Mooselet and Superstation (my 5- and 3-year-olds, for those who didn't already know) have this habit of fighting, what with their being brothers and all. And I've recently been aware of the tough position I put them in when I get frustrated with them. I expect them to work things out on their own, and yet occasionally get upset with them for the manner in which they "work out" those things (as sometimes one of them ends up in tears).
Hatrack feels the same way sometimes. I'm not equating everyone with infants, so please don't get upset about that. But I get frustrated sometimes in my role as moderator that people can't seem to work things out without whistling a post (and I'm not complaining about whistles here -- I have no problem receiving them all the time, whether I agree with what the whistler finds problematic or not), and neither do they stay within the bounds of the TOS when they don't bring it to my attention. And again, please realize that this doesn't apply to everyone, or to anyone in particular, or to anyone in every case, as far as I'm concerned.
If my boys continue to fight over a toy, I'll often end up taking the toy away from both of them. That's often what locking a thread feels like.
Today there have been some things said that just seem mean to me. Meanness may not be the sole purpose for a given post, but seem to be part of the intent. Now I'm extremely wary of gauging intent. Too easy to be wrong.
Hatrack has been around long enough that people have a long posting history, and those who have been around long enough to read many of the posts (and who have good enough memories to put names to them accurately) see patterns, and so have likely formed an idea of who a person is and what he/she usually means when using a particular word or phrase or rhetorical style. Good or bad? Could be either. But it's real.
Thing is, people sometimes change. And sometimes people try to change and others don't let them. I don't know whether that's happening here, but I've seen what appears to be people trying to change and effectively being prevented from it, whether intentionally or not. I've seen repeatedly times when people known to be "nice" are given the benefit of the doubt when they say something "mean," because that's not like them, so maybe they didn't intend what the words actually said -- perhaps they're questioned rather than attacked. And I've seen times when people known to be "confrontive" (trying to find accurate descriptors and not be mean myself here) might say something fairly innocuous, and get bludgeoned in response because there's a way to read it in an insulting manner (for Xenocide readers, think Miro's reaction when Valentine talks about him and Ouanda "interfering" with the Piggies).
I'm not saying forget history or people, but I'd ask for a little bit more benefit of the doubt. Especially when someone says "that's not what I meant." Maybe, just maybe, it isn't what they meant. And when guessing at what someone who isn't even here meant, remember that as educated a guess as it may be, it's still a guess.
Oh, and [general] you can disagree with someone without being upset, and a discussion can end without a "winner," and you can step out of a discussion without conceding, and a smilie on the end of an insult doesn't make it not an insult, and two people can look at the same exact set of facts and come to different conclusions, without anyone being disingenuous or delusional or stupid.
I'll add in later if I think of something I forgot.
--PJ
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I know I'm one of the people who let himself get out of hand in a recent thread, and I'm sorry. It's important not to let the sense of justification that you can develop in the middle of an argument bend you into saying things that you wouldn't normally justify saying. So ... yeah, sorry about that. I don't like it when Hatrack gets all vitriolic, and I'm sorry that my mockery in the "honor" thread contributed to that.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
And I'm sorry that when a thread is locked, even if the topic hasn't interested me at all up until that point... I have to go read it.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I just know I', burned out on arguing about certain issues. So I will not, even though I am tired of the way the world is... World weary.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
vaht ees thess. I troied to post on my, how you say, 'zhread,' but eet vas claerly not oparatsonal.
I am dee-mandink a refund if pleass.
quote:I'll add in later if I think of something I forgot.
No sex in the champagne room?
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
For what it's worth, and at the risk of sounding like a terrible suck-up, I think you do a very good job at a difficult and demanding task, Papa Janitor.
Thank you. And don't give up on us.
(And don't take away the toy! Pleeeeze!... )
Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
Suck-up...
Posted by Feer (Member # 9846) on :
What Streling just said got me thinking. Is that why you are called Papa Janitor? To clean our messes?
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
He has to pour the metaphorical kitty litter on the metaphorical upchuck in the hall.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:What Streling just said got me thinking. Is that why you are called Papa Janitor? To clean our messes?
For as long as I've been around, the moderator of Hatrack has always gone by the name of xxxxxx Janitor while performing moderation duties.
You can still occasionally see Papa post as his old screenname, Papa Moose. In fact, he posted as Papa Moose just today.
Posted by scottneb (Member # 676) on :
I think we are all world-weary to a certain extent.I believe that is why we all decide to take time from our lives to sit on a computer and discuss things that might hurt others. I think that helps us all to further cement our beliefs and understandings of the world we are all so weary of.
