Which of the following people have achieved something truly valuable in their lives?
1) Someone who wins a Nobel prize in science. 2) Someone who becomes president or prime minister of a major democratic nation. 3) Someone who gives their life in the service of god. 4) Someone who makes a great deal of money. 4a) ...and donates it to valuable causes. 5) Someone who has a strong and lasting relationship with someone they love. 5a) Someone who has a strong and lasting homosexual relationship with someone they love.
I'll post my answers after some other people have had a chance to make up their own minds. Please explain why you give the answers you give!
I think these are interesting questions. I already posted them to another forum, but I think that some of the people here will have a very different perspective. Also, this seemed like an appropriate thing to discuss on this forum, as OSC has certainly touched on some of these issues in his fiction. I'm thinking especially of the Ribeira family, and the different life paths chosen by Lauro (Olhado), Estevao (Quim) and the rest of their family, but I imagine similar issues have been touched upon elsewhere (perhaps in Women of Genesis? which I haven't read).
(In case you are wondering, no this isn't for a research project or anything. It's just something I was thinking about while walking home today, and listening to Speaker for the Dead on my iPod.)
[ April 04, 2007, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: skeptical scientist ]
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I say number five (for me). Having grown up in a lower-middle class family, money was never very important. We always had enough. We always took a family vacation and Christmas was always special. My favorite memories from my childhood are at the softball field. My parents coached, my sisters played, and I was the bat boy.
I am coaching my ten year old in softball now. I can see why my parents did it. It is so much fun.
I can think of another topic, maybe a 3a. Someone who gives their life for others (soldiers, firemen, police, etc.)
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
Narrow set of choices there. Are you talking about specific people?
I would say someone who loves other people and lives their life trying to help them.
Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
By the way, I didn't mean you had to choose only one. Several of these might qualify, to you, as something truly valuable, and you're encouraged to say why all of the ones which seem valuable do, and why the ones which don't, don't.
There are certainly many ways to do something valuable with your life; I merely mentioned these few to get discussion started, and because they're what I thought of.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
4, 5 and 5a.
1. Simply winning a nobel prize doesn't mean anything. Their work would have to lead somewhere.
2. Feh.
3. Depends on what their god is having them do. Feeding the poor is (usually) a good thing. Blowing people up isn't.
4. Usually (but not always) someone who makes a vast sum of money earned it by providing an essential good or service.
4a. Depends on to whom they're giving their money and what that person ends up doing with it. Often times, charity hurts its recipient more than it helps.
5 and 5a. Probably the most fulfilling and important thing in the world.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:What is a valuable use of your life?
Depends. How many virgins do I get in the afterlife?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:What is a valuable use of your life?
Depends. How many virgins do I get in the afterlife?
Depends. How long do you want them to stay virgins?
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
Arguments could definately be made for all of those, depending on where your interests lie and how you lead your life.
For me, I think that 5&5a are the most valuable things that can be attained in life.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
5.
I don't include 5a, simply because I don't think 5 and 5a are mutually exclusive, and I see no reason to single out one type of meaningful interpersonal relationship for special significance.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:What is a valuable use of your life?
Depends. How many virgins do I get in the afterlife?
Depends. How long do you want them to stay virgins?
They don't return to their virginal state each night? Bah, what's with this defective afterlife?
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
There are no answers. Do what you like, and don't mess up anyone else's chances.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Pretty subjective question. Pretty limited list. What's the point?
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
quote:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:What is a valuable use of your life?
Depends. How many virgins do I get in the afterlife?
Depends. How long do you want them to stay virgins?
They don't return to their virginal state each night? Bah, what's with this defective afterlife?
Sure they do, it's in West Virgina. Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
Of the things I originally put down, I would say 1, 5, and 5a, but not any of the others. As for the objection Pixiest had to 1, "Simply winning a nobel prize doesn't mean anything. Their work would have to lead somewhere," I would agree that simply winning the Nobel prize isn't in and of itself valuable, but in order to win a Nobel, your research itself would have to be important and interesting enough to be a valuable accomplishment itself. So a person who wins a Nobel has achieved something truly valuable in life - the Nobel itself is not that achievement, but is merely a symbol of it.
The reason I distinguished 5 and 5a is because there are many people who think that homosexual relationships are not on equal footing with heterosexual relationships, even though I regard them as equally valuable.
As for 2, I think that it can help one achieve many valuable things, but is not, in and of itself, a valuable accomplishment, and there are people who are elected and then do nothing of value, or even do great evil (I think I'll pick Andrew Jackson as my example here, since whatever disagreements there may be over politics, most of us would agree that genocide is a bad thing.)
For 3, well suffice it to say that I'm an atheist, so I don't think it's possible to give ones life in the "service of god". The closest people can come is to give their life in what they believe is the service of god, and while undoubtedly good could come of such an act, recent history suggests that martyrs are vastly more likely to cause enormous suffering than they are to do anything worthwhile.
For 4, I don't think anything really needs to be said. Money itself does not make a life valuable, and charitable contributions don't redeem a valueless life.
Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Pretty subjective question. Pretty limited list. What's the point?
Yes it's a subjective question, and that's the whole point. I already know my answers, but I was curious about others. And yes it's a limited list. Should I have tried to list all possible things that one could do with ones life which someone might think is valuable? The point is that this is a question that some people might enjoy discussing. If you don't, then don't.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:They don't return to their virginal state each night? Bah, what's with this defective afterlife?
