quote:

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Wow. That was disturbing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Wow. The article is interesting, but the letters really made me sit up and take notice. Amazing.

I appreciated the voice on Post 3 of Page 3: this is not a necessary, predictable result whenever women serve alongside of men in the military. It is heavily culturally informed, and the lack of this as such a significant problem in other countries with women soldiers should be noted. And underscored.

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Edited to add: And also Post 3 on Page 6, albeit for different reasons. The writer references The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe as well as eloquently arguing that seeing war as ugly and brutal only when women are involved is a problem in itself.

War is sometimes necessary. It is always harsh and always brutal. Sometimes that harshness and brutality is necessary, but it still remains what it is.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
If the incidence of rape in other countries' militaries is lower, which I'm not necessarily sure is true, but let's have it as a given for now, what elements of which culture are causing the number of rapes in the American military? Can you elaborate?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
If the incidence of rape in other countries' militaries is lower, which I'm not necessarily sure is true, but let's have it as a given for now, what elements of which culture are causing the number of rapes in the American military? Can you elaborate? I think it is a given that (if one grants the hypothetical, as you note) the issue must be heavily informed by culture, because the difference would not be explainable by basic human nature. You would have men in one cultural context behaving differently from men in another cultural context; the men are still men, and it is the culture which changed.

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quote:

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But I'm not sure I know enough to make specific claims about which differences in the cultures would be the relevant ones. I can think of several possibilities, but as I understand it, you aren't asking me to list hypothetical possibilities -- rather, to tell you which possibilities I think are the ones actually at play. I'm not sure I am prepared to do that at the level of confidence for which you are asking. [/qb]

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I'm cool with you hypothesizin' on this issue, with the given that the level of confidence may be low.

[ March 09, 2007, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

quote:

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I appreciated the voice on Post 3 of Page 3: this is not a necessary, predictable result whenever women serve alongside of men in the military. It is heavily culturally informed, and the lack of this as such a significant problem in other countries with women soldiers should be noted. And underscored.

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quote:

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Rape is never excusable, but one does have to consider some of the circumstances involved. high stress sitations for months/years at a time with little-no true rest/relaxation time. The only members of the opposite sex you encounter being your comrades in arms. no outlet for your sexual frustration etc. no outlet for your social leanings outside your unit... these kinds of things are recipe for trouble.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I'm cool with you hypothesizin' on this issue, with the given that the level of confidence may be low.

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Well, then, I'm yours.

My best guess is that the primary reason is the newness of this shift in gender divide. I think Israli men who have grown up in families where their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, cousins, and female friends have (or will have) served in compulsory military service probably have a whole different set of stories and underlying assumptions about women in general, as well as women in the military.

Secondarily, I think that growing up with the expectation of going into military service makes for a less, hmmm, abrupt and traumatic transition into doing this work. That is, even if young men in the States choose willingly to go into such service (as opposed to being drafted), that transition is a time of becoming something which is not the norm. So the act of joining may become (for a given individual) symbolic of bravery, or nobility, or of Being a Man, or of any of a host of things. Or not. Or that break with the rest of society (a setting off of oneself, of marking oneself as different) may be dealt with in ritualized ways, such as taking a lonely hike on one's own into the desert before one begins Basic Training in order to mark this time as different. Or getting a tattoo. Or not.

And, of course, in countries with compulsory service, there are doubtlessly such rituals, too. But I expected they are more standardized in the culture, that there are ways that have come up organically in order to mark that time in a more structured and, hmmm, better-acknowledged way. I suspect there are a lot of young men who are dealing with the stress of that setting apart of oneself on their own. And that, I suppose, may lead to extra and unresolved tensions when it is not the norm to be set apart in one's culture this way.

Plus, there is the issue of greater income disparity and over-representation of young men from particular backgrounds on the frontlines. I think this is a force at play, but not the major one. That's why I listed it last. However, it is a tension that will arise out of a non-compulsory-service culture that isn't there (at least, not effectively much) in a culture where everyone must serve.

