My brother is mad at me because I don't unconditionally take his side in fights against my family. So he called CPS. And they showed up at my house. At 1:30 in the morning.
I almost didn't let them in. They wanted to see the girls and then they shone flashlights on them and Bridget woke up. I had to nurse her again to get her back to sleep (so this morning I'm really uncomfortable.) As you can imagine, I did not sleep well.
If they show up again and my husband is not home I think I am NOT letting them in. I just am not comfortable letting people in when I'm home alone with the kids-- not anyone, except my friends and family. If they can get a warrant based on an anonymous accusation and no evidence of abuse, neglect, or unsafe environment on the night-time look around, let them, but short of that I don't want them here.
Anyway, I am SOOOO. Mad.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Egad. Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Well, he showed you.
Yikes, that's really nuts.
Did he randomly call them for no reason as a means for revenge, or has he justified his actions in some way to himself? (i.e. "I've always been concerned, it's just now that I had the nerve to call somebody. I'm just worried for your children.)
I can't believe that CPS would show up at 1:30 am. He must of told them something that made them convinced that the children were in immediate danger or something.
Wow.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
And here I was really grumpy because my cat would not let me sleep and kept licking/nuzzling my face.
Egad is right.
I hope you have more patience then I would with a brother who pulled a stunt like that.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
That's horrible.
I think you should refuse entry no matter if your husband is home or not. ALWAYS refuse entry without a warrant. You're just giving up your rights when you don't have to, and a visit at 1:30 in the morning is CERTAINLY unreasonable. Besides, who knows if they'll zero in on something to make it seem like your home is unfit for the children, like if it's a little messy or something.
Maybe you could call CPS to file a complaint, too.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I think CPS does more harm than good.
I was talking to a social worker last weekend at a class I was taking and she said CPS takes away however many kids they have the money for. She swelled with pride when she said how much easier it was to lose your kids here in Santa Clara County than in Alameda County.
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
KQ, They should only do that once. When they realize he is wasting their time, they will not answer any more of his calls. After verifying who they really are, letting them in once is much less hassle than not letting them in, since you have nothing to hide.
I don't blame you for being angry. I'm sorry you had to go through it. I'm sorry that he will probably not suffer any repercussions from CPS for false reporting. I suspect there will be follow-up visits and demands that you attend parenting classes and meetings whether you need them or not. But it will eventually be over.
How did you know it was your brother who reported you? I am baffled also at why he would think this would make you any more likely to choose his side in an argument. Some people just aren't very wise.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:After verifying who they really are, letting them in once is much less hassle than not letting them in, since you have nothing to hide.
That's what I decided. But I'm not allowing a "follow up visit" without a warrant. Nope.
quote:How did you know it was your brother who reported you?
Well, my children are well-fed, and don't have any bruises. It had to be someone who had another reason for reporting us. And it had to be someone who would know all our names and my kids' ages, and put MY name first on the report. The only logical answer is my brother-- who might, in his delusional world, think that because I refuse to let my children see him when he is spouting his racist propoganda and swearing, I am a neglectful parent.
He's also manic-depressive and not on medication.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
kq, I'm pretty sure you should be able to demand a written copy of the report made on you. I know it's the law in my state.
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
Yes, that is the kind of person who would do this.
Once they realize that, there shouldn't be any more problem from him.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: kq, I'm pretty sure you should be able to demand a written copy of the report made on you. I know it's the law in my state.
They did show it to me, but since the caller didn't give a name, it doesn't do much good.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
kq--
At 1:30 in the morning? That seems really out of the ordinary. I'd follow up with the CPS office itself to make sure it was really them.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
KQ -
This completely blows. However...if you don't know for sure it is your brother, then I'd find out if you can before you decide that it is. Imagine the horrid repurcussions of you accusing him when he was innocent - I'm not sure I could get over a sibling doing that.
There has to be someone else in your life that knows your first name and the names and ages of your children.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It was CPS. And two cops. I checked the info on the cops that came with him.
They said because the kids are so young they can't wait until the next day, they have to send a night worker the same night. They got the call at 11:30, the report got to the worker at 12:30, so they showed up at 1:30. At least my husband was home-- although I had to wake him and get him dressed. Like I said, if he hadn't been home, if they had showed up during the day, they would not have come in.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Did they at least acknowledge that it was a false alarm?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:However...if you don't know for sure it is your brother, then I'd find out if you can before you decide that it is. Imagine the horrid repurcussions of you accusing him when he was innocent - I'm not sure I could get over a sibling doing that.
There has to be someone else in your life that knows your first name and the names and ages of your children.
Yes, but no one who would put my name first-- and no one who would have cause to believe they were not safe, or a vindictive score to settle.
And I think Jeff was supposed to call him this morning. I'll talk to him on his lunch but if he hasn't I'll call my brother myself. My brother will have no problem admitting it if it is him (or if he doesn't admit it, he will be unable to hide the fact he is lying and trip himself up in his statements.) There is no doubt in my mind that it is him; we had a fight at 9 last evening, over the phone, so after a few hours of stewing he would be in just the place to call.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Did they at least acknowledge that it was a false alarm?
He said several times that the children seemed well cared-for. He did say our kitchen could be cleaned up a little (I was in a car accident last week and haven't been able to do dishes or take out the trash, and Jeff is pulling a load and a half of schoolwork and working full-time AND doing most of the childcare when he is home, because of my injuries, so yeah, it could use a cleaning.) But he also said that that's not grounds to do anything about it, on their part.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That does sound more likely. I'd wait until I knew for sure before deciding, but I admit it sound likely, especially if he has emotional issues.
If it was done in order to hurt you, it sounds like they knew exactly how to hurt you: your kids are everything to you. I'm so sorry.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:She swelled with pride when she said how much easier it was to lose your kids here in Santa Clara County than in Alameda County.
Just spotted this one. Good think I live in L.A. County, where, sad as it is, the workers have undoubtedly seen REAL neglect, abuse, and unsafe conditions, to know the difference.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
This is awful, Anne Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
That is horrible. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: He did say our kitchen could be cleaned up a little
Note to self: do not invite friend who is an investigator for DHS over for dinner. Or hire a cleaning service first.
****
I'm sorry you had to deal with that, kq. The idea that a family member (or anyone, really) would make a false report to "get" the parents is pathetic.
But I most emphatically do NOT agree that CPS does more harm than good. They have a hideously hard job, but their priority is to save kids' lives. They never get publicity when things go well, because how do you identify incidents that were avoided? But if a kid dies of abuse or neglect and it comes out that there had been a complaint and CPS didn't act they get the blame. Not to mention how awful they personally feel about it.
And I can guarentee that those workers are just as annoyed to be jerked around as part of a vendetta when they have real incidents to deal with as you are to have had to deal with them.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:What the heck kind of person does this?
In answer to the original question, it sounds like either a very vindicative person or a very broken one, or both.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: But I most emphatically do NOT agree that CPS does more harm than good. They have a hideously hard job, but their priority is to save kids' lives. They never get publicity when things go well, because how do you identify incidents that were avoided? But if a kid dies of abuse or neglect and it comes out that there had been a complaint and CPS didn't act they get the blame. Not to mention how awful they personally feel about it.
And I can guarentee that those workers are just as annoyed to be jerked around as part of a vendetta when they have real incidents to deal with as you are to have had to deal with them.
I agree wholeheartedly. I know others who've had similar bogus complaints. My sister in law's sister called CPS (in Utah) because she found some bananas that had fallen behind the microwave and become overripe.
I even had someone call CPS on me once. Because I also work in state government (and this is a very small island, so most of us state employees know each other, at least to some extent), it didn't become a big issue, but the CPS employees were not amused and told the complainant in no uncertain terms that they would not tolerate false reporting. They seriously don't have time for that kind of cr*p and I'm sure they get more than their share of "vengence" calls.
People really do suck sometimes.
Sorry KQ.
Posted by BlueWizard (Member # 9389) on :
I'm going to mirror what Dead_Horse said, exactly how did your brother think this was going to win you over to his side?
