Not happy that Marvel choose to kill off Old Cap. He's my favorite Marvel hero. But DC killed off Superman (my favorite comics hero), and maybe (probably) Marvel will bring Cap back eventually. After all, how many time was Cap's enemy the Red Skull supposedly killed, but managed to return. Also, you can't kill off an icon like this. He's still in Marvel's Ultimate universe, and he'll be around forever.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It was my understanding that he had been shot at close range multiple times in the torso, and that he was still possibly alive in a hospital somewhere.
Meh. The Civil War stuff was just a big letdown for me. Seems too much like a heavy-handed real-world political commentary to me, and a slanted one at that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No. He's been declared dead. Of course, my bet's on the idea that he was deliberately "killed" by SHIELD so that Tony wouldn't have to lock him up.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I'm sure it's a disney death. He'll be back to life any day...
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I highly doubt Steve Rogers will be resurrected. I also highly doubt that Captain America is a dead character.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I figure that's where the whole "Winter Soldier" arc was going. I know that, as time passes, references to WWII are getting harder to fit into the timeline; pretty soon, they'll have to do the same thing with Vietnam-based characters. But I also fully expect to see Rogers back within five years.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
two issues that came out on the same day...one were he was declared dead, the other where he is still alive. He will be back in two months...three at the most
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I haven't gotten around to the Civil War yet; I'm still living in the Ultimates universe.
Captain America lives!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Stick with the Ultimates stuff, Carrie.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, I dunno. Individual bits of Civil War were worthwhile, and I think the place they wound up has some potential. It's just that the execution of the main mini was seriously lacking.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
My brother and I decided that if he doesn't stay dead until at least 2010, then it didn't count and was a big waste of time.
I didn' read Civil War, but CapAm 25 was still a good issue. Captain America is a great character, but I would like to see some really good writing that deals with the fallout in a real way... for a long time. Maybe Marvel is trying to turn a new leaf concerning continuity. I don't really care about continuity in comic books - that will never be a focus, and it doesn't really have to be, either. But this could get interesting!
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
I expect the whole arc to be erased by one godlike character with the power to do that kind of stuff.
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
So does all this cancel out the Earth X Series ?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
So for the next year, we're going to see four new people showing up claiming to be Captain America:
One will be a kid, cloned from both Captain America and the Red Skull.
One will be a tech-savvy construction worker, who creates a version of Captain America's uniform for himself, because the world needs Captain America
One will be a psycho cyborg whose origin is copied shamelessly from a well known DC super-team
One will be a robot intelligence who has the real Steve Rogers on ice (no pun intended) somewhere where he can heal and regain his strength.
At least, that's my guess.
[ March 09, 2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Lisa ]
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
God, of course he's coming back.
Heck, I'm sure even the characters themselves have already forgotten how many times they've died already.
It's all a marketing ploy, don't be fooled!
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
Of course it's marketing, but it could also make a great story!
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Well, this is kind of awkward for me...BOO!
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Mark Millar turned Cap into a big crybaby, anyway.
I say keep him dead until The Avengers movie comes out.
Post-Civil War Marvel comics have been a mixed bag. The revamped Thunderbolts is sort of interesting, as are the new sub-plots in She-Hulk.
But The Mighty Avengers was almost entirely Bendis writing a puff piece about his New Avengers stories, what with Carol raving about how cool and great Luke Cage's team is, and how they X-Treme RebelZ New Avengers are still just totally the best team...
It was almost a relief when Ultrette turned up.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I just can't stand the guy running the Civil War storyline.
And killing Captain America, with what he represents to me, feels like someone burning not one, but every American flag ever made.
And holding a copyright so no more can be made.
I'm angry.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I got burnt out on Civil War to be honest. Something about the heavy political commentary in it and the whole Marvel claiming both sides were portrayed equally when they clearly weren't. It just wasn't as cool or fun as it could be.
