Im looking at a comparision if in a what if scenario there was a wormhole between the Star Wars Galaxy and the Milky way and the Empire tried to invade the Federation. And oh boy the choice of who to bet on doesnt seem all that hard unfortunetely....
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I feel a great disturbance in the force, as if millions of Nerds suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Picard can always sic Q on the Empire. My money's sticking with the Federation. Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
This is exactly the kind of thing that Q would find amusing. Why would he listen to Picard? The Human Race is still on trial.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
That website was far more entertaining than it should have been.
--j_k
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
Yes. We can forget the Empire fighting the Federation. It would end up as the Jedi fighting Q.
Vader: "The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force." Q: "Oh, please."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Okay, here's the deal. The Empire could possibly win the war, provided they didn't waste their resources on building superweapons -- but the Federation would win every battle. The ability to enter combat at relativistic speeds simply blows anything the SWU could throw at them out of space.
In a combat between a Star Destroyer and the Enterprise, for example, the latter would actually and literally run rings around the former; it'd be practically unhittable. And God help the SD if its shields proved to be incapable of blocking transporter signals; if that were the case, the battle would literally last seconds, and would be resolved instantly in favor of the Enterprise.
Add in the fact that the STU actually has not only cloaking but phasing technology and functional time travel, and it's not even a contest. The Empire's ships are faster over long ranges, but they can't reach enemy planets before they left. The Federation's, however, actually can.
The Empire has resources an order of magnitude greater than the Federation; that said, the Federation has the ability to instantly assemble all small parts using replicators.
It would boil down to the ground war. In theory, the Empire would win that one -- but I suspect that the Federation would lose a number of planets and then stabilize into a defensive situation relying on space blockades.
Posted by orlox (Member # 2392) on :
quote:Our Star Destroyers can easily traverse our galaxy in a matter of a few weeks, with travel speeds of over 1 million times the speed of light. However, hyperdrive does have some limitations; a ship travelling in hyperspace cannot fly through a star, and it can be affected if it passes by high-energy events such as supernovae ("without precise calculations we'd fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"- Han Solo, ANH).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Qaz: Vader: "The power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the Force." Q: "Oh, please."
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Tom- not sure the SWU ever needs to actually hit anything from the STU. Superior tactical ability is nice, but the STU has nothing thats going to come even close to damaging a star destroyer... and those star destroyers carry enough weaponry to more or less turn a planet in the STU to slag. And there's enough star destroyers to overwhelm every planetary defence in the federation simultaneously.
Tactics are nice, but logistics and strategic reserve for the SWU are so far ahead of the STU that the federation doesn't have enough resources to mount a significant defence. After 200 star destroyers plus support ships show up at every planet in the federation and pound the planets for 30 seconds, the war is over.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
All the Federation would have to do is sic the Borg on SWU and it would be over.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:the STU has nothing thats going to come even close to damaging a star destroyer...
Why do we think that? We know Star Destroyers can be destroyed through simple ramming, much less laser damage. The Enterprise isn't much smaller than a SD, and can accelerate its torpedoes to slightly above the speed of light in normal space. That's one heck of a collision.
I agree with you on the logistics point, except that the SWU doesn't seem capable of actually managing logistics at that level; all of its combats involve a scant few hundred ships, even the conclusive ones, and never seem to occur simultaneously. And, of course, the STU has time travel; a disastrous loss can be theoretically compensated for by a single surviving warp-capable ship.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I don't know enough about time travel works in the STU, so I won't engage on that point.
As far as the damage, the STU lasers are about 1000 times weaker then the SWU lasers, and we see capital ships absorbing and handling SWU lasers in SW movies.
You may have a point on the torpedos, though. I was thinking purely energy output of the detonation, which is very small compared to what we know SDs can absorb.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
This thread rocks my geek world! Relativistic combat vs Star Wars? Lawlz.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Is this pre or post Voyager?
If we have Transphasic torpedoes and advanced ablative hull armor, I don't see how the Empire really stands a chance when one torpedo can destroy a cube, it could likely destroy a star destroyer as well.
And I have no doubt the Klingons would join us in battle. Besides, we DO have ion cannons, we stole the technology from the Breen. I think that website understates the power of a protpn torpedo though. If a single starfighter squadron can destroy a Vic-Star with a couple barrages from of those things, I think it's more than just a weak torpedo.
I would give a serious edge to the maneuverability of the Federation ships and the targeting of their weapons. It's likely that every shot they send out will hit an enemy craft, and fighter craft from the Empire will be very quickly destroyed. The sheer number of weapons on a Star Destroyer though can fill the sky with blasts. I think it should be noted though, that they are laser cannons, and every time on Star Trek they talk about laser cannons, they are always discussed as a step BACKWARDS in technology.
I think a half dozen Defiant-Class Heavy Escorts could fly circles around a couple Star Destroyers, even taking a bunch of lucky hits, and still take them out, or at least incapacitate them.
Consider another two things. 1. If the Empire is coming here, they aren't bringing factories with them, they come with what they have, and after a few weeks of fighting, they are out of torpedoes, with despite that website really are their heaviest weapons, and they are down to just turbolasers. We on the other hand have ships that practically build themselves. And 2. The Empire wouldn't come here JUST to bombard all the planets, they only do that when they have to teach someone a lesson. They would conquer the planets, I mean, it's what the Empire does.
In a ground war, Stormtroopers would probably outnumber Federation troops, but I think as far as weapons and defenses go they'd be more even. The Empire doesn't have transport blockers, so our troops can beam in behind their lines and catch them in a crossfire at will. A fairly major tactical disadvantage. We could also use holographic soldiers on them. On the flip side, they could use war droids on us.
And btw, I think the Enterprise-E is less than half the size of an Imp-Star II. The Enterprise-E is 680 meters long, and a Imp-Star II is 1,600 meters long. If they brought a couple Super Star Destroyers, those are 8,000 meters long. Information from the Star Trek and Star Wars Encyclopedias, that I happen to have from when I was younger and even dorkier.
Barring other ships in the fleet, the Empire at it's height built 25,000 Star Destroyers, give or take, of which each can deploy 9,700 ground troops. That results in a combat force of 242,500,000 men, and men only. Even 242.5 million men I don't think would be enough to conquer the entire Federation, especially not with the Klingons or Romulans helping out.
Another thing on Phasers vs. Turbolasers, I don't buy that phasers are a 1000 times weaker, regardless of what that site might say. If you watch the show, and read the books, for both universes, you know that even with shields down, SWU ships take heavy poundings from turbolasers and survive to fight again, whereas a state of the art STU ship can immolate an enemy vessel with a sustained phaser blast. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a phaser is a sustained beam? I don't know, but watching DS9, I have a hard time believing they are so weak, given the damage they can do. One turbolaser blast isn't going to hull a ship, whereas plasma torpedoes and phasers seem to cut through them like a hot knife through pre melted butter.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Yeah, but you guys are leaving out the considerations of shield strength, the death stars and the sith. Also Turbolasers are lasers only in name I think. If you look at the physics of the way they fire they don't act like lasers at all. So I think they are very different from the lasers they talk about in the Star Trek universe. Also a Death Star can only be destroyed by hitting the core somehow. It's shields are strong enough to survive basically any outer bombardment, save that of another Death Star's laser. Add to all this the fact that the Empire has uncountable numbers of fighters and smaller craft, many of which carry proton torpedoes and similar armaments and are fast enough that the federation ships would have a very difficult time hitting them... They'd simply over whelm them.
Also federation ships have relatively low numbers of phaser banks and those have a fair recharge time between firing. So even if they were fast, the SWU fighters are fast enough to keep up with them and could basically swarm them.
And then we have the Sith. Plus the sheer numbers of storm troops, and walkers would overwhelm the federation in relatively short time. And keep in mind, federation troops never wear armor. We don't really know what phasors would do against the storm troops armor. We know blasters a capable of blowing through pretty heavy steel bulk heads. And that's not even counting disrupters, which were illegalized, but I wouldn't put it past the Empire to undo that for their troops in a prolonged war.
My money's on the SWU to win.
Oh, and tractor beams. Each Star Destroyer has ten. Plus 60 Turbolasers (20 front, 20 left, 20 right) 60 ion cannons (20 front, 15 left, 15 right, 10 back). All they'd have to is pin the federation ships in the tractor beams one by one and blow em to smithereens.
Posted by stihl1 (Member # 1562) on :
I really don't think it would matter. SWU occurred a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. STU occurs in the future. The twain would never meet.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"The twain would never meet."
Blasphemer! Remove thine self from this thread of geeks!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Tractor beams Alcon? Have you never even SEEN Star Trek?
All they have to do is send a plasma charge back up the beam to disrupt it, or reverse the frequency of the shields, or fire an inverse tachyon beam with the deflector dish. Federation ships are practically immune to tractor beams (except the Borg maybe). If STU canon bears one thing out, it's that.
Last I checked, phasers didn't really require that much recharge time. In battle situations, they fire pretty much continuously. And if a phaser on kill can VAPORIZE a person, I have little doubt, given the temperature required to do that, that they could punch through Stormtrooper armor.
And don't count out sniper Federation troops. A thousand of them, armed with those guns from that DS9 episode with the transporter enhanced bullets could take out entire legions of Storm Troopers before the stormies even knew they were there.
Also don't forget houdinis, cloaked substance anti personnel mines could wreak havoc on them. The Federation isn't lacking in grim ruthlessness.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
The Federation posseses no Armour of any kind, no artillery, no significant ground based military force, the MACOS from ST: Enterprise are the closest to a Marine Corps I have seen.
