quote:As for the drooling morons assumedly dumbstruck by my glorious hawttness (such as it was), they didn't bother me so much. At some point the poor witless bastards were told that pretty girls existed to be looked at and drooled on, so that's what they did. But I found that with some persistence and effort on my part, men could learn to look past my glorious hawttness and discover the truly loathsome beast beneath. Picking my nose was remarkably effective in forcing men to avert their eyes. So was scratching any odd itch, wherever I might find one. Diligently scratching, like it was a job, digging and scraping with total abandon. Belching was quite effective. Of course, if being gross was not an appropriate strategy there were other things I could do. Asking a pointed, preposterous, ridiculous question, phrased in the most overblown and long-winded faux-intellectual style, while making direct eye contact, also worked, as did acting bat**** insane. Anything I could do to forcibly rip off the veil of "pretty", I did. Pretty, maybe - but not ****able. how could a belching, scratching, nose-picking beast be ****able?
Link (scroll down to May 19).
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Those specific behaviors? No. Other specific behaviors designed to avoid the Gaze? Yes. Often.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Hmm, my standards are low enough not to take any notice.
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
Isn't that nice to know.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Recently I was sitting in slow moving traffic and there was a pretty girl in the car next to me. She happened to look up at me at the same time that I look over and we made eye contact, so I smiled. The car she was in fell behind and then caught back up, but when they pulled beside me the girl flicked me off and based on the look on her face was cursing me out big time. There followed an escalation of offensive gestures.
Another time I was at a public pool with my family. We were sitting on some bleachers next to the pool and a girl walked by. We briefly made eye contact and I said "Hi." She then yelled at the top of her lungs that she was a lesbian.
These are the examples that come to mind first, but this same type of thing has happened several other times. So, what's the rule of thumb (wrist?) here? If you find a stranger attractive, ignore them at all costs? Only be friendly to people you aren't attracted to? Being nice = pervert? (I say this not because I'm only nice to people I'm attracted to, but because people that don't automatically assume I want them tend to be a lot nicer.)
I know there are plenty of guys out there that do and say inappropriate things, but it really bugs me when females assume that any male that looks their way or says something nice is a "poor witless bastards [who was] told that pretty girls existed to be looked at and drooled on." Hey, some of us open the door for, say hello to, or wave at anybody, and if you (general you) think it's all about your "hawttness," then that's your narcisim, not my problem.
[ June 21, 2007, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: vonk ]
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Telling guys you're a lesbian usually only turns them on more =(
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
It's a double standard. If the man who looks at the woman in question is attractive, I'm relatively certain that she won't be offended. (If a look is all it is.) That same look from an unattractive man, and it's unwanted attention.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I didn't care much about guys checking me out, but whether I had one or not, I often mentioned my bf. I found being checked out flattering. Though it seems like once I got married, guys stopped checking me out. One guy friend told me that the wedding ring is the most unappealing thing a woman can wear- the ultimate in not available, don't bother.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Telling guys you're a lesbian usually only turns them on more =(
I think its more they don't believe your totally committed to being a lesbian. So that obnoxious threesome fetish is still on the table. Or perhaps the fact you both think girls are hot is like finding out you have something in common. Honestly speaking sometimes when I observe male behavior it makes complete sense to me that girls find other girls more attractive then men.
Vonk: come to Utah, there are cute girls everywhere and they are for the most part so friendly.
I've had girls give me cat calls from their convertables, and I can't remember the last time I smiled or said "hi" and the girl didn't respond in kind or one step higher.
My wife can't wink without opening her mouth and since its her eyes it naturally makes the edges of her lips raise in a smile. It may just be the cutest thing I have ever seen, and I've never seen anybody else with the same deal.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
thats pretty cool.
Posted by JLM (Member # 7800) on :
As a general rule, I try to be polite and give a nod, smile or sound "howdy" to pretty much everyone I make eye contact with, male or female, attractive or not.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert: It's a double standard. If the man who looks at the woman in question is attractive, I'm relatively certain that she won't be offended. (If a look is all it is.) That same look from an unattractive man, and it's unwanted attention.
That's....not a double standard. It makes sense that women would want attention from men they find attractive more than those they do not find attractive.
Personally, most of the time, attention doesn't bother me. Although I would sometimes appreciate it if they didn't honk their horns and yell things at me from their cars. I would also appreciate it if they weren't leering. There IS a difference between being checked out and being leered at.
-pH
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
pH, I agree. What I'm saying is this.
In a situation when you have two men, giving the same look and smile, where one is attractive and the other isn't, it is incredibly more likely that the unattractive man's look and smile will be seen as 'unwanted attention'.
And as an unattractive male, I would know. Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:Vonk: come to Utah, there are cute girls everywhere and they are for the most part so friendly.
I've had girls give me cat calls from their convertables, and I can't remember the last time I smiled or said "hi" and the girl didn't respond in kind or one step higher.
Well, we can't all be the steeming hunk of man meat that you are. But I'm sure the attitude would vary in different locales, possibly worsening in heavily urban areas.
quote:That's....not a double standard. It makes sense that women would want attention from men they find attractive more than those they do not find attractive.
There's a difference between not particularly wanting the attention and actively trying to prevent it by being rude or offensive. I think that's where it become a double standard.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Well, we can't all be the steeming hunk of man meat that you are. But I'm sure the attitude would vary in different locales, possibly worsening in heavily urban areas.