As far as Captain America being dead, at most it'll be a few years. I mean the Captain America movie (which is still in early, early planning stages) is supposed to be out around 2010 or so. I doubt it'll even be that long. I mean there are so many explanations (a fake Steve Rogers (like the fakes that Nick Fury used), a super-powered being bringing him back to life, Bucky becoming Cap for a time before the real Cap comes back somehow, etc.). There's just a lot that can be done.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I thought they alluded to the Punisher becoming the next Captain America with the line, "Same soldier, different war." That's my guess anyway.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: I thought they alluded to the Punisher becoming the next Captain America with the line, "Same soldier, different war." That's my guess anyway.
That kind of decision leads to me storming the Marvel office with torches and pitchforks.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Oh, man! That'll be even kewler than when they replaced the Punisher with a hot chick in the 90s, then turned him into an angel! Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I can just see it now: "Punisher: Angel of Death" coming soon to a comic store near you. *sigh* Sometimes I miss the status quo in comics. Sure it gets boring at times, but at least it doesn't irritate me with its lame attempts to increase sales for a brief period.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Spoiler warnings???
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Gaal, Marvel Comics spoiled this. The day the comic came out, they went to ALL the major media outlets and TRUMPETED it.
So, no. No spoiler warnings, the company that owns the character WANTED it spoiled. Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Oh. Well that kind of ruins the fun of reading it in the comic. So what's going to happen to the New Avengers with Cap out? And what happened to them when Iron Man and Captain America were fighting in the Civil War thing? Were the New Avengers still together?
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
The most ironically ridiculous commentary on the death has to be by Colbert.
He tried to make a joke of how Cap died because Cap trying to protect free speech and privacy.
Yet the "free speech and privacy" in this case was the dubious "right" of masked vigilantes to beat other people up because they're "bad guys", and suffer no consequences because nobody knows who they are.
which just shows how unrealistic "realistic" super-hero comics are. Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
During the Civil War, the New Avengers were of course split. The comic itself revolved around a different character each issue over the course of the Civil War, showing what was happening to them. Now after the Civil War, we've got a split. We've still got the New Avengers (with a similar line-up to the old although with the obvious change of no Cap and no Iron Man), and now we've got the Mighty Avengers led by Iron Man. So yeah, we're back to two Avengers teams, although I hear their stories will intersect within a few months.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Yet the "free speech and privacy" in this case was the dubious "right" of masked vigilantes to beat other people up because they're "bad guys", and suffer no consequences because nobody knows who they are.
I agree, actually. And yet they had to turn Tony Stark into a duplicitous, Orwellian bastard to present him as the bad guy. It was totally unnecessary, and competely at odds with the heroic origins of Stark.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Totally agree, Rakeesh. I was actually on Tony's side in regards to the original issue (the registration act itself), but then they made Tony crazy and evil. I mean look at what lengths he went to. I loved Tony as a character, and Civil War just made me want to hate him.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
Frank Castle as the next Captain America? I don't know what to say... he's not exactly known for not-killing bad guys or for upholding the American justice system...
Anyway, I'm sticking to the Ultimate Universe, and Supreme Power. If Marvel starts to release anything else that's good, please let me know.
Unrelated: Why is The Juggernaut in Excalibur and why does he suck?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
New Excalibur #1 is actually online-- check out the digital comics page on marvel.com.
If you can abide their crappy reader, that is.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
If I were thinking about starting to read one superhero series from Marvel, which one is a good one to pick up now? Preferably one that isn't too high on the issue number so I can pick up the back issues without too much of a hassle.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Depends on what you like. I'm really liking Moon Knight right now, as it's dark, gritty, and all sorts of crazy. Plus it's only up to seven issues now, I think. It's definitely not for everyone though.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I'm not sure what I like when it comes to comic books. I've never really read alot of comics. I read the whole first volume of Runaways, thanks to a recommendation that I think I got here at Hatrack, and loved it. I read Avengers Disassembled and the first 5 or 6 issues of New Avengers but I wasn't really crazy about it, especially not Disassembled, and a few trade paperbacks I bought, some I enjoyed some I didn't. I'm thinking of trying an individual superhero series. How is the Iron Man one? Or is there a good Doctor Strange series? I used to like him.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I don't know how Iron Man will be in the new future (as I think a new team is taking over? or maybe they already did?). I did like the recent Extremis arc in Iron Man as well as the one that followed it (about Iron Man supposedly killing people). Even the Iron Man Civil War issues were good; they were the few that didn't make him out to be an insane jerk. Post-Civil War though, I don't know what to expect.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:If I were thinking about starting to read one superhero series from Marvel, which one is a good one to pick up now?
