The South frightens me. I have a hard time understanding how part of the country can be so backward and behind the rest. Some people in the south still think they should have won the War of Northern Aggression so they wouldn't have all these black folk messing up their towns.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Must...control...fist...of...death...
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Do southerners get a Fist of Death free with every pickup truck? Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Do yankees get a lame Southerner joke free with every mocha latte?
It's not that simple, MightCow. While there are certainly racists aplenty in the South who think that way about the Civil War, lots of us have more complicated feelings.
I and other Southerners feel shame about the South's history of slavery while resenting the brutality of the Union Army during the war and during Reconstruction. My home town, Atlanta, was burned to the ground. That's not something you think of lightly. By the way, the North only gave up slavery gradually, stste by state, year by year, well into the 19th century. It's not like the pre-Civil War North was a paragon of virtue on the slavery issue.
As for why the South is "so backward and behind the rest [of the US]", there are plenty of racists in the North who rant about urban blacks as well.
Economically, there was a conscious effort by Northern capitalists and politicians to keep the South marginalized and unindustrialized decades after Reconstruction, on into the 20th century--in particular the Northern Railroad Conspiracy, which fixed freight prices unfairly and made it impossible for Southern factories to compete, even 75 years (approx.) AFTER Reconstruction ended.
quote:Discriminatory freight rates, the Justice [Douglas said in the SC's opinion] continued, may cause a blight no less serious than noxious gases in that they may arrest[p.760]the development of a State and put it at a competitive disadvantage. “Georgia as a representative of the public is complaining of [b]a wrong which, if proven, limits the opportunities of her people, shackles her industries, retards her development, and relegates her to an inferior economic position among her sister States. These are matters of grave public concern"[...] 324 U.S. 439 STATE OF GEORGIA v. PENNSYLVANIA R. CO. et al. No. 11 , Original. Argued and Submitted on Rules and Returns Jan. 2, 1945. Decided March 26, 1945. http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art3frag45_user.html http://supreme.justia.com/us/324/439/
Finally, the North is called the Rust Belt for a reason--ie massive and continued migrations SOUTH.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I thought it was called the Rust Belt because what had once been a string of industries based on the production of and use of steel have all moved overseas, and giant factories are literally sitting around rusting.
I think once domestic manufacturing sorts itself out, you might see that migration level off, and maybe even reverse a little bit. A lot of the north has been retooling for the last 10 years (some more some less), and once (if they manage it) they get their new economies humming, there will be more jobs and thus I think you'll see a flight back to the north, especially as the gulf states become too expensive to live in for people looking for work.
I don't think those migrations south have anything to do with the south being a great place to live or being "right" about something in some way or form. I think it's because there are jobs down there, or at least the hope of jobs, and the world market is crushing a bit of the traditional northern manufacturing base. While they figure out what to do, it's a sad time to be a blue collar worker in the north.
Frankly, I don't think much about the south, because I don't view the south as some sort of separate state within a state I guess the way some people do. There's been hushed talk the last 100 years or so of the UP in Michigan seceding from us and being their own state with bits of Wisconsin thrown in. I don't see it happening, and not just because we give them a lot more money than they give us (which seems to be the reverse of Virginia).
I do however think areas should have the right to self determination to a degree, but I don't ever see Virginia's state legislature letting NoVa break away. At the very least, it'd have to be pretty embaressing to have ANOTHER state break away because they didn't like you .
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
But then we could have a state named Nova. That would be a cool name for a state.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
As I've written before here on Hatrack, Phase IV of Dubya's secret plan is for Texas to divide into 5 states, as the bill of Annexation for Texas allows. This would quintuple Texas' senators from 2 to 10, allowing them to dominate the Senate.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Representative Tyrone Brooks, Democrat from Atlanta...said it's discouraging to see the Confederate month proposal moving through the legislative process..."Georgia needs to recognize and apologize and atone for its part in the slave trade, as Virginia has done..."
House Speaker Glenn Richardson, Republican from Hiram, said...he's "not sure what we ought to be apologizing for." Senate Majority Leader Tommie Williams, Republican from Lyons, agreed, saying "people shouldn't be held responsible for the sins of their fathers." [while advocating that folks should be strongly encouraged to celebrate&honor those sins]
[ March 16, 2007, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I love Virginia-- all of it.
quote:House Speaker Glenn Richardson, Republican from Hiram, said...he's "not sure what we ought to be apologizing for." Senate Majority Leader Tommie Williams, Republican from Lyons, agreed, saying "people shouldn't be held responsible for the sins of their fathers." [apparently advocating that Georgians should be strongly encouraged to celebrate those sins instead]
I don't see that as apparent at all, aspectre. Can you explain your position more clearly?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:As I've written before here on Hatrack, Phase IV of Dubya's secret plan is for Texas to divide into 5 states, as the bill of Annexation for Texas allows.
