quote: One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it. [emphasis added]"
Edited to remove link. (The damage is already done but just in case some Hatrackers have had personal experiances with the discussed matter)
[ May 30, 2007, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Damien.m ]
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Fantastic! That has made my day, thanks.
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
*snerk* Oh, lordy...
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
<yawn>
Would you care to hear what some intelligent and well-informed Evangelicals are doing in the world, or is this just something that feeds your sense of superiority to other humans?
(Note: I do not consider myself an Evangelical Christian, much less a fundamentalist, but mocking people's ignorance and, I guess, trying to imply that anyone who shares their beliefs about Christianity must be just as ignorant, is really not putting your best foot forward either...)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Isn't there a distinction between "evangelical" and "fundamentalist?"
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
It's somewhat amusing I suppose.
But mostly it just makes me sad. I guess I could be considered an Evangelical Christian (IE- a Christian that has a strong belief in evangelism) That doesn't make me pro-stupid.
I don't believe in the theory of evolution- don't really have a reason- but I don't. Do I think that people that believe in evolution are evil and sinful and whatnot- not at all- I don't mind if other Christians are- I have more important things to worry about.
Do I want to see atheists burned or drowned or any other such thing as some on that list were saying. Not at all- God didn't say- "go and make disciples of all nations by killing anyone who you disagree with."
Essentially- I'm just anti-stupid. And yes, I'm fully aware that some here and elsewhere that will say that my own motley collection of religious and policitical ideologies are stupid. The bible can and should be used in context with everything else in all of human history. Faith is the starting point of a relationship with God- not the end point- the foundation is faith- and from the assumption of belief and trust in God then one can begin to use logical analysis of scripture to figure out how to live.
It's funny- but it just makes me pissed off. And this ended up being a lot longer than I thought it would be. Sorry.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
There are Fundamentalist idiots in the world. Pointing out their idiocy and laughing at them reflects on Fundamentalist idiocy - not on Evangelical Christianity (or other types of Christianity).
For instance, just because the Phelps family is full of crackpots, that doesn't automatically mean that all Christians are crackpots.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
quote:Originally posted by the doctor: <yawn>
Would you care to hear what some intelligent and well-informed Evangelicals are doing in the world, or is this just something that feeds your sense of superiority to other humans?
(Note: I do not consider myself an Evangelical Christian, much less a fundamentalist, but mocking people's ignorance and, I guess, trying to imply that anyone who shares their beliefs about Christianity must be just as ignorant, is really not putting your best foot forward either...)
Em, Im sorry but where did I say that anyone who shares their beliefs in Christianity is ignorant? I have great respect for Christians and wish I could have that much faith in something. I just thought it was funny how some people are so devout in their beliefs that they actually think that the laws of physics dont apply.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
Believe me when I say that I don't believe Damien.m possted that out of disrespect.
However, if you go back to the main page of that site, you can see that they do have an anti-Christian bias. They link to athiest newsletters and have sister sites about conspiracy theoriests and racists, who they obviously lump together with fundamentalist Christians.
While I aknowledge that it's possible to do lists like this that don't serve to make an entire group look bad (I don't think that lists of funny things kids wrote on school essays expose the seedy underbelly of anti-child bigotry), I do think that it's clear that this list was created out of such a sentiment.
I mean, I hate to go for the obvious example, but if somebody had done this using a derogatory term for a race in the title, and then spent their internet time trolling websites that people of that race frequented, looking for posts that showed how "foolish" they could make people of that race look, everyone would cry "bigot" in a heartbeat.
But I'm sure that, when linking to the list, the poster would say, "Some of my best friends are (of that race)," and they'd get to feel a sort of patronizing affection towards that race, even as they laughed at how foolish some of "them" can be.
Again I am not in any way suggesting that Damien.m posted this list with even the tinyiest bit of malice.
But I am suggesting that the list itself may be showing the same contempt for a group of people that some people on that list are showing towards atheists.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Well put, doc. Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
Oh, Getcha now!
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Pointing out their idiocy and laughing at them reflects on Fundamentalist idiocy - not on Evangelical Christianity (or other types of Christianity).