I understand how people can be so irrational because I've seen it over and over again in my own life. So, I understand that people CAN do it, I just don't understand what logic they use to reach such an irrational conclusion. Of course, the answer is likely that the DO NOT us ANY logic to reach that conclusion. They are running on pure emotion and stupidity.
If you determine that your brother did this, you might, quite calmly and rationally ask him how this help his situation at all? Does he think you are now more likely to side with him? Does he think this has lead to you being his number one supporter?
On the subject of Child Protection Services, I've had some indirect experience with them. They seem so trapped in the rules and procedures that they are unable to see the reality around them. They will make decisions that are very detrimental to the child and justify it by saying they 'followed procedure'. Here's a news flash for them, your job is not to follow procedure but to achieve the best more positive outcome for the child. Something that only rarely happens.
Steve/BlueWizard
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:exactly how did your brother think this was going to win you over to his side?
Well, that's the point. He's not thinking straight. He's paranoid and manic. He denied calling when I spoke to him but promptly began screaming and cussing at me and, well, I know when my baby brother is lying, I've known him his whole life. He has a tone he gets, and it was in his voice. *sigh*
I guess if we wanted to confront him more, we could wait until the cell phone bill comes and find the number, if he used his cell (he's on our family plan.) But at this point I'm just not talking to him. At all. I'm not answering his calls, I'm not going to see him, I just can't deal with it. I'm praying for him, and that's all I can do.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I can not imagine trying to do the job CPS does. From what I understand, they are usually understaffed severely so they are overworked. Plus, they only get to really deal with the worst. And they have to make a decision on imperfect knowledge that will drastically effect so many people's lives. KQ- I cannot imagine having to deal with that. I hope it doesn't happen again.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
CPS is an underfunded program which has to do the best it can with the worst, most profoundly depressing situations that may or may not be time-critical.
If they act too slow or dismiss claims that turn out to be legitimate, they are criticized for letting a child they could have saved slip through the cracks, and there's newspaper columns about their fatal delays, often with headlines 'why didn't they act?'
And, of course, when they act too fast, or are forced to respond procedurally to calls from numbnuts like the brother in this story, then they get criticized as the overweening arm of statism or sommat. It's really a godawful job even when you don't already account for the understaffing and underfunding.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't blame CPS. Although the police were really, really rude, and I will be contacting the brass about them. I blame my idiot brother.
That doesn't stop me from being mad.
Posted by krynn (Member # 524) on :
KQ- avoiding your brother may seem like the best thing to do, but didnt u say u wanted to make sure it was him? have u found out yet?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I talked to him. He denied it but he's lying, he always stutters when he lies.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I think I would have strangled someone if they told me my kitchen needed to be cleaned up a bit. I admire your restraint in this awful situation. *sigh* I hope you don't have to deal with any more consequences of it. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, I won't. Or I'll fight like heck.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Seriously, I probably would've had some choice words for the investigator too for commenting on the kitchen. Apparently clutter constitutes child abuse now? What in insane invasion of privacy. Geez.
Sorry you had to go through that Anne. I hope your brother grows up sometime soon.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Seriously, I probably would've had some choice words for the investigator too for commenting on the kitchen. Apparently clutter constitutes child abuse now?
While I would hate it as well (especially right after Shabbos, when I have a sinkful of dishes that sometimes don't get done right away), you are wrong to think this is unreasonable behavior on the part of DCS. Their job is to evaluate the home, and that includes any potential health hazards. A kitchen can be one -- and in this case clearly was not.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah, I know our kitchen needs cleaning, I know it's his job to say it. I also know that our kitchen is not so dangerously dirty as to be a serious health hazard (and that when the dishes are dirty, we don't use them, we use paper, which he has no way of knowing.) Like I said, I harbor no ill will toward the investigator, who was polite, apologetic, reassuring, and courteous through the whole thing. LAPD's finest, OTOH... Ay.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I'm sorry, kq. That really sucks. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
God help anyone who has to "inspect" my kitchen!
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
on top of the staffing issues etc with this type of investigation I can only imagine how hard it is to make good judgements based on their limited interaction with you (in general).
i.e. if you've met someone for 15 minutes at 1:30 in the morning completely unexpected, your initial reaction is almost certainly going to be negative. However, this doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the person. Similarly, with the kitchen, there can easily be a very subtle difference between a few dishes sitting in the sink for a couple days after a party and dishes that are routinely left for weeks uncleaned. If there are continuing visits, then MAYBE an adequate judgement can be made, but even then the family's interactions are going to be heavily skewed by the interview/investigation format of everything. Even the worst parents can probably put on a good face for an hour a week, and even the best parents are going to have some quirk or something that looks bad.
I have no doubts that KQ and KPC are fine parents from my couple hours hanging out with them, but I'm sure I'd have very different impressions if I was a cop coming in on a call for 15 minutes in the middle of the night.
as for your particular situation KQ, all I can offer you is a ((KQ))
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
kq, I know you know. It was Lyrhawn who didn't seem to.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
A frivolous call to CPS could break up your family. If someone did this to mine he wouldn't be in my life for any longer than it would take to cuss him out. Maybe this is my sympathetic anger talking and maybe I'd be wrong to do that. Of course I would have to be absolutely sure it was him.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Does your family know about this? Perhaps they could offer some support? Possibly provide a report on your children that contradicts your brothers? That might ease the CPS off your back while still not being too confrontational with your brother, assuming that's what you want. I almost want to suggest seeking some mental help for him, that's scary what he did to you.
I'm really sorry, I don't have kids, and I can't really relate, but I'm sure it made you scared and angry. Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
That's [what your brother did] an awful thing to do. There's a manic-depressive in my wife's family, and I'm sorry to say that from the stories I've heard, it's not uncommon to see that kind of blind vindictive behavior.
What a rotten experience. I'm so sorry.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: kq, I know you know. It was Lyrhawn who didn't seem to.
I know you know I know. The "yeah" was agreement with you.
I'm still just mad.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nick: Does your family know about this? Perhaps they could offer some support? Possibly provide a report on your children that contradicts your brothers? That might ease the CPS off your back while still not being too confrontational with your brother, assuming that's what you want. I almost want to suggest seeking some mental help for him, that's scary what he did to you.
I'm really sorry, I don't have kids, and I can't really relate, but I'm sure it made you scared and angry.
They know now. And I'm actually pretty confident, after explaining the situation with my brother to CPS, that they're not going to bother me again.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Yeah, I have a manic depressive cousin, and she's excessively vindictive at times. Which would be why I no longer have anything to do with her. I can't be bothered to put up with the crap, especially since the last couple of years I was in contact with her, it was directed at me. Gee, my bad - I caught her lying. Yeah, I'm a terrible person.
I don't know how across-the-board this type of behavior is, though.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I know you know I know.
*giggle*
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I'm still just mad.
I don't blame you at all. Given the opportunity, I can get pretty fired up about the one run-in I had with DCS -- and mine involved no cops, no middle-of-night, and no malicious family members. And it was about 5 years ago.(It involved paranoid idiots who had prejudged me simply because I was in the process of going through a divorce, but that's another story.)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Actually, I think I'm getting past mad-- now I'm scared. I'm scared to be home, I'm scared to go to sleep, I don't know if I'm ever going to be totally comfortable in this apartment again. Oh, well, we were looking to move anyway...
I think I was so angry all last night and today that I didn't have a chance to feel all the scared that was hiding under the anger, and now it's hitting me all at once.
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
I'm sorry you had to go through this Kq. I hope everything works out all right. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
(((((kq)))))
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
People people people,
If I may interrupt;
It's times like these that getting even feels better than getting rational.
My Dear, over the years I have myself been the victim of these sort of 'practical jokes'.
Know this; the fight is on, you have to show your brother & other like him not to mess with you.
Step1: Withdraw 300 dollars from the bank in small quantities over 7days.
Step2: Find a cow farm & rental truck company.
Step3: Learn your brothers habits. Does he work? What times is he home? Do other people live with him? When are they in?