*hands Icky a dictionary*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
1) Someone who wins a Nobel prize in science.Could be. Depends on what it was for and what could be done or understood as a result of it. 2) Someone who becomes president or prime minister of a major democratic nation. Could be. Depends on what they did with the power they had when they had it. 3) Someone who gives their life in the service of god. Could be. Depends on whether or not the service was something God asked of them and on what they did as service. 4) Someone who makes a great deal of money. You know, could be. Depends on how they made their money and what they did to help others along the way. I think that creating jobs and enabling other people to support their lives and families is a good thing. It can be done badly, of course, but it can also be done well. 4a) ...and donates it to valuable causes. Could be. Depends on if they were valuable and effective causes. 5) Someone who has a strong and lasting relationship with someone they love. Yes.
However, ALL of the above have some value of some sort. It is nice to think that earthly success and money don't matter at all, but while we may say it, people generally don't live that. Some things matter more than others, but none of the above are really worthless. If the answer is whether or not a life is a success, it depends on the whole of the life, not just any one given accomplishment.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Personally I value 5 the highest, but I'd add to that, raise a child successfully, or maybe just tie that all into "Have a loving family."
If I did everything on that list, I'd be the most proud of five. If I could only pick one thing on that list to do for myself, I'd pick five.
I've always loved the snippet from I think Children of the Mind where Andrew is talking to Olhado about being the only one of Novinha's children to not pursue science, and Andrew says he's a full time father who works as a brick maker to support his real job. Olhado's choice of profession is much what I see myself wanting when I'm old enough to have it. And I think it's the most valuable, long lasting thing I could do with my life.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by skeptical scientist: The reason I distinguished 5 and 5a is because there are many people who think that homosexual relationships are not on equal footing with heterosexual relationships, even though I regard them as equally valuable.
My problem now, then, is that I see you limiting 5 to romantic relationships only.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by skeptical scientist:
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Pretty subjective question. Pretty limited list. What's the point?
Yes it's a subjective question, and that's the whole point. I already know my answers, but I was curious about others. And yes it's a limited list. Should I have tried to list all possible things that one could do with ones life which someone might think is valuable? The point is that this is a question that some people might enjoy discussing. If you don't, then don't.
Okay, I get it.
Here's a question. You don't believe in God, and so you don't think that a life in service to God is valuable. But what if you're wrong and God does exist? And then what if it's true the only value in life really is service to Him? I know you're just expressing your opinion. I'm just wondering; what if you're wrong?
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: There are no answers. Do what you like, and don't mess up anyone else's chances.
I like this alot.
Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: My problem now, then, is that I see you limiting 5 to romantic relationships only.
I do admit that's what I principally had in mind, but I didn't mean to restrict it to that. But I can certainly see people as saying that 5 is valuable except in the case of 5a, which is a "sin in the eyes of god" punishable by death and permanent damnation. I distinguished them partly because there are a fair amount of Mormons on this board, who regard a strong and healthy family life as one of the most important parts of life, but homosexuality as a sin.
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Here's a question. You don't believe in God, and so you don't think that a life in service to God is valuable. But what if you're wrong and God does exist? And then what if it's true the only value in life really is service to Him? I know you're just expressing your opinion. I'm just wondering; what if you're wrong?
I not only don't believe in god, I actively believe in his nonexistence, so I really don't spend a lot of time worrying that I'm wrong. In fact, I worry about this quite a bit less than I worry that I seem to be running out of socks without holes; it's not exactly high on my list of priorities. Do you spend a lot of time, or in fact any time at all, worrying that Allah is going to condemn you to some extremely unpleasant fate because you don't happen to be a Muslim? (If you are Muslim, feel free to substitute some other deity who is said to be equally vindictive towards nonbelievers; there are several to choose from.) What if you're wrong?
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
Not God again...
Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
Sorry Tara, I intended this thread to be more about valuable life goals, but of course when people discuss whats valuable in life, religion tends to take part in the conversation, but there are also things that people of every religion can agree are valuable. (As expected, #5 on my list is just such a source of agreement, but religion tends to be a source of disagreement in the case of 5a.) Resh asked me a question, and I answered; I'm happy to leave it at that.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Can I be the first to say that I think that most, if not all, of these 'options' I see as being truly valuable. I think there are any number of way to have a valuable life and to achieve 'success', far more than can be listed.
I believe that a good and meaningful life filled with "truly valuable achievements" touches on a variety of areas and- whether the life is a prominent or obscure one- works for good in a thousand or one different ways.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I think that putting too much effort into living a "valuable" life can easily take away from the pleasure of just living.
Having goals is well and good, but attempting to arbitrarily decide that your life will have more or less worth if you do or do not accomplish specific things seems like a recipe for disappointment in the long term.
I think that my life has an immeasurable amount of value already, because it's the only one I get. Every second of it is the most valuable thing I'll ever have.
Anything that happens or doesn't is just details.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:What is a valuable use of your life?
Depends. How many virgins do I get in the afterlife?
Depends. How long do you want them to stay virgins?
They don't return to their virginal state each night? Bah, what's with this defective afterlife?
You ditch them and get some NEW virgins. Ah-duh!