Steaming hunk of man meat would not even be on a list of phrases to describe me. Though I won't pretend I'm sort of ugly wretch either.
Still after growing up in Hong Kong when I finally moved here at the age of 21 I was taken aback by just how beautiful Utah girls are and with how nice they are.
So of course I married a girl from Washington State Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
I guess it's better to be a steaming hunk than a steaming pile.
(Dogbert, real estate agent: "Initial every page of this steaming pile of documents.")
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
I think that the rule of thumb here is just that some people are jerks and it isn't your fault if they are rude.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I love when women act that way. If you have such a high opinion of yourself that you feel like you have to turn men away from your hawtness, or you can't handle a man saying hi or making eye contact, we guys want to know immediately that you're a jerk so we don't waste our time with you.
I'm sure the woman quoted in the first post thinks she's a real catch, and that she's putting on an act to turn guys off, but anyone who can't be polite isn't worth the time to talk to.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
If a stranger smiles at me, I'll smile back and assume there's no hidden agenda. If a stranger comes up and starts talking, I'll usually be friendly but not encouraging. If a stranger asks if he can buy me a drink, I'll usually decline in one way or another, sometimes with "Thanks, but I don't think my boyfriend would appreciate that" if the guy isn't getting the hint.
The stranger's attractiveness does not have a strong correlation to my responses. As a rule, I don't accept drinks from strangers, but I'm perfectly all right with chatting and meeting new people.
Oh, and I hate catcalls. I often walk home alone after dark (I live close to campus and my friends' places), and they make me incredibly uncomfortable. I find them demeaning and objectifying.
I've even had guys pull over and ask if I need a ride. While I'd like to think that they had the purest of motives in mind, I could never accept.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow:
I'm sure the woman quoted in the first post thinks she's a real catch, and that she's putting on an act to turn guys off, but anyone who can't be polite isn't worth the time to talk to.
Actually, she says that now she's "old, paunchy, frizzy, wrinkled," and therefore "totally invisible," and she's glad. Elsewhere she says she's a "corpulent frightwigged hideous toad."
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
One of my best friends was a male homosexual. We had remarkably similar tastes in men (well, except for that one detail...). One night we went to a dress-up party (me in a tux, him in a ballgown LOL) together where I think I was the only straight person in the bar. He took to telling the gals hitting on me that I was a hermaphrodite because he could tell I was becoming uncomfortable with their fawning over me.
Nowadays, I'd love to be the object of someone's attentions. I'd probably turn into a puddle of jelly with zero brain function if it were to happen, because it's been so long that I seriously don't know how to respond anymore. But I'd still love to have someone show that they're attracted to me.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Haven't done it personally, but I have a friend whose favourite strategy is nose-picking. She does reserve it for the persistent-not-getting-the-plainly-expressed-non-atrraction kind of situation, though.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Goody: Ya, I could use some attention myself now that I'm old =(
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Catcalls are ridiculous. Really ridiculous. They reveal a lack of discipline, control, and contribute to a demeaning environment where pedestrians are scared for their own safety. It's idiotic, anti-social behavior.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I don't generally mind if I get catcalls. Admittedly, it doesn't happen often, which is probably why I don't mind Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I've never gotten a catcall, I don't think*, but I'm sure it would make me very uncomfortable.
*Other than while performing, which doesn't count.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
For the most part, I hate catcalls. I hate men who slow down in their cars/trucks to honk at me as they pass by. Now, if it's a busy street during the day, I don't mind so much. If I'm on a quieter sidestreet....then I mind.
-pH
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I'm with you pH. I remember my step-sister and I walking to the grocery store when we were 15. Some guy (in the passenger seat) actually stuck his head out the window and leaned out where he was practically touching us to get our attention. That was pretty creepy.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I was walking my dog down a really quiet street one morning, and an old man in a car full of what I can only assume were his grandkids was coming in the opposite direction...he slowed to a near dead stop and started saying things to me. *shudder*
I don't really understand the purpose of catcalls from cars to begin with, but THAT...that was supremely creepy.
-pH
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Catcalls used to really creep me out, too, but I found the right approach, I think, and now they are fine. First of all, you have to realize that since the guys in question don't know you from anyone, it isn't personal. They aren't bothering you personally, and there is nothing they want from you. They're just admiring God's creation, in sort of the same way one might admire a sunset or a pretty cloudscape.
Secondly, the fact that they're treating you in such an impersonal fawning fanlike way just shows that they consider themselves beneath you. Run with that concept. They are the fans and you are Marilyn Monroe or Princess Di. They're your public, so of course they adore you. Give them a beautific sweet smile and a Princess Di-like wave. You're distant royalty, they're your subjects. Be a good royal and make their day by acknowledging their worship and recognizing them as your fans. It works great, nobody is threatened, and everyone is made happy. Give it a try, and let me know how it turns out.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I did try that - smiled a hello and then walked away. The same guy three days later showed up on my doorstep, lied to get insided, and grabbed me for heaven knows what. I yelled at him to get out, called the police, and they (he and his wife and children!) moved about two weeks later.