Step4: Find a daylight deadzone when no one is home.
Step5, Juicy one: Have 5 TONS of cow manure dumped on his front lawn. Be there to recieve delivery and falsy sign acceptance notice.
You have gotten even.
Yours,
MaSTERdb
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
That sounds like the absolute best way to not help the situation at all!
It is also a not very well thought out plan. Five tons of cow manure dumped on a lawn is not something that is easily missed by potential witnesses.
Posted by Mr. Stryker (Member # 10517) on :
Ignore him.
He's been on here for less than 8 hours, and he's already used some very inappropriate language. And by inappropriate i mean things that I wouldn't even say in certain company, let alone type it and leave a record of my immaturity.
He's either a bot or some pathetic teenager looking for attention.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
(((kq & family)))
Since the police were involved, it's entirely possible that your brother could find himself in a spot of trouble, should they identify him. Filing a false report is (typically) a misdemeanor and it can result in a whole bunch of negative official attention from police, judges, and so forth.
Sadly, your brother's mental state sounds like this would only serve to confirm his worst fears and perhaps bring out worse problems.
I don't mean to pry, but do you feel like his behavior has reached the point where the family needs to do something about it? Is he getting professional help? If he's on medication, has he been seen regularly to see that his meds are adjusted properly?
Someone earlier mentioned manic/depressive. If he truly suffers from bipolar disorder (I apologize if I've missed a discussion of this, or simply don't remember it), it can be extremely difficult to treat and keep it under control. Plus people suffering from that are notorious "self-medicators" meaning that they turn to drugs and alcohol and become even more seriously derailed.
Before he starts wracking up criminal offenses, it might be worthwhile for those who love him most to take some decisions out of his hands for a time in order to make sure he's getting the help he needs.
This sounds (at least in part) like a "cry for help"...or at least a giant red flag that something is going wrong or getting worse for him.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Can I bring up what may be an unpopular topic?
How does being bipolar lead to being so vindictive? I have very limited experience with anyone who is bipolar, but in reflecting on those experiences, I still blame the person for their horrible actions instead of their disease.
This is because not everyone who is bipolar acts like that, and because I don't understand how cycling between manic and depressive leads to maliciousness without a little push from the person inside. Is there something I don't understand? Also, do people who do terrible things while bipolar feel a need to apologize for those things when they get it under control? Why or why not?
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
((kq)), about the fear. You can take comfort that CPS now knows the informant is a liar.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
kat,
It might help to think of mental illness as loosely tied to the labels put on them. Every individual mind is different, and so is the expression of mental illness. There may be commonalities -- the cycling of moods in bipolar disorders is definitional, so every person who is diagnosed as "bipolar" has at least some cyclical mood swings that reach enough of an extreme (at at least one of the ends of the swing) to be a problem.
Some people have more than one problem too. Paranoid ideas mixed in with bipolar disorders aren't that uncommon.
And then you have to consider what people are like even when they're doing well. If a person comes into their bipolar disorder already having problems coping with anger, or not exactly high on the human empathy scale, or perhaps both, they can tend toward inappropriate behaviors without much of a push.
It's not just bipolar at that point, of course.
But then, I submit that it never is.
It's why there's usually value in going to a professional therapist instead of just getting the medications. They are trained to look for what else might be going on, what behaviors, ideas and situations are most problematic for a particular person.
...
Having said all that, I'll also say that trust between the patient and therapist is crucial, and that the "science" of this kind of thing is not as far along as in other areas of medicine. It ain't engineering, that's for sure.
Different therapists are better at treating different disorders as well. Someone who is really good at treating folks with bipolar disorder is likely to have gotten there by treating lots of them, studying a lot, and learning from mistakes.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Personal experiences may vary a great deal with this kind of thing, and I know a lot of people just hate the whole Psychiatric and therapeutic Psychology profession with a passion.
I've seen people helped by both meds and a good careful clinical approach.
I've seen very few people helped by meds alone (i.e. prescribed by a general practitioner with little Psych training) and very few helped by talk-therapies alone (i.e., without meds). I have also seen a few people who were not helped much by anything that the Psychiatric or Psychological professionals caring for them had to offer.
But...I've seen a lot more people who got worse without any such help, and who got MUCH worse by trying to solve the problems in other ways (including self-medicating).
So...that probably answered questions other than what you asked, but I sort of anticipated this thread taking the usual Hatrackian detour into stories of how bad Psychiatry is in general, so I figured I'd take the opportunity to get ahead of the curve.
Posted by Clip (Member # 10533) on :
Mania is sometimes associated with psychosis (delusions, halluciinations, paranoia), which is a break with reality. Because mania affects the frontal lobes of the brain, the normal disinhibition may be turned off. People may not remember what they have done or said later.
You might have only seen people in one part of the spectrum. There is something called Hypomania which has much less extreme symptoms and no psychosis.
Even without psychosis, it isn't uncommon for people with mania to behave in ways that are very unlike what they are in a non-manic state. For example, steroids like prednisone can bring on mania, and the gentlest Sunday School teacher can be transformed into rage.
If you have to draw it to something bad within the person, I guess none of us are without some element of a sinful nature, the Natural Man. Maybe it would make sense to you that this brings it out.
Posted by Clip (Member # 10533) on :
Mania and brain injury http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/17/1/122 "On the other hand, growing evidence from structural neuroimaging studies indicates that mania is associated with anatomical abnormalities of the frontal lobe and that its course was found to be independent of cognitive impairment"
The brain itself doesn't work the same with more severe forms of mania, maybe less severe too.
The brain scans of people right in full-blown, more severe mania look like the brain scans of people who have had brain injuries that make them do or say things they would not have done or said otherwise. The areas light up with use or black out in the same patterns.
[ June 06, 2007, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Clip ]
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
KQ, Katharina,
All joking aside I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder about 2 months ago.
I'm only 20 but I have and continue to do things which sometimes boggle my mind when i'm in and 'up' fase. Now I imagine that this poor guy has been walking around bipolar and undiagnosed for quite some time as he's at least in his 30ies.
When you are bipolar & feeling good you tend to loose an understanding of the impact of your actions & of the actual functioning of the real world. As explored by the other forum members there may infact be some sort of reason he was able to justify his act to himself. Or perhaps he's in a down phase. If this is the case then he's feeling pretty shitty right now. It may be better to confront him 1 to 1 rather than over the phone to actually understand if he himself is suffering through something unbrearable.
Spotting bipolarity is simple; think back on what you have witnessed since growing up with him. Has he had periods of great activity, creativity, & understanding during which he has been very productive & enthusiastic? During these periods was he able to sleep? Or did he tend to devote himself to projects tirelessly? If so, then were there also times when he always seemed down, either morose or verging on sick, slow, negative, hyper-sensitive, etc...
If you can think back and realize that this is the case then something should be done in conjuction with the rest of the family asap to get him in therapy & perhaps on meds.
We bi's tend to loose it & either kill ourselves when down or commit the ultimate mistake when up.
A friend of my dad's flipped out & thought the CIA where chasing him. He disappeared for weeks & was finally picked up in Italy's Rome airport by police for lurking & shipped back to the insane asylum.
It just gets worse if left untreated.
- MaSTERdb
[ June 06, 2007, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Madb ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:I don't know how across-the-board this type of behavior is, though.
It isn't. At least, it's no more across-the-board behavior than it is for people without bipolar disorder. With mania, filters get shut off, impulsivity goes into overdrive, and thoughts that are normally fleeting and quickly chases away become actions instead. And quite often, the actions are deeply regretted once a person is stable. At times, it's almost like being possessed by an uncivilized stranger.
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
Dude that BS you ifnd in most bipolar books.
I love the manic states & remember exactly what I do.
My creativity is increased ten fold, as is my productivity, sensuality, outgoingness & general good vibes.
But I act like a jerk and really irk people. I've done things i'd rather never speak of again whilst manic. But I have also accomplished quite alot while manic.
Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde
The Genious/lunatic conflict within ones mind is fascinating.