If you're familiar with the universe, X-Factor is currently pretty groovy.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I will agree; X-Factor is currently pretty good (I liked the issue a few months back where each team member talked to a psychologist). Also Astonishing X-Men (written by Joss Whedon) is pretty good, and it's not too long either (issue 20 came out last month).
Posted by Rose the ____ (Member # 7791) on :
The editor for CW, Tom Brooveport, or however his name is spelled, indicated recently that he let the writers of individual comics determine, in their comics, which side was right, which side was wrong, and why. Unfortunately, that was essentially a lazy move - so while in Iron Man, we get to see that Tony's really the hero of both worlds, and in Mighty Avengers, he's trying to help even his unregistered friends else the shadowy higher-ups'll screw every superhero over - In Strazyinski's books, we see him as some scheming sneering villian behind an Iron Mask, and in Frontline we see him as a war profitter without merit or compunction, and essentially a murderer in the eyes of many of the fans, and the title characters of Frontline. Actually there's still an out in that mess for Stark, and it's possible he wasn't the villian half the Marvel writers are trying to paint him into being, but it won't be easy to get him out of the mess they've put him in.
As for Rogers, they've got the one shots coming soon where he's dead, they've got hints that he's in a secret facility recovering under Tony's supervision, and a final conversation between Mr. Stark and Mr. Rogers. My guess is Tony'll try to download/upload? his consciousness and save it on disk - which is what Tony does w/ his own conciousness in a recent Iron Man mini, Hypervelocity. Steve Rogers: Machine Man! or Steve Rogers, clone of Steve Rogers! they'll get it done, somehow. and Brubaker planned killing him from the first, so he'll know how, when and why to bring'im back.
whoo! lot to say about the whole mess.
pfresh85, I'd say this: Expect them to make Mr. Stark look more like OSC every day (isn't that neat how they've done that the past few years, given him the OSC hairdo?) expect him to be freaked out by being written out of existence/replaced by the really hot female Ultron in issue 1 of Mighty Avengers, And expect them to explain that it wasn't/isn't Tony pulling the strings of the Thunderbolts. they're an American superteam of psychopathic murderers, not a UN controlled one. SHIELD under Stark and America should have a falling out - a UN peacekeeping entity, no matter how many Americans it has on the payroll, should be devoted to the World's interests. I'd mention more, but Battlestar's on soon, so forget it. 's too bad that we've lost so many heroes this week - Kara Thrace, Black Adam's new family, Steve Rogers :-(. ah well.
Oh, and Hulk should probably be important this year, considering Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, and their crew tried to murder him by sticking him in that ship and setting it's warp core to explode. Oh, and they murdered his new nation, and probably killed his totally hot wife and unborn child. so - yeah. Stark's stress from worldly issues and the loss of his buddy Steve'll mean diddly when Hulk doth Smash.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Runaways
She-Hulk
Young Avengers
Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane
Marvel Adventures: The Avengers Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Oh yes, I am looking forward to World War Hulk. Hulk will smash the puny Illuminati.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
I recommend the series Supreme Power (recently turned into Squadron Supreme and moved to Marvel Knights), along with the related 6 issue mini-series's tied to it, Hyperion and Dr. Spectrum.
With the 6 issue mini-series's, about 34 comics to date. It's very self contained, and has nothing to do with the rest of the marvel universe. The original title is in Marvel Max, so it has mature content.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
I adore Runaways. That and BPRD are my two favorite comic series out right now.
Ha, I was having a conversation about Spider-man Loves Mary Jane with a customer (it is a guilty pleasure for both of us), and he described as "Muppet Babies, but as teenagers." Apt.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
By the way, Moon Knight #1 is also on Marvel's digital comic list.
It's a good read.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: So for the next year, we're going to see four new people showing up claiming to be Captain America:
One will be a kid, cloned from both Captain America and the Red Skull.
One will be a tech-savvy construction worker, who creates a version of Captain America's uniform for himself, because the world needs Captain America
One will be a psycho cyborg whose origin is copied shamelessly from a well known DC super-team
One will be a robot intelligence who has the real Steve Rogers on ice (no pun intended) somewhere where he can heal and regain his strength.