It's not something Texas can do - it would require Congressional action plus Texas's consent.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
If Illinois hasn't seceded from Chicago yet, I don't think we have to worry about Virginia splitting in two. The differences between VA and NoVA can't be any greater than those between Chicago and IL.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Re: racism in the South vs. racism in the North (or Midwest, in my case): I've lived in Georgia, and I've lived in Indiana. From what I've seen, there's much less racial diversity in the midwest, and consequentially, much more casual racism.
Also, before you start declaring an entire part of the country "backward and behind the rest," bear in mind that a) the south is actually growing and prospering much faster than much of the rest of the country, and b) many hatrackers live or are from the south. Try to control your stereotypes a bit better.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I've witnessed less casual racism from strangers visiting Atlanta than I have visiting Phoenix, for what that's worth (probably not much.)
In any case, I think racism has a lot more to do with community resources and dynamics, average age of the population, and how homogenous or otherwise the community is than where that community is located.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
There's a fairly interesting article on Orlando in this month's National Geographic.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, let's look at the likelihood of the two possiblities stemming from Mighty Cow's remark:
1) An entire quarter of the country and millions of people are ignorant and backwards despite being Americans and as plugged into the general culture as everyone else.
2) Mighty Cow, one person, is speaking from ignorance.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have to say, I can't believe some of the snobbery I've encountered here in DC. When something is to be characterized as dumb or stupid, the general shortcut is to describe them as coming from the midwest. Iowa, in particular. It's very off-putting. I can't believe how narrow and provincial people can be. (You know I'm talking about the people who use that as a shortcut, right?)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I just read the article - I don't like the tone of it. Why are the quotes from Central Virginians only including the details that sound like it came off of HeeHaw? It's like quoting someone from DC on law enforcement and mentioning they are cooking chitlins for their family of four generations of only females.
quote:"How come they have the bad accents and we talk fine?" asked Casey Childress, a waitress at the Pigs R Us Bar-B-Que in Collinsville, a small town near Martinsville and the North Carolina border.
Because no one in Northern Virginia works as a waitress or eats ethnic food.
quote:Paige Grainger, a fundraiser for nonprofit groups, was born in Alexandria. Her mother was from Charlottesville. But, she explained to a group of working-mother friends gathered for a glass of red wine last week, she doesn't think of herself as a Virginian.
Right. Because no one in central Virginia either works or drinks wine.
And she struggles??!?! Oh, please. It's like hearing some white kid talk about how shameful it is be associated with the other black students. If that seems wrong and her quote doesn't, then you've bought into the same prejudice she is exhibiting.
Having a blue-colored prejudice doesn't make someone sophisticated - it makes them backwards in a different way. I'm not impressed with narrow-minded people.
Based on the descriptions of the those quoted, I think it's a trumped up story. Considering how hard the writer labors to highlight the differences, I think he's stoking the divide more than reporting on it. I know there are differences, but it's no more than the differences between Austin and Dallas. It's not a very good article. A real reporter doesn't have to photoshop a story in order to make it true.
[ March 16, 2007, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I thought Mighty Cow was being sarcastic.
:shrug:
I'm going with that explanation.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: I love Virginia-- all of it.
Scott, I'm with you there. I'm not from Virginia, but my grandparents lived there when I was a child and I have always loved it. They were in Centreville, which is now part of Metro DC but was really just a small town back then. I lived in Northern VA for 12 years, and will probably end up back in some part of the state someday.
I grew up in NY and have lived in Virginia, Delaware, Georgia and Utah, and have traveled throughout the US, but Virginia is where my heart is.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Eddie From Ohio does a great song about Virginia-- called 'Old Dominion.'
Here's the chorus:
quote:when you're talking home you mean the old dominion just southeast of heaven to the surf and the hills she's the best of thirteen sisters and thirty seven more sweet sweet virginia always keeps an open door
Which I heartily agree with.
