quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: Would you mind providing some more information on the link you've provided? I don't like clicking on links blind, and, I suspect, many others here don't, either.
Xkcd is a nerdy webcomic. The linked strip is about Ender's Game.
[ March 28, 2007, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Q ]
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
Don't forget to check the mouseOver quote, too.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Would you mind providing some more information on the link you've provided? I don't like clicking on links blind, and, I suspect, many others here don't, either.
Posted by Fusiachi (Member # 7376) on :
xkcd is a web-comic. Usually nerd/science-based humor. It's safe for work, and this one is an EG reference.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
Very funny. I'm quite amused.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Thanks, Q & Fusiachi. Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
thanks for the link. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
That's pretty cool.
-Annie --The enemy's gate is down--
Posted by martha (Member # 141) on :
Fusi, thanks for pointing out the mouseover quote -- I never would've noticed that!
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
What mouseover quote?
Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
quote:It's safe for work.
Well, it's often safe for work, and today's definitely is, but it sometimes gets on the obscene side. There is a disclaimer which appears on every comic page, and sums the situation up nicely: "Warning: this comic occasionally contains strong language (which may be unsuitable for children), unusual humor (which may be unsuitable for adults), and advanced mathematics (which may be unsuitable for liberal-arts majors)."
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: What mouseover quote?
If you place your mouse over the image, and leave it there, a message should pop up after a few seconds. You can also right-click the image and view properties to read the mouseover text (depending on what browser you use). I won't repeat it here in case people are reading the thread before they look at the comic.
Also, there's a rather interesting discussion of the comic going on in the fora.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Those are pretty funny. I especially like the "bored with the internet" one that's linked to at the bottom. I like this dude, whoever he is. However... I am once again vexed. Webcomics mean that no one feels like they need to know how to draw anymore. How do we resolve that?
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
I think the stick figures add to the charm of the strip. Munroe manages to get an extraordinary amount of emotion out of the simplest of drawings (sort of like Exploding Dog)... I can't actually think of any way that more elaborate artwork would enhance his particular style of humor.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Easy answer: we continue to read the webcomics we like?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Yes, but aren't we plebians?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:I think the stick figures add to the charm of the strip.
Yeah, but that's an easy freshman-in-art-school answer. "But I LIKE it that way!"
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Annie: lots of webcomics have real artists who really know how to draw.
If you want to see good art read: Something*Positive Girly Misfile El Goonish Shive Earthsong (GREAT art!) Inverloch (AMAZING art!) The Zombie Hunters Questionable Content (VERY well drawn!) or any of dozens upon dozens of others.
XKCD doesn't need great art to get its funny across and still have readers.
And of course, one of the best webcomics out there is Order Of The Stick.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie:
quote:I think the stick figures add to the charm of the strip.
Yeah, but that's an easy freshman-in-art-school answer. "But I LIKE it that way!"
Yes, stamp out their creativity. Everyone must do art the same way...
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Yes, stamp out their creativity. Everyone must do art the same way...
Of course they don't. But they have to learn how to do it before they consciously choose not to.
I don't know how many times a critique in art class turned into a defensive "you're stamping out my creativity!"
There was one girl in my ceramics class who just insisted that she liked her mugs extra thick and that's why she made them that way.
My professor answered: "You can make them thick the way you like them once you learn how to make them stop exploding in the kiln."
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
*Hopes her crappy drawings don't explode in the kiln*
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie:
quote:I think the stick figures add to the charm of the strip.
Yeah, but that's an easy freshman-in-art-school answer. "But I LIKE it that way!"
Wow. Presumptuous much?
I like plenty of strips with great art. Scary Go Round, Penny Arcade, Mac Hall (and its spinoff, Three Panel Soul), Minus... I could go on and on. Each of the artists behind those strips can draw like nobody's business- and each independently invalidates your claim that webcomics are somehow promoting acceptance of crappy artwork. If anything, webcomics have spurred a renaissance in *good* artwork, since the reduced limitations of web publication promote open canvasses, full color, and digital artwork.