At least, that's my guess.
And clearly, I'm not the only person who thinks like this. Link. Scary, isn't it?
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Thanks for that link, Lisa. I got a giggle out of the comic, but then I grew up with comics during the Reign of the Supermen.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Wow. I can't even imagine what that must have been like. I got hooked by Superman 296.
(Edit: not 196; 296. I'm not that old)
[ March 12, 2007, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Lisa ]
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Yeah. I hadn't read many comics (I mean I was only 8 or so) prior to the Death of Superman. I read that, then went on collecting through Funeral for a Friend, Reign of the Supermen, then into Superman's return. I dropped it shortly after that and started reading other comics instead. It's only been in the last year or two that I've come back to reading Superman again.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: Also Astonishing X-Men (written by Joss Whedon) is pretty good, and it's not too long either (issue 20 came out last month).
And you can get trades through 16 or so.
Plus, it's the best use of Kitty Pryde ever - best characterization, best use of her powers, best look into ... can't tell you that because of spoilers. It's no surprise that Joss writes a female hero well (at least from this boy's perspective ), but it's still fun to read. He had one too many threads to tie together, so it got kind of muddled around 18-19, but it's still my favorite run of the X-Men possibly barring classic Chris Claremont.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Also a pretty interesting Lockheed. Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
First comic I read was Superman 222. It was a giant sized special with a 3 part imaginary story of Superman's twin sons. I was 8 years old.
And then I was over at my cousin's house, and she had some copies of Adventure with Supergirl starring. I got totally hooked, psychologically, at least. But it wasn't until I was in junior high and saw a cover with Clark Kent walking away from Superman and saying "I Quit" that I started getting the things every month. Every week, I mean. It's seriously an addiction.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
One idea spun out of "Civil War"...The Initiative actually has a lot of potential. Each state has it's very own official super-hero team!
Texas, for instance, has The Rangers...apparently because the Lame Stereotypes were already protecting Ohio.
And Utah has "that team of Mormon heroes".
(Ah, the wit and creativity of Mark Millar.)
I'm hoping Dan Slott's upcoming Avengers: The Initiative comic doesn't drop the ball like Millar and Bendis have.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: Also a pretty interesting Lockheed.
Yes, indeed. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Don't knock the heroic potential of a team of Mormon superheroes in Quesada's capable hands:
"My stars, Uberhepizechariadah, they're shooting at us!" "Never fear, Mega-Missy! Our magic underwear shall surely protect us from all harm!"
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I loved the first arc of Astonishing, but subsequent arcs have been rather uneven.
Did anyone -not- see the "twists" of the Danger and Hellfire Club stories coming from miles away?
Still, his Kitty is awesome, and I'm liking "Armor" more and more. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I always see Joss's twists* coming, and that never takes the fun out of it for me.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
It does for me when it's obviously being written for the inevitable trade-paperback.
The Hellfire Club story really has only two issue's worth of actual content, but was spread much thinner .
A shame, as the stuff with Scott and Emma was really, really good.
The stuff that made it incredibly obvious that this was a hoax of some kind...wasn't.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I always see Joss's twists* coming, and that never takes the fun out of it for me.
Did you see the events in Serenity having to do with Wash* coming?
*Ambiguously phrased to avoid spoilers, although at this point if you haven't seen Serenity there may be something wrong with you.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: One idea spun out of "Civil War"...The Initiative actually has a lot of potential. Each state has it's very own official super-hero team!
And the team in Sunnydale can deal with demons and vampires.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Don't knock the heroic potential of a team of Mormon superheroes in Quesada's capable hands:
"My stars, Uberhepizechariadah, they're shooting at us!" "Never fear, Mega-Missy! Our magic underwear shall surely protect us from all harm!"
Like that, only less tasteful and drawn by Rob Liefeld. Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Hawaii will be protected by the Coconut Commandos.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Tom, you seriously need to educate yourself on what Mormon heroes would look like. The Book of Mormon has a bunch of inspirational figures in it that would fit with super heroes.
I give you: The Sons Of Helaman!