I'm not a native Virginian; I've been here since 1990. I LIKE the juxtaposition of the Northern and Southern parts of the state (I live in Fredericksburg, just south of the Rappahannock). I like being able to go north to get good shopping and culture and ethnic food and my job; I like going south and west for the beaches, the mountains, the woods, the amusement parks, and the barbecue.
Mmmm...barbecue.
My family, on both sides, are long-time Virginians; my dad's family has been in this area since the Revolutionary War, my mom's since shortly after the Civil War. They complain about Yankees still; I don't, really. Unless those Yankees get all kinds of uppity about how they don't like Virginia (and they've never been south of Dumfries). Then, I don't have much use for them.
In doing an anthropology paper, I came across some research that indicated that Northern Virginia really isn't part of the south; it's lost its "southerness." I agree, but don't really mind it so much. There's another culture there-- not a better one. Just different.
I like having options.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Many states are like this. Maryland's eastern shore doesn't want any part of the Baltimore/Annapolis/DC mega city. The eastern shore folk call them "chicken neckers", those west of the Bay call them rednecks.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Scott, do you know any of my LDS Frederickburg friends: Jilleen Harter, Tom John, Frank and Amy Weber, or Gary and Beth Austin?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Virginia is the coolest state!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Jilleen Harter...the name's familiar, but no, alas; I don't know any of those folks.
I actually don't live in Fredericksburg city; I'm in the suburbs outside of it, in Spotsylvania county.
Do you know what ward they're in? (There are 9 or so wards in the Fredericksburg stake)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, were you being sarcastic, MightyCow?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:I thought it was called the Rust Belt because what had once been a string of industries based on the production of and use of steel have all moved overseas, and giant factories are literally sitting around rusting.
Prior to their movement overseas, the factories moved to the South because the Northern workers unionized and the Southern workers and states were much less friendly towards unions.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Nope, Scott, I don't know the wards, and I don't really know Frederickburg all that well. Jilleen was in my mission many more years ago than I care to remember, and I haven't met her husband.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Northwest Arkansas has been threatening (off and on) to break off from Arkansas and form the state of Ozark for over 30 years and it hasn't happened. (God I wish it would...)
California has talked about splitting into 2 (or 3) peices. LA and the bay area don't belong in the same state. And neither belong with the third of the state north of Santa Rosa.
Liberal, Kansas once threatened to split away from Kansas.
McDonald County, Missouri once threatened to leave Missouri and join Arkansas due to being left off the tourist map. This would have created an inverted bootheal on the western side of Missouri/Arkansas... but I think we warned them off.
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
quote:Liberal, Kansas once threatened to split away from Kansas.
Actually, it was a good chuck of southwest Kansas. There was a political reason behind that threat, too. Lack of representation in the judiciary or something. Can't remember exactly...
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
TStorm: Ya, I should have said "The area around Liberal, Kansas."
I remember at the time thinking they had a good reason to be pissed but I can't remember what it was.
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
My mind keeps telling me it had something to do with district court lines being redrawn...in a way that favored the eastern part of the state more than the west.
Or maybe it was related to taxes. That area is particularly rich in oil and natural gas deposits. I honestly don't remember exactly.
It's only tangentially related to this thread, but I'll say it anyway, for Pixiest: I'm from Kansas...not to be confused with the same Kansas that created Senators like Sam Brownback. Brownback calls homosexual acts 'immoral' From the examples we've seen listed here, it's probably true that there is a cultural divide in many states.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest:
California has talked about splitting into 2 (or 3) peices. LA and the bay area don't belong in the same state.
Says who? Our diversity is what makes us strong. Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Recommended reading: The Nine Nations of North America, Joel Garreau. It's from the 70's, but it's still true.
Regarding the anti-Southern thing: there's not much more ironic than stereotyping a group as stereotyping too much! Still, there are certainly worse fates than being looked down on. I'll take it from a black friend who told me, "If someone's prejudiced, that's their problem."
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
Let's hear it for Virginia love!
I've lived in Southwest VA all my life, and to anyone who hasn't seen the blue ridge mountains, you're definitely missing out.
But the article is definitely spot on about the difference between Nova and the rest, at least from what I've observed.
If nova seceded, though, the rest of VA wouldn't get all of those nova tax dollars! It would be a disaster.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Washington has had similar discussions about splitting, since Western Washington is a liberal hotbed and Eastern Washington is basically the Midwest, displaced.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: But then we could have a state named Nova. That would be a cool name for a state.
