I had to buy school supplies for my kids this weekend. So far, it hasn't been as bad as previous years, but then again my high schooler won't really find out what her teachers want her to have until the first day of school.
Once again, though, there are many things about this process that bug me.
I don't think I should have to buy soap and paper towels. I think the school should provide it. I also get angry at the Ziploc bag issue. I mean, my kids came home maybe once or twice last year with something in a ziploc bag, how could the teachers have possibly needed one whole box from every kid?
I do not appreciate being given brand names to buy. It's my money, I'm the one having to spend it and I don't even buy brand names for my own use in my own kitchen, I'm certainly not going to spend twice as much to get the brand name with the fancy zippers the teacher asks for. If she likes that brand so much, she can return the ones I bought and buy the other one and pay the difference herself.
New on the list this year - headphones. For the computer lab. Surprisingly, I'm not upset. Why you ask? Because the headphones are to be labeled and only for that child's use. When my oldest was in kindergarten we had an enormous head lice infestation in the school and as soon as I'd get my daughter cleared and back to school she'd get reinfected. We finally discovered her computer lab partner was the same, and they shared headphones. I suggested they wipe down the headphones with antibacterial wipes or something, or get enough headphones that kids didn't have to share, but not surprisingly, they're just going to pass the cost along to parents instead. Still, I can live with it if it means no lost work or me missing school because one of my kids got head lice from headphones.
Finally, the copy paper. I will not provide the school with a ream of copy paper. Sorry. Paper is a basic office supply and they should pay for it themselves. If the teacher ever really runs out of paper and needs some she can send a note home explaining the situation and I'll help out if it's necessary. But see, I know that paper is not used in the classroom - it's all put together in huge cabinets in the copy room and everyone from the administration to the football coach makes use of it. I know because I asked one of the teachers where she stores it all, and she said "Oh I don't, the office sends someone by with a cart and they pick up all the paper and dump it in the copy room." I'm sorry, but the school can stock its own copy room without my help.
In short, I've become the person that will only buy the things I know my own child will personally need. Pencils, folders, crayons, notebooks. Everything else I expect the school to provide or the teacher to take out of my $35 donation that I am required to pay (how is it a donation if it's mandatory?) to each classroom. If however, the teacher sends home a note asking for a specific supply, I am always happy to help out if I know it's definitely going to something my child's teacher needs and not just going to the general supply fund for the whole school. Like, for instance, when one teacher asked for fabric to make something, I took in several yards of it and told her to pick her favorite. I'll happily donate to projects, or anything the teachers need I just resent these ridiculous demands every year.
The system takes advantage of people who do what they're supposed to do. A friend of mine who teaches 2nd grade said she has so many crayons left over from last year she has no need for anymore but the school sends out a list for all 2nd grade classrooms asking for four boxes of Crayola 24 count. When I asked her what she'd do with them all she said the school would take them and give them to a different classroom if necessary. Now see, that's ridiculous. I know 24 count Crayola is only 20 cents a box (I know because I just bought twelve boxes) but still I shouldn't be asked to buy them if the teacher doesn't need them. That's crazy.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
That's crazy. I can't believe the stuff they expect parents to contribute! Soap and paper towels? Where is the school budget going, and why can't they get a larger budget if they can't afford to have hand soap?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
If other classrooms and other children benefit from my spending a few extra dollars on supplies, carried to the school by my kidlings, I've got no problems with the practice.
And agreed, agreed, AGREED about the generic-vs-brand name supplies.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I think some background is required. So is this school requiring parents to buy supplies which are then delivered to the classrooms for general use (as opposed to the "normal" process of buying supplies just for the kid, recommended or not)?