Teancum: Capable of scaling walls, seeing in the dark, and hunting out his foe's weak spot. In battle, he wields an energy spear. Is ambidextrous. His temper gets him into trouble, though...
Captain Moroni: Passionately patriotic, even to a fault. Otherwise, is trustworthy, loyal, dedicated...he's not the best fighter, but he IS a great leader.
Alma: Able to astrally project himself when he enters a trance state. He has a dark, sordid past that he's always trying to get over.
Ammon: The lone wolf, bucking against authority. Nontheless, he is the greatest warrior on the team. His preferred weapon is the Yeung-Smythe Warsling, a pistol designed by Nephi Yeung; additionally, he has his playfully named katana, 'Cricket.'
Nephi: The builder. He can make anything from anything.
MOM: The coordinating central computer.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
If you aren't Mormon you probably won't even get the above post.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
The team I really feel bad for is the one stuck in California. Cause you know the Legislature will immediately form a committee to study the environmental impact of human flight. Plus, fire based heroes would be banned in wildfire season. It'd be a rough state to work.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
You have to pity poor little Rhode Island. They were turned down by NFL SuperPro -and- the Power Pachyderms.
Ouch. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
meh. Who needs wimpy little superheroes when ya got Rhode Island Red.
[ March 13, 2007, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
The following image is definitely spoiler filled, so if you don't want to be spoiled don't look.
Blah is my opinion. Blah.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Oh, geeze. What are they thinking?!
My favorite part about the Civil War storyline is Namor predicting that Banner will come back and kill everyone one of the remaining members of the Illuminati. Man, I nearly hope he does.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I almost wonder if this is as bad an idea as the electric Superman and his further split into Superman Blue and Superman Red. *shakes head* Such bad ideas.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: The most ironically ridiculous commentary on the death has to be by Colbert.
He tried to make a joke of how Cap died because Cap trying to protect free speech and privacy.
Yet the "free speech and privacy" in this case was the dubious "right" of masked vigilantes to beat other people up because they're "bad guys", and suffer no consequences because nobody knows who they are.
which just shows how unrealistic "realistic" super-hero comics are.
Maybe it's even more ironic then that last night on the show, Colbert revealed that Marvel sent him a letter and enclosed with it was Captain America's shield. It looked real too, it was all dinged up and it was actual metal, you could tell. And usually when he does stuff like that he's serious and not faking it.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
The "real" Captain America Shield...dinged up?!?
So much for being indestructible.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Spam email I rec'd a few days after the issue came out was titled "Captain America: Dead, Shmead"
I didn't open it, of course, but it was one of the few times I've actually been amused by spam.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Noem, Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Don't knock the heroic potential of a team of Mormon superheroes in Quesada's capable hands:
"My stars, Uberhepizechariadah, they're shooting at us!" "Never fear, Mega-Missy! Our magic underwear shall surely protect us from all harm!"
This amused me to no end, because I could totally see the illustrations: Blonde-haired, blue-eyed athletic male approximately 5'11" tall standing with feet shoulder-width apart and toes turned out slightly. With his fists jauntily but firmly at his waist he sets his jaw in unabashed amusement at his evil enemies while his thoroughly modest white underwear (with the t-shirt tucked in, thank you) glows with a holy radiance.
Oh, and don't forget the crew cut.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Okay, for those (like me) who were a little disappointed with some of the Civil War stuff, read The Confession. It came out yesterday. It gives you some idea of Stark's reasoning, as well as what Captain America was thinking while he was in his little jail cell. It's pretty good.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Too little, too late for me. Despite his claims otherwise, Millar did his best to make Tony and the other pro-reg heroes EVIL.
Defilers of dead friend's bodies. Profiteers. Assassins. Secret combinations. Hypocrites. Liars. Thieves.
And Bendis seemed completely unaware that Cap was ranting at Tony for doing things Cap himself has done, just by being a super-hero of such a long, varied career.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Oh, I agree. It doesn't make up for the bad of Civil War. It was still one of the better Civil War issues though.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
on a side note i picked up the first two trades of Astonishing and loved it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Too little, too late for me. Despite his claims otherwise, Millar did his best to make Tony and the other pro-reg heroes EVIL.