Except in Spanish.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
(Heh. I'm a little surprised that there's actually a town somewhere called "Liberal.")
quote:Regarding the anti-Southern thing: there's not much more ironic than stereotyping a group as stereotyping too much!
<grin> I had the same thought.
The whole separate culture thing seems like a double edged sword. As I understand it, many Northern Virginians don't really appreciate being told that they're not "real Virginians," even though they do acknowledge the differences.
--j_k
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
It's nice to see I've caused a little bit of upheaval
Actually, I'm well aware that not everyone south of the Mason Dixon line is a redneck member of the KKK. I had hoped that many enlightened people who happen to live in the south would agree with me, that it's very disturbing to see some of the entrenched racism going on. When I hear about high schools with segregated proms, it disgusts me.
There's racism everywhere, and there are good people everywhere, it's true. I don't think most of the people who post on Hatrack, even if they live in the deep south, are racist and backward.
I think it's appropriate though, to call a spade a spade, and be willing to stand up to the entrenched bigotry that does exist in many places in America, and often seems to rear its ugly head in the south. A lot of people in the south are ashamed of it, but a lot embrace it, flying the confederate flag high and supporting segregation.
Ignoring it won't make it go away, it only makes it worse.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If you had said that at first, it would have been okay. What you said at first is problematic.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: But then we could have a state named Nova. That would be a cool name for a state.
Except in Spanish.
*checks to see if nova means what she thinks it does in Spanish*
How is that not cool?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: But then we could have a state named Nova. That would be a cool name for a state.
Except in Spanish.
*checks to see if nova means what she thinks it does in Spanish*
How is that not cool?
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: If you had said that at first, it would have been okay. What you said at first is problematic.
I'm sorry that you chose to take it other than I had intended.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
"My home town, Atlanta, was burned to the ground. That's not something you think of lightly."
It was also a hundred and forty years ago. I'm not saying get over it, but get over it. Slavery the Civil War will always be part of your past, but they don't need to be part of your future..
kq, no va can mean "no go" in Spanish. It's not very idiomatic, though. There is also a slight difference in pronunciation.
"Having a blue-colored prejudice doesn't make someone sophisticated - it makes them backwards in a different way. "
I have written several responses to this and then deleted all of them. I cannot think of what to say except to affirm my belief that not all prejudices are equal. To believe that knowledge is better than ignorence is not wrong, it is fundamentaly right. To believe that an international outlook is preferable to localism is not wrong but a natural conclusion for today's society.
There are elements of rural Southern culture which I do find deeply disturbing, particularly its brand of fundamentalist Christianity and its deep anti-intellectualism which is the heart of Southern education problem. Futhermore, there is still a huge ammount of racism in the South, and not only against Blacks. There is also a great deal of sexism and an apalling degree of homophobia.
Theese are not differences to be celebrated, but social problems of the highest level.
Keep in mind that I am something of a Southerner. I have lived my life outside of the South (barely), but my mother and all her family are Southerners. One of my great-grandfathers was wounded and decorated in the Civil war, fighting for the South. Another great-grandfather was a share-cropper. My grandmother grew up in a shack in the middle of the woods with no electricity or running water and holes in the floor where you could see the chickens.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
MC: If you communicate badly, don't blame the messenger who informs you of it. It isn't my fault you posted narrow-minded and prejudiced material.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
kat, are you talking to me or MC? I'm pretty confused. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:To believe that an international outlook is preferable to localism is not wrong but a natural conclusion for today's society.
I agree! The point is that stereotyping large swaths of the United States is NOT being broad-minded, and thinking that one kind of provincialism is better than another is particularly deluded.
If you think that you aren't stereotyping the South by implying it is filled with ignorant locals, then you especially don't know what you are talking about and I suggest a tour of the country with stops to a bunch of the universities, museums, and charity events for diseases and refugees along the way. However, if you persist in believing you have nothing to learn, then you'll see nothing. Can you see how unfair you are being?
There ARE social problems with the South - as there is in the rest of the United States and the rest of the world. Focusing on the problems of the South and dismissing the entire region for it is as wrong as focusing on the race of some coke dealers and dismissing all blacks for it.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
This article could have been written about almost any state.
Eastern Washington vs. Western Washinton Salt Lake Valley vs. Rural Utah Missoula vs. Butte Northern California vs. Southern California Northern New Mexico vs. Southern New Mexico
and so on.
Every state I'm familiar with has a divide of some sort. Maybe the smaller eastern states are more homogenous, but the bigger states in the west are all divided.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
rivka, do you want to join my "No one can tell when I'm kidding" club?