Is this a public school?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Just so we know what page we're on, here's the list from one of my four children - I already typed it up so I could consolidate them so I can cut it paste it below:
quote:1 package of yellow or natural pencils 2 packages of wide-ruled loose leaf paper 2 boxes of 24 count crayons 1 pair of scissors 5 solid color folders w/ pockets and brads 2 wide rule spiral notebooks 1 steno pad 1 crayon pouch 1 bottle of glue 1 one-inch binder w/ plastic pocket cover on front 1 ream of copy paper 1 box of tissues 3 rolls of paper towels 1 bottle of GermX 1 box of tall kitchen size garbage bags 1 container of wet wipes 1 box sandwich-size zip-lock plastic bags 1 set of headphones for the computer lab
Scott, I can appreciate wanting to help out other kids, but I'd like to know I'm doing it. If the school sent home a list and said at the bottom, "Please bring an extra box of crayons so that we can have a supply on hand for disadvantaged children who are unable to buy their own" or something to that effect, I'd spend an extra 20 cents and gladly. But don't be dishonest by saying my kids need those four boxes, I know they don't. It's very annoying. Besides, what happens is that teachers wind up throwing out crayons from prior years to make room, or donating them to charities. That's what my friend does. I'll gladly give to charities, but I want to give voluntarily, not be forced into it by the school system attempting to deceive me by saying they are all for MY child. Because you'll note, we are prohibited from bringing supplies that have our child's name on them. I have before spent extra money to buy good vinyl folders that will last much longer than the paper ones only to have my kids come home from the first day of school with paper folders with their names written on them by the teacher.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
That is really ridiculous. We were never required to bring any of our own supplies in elementary school. At the beginning of the year we would be provided with two pencils and (in the younger grades) a box of crayons, a thing of glue, and a pair of scissors, which would never leave the classroom. I think we would get another pencil every month. If we needed more than that, we would bring it ourselves. In middle school we would be given a list, but it was always made by what the teachers actually needed us to have.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Wow. I don't have kids, and when I grew up (granted, on LI where taxes were high and schools well supplied), the school supplies we were asked to buy were the school supplies we used. They stayed at home or in my desk/locker at school until we needed them. Trash bags? Copy paper? Boggles the mind.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Whether or not it is outrageous depends a great deal on the local tax rate. If voters keep the taxes too low to supply the school, the people to get mad at is the populace for not funding education, not the school for attempting to make up the shortfall somewhere. Considering that the cost of education (and childcare for those young kids) is being spread out among everyone, I don't have a big problem with asking the parents to shell out to make up the shorfall. It's still a whole lot cheaper than paying for your kids' education yourself.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Scott, I can appreciate wanting to help out other kids, but I'd like to know I'm doing it. If the school sent home a list and said at the bottom, "Please bring an extra box of crayons so that we can have a supply on hand for disadvantaged children who are unable to buy their own" or something to that effect, I'd spend an extra 20 cents and gladly. But don't be dishonest by saying my kids need those four boxes, I know they don't.
Agreed, Belle.
Also, I'm very pleased to see you posting again.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I really don't think Belle is complaining about the cost.
Aspects of this strike me as stupid and wasteful and it seems to me that this is what she is having problems with.
Anything above a small scale system will almost inevitably waste things if there aren't consequences for doing so. Having things like some of the ones from this list thrown into a general pile sounds like a very good way to encourage not thinking at all about what they are doing with it.
Posted by Selran (Member # 9918) on :
$0.20 for a box of crayons? I would think that would be about one or two bucks.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Not that I don't think it is rediculous that they are asking for these, but I'm not sure if they are specifically asking for name-brand ziplock bags. I've always used the term as most use kleenex to refer to tissues.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Scott, I shouldn't be - I have finals coming up and stuff to do and need to go. I just couldn't pass this up, it's become a tradition to post this every year.
Primal Curve, you're seeing my typed abbreviated list. The actual list from the school specified Ziploc brand with sliding zipper and even the color of the box! I guess so we would be sure to get the right one. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I've got really mixed feelings about this whole issue.
On the one hand I know that many public schools simply don't have a budget sufficient to buy the supplies they need. I know personally of schools where the operating budget (which covers supplies) has literally not increased in 30 years. When you consider that 30 years ago postage stamps cost 10 cents, then you begin to get an idea what the schools are up against. Elementary schools in the areas where I live don't send out such list (it may be forbidden) I personally know elementary school teachers who buy most of classroom supplies out of their own pockets. I certainly can't blame the schools for trying to get parents to buy these supplies.
One the other hand, I strongly believe in public education and strongly believe that basic school supplies are an essential item that should be covered by taxes. Long school lists like the ones Belle describes are very hard on many families. My SIL with four children lived in Georgia and was routinely putting out $200/child to buy mandatory school supplies at the beginning of each school year. This was a severe stress on her family. This approach to supplying schools is just one more thing that separates the rich from the poor in our country. If you live in a well to do middle class neighborhood with a strong PTA, then your school will be well supplied. If you live in a poor inner city neighborhood, tough luck.