My appreciation of xkcd comes from its writing, which is brilliant. I think that the simplicity of the artwork gives greater focus to the writing. Furthermore, I would argue that xkcd is actually an example of great compositional technique. Strips like this one very effectively illustrate the feeling behind the text, without coming off as maudlin. An artist more talented with a pen could have filled the frame with color, given the woman's spinning body detail and shading, made the bed photorealistic... but does that add anything to the point being made? I don't think so. There's a good chance it would, in fact, come off as schmaltzy and sentimental, rather than a simply-stated, somewhat whimsical expression of love.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Annie, I prefer to think of it as opening the world a little bit. Those who can draw will continue to do so, and those who can't draw but have The Funny will make stick figures.
It isn't that they are refusing to learn how to draw, but that without the medium, they wouldn't be allowing me to access their Funny.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie:
quote:Yes, stamp out their creativity. Everyone must do art the same way...
Of course they don't. But they have to learn how to do it before they consciously choose not to.
I don't know how many times a critique in art class turned into a defensive "you're stamping out my creativity!"
There was one girl in my ceramics class who just insisted that she liked her mugs extra thick and that's why she made them that way.
My professor answered: "You can make them thick the way you like them once you learn how to make them stop exploding in the kiln."
How do you know they don't know how to draw? Rich Burlew (of the aforementioned Order of the Stick) can draw quite well, but chooses to do a stick figure comic. He actually gets a bit miffed at the whole 'Rich can't draw!' mail that he gets and worked a few of his more detailed sketches into the strip just to show he could do it.
I keep threatening to put this one on my refigerator at home because both my hubby and I do this: http://xkcd.com/c231.html Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Annie: lots of webcomics have real artists who really know how to draw.
If you want to see good art read: Something*Positive Girly Misfile El Goonish Shive Earthsong (GREAT art!) Inverloch (AMAZING art!) The Zombie Hunters Questionable Content (VERY well drawn!) or any of dozens upon dozens of others.
Add Sluggy Freelance to that list - in general it's very good art, but sometimes he outdoes himself and produces something amazing.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I do agree Tick, that the guy in the strip you linked to is a dang good artist. But you can tell that from his "stick figures." It's not about style, it's about execution. See - he chooses a deliberately simple style, and he executes it well. I think he pulls it off rather nicely.
And I'm not trying to be high and mighty - this is just how I see things. But I do find a disturbing trend with modern technology and desktop publishing to publish things just because we can. This is not a bad thing - many talented people are able to reach audiences this way. But I do think it causes us to settle for mediocrity.
Is the xkcd comic writer brilliant? Absolutely! So was Oscar Hammerstein, but he only wrote the lyrics. He teamed up with someone to write the score.
I think that many would-be artists and authors (myself included!) would be pushed to do better work if they didn't settle for the quasi-fame of the internet. Whether it be collaborations or higher training personally, there are ways that much of our mediocre art could be pushed and refined into great art.
But you don't have to take my word for it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Yes, but aren't we plebians?
First answer: If so, SO WHAT?
Second answer: Pfft. Just because I appreciate the subtle nuance of the Mona Lisa does not mean I cannot appreciate my child's collage, a stick-figure comic sketch (and traditionally, most newspaper comics are pretty minimalist anyway), a simple quilt, and an elaborate mosaic.
Appreciating one does not have to be an exclusion of the others. Does it?
If someone were praising xkcd for its mastery of perspective, you would have a point. But we're saying that we like it, and that it's funny. Its artistic merits are besides the point.
That does not mean that artistic merits in general are besides the point, though.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
The plebians comment was tongue-in-cheek.
I agree that it's very funny and very smart. I'm just not convinced that its artistic merits are beside the point, though it makes a good argument. That's why I was so sorely vexed in my first post.
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
These are great!
This one pretty much sums up my feelings on education just now.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Since we're talking about webcomics...anyone want to illustrate mine?
It's called Shipmates and it's awesome.
Trust me.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I WOULD be worthy of Annie's bane, as all I can draw are Burlew-esque (Burlesque?) figures. But yes, someone illustrate Scott's comic!
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Since we're talking about webcomics...anyone want to illustrate mine?
It's called Shipmates and it's awesome.
Trust me.
Don't look at me. I certainly can't draw.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Edit: Obviously, the earliest ones are earlier in the journal. But the author's comments are equally hilarious.
quote:Padme, like every girl, knew it was practically impossible to find a man who was young, hot and good father material. She had to work with what she had: young, hot and psychopathic. Besides, her biological clock was ticking. She didn’t really care who provided the fiery seed, she just wanted a baby. Real bad. She figured two out of three was good enough. The most important thing was Anakin was hot. And young.