I call it NOCTWIK. Only, that's hard to remember, so I call it TICKWON.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Pfft. I'm a founding member!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Are you kidding?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I fell for that Chevy Nova story. I guess a little Spanish can be a dangerous thing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
I actually don't live in Fredericksburg city; I'm in the suburbs outside of it, in Spotsylvania county.
I'll be passing through there, whilst visiting the Fredericksburg Civil War battle site, in about five months. Anything big or cool I should see while I'm there? Or anywhere special to eat?
I should add, that this thread has overwhelmingly reaffirmed my longstanding belief that the Electoral College needs to die fast and hard.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"This article could have been written about almost any state...Northern California vs. Southern California..."
Coastal California vs Inland California
[ March 17, 2007, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: MC: If you communicate badly, don't blame the messenger who informs you of it. It isn't my fault you posted narrow-minded and prejudiced material.
If you choose to be reactionary, instead of offering a fellow poster the benefit of the doubt, who is the more narrow-minded?
I can't force you to take offense when none is intended, and particularly none is directed at you. You have to choose to do that yourself.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Lyrhawn:
You MUST get directions to Carl's frozen custard and give it a visit. Best frozen confection EVER.
I'm serious. If you pass up this opportunity, I'll never speak to you again.
There are a number of excellent restaurants in Downtown Fredericksburg; we enjoy Olde Towne Steak and Seafood (very pricey) and La Petit Auberge (pricier)... For good seafood, you might like Barefoot Greens; mostly fried stuff, but they've got make some good crab.
Mmm...crab. If you're in Northern VA, or Maryland, you HAVE to try the blue crab. Delicious. It's an exercise to eat them, but worth it, IMO. They can be expensive; about $50-60/bushel. But a bushel will feed a number of adults, so... (Maryland has better crabs. I suggest Captain John's Crab House on Cobb Island, if you're ever out by Dahlgren. All you can eat steamed blue crabs...)
More modestly priced food can be had in Downtown Fredericksburg, too. All food that isn't fast food is good down there. There's a vegetarian restaurant that consistently gets good reviews; I think it's called Merrimans. OSC gave a favorable review to Mike and Dave's cafe.
Anyway...lots of good food in Fredericksburg.
Which Civil War battle site are you going to? Every inch of Fredericksburg, and most of Spotsylvania was a battle site...
Whatever you do, schedule two or three hours to walk around downtown Fredericksburg. Take it slow-- there are lots of little hole in the wall places that you miss if you go too quickly.
There's not as much to do in Spotsylvania. The battlefields are largely do-it-yourself tours, and are spaced far enough apart you can't visit them on foot. There is no (or little) public transportation in the city or the county; your best bet is to stick with the city if you are just doing a day trip. If you DO visit a battlefield in Spotsy, try the Battlefied of the Bloody Angle. That's the one our family likes the most. (But probably for different reasons than historical interest) Battlefields in Spotsy are rarely crowded; in Fredericksburg, you may have a difficult time in the visitor's center.
Spotsylvania is extremely close to Fredericksburg; when we learned our Civil War history in Middle School (when I lived in Texas) I always imagined them far apart. They are not-- only about seven miles. However, if you're visiting on a Friday, or on a weekend, traffic can be a bear. Also, driving in Fredericksburg city can be an experience, as the one way streets often aren't labeled, and there's never any parking.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Prometheus--
Sorry. You're not a Southerner. You're missing the qualifications.
1) You don't seem to want to be a Southerner.
2) You haven't lived in the South.
Ignoring the problems that any culture has isn't healthy. The South has its share-- poverty, education, racism, etc.
However, to a lot of people, the Confederate flag and its children don't represent the problems within Southern culture, but its unique strengths. To these people, the Confederate flag represents the Blues, Jazz, good cooking, friendliness, honor, and patriotism. It represents gentility and good manners.
I'm not in favor of the Confederate flag flying over anyone's capitol building, or behind anyone automobile. I think that the offenses that the State it represented committed are severe enough that Southern culture is better represented by some other symbol. But I've taken the time to investigate the issue, and understand it from the opposite viewpoint.
MC:
Segregated proms? What?
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
In the county where I live (in northern Virginia, no less), half of our *county* wants to secede from the other half. The western part of the county is more rural, & those in favor of secession really dislike the rapid suburbanization of the county.