So, yeah, maybe not such a great idea.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
quote: Secondly, the fact that they're treating you in such an impersonal fawning fanlike way just shows that they consider themselves beneath you. Run with that concept. They are the fans and you are Marilyn Monroe or Princess Di. They're your public, so of course they adore you. Give them a beautific sweet smile and a Princess Di-like wave. You're distant royalty, they're your subjects. Be a good royal and make their day by acknowledging their worship and recognizing them as your fans. It works great, nobody is threatened, and everyone is made happy. Give it a try, and let me know how it turns out.
Or that they think of you as a big chunk of meat. Probably a lot more accurate.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
Supposedly in Latin countries men call out compliments and women actually like it, and liking it does not put them at risk. But gentlemen don't do that here so if she responds positively she is encouraging someone who isn't so good.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Yeah, while I've never had something as extreme as kat's example happen, if I smile graciously or do anything but ignore them they follow me and proposition me or ask me out. Asking me out, obviously, isn't so bad, but it still makes me nervous, and the propositioning usually isn't pleasant. So I'll stick to ignoring, thanks.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
I feel old...
I never got into the catcall thing. What do they expect, the women to flag them down and say "hey, I didn't know what you thought of me until you yelled it out the window. Want to go out?"
I have four daughters, I'm scared for them.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I've yet to hear a man complain when a car full of girls whistle or make cat calls at them.
I wonder why there is sometimes a disconnect on the occurance for men and women.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I've yet to hear a man complain when a car full of girls whistle or make cat calls at them.
I wonder why there is sometimes a disconnect on the occurance for men and women.
I suspect that men are less likely to be worried about whether that carful of girls are going to start following them and pull over when they're in an empty street.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I think for a lot of reasons women are more likely to feel threatened by men than the reverse. I think the "creepy" factor ties into the "scary" factor.
Also, women are objectified a lot more often than men. So when a man gets catcalled, it's probably a rare and flattering thing. Just about any girl, regardless of beauty, has probably been catcalled many, many times. The very first time it happened to me I was mildly flattered. But over the years, it just gets obnoxious.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I've yet to hear a man complain when a car full of girls whistle or make cat calls at them.
I wonder why there is sometimes a disconnect on the occurance for men and women.
I suspect that men are less likely to be worried about whether that carful of girls are going to start following them and pull over when they're in an empty street.
Agreed.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I must be a real uggo. I've been catcalled by strangers, I think, two or three times in my life.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I doubt that. How often do you walk near high traffic areas?
Edit: I'm doubting the uggo part. I've clicked on links you posted to pictures of yourself. Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
Living in the city, I started having to take public trans in my early teens. There's nothing quite as creepy and frightening as being a fifteen year old girl waiting for the bus, not scantily clad, and having a car full of men pull up offering a ride, saying, "Hey, baby," etc. As if that wasn't bad enough, when I would politely decline, the car would circle the block, come back and ask again! And sometimes a third time. This happened on more than one occasion with one guy in a car and groups of guys in a car.
I'm with those who said that it is more frightening for women to be catcalled than men. Are men really afraid that six burly women are going to force them into the car and gang rape them?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
dkw: That makes sense to me. Its unfortunate I suppose that there is that stigma when it comes to men caterwauling at women. -------
I can't remember the last time I used caterwauling in a sentence, I like the word.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
The one time that a carful of ladies stopped to 'catcall' me, they were just playing mind games. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: I doubt that. How often do you walk near high traffic areas?
Edit: I'm doubting the uggo part. I've clicked on links you posted to pictures of yourself.
Often. Usually with my double stroller full of babies, though. Maybe that's it.
But really, I think I give off a "ignore me" vibe. Even when I didn't have the kids with me I never got cat-called, even walking alone downtown.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
A lady yelled "Oh yeah!" out of her window at me once. But I'm pretty sure it's cause I was picking a wedgie at the time.
Catcalls are incredibly rude, for all of the reasons stated already. But I had no idea that guys would follow or stop or intimidate like that! That is really scary, and if any of you ladies aren't carrying mace or a related product, you oughta start. Being rude and forward is one thing, but when it gets to threatening situations, make them cry.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I don't think it is unfortunate that there's a stigma attached to it, BlackBlade. Because even if there wasn't the attached level of threat, it's really, really rude.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I was once in a car with some guys who were catcalling a girl (stopped at a stoplight) next to us.
I actually apologized to her on their behalf after they finished catcalling.
I rock.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Catcalls are incredibly rude, for all of the reasons stated already. But I had no idea that guys would follow or stop or intimidate like that!
In my younger days, the rare occurrence was the one where I smiled at a man in public when we made eye contact and did not get followed up on and pressured in ways that felt intimidating. It is a shame, because I would have liked to exchange friendliness.
Actually, a good bit of my courtship of my husband was exchanging erotic stories. In many of these, we would toss the story back and forth with weeks of two strangers making eye contact at a cafe, being shy, coming back, hesitating, a brief look, a smile, another week, etc. If only 'twere true, but then that's why it's called fantasy. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: I don't think it is unfortunate that there's a stigma attached to it, BlackBlade. Because even if there wasn't the attached level of threat, it's really, really rude.
I just don't see it that way.