Also, the Empire DOES have Jamming technology just because you do not have transports does not mean you cannot have the ability to jam them.
quote: The official SW2ICS quantifies the Acclamator's heavy turbolasers at 200 gigatons max per shot, and light turbolasers at 6 megatons per shot (also note that since turbolasers do not arc down in gravity and are therefore massless, the Millenium Falcon angular acceleration incident indicates light turbolaser yield of at least 3.5 megatons, and that BDZ's require high gigaton-range yield for heavy turbolasers). In comparison, the Enterprise-D would need most of its 275 photon torpedoes to destroy a hollow asteroid of 5-10km diameter; an act requiring roughly 30-180 megatons even if we disregard the fact that it's hollow (between 90 and 650 kilotons per torpedo; see the Season 7 "Pegasus" Canon Database entry for more details). However, other incidents (eg. ST6 and "Night Terrors") indicate much lower yields, and they never demonstrated this capability, so its validity rests on Riker's infallibility. In any case, 1 shot from one of an Acclamator's light guns is many times more powerful than a photon torpedo, and 1 shot from a heavy gun is equivalent to hundreds of thousands of photon torpedoes.
2The SWE describes Imperial dura-armour as a composite of neutronium and several other materials, and the SW2ICS explains that fusion bombs (presumably of low megaton yield, given light turbolaser output) can barely score an Acclamator's neutronium-impregnated hull cladding (this implies superconductivity and extremely high reflectivity). Since Federation sensors, transporters, and even phasers seem to be dependent upon exotic subspace-related effects in order to magnify their effectiveness per unit yield and are ineffective against dense materials such as actinides (to say nothing of neutronium-impregnated materials, against which they seem to be totally useless), their only useful weapons would be photon torpedoes, which use relatively brute-force explosive and thermal effects. Given that the Enterprise-D would need its entire photon torpedo payload to accomplish what Jango Fett accomplished with a single seismic charge, it seems possible and perhaps likely that a shielded Star Destroyer, with many orders of magnitude more firepower and shielding than Jango Fett's ship, could inflict massive casualties upon a Federation fleet without sustaining serious damage in return.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Also, somehwere in the site cant find it atm but it did give a STU reference that there were STU species who did infact dispite never having developed transporters jammed the Federations transporter and sensor technology on numerous occasions.
Also to quote, while it takes only a year to build a battleship it takes a century to build a naval tradition how many ships can the Federation lose before they run out of trained personnnel to fly them? Theres also the matter that fighters and gunboats from the empire capable of hyperspace travel can effectively within 24 hours cut off all communication in the federation, a commuication network that took centuries to build.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Does the Empire get Grand Admiral Thrawn? Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Also...why exactly would the Romulans help the Federation? They've basically proven they're perfectly willing to sit on the sidelines, right?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Without holonet relays, the Empire's communication is pretty much just as limited as the Federation's. Unless they plan on bringing an entire communication infrastructure with them, they'll be in trouble. The Federation has ships and planets and stations everywhere, and a much smaller area to cover, making a Federation communications network much harder to knockout, while the Empire would have nothing at all.
Also, Federation marines number in the millions, maybe even billions, it's impossible to know for sure. We saw them fight several times on DS9, but we haven't really seen them before because there's never really been a war other than the Domion War in modern STU, and the episodes have always focused on command crew officers from a ship or station. Everyone knows that Chief O'Brien was a soldier at the battle of Setlik III. The Federation has ground forces, and I'm sure they have ground emplacements and weapons to go with them.
In the Dominion War the Federation lost whole fleets to the Dominion and still perservered. Also you can't assume that the Empire would take 25,000 Star Destroyers with them. They would take an assault force, not the entire fleet. Fully half of that amount was considered to be the Core Fleet, to protect vital interest in the interstellar core to the last. The rest of those ships were out among the stars making sure there were no uprisings.
And 25,000 is the Total number built, not the amount they might actually have at any given time. Keep in mind what the Rebellion was able to pull off with a much, much, much smaller number of mostly inferior ships. To cover an entire galaxy, held in thrall, keep the peace, keep a reserve force and bring enough supplies to keep an assault force running, I think the bulk of their fleet would have to be kept in the SWU itself.
Consider an assault fleet versus the entire power of the Federation, and probably the help of at least the Klingons.
Also consider the Federation has tons of weapons they choose not to use a lot of the time, such as biogenic weapons banned by the Khitomer Accords, and Tri-Cobalt warheads. If they felt survival was at state, how long would it take to get those up and running do you think?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Also...why exactly would the Romulans help the Federation? They've basically proven they're perfectly willing to sit on the sidelines, right?
Meh so maybe they wouldn't, but it's possible. If we can convince them that the Empire is like the Dominion, they might see it in their best interest, as before, to fight alongside us. At the very least I think the Klingons would.
And if they get Grand Admiral Thrawn, we're certainly in trouble. But I'm fairly positive he'd still be in the Unknown Sectors.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think the sheer number of hyperflight capable ships that could totally destroy communications would be enough to give the edge to the Empire.
Add in the ability to kill the captain of a federation ship at range via a force choke and I think we've got a winner. Plus, I bet the Empire could infiltrate the Federation far more easily than vice-versa.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Assuming they plan ahead, I'm sure they could gather intel. But I don't see the communications destroying argument. There is not network of satelites that controls communications the way it is done in SWU. They travel ship to ship and world to world. They would have to destroy ships and worlds, rather than just taking out an antenna somewhere. Besides, the only Sith they really would be the Emperor and maybe his Hands. And maybe Vader, but if Vader is around, then so is Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. I think the risk of Force choke would be less, especially considering the Emperor would already be using his Force abilities to enhance the fleet, assuming the Emperor went along at all.
What I really want to see is the Empire vs. the Bord.
Borg - "You will be assimilated, your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile." Vader - "Resistance is not futile when you have the Force. Don't be so proud of these technological terrors you've constructed, they are irrelevant compared to the power of the Force." Borg - "The Force is irrelevant." Vader - "You don't want to assimilate us." ::Force gesture:: Borg - "We don't want to assimilate you." Vader - "We aren't the species you've been looking for." Borg - "You aren't the species we've been looking for." Vader - "We can go about our business." Borg - "You can go about your business. Move along, move along."
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote: If we can convince them that the Empire is like the Dominion, they might see it in their best interest, as before, to fight alongside us. At the very least I think the Klingons would.
If you'll recall, this 'convincing' was only accomplished in the STU via a Federation-aided assassination of a Romulan Senator and an accompanying frame-up job.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Now where was that thread where I so nicely decoded the fights between Star Wars and Star Trek characters?
I remember it ended with the doom ship of the Star Trek universe--the Borg Cube and the doom ship of the Star Wars universe--the Death Star meeting with the doom ship of the Stargate Universe--a Pyramid shaped ship--and forming an early "EA" Games logo.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote: If we can convince them that the Empire is like the Dominion, they might see it in their best interest, as before, to fight alongside us. At the very least I think the Klingons would.
If you'll recall, this 'convincing' was only accomplished in the STU via a Federation-aided assassination of a Romulan Senator and an accompanying frame-up job.
"In The Pale Moonlight" is one of my favorite episodes
That certainly helped, but there were already members of the Romulan Senate that wanted to support us. Besides, Garak is still around, there's no reason to believe we can't do it again Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: I remember it ended with the doom ship of the Star Trek universe--the Borg Cube and the doom ship of the Star Wars universe--the Death Star meeting with the doom ship of the Stargate Universe--a Pyramid shaped ship--and forming an early "EA" Games logo.
This logo? Looking that up brought back memories.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:That certainly helped, but there were already members of the Romulan Senate that wanted to support us. Besides, Garak is still around, there's no reason to believe we can't do it again
I'm afraid that Garak is only one supremely good...tailor...and the Federation quite simply lacks the enormous black bag of dirty tricks the Empire can bring to bear.
It was one of my faves too Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
While we're talking about the advantages of infantry armor in the SWU, it's worth noting that at no point in the films do we ever see someone surviving a non-physical attack due to armor. Stormtrooper armor isn't even impervious to thrown rocks.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
by Armour I mean Armoured Fighting Vehicals.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
If Starfleet uses that kick-ass dune buggy they had in Nemesis, the Storm Troopers will certainly die. Laughing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I know what you mean. And I believe they do have ground armor. I know they have ground weapons emplacements, and marines. No reason to believe they don't have ground armor.
Besides Rakeesh, the Federation has Section 31, which will seemingly do ANYTHING to achieve it's ends, it "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" is any proof. The axiom I think would prove true at the very least.
I don't know what dirty tricks the Empire has to offer. I think their biggest problem is simply logistics. I don't think it would be possible for them to bring the food, fuel, bacta, and weapons necessary to do anything more than wipe us out and go home, which the Empire would just never do. It's not their thing.
Posted by Euripides (Member # 9315) on :
quote:Borg - "You will be assimilated, your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile." Vader - "Resistance is not futile when you have the Force. Don't be so proud of these technological terrors you've constructed, they are irrelevant compared to the power of the Force." Borg - "The Force is irrelevant." Vader - "You don't want to assimilate us." ::Force gesture:: Borg - "We don't want to assimilate you." Vader - "We aren't the species you've been looking for." Borg - "You aren't the species we've been looking for." Vader - "We can go about our business." Borg - "You can go about your business. Move along, move along."
I found this incredibly funny. Does that make me a geek?
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Does the Empire get Grand Admiral Thrawn?
I'd assume so. In which case, game over. It doesn't matter what the Federation has planned; Thrawn just visits the SpaceLouvre, and bam! He's already two hundred steps ahead.
Besides, if there's one thing we know for sure about the Trek universe, it's that every species is defined by a single ludicrously over-exaggerated psychological trait. And if there's one thing Thrawn is known for, it's figuring out exactly how an alien race thinks and turning that against them in five minutes or less.
The only Star Trek folks who could conceivably match Thrawn in a duel of wits are Garak and Sisko. But the former is stymied by his dual identities: either he's a powerless tailor, or he's a secret agent who works behind the scenes. In a straight-up military conflict, neither role has a great deal to offer (although he would be better than anyone at starting a Rebellion of his own). Sisko has the brains and experience in commanding war fleets, but would be hamstrung by the bureacracy and moral dictates of Starfleet. Even assuming equal strategic brilliance, which I'm not quite sure I'm willing to grant, since Sisko *has* in fact been outwitted in the past, the time it would take just to get things moving would be time enough for Thrawn to have conquered most of the Federation.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I would love to see a duel of wits between Thrawn and Garak. I think that scene alone would be both intriguing and hysterical enough to last me for a year with no Trek. Garak has long been my favorite secondary character.