I'm not a Southerner (grew up in Pennsylvania), but my husband is. We like NoVa, but most of it is most definitely NOT the South. On the other hand, there are pockets (for example, in the aforementioned western part of my county) that feel--and sound--much more like the southern part of the state. If the reporter had just driven 50 miles west of Alexandria...
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Doesn't Prometheus live in Texas?
-o-
I'm sure I don't count as Southern either. FWIW, though, I was born and have lived my life south of the Mason-Dixon line. In addition to Florida, I have lived in Tennessee and in both Carolinas. I love the best parts of southern culture. In my tastes in art, in towns, and in general outlook, I believe I can honestly claim to be Southern. And that damned old flag doesn't stand for any of the things I love about the South. At least, not to me it doesn't. *shrug* To me it stands for all the things that are wrong with the South. And not because of what liberals or northerners say, but because of the other values that are often associated with that flag by the very people waving it.
And I have investigated the issue.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Scott -
To tell you the truth, we were only planning on making a short stop in Fredericksburg, I didn't realize there was so much to be seen. I'm the big history geek of the group of friends (me and two girls) that are going, and I demanded a certain amount of Civil War Battle Site time, but I'm using up a lot of it on Gettysburg, Andersonville, and Chickamauga. I had to give up Manassas because it was too far out of the way, so I don't know how long they'll let me linger in Fredericksburg. I also don't know the area at all. I know Gettysburg like the back of my hand, so driving around there is easy, but I haven't a clue as to Fredericksburg.
We will DEFINETELY stop at the custard place. We have something like that on the West side of Michigan (which I only get once a year when I make my trek over there) called Whippy Dip. I don't know about the rest. Originally we were going to go white water rafting in Richmond on the James River, but apparently the place we were going to do it with lost their license, so now we're doing it in Pennsylvania. I was planning on getting some good seafood when we go to the Outer Banks in NC. How good is this blue crab stuff you speak of? And how much is in a bushel? Our voyage through Virginia is driving from Washington DC to Virginia Beach, where we're staying the night, and it will be on a Friday I think. I think we're stopping off in Fredericksburg for maybe an hour, and going to Newport News for like an hour to see a maritime museum.
I wish I had more time to spend in some of these places, but it's kind of a whirlwind 11 day road trip that covers a LOT of ground. The only place we'll be for any length of time is Orlando for Disneyworld.
Think you could meet us as Carl's for some frozen custard that afternoon/evening?
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
CustardCon!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:In the county where I live (in northern Virginia, no less), half of our *county* wants to secede from the other half. The western part of the county is more rural, & those in favor of secession really dislike the rapid suburbanization of the county.
You're in Louden? Cool.
Lyrhawn, the Fredericksburg battlefield is a moving place to visit. There's a place on the tour where you stand where the first rank of entrenched Southerners were, elevated and overlooking a couple hundred yards without any cover, going slightly uphill, over which the Northern commander ordered his troops to charge. The Southerners had 1 in 3 shooting, with the other two reloading, so shots were going off at an incredible rate. It was slaughter, and to stand where it happened is to actually feel "What the hell were they thinking."
People took carriages from DC to see the first battle of the civil war. It was a spectator sport.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I realize this is a few years old, but this kind of thing should NOT be happening in 2003. I'm sure it's not a unique case, based on how normal all the people involved seem to think it is:
Their High School had its FIRST integrated prom in 2002!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I'm sorry that you chose to take it other than I had intended.
Dude. Quit weaseling around it, MC. You deliberately phrased your post in an offensive manner because you felt there were problems in 'The South' that deserved it. Stop all this benefit of the doubt nonsense.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I do think there are problems in the south, and if the shoe fits, they should hop in and clomp around a little. I hope it gives them bunions.
At the same time, I think it doesn't take an ounce of good faith to realize I was speaking to a specific subset of people who are the problem, and not categorizing half the population of the US as yokels.
You can read it as a direct criticism of a very closed-minded and bigoted segment of the population, which it is. You can also choose to get yourself riled up and take offense.
If you want to defend institutionalized segregation, step up to the plate and do so. If you agree with me, that segments of the South are indeed messed up and backward in their thinking, I don't see any benefit in looking for something to be huffy about.
I make no apology or weaseling about it: the parts of the South where segregation and racism run rampant are beneath my contempt.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:In the county where I live (in northern Virginia, no less), half of our *county* wants to secede from the other half. The western part of the county is more rural, & those in favor of secession really dislike the rapid suburbanization of the county.