Those are my guesses for a first pass. They make sense to me, but I'm not wedded to them. I'm also not interested enough in either exploring or defending them at this point to get into an extended discussion, but I'm okay with just setting them out there on the shelf to sit on their own. (Feel free to poke and prod as you wish, but they are on their own now. )

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Edited to add: In case it isn't clear, I am not saying that individual male soldiers don't have personal responsibility. Nor am I saying that most of them do or will rape female colleagues. Far from it.

This was an attempt to list some of the cultural differences that might inform some of the different behaviors we may see among some of our male soldiers that may not be seen in male soldiers of some other countries.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
By the way, it's not clear to me that this article is, uh, absolutely true. I hope we're all reading it with a grain of salt.

One of the reasons that I provided the link to the letters is so some kind of context could be given to the article.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TheGrimace:
Certainly there are going to be some aspects of this that are influenced by cultural specifics (perhaps we are too sexually repressed on some fronts and not enough on others, perhaps the pervasiveness of sexual objectivisation of women in the media causes inherently less respect for their persons than other cultures, perhaps we are taught too much that masturbation and the like is something to be ashamed of but promiscuous sex is not...)

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quote:

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but there are also going to be some aspects that are true across cultures, and I'm sure that if someone did a study of other militaries with similar situations (i.e. females in effectively combat positions) that at least somewhat similar results would be found (but obviously not necessarily the same results)

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I actually doubt this, but I'm interested enough to go looking to see what information has been gathered on this topic cross-culturally. I don't, however, expect that if I found I was right, it would change your mind, not anyone else's. (Am I wrong? Would it make a difference to you if this were not the case? I'd find that pretty cool, actually.)
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

quote:

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I think it was not a very stellar piece of investigative journalism, for sure. Not on the level of the chocolate expose we discussed here recently. And there are certainly several bones to pick with the data collection referenced in the article.

But it wasn't the article that intrigued me -- it was the responses and the arguments used in them. That was intriguing reading.

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quote:

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I think this article would have been more compelling had the author actually taken the time to report on how rape and sexual assault reports are treated by the military. From the article, it is unclear who does investigations and prosecutions, although it is erroneously implied that both are done at the command level. While a commanding officer may decide to prefer charges, investigations in the military are done by military or civilians investigators. Cases are prosecuted and judged in a well-established legal system. As a (civilian) woman who works in a remote location with the military, I believe that these women could have been harassed and assaulted, but this article presents little more than anecdotal stories. Where are the interviews with the COs who let harassament occur? What about interviews with male soldiers serving in Iraq? The problem is worth probing, in-depth coverage and we don't have that here.

In my civilian capacity, I work for the military and investigate such crimes. Although I have not been in Iraq, they are incredibly difficult crimes to bring to prosecution even under "good" working conditions. Commanders, even ones with best intentions, may try to "fix" the problem themselves, and, at some level, all crimes in the military are viewed more with an eye towards maintaining command readiness than the pursuit of justice. That said, even out of Iraq, the environment of the military creates its own, non-gender-biased problems. Many of those serving in our military are very young and the environment in which they work if akin to a civilian's college days, but with the addition of guns and life-threatening dangers. Drunken parties, indiscriminate sexual practices, and the immaturities that come with being in your late teens and early twenties abound. It is often difficult to find witnesses to rape or sexual assault cases, much less ones who were sober and can provide an account that will stand up in court. Imagine if the random hookups and debauched parties of your college days influenced your career advancement and were also subject to prosecution. For the 18-24 year olds (who make up the bulk of sex crime victims and perpetrators in the military), this is what is happening. In some ways, the only way to substantially reduce these crimes would be to eliminate alcohol consumption and unsupervised parties, neither of which would go over well. To address the problems of sexual assault in and out of a war zone, we need to address not only the very real problem of bias against women, but also the culture that our soldiers live and train outside of war.

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quote:

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Well, then, I'm yours. [Smile]

My best guess is that the primary reason is the newness of this shift in gender divide. I think Israli men who have grown up in families where their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, cousins, and female friends have (or will have) served in compulsory military service probably have a whole different set of stories and underlying assumptions about women in general, as well as women in the military.

