I guess I shouldn't be surprised, not with child soldiers being used all over the third world, but I am.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Jesus...
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
I believe the word "cowards" wouldn't do them justice. This is sickening on an all new level.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
They were willing to use children as child soldiers, willing to use them as suicide bombers, willing to kill them in suicide bombings...
Now they use them as decoys to play on our sympathies. I suppose it really isn't new, it's just using an old trick to be more clever.
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
Every once in awhile, I read or hear something that just makes me shake my head and say, What the bloody hell is wrong with people.
This is one of those times. Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:Gen Barbero said there had been also two adults in the car. They parked it near a market, abandoned it with the children inside and apparently detonated it.
Why would they leave the kids inside? They were no longer useful as decoys.
Something is fishy about this.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
"'Children used' in Iraq bombing"
Islam: the religion of peace and compassion...
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Islam: the religion of peace and compassion...
Look Krankykat, I dig where you're coming from, but that sort of statement can be applied to any religion successfully. Even Christianity. Outside a war zone.
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:Islam: the religion of peace and compassion...
Look Krankykat, I dig where you're coming from, but that sort of statement can be applied to any religion successfully. Even Christianity. Outside a war zone.
All too easily, in fact. However, it's important to remember this does not reflect what all Muslims would even consider acceptable. My Muslim friends hate terrorists almost more than anyone else I know, and I very much believe this news will make them only angrier.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Maybe the kids had been kidnapped. Fill your car with your enemies' children, then go blow it up where your enemies congregate.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Originally posted by Foust: Why would they leave the kids inside? They were no longer useful as decoys.
Something is fishy about this.
Fishy nothing...the insurgents running the show will use any means to get what they want. Which is part of their terror plan...that they would kill their own children shows how far they'd go to prove that we can't go as far as them.
Of course to fight against a superpower I suppose the only successful way is to be completely immoral.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Maybe the kids had been kidnapped. Fill your car with your enemies' children, then go blow it up where your enemies congregate.
That occured to me as well.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Rak:
So tell when and where Christians, Christianity or another religions do and/or endorse using little kids for a decoy in a "suicide attack" and then leave them in the exploding car to die?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I believe several Christian cults have killed children in mass suicides.
Christian extremist fighters in Africa commonly use children as child warriors.
And it's not THAT fishy that they would leave them. If someone got out of their car and walked away, it might be suspicious and someone might check it out. But with kids in the backseat? Not so much. It's camouflage.
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
Kranky, do you honestly believe that Islam endorses this?
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
Now this is what I am talking about. This is our hope... Local Responsibility Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Apparently Islam specifically endorses kids to die for Allah.
"Children are pushed by their parents, teachers, friends and the education they receive in the Palestinian Authority schools glorifying death as Martyrs [“Shahid” – death for Allah] – as a supreme virtue. As the number of those killed rises, the Palestinian media extols and exalts not only those killed, but also their willingness to die as Martyrs for Allah, emphasizing that dying a Martyr’s death was the realization of their hopes. By examining closely what the children and their parents are saying it is likely that there are young children who are going directly to areas of conflict with the clear goal of endangering their lives, in order to their please their parents, friends, and teachers."
Lyrhawn "Christian cults have killed children in mass suicides."
"Christian cults" does not mean the groups or their leaders are "Chrisians" and/or follow the teachings of Jesus.
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
Do you maybe have a more valid source for your opinion that a religion embraced by BILLIONS of people endorses using children in suicide bombings? Maybe a source that isnt quite so openly predjudiced against Palestine? Or maybe one that addresses the issue in Iraq, which is where this is taking place?
You could, of course quote some choice scriptures from the Koran, which DOES indeed endorse martydom and violence. But then someone would just be forced to quote some particularly choice quotes from the Bible, which would seem to endorse rape and child murder.
As you said, and I completely agree with you, ""Christian cults" does not mean the groups or their leaders are "Chrisians" and/or follow the teachings of Jesus." Just replace Christian with Islamic and you'll be good to go.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Well, you didn't discount what I said about Christians using child soldiers, but just using what you said...
And the answer is easy: "Islamic fundamentalists" doesn't mean they are representative of the entire Muslim faith. The Bible isn't exactly a walk in a Spring meadow at sunset.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krankykat: "'Children used' in Iraq bombing"
Islam: the religion of peace and compassion...