I disagree. Pointing out idiocy and laughing at people mainly just reflects on the character of the person doing the pointing.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Wow... I hope the rest of my day isn't as depressing as that site.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Doc pretty much said what I wanted to, but more succinctly.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
Is there any evidence that a young-earth creationist actually said that? Or that it was anyone that other yec's listen to?
Sounds like a made-up quote for the purpose of ridicule. Which, if one's position is so secure, one shouldn't need to do.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: Sounds like a made-up quote for the purpose of ridicule. Which, if one's position is so secure, one shouldn't need to do.
Perhaps one shouldn't need to ridicule someone else's position. But if the position seems silly to you, why not ridicule it?
If someone finds one of my positions on anything to be silly, or stupid, or ignorant, by all means ridicule it! Make fun of me for holding that position.
If my position can't hold up in the face of ridicule, perhaps I should give it a second examination.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
On Hatrack, we usually try to avoid out and out ridicule. It's in the TOS, or something...
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: Is there any evidence that a young-earth creationist actually said that? Or that it was anyone that other yec's listen to?
Sounds like a made-up quote for the purpose of ridicule. Which, if one's position is so secure, one shouldn't need to do.
I wonder about this as well.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I understand, which is why I refrained from any ridicule myself. We are, essentially, guests in someone else's home when we post on this forum. But I stand by my point as it relates to conversation/discussion in the general society.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:But if the position seems silly to you, why not ridicule it?
What is the benefit of ridiculing it?
I can tell you the costs: Sometimes things that seem silly to you end up being true. Ridiculing things prevents you and others from seeing clearly whether they are true or not, because it encourage people to not take those things seriously.
On top of that, ridiculing hurts the feelings of those who believe in the thing you are ridiculing - and encourages them to ridicule things you believe in. People tend to enjoy ridicule when it is against something they don't like. But ridicule often goes the opposite direction. Some fundamentalists often ridicule science, for instance. Even more so, some ridicule atheists. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: But ridicule often goes the opposite direction. Some fundamentalists often ridicule science, for instance. Even more so, some ridicule atheists. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
If they find things to ridicule, then yes. That's what I said.
Now, I'm not talking about ridiculing from ignorance. Sit down. Look at what they are saying, and then look at their reasons for saying it.
Then, if you find their point or reasoning to be silly, I would say feel free to ridicule it.
Maybe I'm taking the "South Park" stance here, and a lot of people disagree with that. But I think ridiculing an argument will bring attention to it.
For example, some people ridicule atheists. Fine. That just makes me interested in finding out what they think is silly, and decide for myself whether or not I agree with them.
If you ridicule my beliefs or positions or ideas, it makes me not take them for granted, which I think is always a good thing.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I think ridicule can be a useful weapon against injustices of power when used in a very directed, controlled, and relatively uncommon way (think the satire of Jonathan Swift or Mark Twain). But in regular day-to-day use, it seems to polarize and exacerbate the problem, and it often comes off as small-minded, egotistic, and petty, rather than as a stinging and effective rebuke.
I struggle with this more and more as I get older, though. I am becoming more small-minded, egotistic, and petty all the time, and an exasperated, hands-thrown-in-the-air approach of sniggering ridicule seems more and more appealing to me. This seems to be a fault with me, though, not the world. *rueful
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
On the topic of ridicule, I disagree that it is universally inappropriate.
Anytime you say, "I think its ridiculous that you....etc" you are ridiculing something. Sometimes people do need to be stopped in their tracks and be told that what they are doing is ridiculous.
If I am having a bad day, and have a chip on my shoulders and for some reason we enter a restaurant or somebody else's home and I am still carrying on, I would need somebody to say, "Hey, BB we are in a restaurant, the way you are acting is pretty ridiculous and immature, try to show some class please."
What if a person's position is, everyone else is a clod, and far beneath me, everything I do is the definition of correct, why even my farts smell divine whilst other's smell putrid. It does not always work this way, but those people benefit most from a person whose opinions they repspect ridiculing them.
There must be a billion chic flicks where the pompous guy is brought down by a simple girl who has little to no regard for how they do things and openly mock how their world is.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I realize the guy who made that page is doing it for ridicule but I don't see how anyone can laugh at that. It's horrible. Especially the one at the top of the page where the woman didn't understand her gay son and told him exactly what other people had told her to say and he killed himself.