Secondarily, I think that growing up with the expectation of going into military service makes for a less, hmmm, abrupt and traumatic transition into doing this work. That is, even if young men in the States choose willingly to go into such service (as opposed to being drafted), that transition is a time of becoming something which is not the norm. So the act of joining may become (for a given individual) symbolic of bravery, or nobility, or of Being a Man, or of any of a host of things. Or not. Or that break with the rest of society (a setting off of oneself, of marking oneself as different) may be dealt with in ritualized ways, such as taking a lonely hike on one's own into the desert before one begins Basic Training in order to mark this time as different. Or getting a tattoo. Or not.

And, of course, in countries with compulsory service, there are doubtlessly such rituals, too. But I expected they are more standardized in the culture, that there are ways that have come up organically in order to mark that time in a more structured and, hmmm, better-acknowledged way. I suspect there are a lot of young men who are dealing with the stress of that setting apart of oneself on their own. And that, I suppose, may lead to extra and unresolved tensions when it is not the norm to be set apart in one's culture this way.

Plus, there is the issue of greater income disparity and over-representation of young men from particular backgrounds on the frontlines. I think this is a force at play, but not the major one. That's why I listed it last. However, it is a tension that will arise out of a non-compulsory-service culture that isn't there (at least, not effectively much) in a culture where everyone must serve.

Those are my guesses for a first pass. They make sense to me, but I'm not wedded to them. I'm also not interested enough in either exploring or defending them at this point to get into an extended discussion, but I'm okay with just setting them out there on the shelf to sit on their own. (Feel free to poke and prod as you wish, but they are on their own now. [Smile] )

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Edited to add: In case it isn't clear, I am not saying that individual male soldiers don't have personal responsibility. Nor am I saying that most of them do or will rape female colleagues. Far from it.

This was an attempt to list some of the cultural differences that might inform some of the different behaviors we may see among some of our male soldiers that may not be seen in male soldiers of some other countries.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I'm not sure if your belief that most of the front line soldiers come from lower income families is true.

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"Lower income?"

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Ahhh. Greater income disparity in the general society, not as the over-representation. I shouldn't have put those side-to-side without clarifying.

I was thinking more along the lines of disproportionate rural representation, not disproportionate economic representation. And not because rural people are more likely to rape (good grief), but just that the disparity of backgrounds could lead to increased levels of general tension.

I think SES disparity in a culture works as a rough proxy for indicating (causally or not) other disparities in a society, and that level of background tension is one that soldiers would bring in with them to their military training. When then faced with specific background disparities, it just makes for a mix of tensions that needs to be dealt with in some way. Most will deal with it [healthfully], I expect, but some will not. And, like I said, I don't think this is a primary force.

[ March 09, 2007, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

quote:

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Plus, there is the issue of greater income disparity and over-representation of young men from particular backgrounds on the frontlines.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I thought that's what you meant because it's a somewhat common accusation leveled at the military.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:

quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I thought that's what you meant because it's a somewhat common accusation leveled at the military.

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See edit above. Once I posted the quizzical look, I went back and reread what I had written, trying out different meanings. I think I spotted it immediately.

I think it's easy to (mis)read what I wrote, even with the clarification, as "poor (or rural) recruits are more likely to rape." That isn't at all what I meant. What I meant (and was trying to say carefully, because it is muddled with what other people have said as a matter of course) to say is that when you have people of different backgrounds and from a society with marked inequalities, it makes it harder for everyone to deal with the situation, regardless of where the individual falls on the spectrum.

Not impossible, just harder. Another tension that is tied to this culture moreso than many of the cultures we might be using for comparison in this thread.

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Oh, o.k.. I get it now. Thanks.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Sure. And you don't have to agree, of course, or even comment one way or the other. I just wanted what I said to be clear, and it certainly was not in the form it was originally written. I was sloppy (tired, and dealing with an infection, and kinda subpar mentally all around).
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Well, I didn't say anything one way or another about that bit because I'm not sure what I think about that idea. I'm thinking about it.
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

quote:

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Irami, like I said "rape is never excusable" but there are many factors that are going to make it more likely. just like murder is never excusable but if you put a bunch of very angry people in a small room with dangerous weapons it's a lot more likely to happen than in the general public.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
Well, I didn't say anything one way or another about that bit because I'm not sure what I think about that idea. I'm thinking about it.