With the demands coming in, I'm sure the heavens have a steady supply.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
You get all the virgins you want, but they all look like this http://tinyurl.com/qsuaj Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote: As for the objection Pixiest had to 1, "Simply winning a nobel prize doesn't mean anything. Their work would have to lead somewhere," I would agree that simply winning the Nobel prize isn't in and of itself valuable, but in order to win a Nobel, your research itself would have to be important and interesting enough to be a valuable accomplishment itself. So a person who wins a Nobel has achieved something truly valuable in life - the Nobel itself is not that achievement, but is merely a symbol of it.
I realize you're talking about a Nobel Prize in Science rather than the Peace Prize... but when Yasser Arafat won, the Nobel committee lost all credibility with me.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: You get all the virgins you want, but they all look like this http://tinyurl.com/qsuaj
That's pretty sexy. <3
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:Can I be the first to say that I think that most, if not all, of these 'options' I see as being truly valuable. I think there are any number of way to have a valuable life and to achieve 'success', far more than can be listed.
I believe that a good and meaningful life filled with "truly valuable achievements" touches on a variety of areas and- whether the life is a prominent or obscure one- works for good in a thousand or one different ways.
Posted by Feer (Member # 9846) on :
I dont see why 5 and 5a have to be separated. some one you love is someone you love.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Soylent Green!
-Bok
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Feer: SS addressed this. Some people apply lesser or even negative value to homosexual romantic love.
Posted by Feer (Member # 9846) on :
Oh... thanks
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I realize you're talking about a Nobel Prize in Science rather than the Peace Prize... but when Yasser Arafat won, the Nobel committee lost all credibility with me.
The Peace Prize is handed out by a subcommitte of the Norwegian Storting, and they are politicians and sometimes inclined to make a political gesture for home consumption. The various science prizes, however, are handed out by the Swedish Royal Academy, and they are scientists and have no need to consider politics.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I don't see parenting on that list. I consider that my life is valuable and worthwhile if I have raised my children to be productive members of society, who themselves will contribute worthwhile things to the world. Productive parenting is a hard, sometimes thankless job but it is also one where you can make a tremendous difference in the world.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I think parenting falls under #5
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I think that putting too much effort into living a "valuable" life can easily take away from the pleasure of just living.
Having goals is well and good, but attempting to arbitrarily decide that your life will have more or less worth if you do or do not accomplish specific things seems like a recipe for disappointment in the long term.
I think that my life has an immeasurable amount of value already, because it's the only one I get. Every second of it is the most valuable thing I'll ever have.
Anything that happens or doesn't is just details.
Yeah, this is true, but I think one of the reasons this thread was started was because, for a lot of people, they need to feel like their life matters in some way, or else they're not happy.
I know this is true for me. I have plenty of people and things around me to make me happy, and I take pleasure in a lot of things, but sometimes I feel unworthy of happiness if I think that I haven't spent enough of my life helping others. For me, helping others is a way of feeling like I deserve to be here. The feeling I get after I spend time making someone else's life better is a kind of peace that I get from nothing else in the world.
I can't get true pleasure from "just living" because I know that there are plenty of people in the world for whom "just living" is not a good thing.
Sometimes I look at people (like some of my friends) who have recieved awards for their community service, and I feel like a totally horrible person for not doing that myself.
But I think the answer to that, and maybe to this thread in general, is that every person has their own way, big or little, in which they can help the world, and there are plenty of ways that each person can live their lives so they don't hurt other people too much.
You just have to find your own way, and then you can be happy. Don't worry about taking a vote from the rest of the community, just find your own thing.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Feer: SS addressed this. Some people apply lesser or even negative value to homosexual romantic love.
I understand this is his reasoning. However, I think it behooves those of us who do not harbor such negativity and self-superiority to refrain from making concessions to it.
In other words, if someone really feels that homosexual relationships are inferior and should be singled out and addressed separately in such questions, it should be left to them to create their own schisms. Why legitimize an opinion you do not hold yourself by doing their work for them?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
6) achieved immortality through wisdom, now walks the planes
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
Achieved something valuable...to who?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Good point, Karl. Of course you're right.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tara:
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I think that putting too much effort into living a "valuable" life can easily take away from the pleasure of just living.
Having goals is well and good, but attempting to arbitrarily decide that your life will have more or less worth if you do or do not accomplish specific things seems like a recipe for disappointment in the long term.
I think that my life has an immeasurable amount of value already, because it's the only one I get. Every second of it is the most valuable thing I'll ever have.
Anything that happens or doesn't is just details.
Yeah, this is true, but I think one of the reasons this thread was started was because, for a lot of people, they need to feel like their life matters in some way, or else they're not happy.
I know this is true for me. I have plenty of people and things around me to make me happy, and I take pleasure in a lot of things, but sometimes I feel unworthy of happiness if I think that I haven't spent enough of my life helping others. For me, helping others is a way of feeling like I deserve to be here. The feeling I get after I spend time making someone else's life better is a kind of peace that I get from nothing else in the world.
I can't get true pleasure from "just living" because I know that there are plenty of people in the world for whom "just living" is not a good thing.
Sometimes I look at people (like some of my friends) who have recieved awards for their community service, and I feel like a totally horrible person for not doing that myself.