-pH
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Here's an excerpt to tingle your tastebuds...
quote: #14
PANEL 1:
JONAH IS SLIDING DOWN A LADDER—HOLDING ONTO IT WITH HIS HANDS, BUT SPACING HIS FEET WIDE APART SO THAT THEY ARE ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE LADDER FRAME.
PANEL 2:
ANGELA FOLLOWS HIM CAREFULLY.
PANEL 3:
THEY ARE IN A SMALL, CLUTTERED CARGO BAY.
ANGELA: What is this? Why did we have to crawl through fifty feet of air ducts to get here?
JONAH: This is one of the original cargo bays. We disabled the doors…
ANGELA: Why—oh. Oh my…
PANEL 4: (HALF PAGE SPREAD…OR REALLY BIG PICTURE, WHATEVER WORKS FOR YOU)
IN FRONT OF HER IS A SLEEK MOTORCYCLE. JANUARY KARL IS SITTING CROSS-LEGGED ON THE GROUND LOOKING UP AT HER, GRINNING. THERE IS A LAPTOP ACROSS HIS KNEES, A CORD RUNNING TO AN INTERFACE ON THE MOTORCYCLE. BITS AND PARTS OF THE MOTORCYCLE’S ENGINE ARE LAID OUT ON THE FLOOR.
PANEL 5:
ANGELA: That’s a Harley Davidson Knucklehead.
JONAH: Is it?
ANGELA: You didn’t know?
JANUARY: No. We just call it Morticia.
JONAH: I thought we agreed on Janeway?
PANEL 6:
ANGELA (APPROACHES THE MOTORCYCLE, LAYS HER HAND ON THE FENDER): Shh, Jonah, you’re scaring her. Where did you find her?
PANEL 7:
JONAH AND JANUARY EXCHANGE GLANCES.
JONAH: Um… salvage mission.
PANEL 8:
ANGELA IS HOLDING A PIECE TO THE ENGINE. JANUARY AND JONAH ARE LOOKING AT HER.
ANGELA: Why are there parts everywhere?
JANUARY: No instruction manual.
PANEL 9:
ANGELA (PICKING AT THE CORD): What’s this for?
JANUARY: Operating system. It looks like this beast runs on a combustion engine; since hooking one of those things is impossible…
ANGELA: Moderately difficult, anyway…
JANUARY: …we hooked up a hybrid drive to it instead. There was room in that casing for a computer, so…
PANEL 10:
ANGELA IS LAYING HER HEAD AGAINST THE HARLEY’S GAS TANK, RUNNING HER FINGERS ALONG IT.
ANGELA (CROONING TO THE MOTORCYCLE): Heathen boys. What have they done to you, my lovely? I’ll make it all better…
PANEL 11:
ANGELA (TO JANUARY): Give me a wrench. First thing, we take out the hybrid drive. It won’t make nearly the amount of noise we want.
JANUARY: We want noisy?
ANGELA: Oh, yes…
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Of course they don't. But they have to learn how to do it before they consciously choose not to.
I don't know how many times a critique in art class turned into a defensive "you're stamping out my creativity!"
There was one girl in my ceramics class who just insisted that she liked her mugs extra thick and that's why she made them that way.
My professor answered: "You can make them thick the way you like them once you learn how to make them stop exploding in the kiln."
I agree that in an art class, you need to worry about mastering technique before you can worry about developing your unique style. I had the same sort of "But this is my style!" whiners in my art classes, and I agreed with my teachers then.
But I also think that I like the style of XKCD regardless of how the artist developed that style. Yes, the internet has made it possible for all kinds of people without any semblance of talent to publish stuff. But I don't think that necessarily means that society has lowered its standards of what it considers to be good art. And I also don't think that everyone who wants to draw a comic strip has to become an expert at figure drawing before they can decide to use stick figures instead.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Occasionally you need someone who has not been trained in the normal way to shake things up. Once you learn "the way it's done" it's harder to think outside the box, so to speak... and that's important in everything. Especially art.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Occasionally you need someone who has not been trained in the normal way to shake things up. Once you learn "the way it's done" it's harder to think outside the box, so to speak... and that's important in everything. Especially art.