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Understood.
 

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Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
 
I agree that this is the best solution, and is the end-all solution. I unfortunately don't think we're terribly near achieving that solution. Perhaps I'm being too much the pessemist, but I think American culture over the past generation or so may very well have transitioned towards rape and the like being more acceptable rather than less (or at least I seem to hear a lot more about today's youth lacking so much in terms of common courtesy and general behavioral skills than previously). I freely admit that I don't have actual data to back up these feelings, just anecdotal evidence, but I do feel that there is at least some legitimacy to it.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I'd say that topic is well worth including, TheGrimace.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TheGrimace:
I agree that this is the best solution, and is the end-all solution. I unfortunately don't think we're terribly near achieving that solution. Perhaps I'm being too much the pessemist, but I think American culture over the past generation or so may very well have transitioned towards rape and the like being more acceptable rather than less (or at least I seem to hear a lot more about today's youth lacking so much in terms of common courtesy and general behavioral skills than previously). I freely admit that I don't have actual data to back up these feelings, just anecdotal evidence, but I do feel that there is at least some legitimacy to it.

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I think the exact opposite, on the other hand.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
I think the exact opposite, on the other hand.

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quote:

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When do you think American society's peak was,Irami?

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Storm, who knows? 40s? 60s? 90s before Clinton started messing around? I list those decades because those were when people spoke up and voiced their true thoughts to the community, and not only that, those true thoughts were wise.

I think that in some way, the Founders precluded the possiblity for a peak as soon as they proclaimed that all men were equal, then went about subjugating women and minorities. The disconnect between thought and action has plagued the character of our nation ever since.

My point with the marriage analogy was that the difference between women saying "obey" and meaning it, and saying "obey" as purely a matter of ceremony is the difference between a rich tradition and an empty husk held over for appearance. The latter is an example of decadence.

"Don't ask, Don't tell" is a queer sort of institutionalized decadence. We say that we expect these soldiers to behave like gentlemen. If that's the case, then we should expect that they behave like gentlemen, no matter what is asked or told. The policy is a primary example of a society which lacks the moral character support its professed goals.

[ March 09, 2007, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
 

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Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
 
Hmm... That original article was indeed very disturbing. I'm not really sure what to say about it...

In Finland military service is obligatory for the men but not for the women. However, those women that want to can go to the army. This usually means that unlike the men who go to the army because they want to get it over and done with, the women go to the army to create a career, or because they think it'll be useful in whatever job they are pursuing to get in the future. Anyway, of all the women I know who've been in the military I've never heard anyone say they felt threatened while there. Certainly It never seemed any of the women I served with ever seemed to feel threatened, not even when sleeping in a tent full of guys, but then I'm a male, so I suppose they wouldn't have told me.

I suppose that the situation during wartime - such as in Iraq - might offer a bit different mental stress than the boy-scouting-with-guns stuff we did, though. Yet I've never heard of Finnish women being raped in the UN forces in Kosovo or Afghanistan either.

I tried to find some statistics about this but there really weren't any... A Google search for rape cases in the Finnish army gets absolutely no results. The best I could find was a story about a male and female soldier who began dating after the army, and the girl was now suing the guy for posting porn pictures of them to the internet.

Now I wonder what the situation is in the Swedish army... I mean there men and women shower in the same showers like in Starship Troopers.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Thanks for the perspective, Snail.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Not that anyone is necessarily ready to think about potential solutions (barring teaching folks to act with civility and decency, no matter the conditions), perhaps women and men should serve in their own individual units as opposed to together.

*just pondering*
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I think that's a very interesting idea.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Thanks, Stormy. Once in a while I have one. *grin*
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
It seems to me that you'd lose a bit of efficiency, though. If men and women can't serve together, that means you now have some units that can't go here, others that can't go there - you lose flexibility by introducing an extra constraint that doesn't have anything to do with what the enemy is doing.

Might not a better solution be to deal with this as racism was dealt with in its time? The military did manage to clean up its act on that, so it doesn't make sense to say that it's incapable of policing the attitude of its soldiers. Perhaps it just needs a good booting up the ass? (Granted, the sex drive is a bit more inbuilt than racism.) Or take a leaf from the WWII solution, and have army-run brothels, if the soliders are really that desperate.
 