- MaSTERdb
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Madb: My creativity is increased ten fold, as is my productivity, sensuality, outgoingness & general good vibes.
At least, it feels that way to you. I realize you've only recently been diagnosed, and you are almost certainly in denial about the disease. But many bipolar sufferers soon discover than any "enhancements" that come with the mania aren't worth the damage they do to their relationships with other people. Finding the right combination of meds works wonders.
Then again, you may be one of those who chooses to embrace their mania. Those people tend to spend the remainder of their lives on and off meds, usually manage to destroy all friendships and family ties within about 10 years, cannot stay employed . . .
I've seen both of these scenarios play out. I sincerely hope you choose the first one.
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
<Removed.>
[ June 07, 2007, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Madb—you might want to consider that you aren't the sole authority on what the experience of having bipolar disorder is like.
Not everyone considers mania a blessing.
quote:Dude that BS you ifnd in most bipolar books.
You might want to consider that the books aren't BS.
quote:I love the manic states & remember exactly what I do.
Others do as well, but when they take a look back at those memories, they cringe in shame as they try to put back together the smashes pieces that's become their lives.
quote:My creativity is increased ten fold, as is my productivity, sensuality, outgoingness & general good vibes.
While others find that while their creativity and productivity have come to a screeching halt as their mania does everything it can to rip apart the fabric of a life.
quote:The Genious/lunatic conflict within ones mind is fascinating.
Though, it tends to be much less dangerous, though no less fascinating, when looked at from without and from a place of safety.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Robert Lowell had bipolar and went through 16 years of therapy before a simple lithium (I believe?) pill treatment balanced his moods for the rest of his life.
kq: Wow! Hopefully everything will work out well in the future.((KQ))
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My brother is diagnosed bipolar, but that condition may be partially the result of long-term use of medication he didn't need at the time when he was a kid; his brain kind of became dependent on it. There is also a family history, my sister got manic and had a psychotic break in college. He was on a really high dose and when he graduated quit it cold-turkey. He's had rages since he went on the meds and he never really learned to control himself because in his special schools, when he would throw a chair or something the consequence was a time-out room and adjusting his meds.
Well, when he turned 18 he got in a fight and punched a guy, he says in self-defense (he also says in typical style that he was framed and only raised his arm to defend himself, did not actually punch, but that one I don't believe, and I'm not sure about the self-defense; he doesn't seem to be lying but sometimes he believes things that aren't true.) For that, he's now on probation (although I think it's over soon.)
My family is kind of at the end of our ropes with him. He's got himself kicked out or left my mom's and dad's houses-- twice each. No one else feels safe having him stay with them, either. Even his white supremacist friends whose praises he sang for the way they "stick together" don't want him any more. He moved across the country to NJ, got paranoid, moved to CT, got paranoid, moved to PA, got paranoid, moved to NY, got paranoid and came home. He's not being physically violent or threatening it right now so we can't get him placed on a psychiatric hold against his will, and he says all psychiatrists and psychologists are evil and won't even talk to them. He has brief spurts of lucidity where he says "Man, I was so manic" and "I should get me back on some lithium", but then he denies ever saying it two days later. We all love him but we don't know what to do with him; we miss the little boy he was once but can't stand to be around the man he's become.
It's very sad.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:we miss the little boy he was once but can't stand to be around the man he's become.
Maybe he hasn't yet really become the man he's meant to become and there's hope for him still, though you and your family really have done all you can for him. He'll have to want the help and make the decision to take control of his illness and no one can make him do that aside from himself. It's like an addict finally choosing to overcome their addiction.
But I hope that he does choose the path of treatment, finds his stability, and you and your family can finally meet who he's meant to be. And maybe he can meet himself, as well.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I hope so.
I was also diagnosed manic-depressive but don't actually need medication. (I tried to tell them that for years and their response was to put me on more, so I learned to keep quiet until I was 18, when I weaned myself off.)
I know a LOT of my brother's stuff is a function of the screwed up environments he's been in, including our homes growing up. It's not all the manic-depressive stuff, some of it is learned behavior that, at some point, must have helped him to survive. But when I try to offer loving help or advice and get cussed out for my trouble, I just... I wish I could re-wind his personality sometimes, see where it went wrong, you know? See if there was something we could have changed if we'd known what would happen (not that my mom necessarily would have but that's another story.)
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
But no one could have known the outcome, really. Him un-learning those behaviors would need to be treated by talk therapy (as Bob had mentioned) and that can really only be successful (at least it seems in his case) when his disorder is treated with medication to stabilize him mood-wise.
I wish you all the best. You're in one really rough spot.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Thanks.
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
KQ,
Not to steal this thread away from it's topic, but i've been resisting stong encouragement from my Father, Mother, Shrink and Grandparents to get on Meds. Honestly i'm terrified of the idea and I honestly don't feel I need them to keep in control of my manic & depressive states. All I need is excercise, a stable home enviornment, sleep, food and distraction.
I have never purposefully hurt anyone either friend of family while manic or depressive.
Granted; i've done some shady & altogether creepy things whilst manic & depressive, but never to anyone else.
You guys honestly think I should medicate?
- MaSTERdb
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Probably.
I think you should be regularly seeing and trust both a psychatrist (to make that determination) and a therapist (to develop new, healthier behaviors).
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
<Removed.>
[ June 07, 2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't want to go to work when I'm sick. Growing up blows.
It is, however, better than the alternative.
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
Nah you don't get it.
Have you ever taken Lithium?
Have you ever taken Shrooms?
That stuff is much worse than the flu.
- MaSTERdb
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You're not really comparing it with the flu, though - you're comparing it with a life where you do NOT get the disease under control.
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
AT least when I don't control it I have moments of genius.
I live for them.
There is no such thing as a 'normal' person, I don't know why we all try so hard to conform to unattainable ideals.
- MaSTERdb
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Sometimes it can take a while to get the right medication, but believe me...it's worth it. Maybe lithium isn't for you. There are plenty of other options.
-pH
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Granted; i've done some shady & altogether creepy things whilst manic & depressive, but never to anyone else.
How would you characterize your posts on this forum so far?
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
<Removed.>
[ June 07, 2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Kq- I'm sorry this happened.
From my understanding, there is no advantage to letting CPS in without a warrant. I wouldn't, eve at 1:30 in the morning.
I hope your brother will be willing to accept help soon.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: Granted; i've done some shady & altogether creepy things whilst manic & depressive, but never to anyone else.
How would you characterize your posts on this forum so far?
quote:Ah get off my back TD who the **** do you think you are anyways?
- MaSTERdb
Asked and answered.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by romanylass: Kq- I'm sorry this happened.
From my understanding, there is no advantage to letting CPS in without a warrant. I wouldn't, eve at 1:30 in the morning.
I hope your brother will be willing to accept help soon.
Yeah; it was 1:30, or I probably wouldn't have let them in. But the cop stuck his foot in the door and wouldn't even let me close it to keep the cats from getting out. I was exhausted, I was intimidated, I was in my nightgown with three strange men at the door, and I didn't want to wake the neighbors. So I let them in. But they have been in once and they won't be in again.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
quote:AT least when I don't control it I have moments of genius.
Having moments during which you feel like a genius isn't exactly the same as having moments when you are a genius. In fact, the two experiences can have opposite effects.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:But the cop stuck his foot in the door and wouldn't even let me close it to keep the cats from getting out.
Uncalled for. That's ridiculous.
But for the future, nobody has a right to intimidate you to let them in, and they have no legal right of entry without a warrant. The right response would have been: "Please remove your foot from my door. I appreciate you are here to do your job, but this is a false complaint and I will have to ask you to leave now so my children and I can get back to sleep. Please leave me some contact information so that we can get this straightened out during normal business hours. Thank you and good night."
Of course, it's really easy for me to say that, given that I was not there, and it's full daylight and I'm comfortable at my computer. I know if it happened to me the way it did you, I would have been frightened and upset too.