The only character I've ever seen that's as cool or calculating as Thrawn is probably Guinan.
And I doubt he would be pulled from the Unknown Sectors for such an assault. It would likely be Tarkin's attack, if Vader or the Emperor didn't personally take control of it.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Yeah, but Guinan is just Troi with a funny hat.
"You seem troubled, Grand Admiral. Have you considered relaxing with a nice cool gin and tonic? On the house. Except we use a non-monetary credit system, so that doesn't actually mean anything anymore. Oh crap, I'm dead."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Aw, Thrawn would never kill someone for no reason, I don't think. He was ruthless, not homicidal.
Besides, as an el-Auran, she was a rarity, and Thrawn certainly appreciated rarities.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Regards to science, the only note I have on that is that science of Star Wars sees to be much more static, subject to uniform maintenance and little development or innovation. Thus they would be very unsuited to dealing with any changes in that regard. Meanwhile, the Starfleet crews are masters of rapidly changing technological development and adaptation. They could throw in any number of strange developments such as nanites, computer viruses, cloaked replicating minefields, or custom-designed viruses and it would take the Empire a lot of time to adjust and adapt, if they even could. A Starfleet crew could adjust to any Imperial innovations in the time it takes for a commercial break!
One other big technological advantage which cannot be ignored is that Starfleet has the capability, the will, and repeated experience with time travel. This is a huge advantage. I do not just mean that the future Starfleet will interfere (which it most likely would as shown on Voyager several times), but they are fully capable of doing it themselves if the situation is dire enough (if only to get whales). Certainly Admiral Janeway would do it
But back to culture and politics, the big difference between the Star Wars universe and the Star Trek universe, is that while both have comparable numbers of species, Star Trek is littered with many more types of species with wildly differing technology/capability while the SWU is more of a technological mono culture and many species with very similar technology/abilities.
To expand on this idea, since we're really considering just the resources and capabilities that the Empire can draw upon versus the same from the Federation, the Empire can only really draw on two "advanced" humans, the Emperor and Vader (assuming we're talking ST:ANH era). Given Star Trek sensor capabilities, it probably wouldn't even take long to identify and counter-act the mitochondrians required for force-sensitivity) Any other Jedi are either dead or unfriendly and unlikely to help. Meanwhile, the Federation can draw upon many entities which while individually are unlikely to help, only one would be required to make a huge difference.
God-like entities would include the Prophets (unlikely to interfere, but they have the Sisko now), the Organians (not sure where they are now), Q (practically would take orders from Janeway).
Other helpful suspects are the Probe (in ST:IV) (which could shut down entire fleets if Vader so much as touched a whale ), the Changelings (who we would have pull with through Odo), or even the Xindi which would have world destroyers as early as Enterprise but much smaller than the Death Star.
Meanwhile, the Empire is a technological monoculture and their ally species do not really add any useful capabilities.
The last point, and potentially the most important in any conflict between rival universes is that the original Star Wars trilogy only has about 10 main cast characters at most, and only two that would fight with the Empire (and both die good ). Star Trek would have three full starship/station casts worth, most of whom will never die, or even if they do would immediately come back to life in spectacular circumstances.
In short the Federation would really have zero difficulty with the Imperials. A much closer comparison would be the Empire versus the Babylon 5 Interstellar Alliance or the Firefly Alliance which both would be much closer in species and technology to the Empire.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What about the Empire vs. the Goa'uld?
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Empire. No question what so ever.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
The more I think about it, the major deal breaker is time travel. Star Wars has none, Star Trek is littered with it and Starfleet is the master of it.
Voyager was always watched over by 29th century timeships. Even Enterprise was watched over by Daniels and time travellers from the 31st century.
Kirk can go back in time to rescue *whales* and get a cute girl at the same time. Anakin can barely get a word out during his seduction (singular), it just does not compare.
At the end of the day, you even have Admiral Janeway who is willing to bring back both technology and knowledge, in effect cancelling out almost an entire series worth of effort. How do you mess with a time travelling woman like that (unless you can seduce her with Kirk)?
Screw Thrawn, its crazy woman Janeway that scares me.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: What about the Empire vs. the Goa'uld?
Assuming we're talking the Gou'uld either at the beginning of the series or unified under Baal or Anubis, that would be closer too. In fact, in terms of capabilities they'd be almost equal. Both have underlings that can't shoot worth a damn. Both have leaders with God complexes and the wealth of Goa'uld stolen technology should more than match two guys with the Force.
Ascension might be a deal-breaker in the case of Anubis though.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think the modern New Republic or Galactic Alliance would have a better shot at taking out the Federation. More Jedi, more advanced weapons, could borrow a couple of Vong Worldships.
I think that if push came to shove, the USS Relativity or the USS Premonition would pay a visit to the Federation to warn them and arm them in case of an attack.
Federation all the way.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
I agree with the votes for the Federation. I'm not nearly as well versed in either universe as some of you (which is to say I've watched most of the first four ST series, and the 6 SW movies, but I haven't seen every single episode of ST or read any books for either Universe)... but, it seems to me that the dealbreaker is simply the Federations technology. They have so much of it. Star Wars is more a hodgepodge of high and low tech, whereas ST is universally very high tech. Tom and Lyrhawn have the right of it, especially when it comes to personal combat.
What's to stop Starfleet from transporting an army of holographic soldiers into each star destroyer? These holographic soldiers would be armed with phasers, set on kill, and would proceed to vaporize everything on the ship. Would the Federation even suffer any casualties?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Lets take a look at a strict comparison of one main fighting force for each side.
Fierce Wookies and Fierce Klingons.
Wookies are known to rip the arms off of opponents who beat them at simple games of strategy.
For Klingons, ripping off of opponents arms and beating them to death with those arms is a simple game of strategy.
Wookies, despite their fierce size and demeanor are still cute. One gets the urge to just squeeze and cuddle them.
Nobody cuddles with a Klingon. Century long blood feuds have begun when someone called a Klingon "cute." They are, you must admit, "hot!".
Wookies growl and yell.
Klingons sing Opera, and they sing it well! (Despite comparisons to Vogon poetry)
Has any Wookie in any of the main movies actually been able to hit anyone with those crossbows?
Klingons rarely miss, unless aiming at a main character or it would be a plot important point.
So you see--Klingons would basically use the Wookies as throw rugs in front of the fireplace, useful for violent satisfying encounters with the opposite sex. Hey, don't spill anything on my Chewbacca.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Plus Wookies would never fight in the Empire's army to begin with. They'd never want to, and never be allowed to.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Yeah, like that would stop the Klingons from hunting them.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So the Klingons are going to fly to the SWU to hunt the Wookies down?
Sounds more like the Hirogen.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I thought I was a nerd, but it seems I can't compare to all you guys.
Thanks for that boost to my self esteem!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I agree, if the Empire gets Thrawn, no questions the game goes to the Empire. Thrawn and Garak in a battle of wits would be entertaining (and hilarious! ), but once the two got the measure of each other, I'm afraid it's Thrawn all the way once more. Thrawn has an ability to learn, adapt, remember, and think very likely in excess of Julian Bashir, after all.
Thrawn vs. Sisko? No contest whatsoever, although Sisko would put up a better fight than nearly anyone in the Federation. Even Sisko's wild card of the Prophets wouldn't help, unless the Empire needed to travel through the wormhole.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Between Thrawn and the Sith, the Empire pretty much has it sewn up. Even the time travel advantage would evaporate after one use... any Sith Lord would have no trouble ripping the knowledge of time travel out of a hapless Starfleet captain's mind from a distance. Once the Imperials have the ability to time travel, all hope for the Federation is lost. If taken to its logical conclusion, time travel essentially means you have access to the combined military might of every single thing ever built in your respective 'verse. And the SWU has a *lot* more technologically-advanced history, spanning a *lot* more territory. The initial numerical advantage the Empire has will be nothing compared to what happens when they can start siphoning ships and Sith troops from Darth Revan's fleet. Who needs replicators when you have a Star Forge capable of replicating entire starships on command?
Posted by orlox (Member # 2392) on :
Star Wars is not only a galaxy far, far away. Its is also long ago. This establishes relativistic inertial reference frames for both galaxies. Causality and the laws of physics would not survive even a two-way communications link across time, let alone a portal permitting trans-time matter transmission.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Seems the empire for me is more then a formidable opponent.
You all seem to forget that the events of Star Wars take place a long time ago in a galaxy far away. With the books as a guide their rate of technological advancement is quite great. The Federation is a product of our future. If the federation is encountering The Empire then its one maybe two star ships traveling to the past to face them as transporting the entire federation is out of the question. Or else its The Federation encountering The Empire centuries, perhaps even millennia later in which case who knows what sorts of amazing technological feats The Empire has performed. Not to mention developments in the Force related arts.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Tarrsk: You don't really understand the nature of time travel. In the STU, Starfleet has a *known* future spanning the 29th century with timeships including Lyr's USS Relativity or the USS Premonition and the 31st century with Daniel's and his associates in the temporal cold war. In the STU, the Empire pretty much ends with the Emperor and Vader, with a resurgence under Thrawn.
What this means, is that once the Empire crosses over the threshold with Vader or the Emperor, they have to deal with the combined might of the Federation up to at least the 31st century and beyond. However, the Empire has no help from the future.
Even if either could rip the knowledge of time travel across a distance (which neither have demonstrated, otherwise they would have known about the Rebel plan in SW:ROTJ to destroy the Death Star with the help of Ewoks and flying into the Death Star) any random Starfleet captain would not understand the details of time travel.
It would take the knowledge of a Janeway or Archer to even give away the existence of the future Starfleet, and neither would have solutions for dealing with them.