That's not funny. That's terrible. It's terrible for the boy most of all, but it's also terrible for the poor mother who thought she knew exactly what to say only to have it be completely wrong and end up costing her her little boy!
The ones about people wanting to kill atheists... or kill gay people... Those aren't funny, they're SCAREY!
How is any of that funny?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
There must be a billion chic flicks where the pompous guy is brought down by a simple girl who has little to no regard for how they do things and openly mock how their world is.
I can't think of any. Unless you and I have very different definitions of open mockery. I would say that ridicule and openly mocking things tend to be the actions of the pompous character in such films, not the "simple" one.
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
quote:There must be a billion chic flicks where the pompous guy is brought down by a simple girl who has little to no regard for how they do things and openly mock how their world is.
Not sure what you're trying to get at here. Obviously "a billion" is an exaggeration, but other than that, what exactly are you trying to say? I was thinking maybe you are making reference to a broader meme that gives rise to stories like The Emperor's New Clothes, but then you bring the whole male/female thing into it and I kind of lost your point.
Back to the ridicule thing, I think there might be a bit of a problem with open mockery. Telling someone they are being "ridiculous" is not the same as actively mocking them -- i.e., actual ridicule. At least not in my experience.
A private word to a person to help them avoid embarrasment in a social situation is not the same as ridicule -- which to me implies something like openly (publicly) calling attention to their behavior or statement and making fun of it.
I believe some things are actually worthy of ridicule, and -- just my personal bent here -- people who put themselves up above others and then display their ignorance or lack of morals/ethics/knowledge, etc., are often worthy of open ridicule. Especially (actually almost exclusively) if they are in some position of authority such as an elected official, a high-level government or corporate person, or perhaps high up in a church hierarchy.
But basic "folks" who aren't necessarily doing anything like trying to run other peoples' lives or affect public policy, or get us into some mess or another...well...it just seems mean-spirited to me.
I wonder why I have no trouble ridiculing politicians for things that I wouldn't ridicule your aunt Sally for, though. I suppose I'll have to join CT and call that a personal failing. I should refrain from ridicule or dish it out without regard to a person's station in life, I suppose.
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: I realize the guy who made that page is doing it for ridicule but I don't see how anyone can laugh at that. It's horrible. Especially the one at the top of the page where the woman didn't understand her gay son and told him exactly what other people had told her to say and he killed himself.
That's not funny. That's terrible. It's terrible for the boy most of all, but it's also terrible for the poor mother who thought she knew exactly what to say only to have it be completely wrong and end up costing her her little boy!
The ones about people wanting to kill atheists... or kill gay people... Those aren't funny, they're SCAREY!
How is any of that funny?
I agree with this. The first post (and the thread linked underneath it where the religious people comfort the mother of the boy) have now succeeded in making me utterly depressed. I do have to wonder whether the mother's a real person though and whether her story is made up or not... I noticed she doesn't have that many posts on that board. I hope it's just somebody's dumb idea of a joke.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by the doctor: I suppose I'll have to join CT ...
You poor thing! *wry grin
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
Snail -- I think the invective heaped toward this woman (although she'll probably never read it) on the mocking site is pretty nasty too.
The original thread on the Christian site appears to be gone. The one where people are trying to comfort her after her son's suicide appears to still be up, and, well...naturally, people are saying things to try to "help" her, without really thinking about the feelings of her dead son.
It's all extremely sad.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
I hadnt noticed that he had killed himself. Im sorry now for posting this.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
DKW: I could probably come up with movie scenes that demonstrate this but I am not sure we have seen the same movies.
But I should mention that I see ridicule and mocking to be in the same vein, not identical mind you but I would feel comfortable with saying that, "to ridicule" indicates mild to moderate mocking.
We will conjure up a generic movie scene.
Nice down to earth girl and pompous man who is with her come to a pond. Girl says, "hey lets be spontaneous and go for a wade in the knee deep water!" Pompous man of course rebuffs her and she leaps into the water, the man recoils as the splash nearly gets a few dropletts on his expensive clothes." Girl laughs at the man's behavior (which in of itself is a mild form of ridiculing it) and what do you assume the girl is going to do next?
