of balance, it can be a bigger problem than just the loss of arousal and orgasm.

I'm glad that what Closeted has works for her and her husband. It might not work for everyone.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Thank you, kmbboots, I was beginning to think I was speaking Greek or something. [Smile]
 
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
I'm glad that what Closeted has works for her and her husband. It might not work for everyone.

*nod* I greatly admire Closted for continuing to be in her relationship, since I can say frankly I wouldn't be able to do so if I were in her situation.
 
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
 
Christine, my parents are divorced and it was absolutely the right decision under _their_ circumstances. I have never been a believer in "stay together for the children" as I was one of those children and it tore apart my whole world when my parents were together and unhappy.

I didn't think I was generalizing in my post, and I'm not so naive to think that sexual gratification is the only point in sex and that is the only reason someone might end a relationship, either.

However, it would be a mistake to believe that a lot of people don't selfishly leave committed relationships to seek more exciting sexual lives.

Maybe I completely misunderstood Closeted posts, but to me it sounds like where sexual fulfillment lacks, intimacy and devoted love picks up - and i am glad that is a priority for her and her partner, because that is NOT always the case. And I'm not naive for thinking so.
Nor did I think referring to sexual gratification was crass. Leaving someone over it is, though.
 
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
 
I think that these situations vary by case to case basis and due the people involved. What Closeted and her husband are doing seems to be the best solution for them, and I too really admire the choice they have made.

Anyway, I'm Snail, 22, gay and also closeted to most people.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
porcelain_girl: Ahhh...I see. Yes, I was misinterpreting some of what you wrote in your first post. You seem to be on the same page I am. [Smile]
 
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
The day my parents got divorced was probably the best day of my life...
 
Posted by esl (Member # 3143) on :
 
Hey Tara, Congratulations on coming out to your first Real Life person! He should feel special.

~ esl (female), 22, sorta gay
 
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tara:
The day my parents got divorced was probably the best day of my life...

Funny how I read this book that said the opposite...
But I didn't like that book that much. It was filled with evidence that was mostly annecdotal *random*
 
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
I am very saddened to read that, Tara, for the environment you must have grown up in.

I really think divorce should be looked at as an amputation-- an ugly, but sometimes necessary procedure. Having been through one, now, I also wish the states (Texas and South Carolina) involved were a little more respectful of my decision making process.
 
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Sorry I'm late.
-Karl, 29, gay.
[Smile]
 
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
 
What, Telp's gay? Who knew?
 
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by esl:
Hey Tara, Congratulations on coming out to your first Real Life person! He should feel special.


Thanks! [Smile] I don't think he feels very special actually. But that's ok.
 
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
Wow. Honestly, I'm surprised this thread got as many responses as it did. I didn't know we had such a large GLBT community on here.

Just goes to show ya.
 
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
We're everywhere. [Eek!]
 
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Run! Run for your lives! [Eek!]


[Wink]
 
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
 
Also late to the party. I self-identify as bi, although I've never been in a relationship with a girl. I certainly didn't mind kissing them, though. [Wink] Anyways, I'm happily married now, so the point is sorta moot. Still get to look at girls, though.

I tell my friends that I'm bi, if they inquire, but I've never told my family (other than said husband), and I certainly don't intend to - it would be all sorts of awkward, and possibly include yelling and hurt looks. Does that make me closeted, or just reasonably intelligent?
 
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Personally, I would say the latter. I am not one of those people that believes that the truth will always set you free. Sometimes the truth complicates matters, or no really *needs* to know.

This isn't to say that gay people shouldn't come out when it is best for them. I just think that sometimes there's a better time and place, if that makes sense. I also think that it's the person's own decision, and that not all gay people have to be soldiers in the gay army that have to carry the standard with them wherever they go.

This is probably, I'm guessing, a source of some discussion in the gblt community. So, I'm sure my little nuggets of straight wisdom are either blindly ignorant, or simplistic. If so, feel free to set me straight. So to speak.
 
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Joldo:
What, Telp's gay? Who knew?

Hehehe...
 
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
Heh, yeah, Stormie, I agree with you. I'm of the opinion that if someone asks me outright, I'll tell the truth, and I'm open about supporting the cause of gay rights- but I don't go around wearing my sexuality on my sleeve.
 
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
 
I'm as straight as they come, and people of any persuasion who wear their sexuality on their sleeve quietly annoy me.
 
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Not to speak for others, but I've come to realize that for people who are in committed relationships with someone of the same sex, often "wearing their sexuality on their sleeve" is as simple as having a picture of yourself with your sweetie on your desk. Or mentioning a vacation you went on together. Or just a kiss on the cheek when your love drops you off at work.