When a car full of girls have whistled or given me cat calls I just take it as fun. I know for some girls I am cute, and for others absolutely nothing. The girls are in a car and probably heading for something, its not as if they can stop and properly introduce themselves even if they wanted to, but they want me to know they think I'm kinda *sexsay*. For me it always brightened my day to know that members of the opposite sex found me attractive.
You could call it insecurity I suppose as if I was REALLY confident I would see nothing of value in being flirted with in that manner. I personally can't remember ever giving a girl cat calls, its more my style to at a red light to give a smile if the car next to me is a girl (or girls) checking me out. I might bounce my eyebrows if she is really cute.
But obviously not anymore, my woman gets all the fawning I feel inclined to express.
edit: My wife gets whistled at relatively frequently, she just smiles and flashes her wedding ring. She usually tells me about it when she gets home with a sense of pride.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
BB, does catcalling occur in Hong Kong and Taiwan? Just curious.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It does in Thailand, and it's just as creepy there as it is here.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Yeah, I don't know what yelling to a girl that she's hot is supposed to accomplish. Is she supposed to turn around, thank you, and start talking to you?
I've never called out to a girl, though if I see someone attractive I won't hide my turning my head to look at her. I don't think that that's threatening as long as you don't stare at her for too long. Also, on the off chance that it will work, I'll walk up to a girl and compliment her, for instance if I'm at the gym and impressed by her workout, but I don't say anything lewd and usually nothing comes of it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: BB, does catcalling occur in Hong Kong and Taiwan? Just curious.
Hrm......
It does, but its more the exception then the norm. Chinese people are bit more guarded in how they go about courtship. And PDA is generally frowned upon, but this trend is rapidly changing. Hand holding, cuddling and even kissing in public are becoming more of a mainstay in courtship. I think that has to do with globalization and exposure to foreign media/people.
Girls in China would sooner fall over dead then cat call however, they are much more discreet. It's more their style to stare and then when you catch them doing it huddle in a group and giggle. But as a missionary I did have several girls all ask me to be their boyfriend after meeting them once or maybe twice. I even had one girl answer the door in her underwear and unabashedly ask if I wanted to, "come in" and her meaning could not have been more clear.
Sorry that reply was a bit longer then I intended it to be.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Yeah, I don't know what yelling to a girl that she's hot is supposed to accomplish. Is she supposed to turn around, thank you, and start talking to you?
That, I think, is why so many women find it objectifying.
I don't mind being flirted with nearly as much as I mind being hollered at.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
A car full of girls catcalling a boy does not carry the level of threat that a single man in a car slowing down next to girl on the sidewalk does. This is a fact of life.
I used to be very polite and friendly to everyone, and just shrug off the "Wooo, BABY!"s.
After having been grabbed in grocery store by a stranger (as a teenager WITH MY MOTHER), followed all through a mall by a man who didn't seem quite right, chased through a Wal-Mart parking lot by a guy with lighter fluid and a pack of matches (I only know this because the same man was arrested a few days later after he actually caught another woman-she was unharmed, btw), stalked by classmates and people caught outside my house peeping in at windows...
Let's just say that odd appreciative remark no longer gets a 'friendly' response. Mostly, ignoring it is the best bet, an eye roll or chuckled "Yeah, right" works. Being cowed or acting afraid, upset or startled does not work any better than being friendly.
One time when I was entering a grocery store, two guys came out and gave me a real long uppy-downy look, and said the word "good" for that it had about three sing-song syllables. I answered in the same singing tones, without slowing my steps, "Fat."
That is the most offensive thing I have done to discourage unwanted attention, and I do not regret it. Even then, I was afraid. It didn't show, but what some guys don't seem to get is that the nature of male/female physical differences makes a 'harmless' catcall a very real threat.
It may not seem like a threat to you, because you know you won't do anything bad, but that doesn't change the dynamic. Cursing and stuff like that seems extreme, but you don't know what that woman may have had to deal within the past that makes that response seem reasonable or necessary to her. *shrug*
On my 48 hour film project weekend, after two days with little sleep and no shower, I ran out to buy ice for the coolers we had on location. I was a mess. Outside the convenience store, some jerk slowed down, honked and shouted, "Hey, BABY! Whatcha into? Gimme your phone number, baby" etc. Maybe I looked like a girl desperate enough to go for that, I don't know. I just ignored it and went on, but I was shaking by the time I got in my car and hit the door locks.
Women may be rude at times, but it's because-- in a very real and immediate way-- some people see them as nothing more than prey.
Posted by Luet13 (Member # 9274) on :
Well said.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
For reference, I do know several women who have been successfully picked up by catcallers while they were bar hopping. So while it might be crude, obnoxious, and frightening to many women, there are some women who are happy to answer, and indeed go home with the guys who are whistling and yelling.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
In the context of a bar, where people are basically there to find available, compatible flesh, the activity would be much less threatening, if at all. Maybe even expected or desired.
Walking alone to your car in a hospital parking lot after visiting a dying relative, not so much.
Sometimes, context is everything. Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I recieved more catcalls as a (male) missionary in Brazil than the whole rest of my life combined.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
True enough.
I just wanted to point out that some guys may have had success picking up women by driving down the street and yelling at them, which could explain why they think it's a good idea. It still seems dumb to me, but clearly it works in some situations.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I didn't make a distinction between catcalls and casual flirting, and I should have. If I walk past a guy who smiles and makes eye contact (with my EYES), I smile back. I can't help it, even as an old married lady, it's nice to be noticed.