But I think the answer to that, and maybe to this thread in general, is that every person has their own way, big or little, in which they can help the world, and there are plenty of ways that each person can live their lives so they don't hurt other people too much.
You just have to find your own way, and then you can be happy. Don't worry about taking a vote from the rest of the community, just find your own thing.
That's beautiful. Really. You didn't say anything new or profound, and yet, your words touched me.
You're both right, of course. Purpose and value are subjective concepts right down to the core. As for me, I'm in a constant struggle with this subject, and I doubt it will ever end. This is one area where I'm actually quite envious of most religious folk. As an atheist, I don't have access to such pre-ordained goals on which theists can so confidently rest. All of the achievements/goals mentioned in this thread are perfectly legitimate in their own ways, but what do such things ultimately bring? What makes them valuable? For the confident theist, the answer is simple. The atheist, on the other hand, is limited to such vague and mundane responses as "the prosperity of the human race." Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trivializing this view. I just think it creates more questions than it answers. It’s not finite. It’s not satisfying.
My simple answer to the original question is #5 (romantically specific). There is nothing in this world more deeply gratifying or meaningful than the compassion, trust, and humility that exists between two people in love.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
There should also be
5c) Someone who has a strong and lasting bisexual relationship with two people they love.
rawr!
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
Now those guys lived meaningful lives.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think you left off a big one, joy, happiness, having fun.
"Men are, that they might have joy." I believe that's true. Feynman's Nobel acceptance speech said it all. He did physics because it was really fun finding things out. The awards and accolades were nice in some ways but also rather annoying in many ways, and didn't mean very much. <heart> Feynman.
One of the ways people find real and lasting joy is service to others. Another is building things, creating things, like it could be art, music or stories or else machinery, buildings, roads and bridges, or even clothes, quilts or personal effects. Making stuff is fun.
Giving presents (and the flip-side, receiving) is also meaningful. Not because of the thing given but because of the gift. The most meaningful gifts of all are attention, time, and affection/acceptance/appreciation. Gifts that say "I see you and know who you are, and I like who you are" are the best. I wish I knew how to give gifts that say that.
The other things you list, like money and fame, power and privilege (or hawt virgins ) all seem attractive really only when you don't have them. People who acquire these things usually find they still aren't enough to fill up the emptiness. The money is never enough, and turns out to be a full time job just having it, and fame means people who care nothing about you personally as a human being are always interrupting your dinners out to ask for your autograph. Power means people fawn on you for your power and despise you for your self, or else they are gunning for you to take your power away. It's always uneasy because it's never enough or else it's never safe. Privilege is something that you don't even realize you have until it's taken away. Then you feel worthless without it. <laughs> Pursuing these things, then, leaves you with nothing.
What is worthwhile and lasting and meaningful to pursue is a thing I like to call "the kingdom of heaven" (as a sort of secret codename). It is the joy that comes from serving people, from building and making, and from learning, playfulness, looking forward with a perfect brightness of hope, healthy growth, and wise stewardship of resources, many acts of kindness, and lots of love for and appreciation of others.
[ April 06, 2007, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 10082) on :
I am going to go with answer #5.
I think we should try to love as many people as we can. But if you are not ready to do this, then just try to love one person with all your heart
quote:For 4, I don't think anything really needs to be said. Money itself does not make a life valuable, and charitable contributions don't redeem a valueless life. [/QB]
May I be cursed with wealth and never recover.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by rollainm: This is one area where I'm actually quite envious of most religious folk. As an atheist, I don't have access to such pre-ordained goals on which theists can so confidently rest. All of the achievements/goals mentioned in this thread are perfectly legitimate in their own ways, but what do such things ultimately bring? What makes them valuable? For the confident theist, the answer is simple. The atheist, on the other hand, is limited to such vague and mundane responses as "the prosperity of the human race." Don’t get me wrong. I’m not trivializing this view. I just think it creates more questions than it answers. It’s not finite. It’s not satisfying.
When you're young, the first Christmas you realize Santa isn't going to bring you a present seems pretty lame. But when you're spending time with your friends and family, one less present doesn't make the time worthless. It doesn't make the other presents less meaningful.
When you first realize that there isn't a magic old man in the clouds who will punish the wicked and reward the good, it's a disappointment. That guy who cut you off in traffic won't get what's coming to him in the fiery inferno of Satan's halls, and you won't get an extra gold brick in your heavenly driveway for helping that old lady across the street.
So you make your own value, and you find value in what YOU want, not in what a several thousand year old books tells you was valuable to the people who wrote it.
You don't have to hedge your bets against an unknown afterlife. You get to live for the day. You get to do good for good's own sake, not to appease a vengeful God. You avoid doing bad things because you realize that they hurt you and those around you, not for fear of eternal damnation.
Listen to religious people. They don't know what's going on any more than atheists do. They're struggling for meaning, trying to find their path, and they have a guide book. We're all in the same boat. I don't think anyone would argue that the love of family and friends is any more valuable to someone of one belief than someone of another.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Do we have to rank them? I hope for my own successful life to have at a minimum two of the list and preferably four.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
You do your best, you try to do the right thing, and that's enough. That's a worthwhile life.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: When you first realize that there isn't a magic old man in the clouds who will punish the wicked and reward the good, it's a disappointment. That guy who cut you off in traffic won't get what's coming to him in the fiery inferno of Satan's halls, and you won't get an extra gold brick in your heavenly driveway for helping that old lady across the street.