The further problem is that ripping knowledge is no substitute for understanding time travel. Starfleet would have knowledge and understanding in spades. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway all have had experience in altering history through time travel. Their future counterparts are even more experienced, having fought a temporal cold war over the course of an entire series.
Th level of sophistication simply does not compare.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
BlackBlade: Not so much. The Empire ends with Vader, the Emperor, and Thrawn. What remains is just a pitiful remnant. Millennia of development cannot help a dead Empire, it could help the New Republic, but they're not the ones we're concerned with.
From Knights of the Old Republic, we know that STU technology has essentially stagnated for more than 4000 years up to the development of the Empire, the only real development being the Death Star. In the case of Starfleet, they have developed from "us" to Janeway's time in only 300 or so years. Thats about only 8% of the time to get to a place much more advanced and who can dream what technological wonders a 31st century Starfleet would understand?
The only faster development in a mainstream TV series that comes to mind is Stargate SG-1 where we develop from "us" to time travel (although not remotely as sophisticated) and ascension in only ten years.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I almost had to hand in my nerd card after reading this thread BUT I HAVE AN OUT
quote:Romulan Warbird, while maintaining the transphase-cloak returned to them by the federation, detects entire empire fleet using tachyon whatevers.
It idly floats around (and even sometimes within) each major ship in the fleet and every death star or whatever, casually teleporting timed plasma torpedoes to points within the hulls of each enemy ship.
Within minutes, they just have to sit back and watch everything explode.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
remember the Empire has sophisticated jamming technologies and would so heavly flood the area with ECM that you wouldnt be able to teleport squat.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
The empire only has 'sophisticated' jamming technologies from an internal canon perspective. The technology from Star Trek has always always ALWAYS taken absurdly more liberties with reality in all but a select few categories.
The empire does not have anti-teleportation technology. They have never faced it before, and they're squaring off against races that have designed fantasy devices that have the power to overcome all but the most temperamental environmental interference, etc etc.
This discussion has actually been had before. A single shuttlecraft with multiphasic cloak can take out the death star and/or stars
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
Even if the Empire has planetary destruction capability, mind-reading, and the Force...anybody whose security can be breached by teddy bear people, is no threat at all.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:Even if the Empire has planetary destruction capability, mind-reading, and the Force...anybody whose security can be breached by teddy bear people, is no threat at all.
He has a point...
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Didn't the empire get it's butt handed to it by a single Jedi in training and a ragtag bunch of rebels without a stationary base or real funding?
Thrawn wasn't as tough as he though he was either, if I remember correctly.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I'm sure I'm going to lose some geek cred over this, but...who's Thrawn? I don't remember any Thrawn in Star Wars.
I'm biased, but my money would be on the Federation. Apart from the speed of the Empire's ships, their technology seems to be more advanced, in general. I highly doubt that even a larger group (say, 100) of force-users would really help the empire that much. The massacre of the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith clearly demonstrates that one force-user is no match for a bunch of stormtroopers with guns. And keep in mind that the underlings in the Star Trek universe are much more effective than those in Star Wars. Sure, you could force-choke the captain of a starship (can you do that at a distance, without actually being able to see the person in question?). But then the first officer would just take over and kick your butt. You'd have to force-choke your way down the chain of command, by which point some lowly expendable ensign would have figured out how to kill you.
Posted by 0Megabyte (Member # 8624) on :
Thrawn is the admiral leading the Imperial Fleet during the Heir to the Empire trilogy of books, that take place about a half dozen years or so after RotJ.
Actually, he was pretty darn good. The only real reason he lost was because, of course, even a tactical genius, if they have no idea of something, can't act on it. And he was killed early in the final battle of that series, so though he would have won that fight, he wasn't around, and his subordinate Captain whatever his name was wasn't good enough to win.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: And keep in mind that the underlings in the Star Trek universe are much more effective than those in Star Wars. Sure, you could force-choke the captain of a starship (can you do that at a distance, without actually being able to see the person in question?). But then the first officer would just take over and kick your butt. You'd have to force-choke your way down the chain of command, by which point some lowly expendable ensign would have figured out how to kill you.
And his (or her) last name would probably be (pick one (or more, in which case, please refer to this thread) of the following): Kirk, Picard, Riker, Crusher, Janeway, or maybe Sulu.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I still think the federation would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. 150 ships against 25000? Doesn't matter how much better your tech is, you can't fire fast enough to win that fight!
But here's another thought, who'd win, the New Republic (after Luke's jedi come in to their own) or the Federation? Even though, in reality, they'd be much more likely to join forces.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Going by what they could do, not what they would find morally acceptable, the Jedi could totally infiltrate the Federation before opening hostilities, and it would be over. They could have a ship with all technology and records needed to start production on their own, plus billions of planets of resources for building them. They could start a Klingon-Federation-Romulan-Cardassian four-way war within a year. They could fire up the Spaarti Cylinders and have an army of clones ready to go after training on the ship for a few years. The possibilities of a large number of Jedi lacking moral strictures are too numerous to contemplate.
And Jedi + transporter = major can of whup-a%$.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Your post, Dag, made me wonder if a lightsaber can deflect phasers. Anyone have any ideas?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The only thing I'm aware of a lightsaber not deflecting was the ionized beam in the Srii-Ruk paddle-beamers that paralyzed humans for entenchment.
I'd bet they would - they are particle weapons, not light weapons, and they are deflected by shields.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: Your post, Dag, made me wonder if a lightsaber can deflect phasers. Anyone have any ideas?
I'm not sure.
Here, have a lightsaber. Let us know how it goes!
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I don't know if handing me a lightsaber is a good idea. Knowing my clumsiness, I'd either destroy myself with it or start some kind of war (accidently of course). Dag's explanation makes sense though for my question.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Going by what they could do, not what they would find morally acceptable, the Jedi could totally infiltrate the Federation before opening hostilities, and it would be over. They could have a ship with all technology and records needed to start production on their own, plus billions of planets of resources for building them. They could start a Klingon-Federation-Romulan-Cardassian four-way war within a year. They could fire up the Spaarti Cylinders and have an army of clones ready to go after training on the ship for a few years. The possibilities of a large number of Jedi lacking moral strictures are too numerous to contemplate.\
I like your angle and it appears to involve jedi mind manipulation to a great extent. I'm assuming, anyway.
Thing is, Trek had the mental powers thing pretty covered, too. A whole planet of people who can mind-read with perfect clarity, among other things!
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Star Destoryers have their armour described as being composed very much of solid neutonium, if I remember correctly the Federation has great trouble with anything made by the stuff.
Next, the Federation HAS FOR A FACT delt with peoples who have NEVER EVER ONCE developed or even SEEN transporter technology and yet could jam it fairly easily. Do you realize JUST HOW MANY times transports have been rendered unusable in STU from just some wierd energy phenomenon alone?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You could argue that it's survival of the fittest. Given the number of weird energy phenomena that the STU has had to deal with on a regular basis, merely coping with some conscripted Imperial troops is a walk in the park. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Thing is, Trek had the mental powers thing pretty covered, too. A whole planet of people who can mind-read with perfect clarity, among other things!
As soon as they find out about this, a visit from the Sun Crusher II will take care of most of them. Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I'll see your Jedi infiltrators and raise you:
-Betazoids (Though given the fact that infiltrations of Starfleet have worked before, clearly they don't have Betazoids hanging around listening in on the top brass's thoughts. An oversight, or does the Federation have privacy laws regarding telepathy?) -Periodic blood tests for midichlorians (much like the changling-detection tests) -Heck, setting transporter biofilters for midichlorians...oops, there go your superpowers. -Vulcans (I'd like to see a Jedi try a mind trick on one of them) -No guarantees that force powers even work in the Star Trek universe.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Alcon: I still think the federation would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. 150 ships against 25000? Doesn't matter how much better your tech is, you can't fire fast enough to win that fight!
Those numbers are wildly, WILDLY skewed. Federation fleets, per the Dominion Wars, had like a thousand ships in them. And there were at least nine fleets. And the Empire built 25,000 Star Destroyers TOTAL, that isn't just their assault force. Considering even that wasn't enough to beat a ragtag, I don't know how you can believe that they'd be able to take their ENTIRE fleet with them and still have an Empire to come back to. They'd have to leave a large number of them back for peacekeeping, and even if they managed to bring 10,000 of them, which I think is still an outlandish number for the size and volatility of the SWU, they're still about even with the Federation, and that doesn't include help from other species.
Blayne -
What episode was it where the species with no knowledge of transporters jammed our transporters? And you really think that would last forever? Star Trek gets the bump in engineering way over and above the Empire. Give it a day or two and they'll have that jamming problem figured out faster than you can say "change the polarization of the tachyon emitter!"
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I do think that the Empire would be at a disadvantage as an attacking force. On the other hand, I'm not sure the Federation would fare all that well if it tried to conquer the Empire. Particularly since conquest by force isn't really the Federation's thing.
The Borg, on the other hand...
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Lets compare the main forces:
storm troopers vs red shirts.
Both die often. Neither are known for marksmanship. Neither are known for tactical thinking in a war zone.
1) Training (Star Fleet Training supposedly allows only the best to make it to even the Red Shirt level.) 2) Transporters instead of At-Ats. The ultimate in troop mobility. 3) Lighter, less bulky clothing makes movement easier and improves visibility.
I still think this goes to Federation.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:1) Training (Star Fleet Training supposedly allows only the best to make it to even the Red Shirt level.)
RED SHIRT FINAL RATING EXAM
WARNING: ONLY 100% TEST SCORES WILL BE PERMITTED INTO THE REDSHIRTS
Please circle all answers in ink.
Question 1:
Do you have a pulse?
a) Yes b) No c) Nope d) Not at all
End of test -- Submit to SFA for grading.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Give the Stormies some credit, the first time we ever saw them they were mowing down Rebels like it was going out of style on Tantive IV.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm afraid I'd stack up Darth Vader against, like, 100 Betazoids six days a week and twice on Sundays. The one and only time I remember the only Betazoid we ever really get a good look at, Troi, getting cowboyed up in TNG was...umm....was...