Indeed, I definitely share your distaste. I only hope you can join me in condemning all religions that have used children in warfare.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Bean, I really appreciate you posting that. Not being sarcastic, I really do. Thank you. Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
I dont have 12 minutes right now and I cant watch it from work. I will watch it when I get home. But, I have to say that a Google video is not something I would consider to be a "valid" source. Even if it's originally from a valid source, there are too many opportunites to cut and paste and create what one wants out of raw information.
I honestly think it's a bad idea, even a dangerous idea, to base an opinion upon information gotten from a questionable source. The site you originally quoted from might have some valid points, but it is VERY OBVIOUSLY biased against Palestine and Islam in general. It uses hardcore rhetoric to incite strong, negative emotions in it's readers. I cannot trust information from such a source. Hell, I cant trust information from half the news media who do the exact same thing. But, there IS good information out there, and I think it's worth finding.
Otherwise our opinions are based on emotions manipulated in us by people with an agenda. I, personally, dont want to think that way.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
foundling:
I think the video link illustrates Muslim leaders, who use the Koran as their source of inspiration and site it, do "indeed endorse martydom and violence."
"...choice quotes in the Bible, which would seem to endorse rape and child murder?" UMM
As a Christian I look to the words of Jesus. So, what are his "choice words" that endorse rape and child murder?
In the Old Testament, if you can find the "choice words", explain them in context.
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
I understand where you're coming from in your indignation against these so called "religious leaders". But you are condeming an entire religion based solely on the actions of a few.
"As a Christian I look to the words of Jesus. So, what are his "choice words" that endorse rape and child murder?" As a Christian, do you not think that the bible is the Word of God and beneficial for teaching,for reproving,for setting things straight? That would include the whole bible, not just the words of Christ, right?
"In the Old Testament, if you can find the "choice words", explain them in context."
Oy. Rivka would kill me. Explain them in context... do you mean explain them in the context that they were explained to you?
Anybody can take the words of the Bible and twist them to their own ends. Anybody can take the words of the Koran and do the same thing. It doesnt meant that they represent truly the meaning of either book.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Wait, what am I killing you for?
Stormy, thanks for pointing out CB's link. That is awesome.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
The assumed equivalence of the Koran and the Bible is horrid blind spot in our current culture. Some of these people are managing to rise above the Koran's core teachings and its single minded intent. That is a good thing, but it is no recommendation. The book has as much claim to scriptural legitimacy as the Book of Mormon, without the obvious good intentions. Why we give it status on a par with legitimate scripture is incomprehensible to me.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Because "we" don't get to define "legitimate scripture."
Posted by The Flying Dracula Hair (Member # 10155) on :
Aside from it being hideous and sickening, I don't understand it as a strategy; it seems like a tactic that can only be used ONCE before every checkpoint soldier becomes wary of ALL vehicles.
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
Bean, I have two words for you:
Red Neck. A'Yup. Them there Jesus hatin', baby eatin', mother killin' brown folk just need the light o' the LORD to show them the err-or of their ways. Soon, praise be to the lord, they'll know the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set them free!! HALLELUJAH!!!! ::plays dueling banjos and hopes the nice rednecks out there dont kill her::
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
foundling:
"But you are condeming an entire religion based solely on the actions of a few."
The actions of a few can have profound effects. Remember Hitler, the Nazis and the Holocaust? The Nazi party did truly represent all Germans during the 1930's and 40's, but they did sit back and allow the extermination of six million plus Jews and others seen as enemys of the Third Reich.
And don't forget that not all Soviets approved of and believed Stalin and the Communist Party and their systematic annialation of millions of Soviet citizens seen as enemys of the state.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So basically you're just saying that the sins of the minority are visited on the majority.
Nothing really new there. And it doesn't at all prove your point about Islam.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Lyrhawn:
The ultimate goal of radical Islam is the annihilation of Israel and the West, especially the US. The radical clerics and politicians speak on the behalf if Allah, and not just on behalf of their nationalistic views. Allah is the binding force that unifies all of Islam . Jihad and Shahid are major tenants of Islam and strongly incouraged. I believe these clerics speak on behalf of the majority of Muslims and the majority agree with them, although not all Muslim are going to admit it, especially those that live in the U.S.
[ March 21, 2007, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Krankykat ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I believe these clerics speak on behalf of the majority of Muslims and the majority agree with them, although not all Muslim are going to admit it, especially those that live in the U.S.