The good thing is that it's all over now. I hope he does get some help and you never have to go through such an awful experience again. (((kq)))
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
I am so sorry this happened to you. I would seriously think long and hard about cutting off contact with the brother. I have a bipolar son and can somewhat understand the challenges with the illness. But you need to protect your kiddos. Next time he may get a buddy to call for him. I have good friends whose children were seriously messed up being taken from their home without good cause. It took so long to get them back that relationships within the family were seriously damaged. I no longer make assumptions that CPS will do what is really in the best interest of the child and will see good people and leave them alone.
Do not let them in but always be polite. If they show up again contact an attorney just in case.
I am sooooo sorry. What a scary scary thing.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah, if they come back I have a response all ready. "Do you have a warrant? No? Then I will let you in when you have one. In the mean time I am going to contact my lawyer." But I am hoping they will not.
I was just so shocked (and tired) my mind went blank. You know, I had never thought about what I would say if CPS showed up with cops in the middle of the night. In the daytime, sure, but I wasn't expecting it until I started homeschooling my kids. So I didn't have a response ready in my head when they showed up.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Madb: Yes, take medication, get treatment, take control of your illness. Katharina and others have given you very good advice. It's up to you to do what you will with it. As someone who's been through the long process of stabilizing bipolar disorder, I say it's completely, entirely worth it. If you're ever interesting in a constructive conversation about it, I'm more than open to discussing the process with you. However, if you just want to act as you have been in this thread, dismissing good, solid, well-meaning advice from others with swearing and disdain, then I don't see a point in continuing to talk with you about bipolar disorder and its treatment.
These are good people. Stop spitting in their faces.
KQ: I forgot to mention that my first thought I had after I read that someone called CPS on you was, "Why would they do that? There's certainly nothing to find in her household." Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I was also diagnosed manic-depressive but don't actually need medication.
Out of curiosity, how can you tell? Comrade MadB doesn't need it either, or so he says.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, simply put, I was erroneously diagnosed, when I was 12, on the basis of an adverse reaction to antidepressents that I also didn't actually need (my mom lied to the doctor to get him to give them to me. I never got to speak to him alone.) All my later doctors never believed me when I said I'd do better without them, and refused to even try taking me off. When I was 18 I tapered myself off, AMA, and have been doing so much better ever since. I don't get manic any more. I no longer get suicidal or go into rages so bad that I have to shut myself in my room and scream or want to cut myself. That, right there, should tell you something.
And between you, me, and the rest of the forum, I'm not sure I believe a word MadB says in this thread, given his other posts.
Posted by Madb (Member # 10532) on :
I wouldn't either, little bastard goes around spitting in peoples faces all day.
Look; i'm sorry to have offended you, although I do admit i'm rather confused. I, myself, have found nothing I have said thus far offending or insulting. Perhaps if you could help me conform to the rules of this e-community rather than calling me a lier and a child I may be able to turn some frowns upside down.
- MaSTERdb
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Polite. Respectful. Refraining from profanity or crude/rude figures of speech. Giving other posters the benefit of the doubt. Recognising that they may have experiences you don't know of. Even when you disagree, listening. Proper spelling and grammar, or your best shot at it (use of spell check recommended).
Hatrack isn't like most other forums. There's a largely self-moderated code of behaviour. Flamers and trolls generally don't last very long here.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If you really want to learn how to be a poster here on Hatrack, I suggest that you lurk without posting for a while so that you can get a feel for the place.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Wow, KQ - how horrible!
I'm sure CPS will be able to see that you have a loving family and you and Jeff are more than capable parents.
But what a sucky thing to happen.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
This whole situation is awful. And, while his behavior is inexcusable, I have the most sympathy for your brother, Kq, because he sounds like a very unhappy, self-tortured, insecure person. I hope he realizes how much the rest of the family really does love and care about him no matter what he does.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Yeah, if they come back I have a response all ready. "Do you have a warrant? No? Then I will let you in when you have one. In the mean time I am going to contact my lawyer." But I am hoping they will not.
I was just so shocked (and tired) my mind went blank. You know, I had never thought about what I would say if CPS showed up with cops in the middle of the night. In the daytime, sure, but I wasn't expecting it until I started homeschooling my kids. So I didn't have a response ready in my head when they showed up.
Yep,it's not something we tend to expect. I have seen some of my 'net friends have CPS called on them for parenting practices that are legal in the enlightened state of Washington, but not in all states, so I have absorbed a bit of what parent's rights are.
In a nutshell:
Parents do NOT have to let CPS or the police in without a warrant.
Parents have the right to know why CPS is visiting, but not who called.
Parents have the right to RECORD all interactions with CPS/the police, even with a warrant.
(I'm not anti-CPS. I have called them myself-I'm mandated reporter. While I think those parents who keep the video camera byt he door just in case CPS shows up are either paranoid and/or really have somehting to hide, I think every parents should know their basic rights in this area because so few of us do expect it)
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:
You guys honestly think I should medicate?
- MaSTERdb
If your posts on this forum, especially the initial ones, represent your mentality and personality while manic, then yes.
Not even kidding!
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Just reread the subject heading for this thread.
Does anybody else think that, "Livid" sounds like a happy word rather then the proper definition it has?
I feel like in the back of my mind there is a word that sounds very similar to livid but has the opposite meaning. Lucid? Giddy? I can't think of it.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Parents do NOT have to let CPS or the police in without a warrant.
Parents have the right to know why CPS is visiting, but not who called.
Parents have the right to RECORD all interactions with CPS/the police, even with a warrant."
Speaking to these quotes, and to the original post, Wow, holy shizzle.
I live in rural North Carolina. This kind of stuff flies around here like a lead kite. No Social Services person would risk their life with this sort of thing. They'd get shot pulling this.
I'm not saying there aren't some stupid parenting practices going on here, just as there are elsewhere. But could the stuff not wait until daylight?
Whatever. Wow. Big culture shock.
I saw a classified ad from the Social Services HR department in the local paper about 5 years ago. "Wanted--Social Service worker. Will visit families in-home to determine welfare of children. Car and bachelor's degree required."
I had a supervisor at a recent job who, prior to moving here, had been a CPS worker in New York City. I would never have expected her to say this, but she seemed to feel that the chances of being shot/beaten on a CPS visit were so much higher here than in NYC that she decided to changed careers.
I don't know. We're not that bad, IMO. I've never shot anybody.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: "Parents do NOT have to let CPS or the police in without a warrant.
Parents have the right to know why CPS is visiting, but not who called.
Parents have the right to RECORD all interactions with CPS/the police, even with a warrant."
Speaking to these quotes, and to the original post, Wow, holy shizzle.
I live in rural North Carolina. This kind of stuff flies around here like a lead kite. No Social Services person would risk their life with this sort of thing. They'd get shot pulling this.
I'm not saying there aren't some stupid parenting practices going on here, just as there are elsewhere. But could the stuff not wait until daylight?
Whatever. Wow. Big culture shock.
I saw a classified ad from the Social Services HR department in the local paper about 5 years ago. "Wanted--Social Service worker. Will visit families in-home to determine welfare of children. Car and bachelor's degree required."
I had a supervisor at a recent job who, prior to moving here, had been a CPS worker in New York City. I would never have expected her to say this, but she seemed to feel that the chances of being shot/beaten on a CPS visit were so much higher here than in NYC that she decided to changed careers.
I don't know. We're not that bad, IMO. I've never shot anybody.
Maybe its something in the water.
*must resist urge to make a comment about food*
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I have seen some of my 'net friends have CPS called on them for parenting practices that are legal in the enlightened state of Washington, but not in all states, so I have absorbed a bit of what parent's rights are.
Um, now I'm curious...
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Extended nursing, unattended homebirth, and not vaccinating come to mind.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oooooh.
I think those are all legal everywhere in America, although you have to fight for it more in some states than in others.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I just got the most infuriating call from a man who did not seem to understand the phrase "get a warrant."
He apparently thought that arguing with me and defining the mission of Chidren and Family Services was going to help change my mind.
And he also said that "police officers can enter anyone's home at any time for any reason." When I defined "probable cause" for him, he seemed dumbfounded.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Is this still going on?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I got a call that they want to make a "follow up" visit.