If you thought she splashes him playfully, then your mind works like mine To me though she is ridiculing his overly serious manner.
Benjamin Franklin once published a piece where he took the vast numbers of titles that existed for members of royalty and the clergy and applied them to folks found in the Old and New Testament. The contrast was that people in the bible as important as say the virgin mary were (in the bible) merely referred to by their names, whereas a preacher from Boston might be called, "The right good reverend Cotton-Mather," and to not use that title was considered rude. The purpose of the piece was obviously to ridicule the pompouse and prideful clergy/royalty of both Europe and America.
Perhaps my way of seeing things is not your way, but I think ridicule certainly has a place, and not an always unfavorable one.
----
On a seperate ridicule related subject,
I would be very interested in folks take on one occurance in the Bible. Elijah has setup that contest with the priests of Baal and whoever conjures up fire from heaven wins, and the true God of heaven is revealed. Elijah mocks and ridicules the priests the entire time they are making their attempt.
Is this an instance of justified ridicule? Prophets are certainly not perfect, but it seems strange that God would honor Elijah's request for fire if he disagreed with Elijah's mocking. The fact he mocked them is simply stated without any moral judgements made on the action. I myself have thought often about whether Elijah was right or wrong to mock the priests. I've yet to come to a conclusion. I'd love to see how others see that scenario.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
It's okay, Damien.m. This is probably a live-and-learn sort of thing, and she (if she is real) probably won't see this thread. It is a useful reminder that many times we don't have the full picture, though.
That's something that keeps me up at nights. I still grit my teeth over silly and thoughtless things I did years ago that harmed somebody.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote: That's something that keeps me up at nights. I still grit my teeth over silly and thoughtless things I did years ago that harmed somebody.
I too grit my teeth occasionally when I think about things you have done that harmed people Claudia *shakes head* Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
It is depressing, isn't it? I am most upset about one that was completely unintentional, but I fear was insulting beyond belief. It wasn't the worst, but I can't believe I did it.
I've mentioned it here before -- the time I insisted a young middle-schooler I was meeting to tutor was, instead, his mother. (He looked like a short, middle-aged woman to me, and I kept addressing him as Mrs. So-and-so and asking where his son was. It took me a couple of -- very public -- minutes to process that he was, in fact, the son. Oh, good grief.)
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: Is there any evidence that a young-earth creationist actually said that? Or that it was anyone that other yec's listen to?
I was there a few months ago when this popped up on IIDB. The person who posted it there claimed to have been discussing evolution on ChristianForums and that the posted quote was in response to something he said. So there are not many people who could be lying about it. You could probably still trace it to the source.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
BB, you claimed that there are "a billion" examples of something, but you are unable to come up with one?
I'm afraid I don't accept a "generic" example that you made up as evidence of anything.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: BB, you claimed that there are "a billion" examples of something, but you are unable to come up with one?
I'm afraid I don't accept a "generic" example that you made up as evidence of anything.
*sigh* ok how many do I have to list before I am justified in using "a billion" as hyperbole?
edit: The Sound of Music Mary Poppins My Fair Lady Step Up Save The Last Dance
Or did you want me to pick one movie and cite one example? Because I'd rather not outline one only to have you respond with, "Well that's just one movie."
double edit: and I did not say I could not come up with one, I didn't want to take shots in the dark hoping you had I both happened to have seen the same movie.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
You could start with one.
Posted by Snail (Member # 9958) on :
quote:Originally posted by the doctor: Snail -- I think the invective heaped toward this woman (although she'll probably never read it) on the mocking site is pretty nasty too.
Probably. I didn't read those. To be honest I can't make myself to feel much sympathy towards her, but I still don't think she ought to be mocked, especially in a situation such as her sons death.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
It does seem like the quote is a bit over-the-top. Most of the time, when I see the second law of thermodynamics argument, people using it don't realize that an outside source of energy allows for the local decrease of entropy of a system. I'd be surprised if someone was aware of this aspect of the second law but didn't realize the sun is the source of that energy.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
If those are your examples I stand by my assertion that you and I have very different definitions of open mockery. Also, aparently, "simple girl" and "chic flick."