That's true, but obviously not all change is good change.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
BB: I was thinking specifically of Danny Elfman. He's taken flack for not being professionally schooled, yet he's an incredibly prolific when it comes to movie scores (and back in the old days, with his rock band.)
He's one of my favorite living composers, but the people who "know how it's done right" hate him.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Is the xkcd comic writer brilliant? Absolutely! So was Oscar Hammerstein, but he only wrote the lyrics. He teamed up with someone to write the score.
I strongly suspect that I would not like xkcd so much if it had more elaborate artwork. I believe the simplicity -- and specifically the blank, faceless nature of the protagonists -- is what makes the strip work, much in the same way that the dinosaur clip art of qwantz.com could not be improved through, say, more realistic and dynamic drawings of dinosaurs. It's part of the strip's aesthetic, not some necessary evil.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:I think that many would-be artists and authors (myself included!) would be pushed to do better work if they didn't settle for the quasi-fame of the internet.
Says the girl on an internet bulletin board. Do you have a website? Myspace/Livejournal/blogspot of your own? Do tell.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
It doesn't need to be more realistic. Comics by their very nature are not like oil paintings. But, as the Order of the Stick guy illustrates (heh), one can do simple and faceless well.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Do you have a website? Myspace/Livejournal/blogspot of your own? Do tell.
Yes.
Many of my Hatrack friends are familiar with my artwork and mediocre writing.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: BB: I was thinking specifically of Danny Elfman. He's taken flack for not being professionally schooled, yet he's an incredibly prolific when it comes to movie scores (and back in the old days, with his rock band.)
He's one of my favorite living composers, but the people who "know how it's done right" hate him.
That's news to me. The friends of mine who have BAs and MAs in different music focuses seem to think he's something of an autodidact crossover inspiration.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*giggles* Okay. I read this last night and it was funny, but after reading there was mouse-over text went back to see it, and almost peed my pants.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie:
quote:Do you have a website? Myspace/Livejournal/blogspot of your own? Do tell.
Yes.
Many of my Hatrack friends are familiar with my artwork and mediocre writing.
Why do you bother putting it on the internet if it's mediocre? Why not find someone better than you to realize your visions with more talent?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Why not find someone better than you to realize your visions with more talent?
I'm working on it, amigo Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:But, as the Order of the Stick guy illustrates (heh), one can do simple and faceless well.
OotS isn't faceless. How would you do simple and faceless differently?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: BB: I was thinking specifically of Danny Elfman. He's taken flack for not being professionally schooled, yet he's an incredibly prolific when it comes to movie scores (and back in the old days, with his rock band.)
He's one of my favorite living composers, but the people who "know how it's done right" hate him.
Heartily agree! I like Danny Elfman alot, but not everything he writes appeals to me. Honestly for me when it comes to music, the hard part is getting whats going on in my head onto paper. I feel that music schools are good for 2 things.
1: They teach you HOW to write down your ideas 2: They expose you to new ideas that might or might not appeal to you.
Note that you can learn how to get your ideas down without even paper (thanks to technology) and you do not need to study and be influenced by others in order to produce beautiful music. I think we are bombarded with enough music just from being out in the world that ANYBODY who puts their mind to it can use it as a mentor.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:But, as the Order of the Stick guy illustrates (heh), one can do simple and faceless well.
OotS isn't faceless. How would you do simple and faceless differently?
I realize OotS isn't faceless, but it has a simple, non-realistic illustrative style. One can be very very minimlistic and still be professional. The xkcd guy isn't that bad. Not as bad as that horrid cartoon in Japan with the badly-drawn child and badly-drawn dinosaur. But it's obvious he's not a comic artist.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Thanks for judging for us.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
But he obviously is a comic artist. He has a comic, and he's the artist of that comic. He might not be a good one, in your opinion, but that's ultimately just your opinion. Clearly, there are people who find his "unprofessional" style appealing and illustrative. Who are you to say we're wrong?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm looking at this strip -- http://www.xkcd.com/c150.html -- and wondering what a more mannered art style would add to it. How, for example, can you improve on that third panel in any meaningful way?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But he obviously is a comic artist.