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Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
 
Sure, any time period can be taken and idealized. I don't think this is a particularly productive nor healthy idea. We can look to the past for guidance, sure, but to grant them moral superiority may be glossing over their lackings. For instance, Britney Spears is a symbol of America, yet the silent but vast majority has nothing to do with her.

So, yes, I think the 50s were a lovely time with suits and smiles, and innocence. But I also think they were a time of fear, of paranoia, of a hidden fester which would grow to the explosion of expresion in the late 60s+70s. They also were the years in which Robert Lowell created his Life Studies...

[ March 11, 2007, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Phanto ]
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
I don't know that you'd lose efficiency, KOM. I'm not saying these units can't both serve in combat situations, but I think it makes sense to have female COs for female soldiers, and male COs for male soldiers.

There's an insiduous fear and threat that go with power and sexual assault that is less likely to happen if the CO is a woman (for women) IMHO.

And, of course, the need to confront the issue directly and change the cultural norm is critical, too . . . but not at the expense of more sexual violence.

Just thinkin . . .
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I think the first step would be to ask the women soldiers what they think. Not to come up with a final solution, but to hear from the frontlines. As it were.

I imagine that if this is a pretty widespread problem, then there must be several women affected who've been mulling through what they would change, if they could.

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Clarification: not that this contradicts anything said before, obviously.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I was struck by the paragraph about how if commanders don't tolerate mistreatment of women in their units, it doesn't happen. I thought about that, and was horrified to think that those commanders might be in the minority-- and that the majority of commanders must then (if that is true) tolerate and/or participate in such behavior. I find that almost inhuman behavior. It is almost unthinkable to me that you could be in command of other people and not discourage them from harming each other.

But then, I'm always amazed at people who suppress reportings of rapes in any situation, or treat the victims badly.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Absolutely, CT. And proposing solutions is a gazillion steps away from implementation -- of which some of the most important first ones is getting the information about problems and potential solutions directly from those affected.

But as an outsider looking in, I wonder if separate units might not help.

*smile*
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Or we could put women in charge of all the units and then perhaps mistreatment of women would be less tolerated

I'm not sure the article made enough of a case that this is truly a systematic problem, but I'm willing to believe that it might be. The comments made by some people essentially excusing the rapists' behavior because they don't like the idea of women in the military are particularly disturbing, since it indicates that this sort of opinion may well be more common than we might think. Additionally, people wronged by the military hierarchy are particularly vulnerable since they can't get out of the situation (that's desertion/AWOL) and they can't report it because they might be allowed to die during a dangerous mission.

Do we have a serious problem with criminals in the military? The article mentions lowered standards, but surely violent criminals wouldn't be allowed in? That seems the height of stupidity to give a criminal a gun and *encourage* him to shoot people.
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
It's only an anecdote, but one of my friends, a female sergeant who served in Iraq, had this to say:

quote:

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This article is pretty much on point but it's also a bit exaggerated. I guess I didn't feel like sexual harassment was a big issue because I was with a bunch of good guys and I had a good friend to go everywhere with. Unfortunately there were a lot of cases of rape and I did feel the need to be aware of it when I was at a different camp. I'm contradicting myself but I guess what I'm saying is that I wasn't too worried about sexual assault because the war was what really worried me.

The part in the article about dangerous jobs women had in Iraq is way true, and it does feel like the men are the ones taking the credit. In the army today they still only acknowledge the men fighting in the frontline and women aren't allowed there but they are. There were many times that guys in my unit looked down on the women too, but I understood because some of the women were acting like the "typical" women. There was one girl in my unit who would try to get out of the missions by going to sick call all the time. It wasn't fair to any of us, so I guess it was more like just her huh? Maybe it's just most guys who join the army are the alpha male type and that's how their personalities are. So I had to prove myself to the other guys in my unit they treated me like one of the guys sooner or later. It took a lot of extra work to do so but it's okay, it gave me tremendous gratification knowing that I can do so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shigosei:
Or we could put women in charge of all the units and then perhaps mistreatment of women would be less tolerated

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