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Ah. The discussion - again, this is according to my memory of a conversation a couple of months old, and second-hand - went on with the atheists pointing out the Sun, and the creationist giving reasons why the Sun didn't count.
Posted by Damien.m (Member # 8462) on :
^Thats what I found funny:)
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: If those are your examples I stand by my assertion that you and I have very different definitions of open mockery. Also, aparently, "simple girl" and "chic flick."
Well it is hardly helpful when I am the only trying to layout what the words mean to me and merely having you take pot shots at it.
I could lay out a perfectly crafted essay on this topic and then have you respond simply,
"If that's what you think, then we disagree."
I suppose that's fine, but was there really a point to challenging what I said, if you were looking to simply disagree with my perspective in the end?
Perhaps you could state why you think my description of "ridicule" is not the best description?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Ah. It seems I had misremembered the original source. Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
quote:and the creationist giving reasons why the Sun didn't count.
Oh, dear.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
"Ridicule" means to intentionally make someone the butt of humor. It is, by definition, contemptuous and derisive. The same holds for "open mockery," although to a lesser extent.
What you seem to be describing seems more like teasing, which can be either vicious or good-natured depending on various factors. (Although I can't remember any character doing even that in Mary Poppins.)
Regardless, "If that's what you think, then we disagree" is what this is going to come down to, whether you write a well-crafted essay on it or not. And that was all I wanted clarified -- whether you are using the words in a different way than I would or whether you have seen a bunch of movies that I haven't that would indicate a meme of (what I would also call) open mockery. The first appears to be the case.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
dkw: Ok, thank you for clarifying. I think we indeed use ridicule in a seperate manner.
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
quote:It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
Actually, what I said was that telling someone they are being ridiculous and ridiculing someone are different.
Here's the difference:
Option one: You are being ridiculous, you should stop.
Option two: Ha! Look at <person> everyone -- what an idiot! He doesn't even know how to use a knife and fork! I bet he drinks by lowering his head to a water dish and lapping stuff up! HA HA
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
I'm not sure why it would be strange. It's similar to saying something is stinky as opposed to stinking something up yourself.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I think ridicule can be a useful weapon against injustices of power when used in a very directed, controlled, and relatively uncommon way (think the satire of Jonathan Swift or Mark Twain). But in regular day-to-day use, it seems to polarize and exacerbate the problem, and it often comes off as small-minded, egotistic, and petty, rather than as a stinging and effective rebuke.
I struggle with this more and more as I get older, though. I am becoming more small-minded, egotistic, and petty all the time, and an exasperated, hands-thrown-in-the-air approach of sniggering ridicule seems more and more appealing to me. This seems to be a fault with me, though, not the world. *rueful
Agreed.
On all points. *equally rueful*
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Sorry, my mistake guys, I didn't explain why the Sun doesn't count. Here is the info on that from ChristianAnswers.net: (...)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
The thing is, I'm still not sure what reason we have to believe that whoever posted that analysis of the Sun wasn't posing as a misguided Christian. Not that you friend was lying, but that someone may have been lying to him.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I linked directly to the post in question, you can read it for yourself. It's certainly possible that awesomestnerd is an atheist out for a laugh, but the dialogue looks pretty authentic to me; and what he posts, except for the part I quoted about the Sun not counting, is a pretty direct quote from ChristianAnswers.net. Are you going to argue that that site is likewise an atheist hoax?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Wellll, let's just say I'd prefer to think so. Seriously.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
No kidding.
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
Is that a gaming forum?
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:You were born perfect, now I don't mean perfect like muscly body and everything is the "normal" conditions. I mean perfect as in you haven't sinned. I doubt that anybody has come out of their mother and shouted the f word.
Poor unimaginative fool.
For the curious, "my" was the 2nd word out of my mouth, closely followed by "head" as my third.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Fundamentalist Christians are probably the single most rightly ridiculed batch of people on the internet.
There are many among their number who argue tirelessly and zealotically about things that just make them look stupid. And many refuse to concede holes in their faith-based positions. There are few forums in the history of forumdom that don't have at least one story of 'that guy' who would do stuff like quote straight from scripture to prove that evolution is scientifically impossible.