Defilers of dead friend's bodies. Profiteers. Assassins. Secret combinations. Hypocrites. Liars. Thieves.
I completely agree. But I wasn't aware that Millar claimed he didn't set up to make pro-reg-ers evil. Is he actually claiming he didn't? He's either full of it, or so wildly biased he just can't see it.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
He (and others at Marvel, including Quesada) have said that both sides were presented fairly and equally, that no side was being portrayed as the bad guy. When people kept bringing up evidence to the contrary, their explanation was something like "you only see what you want to see" and that people were automatically on Cap's side and that's why they saw Tony and Co. as evil.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, they're full of crap I don't think Captain America's side was right, but that doesn't mean I can't think they turned Stark into an evil SOB.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Oh, totally. I was on Iron Man's side at the beginning. Then they just made him do so many bad things (Clor, the new Thunderbolts, the prison in the Negative Zone). By the time Goliath had died, I felt like I couldn't support either side.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Millar and Quesada both claim that they always portrayed Iron Man's side as being just as good and right as Cap's, and that fans misunderstood because we jumped to conclusions.
I'm very much looking forward to Hulk smashing the puny Iluminati. This preview really whet my appetite.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Actually, Mark Millar has a history of making statements that call into question his ability to discern reality.
He claimed not too long ago that Alan Moore's controversial Lost Girls graphic novel did -not- feature underage classic children's fantasy characters in graphically adult situations. Even though Alan Moore's trumpeted just the opposite from the start of the project years ago.
And he's always claimed that The Ultimates is a comic mainly read and enjoyed by an audience of "bright 7-12 year olds". Right. Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Wait, he said that about Lost Girls, despite the fact that it was hyped as a pornographic comic with a story?
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
He didn't claim it wasn't pornography, but he did try to claim that there was no portrayal of underage sex in the book.
Moore himself never made such a claim, instead invoking the "you can only object to such portrayals if you can't tell the difference between fiction and reality." defense.
I have no intention of ever reading Lost Girls, and statements like Moore's won't change my mind...but at least he's more honest than Millar.
[ March 17, 2007, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Puffy Treat ]
Posted by Rose the ____ (Member # 7791) on :
ok, perhaps I read too casually, but I thought that the Thunderbolts weren't under SHIELD jurisdiction. We're led to assume that Tony chose the Thunderbolt members, and we're led to assume that Tony's the shadowy figure that controls Osborn's nanobots - we're led to assume these things, but we don't have the panels that show him actually doing these things. the closest we've got is the accusation by the newsie punks in FrontLine and the scene where Stark opens that door talking about the new team to bring in the superheroes and we see those crazy-psycho-villians.
I think time will prove that Tony didn't really make every horrible decision that we attribute to him, that he wasn't/isn't the villian so many writers alluded to him being. Peter Parker will damn well owe him an apology. I hope once Strazyinski's off the book they find a way for him to give it up.
I think the Confession explained it better - Tony made compromises. horrible ones, but compromises meant for the greater good for everyone, for the future. He realizes, at the end of the first story, that it wasn't worth it.
But he's wrong. given the events, Stark had no options. He did what he could to secure the best future he and Richards could see. While Rogers might have just died for his principles, and Stark had to sell his - Tony Stark's still around to change the world for the better. Stark's still around to see that the Marvel Universe doesn't have a Sentinel-powered genocide of all post-humans and mask-wearers. Stark's around to work to get the Marvel public to actually be fond of, and care about, their post-human, but still very human, protectors. Oh, and he's running SHIELD, so he has to fight the war on international naughtiness of all different sorts.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Peter Parker will damn well owe him an apology.
I'm afraid not. He lied, tricked, and eventually attempt to force Peter's cooperation through oblique threats against his family. He also stole massive amounts of detailed biometric data from Peter, and was doing this well before he ever had a hint of doubt in him.
Tony Stark isn't a hero anymore, he's a pragmatic betrayer of friends and builder of gulags.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
"Underage classic children's fantasy characters in graphically adult situations" is exactly what "Lost Girls" is about, start to finish. Did Millar ever read it?
Moore has said repeatedly that he set out to write pornography and he succeeded marvelously. Why try to take that away from him?