You're in Louden? Cool.
Lyrhawn, the Fredericksburg battlefield is a moving place to visit. There's a place on the tour where you stand where the first rank of entrenched Southerners were, elevated and overlooking a couple hundred yards without any cover, going slightly uphill, over which the Northern commander ordered his troops to charge. The Southerners had 1 in 3 shooting, with the other two reloading, so shots were going off at an incredible rate. It was slaughter, and to stand where it happened is to actually feel "What the hell were they thinking."
People took carriages from DC to see the first battle of the civil war. It was a spectator sport.
Ever been to Gettysburg? It's the same thing only a MILE over open land with multiple lines of Union soldiers firing with canon support from all over the field. Almost thirteen thousand Confederates attacked, and half were casualties by the end of the assualt within minutes as the Union troops shouted "Fredericksburg! Fredericksburg!" as Pickett and Lee looked on from afar.
It's going to be an amazing trip to see both sites within a couple days. I've already been to Gettysburg before, but there's so much to see, I missed a lot last time. Thanks for point that out though, I really hadn't given much though to which part of the Fredericksburg battlefield to actually focus on.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:If you want to defend institutionalized segregation, step up to the plate and do so. If you agree with me, that segments of the South are indeed messed up and backward in their thinking, I don't see any benefit in looking for something to be huffy about.
It's nice, the way you're attempting to frame the argument so that disagreement with you puts you firmly with segregationists, but it just doesn't wash.
What you said first didn't mention anything about "segments".
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: "This article could have been written about almost any state...Northern California vs. Southern California..."
Coastal California vs Inland California
That would make for REALLY funny lookin' states.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Anyone live in South-Eastern Virginia?
I reside in Virginia Beach.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Rakeesh: Here's what I said:
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: The South frightens me. I have a hard time understanding how part of the country can be so backward and behind the rest. Some people in the south still think they should have won the War of Northern Aggression so they wouldn't have all these black folk messing up their towns.
I added emphasis to help you out. Think what you like. If you aren't willing to discuss in good faith, I don't care what you think about my initial intentions. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Puffy Treat: Anyone live in South-Eastern Virginia?
I reside in Virginia Beach.
I grew up there. My folks moved up to No. Va. when I was at UVA for undergrad in 89, and I came up here starting with school breaks then.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:The South frightens me. I have a hard time understanding how part of the country can be so backward and behind the rest. Some people in the south still think they should have won the War of Northern Aggression so they wouldn't have all these black folk messing up their towns.
If you cannot, examining this paragraph in retrospect, understand how it implies you feel a certain way about the entire South, you're either just short-sighted or covering for yourself.
In one sentence, you say the South is bad. In another sentence, you say some people in the South are bad. You offered no qualifications in the post, only did so after the fact.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
There are parts of Northern VA that are worse than the worst parts of Southern VA.
Posted by PrometheusBound (Member # 10020) on :
I've never been to any part of Virginia except for Colonial Williamsburg (when I was a very small boy), Charlottesville and the suburbs of Richmond. Charlottesville is very pretty, although the climate is much to humid for my tastes. Is that Northern or Southern Virginia? It looks pretty Northern on a map to me....
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: A lot of people in the south are ashamed of it, but a lot embrace it, flying the confederate flag high and supporting segregation.
While some people fly the flag to insult blacks, most of them fly it to insult Yankees. According to Wiki, it's the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. I was told it became popular in the 60s whent he North started butting in telling the South what to do. It's sort of a giant "Yankee, go home" sign.
Straight from Wiki:
quote: ...the Confederate Flag has always had connotations of rebellion, patriotism, self-determination, dissent, freedom, and liberty. Since the issues of slavery and, later, segregation, are deeply intertwined with the CSA and the Civil Rights Movement, the Confederate Flag can also be considered to have connotations of racism and slavery.
The flag has a lot more to do with the person flying it than any one ideology. Heck, the design was originally changed from an upright cross so Southern Jews would feeel more included.
As for racism in the South, I think we suffer the same problem as everyone else. Blacks and whites tend not to live in the same neighborhoods, so they don't know each other. We aren't friends, so we want to live near people we're more comfortable with. Our kids don't go to the same schools, or if they do, they don't hang out because they have nothing in common. So when they grow up, they live in seperate neighborhoods and don't know each other. How do you fix that institutionally?