Why do you believe that?
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
The fact of the matter is that so long as the majority of Muslims do nothing, they are not politically significant. They are a null program. If they want to learn from the lessons of history then they need get a handle on their crazy folk before we need to do it, the Iraqi's are very lucky that our techniques and our touch is so sophisticated today, because we would have come just as fast in any other time and made a lot more of a mess.
quote: Because "we" don't get to define "legitimate scripture."
"We" Certainly do. That is why "we" learn scripture, so "we" can spot a phony, that is why "they" encourage illiteracy, because then only "they" know the scripture is there to keep a few of "them" in control.
It does not take a Genius to spot the flaws in the Koran, if you made a list of everything a politically shrewd and lecherous man would want for himself and his divided people, then put "God Wants" in front of it you get the Koran.
I am only a person who reads a great many stories and I can spot the difference in a moment, any true scholar on the subject can surely do the same, and I am sure many have. Though the current inclusive attitude would no doubt label them as biased, as if phrenology belongs in med school.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
Noeman:
Besides constant worldwide terrorist attacks by Muslims over the last 20 years, slaughter of Sudan's Christians by its Muslims, disgusting treatment of their women, openly displaying hatred of the US, Western Europe Isreal, no tolerance of other religions, especially Judism, horrid human rights records all endorsed by the Koran, leaders and clerics and with no public objection by adherents to Islam, the following pretty much sums up my belief.
"JIHAD IS A CENTRAL DUTY of every Muslim. Modern Muslim theologians have spoken of many things as jihads: the struggle within the soul, defending the faith from critics, supporting its growth and defense financially, even migrating to non-Muslim lands for the purpose of spreading Islam. But in Islamic history and doctrine violent jihad is founded on numerous verses of the Qur'an — most notably, one known in Islamic theology as the "Verse of the Sword": "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful" (Sura 9:5). Establishing "regular worship" and paying the "poor-due" (zakat) means essentially that they will become Muslim, as these are two of the central responsibilities of every Muslim.
Sahih Bukhari, which Muslims regard as the most trustworthy of all the many collections of traditions of Muhammad, records this statement of the Prophet: "Allah assigns for a person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah's Cause and nothing causes him to do so except belief in Allah and in His Messengers, that he will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."
Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406), a pioneering historian and philosopher, was also a legal theorist. In his renowned Muqaddimah, the first work of historical theory, he notes that "in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." In Islam, the person in charge of religious affairs is concerned with "power politics," because Islam is "under obligation to gain power over other nations."
Violent jihad is a constant of Islamic history. The passages quoted above and many others like them form a major element of the motivation of jihad warriors worldwide today. No major Muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad. The theology of jihad, with all its assumptions about unbelievers‚ lack of human rights and dignity, is available today as a justification for anyone with the will and the means to bring it to life."
Source: Jihad Watch
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Because the Bible NEVER talks about spiritual warfare...ever....
-pH
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Counter Bean: The assumed equivalence of the Koran and the Bible is horrid blind spot in our current culture. Some of these people are managing to rise above the Koran's core teachings and its single minded intent. That is a good thing, but it is no recommendation.
Huh. I'd actually have to agree with this part. It *is* a horrible thing when people assume that the Koran and the Bible are equivalent. Both texts work hard at being single-minded and simplistic and it is insulting to their efforts to simply assume that they are equal.
As it stands, as horrible as the Bible may be, the Koran is quite clearly more horrible.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
The Koran is the product of a single man and time, spelling out his will, describing his ups and downs, it is 'Mien Kampf' not the Bible. It is not surprising that both created populist, sexist, fascist, racist regimes. Apparently if Hitler had been the founder of a religion he would still be credible today
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Now this is what I am talking about. This is our hope... Local Responsibility
I agree. But unless we hand over all of the factors of production to the Iraqies, and not merely the federal government, local responsibility is going to be hard to cultivate. Americans don't like the idea of writing a blank check and ceding control of the reconstruction, and Iraqies don't like the idea of their natural resources and labor being used to the advantage of absentee American owners and business interests.
I'm not sure that the area is going to reach something we'd consider stability until the cultural, political, and economic spheres are controlled by Iraqies. And there are going to be mistakes and inefficiencies and the ever present threat that we end up with a country-- or three-- whose population is profoundly anti-US, or worse, anti-democratic.