I told them to get a warrant.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Crap. I would have thought they'd figure things out at the first one. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I was just really frustrated at his seeming uncomprehension of the definition of "probable cause".
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
I don't think it would help him in his job to understand the law .
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I wonder how much is really difficulty in comprehension and how much is seeming difficulty in comprehension. Either way, sucks for you. Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
I truly can sympathize with you, KQ. Someone made unfounded calls about my family to CPS 12 years ago, and again seven years ago. These calls happened 500 miles apart. Both times it was done simply for vengeance.
For us, the children, it was one of the scariest experiences of our lives, but our parents kept a lot of the details hidden. I think it was because the investigation was even worse than we could have imagined.
Hugs all around, and keep fighting. They'll have to be satisfied that there is no abuse or whatever, but you clearly know your rights, so their harassment will end when they see that you won't back down from the fight.
Edited for redundance
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: And he also said that "police officers can enter anyone's home at any time for any reason." When I defined "probable cause" for him, he seemed dumbfounded.
It absolutely boggles my mind that he would say this.
I'm so sorry that you're still dealing with this whole situation, kq. It sounds terrible.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think he's used to dealing with people, well, not quite so educated as me, who are more afraid to stand up to authority figures than I am.
While I'm not afraid to stand up for my rights, I hate being in this situation, it takes a toll on me. I was so upset after speaking with him that I had an asthma attack and had to use my inhaler.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Refer him to the Bill of Rights. He seems oddly unfamiliar with it.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
kq, I understand completely. I don't do well in such situations, either. Not that I've ever dealt with CPS, having neither lived in the US nor never having had children, but you get what I mean. I usually end up with migraines. Asthma attacks suck. Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
(((kq)))
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Perhaps a lawyer is in order?
I was thinking that you might want to schedule an appointment with this person's supervisor or the chief/sheriff in charge of whatever law enforcement agency sent people to your door.
While I support the folks doing jobs like CPS and law enforcement, I don't like it when they try to run roughshod over people's rights. It gives them a very bad name in the community, I think, and isn't really worth the time savings they get from it, in the long run.
I'm glad you are not caving in.
I hope they decide you aren't worth the trouble.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
One possible area of confusion is that police officers have the right to request access to a house at any time for any reason. This guy may have internalized this lesson very poorly. Which doesn't excuse him at all, of course.
Posted by Dead_Horse (Member # 3027) on :
Unfortunately, CPS doesn't seem to have a process for saying, "Oh, ok, well, never mind."
Once the case is triggered, it seems to have to go through the entire process before it goes away. This includes the follow-up visits, and parenting classes or meetings. I don't know if getting an attorney and going to court over it would help or hurt. Here in our small rural community, I usually recommend that the innocent victim follow through and cooperate with the visits and inspections to get the case to end as quickly as possible.
The most recent one I have been involved in took about 2 months to process. A neighbor in a low-income housing community falsely reported because the mother wouldn't let the neighbors take her wireless phone to their apartment and keep it for hours. There was an initial visit, fortunately during daylight hours, and two follow-ups with enough notice given to allow for a good housecleaning. After the third visit, the case was closed and noted with no evidence of abuse or neglect.
I know good parents who have lost their children to the foster system, one cooperating and several resisting the investigations, and it scares me. You are in my prayers. I wish this had not happened to you.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, he just showed up for a "follow up" visit. I answered all his questions-- with him standing at the door.
He woke me AGAIN, this time from a morning nap. And I have cramps. It was VERY hard to be polite.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Unfortunately, CPS doesn't seem to have a process for saying, "Oh, ok, well, never mind."
I think they do in some states/areas. Not here, apparently. And the guy I got stuck with is an IDIOT (or at least acting like one.) He seems not-quite-fluent in English, too. The night worker was much more polite and less belligerent-- and spoke better English.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I am so sorry you're still going through this.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I too would normally go with the path of least resistance, but this situation is different. They clearly got a bad tip, it sounds suspiciously like it came from a mentally ill person from the immediate family who has a temporary grudge, and the suprise visit turned up some dirty dishes.
What could they possibly get from scheduled follow-up visits? It's a waste of their supposedly limited resources. It's a waste of kq's time. AND it is disruptive to her family.
On top of that, people have lied to her (whether intentionally or not) and been rude.
There is a point where the average citizen simply must say "STOP" to our government if we are going to retain any rights at all. If not in a case this obvious, then when?
If, some of the above is flat wrong -- e.g., kq's brother isn't really the "tipster," then maybe they'd have some reason other than "process" to keep visiting. But really, if all of that stuff is the way this really got started, then they are closing in on harassment, in my humble opinion.
Again, I'd say that getting some legal advice in your local area might be prudent. I'm sure there are lawyers around who can tell you just what the limits are, and what you're in for if you decide to fight versus cooperate.
The fact that this bozo is likely to continue to call you at odd hours, or inconvenience you until you submit to his will makes me think that there should be some sort of civilian review board. If one doesn't already exist, maybe you could help to start one.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
If they give me any kind of trouble or keep threatening me (he's made implied threats about removing my children if I don't let him in twice, now), I will be calling Legal Aid.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Oh, man, if CPS came to my house... eek. We're in the middle of moving all of our furniture to the basement so that we can refinish the floors. Our house is a COMPLETE disaster inside and out.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Wow, ketchupqueen -- what an annoyance to have to deal with when life is far too complicated already! Especially with kids 'n all. How are they taking it, by the way?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If they give me any kind of trouble or keep threatening me (he's made implied threats about removing my children if I don't let him in twice, now), I will be calling Legal Aid.
How "implied" were they? If they were at all explicit - if he connected asserting your rights with removal of the children - I'd call legal aid now. Any charitable interpretation I might have put on his lack of knowledge of due process is gone if he made that kind of threat.
I might demand the name of his supervisor, too, but I'd probably want to talk to someone with experience with that particular CPS office first, just to find out how vindictive they are.
I'd also ask someone locally what the rules are for recording conversations and find out if CA a one or two party consent state. Based solely on your descriptions here, this guy strikes me as possibly vindictive and dishonest.
My inclination on this would have been a meeting in the CPS office to find out exactly what the allegations are and a written commitment from CPS that following steps X-Y-Z would close the matter. Again, though, I'd want local information about the office before attempting that.
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
I have several friends who have lost their kids to CPS for NO legal reason and the court battle to get them back has almost destroyed their families. PLEASE KQ call an attorney now. Try to find one that is familiar with CPS and has dealt with them before. Don't risk losing your kids because someone with a little power feels you are undermining his authority. Its too risky.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
KQ: I am so so sorry this is still going on. I know its rough but stay as calm as you can throughout this situation. This guy sounds like the wrong guy to give the yelling treatment too. Its monstrous, but any treatment you give him can be unfairly linked to how you may be treating your own children.
Use your head, and if it seems right follow the advise of smarter (smarter then me that is) people on this thread. Lets hope this all just blows over and you don't have to worry about this nonsense again.
There needs to be a human decency enforcement agency, HDEA. They would give your brother a swift kick to the butt and a harsh talking to for this infraction.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
IANAL, but California is a TWO-party consent state. However, there are exceptions:
quote: In the state of California, one party consent can be applied only under circumstances in which one party is involved in criminal activity which would include extortion or blackmail.
kq, it really does sound like you should call Legal Aid now, just in case. *hug*
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I'm gonna jump on the "call a lawyer NOW" bandwagon, KQ. This whole thing sounds really strange.
Are we absolutely positively certain that he's truly from CPS? As in, have you called them with his ID in hand and confirmed that he is who he claims to be and that he's supposed to be there at that immediate point in time? I suddenly got a bad feeling that he's trying to case the joint to see if you have anything worth stealing at some later date.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
((hugs))
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Are we absolutely positively certain that he's truly from CPS? As in, have you called them with his ID in hand and confirmed that he is who he claims to be and that he's supposed to be there at that immediate point in time?
Yes.