While this may describe many, even most religious types, it is not necessarily the correct way to exercise one's faith. The lesson that pastors and ministers try to drill into their flocks is that everything you do should be for the sake of the glory of God, and should have nothing to do with one's own fears or desires. That doesn't mean it's easy do disregard those feelings, but it's tricky because if you tithe, perform charitable acts, or just generally be nice to people, but you do these things out of fear of Hell or desire for Heaven, well, you're not doing it for God. You're doing it for yourself.
quote:
So you make your own value, and you find value in what YOU want, not in what a several thousand year old books tells you was valuable to the people who wrote it.
That is a very simplistic view of the bible and it's influence on christians and jews today. (Irony alert- I'm saying this:) You might try to understand why we believe the way we do rather than demean us for our beliefs.
quote:
You don't have to hedge your bets against an unknown afterlife. You get to live for the day. You get to do good for good's own sake, not to appease a vengeful God. You avoid doing bad things because you realize that they hurt you and those around you, not for fear of eternal damnation.
Listen to religious people. They don't know what's going on any more than atheists do. They're struggling for meaning, trying to find their path, and they have a guide book. We're all in the same boat. I don't think anyone would argue that the love of family and friends is any more valuable to someone of one belief than someone of another.
But see? It looks like you know what you're talking about after all!
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle:
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow:
So you make your own value, and you find value in what YOU want, not in what a several thousand year old books tells you was valuable to the people who wrote it.
That is a very simplistic view of the bible and it's influence on christians and jews today. (Irony alert- I'm saying this:) You might try to understand why we believe the way we do rather than demean us for our beliefs.
Did you expect a ten page cited essay? An atheist's passing reference to the Bible (or any other religious doctrine for that matter) is probably going to be rather simplistic because, to be honest, we're just not that concerned with it. And how exactly was MightyCow's statement demeaning? It wasn't directed at, nor did it concern, Christians or Jews. It was directed at me, an atheist (or to anyone else that might find such advice applicable). Grow up. Stop trying to instigate. Before you start getting all pretentious over something you don’t agree with, why don’t you try understanding the context in which the words were used?
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Well, before you tell me to "grow up," you might want to... ahem... gain some life experience.
I may be wrong to find it demeaning that someone insinuates that a book, which I believe to be the single most influentual source of wisdom this world has or ever will see, is simply a "several thousand year old book... [that] tells you [what] was valuable to the people who wrote it," but that seems preety damn demeaning to me. But I'm not gonna complain; for reasons obvious to some of the more venerable members here (like KoM.)
And if that "passing reference" was about a book that bears "little concern" for you, then I would suggest that you not reference it whatsoever, since you have expressed little knowledge of its contents.
To make it easy for you: "Why would you, a sociologist, care what niggers think about economic theory?"
You are basically saying that an African-American should not be offended at that statement, because he was not involved in the discussion.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
1. You assume quite a lot. What kinds of life experiences exactly do you think I’m lacking? You know nothing about me, so don’t judge me based on my experiences.
2. MightyCow never implied that the Bible was “simply” (your word) a “several thousand year old book... [that] tells you [what] was valuable to the people who wrote it” (MightyCow’s words with your insertions). The Bible IS (at least in parts) “several thousand years old” and it certainly DOES tell you “[what] was valuable to the people who wrote it.” He never said “simply.” You did. He didn’t insinuate. You did. Whether or not he believes this is the Bible’s only significance is an opinion he’s perfectly entitled to – and it says absolutely nothing of his experience or lack thereof.
3. “But I'm not gonna complain; for reasons obvious to some of the more venerable members here (like KoM.)” What is this…filler? FYI, no one’s judging you on your word count.
4. Thanks for the suggestion, but I think I’ll continue to reference what I need to get my points or ideas across. Again, you know nothing about me. I never expressed (prior to this post) ANY amount of knowledge of the Bible, great or small. Ironically, it is precisely my knowledge of (and experience with) Christianity that provoked my “loss of faith” in the first place.
5. Your crude argument by example is completely ridiculous. Neither I nor MightyCow made such insulting references to African-Americans or any other race, culture, or religion. Even if an insult to the Bible could somehow be construed, a book, no matter how holy you might believe it to be, is not a person.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Dude, you need to relax! I don't get it, especially after your first post on this thread, where you wrote some really nice things. Then you just jump all over me saying I trying to instigate and that I need to grow up. I thought my response to MightyCow was perfectly appropriate. I was being self-deprecating, and I wrapped it up with a compliment.
It looks to me like you have a problem with religious-types. Maybe you are instilling in me all the negative attributes that you have observed in other who are not atheists? Don't worry, I do the same thing.
My crude argument? Would you tell a black man that he shouldn't have been insulted? I doubt it. But you obviously feel that Christians can be demeaned and looked down upon, if they respond, come at them with both barrels blazing, as you are doing.
Word count? What the hell are you on about, anyway?
[edit] I need to throw this in: "Even if an insult to the Bible could somehow be construed, a book, no matter how holy you might believe it to be, is not a person.