That is obviously not the definition she is using.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
I understand that. And she's entitled to her definition. However, she seems to believe that hers is the only valid definition, at least judging from statements like "But it's obvious he's not a comic artist." If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. Regardless, it is clearly NOT "obvious" that her statement is true, because I and several others in this thread have vocally disagreed with it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It isn't a good idea to be upset when people hold opinions different than yours.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
*bursts out laughing
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Erm... do I sound upset? I guess I was mildly annoyed while writing my second post, since I had just been equated to a freshman art student and had my point summarily dismissed. But that annoyance has long since faded.
However, I still do disagree with her point of view, and I'm trying to explain why. I don't expect her to necessarily change her mind. She's free to hold and express her opinions, and I'm free to disagree. Isn't that the whole point of these Intar-nets fora?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Who are you to say we're wrong?
Who are you to say I am? We're both just expressing opinions here. I still like you all as people, I promise. Especially Tom Davidson. He's jolly.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Did I say you were? I think your point of view is perfectly valid. My opinion happens to be that it's possible to appreciate art that doesn't necessarily demonstrate technical skill in the traditional sense, that lack of technique can in fact be a purposeful move intended to draw a particular response from the viewer. I don't think I'm being unfair when I say that your posts in this thread indicate that you DON'T think that is a valid point of view. But again, if I'm mistaken, I apologize.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I've been cruising through some of those strips and it looks like he's actually pretty good. This one, for instance, is almost something I would hang on my wall. I made my previous statements based on the level of artistry in the Ender strip, and it turns out this guy's actually surprisingly (if not consistently) good.
My opinion on webcomic as a genre, however, is unchanged.
That and FanFic. We can discuss that next if ou like. Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Nah. I'm with you on fanfic.
Still, I encourage you to check out some of the webcomics I mentioned. They really do have beautiful artwork (and I'd be happy to list some more, if you're interested).
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Great... I'm lumped in with fanfic. thanks a bunch.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*growls at Annie*
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Annie, I don't understand why the one you just linked as wall-worthy is necessarily any better than some of the others that've already been linked here. What about it appeals to you?
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Because her opinion is more cultivated than yours, Tom. Why don't you get this?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Justa, having spent some time with Annie, I can say with some surety that she does not deserve the snark. She's not an unpleasant snob, believe me. The girl does mixed media with bleach pens.
I actually know very little about art theory besides the basics of composition that every B.A. student picks up, and I'm sure Annie has a reason for considering certain drawings "better" than others. I'm not informed enough on the subject to understand the criteria, so I was asking for explanation.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
But what does your knowing her have to do with my appreciation of or value for any art in any form?
The long and short of it is that there is more less talented people out there than there are exceptionally talented people, but closing exposition to only the talented people is elitist no matter how you spin things. The sweetest, kindest, most bubbly person in the world could be an unabashed elitist about something like socks, but the sweet, kind, bubbly personality traits to not negate that the person is an elitist.
I'm calling her a snob. Maybe you are right and she is a very nice and friendly snob. Doesn't make much difference to me, since this thread isn't about how nice and friendly Annie is.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
My point is that we don't actually know what her criteria IS for a good image.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
My point is that it doesn't make a difference, since my criteria are not contingent on what hers are.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
But, when Annie tells us (assuming she decides to come back here after the abominable way you've treated her), then those of us who know less about art might see something that was not evident to use before. On seeing that, we might entirely disagree with her, but it would still be something I'd be interested in hearing.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Abominable? I really don't see it.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
I don't see it either. Maybe I should have simply done a "*growl*" at her instead of openly disapproving of her statements.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Maybe. If you had already had multiple discussions with her about fanfic and agreed to disagree.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Abominable? I really don't see it.
Yes. This:
quote:Says the girl on an internet bulletin board. Do you have a website? Myspace/Livejournal/blogspot of your own? Do tell.
quote:I'm calling her a snob.
quote:Because her opinion is more cultivated than yours, Tom. Why don't you get this?
is abominable. Especially the last.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Agreed.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Actually, I found Annie's original statements worse. I chose to try to blow it off and convence her there were good webcomics out there but she still seems to look down on them as lesser art.
It's fine if she doesn't like it. But it's not lesser art.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I disagree with Annie both on the merits of webcomics (regardless of artistic merit) and fanfic. And yet, I managed not to deliberately insult her.
Pretty sure she was not trying to insult anyone either.