Driving by a guy who grabs his crotch, not so nice.
It has been suggested that women are more sensitive to social subtleties, and I'm not sure that's true. But someone smiling or speaking to me politely is a world away from ogling or anything else that sets the threat-receptors tingling.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
And, yeah. What works for one woman doesn't work for another. True.
Posted by Qaz (Member # 10298) on :
I think what catcalls are meant to accomplish is for the man to express to his friends that he is manly and appreciates female hotness. Sort of like the Beatles groupies back when. Why did they run out to the stage? They knew a cop would catch them, and they knew that John Paul George and Ringo would never know their names. They were showing how passionate they were. It's a possible explanation anyway.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
When we were bored at summer camp, my friend and I used to walk around the edge of the campus and count the honks. It was fun.
I think it was because it was broad daylight, we were together, and we felt perfectly safe. The road was busy enough that no one ever slowed down.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
That IS fun. I once drove past a construction site near my home with men working very near the road. As I drove past, this one guy grabbed his crotch and gyrated. I think he was hollering, too, but at 45mph it was not easy to take it all in.
It made me laugh, and wasn't threatening at all. If I'd been walking, it would have been, but if I'd been walking he might have behaved differently, too. As it was, he had three or four seconds to make an impression. I'm sure it had very little to do with me and everything to do with impressing his friends.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivet:
But someone smiling or speaking to me politely is a world away from ogling or anything else that sets the threat-receptors tingling.
What's the difference between ogling and just looking at someone who's pretty? Is it how long you look, where you look, ...?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
quote:Originally posted by Olivet:
But someone smiling or speaking to me politely is a world away from ogling or anything else that sets the threat-receptors tingling.
What's the difference between ogling and just looking at someone who's pretty? Is it how long you look, where you look, ...?
It's....HOW you look, I guess. And also what you say, if anything.
I've had some random garbage man smile and say something along the lines of, "Damn, you don't see a woman like that every day. You're beautiful" and just smiled back and kept walking to my car. It was a nice ego boost, as I had to get all dressed up to go to a conference for work that day.
But there are plenty of instances in which I've been made uncomfortable having to walk by some men remodeling a house or hanging out by the sidewalk. On more than one occasion, I've crossed the street because I could already tell that they were leering before I got too close.
-pH
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Hm, Well, the guy who chased me through the Wal-Mart parking lot (as I left the store) had walked past me going the opposite direction when I entered the store. He moved to pass close enough to brush my coat sleeve, and he never looked above my neck. Also, he grunted at me or mumbled something.
It's a vibe thing, and I don't think it can be quantified. First, it is probably different for every person, slightly, and dependent upon past experience. Secondly, intangibles about the person doing the looking are a factor. Yes, how long and where has a bearing, but I would guess that different women have different tolerances.
If the person who brushed my arm had been neater and more well-kept, if he had made eye contact or smiled a little as he looked away, it would have felt more like the admiration of an equal being, and less like "Og want curvy meat!" (My respects to the Geico Caveman for the stereotype. )
But again, this guy chased me to my car when I left the store. I called the police, but he fled after I sped away.
Sometimes, you just know. *shrug*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Qaz: I think what catcalls are meant to accomplish is for the man to express to his friends that he is manly and appreciates female hotness. Sort of like the Beatles groupies back when. Why did they run out to the stage? They knew a cop would catch them, and they knew that John Paul George and Ringo would never know their names. They were showing how passionate they were. It's a possible explanation anyway.
Bingo.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That explains the work crew that stops work completely and stares the entire time my roommates and I walk past on our way home from work every day. Am I supposed to be grateful they aren't adding guestures?
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
But it doesn't explain the guy all by himself in the hospital parking lot, though I agree it's true as a general rule, especially with groups of men together.
Maybe the loners are just trying to impress themselves? Or maybe they're just weird.
The impersonal aspect of it may be what makes it disturbing. The person being catcalled is an abstract, not really a person. Hmm.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Is a lone man in a parking lot at night that chases you on the same level as a construction worker who openly looks at you? I don't think so. The former has gone way beyond catcalling or giving unwanted attention and has moved into harassment and abuse. I think that's a much more serious problem.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Yes, but there was a lone guy in a hospital parking lot, just sitting in his car alone, who hollered at me for no reason I could see.
I just meant that Lone Hospital Parking Lot Guy had no friends to impress. He didn't chase me. Wal-Mart Parking Lot Guy was the one who chased me and was later arrested after he caught someone else.
I can see why you would conflate the two. I have terrible luck with parking lots, evidently.
Still, Lone Hospital Parking Lot Guy was more threatening than Crotch Grabbing Construction Worker Guy, because I was speeding by the one at 45 mph, and there were other people around.
I probably wouldn't say anything to someone who just looked. I never have, but I suppose he were looking and touching himself or making lewd gestures that would be different. Cursing at someone for saying "Hi" is extreme in my experience.I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
Some people are more sensitive to threat than others, I guess, and it may vary with environment, too.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Lone guys who do it are probably so socially retarded that they have to do things like that to impress themselves with their virility. You know, bridging the gap between construction workers and stalkers.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
*snort* I bet you're right, Icky. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Olivet: The impersonal aspect of it may be what makes it disturbing. The person being catcalled is an abstract, not really a person. Hmm.