And I've got a call from the nurse there, too; I'm trying to decide whether to speak to her or make her get a court order for my kids' medical records.
I guess it is time to call a lawyer. But I'm just sick of it, I guess I was hoping they'd just leave me alone (he didn't say anything about another follow-up visit last time he was here.)
The implied threats were pretty implied. He was careful about that.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Yes, make her get a court order.
Posted by The Reader (Member # 3636) on :
You certainly need a lawyer now. The implied threat is enough of a problem to need the counsel.
My parents stuck to their guns and used all of the legal aid and knowledge they had, and they won. Weaker people would have given in. You aren't weak.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Good luck KQ.
The more I read, the less I can believe, but I am sure that this sort of thing is more common than we care to imagine.
I would urge caution and to please please please get professional advice from people who deal with this thing on a regular basis.
We (Family_Maven) are thinking of you.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
This is all very surreal. Basically, all it takes for a law-abiding, loving parent to be in danger of losing their kids is one, hateful, vindicative report?
Deeply troubling. Disgusting.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I'm so sorry this is still going on KQ.
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
Wow, I've been away from hatrack and missed this. I hope things can be easily resolved KQ. This just sounds really awful. At first I thought I'd misunderstood what CPS meant b/c I thought surely not *that*.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wow. All I can say to this is that I'm sorry you're going through it. What an awful situation!
----------
And to answer your initial, title-question: a crazy person, or a total asshole. Not trying to be flippant there.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
News?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
No more calls or visits this week. They seem to have finished with us.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Yay! I hope so!
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Great!
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Best news I've heard all day.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
That's a load off - really.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Yay!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
If something else happens, consider contacting the Home School Legal Defense Association. Their theology is out to lunch, but the legal service they provide for homeschoolers is extremely valuable. http://www.hslda.org/Default.asp?bhcp=1
CPS could be more annoying simply if they've figured out you are homeschooling your kids, I know other SoCal homeschoolers have had issues with them. http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/CA/default.asp Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
We haven't started homeschooling yet. When we do we will be HSLDA members.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Makes sense
AJ
Posted by lynn johnson (Member # 9620) on :
Just came aboard, sorry for the late intrusion.
KQ, as a psychologist, I can tell you it is tough to do the right thing with bipolars. They are always irritable and on the edge of anger, but they don't see it.
I would take his cell phone off my plan, if I were you, (if you haven't done it already) and I would explain first that because he is acting rudely and argumentatively, he cannot have a phone. If he complies with his meds, then you would consider it.
He will escalate and threaten, so that will tell you to call The Phone Company and cancel his number.
Always tell him at the end of a conversation that you love him and hope he will start treating his illness in a responsible way. "You have an illness and if you don't work to control it, you cannot be part of my life, even though I love you."
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
The problem is that we will pay a hefty penalty for cancelling his contract early. We can't afford that.
Also, he does not have health insurance, does not have a psychiatrist (or psychologist), does not have a current prescription, and that "when you comply with your meds" sounds threatening to me, so I would not say it to him.
Posted by lynn johnson (Member # 9620) on :
BannaOJ, what theology is on the home schooling site that is out to lunch? I was just looking at it -- thanks for the link -- and I didn't see anything that seems unreasonable. I just read Michael Farris's statement of beliefs.
We home schooled one of our kids for a year and it was the best year he had in Elementary School. But it drove my wife crazy, she was afraid she was missing out on some important topic. I think it is a great way to educate kids. I wish ours had been.
It looks pretty good.
Posted by lynn johnson (Member # 9620) on :
Hum. . . most places have public mental health facilities where one can get treatment & meds at little or no charge. The problem is if he doesn't comply with the meds, he will continue to act out.
Perhaps you could offer to go with him to the public mental health facilities in your area? LA is so full of crazies, it seems it would be easy to find some cheap or free mental health.
Well, I gotta get off line now. I will check back later. Good luck with a bad situation.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I've seen the Robinson curriculum. I've seen a lot. I have no opinions yet about what I will use to teach my kids, except that it will involve a lot of kinetic involvement for my oldest, because she is a heavily kinetic learner.
The HSLDA is a little "out there theologically" to me, because they assume that all their members are a) Christian and b) homeschooling to keep their children from the evil world. I am Christian, but I am also Mormon, and don't think they are all that inclusive in their definition of "Christian." And my goal in homeschooling will be to provide my child with a better education than the local schools can provide and give her more individual attention and materials adapted to her needs (she has SPD, like me, so new experiences have to be introduced slowly and she sometimes needs a few minutes to isolate or self-soothe or other adaptations and understanding, she has an unusual learning style, and she is extremely bright), and also to provide her with opportunities to learn to interact happily and lovingly with those around her, which the local elementary school, to my mind, can't do effectively any more (they've had a ton of problems with bullying, weapons and drugs at school, beatings, etc.) It is NOT my goal in homeschooling to protect her from the outside world or the ideas of the world-- and I will teach my kids about evolution. So I don't know that their worldview exactly lines up with mine.
That said, they do provide excellent "insurance" against legal difficulty, which is why I will be a member, whatever I think about their views.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by lynn johnson: LA is so full of crazies, it seems it would be easy to find some cheap or free mental health.
Yes, nothing says "reputable psychologist" like calling a group of people "crazies."
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I think you missed his point: LA being so full of crazies, there must be a legion of people ready to treat them.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I've been exposed to HSLDA since childhood, as I was homeschooled and have indirect personal contacts with the founders. I don' tknow if my mother was a charter member of HSLDA but pretty close.
Among other things many of their leadership are personally into "courtship" ideas which get pretty far out there at times.
I went to their site for the first time in a while and the rhetoric appears to be toned down since the last time I was there.
This is their statement.
" Is HSLDA a Christian organization?
Yes; however, HSLDA’s mission is to protect the freedom of all homeschoolers. Although our officers and directors are Christians, HSLDA membership is not limited to religiously based homeschoolers. We respect parents' rights to make the appropriate choices for the upbringing of their children. We have no agenda to make all public and home-based classrooms religious or conservative. Our primary objective is to preserve the fundamental right of parents to choose home education, free of over-zealous government officials and intrusive laws. We do put on a national conference annually and invite the board members of state organizations with whom we have worked for many years. Most, if not all, of those organizations have Christian leaders, but many serve all homeschoolers regardless of religious affiliation, as we do."
They openly support their "Patrick Henry College" with HSLDA finances (also on the Q and A page) and if I were a non-Christian homeschooler I'd have more problems giving them my membership fees as a result.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You're right, they have toned it down in the past couple of years since I've been to their site.
Being Christian has never been a requirement to join but I do remember them being a bit more, um, pro-fundamentalist in their wording.
Posted by lynn johnson (Member # 9620) on :
BO, ok, I see what you are saying. I wouldn't quite fit with them either.
PC: "Crazies" is a technical term we use to describe people who are kind of crazy. <GRIN, WINK> Thanks to JH who caught the meaning.
Finally, KQ: I Yahooed Los Angeles public mental health. Here is the link http://dmh.lacounty.gov/
Here is the contact info: For free, confidential mental health information, referrals to service providers, and crisis counseling at any day or time, call our 24/7 ACCESS CENTER at 1-800-854-7771.
They are supposed to offer mental health treatment at low or no cost to severely and persistently mentally ill people, and your brother qualifies, since he has a major mental illness and has no health insurance. How good are they? Probably better than nothing. They do know how to treat BPD, since they see so much of it.
Good luck. YOu need it, given the difficulty of treating BPD.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Interestingly my brothers, who although adult remain much more plugged into fundamentalist Christian homeschooling community in CA than I am and they say that the younger generations of homeschoolers are just plain "messed up" both academically and socially.
I'm no longer a practicing Christian, and those that go into it for the "Godly education" reasons may be surprised by the actual numbers of homeschooled kids out there who aren't any longer practicing Christians, however I don't expect to find those actual statistics anywhere on the HSLDA site, as compiling the numbers would be difficult.