Justa, OTOH, certainly seems to be deliberately insulting Annie. And has made similarly insulting posts in other threads, directed at other people. (Not necessarily today.)
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
rivka: I'm sure you're right... but this thread has been bothering me... more than a little... all day.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
But does that make it Annie's fault?
You reacted similarly to comments made in another thread yesterday. Someone can disagree with you -- strongly -- and make negative comments about ideas you have presented and not be making a negative comment about you.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
rivka: Annie wasn't refering to me at all. I'm sure she had no idea that I was an amature cartoonist. She made a sweeping generalization that tarred me and a multitude of far better artists that all work very hard on their art and on improving their art. All you have to do is look at the first installment and the latest installment of almost any webcomic to see that.
I don't want to reopen what happened yesterday in this thread. If you want to discuss it, send me an email. But I won't be brokenhearted if you don't.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I am not trying to reopen what happened yesterday.
I am pointing out a trend which I think is unhealthy.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Dagonee, I submit that you are coming to the conclusion of "abominable" based on the member name.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: But does that make it Annie's fault?
You reacted similarly to comments made in another thread yesterday. Someone can disagree with you -- strongly -- and make negative comments about ideas you have presented and not be making a negative comment about you.
Oh, so not about me in particular, or not about others who may be posting or viewing the thread?
quote:Yeah, but that's an easy freshman-in-art-school answer. "But I LIKE it that way!"
Sure, not insulting to anyone here, assuming no one is in art school in their first year and reading it.
quote:But they have to learn how to do it before they consciously choose not to.
With the prevalence of people out there who have webcomics (I know two not on this forum who do), this comment assumes a lot of judgment. I could have sworn that was frowned on, considering how some have gotten literally rabid at me with that accusation.
quote:But I do think it causes us to settle for mediocrity.
Yeah, no way this could be interpreted as a personal insult.
Maybe it doesn't seem very insulting to you, rivka, but those are pretty sweeping value judgments of not just people who are creating those comics, but of anyone who enjoys those comics and holds them in higher esteem. Maybe she doesn't mean to belittle people with art-school-pretense, but as I told Tom it doesn't matter how nice you think the individual is personally, being a friendly snob is still being a snob.
There seems to be two prevalent standards of conduct floating around here.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Anyway, Annie, I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on what makes that one piece wall-worthier than the others you'd seen.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I agree that the Internet is full of crap but turns out I don't think this comic is part of aforesaid crap, stick figures and all. I don't think beautiful art would make it much more publishable in a mainstream forum, actually, given the small sample here on hatrack.
So are comics about image or about words? Where do idea and art intersect?
I hope Annie will answer Tom's question. I'm curious about what she'll say. FWIW, and it's not worth much, good grief, I don't think anyone's actually been mean, let alone abhominable. Maybe I think that because I don't think that being snobby is bad. I am DEFINITELY snobby about a variety of topics, and think Annie (and everyone else) is certainly allowed to be as snobby as they want to be about their chosen topics. Not to say that Annie IS being snobby, because then someone might yell at me too.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Maybe it doesn't seem very insulting to you, rivka, but those are pretty sweeping value judgments of not just people who are creating those comics, but of anyone who enjoys those comics and holds them in higher esteem.
As someone who enjoys those comics and holds them in higher esteem, I disagree.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Annie, I don't think your arguments are valid.
The free-access medium of the Internet does not water down art. As has been explained, many webcomics are not dreck; their illustrators are artists, and professionals.
quote: Webcomics mean that no one feels like they need to know how to draw anymore. How do we resolve that?
We don't resolve it. It's an okay thing to have happen.
Art is not debased by free webcomics.
quote:
But I do find a disturbing trend with modern technology and desktop publishing to publish things just because we can. This is not a bad thing - many talented people are able to reach audiences this way. But I do think it causes us to settle for mediocrity.
How does free access to content cause the general public to settle for mediocrity?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I read several webcomics with spectacular art. One of the reasons my girlfriend loves several webcomics is their art, and she's got a strong art background.
Some webcomics are not about art. They are about story and character, or situational humor, or what have you. The art might even be very bad, but it doesn't matter -- its just a support for the other qualities.
People have sketched for themselves for quite some time. Now some of that sketching is finding its way onto the web. I don't think people are producing less good public art, I think they're producing more! But there's also more bad public art.