I'd gladly pay an additional $100/year in taxes to make sure that every school was properly supplied. But along with that I'd like to see rules that prohibited schools from requiring students to buy any supplies.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I think part of the reason they ask for brand names is for uniformity. Slightly different sizes, colors and qualities of things can lead to problems practically (paper cut-outs sent home don't fit in brand 'x' bags, no-name markers are often dry out of the box or become useless after a few uses) and behavior-wise (Johnny got Crayola Crayons, billy got Crapola Wax Sticks, wah).
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
The school my mom teaches in does ask for things like trashbags and paper towels, but not from every student. It asks for boys to bring certain things and girls others so that you have about half the extra (not pencils) stuff per kid. I don't think they care about brands of bags but glue, scissors (especially in younger grades, Fiskars round point 4 inch scissors), and one transparency marker do make a difference in the grade. These schools don't have a donation fee though, so they are going from their own budget.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: Primal Curve, you're seeing my typed abbreviated list. The actual list from the school specified Ziploc brand with sliding zipper and even the color of the box! I guess so we would be sure to get the right one.
Oh geez. It's too bad I can't post images here, or I'd totally use my giant eye-rolling smiley. <--- Clicky for Linky
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I never did this when they sent out the lists. In fact, I would send them to school with just pencils and paper and have them attend class for a week and make a note of things they would really NEED.
Otherwise, seems like each year there would be items we purchased that NEVER got used or requested (like asking for 6 3-ring binders, but the kid only ends up using one of those).
The only exception, I WOULD buy the standard box of Kleenex. Even though I know it went into the big Kleenex supply inventory and one box was put out at a time. I figured my kids would be users of them at some point.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
It seems to me that if this is a public school, there are really only two ways to pay for these supplies:
-Parents pay OR -Taxes pay (which just means both parents and nonparents split the cost)
Which is more fair?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:-Parents pay OR -Taxes pay (which just means both parents and nonparents split the cost)
Which is more fair?
Depends. Who benefits from an educated populace?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:It seems to me that if this is a public school, there are really only two ways to pay for these supplies:
-Parents pay OR -Taxes pay (which just means both parents and nonparents split the cost)
Which is more fair?
I think this may be missing an important option, which is that it is entirely possible that some of these supplies are unecessary, and thus no one should have to pay for them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:In short, I've become the person that will only buy the things I know my own child will personally need. Pencils, folders, crayons, notebooks. Everything else I expect the school to provide or the teacher to take out of my $35 donation that I am required to pay (how is it a donation if it's mandatory?) to each classroom. If however, the teacher sends home a note asking for a specific supply, I am always happy to help out if I know it's definitely going to something my child's teacher needs and not just going to the general supply fund for the whole school. Like, for instance, when one teacher asked for fabric to make something, I took in several yards of it and told her to pick her favorite. I'll happily donate to projects, or anything the teachers need I just resent these ridiculous demands every year.
The system takes advantage of people who do what they're supposed to do. A friend of mine who teaches 2nd grade said she has so many crayons left over from last year she has no need for anymore but the school sends out a list for all 2nd grade classrooms asking for four boxes of Crayola 24 count. When I asked her what she'd do with them all she said the school would take them and give them to a different classroom if necessary. Now see, that's ridiculous. I know 24 count Crayola is only 20 cents a box (I know because I just bought twelve boxes) but still I shouldn't be asked to buy them if the teacher doesn't need them. That's crazy.
Wow. I'm with you on this one, Belle. Your school is running a grade-A scam on parents who are susceptible enough to buy copy paper for them. They need to tighten up their budget, sounds like.
Like FG, I don't object to a box of Kleenex, something that will inevitibly get used per kid per year, and that the brand the school provides does not do an adequate job at. However, I would not be buying paper, GermX (which I don't want my kids using), trash bags, paper towels, or the extra box of crayons (1 should last a year for a kid), and anything they could make do with from last year, they would. I had notebooks (3 ring binders) in jr. high/HS that I used for 4 to 6 years before they fell apart. And everything that I sent with my kid would be for her personal use, and I would make that clear to her. I also would take issue with a mandatory "donation."
If the teacher tried to pull the crap I heard of in one classroom of giving kids points for bringing in the things on the list-- so the kids who couldn't/didn't essentially lost points for a grade-- I would be talking to the school board and seriously considering pulling my kids from school.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
There are a lot of people at fault in this situation, and the primary one is the voters. If the school does not have sufficient funds to run, then there is either a lack of oversight for the budget or there is a lack of funds.
That means you aren't paying enough in taxes.