[ March 21, 2007, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
"Apparently if Hitler had been the founder of a religion he would still be credible today."
Interesting point.
Posted by Counter Bean (Member # 10176) on :
Have you ever seen Iraqi construction? If our money is to be spent wisely we cannot allow Iraqi standards to rule the day. I have said in the past and say now, it is absolutely imperative that the oil profits go to the people as soon as possible. No government writing a weekly check is going anywhere. What that money in the hands of the people would do is incalculable.
Half the people in America are elitist anti-democratic America haters, we get along fine because they are too invested in the system to really rock the boat.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Half the people in America are elitist anti-democratic America haters
Thank you oh gods of irony.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*snort*
Posted by Rotar Mode (Member # 9898) on :
I really don't have the time or will to get involved seriously in this discussion. The only thing I can really contribute at the present moment is my e-mail address. It's in my profile and I check it daily. If anyone wants to discuss my faith, its tenets, its interpretations, or if any other related information is necessary, I am at your service. For those of you who don't know me, I am a practicing muslim who has studied all of the pertinent scriptures of Islam.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Stellar way to handle it, Rotar Mode.
Posted by Rotar Mode (Member # 9898) on :
Thank you, CT.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Rotar, if you're willing to discuss it by email, why not on a board where all can participate and benefit? I'm pretty sure a lot of people here would make sure that you weren't treated unfairly.
Posted by Rotar Mode (Member # 9898) on :
The thing is though, Storm Saxon, I'm not on these boards much, and it would take me quite a while to respond to a large amount of questions, whereas e-mail is quicker for me. If you want me to though, I can start a question thread.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
No, no. I just wanted to make sure that the reason you didn't want to do it on the board here wasn't because you felt like you would be dogpiled or something. Posted by Rotar Mode (Member # 9898) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: No, no. I just wanted to make sure that the reason you didn't want to do it on the board here wasn't because you felt like you would be dogpiled or something.
No worries. I've spent over forty years dealing with these issues, so i'm not afraid of dogpiling. Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
quote: The fact of the matter is that so long as the majority of Americans do nothing, they are not politically significant. They are a null program. If they want to learn from the lessons of history then they need get a handle on their crazy folk before we need to do it, the Americans are very lucky that our techniques and our touch is so sophisticated today, because we would have come just as fast in any other time and made a lot more of a mess.
Quote atrributed to radical Islamist Jihadist...
quote: "We" Certainly do. That is why "we" learn scripture, so "we" can spot a phony, that is why "they" encourage illiteracy, because then only "they" know the scripture is there to keep a few of "them" in control.
Who is "We", you ignorant hick??? Do you think you speak for anyone other than yourself? Good god, I hope not. You are a small minority, for now, and the only way we can hope to keep it that way is outshouting your vitriolic NASTINESS and replacing with actual, reasoned, hopefully enlightened words. Which, obviously, will need to come from others because I'm too busy spouting my anger at you...
quote: It does not take a Genius to spot the flaws in the Bible, if you made a list of everything a politically shrewd and lecherous man would want for himself and his divided people, then put "God Wants" in front of it you get the Bible.
Wow. How very unchristian of you.
quote:I am only a person who reads a great many stories and I can spot the difference in a moment, any true scholar on the subject can surely do the same, and I am sure many have. Though the current inclusive attitude would no doubt label them as biased, as if phrenology belongs in med school.
Your pretentions at education and intelligence are, unfortunately, transparently ridiculous. You may read alot of stories, but I'm willing to bet that every single one of them agrees with your limited, bigoted view of the world. Reading does you no good if it doesnt open your mind to other peoples reality.
quote: The Koran is the product of a single man and time, spelling out his will, describing his ups and downs, it is 'Mien Kampf' not the Bible. It is not surprising that both created populist, sexist, fascist, racist regimes. Apparently if Hitler had been the founder of a religion he would still be credible today
This is against the TOS. I hope it gets you banned, but I doubt it will.
quote:Half the people in America are elitist anti-democratic America haters, we get along fine because they are too invested in the system to really rock the boat.
The day you realize that you just describe yourself is the day you become a better person. I hope it happens within the next 50 years, I really do.
[ March 21, 2007, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: foundling ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Kittens Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
The kittens are forbidden.
Posted by Papa Janitor (Member # 7795) on :
This topic is getting at least a time-out while I talk to some people.
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