A comic can also be an excellent way to improve one's artistic abilities. Anyone who's read the really early doonesbury strips can appreciate this.
I would love to hear what Annie has to say, and I have no doubt that even if I disagreed with her, her views would be cogent, passionate, and funny. I hope she does post.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:But I do find a disturbing trend with modern technology and desktop publishing to publish things just because we can. This is not a bad thing - many talented people are able to reach audiences this way. But I do think it causes us to settle for mediocrity.
With youtube and others, it is possible to get hours upon hours of free videos, generally made by amatures.
We post the funny ones on forum threads and tell our friends about them, but they haven't replaced professionally-done TV shows and movies.
Can you think of any reasons why access to free, amature-quality product would have such an affect with the medium of comics, while it failed to do so with videos?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It is possible for someone to diss something you like (webcomics, your baseball team, Firefly, fanfic) and NOT be dissing you.
It doesn't feel like that. It feels like every stab at something you hold dear is a stab at your very self. It isn't, though. You are not webcomics. You are not the Red Sox, and Mal is not your boyfriend. How someone values a work IS not equal to how someone values a person who likes that work.
Of course, the corollary is true as well. Someone is not cool simply because they identify with cool things. There is a difference between being interesting and being interested.
I'm just musing at this point. Just because this is a heated topic, I'm going to insert the disclaimer that the "you" in the post is the general "you."
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Annie: Those are pretty funny. I especially like the "bored with the internet" one that's linked to at the bottom. I like this dude, whoever he is. However... I am once again vexed. Webcomics mean that no one feels like they need to know how to draw anymore. How do we resolve that?
If I'm not mistaken, the artist is located in Montana.
Or, at least, that's where the return address on the tshirt I got from him was.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
quote:Webcomics mean that no one feels like they need to know how to draw anymore.
I can definitely see how it might feel like this at times, and it might be true for some webcomic artists, but all of those who've allowed some insight into their thoughts (typically by a blog or somesuch) that I have read have been extremely concerned with deficiencies (real and perceived) in their art, and continuously strive to improve.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I can definitely see how it might feel like this at times, and it might be true for some webcomic artists, but all of those who've allowed some insight into their thoughts (typically by a blog or somesuch) that I have read have been extremely concerned with deficiencies (real and perceived) in their art, and continuously strive to improve.
I think this is especially true of the QC artist. His early work is only slightly better than I could bang out in an afternoon. His later stuff is MILES beyond what I could ever hope to do.
It would be a shame to dismiss his earlier work as "you need to go hire an artist".
On an unrelated note, since when is "slightly rude" now "abominable"? Yeesh.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Webcomics or indeed any kind of comic aren't about art, they're about the ideas, stories and jokes expressed. If the drawing is sufficient and evocative to effectively serve the purposes of the comic- to make the reader laugh or think or be moved-, how is that not a good thing?
Simplicity does not necessarily equal bad art.
Also, xkcd in particular is often very beautiful. The author can clearly draw well and has a good sense of balance and beauty. The fact that his people and animals are faceless "stick figures" becomes almost irrelevent. What we don't see is almost more evocative than expressions.
I do not believe that writers and artists of webcomics are really viewing their work as a movement against "learned" art. That's not necessarily the goal of their work.
Additionally many artists of all kinds learn by doing not formally. As Xavier just pointed out, comic artists (not necessarily on the web) get better as they go along- this is true of comics like Dilbert as well as things like xkcd or Ctrl+Alt+Del. It's not a new trend or a sign of acceptance of mediocrity; amateur humourists and storytellers have been scratching out jokes on the walls of caves and in the corners of tombs since the dawn of time. Many artists start out rusty. Read, say, Charles deLint's earlier novels- they're simply not of the same quality of books written only half a decade later. The Beatles' early music is basic. Five, ten years later, they were turning out quality stuff that was unlike anything anyone had heard before.
This isn't new. It isn't an acceptance of mediocrity merely a different starting point. It's not even necessarily the point of the exercise in the case of a comic. Finally, it can even be a boon, not a weakness. xkcd's characters are "a man" "a woman" "a man with a hat".
The internet may contain a lot of slush, but I think that slush would exist anyway, only now we get the opportunity to see it.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But yes, someone illustrate Scott's comic!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)