And then there was in Nemesis when she had to be mind-raped to use her powers in an aggressive fashion. Darth Vader, or especially Palpatine, would go through them like Germans through Poland.
As for Vulcans, well they'd probably be more difficult to manipulate...but they do have emotions that, once tapped and 'engaged' are extremely passionate.
Midichlorians? Never heard of `em!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I love Hatrack. This thread, theorizing on the nature of gender, Icy Hot and cats, and abortion on the front page at the same time.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
also remeber Star Trek shi[s are TIN CANS they have no real hull armour, heck ramming is even an effective tactic usign small jem hadar ships vs fully shielded undamaged Klingon ships ramming is not a viable tactic in the SWU, several SD rammed the Executor and it did nothing to it.
Also your all going the pansy STU fanfic route where small heavily armed commando team is somehow to miracusuly win the day every single time.
GO by cannon, go by the tech manuals, and go by solid miltiary tactics and stragy and not the Q will snap his fingers arguement.
next Ill requote
quote: The official SW2ICS quantifies the Acclamator's heavy turbolasers at 200 gigatons max per shot, and light turbolasers at 6 megatons per shot (also note that since turbolasers do not arc down in gravity and are therefore massless, the Millenium Falcon angular acceleration incident indicates light turbolaser yield of at least 3.5 megatons, and that BDZ's require high gigaton-range yield for heavy turbolasers). In comparison, the Enterprise-D would need most of its 275 photon torpedoes to destroy a hollow asteroid of 5-10km diameter; an act requiring roughly 30-180 megatons even if we disregard the fact that it's hollow (between 90 and 650 kilotons per torpedo; see the Season 7 "Pegasus" Canon Database entry for more details). However, other incidents (eg. ST6 and "Night Terrors") indicate much lower yields, and they never demonstrated this capability, so its validity rests on Riker's infallibility. In any case, 1 shot from one of an Acclamator's light guns is many times more powerful than a photon torpedo, and 1 shot from a heavy gun is equivalent to hundreds of thousands of photon torpedoes.
Also according to the STU tech manuals nearly any radiation and subspace interfearance will jam a transporter, jamming it is reaosnably easy thing to do and happens often, in DS9 transporters were nearly impossible to use in most combat enviroments due to jamming. The episode is on that site somewhere Im looking for it.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote: Fortunately, transporters are easy to disrupt. Deflector shields, ambient radiation, and even weak magnetic fields (as seen on the prison asteroid in ST6) can easily prevent transportation. The Federation will therefore be unable to board our starships in combat, unless they somehow manage to cause a shield failure, perhaps by combining phasers and torpedoes from numerous starships. Even if that occurs, sensor-jamming equipment can render transport virtually impossible by keeping the transporter operators from being able to find safe destinations for their troops.
Tactics
The Federation will not be able to capture any of our starships unless they are in a virtual derelict condition. Their tactics are unremarkable (as seen in "Way of the Warrior" when they simply positioned themselves in random locations and used line-of-sight weapons to attack boarders), and they simply don't carry enough troopers to successfully board an Imperial vessel. A typical Federation starship carries less than 100 troopers but an Imperial Star Destroyer carries thousands of stormtroopers.
Conclusion
In the unlikely event of momentary shield failure, our stormtrooper divisions should be made aware that Federation troops may appear on the ship at random locations. Tactics must be adjusted to deal with this possibility, so we cannot assume the boarders will enter through hatchways or hull breaches. Stormtroopers should take up defensive positions around critical portions of the ship, and use nerve-gas grenades upon first sight of any Federation boarders. The Federation troopers should fall easily to nerve-gas grenades thanks to their lack of environmental protection suits, and stormtrooper armour protects its wearers from nerve gas.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
also a link on the comparrison between SWU and STU ship tactics.
Depends on what part of the story line you're talking about. Voyager with advanced ablative hull armor from the future was certainly not just a simple tin can. The Defiant class ships have at least a foot of ablative hull armor on them, in addition to heavily reinforced shields. And those aren't even the newest ships in the fleet.
I don't know when you last watched Star Wars, but ZERO Star Destroyers rammed the Executor. It was hit in the bridge by an A-Wing and subsequently lost control, crashing into the Death Star. I've yet to read the book that says that happened. And I've read SW canon, if you consider the EU to be so, that says SD sized ships ramming planetary defense shields has caused them to fail. Ramming still seems fairly useful.
Since when do Stormies carry nerve gas grenades? And what fanfic gibberish are you talking about?
Edit to add: Upon further reading of the page you linked, it seems to ENTIRELY ignore the EU.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Jorus C'Baoth, now on the dark side and inflamed with anger over the deaths of his Jedi companions, tried to force choke Thrawn.
You can infact force choke from a distance, in this case the distance between 2 star ships.
Actually unless there is someother place where it is mentionned it does use the EU as well seeing as how it also makes significant references to the "New Republic" and Vong worldships. There are other pages in that site.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:also remeber Star Trek shi[s are TIN CANS they have no real hull armour, heck ramming is even an effective tactic usign small jem hadar ships vs fully shielded undamaged Klingon ships ramming is not a viable tactic in the SWU, several SD rammed the Executor and it did nothing to it.
Also your all going the pansy STU fanfic route where small heavily armed commando team is somehow to miracusuly win the day every single time.
GO by cannon, go by the tech manuals, and go by solid miltiary tactics and stragy and not the Q will snap his fingers arguement.
next Ill requote
Slow dowwwwnnnn.
edit your posts. you're going into an incomprehensible nerd frenzy.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
heres also the part fo the site of real combat, fanfic combat, and what the DS9 writers combat.
quote:Jorus C'Baoth, now on the dark side and inflamed with anger over the deaths of his Jedi companions, tried to force choke Thrawn.
You can infact force choke from a distance, in this case the distance between 2 star ships.
Actually unless there is someother place where it is mentionned it does use the EU as well seeing as how it also makes significant references to the "New Republic" and Vong worldships. There are other pages in that site.
Apologies then, they don't ignore the EU, they just don't know what they are talking about.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
How so, you say that they do not know what they are talking about but I do not see anything to the contrary.
Strategic evaluation of the empire in comparrison to the Federation.
quote:Three ISD's accidentally rammed the Executor while decelerating from hyperspace (ref: SWE), but they merely exploded against its shields.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Okay in nearly every ship combat scenario between a STU ship and another ship the MOMENT shields are down the ship's destruction is emminent, in SWU when shields are down the hull can still take significant punishment. Also neutonium, phasors are practically useless against the stuff and a solid composite of the stuff would require you use a hell of alot of torps on it, if ISDs can take and deal damage from heavy turbolasers from equivilent ships evenw ith shields down how long would a Fed ship last?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
They say that Proton torpedoes are relatively underpowered, yet time and time again it is a proton torpedo barrage that destroys the enemy vessel. We know that Capital Ships have large batteries of proton torpedo launchers and that they are used on ship to ship combat.
We know they do enter combat in formations, very much so similar to how ships of the line fought back in the day, and that those formations respond to commands from the commander of the fleet.
If the worldships they are talking about include the Corellian System, then they don't know what they are talking about. Corellia's world's used repulsors, basically giant tractor beams, to yank M-Class planets from around the galaxy. Other than that, and some rather large space stations, no one in the Empire ever built a "worldship."
The Republic didn't build Centerpoint. As a matter of fact, until the Killik Wars, they weren't sure who built them at all. Also note that in a war, they can't take that communications network with them.
Technically, the reign of Palpatine as Supreme Chancellor and his abuses of power was never called a New Republic of any sort. The New Republic wasn't formed officially until far after Palpatine's death and the conquest of Coruscant.
Considering Martok is the Chancellor of the Klingon Empire, and the extremely good relations between him and the Federation, I think there's a very, very good chance that they would join us. No Klingon would be left out of battle like that. And oh god I'm not going near the rest of this.
They are talking about a height of the Empire vs. Star Trek post Votager situation. Given the technology Janeway brought back with her, and other advantages, coupled with a REALISTIC attack from the Empire the Federation would suffer substantial casualties but hold their own.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Okay in nearly every ship combat scenario between a STU ship and another ship the MOMENT shields are down the ship's destruction is emminent, in SWU when shields are down the hull can still take significant punishment. Also neutonium, phasors are practically useless against the stuff and a solid composite of the stuff would require you use a hell of alot of torps on it, if ISDs can take and deal damage from heavy turbolasers from equivilent ships evenw ith shields down how long would a Fed ship last?
Untrue. I've seen several, several encounters where Federation and other ships have lasted quite some time with their shields down.
And how long do you really think it would take the Federation to get their hands on a proton torpedo? Our manufacturing capabilities have an advantage theirs don't: Replication. We could make legions of the damned things. They have to build them in factories.
We lost a fleet to the Breen and came back stronger than ever after realizing the mistakes we made. I have little doubt that the weapons inequalities would be swiftly remedied. Besides, a transphasic torpedo can take out a Borg TACTICAL Cube with one shot. A Borg cube DWARFS the Enterprise-E which is about half the length of an ISD. I have no trouble believing a single torp could take out an ISD.
And as for the Executor quote, yes, thank you for repeating what I've already seen, but I've never read that anywhere. Not saying it isn't necessarily true, it's just not in any book I've read recently.
Edit to add: And though it may seem like I crossed that line a long, long time ago, I just realized I'm taking this Waaaaaaay too seriously. ::Bows out::
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
Meh. Dark Lords of the Sith kill pretty much everyone. They take stars in a binary system and crush people between them. Seriously.
Also, Nogrhi rock.
Seeing as how both Star Destroyers and the Stars themselves have been moved using the force, having someone force-choke someone (or otherwise slay them outright) from a great distance is not at all implausible, I'm surprised that's even an issue.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
o_O I can't believe this discussion almost made 3 pages! I'm tempted to bump it a few times just to make it get there... Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
Best. Thread. Ever.