I do NOT blame the teachers - don't teachers already spend a whole lot of their own money on their classrooms? And get paid jack anyway? Don't blame them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't see anyone blaming the teachers-- the school administrators, yes, but not the teachers.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:I do NOT blame the teachers - don't teachers already spend a whole lot of their own money on their classrooms? And get paid jack anyway? Don't blame them.
I don't think we can pigeon hole all teachers into Elizabeth Frys and assume they are all Adam Smiths with the money they get.
In simple terms: I don't think EVERY teacher spends minimal to moderate portions of their income on classroom expenses.
Suggesting that economic troubles in the classroom could not possibly be connected with the teachers is not wise IMO.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Even then - I hardly believe that the school administrators are refraining from stocking the copy room in order to hire a crepe cart for the annual meeting (although I suppose it's possible).
Instead of being outraged at being asked to contribute to the (complimentary) education for four children, it would be more productive to be outraged at how low taxes are and how they do not cover the needs at the school.
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
It's Back-to-School season at Staples again. I also hate the school's back-to-school list- they are either ridiculously precise (certain brands, colors, very very specific) or they'll be absurdly vague- last year I had someone come in and on their list was "Homework Organizer" is that a planner? a folder? a binder?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Instead of being outraged at being asked to contribute to the (complimentary) education for four children, it would be more productive to be outraged at how low taxes are and how they do not cover the needs at the school.
I agree that the amount of tax dollars devoted to school is ridiculous, but its hard to say that the schools would not treat money like the military if it was thrown at them in similar amounts.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Even then - I hardly believe that the school administrators are refraining from stocking the copy room in order to hire a crepe cart for the annual meeting (although I suppose it's possible).
Instead of being outraged at being asked to contribute to the (complimentary) education for four children, it would be more productive to be outraged at how low taxes are and how they do not cover the needs at the school.
Has anyone established that the school doesn't have enough money to run? This doesn't seem like a necessary conclusion based on the information given.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I think sometimes you do need to be specific- for example, a calculator these days requires training to use and so using one type makes sense. Tissue is tissue. For things like folders, I can't believe they just go to random supply and not for the kid who brought them in. When I was a kid, I would go and search through every folder to pick out the prettiest. And sometimes my mom would even let me buy it (usually we got the cheapest ones available- though even those I would carefully pick out colors). If I had ever gone to class and had to surrender my beautiful folder and get a random one in return, I would have cried.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Seeing the list now, it doesn't seem quite so outrageous for four children.
I do think that if you want to buy specific, higher quality items for your own kids you should be allowed to though. This isn't a gosh dang communist country yet!
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Has anyone established that the school doesn't have enough money to run? This doesn't seem like a necessary conclusion based on the information given.
In the case of the community my mom lives in, which is where that incident of kids losing points if they didn't bring stuff in happened, they are one of the best-funded public school districts in the country.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
MightyCow, she said the list was for one of her four children, not all of her four children.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Ah, I misread. OK, that's pretty over the top then.
Carry on Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Oh, by the way - one of the things the $35 supply fee is said to go for is ink cartridges. So, we are supplying not only copy paper, but ink too.
One reason the paper really, really annoys me is because I used to be a purchasing agent for a university and we had contracts for all office supplies and paper specifically, and got them much, much cheaper than the general public does because of the price breaks in the contract. I'm sure the county school system has a contract with one of the paper suppliers, and they could buy those reams for pennies on the dollar compared to the retail price I pay.
Alabama does have traditionally low property taxes, but my county (this is a county school system) has a bond issue that gives additional funding to the schools and since I've lived here it's come up for renewal twice and both times it's been approved. So the community is voluntarily choosing to pay extra money to the schools through our taxes already - I think the taxpayers are doing their part.
Here's my suggestion to make things different: Classroom teachers should not accept generic lists given to parents en masse. They should prepare their own, letting the parents know what they really need. If their supply cabinets are stuffed with last year's crayons, don't ask for more!
Let each child keep his own supplies, then when his crayons break and he needs more, the parent can supply them. No more throwing crayons into one big community pile - let each person be responsible for their own.
The folders I buy for my kids should be my kids folders. I understand requesting specific colors so it's easier for the teacher if all language folders are red, etc., but allow me to keep the ones I bought so if I want to get a better value for my money and buy longer lasting vinyl, then I should get to keep what I paid for.
No more brand name requests. Sure there might be different types of zip-loc bags, so what? The teacher can open one box at a time and everyone gets the same one that day but next time we open a box it might be a different type of bag. The world will not end if we don't all have Ziploc brand name gallon size bags with the purple zipper.