I don't think you can. I think we just need to be nice to the folks we do know and be open to the idea of making friends with people who don't look just like us. Meanwhile, because our racism is constantly thrown in our faces, we do tend to be aware of our stereotypes and assumptions about others. It's not perfect, but it's not terrible, either.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: I was told it became popular in the 60s whent he North started butting in telling the South what to do.
This is true, but I don't think this makes the connotation less racist. What the North (some of the North, not all, of course) was telling the South to do was to give black children equal education, let black adults vote, and dismantle a system that, by design, limited the opportunities for blacks to progress economically.
The confederate emblem was added to the Georgia state flag in direct response to Brown.
I do believe that some individuals who fly the flag do so for non-racist reasons, but the fact that it was an actual governmental symbol used twice to rally support for policies aimed directly at harming black people makes me think the non-racist cultural reasons for flying it are outweighed by the hurt it causes many who see it.*
*Outside the context of certain memorials or historical displays. It is appropriate, when honoring dead soldiers, to display the flag under which they fought.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Isn't Northern Virginia... well... West Virginia? Or is that just an aftereffect of the AOL hub in Richmond warping time and space?
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
The South was mad becuase they didn't want to be nice to blacks. But I suspect they were pretty ticked that the North wanted them to be nicer to blacks than they were themselves. Which is worse, a law that says blacks can't go to white schools or blacks not going to white schools because whites move out of a northern neighborhood when the blacks move in? Does it make a bit of difference who's better if the end result was that blacks went to inferior schools?
My great-grandmother loved a joke that, of course, isn't funny anymore. Basically, an old black man went from door to door looking for some food. The first two houses were northern women who were kind, called him sir, and wouldn't feed him. The last was a southern woman who called him names, told him to get around back - but she fed him.
Southerners might have looked down on blacks, but there was often a genuine affection or sense of responsibility there that I don't know that any other region ever felt. I feel Southerners were so angry about the Civil Rights Movement because they felt betrayed. Like when a child rebels against a domineering parent, they honestly didn't see what htey were doing as wrong so the blacks must have been ungrateful.
I think Southern attitudes towards blacks have historically been more complicated than they've ever been presented as.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Which is worse, a law that says blacks can't go to white schools or blacks not going to white schools because whites move out of a northern neighborhood when the blacks move in? Does it make a bit of difference who's better if the end result was that blacks went to inferior schools?
I'm pretty sure the north didn't send troops into the South to stop white flight. Beyond that, oppressive law is far worse than oppressive (to cast it in the worst possible light) choice of where to live. Both reflect ugly attitudes. But the former reflects ugly attitudes backed by coercive force.
quote:I think Southern attitudes towards blacks have historically been more complicated than they've ever been presented as.
I think that's very true. But I think, speaking historically and generally, they were far worse than Northern attitudes towards blacks. And I'm not saying the Northern attitudes were very good at all.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
"But I think, speaking historically and generally, they were far worse than Northern attitudes towards blacks. And I'm not saying the Northern attitudes were very good at all."
In that case, we agree completely.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Uprooted:
As it turns out, Jillene works at the same elementary school as my Mom.
Small world after all.
Icarus:
I dunno. You sound pretty Southern to me...
quote:Charlottesville is very pretty, although the climate is much to humid for my tastes. Is that Northern or Southern Virginia? It looks pretty Northern on a map to me....
No. It's definitely not in northern Virginia. More like central Virginia. Though, if you asked the folks living there, they'd probably say western Virginia, since central Virginia implies being close to that stinkpot Richmond...
(I happen to like Richmond-- they've got a great science museum and a middling kids' museum. Plus, barbecue. Mmmmmm...
Also, Mrs. M lives there.)
Charlottesville is beautiful. I worked there for about a year.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
To be fair, white flight, in Detroit anyway, wasn't just racially motivated. To be sure there were big, big problems in Detroit, the base of which I think started from a massive influx of southern blacks (and whites, though not as much) who came to Detroit seeking jobs in the 40's.
Anyway, the reason a lot, a LOT of whites left in the 50's and 60's was because Detroit's taxes were unbearably high. Companies left the city, opened factories and created jobs in the suburbs, and the whites left to follow the jobs and get away from the high taxes. The injustice was that racist lending practices that didn't allow blacks to leave the city and trapped them there, but you can hardly blame whites for leaving. There's plenty of blame to go around.
The 12th Street Riot just sealed the deal. Middle class blacks fled the city too, no one wanted to be there.
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