I think we all need this place to be a place of debate. I've seen it so many times trough the years. People will inevitably say things that will spark a mentality throughout Hatrack. We've commented numerous times on the spin-off forums about how Hatrack is going through one of those phases at one point or another. It hurts people. It makes everyone upset. But, I think it's important to note that in the long run, Hatrack is a better place because we have these ebb and flows.
Hatrack will get better. It always does. But, like Pops pointed out, we need to be civil about what we say.
I will also add that Pops is doing an amazing job with this place. He has a relentless task of monitoring a huge online community; by himself.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Especially when someone says "that's not what I meant." Maybe, just maybe, it isn't what they meant.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: without anyone being disingenuous or delusional or stupid.
I like that last little bit. Than you for putting it in. I have never heard the word "disingeneuous" so many times as I have here at Hatrack. I have never used it outside of Hatrack.
What is it about that word that is so fun to use and so easy to abuse?
Posted by Zevlag (Member # 1405) on :
quote:Originally posted by scottneb: He has a relentless task of monitoring a huge online community; by himself.
That is one thing that I have always loved about Hatrack; that he doesn't do it alone. And for the most part, he doesn't have to do it all. Usually we are a self moderated, understanding, well discuses community. We choose to follow the rules, to get along, and to agree to disagree.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"What is it about that word that is so fun to use and so easy to abuse?"
I admit to having been a little disingenuous at times here. Not the majority of the time, but sometimes. It's not a big leap to assume, from that, that others are doing the same. Maybe they aren't.
I'm starting to realize that creating change in the world doesn't go "self, Hatrack, Universe." It's more like "self, 1 or 2 friends, 3 or 4 friends, re-think, reconsider, 5 or 6 friends, re-think, take a break, 10 or 12 friends, re-think, take a break," and so forth. I mean, maybe. Dunno.
Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
PapaJ/Moose:
quote:I expect them to work things out on their own, and yet occasionally get upset with them for the manner in which they "work out" those things (as sometimes one of them ends up in tears).
... the joys of parenting...
quote:But I get frustrated sometimes in my role as moderator that people [or kiddos] can't seem to work things out without whistling
...the joys of moderating and parenthood...
quote:If my boys continue to fight over a toy, I'll often end up taking the toy away from both of them. That's often what locking a thread feels like.
I've recently started moderating my forum of--get this--six people.
And already I've stayed up nights worrying about how to foster civility, how to moderate fairly, etc.
I want to take this opportunity to thank Papa Moose for his tireless efforts at keeping this place nice and wonderful. I never knew how darn hard that job is until now.
Posted by Jay (Member # 5786) on :
In the words of the great philosopher Rodney King: "Can’t we all just get along"
Posted by Flaming Toad on a Stick (Member # 9302) on :
*Begins angry argument with Jay about the merits of Rodney King's philosophies*
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*calls in overzealous cops to beat FToaS*
Oh, wait... This is the NO fighting thread...
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
*makes popcorn*
Posted by baduffer (Member # 10469) on :
I decided to take the plunge today and register on the site. I discovered Hatrack by being referenced to an article by OSC on the Ornery American site and eventually made my way here. I must admit that I have been lurking for a while and though the threads are quite “interesting” the interactions have been a bit off-putting. It has been surprising that even threads about the most innocuous subjects turn into vitriolic excess. I suspect there are a number of lurkers out there like me that hesitate to participate. Papa Janitor’s comments were quite helpful in getting me to risk the dangers of commenting. I hope that I can express myself without too many nits to pick and I will endeavor to say what I mean and mean what I say. I must say thanks to all of you for being entertaining and thought provoking. This is a great community of intelligent, thoughtful, and witty people for the most part, with a much wider range of views than I first suspected. I hope that I can make a contribution.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Welcome, baduffer. I'm glad you're giving Hatrack a try. Is your handle a golf reference?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Well said.
I try to be witty, thoughtful, and nice here, in that order. Maybe I should rearrange that.
Posted by baduffer (Member # 10469) on :
Thanks. Yes, I am obsessed with golf but very “bad” at it. It is so frustrating; I am normally good at what I try fairly quickly. Golf is my whale.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I've never played, but we're having a work "outing" this year where I'll have to try my hand at it. I can't say I'm terribly looking forward to it, but on the other hand it's got to be better than sitting in the office all day. So we'll see.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I feel the same way about golf at times.
As in all the time.
Welcome to Hatrack!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
For me, golf is like dancing -- I'm no good at it and I look like a dork, but as long as I can ignore that, it's a lot of fun.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
)