These quotes are par for the course. A kind of indulgent laff-a-minute collection that resonates with the many people who remember these discussions. Truth be told, I often feel sorry for the christians who end up being represented by this sort of crap :/
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I guess the sun IS God after all...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:There are many among their number who argue tirelessly and zealotically about things that just make them look stupid.
"Zealotically?"
quote:I guess the sun IS God after all...
:clears throat:
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas, A gigantic nuclear furnace Where hydrogen is built into helium At temperatures of millions of degrees.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Zealotically
One of my favorite made up words!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Having read over quite a few posts on the forum in question, and having known a few (luckily a small few) of people with similar beliefs, the likelihood seems low that it is is a hoax. And even if that particular instance is a hoax, there are a lot of similar hoaxers out there who manage to put up startlingly complete facades.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Couple things before I get back to work:
- Where is ridicule specifically mentioned in the User Agreement? I don't seem to see it.
- How is ridicule different than satire or farce?
- Was it okay to laugh at the Universe People who spammed hatrack a few years back saying that the lizard people were in control of earth?
And Tres - Yes, pointing and laughing at idiocy does reflect on the character of the person doing the pointing. Specifically, it shows that they find idiocy funny.
But, to redirect you to what my statement actually meant instead of what you wanted it to mean, if one speaks about rocks, their statements reflect on rocks - they don't have any reflection on, say, elephants.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by the doctor:
quote:It seems strange to me that we would say that ridiculing something is not the same thing as saying it is ridiculous.
Actually, what I said was that telling someone they are being ridiculous and ridiculing someone are different.
Here's the difference:
Option one: You are being ridiculous, you should stop.
Option two: Ha! Look at <person> everyone -- what an idiot! He doesn't even know how to use a knife and fork! I bet he drinks by lowering his head to a water dish and lapping stuff up! HA HA
And in option two could easily interject, "He looks so ridiculous" anywhere in that sentence.
Posted by the doctor (Member # 6789) on :
yes, that's true. But the point is that option one is a person speaking directly to another person, whereas option two is a person speaking to a crowd at large and encouraging them to mock the other person.
Think of it this way, if I pull you aside privately to point out to you that you are being ridiculous, I have not ridiculed you, but potentially spared you from ridicule. Whereas, if I just start mocking you publicly, I have not only ridiculed you, but encouraged others to do it as well.
Those are not the same, and, really, only one of those situations amounts to "ridicule."
Unless what you want to say is that ANY pointing out of a behavioral problem in another human being, no matter how that is accomplished, amounts to ridicule.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
MightyCow:
Ridicule, for me, is a part of being both defamatory and abusive, both of which are prohibited in the TOS.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I think my qualm was that people seemed to be saying that the meanings behind ridicule and ridiculous were more distant then I felt was right.
In retrospect if I had thought it over longer I don't think I would have argued this at all.
I suppose it just trips me up, as were I to say to a person in the presence of others, "You are being ridiculous and I'm not putting up with it." That that would then amount to ridicule.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... Elijah mocks and ridicules the priests the entire time they are making their attempt.
Is this an instance of justified ridicule?
Well, is there any reason that you feel it would justified if you took whether he was right or wrong out of the equation?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: ... Elijah mocks and ridicules the priests the entire time they are making their attempt.
Is this an instance of justified ridicule?
Well, is there any reason that you feel it would justified if you took whether he was right or wrong out of the equation?
I do not quite understand what you mean.
BTW thanks for picking up on that statement, I had dispaired that anybody would find the topic interesting.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I have to say that sometimes, when faced with an unbelievably ignorant and damaging opinion you can either laugh or you can fall into anger and depression. I think we laugh because it's a personally better option than constantly becoming angry and fighting.
This does not solely apply to fundamentalist religion but to any unbelievably ignorant stance.
Watching The Daily Show, for example, could be be a horribly depressing experience, but it's supposed to be funny. Instead of being angry at the stupidities of the world, we laugh.
CT said (and rivka agreed):
quote:I struggle with this more and more as I get older, though. I am becoming more small-minded, egotistic, and petty all the time, and an exasperated, hands-thrown-in-the-air approach of sniggering ridicule seems more and more appealing to me.