I love major geekdom.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
On lightsabers deflecting phasers... Do keep in mind that SWU lasers are effectively projectiles, and slow moving ones at that. It'll be near impossible to deflect a constantly active phaser beam, especially when it's in the hands of one who'd be more than happy to move it around.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Most of the StarWars stuff in the "StarWars vs StarTrek" website is made up outta nothin'. The only canon for StarWars is the original book and the two trilogies. And the StarWars movies clearly show that even the positing of "megaton lasers" is pure unadulterated hogwash.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:The only canon for StarWars is the original book and the two trilogies.
No it's not. I'm choosing to ignore some of the stupid decisions Lucas made, damnit.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:also remeber Star Trek ships are TIN CANS they have no real hull armour
Nor do they need any. Without shields, transporters can literally rip them apart. It is unnecessary for Federation assault teams to board a SWU vessel; they can simply beam torpedoes onto the ship and/or beam bits of the ship into space.
That's at least one of the reasons that STU is all about shields; armor is worthless when you have literally limitless control over matter.
Your source, in other words, is laughably biased. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I am prtty sure that the writers of STU and Lucas for the SWU not only probly contributed to their respective Encylopedias (like how Bungie compiled the Halo Encylopedia) but probly gave them their blessing as well.
Next the manufacturing capabilities of the SWU are obviously greater on an order of several magnitude, not only does the SWU emply entire WORLDS dedicated for manufacturing production and automated at that. The Trade Federation could strip mine a world of all of its strategic resources in a matter of months and the Empire had over 12,000,000 worlds incorperated into it, the Feds had what? 120? Next theirs also the matter of ships. the TOTAL mostrecent shipcount of Starfleet is 7200, a number that includes fighters, runabouts, and shuttles in its ship counts. Next DS9 throughout the entire Dominion war built 163-180 Galaxy Class starships as it was the lead frontline ship during the entire war, they simply built the hull, gave it crew quarts, a scavenged warp core, shields, weapons and rushed it to combat.
Replicators do not work for capitol ships, the Soveriegn-Class starships take I think somewhere between 3-7 years to build according to the technical manuals. The Feds as such according to the manuals and the series would imply that they do not have the capability to use replication technology for assemling star ships, I take the fact that throughout the entire Dominion War they displayed no ability to do so despite the desparation of the war.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Blayne, are you seriously suggesting that the Empire could bring a significant portion of its manufacturing strength to bear against the Federation without losing control of the galaxy?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The Empire would have transporter technology in about a month after first encountering it and would know how to jam it soon after.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
A scenario is a Fed ship tried to capture a ISD.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
thanks Dag, also they dont even need to focus it, they could send 100 ISDs (over 9000 ships by Federation standards of ship totals since it includes fighters and other small craft) and if they really needed muscle hire several mercionary fleet. If BlackSun a simple shipping company was able to provide all the logistics needed to build the death star in under a year in secret theyre are probly plenty of other shipping companies with significant military capabilities.
Next back to the Feds ground forces, aside from shuttles and runabouts, the Feds do not have AFVs, when Admiral Leyton ordered military mobilization it consisted of putting a single soldier on every street corner, wheres the APCs patrolling the streets? Aside from a small complement of Marines on each starship do not possess a armed forces on the same level of the Empire, heck the Romulans thought that 2000 foot soldiers would be enough to take over Vulcan. I onder why....
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm still amazed at how cavalierly that site dismisses the absolute impossibility of fighting a relativistic ship. Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Warp strafing even according to Starfleet accounts in unfeesible against anything but the most primitive of spare faring ships, it onyl worked for the Stargazer because the Ferengi ship lacked proper sensors, how long before the Imperials reverse engineer these sensors (assuming they dont already have any) from a derelect starship? All they need to do is capture ONE runabout one of any ship from ay species in the Alpha quadrant to get that technology.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Are we simply assuming that both groups are going to steal each other's technology, here, within the timeframe of the war? Because I am not even remotely confident in the Empire's ability to comprehend Federation technology, given the slow pace of technological progress in the SWU.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I dont know about that, between EP3 and EP4 the Empire made soem pretty nifty advances in starship design, there is advancement and innovation just nothing that we really notice in the books/movies.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:between EP3 and EP4 the Empire made soem pretty nifty advances in starship design
You mean they made their ships boxier and gave them analog controls? Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Are we simply assuming that both groups are going to steal each other's technology, here, within the timeframe of the war? Because I am not even remotely confident in the Empire's ability to comprehend Federation technology, given the slow pace of technological progress in the SWU.
True enough...but even one thoroughly Force-brainwashed Chief Engineer would go a long way to quickly negating that problem. Of course, it would take decades before the Empire could implement the knowledge throughout its military, but much less time for it to implement the knowledge.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Are we simply assuming that both groups are going to steal each other's technology, here, within the timeframe of the war? Because I am not even remotely confident in the Empire's ability to comprehend Federation technology, given the slow pace of technological progress in the SWU.
A few jedi mind tricks on some engineers, scientists, and I think federation folks would be more then happy to do the work of copying it for The Empire. Also I am confident your everyday astromech droid could find some way to plug into federation consoles and translate everything into *beeps* and *whoops* that The Empire would understand.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, it's also worth noting that the Empire is not exactly full of Force users.
I'll give you the droid tech point, though; droid technology and the hyperdrive are the two techs the STU would want from the SWU. For some reason, even though the STU is clearly able to manufacture sentient droids, each one is a labor of love rather than mass-produced.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Although you know, just one replication system would go a long way to catching the Empire up.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
By that logic, one Star Destroyer would do the same thing for the STU.
Again, though, the problem for the Empire is this: short of overwhelming the Federation with numbers, they simply don't have the ability to compete in space. They have strategic superiority and an extreme level of tactical inferiority.
Now, as has been pointed out, this tactical inferiority is due to the truly ridiculous tech levels of the Federation, rather than any specific tactical skill applied on the Federation's behalf. (Despite it, in fact. Of course, the SWU isn't known for its tactical ability, either.) So the smartest thing the Empire could do is get their hands on some Federation officers, especially engineers. Assuming that the Empire's torturers are better at getting information from STU officers than they are at getting information from rebels, we're looking at about two to three years to technological equivalence -- assuming they start with the holodeck and replicator and work from there. At that point, the Empire wins, no contest.
And then someone from the STU travels back in time to when the Emperor is being born in a ditch somewhere, drops a photon torpedo on his mother, and flies away. Probably feeling slightly guilty.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
quote:I'm still amazed at how cavalierly that site dismisses the absolute impossibility of fighting a relativistic ship. [Smile]
I think you give way to much credit to relativistic fighting. It doesn't take much to track a ship, even one flying at relativistic speeds and lead it. The Empire doesn't have to be able to keep up with a federation ship in warp strafing to blow it out of the sky. It just has to be able to see it coming, lead it to a couple of points and open up enough of a fire barrage to completely blow it out of the sky.
And I'd bet the Empire's sensor equipment is good enough to do that even with out stealing federation technology.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
Ah, but what if the Federation enlists the help of Unicron???!!! Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Federation = Good Guys Empire = Bad Guys
Need I say more? It doesn't matter who has a technological advantage. The fact of the matter is that the Federation is good and the good guys always win. The writers would carve out a win, come hell or high water.
From an in-universe perspective, why have we ignored the rebellion? I'm sure, once they were given a lesson in Galactic history, the Federation would team up with the rebellion (which would give them some force-users of their own). The Federation would then have access to Galactic technology, which they would be able to adapt into their own.
And another thing, why are we discussing the Empire's weapons as if they were in any way accurate. They couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with any given turbo laser or blaster or anything else.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:And another thing, why are we discussing the Empire's weapons as if they were in any way accurate. They couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with any given turbo laser or blaster or anything else.
Well...
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Well what? The Federation STU guys have a significantly higher accuracy percentage, which gets back to the good guys vs. bad guys argument. In fact, if the shot will decide the outcome of the battle, the Federation's accuracy rating jumps to 100%. Vader couldn't even hit Luke in the Death Star trench with his (then) advanced Tie Fighter because of the always tear-jerking, timely arrival of Han Solo, and even then it took him several minutes of dialog to lock on with his supposedly powerful and advanced Imperial technology.
The Empire just doesn't cut it where it counts- in the climax.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I see several problems with this discussion. One big problem is that the sources I'm using for Star Wars are the original and newer trilogies. I only make an exception for the Thrawn trilogy and KOTOR because well, they're cool. The inherent problem with introducing more elements from the SW:EU is that the ST:EU is even more crazy. With hundreds of books spanning the time with the original Star Trek went off the air till now, there have been ridiculous numbers of species and technology over the years, much of it inconsistent. Keep in mind that Star Wars has the same problem with the Droids and Ewoks cartoons, plus the Star Wars Holiday special.
In any case, the further problem is that the Star Wars universe does *not have time travel.* Therefore, any conflict involving the Empire only includes two force users, any conflict involving Thrawn does not have "thousands of planets" since Thrawn never dominated the galaxy like the Empire did. Anything further in the timeline would only use the small little Imperial Remnant. However, the Federation *does* have time travel.
In canon, Starfleet has used time travel in two movies to change the future, one whole series was ended by the use of time travel, and another series included the use of a temporal cold war between time travelling agents.
In light of this, the comments on this page about conflict times lasting in months or years, sound absurd. Production capability is irrelevant to an amazing degree. I can start to understand how DS9's Prophets were so confused by the concept of linear time reading posts full of these conventional tactics.
In reality, we know that that Federation lasts at least till the 31st century. Any attack on the 24th century Starfleet would change the time line and be instantly detected. It would be dealt with by the time travellers from the 31st century to preserve the timeline, faster than you can say....well anything. Thats how time travel works. They could send back an agent and kill that little annoying kid Anakin before the conflict even started. Or they could just nudge her mother in just the right way so that she's not even born, perhaps even seducing her with Kirk.