Among the 20 or so kids who were the nucleus of the first homeschooling families in Ventura County, I'm pretty certain that only roughly 50% are actually Christians today. (I have knowledge of many of those kids lifestyles that their parents have little clue about.)
As far as socialization for well-adjusted homeschooled kids in society goes, I'd actually say most of them are contributing members of society. However their (and my) parents bent over backwards to give a wide spectrum of social experiences that current homeschoolers don't seem to emphasize, either socially or academically.
One of my brothers is expecting a child, and I'm thinking they will probably homeschool it. It will be interesting to see their impressions on other homeschooling families in this generation compared to our generation.
AJ
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah, but if he doesn't seek help they can't help him.
I am familiar with the public health resources-- which, when it comes to mental health, are crappy-- but I also know that it's up to him to seek treatment.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(accidental double post from above)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: However their (and my) parents bent over backwards to give a wide spectrum of social experiences that current homeschoolers don't seem to emphasize, either socially or academically.
I think it depends on the area and the sub-group of homeschoolers. I know that both the part of Dallas where I used to live when I first considered homeschooling and the current area I'm in (a rather wealthy part of L.A., for the most part, despite the specific problems with our neighborhood) have excellent homeschool networks, "umbrella schools", and a wide range of other opportunities for socialization/association. The local group here has weekly "field days" in the park; the group in the area I used to live in had a baseball team that went to nationals. So it probably largely depends on the community, and the individual parents/kids involved.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I hear you. I definitely think that a homeschool group with a healthy salting of ex-hippie sorts seems to help. But there also appears to be a significant segment of highly over protected homeschooled youngsters in SoCal also, that are incapable of rendering decisions without their parents present. That subset is one of the largest reasons my mother got out of the homeschooling consulting business.
She was a die-hard homeschooling advocate for many years. And she still is as far as civil liberties go. But what these parents were doing to their kids both academically and socially appears to have gotten up her craw. In some ways these types are singlehandly reversing much of the progress that her generation of homeschooling parents made.
AJ
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I have met a lot of those, too. I agree with you, there are some people who just should not homeschool if they really want what's best for their kids-- or at least, shouldn't do it the way they're currently doing it.
Posted by lynn johnson (Member # 9620) on :
If your brother is true to form, this kind of thing will happen from time to time. There seems to be a "period" or length of time BPD cycles, and it varies from person to person. Some can be faily stable but every three months, the wheels just come off (ok, more technical talk) and things go to hell in the handbasket.
I say that by way of innoculating you. He may try something like that again the next time he gets crossways with the rest of the family.
BannaOj, I do know one person whose "home schooling' was just keeping the kids around the house so she wouldn't be alone. They were years behind academically. The ex-husband got custody of the kids based on their increasingly greater gaps of basic skills and knowledge. Maybe the pioneers were creating the kids who go to Harvard and Stanford because they are so advanced and then the real pathological parents jumped on the bandwagon. But KQ seems like a sharp tool and should be able to do a great job as a home school mom. I have read a lot of her posts in other topics. And her network will make a huge difference.
Movie: Mean Girls. The two home school stereotypes she refers to at the beginning. One is a national spelling bee finalist, and the other are shirtless kids in overalls saying, "An, on the sixth day, God created the Remington Bolt Action Rifle, so Man could kill the dinosaurs." <southern accent>
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve:
quote:Originally posted by lynn johnson: LA is so full of crazies, it seems it would be easy to find some cheap or free mental health.
Yes, nothing says "reputable psychologist" like calling a group of people "crazies."
I was thinking the same thing myself.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Lynn, I know kq has been on other homeschooling threads where I've participated. I am in no way questioning her ability in particular to homeschool her children.
I haven't seen Mean Girls, but there's a South Park Episode with homeschoolers in it that absolutely cracked me up.
I have zero desire for children of my own at this point in time, however if I did have children, I would not rule out homeschooling as an option. I think the most important thing homeschooling gave me, was Time to random interesting things I wanted to, and my mother encouraged this. I would characterize much of my childhood before adolescence as idyllic, although it was far from perfect.
There were many good things about being homeschooled. The drawbacks began as I got older. I'd had this wonderful preparation for Living Real Life and as a result was ready for it at a much younger age than traditional. They couldn't let me go and grow on my own when I really needed to because so much of their own self worth was tied up in me.
I haven't turned out poorly IMO although they consider their parenting a failure because I haven't toed the religious line.
AJ
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(I didn't think my ability to homeschool was being called into question, for what it's worth. You offered some helpful advice and then went on to mention that you see homeschool education deteriorating among the particular group you have the most interaction with, while I do not see that as much in the particular groups I have interacted with. )
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
How old are your kiddos now anyway? AJ
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
BannanaOj: What SP episode, btw? I've watched almost all the episodes (except for the really offensive ones) and can't recall homeschoolers.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I have no idea... I don't think it was the movie... I'd suggest googling... it was probably 4 years ago or so.
AJ
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My kids are 1 and 3-- 14 and 38 months, to be exact.
The three-year-old is currently in a Montessori preschool (in a home near us) two days a week, for whatever period of time she wants to go. Next year I will probably be teaching her to read if she hasn't picked it up on her own already, she's been begging me to for a while but I decided she needs to learn to use the potty first!
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
We have a friend who homeschools some of her children and is a teacher for CAVA ( http://www.caliva.org/ ). I don't know what areas of CA this covers.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I know lots of people who love programs like that. Personally I'm not a fan of them, for my family's needs at least, but to each her own. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, I spoke too soon.
Annoying dude called again, asking me to give them copies of my kids' vaccination records. I told him to get a subpoena or a court order or whatever if he wanted them.
He also didn't seem to know what Healthy Families or a Public Health Clinic were. What a dufus.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea:
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve:
quote:Originally posted by lynn johnson: LA is so full of crazies, it seems it would be easy to find some cheap or free mental health.
Yes, nothing says "reputable psychologist" like calling a group of people "crazies."
I was thinking the same thing myself.
Me three.
I also object to the gross generalization. (If one excludes Hollywood) I doubt L.A. has a higher concentration of "crazies" that most other urban areas. And if I recall the statistics correctly, lower than in Dr. Johnson's neck of the woods.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
AJ, at a 4-H meeting once a parent who often made jokes with me was getting annoyed with some younger kids parents and asked for my email address. The next day she emailed me the clip of South Park with the home schooled kids. Very funny, also not sure what episode it was.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:Good luck. YOu need it, given the difficulty of treating BPD.
Where I worked, BPD stood for borderline personality disorder, not bipolar disorder (BD). And those are two quite different illnesses. They aren't even on the same axis.
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
quote:Originally posted by mackillian:
quote:Good luck. YOu need it, given the difficulty of treating BPD.
Where I worked, BPD stood for borderline personality disorder, not bipolar disorder (BD). And those are two quite different illnesses. They aren't even on the same axis.
Yeah, I found myself scrolling up to see where someone might have mentioned borderline personality disorder.
Having said that, just this week, my daughter's very competent and smart therapist asked what Em's secondary diagnosis was, mangling the pronunciation, asking for details about what the symptoms were. So it is possible that professionals can mix up the names or acronyms and still be, well, professionals...
But the "crazies" comment did kind of throw me for a sec. I'm sure professionals might say stuff like that "in the locker room", so to speak, but I would be surprised to hear it in laypeople's presence.
I'm making no real point, as usual. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: However their (and my) parents bent over backwards to give a wide spectrum of social experiences that current homeschoolers don't seem to emphasize, either socially or academically.
AJ
I think I need to send you a copy of my calander! Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*grin* I should have put a qualifier in there.
that *some* current homeschoolers don't seem to emphasize.
My mother's calandar, used to hang right next to the telephone (pre-cell days) and it was always pretty packed.
AJ
Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
KQ-
I am sorry, this just seems neverending at this point!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It was Lyrhawn who didn't seem to. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
The "yeah" was agreement with you. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I know if it happened to me the way it did you, I would have been frightened and upset too. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I told him to get a subpoena or a court order or whatever if he wanted them. ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)