Is it possible that it's not only them becoming egotistical that causes a movement towards laughter instead of outrage is a side effect of getting tired of sustaining outrage?
I think it's part of the "If I don't laugh, I might cry" idea.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Scott,
First, I'm not MightyCow.
Second, I'm not sure that pointing out something that is ridiculous falls into the same umbrella as ridicule.
By your definition, ridicule is abusive and defamatory. Do you believe that one can point out and find humor in ridicluous statements made by another in a way that is not abusive or defamatory?
I feel that is possible, but I understand if you feel it is not.
To go back to an earlier example, I feel that I can call Ken Phelps a crackpot and laugh at his misguided attempts at swaying public opinion without feeling I've crossed the line into abuse or defamation.
I also find it interesting that no one mentioned the word "ridicule" until Seatarsprayan did some 15 posts into this thread, suggesting that the initial quote was "made up for purposes of ridicule".
I don't feel the initial post was ridicule at all, personally. Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
BB: Well, (not too familiar with that story, so going by your words) if I understand correctly, your dilemma was in determining whether Elijah was justified in his mocking. It seemed like the reason you thought he was justified was because (both) God existed and God did not disapprove of the act.
I'm just asking, if God was taken out of the scenario and Elijah was championing "generic god A" and his opponents were championing "generic god B", would either side be justified in mocking the other?
I guess as a follow-up question, would your answer change if neither existed, A existed, or B existed?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Ok I understand what you are saying now. I really suggest however you read the story as well as understand the background of what prompted the contest.
Ahab becomes king of Israel, marries a Cannanite by the name of Jezebel. Jezebel worships the God Baal and attempts to convert all of Israel over to Baal worship. She persuades her husband Ahab to worship Baal as well as systematically kill all the prophets and church officials who worship the traditional Israelite God.
Elijah, who has been a prophet for some time, under command from God visits Ahab, curses the land and says that no rain shall fall, leaves and goes into hiding to escape Jezebel's wrath. Three years pass and we come to chapter 18. Try to read the event in its entirety if you would.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Ok, I've read the passage. From what I can make out, there is only one line of mocking "27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is apursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." which I would roughly understand as Elijah saying something like "Call for your god, maybe he's just gone or sleeping."
Not exactly a cutting insult, but maybe it loses something in translation.
In any case, I reiterate my four questions and maybe add another. Unless I misunderstand, he orders the death of the 450 opposing priests of Baal right? Isn't it a bit odd to wonder whether they were ridiculed with justification rather than whether they were justifiably murdered?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Ahab becomes king of Israel, marries a Cannanite by the name of Jezebel.
Phoenician. Sidonian, to be precise. Not the folks we usually consider to be Canaanites. Hiram of Tyre, for example, was a Phoenician, and was on friendly terms with David and Solomon.
Also, he probably married her before he became king. It isn't certain, but it's likely.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:There are many among their number who argue tirelessly and zealotically about things that just make them look stupid.
"Zealotically?"
quote:I guess the sun IS God after all...
:clears throat:
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas, A gigantic nuclear furnace Where hydrogen is built into helium At temperatures of millions of degrees.
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Ok, I've read the passage. From what I can make out, there is only one line of mocking "27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is apursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked." which I would roughly understand as Elijah saying something like "Call for your god, maybe he's just gone or sleeping."
Not exactly a cutting insult, but maybe it loses something in translation.
In any case, I reiterate my four questions and maybe add another. Unless I misunderstand, he orders the death of the 450 opposing priests of Baal right? Isn't it a bit odd to wonder whether they were ridiculed with justification rather than whether they were justifiably murdered?
I read it as taunting, it does not make sense in any other vein. I doubt Elijah was attempting to offer friendly advice to the priests seeing as how he would likely be executed if they had succeeded.
If you wish to discuss the priests execution make another thread. Executing apostates is pretty well laid out in the law of Moses, there are not however many incidents of taunting in the scriptures.
There are quite a few Psalms that describe the Lord as laughing at the wicked,
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Fantastic! That has made my day, thanks.
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To me though she is ridiculing his overly serious manner.![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
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