I should not be insulted? Me personally- no, I shouldn't. I'm much worse than you with this sort of thing. But I am going to point it out anyway, because you probably have this attitude all the time, and don't understand why people get so frustrated.
oh, man, the irony is killing me!!!!! Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I appreciate the kind words rollainm, but I generally just try to ignore posts that don't actually address what I said, put words into my mouth, and then make outrageous slanders. You can't really win an argument with the other person is making things up.
Regardless, I do believe that the Bible a) is a book, b) was written, in its separate parts, a few thousand years ago, c) has not been updated, rewritten, or edited since that time, and thus contains a great deal of information that may be valuable from a historical standpoint, but also contains many pieces of advice which we should completely ignore, such as Paul's concern that women not speak in church.
True, the Bible has lots of moral guidance, but other belief systems, including atheism, have come to the same basic conclusions, that it's not good to murder people for example, without using the Bible. I understand that some people find it valuable, but it's entirely possible to live a full, wonderful life without directly following the Bible.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
So you didn't mean to be insulting. I accept that. Do you not see how one might have been insulted?
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
I’m perfectly relaxed, thank you. Granted, my first response to you may have been a little direct. Perhaps this was overly influenced by your past contributions to this forum, but you do have an undeniable reputation for being an instigator.
What don’t you get? I provided my input on the topic at hand. MightyCow responded to the concerns I expressed with his own advice. You then made an unnecessarily condescending criticism (see #2 in my previous post) of his word choice, accusing him of being ignorantly religiously intolerant because he did not reference the Bible in a manner you felt was not as all-encompassing as it should have been. This is where I had a problem, though admittedly my response could have been a little nicer. Perhaps you did hit a nerve with me, but it certainly is not the one you now insinuate. I don’t have a problem with “religious-types,” nor do I think I’m somehow better or smarter than those with religious beliefs. I have a problem with the way you personally express your beliefs.
Let me clarify something that for whatever reason you don’t seem to understand. I’m not saying you shouldn’t express your opinion on something you disagree with if it isn’t addressed to you personally. You have every right to do so. I have a problem with your condescending delivery and your unnecessary and unjustified insinuations.
“Would you tell a black man that he shouldn’t have been insulted?”
By the example you gave? No, of course not. Would I tell a Christian that he shouldn’t have been insulted by a reference to the Bible because it did not meet his approval? I believe I just did.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: So you didn't mean to be insulting. I accept that. Do you not see how one might have been insulted?
Does it occur to you that, if people are going to be insulted by honest opinion, it's not worth worrying about insulting them?
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Does it occur to me? Have you read my previous posts on this forum? Like rollainm pointed out, I don't seem to be very worried about insulting people. It looks to me like we're just three people who are made for each other. [Borat voice:] I like you guys!
Rollainm, I wasn't being condescending. I really don't want to get into this argument again, because it's been beaten to death: just because you took something I said to be condescending doesn't mean I was being condescending. I found MightyCow's statement insulting. I made it clear that it really didn't bother me, or at least I thought I made it clear- with the final statement I made in that post. He said he didn't mean it to be insulting. I have no problem with that.
But you just jumped in out of nowhere. I don't recall ever even being engaged by you before. But here you are, telling me to grow up and to stop instigating things. Now again, I don't have a problem with that. If I did, then I wouldn't be able to excuse myself. It's just an internet forum, though some have expressed that to them it is more. I understand that.
So what the hell am I arguing with you about? Oh, yeah. You guys are sooooo intolerant. What's your friggin problem with Christians? You think you're better than us? You think you know better than us? You believe we evolved from monkeys? Maybe you did, but God made me. Am I forgeting anything? ... Stop killing babies, you Nazis!!!
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
Neither of you are going to win this...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:You think you're better than us? You think you know better than us?
Yes, as a matter of fact I do believe that.
quote:Maybe you did, but God made me.
Or more accurately, you think your god made you, from mud. So we're both monkeys - but one of us knows it. And, which is more, I'm a bigger and better monkey than you are, and more popular with the females.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
But I have better grammar. So there!
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
And I'm out...
Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
I think we've wandered a bit off-topic. But since we seem to have gotten ourselves into a hole, I may as well dig it a bit deeper.
Most atheists think that strongly religious people are just a little bit nuts. To us, people who deny evolution seem just as crazy as people who think aliens are sending them messages through their dental hardware seem to you. Both groups of people believe strongly in a statement about the nature of the world, despite a singular lack of evidence. To deny a theory for which there is a great deal of evidence (evolution) because you believe in a contradictory theory with no evidence (creation of separate species by god) is, to us, bizarre.
The more polite among us keep our mouths shut, hoping that we can coexist more easily that way, since it is clear that peaceful coexistence is necessary if we are to survive, at least for the foreseeable future. The less polite among us frequently offend you by simply being open and honest about what we actually believe, for what seem to us to be good reasons. But we're all increasingly flabbergasted that religious people have parlayed their ignorance into a virtue, and elevated certain beliefs into those which cannot be questioned?
Why is it that some personal beliefs are cause for mockery and psychiatric treatment, and others cannot be discussed openly and honestly in polite discourse without those who argue on one side of the issue being labeled intolerant? After all, there's nothing prejudicial about being an atheist. Atheists are generally the opposite of prejudicial, which means judging in the absence of evidence; above all, the one thing that unifies atheists is that they want evidence before granting credulity.