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I still don't get the whole Spiderman subplot. There were plenty of jokes made about how it didn't matter if Spidey revealed himself, everyone already knew who he was.
Yet the minute he goes public, we've got villains at his house looking for his family. Everyone already knew they could get to Spidey through Parker and therefore his family, but the minute we know it's the same guy, now his family isn't safe? Wha?
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Maybe villains have some morals? I mean maybe they see a difference between "I can get at Spider-Man by attacking this innocent guy Parker and his family" and "I can get at Spider-Man, who is Parker, by attacking his family." I don't know; it doesn't make much sense to me. The way it's played out so far though makes it seem like the people taking advantage of Peter revealing his identity are the ones who either a) didn't know already or b) hadn't (or had rarely) use the Parker and his family attack to get at Spidey. I mean I don't remember Kingpin harassing Aunt May or Mary Jane (although I could be mistaken); now that he knows they are related to Peter he hires a sniper to try and take out him and (if not him) his loved ones. *shrugs* I could be wrong though.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
I'm really disappointed by the description of the volume 4 New Warriors series.
Instead of the older members still with the living trying to redeem the team name, it'll be a band of X-Treme RebelZ heroes even -more- rebellious than the New Avengers.
While all super-hero code names are silly...yeesh. "Renasense"?!?
Plus, for a Marvel Universe citizen, calling yourself the New Warriors would be like calling yourself the Timothy McVeigh Squad.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I really liked the New Warriors of the Nicieza days... it really went downhill after the second Sphinx storyline (where the team expanded the roster with Powerpax, Bandit, Dagger, and :shudder: Hindsight Lad).
Speedball and Nova were my favorite characters; I jumped on board the comic too late to love Silouhuette, but she had some extremely cool powers.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Wait-- Speedball gets transformed into Penance?
That's just...completely wrong.
From Wikipedia:
quote:After the events of Stamford, Baldwin believed his powers to be burned out. However, they still exist, but now only manifest when he feels pain. While his powers are still kinetically based, they no longer appear to manifest as a "bubble field." Rather, his powers seem far more explosive in nature. In order to stimulate his powers, his Penance suit constantly rakes his flesh.
It's just completely immoral to change Robbie Baldwin from a wisenheimer to...this.
I hope Generation X's Penance comes and shreds Quesada into quesada-dillas in the night for this.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Oh, I -loved- New Warriors volume one!
I agree that it went downhill after the line-up expansion...I think because originally the plan was to spin off the founding members into a new comic called simply Warriors, and have the new members become the...er..New New Warriors.
Hindsight Lad turned out to be a traitorous jerk during Civil War.
Nova's doing fairly well these days, but Speedball is now a depressed masochist named "Penance". Ick.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Quesada always hated Speedball. I think he's behind the change.
The official reason given for Speedball=Penance is that Marvel already had a happy-go-lucky hero (Spider-Man) and apparently they're only allowed to have one.
(When was the last time Spider-Man was truly happy-go-lucky? The 1970s?)
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I'm really eager to see how Nova reacts to all the non-sense on Earth. I mean he knew about the civil war and all (as he mentions it in Annihilation), but he doesn't know the details. How's he going to react when he finds out some of his old teammates were the initial cause? I also wonder what the dialogue between Nova and Penance will be like.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
He'll probably be puzzled at how the Warriors suddenly got so utterly stupid. Even in their "reality TV" incarnation they were only rarely so careless.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The closest Spider-Man ever gets to "happy-go-lucky" is when he's acting happy-go-lucky. It's a trope with him now that when he is really HGL, a jumbo jet of anvils is heading his way.
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I really hope Hulk comes back and kills, at least, Stark. Or else gives him a beating in the style of Ultimate Hulk versus the Ultimates, brought down by an inner ear infection.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
More proof that Millar & Quesada are full of baloney:
I was just reminded that they eventually established Nitro's power levels were vastly amplified by one of the companies that most benefited financially from the registration act...long before the Warriors tried to take him in.
So, the pro-reg side was portrayed almost completely as an innately evil, greedy, bloodthirsty conspiracy.
The anti-reg side, at worst, are portrayed as not looking before they leap.
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