In fact, the way time travel works in ST, not only can they do it, but they already have done it, and will have to do it in order to preserve the timeline.
Thats the trump card, that Dag's Jedi infiltrators (not that the Empire has more than Vader and the Emperor...neither of which can exactly go incognito), Sun Crushers (which are after the Empire), large fleets, Force powers, or anything can handle.
The big thing about time travel is that its not even required to go to the ST:EU to find it, its ingrained into the series and movies to a hideous degree.
From a story-telling perspective, I hated it because it made the Federation nigh-invincible and the Earth indestructible despite how many Earth-threatening events there have been. However, in light of a conflict...please.
These posts are like reading about Napoleonic-era generals bragging how their cannonballs can rip through F-22s. (Hint: they actually can, but why is this not relevant? There's your answer for why Star Trek vehicles don't have much armour) and when considering how powerful the concept of air superiority is, thinking that they can either strap some wings onto galleon or ride a big bird.
Time travel, ignoring it is like ignoring space superiority today, ignoring air superiority in WWII carrier operations, ignoring the concept of trench warfare when charging with calvary, or ignoring the concept of firearms when the Aztecs attacked conquistadors.
Time travel, gentleman. Its a whole new dimension, literally. You can't defend or fight if you just....suddenly don't exist.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
For all we know, Anakin is the product of his mother and Kirk's unholy union. It would explain a lot.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out. For example in the IV, the Star Destroyer rather easily attacked and disabled a much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship without destroying it. In V they were able to target and seriously damage from a lengthy range a very much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship, which had to resort to suicidal tactics to escape.
And in VI, well the Empire was doing just fine putting the hurt on the Rebels with their fleet until the Emperor died.
As for starfighters, you're forgetting that the Empire successfully killed just about all of the attacking rebel starfighters, remember? The force that attacked the first Death Star had, like, an 85% casualty rate.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Don't have anything to add, other than this is a great thread. Combining 2 of my geek loves.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out. For example in the IV, the Star Destroyer rather easily attacked and disabled a much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship without destroying it. In V they were able to target and seriously damage from a lengthy range a very much smaller, nimbler, and faster ship, which had to resort to suicidal tactics to escape.
And in VI, well the Empire was doing just fine putting the hurt on the Rebels with their fleet until the Emperor died.
As for starfighters, you're forgetting that the Empire successfully killed just about all of the attacking rebel starfighters, remember? The force that attacked the first Death Star had, like, an 85% casualty rate.
Well, duh. There are thousands of guns on the surface of the Death Star, all of them firing at a high rate of speed. With that much weaponry going off at once, even with the Empire's absolutely lousy accuracy rate, they're bound to hit something.
I mean, they couldn't even hit a group of fighters flying down a trench no larger than three X-Wings abreast. None of those X-Wings were employing any meaningful evasive maneuvers- probably because they could count on the Empire missing a majority of the time and just play the odds.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out.
I'm not worried about Imperial accuracy, per se.
I'm worried about how the Empire intends to hit, much less detect, something moving faster than light, and how it intends to defend against projectiles moving even faster.
Posted by calaban (Member # 2516) on :
Nobody has mentioned the menace from Krikkit.
Evil White Robots with Cricket Bats. How can anyone stand in the face of such raw evil. I dont think the the Federation, Empire, Rebellion, Ori, Replicators, Gua'ould, and all the missing dolphins combined could stand up to such a menace.
GG.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I was actually pointing out that the Empire's accuracy in starship combat isn't as bad as you're making out.
I'm not worried about Imperial accuracy, per se.
I'm worried about how the Empire intends to hit, much less detect, something moving faster than light, and how it intends to defend against projectiles moving even faster.
I think it ties into my argument well. If they can't even hit something that is, essentially, standing still, then how are they going to hit something moving by so fast that it's not even visible to the naked eye.
Just look at the scene at the beginning of ANH, when the escape capsule manned by the droids goes flying by the Star Destroyer. The Turbo Laser pictured is manned by a human crew. It is something akin to the deck guns on Destroyers in WWII.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
dont bring time travel into this, it ruins the whole point of the arguement, think of it as a who would win arguement between Imperial Rome and the Han or Song Dynsaty, jut because they would never meet* or fight doesnt mean its not fun to think about the outcome.
*They did meet actually, a 30,000 expeditionary force visited Roman terrirory near modern day Armenia at one poinr.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Yes, but neither the Romans nor the Chinese had/have time travel.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
you miss the point, never has time travel been used to allow the Feds to *win* a war. Example:
In TNG the Enterprise-C was rescued from its suicide run versus Romulan Warbirds when they were raiding a Klingon Colony. This action changed history where instead of the Detente between the Feds and Klingons continueing instead they broke out into Total Warfare where in Picards words "Starfleet estimates that within 6 months we will be forced to surrender" no Daniel came to save them, no Admiral Janeway, no sling around the sun, no kirk, no whales nothing. Had they kept the Enterprise-C in a futile effort to stave off defeat time would have still been changed and no one would have tried to change it.
Time travel by the 31st century has been used only to prevent Voyager and other factions in the TCW from changing history, if the Imperials were to create a wormhole and invade the Alpha quadrant they would have done NOTHING to stop it. Time Travel in this sense is a fruitless excersize in futility.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Mucus, I would argue that using SW EU is acceptable, and ST EU is not, simply because of how the respective franchise owners treat their canon. SW EU is "second tier canon," i.e. it is canon unless directly contradicted by the films. To that end, Lucas Books has very stringent rules about maintaining internal continuity in their tie-in products. The ST EU has no such canon status, and as a result, the novels, games, comic books, etc. are all free to contradict each other willy-nilly.
In other words, the Empire can bring Thrawn, the Sun Crusher, Eclipse Super Star Destroyers, the Star Forge, and all that other stuff to bear, while the Federation is stuck with whatever they had access to in the TV series and films. Relatively speaking, this means that the quantity of Crazy Ass Scifi Mumbo Jumbo available to both sides is still ludicrously skewed towards Star Trek, considering that it has, in addition to their 10 movies, a full 29 seasons of TV episodes from which to draw material.
In the interests of full disclosure- I actually way prefer Trek to Wars (although the original trilogy holds a special place in my heart). And I'm still calling this one for the Empire. Because in the end, the Force is still the ultimate deus ex machina.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
No, you're missing the point. If the Romans or the Chinese had time travel, you'd better believe they'd use it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Well if Star Trek gets to use all its novels and movies/TV series, then we should give SW the benefit of all its novels.
While it is true that SWU does not have time travel, they (Jedis/Sith) certainly have the ability to view the past and the future. They would certainly see WHO would attempt to go into the past and alter events, and believe me if they could be stopped they would find a way to do it. Not to mention Jaican's "flow walk" ability, which allows him to manipulate time.
While folks in the ST universe can travel through time and project what the results of time alterations would be, folks in the SW universe can just as easily make crucial decisions by attuning themselves to the force.
A good solid Jedi simply puts their mind to defeating the federation and Force can direct their actions perfectly. Honestly the only thing I can see stopping somebody with the force is somebody else with the force, which is why the Star Wars galaxy has conflict. Because good and evil people both have access to it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: No, you're missing the point. If the Romans or the Chinese had time travel, you'd better believe they'd use it.
Actually there would be a VERY interesting dynamic with the Chinese believing that messing with the actions of their ancestors would be extremely unfilial.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Sure, but what about other people's ancestors?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
PC do you just realize how much literature there is on the subject of Time Travel of it causing more wounds and tragedies then it fixes? Heck, Andromeda goes through what is considered the OPTIMAL timeline and yet the Commonwealth is still crushed how many times? Its horrible what Cptn Dylan Hunt and his friends go through just to get what an outside observer considered the best possible outcome.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You can't use the whole SW:EU. It ignores the timeline.
At that point you're just cherry picking. The argument so far has not been the SWU vs. the STU but rather the Empire vs. the Federation. By the time all the SWU high tech stuff, like Sun Crushers, and more Jedi, and Eclipse Super Star Destroyers all came around, the Empire was already shrinking drastically, and had nowhere NEAR the kind of hardware or resources being talked about in this thread. If we're going to talk about the best that can possibly be taken from SW, then we have to get the best that ST has to offer as well, and that means 31st century Federation vs. the New Republic basically.
And that's an exercise in futility as well, as they would never fight each other.
Nope, the Empire is stuck with what it had, which is already formidable. If they can't beat time travel, then they have to suck it up and NOT invade.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: No, you're missing the point. If the Romans or the Chinese had time travel, you'd better believe they'd use it.
Actually there would be a VERY interesting dynamic with the Chinese believing that messing with the actions of their ancestors would be extremely unfilial.
Do I feel a novel coming on?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: you miss the point, never has time travel been used to allow the Feds to *win* a war. Example:
In TNG the Enterprise-C was rescued from its suicide run versus Romulan Warbirds when they were raiding a Klingon Colony. This action changed history where instead of the Detente between the Feds and Klingons continueing instead they broke out into Total Warfare where in Picards words "Starfleet estimates that within 6 months we will be forced to surrender" no Daniel came to save them, no Admiral Janeway, no sling around the sun, no kirk, no whales nothing. Had they kept the Enterprise-C in a futile effort to stave off defeat time would have still been changed and no one would have tried to change it.
Time travel by the 31st century has been used only to prevent Voyager and other factions in the TCW from changing history, if the Imperials were to create a wormhole and invade the Alpha quadrant they would have done NOTHING to stop it. Time Travel in this sense is a fruitless excersize in futility.
The first is obviously untrue. The Federation has never used time travel to win an *offensive* war true, but thats mostly because it has never been depicted as being *in* an offensive war. However, Starfleet has used time travel to end wars several times.
Admiral Janeway essentially ended the war with the Borg when she brough Voyager home. The Temporal Cold War was obviously ended that way. Also the saving of the whales was done totally on Kirk's own initiative.