And so the simple becomes more complicated than one might think.

(Not that this is necesarrily what anyone meant above -- it was not in response to a specific post, but more in addition to the ongoing conversation.)
 
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
 
I meant "wearing my sexuality on my sleeve" as things like randomly bringing it up in conversation for no reason whatsoever. I remember being highly annoyed by a girl in my early years of high school... when she moved here, the first thing she said to anyone was "I'm bisexual, and I like vampires." It was... creepy, I guess. Nothing wrong with honesty... but there's a time and a place for that, and blurting it out as soon as you meet someone is just wrong, IMHO.
 
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
CT, yeah. Sometimes I won't hold hands with my boyfriend depending on where we are. Other times I don't care, but it kind of sucks that I feel like I have to censor myself like that.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Telperion the Silver:
quote:
Originally posted by Joldo:
What, Telp's gay? Who knew?

Hehehe...
Hey. Who knew that he was only 29! Yikes!
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tinros:
Wow. Honestly, I'm surprised this thread got as many responses as it did. I didn't know we had such a large GLBT community on here.

Really? I kind of assumed that everyone here was gay.

Little quirk I have.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Jhai: Every one of us that come out touches dozens of people who learn that we're not so bad as we have been painted to be.
 
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
 
In my case, I know I need to come out to my parents one day if I'm going to start dating someone and live a relatively normal life. It's just that I'm not a very social person, I don't have that many friends, and at the moment my family is in many ways all I have. Now, my Dad thinks gay people are all pedophiles and my Mum thinks they're all terribly self-obsessed. (On top of that my Dad is involved in the local politics and it would hurt him there having a gay son, and even if I'm not exactly planning on telling all his friends I know it'd still be a big thing for him.) I know that if I came out to them they'd eventually accept me, but I also know that it wouldn't happen straight away. It could take years. So I suppose this is extremely selfish reasoning from me, but as long as I'm still forming my circle of friends outside the family I'm not planning to tell them... because if they abandoned me right now I'd have no one to fall back to.
 
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
Snail: That's why I didn't come out to my parents until I finished grad school. I didn't have anyone to fall back on during the "Come around to accept it" years either.
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
quote:
Now, my Dad thinks gay people are all pedophiles and my Mum thinks they're all terribly self-obsessed.
Give your Dad a dictionary, and you've got one problem licked. I've heard of people thinking homosexual behavior is deviant, but he's way off base if he thinks it's the same as pedophilia.

The definition of 'bi' that several of you appear to be using means there are a whole lot more bisexuals than I'd ever imagined.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Statistically speaking, heterosexual men are more likely to be child sexual predators than homosexual men. Just a little something I picked up in a psych class...
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Is that just because there are more of them, or is it percentage-based?
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
That statement, as written, could not be affected by changes in the proportion of homosexual and heterosexual men.
 
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
 
Yes, Lisa, it is based on percentage. It would be pretty silly to just say that most child sexual predators are heterosexual because there are so many more heterosexual men. [Smile]
 
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Silliness abounds. I would have figured it'd be about equal. I'm kind of surprised that there's any difference based on orientation.
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
I suspect that, once the uncertainty in estimating the homosexual male population is factored in, the difference is not statistically significant.
 
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Christine:
Yes, Lisa, it is based on percentage. It would be pretty silly to just say that most child sexual predators are heterosexual because there are so many more heterosexual men. [Smile]

But that type of reasoning is applied to arguments on both side of the aisle all the time. Not that you do it, but I hear it all the time from people who are just trying to justify a pre-determined stance.


Shoddy logic doesn't seem to worry them at all, so it was a valid question, although I got what you meant right away. [Smile]
 
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
 
quote:
Give your Dad a dictionary, and you've got one problem licked. I've heard of people thinking homosexual behavior is deviant, but he's way off base if he thinks it's the same as pedophilia.
Which is why I think that, given time, he will come to see things my way. It seems to me to be actually quite common here in Finland for people to see a connotation between the advancement of gay rights and the increase in pedophilia cases. (Though the latter, I've understood, is largely due the fact that stuff such as that didn't really get reported so easily in the past decades, so the increase is simply in the reported cases as parents have become more conscious of these issues, not the cases themselves.) My Dad's opinions are largely based on ignorance and the fact he doesn't really know any homosexual people, but he's not an irrational person. It just wouldn't happen overnight.

quote:
Snail: That's why I didn't come out to my parents until I finished grad school. I didn't have anyone to fall back on during the "Come around to accept it" years either.
Yeah... It just feels so bad to be hiding things from the people you love. It's like they have this whole image created of what I'm like and then in the end I am nothing like that.
 


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