When it is men doing it for the sake of showing something to other men, this is it for me. It's that I am (actually, "was" -- I, too, am now a frizzle-haired harridan, hoo-yah! ) being used as a tool, as a means to someone else's ends alone.
And when it is a man doing it alone, the same is true. What creeps me out isn't the vibe of "interested" but the vibe of "don't care about your reaction to this, because I want to do/say it anyway," or -- much worse -- "because I like it that I can make you feel threatened/creeped-out." Also being used as a tool, not treated as a person whose own goals and ends are just as important as the looker's.
Can't quantify that, other than to say that if I get the impression that the guy would be horrified or feel terrible at frightening me, I don't get frightened/creeped-out.
Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
quote:Honestly speaking sometimes when I observe male behavior it makes complete sense to me that girls find other girls more attractive then men.
Amen to that. Jezz, have I met my share of sleezball men. Makes me ashamed to be a man. Some of us are still nice, girls! (But only when our chivalry isn't met with a "Flip off, I can open my own door, you chauvinist pig!" And yes, that actually has happened.)
Edit: Oops, forgot a very important comma!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm not a nice girl.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Og want curvy meat!"
Best line ever.
Now I'll never look at a beautiful woman without thinking of that line.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi:
quote:Honestly speaking sometimes when I observe male behavior it makes complete sense to me that girls find other girls more attractive then men.
Amen to that. Jezz, have I met my share of sleezball men. Makes me ashamed to be a man. Some of us are still nice, girls! (But only when our chivalry isn't met with a "Flip off, I can open my own door, you chauvinist pig!" And yes, that actually has happened.)
Edit: Oops, forgot a very important comma!
I've never understood that response. I like it when men hold doors for me. And if I go out on a date and he opens the car door, extra bonus points.
-pH
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think my Princess Di wave and smile works because I'm able to make it truly aloof and not encouraging in any way. It's friendly but in an unapproachable way. The catcallers are not asking or wanting to be treated as equals, obviously. It seems to inspire a sort of reverence. There's something religious going on, I think, which is why I make the analogy that they're admiring God's universe or some primal archetype of "the pretty girl" and not, of course, me at all. It's not personal. How could it be? They don't even know me.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi:
quote:Honestly speaking sometimes when I observe male behavior it makes complete sense to me that girls find other girls more attractive then men.
Amen to that. Jezz, have I met my share of sleezball men. Makes me ashamed to be a man. Some of us are still nice, girls! (But only when our chivalry isn't met with a "Flip off, I can open my own door, you chauvinist pig!" And yes, that actually has happened.)
Edit: Oops, forgot a very important comma!
Most girls I have held/opened doors for have told me later, "I thought chivalry was dead! I loved that you treated me like a lady."
Sure there is the occasional girl who just hates it for whatever reason, but in terms of averages I think its worth the risk. A kiss on the cheek for me is worth 10 girls calling me a chauvinist pig.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, baloney, Tatiana. It didn't fail for me because I wasn't sufficiently aloof while friendly. It went wrong because apparently some guy took it wrong, and being friendly at all was an encouragement.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I've never understood that response. I like it when men hold doors for me. And if I go out on a date and he opens the car door, extra bonus points.
Agreed.
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Oh, baloney, Tatiana. It didn't fail for me because I wasn't sufficiently aloof while friendly. It went wrong because apparently some guy took it wrong, and being friendly at all was an encouragement.
Also agreed.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Lol, katie you're so prickly! I wasn't referring to you at all or making any judgement. I was just telling what I think is going on with me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That's not how your post read to me.
Posted by Azile (Member # 2312) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH:
quote:Originally posted by Hitoshi: Amen to that. Jezz, have I met my share of sleezball men. Makes me ashamed to be a man. Some of us are still nice, girls! (But only when our chivalry isn't met with a "Flip off, I can open my own door, you chauvinist pig!" And yes, that actually has happened.)
I've never understood that response. I like it when men hold doors for me. And if I go out on a date and he opens the car door, extra bonus points.
-pH
I hold open doors and [well, sometimes] car doors for people all the time. If the stranger beside me trips, I will stop and help him gather his stuff. If someone is sniffling, I will offer him or her a tissue. I take pleasure in doing nice things. When a kind gesture is directed at me, it's all pick hearts and fuzzy rainbows from there on.
But I get uncomfortable when a guy insists on acting chivalrous with me. It's like, "Truth be told, I'm no more "lady" than you. Act the way you do because you want to, not because of some sense of social obligation. That doesn't feel right." When a guy holds open the door for me, I appreciate it because of the consideration. The action was very considerate of him. Or her. It's unrelated to chivalry.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
I thought about this again today when I was walking to my interview in downtown, and a guy passing on a bike said, "Hey there, pretty girl."
I just looked up and smiled. I wasn't creeped out, and I didn't feel objectified. It was a very, very different feeling from the one I felt when a guy pulled up his car to me in an empty lot and said, "Hey, baby, where you going?"