Posted by Tara (Member # 10030) on :
quote: Originally posted by skeptical scientist: The less polite among us frequently offend you by simply being open and honest about what we actually believe, for what seem to us to be good reasons.
That's not impolite.
Otherwise, a very good description.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Well, I don't think it is bizarre that you believe in evolution. I just think you've been horribly deceived. As for me believing in something for which not a shred of evidence exists, I would ask you to re-examine that opinion. Evidence is not always physical in nature. Just because you haven't felt the presence of God within your very heart doesn't mean I'm just imagining it.
In fact, I have circumstantial evidence that supports my belief: That feeling of vast emptiness you have inside of you? You know what I'm talking about. I don't have that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Resh, I'm assuming that last paragraph is a feeble attempt at humor...?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Conversely, just because you have a vast feeling of emptiness inside your skull doesn't mean I need your imaginary Valium.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I felt that presence within me too Resh, but I came to conclusion that it was gas, and when I stopped believing in God, the feeling of awesome power never left.
Either God is cool with me being a damn, dirty atheist, or it's a self-created feeling of fullness, which anyone with self-confidence and personal pride can have.
How vast can the emptiness within a person really be? I've taken lots of biology courses, and there isn't that much empty room. Eat a good meal, and you're almost completely full.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think a valuable use of my life is insulting people who believe obviously silly things on an internet forum. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
MightyCow, I just wanted to say I think you're handling yourself very well here, and I'm glad to know you.
The original question, about the value of how we spend our lives... I've pondered this a bit recently, and I have to say that I wish to live my life by concious choice. To Be Here Now, and to operate from a place of love. Love for life, and for my fellow creatures. Not there yet, but it is something to aspire to, certainly.
I think some people achieve that way of living through religion, while others use their religion as another way to feel to superior to everyone else, or to feel that they are more blessed or righteous than others.
But, dang. I'll put up with a dozen like Fred Phelps for every Mother Teresa or Desmond Tutu, and call it a bargain.
Great souls seem (to me, at least) to have certain characteristics in common. Sometimes it is tied to a religion, sometimes not. *shrug*
But, really, I would just like to be someone who stops to listen. Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I think a valuable use of my life is insulting people who believe obviously silly things on an internet forum.
I can get behind that.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I felt that presence within me too Resh, but I came to conclusion that it was gas, and when I stopped believing in God, the feeling of awesome power never left.
Either God is cool with me being a damn, dirty atheist, or it's a self-created feeling of fullness, which anyone with self-confidence and personal pride can have.
How vast can the emptiness within a person really be? I've taken lots of biology courses, and there isn't that much empty room. Eat a good meal, and you're almost completely full.
By all indications, you believe your existence is entirely physical. That seems pretty empty to me.
Posted by DevilDreamt (Member # 10242) on :
How can life be empty when it's filled with physicality?
Do you propose we fill life with some sort of soul that we can't touch, taste, see, smell or hear? I don't see how having a soul would make existence any less empty than not having one.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I guess my life would be more "full" if I could ride a dragon while shooting fireballs from my fingertips and dancing with faeries on the surface of a diamond lake.
Even without the imaginary friends, I find my life to be extremely fulfilling and meaningful. I'm sorry that you don't seem to be satisfied with what's in front of you.
Posted by skeptical scientist (Member # 10369) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: Well, I don't think it is bizarre that you believe in evolution. I just think you've been horribly deceived. As for me believing in something for which not a shred of evidence exists, I would ask you to re-examine that opinion. Evidence is not always physical in nature. Just because you haven't felt the presence of God within your very heart doesn't mean I'm just imagining it.
I don't deny that you feel something which you believe is the presence of god. Certainly people have feelings which they describe as spiritual, and often attribute to god. I merely question whether that qualifies as evidence that god exists. You attribute this feeling to god mainly because other people around you have said that god is the source of this feeling inside them, and so forth back for hundreds or thousands of years. In fact, the most obvious reason why people associate these feelings with the existence of a deity is because thousands of years ago they became associated, and this association has been passed down through the centuries. But people thousands of years ago thought many things which turned out to be false, so that hardly counts as evidence.
Spiritual experience can have many sources. Some achieve it through prayer. Some achieve it through meditation. Some achieve it through hallucinogens. Einstein seems to have achieved it through doing physics, based on his identification of the nature of reality with the concept of god.
The mere fact of spiritual experience is not evidence of the existence of god, nor is it dependent on belief in the supernatural.
quote:In fact, I have circumstantial evidence that supports my belief: That feeling of vast emptiness you have inside of you? You know what I'm talking about. I don't have that.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about; I am aware of no such feeling of emptiness.
One of the purposes of this thread was to determine what types of things people consider important, and what people in this thread have consistently found to be the most important are various types of interpersonal relationships. Atheists often claim to be very fulfilled, and if asked to point to a source of their fulfillment, they will often point to interpersonal relationships. If we are to use anecdotal evidence to judge, these can be just as fulfilling as any personal sense of a relationship with god.
[ April 09, 2007, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: skeptical scientist ]
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:In fact, I have circumstantial evidence that supports my belief: That feeling of vast emptiness you have inside of you? You know what I'm talking about. I don't have that.
This is unwittingly the funniest thing you've ever said on this forum.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: By all indications, you believe your existence is entirely physical. That seems pretty empty to me.