You also miss the point of "Yesterday's Enterprise." The events in that episode are actually necessary for the correct timeline to occur. No "Yesterday's Enterprise" means no Sela, no Sela means no Klingon civil war. No civil war means Gowron doesn't ascend to the throne in the same manner, etc. Daniels could not stop the events of the episode because the events were necessary. Furthermore, he didn't have to because Picard took care of it himself. Daniel's only appeared to Archer because Archer couldn't have dealt with it himself.
The last point is also rather crippled by linear thinking. The problem is that if the Imperials invaded and won, then the timeline *would* be different. However, we already know that there is a 31st century Federation and the Empire never won, so there are only two options. Either they stopped the invasion before it could occur or the invasion failed.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... While folks in the ST universe can travel through time and project what the results of time alterations would be, folks in the SW universe can just as easily make crucial decisions by attuning themselves to the force.
A good solid Jedi simply puts their mind to defeating the federation and Force can direct their actions perfectly. Honestly the only thing I can see stopping somebody with the force is somebody else with the force, which is why the Star Wars galaxy has conflict. Because good and evil people both have access to it.
No go. The Empire *has* no Jedi. It killed them off remember? The Emperor and Vader show no real ability to predict the future in that manner, at least not successfully, since they were defeated by one mostly untrained farmboy. The other problem is no matter how a Jedi uses the Force to predict future events, he cannot change events before his training in the Force. He certainly cannot prevent someone from affecting his parents or ancestors.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Sure, but what about other people's ancestors?
Not so much, the Chinese hold the doings of other cultures as at best interesting bathroom reading, at worst barbaric.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:at least not successfully getting defeated by one mostly untrained farmboy.
Who just happens to be, "the one who will bring balance to the force." Not to mention having the living ghost of his mentor there almost all the time, as well as being trained one of the most talented jedi masters in history.
I have always wondered why the emperor makes a point of saying several times, "Everything is happening as I have foreseen," and yet Skywalkers success was unforeseen.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I have always wondered why the emperor makes a point of saying several times, "Everything is happening as I have foreseen," and yet Skywalkers success was unforeseen.
I'm sure he was just speaking figuratively. It's Palpatine's version of "I love it when a plan comes together!"
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Palpatine wasn't defeated by Luke Skywalker, you know.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Palpatine wasn't defeated by Luke Skywalker, you know.
Not directly, but had Luke not been around, Vader would not have turned on him.
edit: and where did I say, "Luke defeated Palpatine?" I said Luke's successes were unforeseen.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Thus highlighting, once again, the importance of family. Vader in '08!
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:The Empire *has* no Jedi.
Perhaps not "Jedi", but definitely a lot of force sensitive people. There was Mara, C'baoth, as well as countless clones of Palpatine and Thrawn. I'm not sure how the Federation would handle an endless supply of Sith Lords, and I'm sure the Empire would have plenty on hand if they were planning an invasion of another galaxy.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Who just happens to be, "the one who will bring balance to the force." Not to mention having the living ghost of his mentor there almost all the time, as well as being trained one of the most talented jedi masters in history.
You misunderstand the prophecy. For example, link, Anakin is the one that brings balance to the Force, not Skywalker, by finally wiping out the Sith. Skywalker is just there, plus he's expendable which is why when he leaves to confront Vader in TESB, Yoda says that there is another that could take his place, his sister.
camus: Starfleet wouldn't *have* to deal with an endless supply of Sith lords. The very nature of Sith lords makes them unable to work together, they would fight each other before fighting another. Remember how hard it was for Thrawn to control just Joruus? Even he would fear the thought of controlling an army of them, which is why his plans never went beyond creating one controllable clone of Joruus to replace him. Thats also the whole reason the Master and Apprentice system was setup, the only stable number of Sith in the galaxy is two.
Also, Thrawn is not force sensitive and the clones of the Emperor die like harvested wheat in the EU. He's like the Kenny of the Star Wars Universe, "You killed the Emperor! You bastard!"
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
The Federation needs to recruit only one Force-sensitive person that's opposed to the Empire, and most of the Empire's advantages as it relates to Force usage disappear.
And I'm sure the Feds can find one *somewhere*... They can always find something like that in the matter of a 30 minute episode. When you find him/her, it'll probably be easy to convince them that they should be on the Fed's side. Throw a couple of Deltans at them or something.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:Starfleet wouldn't *have* to deal with an endless supply of Sith lords. The very nature of Sith lords makes them unable to work together, they would fight each other before fighting another. Remember how hard it was for Thrawn to control just Joruus?
I used Sith Lord as a shorthand for "force sensitive beings with the potential of being Sith Lords that have a knowledge of Sith teachings." And there are some pretty nasty Sith techniques that Kyp and Jacen were able to use despite not being Sith Lords.
And I wasn't really thinking of Thrawn controlling Joruus.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:The Federation needs to recruit only one Force-sensitive person that's opposed to the Empire, and most of the Empire's advantages as it relates to Force usage disappear.
I'm not sure why those disadvantages would disappear, unless that recruit happened to be a Skywalker. And I don't know where they'd find him [Edit: that is, any force-sensitive person that is opposed to the Empire], because I'm pretty sure the Empire wouldn't just be sending anyone in the invasion.
[ March 26, 2007, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: camus ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, if Luke Skywalker wasn't around, Leia wouldn't have been around, and Padme would not have had children...had she not had children, she wouldn't have been threatened by childbirth...and Palpatine would have lost by far his biggest hook.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I don't think the Force can be brought into the discussion. You'd have a great argument going if midi-chlorians hadn't entered the picture in the newer films. Knowing that a high concentration of simple microscopic organisms seperate force-users from the rest of the mob, those in the Star Trek universe would easily fashion some kind of malicious nano-bot or retrovirus to rid all force users of their power.
I'm sure with a captured Jedi (the films have never made them out to be wholly indestructable), the Star Trek folks would be able to figure out whatever the force is and block its effects over long distances.
In fact, I think this argument has been made on this thread already. I don't think the force will be a deciding factor in a long, inter-galactic war.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:You'd have a great argument going if midi-chlorians hadn't entered the picture in the newer films
The prequels are nothing more than vicious lies. The real George Lucas would never have authorized such blasphemy. Thus, anything referred to in the prequels cannot be taken as SW canon. Although, if the Empire made a bunch of Jar-Jar clones and kept sending them to our galaxy, it might just drive the Federation into insanity, thus paving the way for an easy invasion.
quote:I'm sure with a captured Jedi (the films have never made them out to be wholly indestructable), the Star Trek folks would be able to figure out whatever the force is and block its effects over long distances.
Why would a Jedi or Sith even need to enter the battle field? They could orchestrate the entire battle from a safe distance on the edge of the galaxy.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You know, the question is actually pretty loaded anyway. If you put the Federation up against the Empire, you're basically pitting the entire ST canon into play against one small segment of the SW canon.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by camus:
quote:I'm sure with a captured Jedi (the films have never made them out to be wholly indestructable), the Star Trek folks would be able to figure out whatever the force is and block its effects over long distances.
Why would a Jedi or Sith even need to enter the battle field? They could orchestrate the entire battle from a safe distance on the edge of the galaxy.
You make an excellent point. However, both the books and films have shown both sides of the force can't seem to keep from jumping into the thick of it. Even Palpatine couldn't resist hanging out at the Death Star in ROTJ.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's a valid point about the Sith. Palapatine's skills would best be used to coordinate the fleet, not to force choke Picard from a lightyear away. Palpatine's death is the reason they lost the Battle of Endor, despite a supremely overwhelming superiority in capital ships after the Death Star II was destroyed. He was controlling the fleet via the Force, and it is part of what made them such a deadly weapon of conquest.
It's something we saw used to great effect with Force melds in the NJO, but the Jedi would never go so far as to control the minds of fellow soldiers.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Wow... this thread was beyond silly long ago... now it's just absolutely absurd.
We should make a Monty Python sketch out of this... it could work, almost verbatim.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I actually way prefer Trek to Wars (although the original trilogy holds a special place in my heart). And I'm still calling this one for the Empire. Because in the end, the Force is still the ultimate deus ex machina.
It's the reverse for me. I prefer the SWU, but think the STU would win.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If I absolutely had to pick, I'd probably pick Star Wars, but it's a decision I hope I never have to make.
It comes down to the characters. When I have to choose between the crews of the Enterprise/DS9 and Corran Horn with the rest of the Rogues, the Wraiths, all the original characters. There's so many great characters, it's really hard to choose. My love of SWU goes back much further, but there's a special place in my heart for both.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I know little about both universes compared to the infinite knowledge of the legions of nerds here, so what I am about to speculate on may not work: Wouldn't The Q just disable or destroy the Empire? They are partial to humans and the rest of the STU species, especially the (John DeLancey) Q we all know. Q might manipulate The Emperor himself. The Force is just a punchline to The Q, given their power.
Disable or destroy isn't exactly what I mean. I think that Q would probably enhance the Empire just to teach the Federation an important lesson about, well, something. Ultimately, I don't see Q falling for despicable people like Palpatine and Vader, even as he finds them fascinating enough to engage. The Q would be more likely to demolish the competing power of The Force.
With The Q, time travel, and far more science and military flexibility, I don't see how the Federation could lose.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
If you could trust him ... he's not a tame god, you know.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Q wouldnt help the Feds win their war, he warned them of the Borg but that was it.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
Considering that the entire STU universe was made solely so Q can mess with Picard, maybe we should consider how he would feel about this... I think he would laugh pretty hard if the feds lost, although he would not want to risk losing any of his favorite toys...
So he might let the feds lose the war, but keep the crew around to join the rebels and fight against the Empire and reclaim the Federation at a later date...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Q wouldnt help the Feds win their war, he warned them of the Borg but that was it.
Well that's ONE way of looking at it. He INTRODUCED them to the Borg and vice versa. Without Q, there likely never would have been a Wolf 359 or First Contact.
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