Now that (and the events that followed) was one of the more terrifying moments of my life.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I got sort of hit on today at my work. Kind of in a creepy way, though. I work at Cold Stone (ice cream store), and two Asian girls, I think about 22-23 years old, come in and start talking in, I think it was, Chinese to each other and looking at me. While they were waiting for their ice cream to be made, every time I made eye contact with them they'd smile and giggle very obviously. As they were leaving they asked one of the other employees what my name was. Then they call me over and asked how old I was. I told them 17 and then they giggled again and walked out.
It definitely doesn't bother me at all though, it makes my day more entertaining. And it's kind of an ego booster. Posted by Hitoshi (Member # 8218) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I've never understood that response. I like it when men hold doors for me. And if I go out on a date and he opens the car door, extra bonus points.
-pH
Well, I was brought up to always hold a door for a lady, so I'm glad women do appreciate it. I naturally try to do it for men as well, as it's just courteous to keep the door open instead of letting it swing back and smack someone in the nose (which, again and quite sadly, has happened to me.)
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I get catcalled a lot when I'm riding my bike. I'm more annoyed about it than usual, tonight, because it was really loud and sudden and startled me and I nearly wiped out. I would have been hit by one of the cars going by. Stupid jerks. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I used to get a lot of guys wanting to hit on me while I was running. . . like, expecting me to stop and talk to them. And then they'd get offended when I didn't. I never really understood that, because I obviously was out there for a purpose, and it wasn't to be chatted up. I thought for awhile about getting a shirt made that said "Don't talk to me" or something like that. Then at least they'd have something to be offended about.
Changing the time of day I exercised to early morning mostly took care of the problem, but since you're commuting by bike I know that's not helpful for you. Sorry about the annoyance.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Seriously, what IS it? I'm sweaty and dishevelled, and I have my work clothes on, which means old and probably stained somehow. I'm about as far from attractive as I get, short of first-thing-in-the-too-early-morning. I never get catcalled when I'm walking, or out somewhere. Just on my bike. Usually at night. I'd be flattered, MAYBE, if I knew it was because I'm attractive. As it is, I'm bewildered. Maybe I should get a shirt with "Whistling Not Appreciated" on the back.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
To some guys, "hot and sweaty" is sexy, I gather.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Or maybe just the fact that you obviously work out? I get more looks at the gym than anywhere else, I think. It's kind of weird.
-pH
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Sometimes when I run I like to turn my music up loud enough that the ambient noise gets muted so I can pretend that the girls I run past are talking about how cute I am.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think hot and sweaty is hot in (some) guys.
I can see how guys would think the same of girls.
But I would never bug someone who was running to hit on them.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Or maybe just the fact that you obviously work out? I get more looks at the gym than anywhere else, I think. It's kind of weird.
-pH
It might also have to do with the fact that people generally wear less clothing (or at least tighter fitting clothing) when working out.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Javert, not the case with me. It's usually loose capris or possibly normal decent-length shorts, my regular tanks, socks, and shoes. It's happened when I had khaki green capris, bright red sweater, and a lilac toque (under my helmet, kinda). I do have my ipod sometimes, but I like to hear cars coming so it's never loud enough to drown out other noises.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit:
Javert, not the case with me. It's usually loose capris or possibly normal decent-length shorts, my regular tanks, socks, and shoes. It's happened when I had khaki green capris, bright red sweater, and a lilac toque (under my helmet, kinda).
Maybe riding a bike tightens your leg muscles, thereby making your legs more shapely. At least that's what I've noticed (not in your case specifically, of course). Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: Seriously, what IS it? I'm sweaty and dishevelled, and I have my work clothes on, which means old and probably stained somehow. I'm about as far from attractive as I get, short of first-thing-in-the-too-early-morning. I never get catcalled when I'm walking, or out somewhere. Just on my bike. Usually at night. I'd be flattered, MAYBE, if I knew it was because I'm attractive. As it is, I'm bewildered. Maybe I should get a shirt with "Whistling Not Appreciated" on the back.
quote:To some guys, "hot and sweaty" is sexy, I gather.
DING DING DING!
--------
Hot and sweaty is indeed hot. Why should the end results of exercise, i.e a hot body, be attractive, while the act that actually produces the result itself not?
It's like saying a guy who prepares a meal for you is hot, especially if the food tastes good, but the image of the guy actually artifully preparing the food is not.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Hot and sweaty is indeed hot. Why should the end results of exercise, i.e a hot body, be attractive, while the act that actually produces the result itself not?
Because hot and sweaty is icky. On anyone.
A guy who cooks for me: hot.
A guy who is red and dishevelled from the heat of the kitchen and decorated with food stains and whatnot: well, not so much. (Not that I'd care, given that he cooked for me. But I wouldn't have the same visceral reaction.)
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
To quote Ratatouille, "See, clean sleeves and cuffs, the mark of a true chef."
Incidentally Rivka, when I come in August would there be any problems if I made chicken curry for you folks? I might need kosher chicken breasts but I am not sure if there is such a thing (or even need) for kosher curry powder.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
quote: Because hot and sweaty is icky. On anyone.
SECONDED!!!!
Oh how I hate sweat! ick Ick ICK!
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I don't know. I kinda like seeing sweat on certain people. From a distance.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Incidentally Rivka, when I come in August would there be any problems if I made chicken curry for you folks? I might need kosher chicken breasts but I am not sure if there is such a thing (or even need) for kosher curry powder.
Most of the large brands of spices are kosher. I even have some curry powder.