Do you see the important word in this sentence, which indicates that you should not be projecting onto other peoples' feelings?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
It seems to me that the answer to "What is a valuable use of your life?" depends almost entirely on a more fundamental question: What is valuable? And I am certain that I cannot offer any answer to that second question which will satisfy everyone reading this, or give any proof to completely justify what I believe. However, I can tell you what I think....
I think there are many things that people value, varying from one person to the next. Some people love their husband or wife. Some people care most about their children. Some love their career. Some love a work of art. Some love money. Some love themselves. Some love excellence in a sport. Some love humanity as a whole. Some love God. And almost all of us care deeply about our own health and happiness. In truth, I think it is possible to love anything. Who is right and who is wrong?
I don't think anyone is right and anyone is wrong. It doesn't really matter what you love. Instead, what matters is the love itself - the value that you assign to things. I believe that value itself is the one thing that is fundamentally valuable in itself. There are different names for "value" - love, passion, enthusiasm, etc. - but it is only this, the meaning that we assign to things that is ultimately, absolutely, objectively, and inherently meaningful. Or, in other words, it is not the work of art that is valuable, but rather the value we assign to it that is truly valuable.
But, the way I see it, there is a corollary to the above claim. It stems from the fact that you need a person in order for that person to value things. Without conscious beings like us, there would be nobody to love things, and thus there would be no value in this world. We make the world meaningful. For that reason, I believe we can conclude that we too are inherently valuable, because value arises from us. The same would go for any conscious, experiencing being capable of passion or love - whether it be human beings, aliens, animals, or God.
So, in summary, my belief is that there are two things that are inherently valuable in the world: (1) Value itself, and (2) the people who create value by caring about things. These two things are inseperable. All other value in the world stems indirectly from those fundamental goods, based on what we choose to assign value to. This is my opinion.
So how does this help me answer "What is a valuable use of your life"? I think it leads to three conclusions. Firstly, a valuable use of your life is the pursuit of something, ANYTHING, that you find deeply valuable. For many people that might be raising a family. For others it might mean pursuing the solution to a scientific problem. For others it might be somthings entirely different. It doesn't matter. What matters objectively speaking is that it matters to you. Secondly, a valuable use of your life is helping others pursue something, ANYTHING, that they find deeply valuable. Again, that varies from person to person. What mattes objectively speaking is that it matters to them. And thirdly, the MOST inherently valuable use of your life is what combines both of the first conclusions most successfully - whatever allows you to puruse what deeply matters to you while simultaneously helping others to pursue what deeply matters to them.
I happen to think certain things do this better than others. Selfishness tends to let you pursue your own concerns, but cancels that out by hurting the ability of others to pursue their own concerns. Conversely (and far more rarely), I think excessive selflessness often lets others pursue their own concerns, but cancels that out by hurting your own ability to pursue your own concerns. The ideal, I think, is to align your concerns with the concerns with others, so the two become one and the same. And the way to do this, I think, is through relationships. Husbands and wives, parents and children, friends - these relationships allow people to care deeply about one another, in a way where the fulfillment of one person automatically makes the other happy as well.
So, almost anything can be a valuable use of your life, if you or someone else cares deeply about whatever it is you are doing. But many of these passions, such as artistic endeavors, scientific research, or a personal challenge, are often solitary, one-sided passions. Thus if you want to know the MOST valuable uses of your life, I think they are the mutual relationships that allow different people to care about one another. I think it is the love or friendship that one person has for another. Love thy neighbor and you have a lived a valuable life, almost no matter what else you do. Care about nothing and you have wasted your life.
But that is just my opinion on the matter.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
So in other words, value is subjective. Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Reshpeckobiggle: By all indications, you believe your existence is entirely physical. That seems pretty empty to me.
Do you see the important word in this sentence, which indicates that you should not be projecting onto other peoples' feelings?
Is?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:So in other words, value is subjective.
Not exactly. Value is objectively and absolutely valuable, as are the people who create it. The only thing that is subjective is what those people draw value from.
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Makes sense. And it works for everyone, regardless of religious beliefs (or lack thereof).
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
But what are the practical applications of such a view?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Well, in my view, it means if you are (for example) sitting around at home watching a TV show that you don't really care much about, you should get up and do something that really matters to you - or if nothing matters to you, do something that matters to someone else.
And I think it suggests it is a good idea to care about something, or someone. I actually know people who I suspect violate that advice to some degree, and I do think they are not getting as much out of their lives as they could because of it.
Posted by Reshpeckobiggle (Member # 8947) on :
Sounds like Socrates, Tres.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: MightyCow, I just wanted to say I think you're handling yourself very well here, and I'm glad to know you.
Thanks. I have a small confession: I cribbed that from Christianity. Back when I was a Christian, it really bugged me when people tried to convince others how awesome God was, but acted like idiots or jerks. I felt that if you wanted to convince someone about the awesomeness of Jesus' love, you should behave in a way that Jesus would have approved of.
Now that I'm no longer Christian, I try (and let me tell you, sometimes it's tough) to act in a way that demonstrates the charity and love that I felt were valuable lessons I learned from Christian teachings, and show by example, that a non-Christian can be a perfectly good person.
Every so often, someone tells me what a good, Christian example I'm setting, and it really makes my day.
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