However, unless you are willing to do all the prep and cooking in my kitchen, making it kosher will be impractical.
But I appreciate the thought. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Incidentally Rivka, when I come in August would there be any problems if I made chicken curry for you folks? I might need kosher chicken breasts but I am not sure if there is such a thing (or even need) for kosher curry powder.
Most of the large brands of spices are kosher. I even have some curry powder.
However, unless you are willing to do all the prep and cooking in my kitchen, making it kosher will be impractical.
But I appreciate the thought.
Now when you say preping/cooking in your kitchen does that mean I would have to actually make the curry powder myself so that you could give it the OK or that the curry simply has to be prepared and cooked at your house?
If its the later thats eazy peezy, curry takes about 1 hour to prepare.
edit: Or were you saying making it kosher is more or less impractical/impossible and thus curry is not a safe option?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
She's saying that the spice is most likely kosher, but all the actual cooking/prep would need to take place at her house (and it probably doesn't matter if it's you who does the cooking, so long as it's her kitchen). I imagine it's because she already has all the different dishes/pans/cookware as required by Kashrut.
/shot in the dark //is 'Kashrut' capitalized?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
What, my curry powder isn't good enough?
If you wanted to make the curry powder from scratch, then yeah, that'd need to be done under my eagle eye. And we'd have to discuss what you needed to make the powder.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: She's saying that the spice is most likely kosher, but all the actual cooking/prep would need to take place at her house (and it probably doesn't matter if it's you who does the cooking, so long as it's her kitchen). I imagine it's because she already has all the different dishes/pans/cookware as required by Kashrut.
Very good shot in the dark! Correct on all points. (Although it does matter if a non-Jew does the cooking, there are simple ways around that if a Jew is present. I would just have to help a little.)
Kashrut (or as I spell it, kashrus) is occasionally capitalized. Not usually by me, though. There is no such thing as a capital letter in Hebrew.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*ahem* If someone is cooking curry at rivka's house, I'm inviting myself over.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Oh, also, BB, I don't know if you're used to using ghee, yogurt, or milk in your curry sauces, but can't do that to chicken. I'm sure you knew that. But it's worth thinking about making sure you have thought about ALL the ingredients you need. )
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: *ahem* If someone is cooking curry at rivka's house, I'm inviting myself over.
First of all, you'd be invited.
Second of all, does Country Captain count as "curry"? If so, how much notification will you need the next time I make it?
Third of all, excellent point on the dairy-ingredient issue.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Okay, let me amend my statement.
*ahem* If someone is cooking any kind of good food at rivka's house, I'm inviting myself over. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
KQ/Rivka: I was thinking about making Japanese curry this time around as my ability to cook good tasting Indian curry is severely limited. I'm sure Country Captain is great and all but I was thinking of bringing Vermont Curry.
All I'll need it rice, chicken breasts, carrots, potatoes, curry powder/paste. Multiply ingredients based on how many plan on eating.
You are more then welcome to help me Rivka
You can even suggest improvements, it's pretty hard to mess up a good curry. Currently I am trying to find the best type of cheese to go with curry, but for the sake of having a guaranteed good meal we will forgo that experiment for another time.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, that and you can't eat cheese with [eta: chicken or other meat] curry at rivka's house. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yup. BB, if you want a curry you can eat cheese with here, it'll have to be tofu- or vegetable-based. I wasn't suggesting that you make Country Captain. I already do, and I was taking kq literally.
Speaking of which, kq . . . are you intimating that most nights I don't make good food, or that I don't count as "someone"? Or are you planning to join us for supper tomorrow night?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Well, I'd be over there all the time if Jeff got home from work earlier. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Well, that and you can't eat cheese with [eta: chicken or other meat] curry at rivka's house.
There are actually plenty of meatless curries as well. Indians have it down to a science.
But Japanese curry sounds like it should be just fine, I almost wish it was past July and already August.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, I make meatless curries all the time. (Indian, specifically North Indian, that's what I know how to make, and I don't eat coconut, so no Thai curries for me. I've never had Japanese curry.) I was just sayin', can't eat it with chicken.
quote:I almost wish it was past July and already August.
Bite your tongue! I'm taking my girls and going to visit Boon next week. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(Actually, upon consideration, I'd say that curry is more of an art than a science.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Well, I'd be over there all the time if Jeff got home from work earlier.
[Family-Feud-applause] Good answer! Good answer!
BB, remind me about when in August is under discussion?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
We are looking currently at driving from Utah to California on August 7th (I hate to say it but there is a SLIGHT chance we might drive to Vegas instead, spend the night, then complete the drive on the 8th). Plans are really kinda by ear and the days activities will probably be planned out the morning of. The drive back home should be on the 12th of August.
KQ sounded like she had the most flexible schedule, but it sounded like either the 8th or 9th was the best day for the most people. I can pretty much do whatever, but I'd like to line up a late afternoon-evening to visit.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But I'm sure the attitude would vary in different locales, possibly worsening in heavily urban areas.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Though I won't pretend I'm sort of ugly wretch either.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
That is really scary, and if any of you ladies aren't carrying mace or a related product, you oughta start. Being rude and forward is one thing, but when it gets to threatening situations, make them cry.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Am I supposed to be grateful they aren't adding guestures?
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)