We don't need GermX and we don't need antibacterial hand wipes. Every elementary school classroom in this school has a sink in it, so we need to make sure the kids know how to wash their hands with plain old soap and water. And it will not kill them to dry their hands on institutional brown paper towels either, so quit asking parents to supply different paper towels. Kleenex, sure I don't see a problem with that. But you can use the garbage bags that are included in the schools' janitorial supply contract, you don't need me to buy them for you when you can get them much cheaper.
No more "supply donations" that cover ink cartridges, workbooks, and "other things as needed". If you need ink cartridges, get them through the school system. If my kids needs a workbook, tell me exactly how much it costs and I'll buy it. If there are "other things as needed" tell me what they are and I'll get the item for you when you need it. As for kids who can't afford the supplies, have the PTO maintain a supply room disadvantaged parents can avail themselves of at reduced prices or free if necessary. The PTO raises a lot of money during the year, this supply cabinet would be a good use to put some of that money to. And, if they request donations from parents to help offset the cost, I'll donate some additional items gladly.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
*applauds*
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shawshank: ...last year I had someone come in and on their list was "Homework Organizer" is that a planner? a folder? a binder?
A personal assistant.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:Originally posted by Shawshank: ...last year I had someone come in and on their list was "Homework Organizer" is that a planner? a folder? a binder?
A personal assistant.
A personal assistant equipped with a palm pilot. If you give your child anything less you might as well take them to the mines of Kessel right now.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
How about stop using the extraordinarily wasteful inkjet printers and get something else. Need color? Invest in a color laser (still expensive, but MUCH less so than inkjet) or get a good quality copier than can produce good color prints or get an account at Kinko's or a local graphics company where you just email requests over and they print them.
Inkjets are retarded. I'd demand my school's IT department be canned for allowing them in the door.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
I'm a fourth grade teacher and the list that Belle posted seems outrageous to me! Like others have said, reams of paper, paper towels, garbage bags, ink cartridges . . . all of these should definitely be provided by the school system. A mandatory donation? Never heard of such a thing!
All of the teachers in our fourth grade team (four classes) got together to figure out what our students needed. We put the following on our list: binder or trapper keeper (zip up binder), notebook paper, three folders with pockets and brads, pencils, box of crayons or colored pencils (no specific amount), composition book, dry-erase markers, kleenex.
Optional: $6 for a t-shirt (for field trips, field day, etc), $25 for field trips (for some people it is easier to pay all at once at the beginning of the year), germ-x, baggies (gallon or quart), glue, scissors.
In Georgia we get a $100 gift card from the state for school supplies. I spent mine on folders, composition books, scissors, crayons, pencils, paper, glue, and lots of dry-erase markers (we use these a LOT).
Last year I had a class of 28 at the beginning of the year. By the end of the year I only had 18 of the same kids that I started with, though I ended with 26 kids. So the supplies I bought last year with the $100 (and lots of my own money too) helped to outfit these kids who came to the class later (many fresh from Mexico). Of course, kids who move get their field trip money back that hasn't been used. The other optional stuff is used by the whole class.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Our school system instead of doing the gift card now has "teachers warehouse" which gets donations from Office Depot, Target and induviduals. There are lots of new and gently used folders, pencils, other supplies and then books, bulitin board materials, science kits, lots of that donated by retiring teachers. Each teacher in the school system gets two grocery baskets full a semester, of their choice, usually something like one folder or ruler per student in their class. Bulky items like chairs, globes, or poster board don't count towards your baskets, sometimes neither do three ring binders.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Personally, I'd like to see the money to supply these needs come from the union dues the teachers have to pay. Somehow I think the union would be working harder then to get the teachers the supplies they needed to do their jobs rather than lobbying for less actual education based priorities. Or have them come out of the school administrator's payroll. If they can't supply basic school needs, they should feel it.
Having said that, I'd also like to see children understand that the supplies they use are not limitless. I teach gradeschool aged kids' Sunday School and it never ceases to surprise me how wontonly wasteful these children are. They recently ruined a set of dry erase markers by mashing all the ends in. This weekend, I had to take the staplers away from one child who was happily destroying the staple supply. I get the distinct sense they think that everything they get to use is limitless. I know part of it is their age, but part of it is just the excess with which they live. Of course it's limitless...they've never seen scarcity.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I find the pooling of folders obnoxious. The only times I've ever had teachers insist on everyone in the class having identical supplies, they asked for money ($5-10) instead of giving a supply list. While I was less than thrilled (I shop the sales and keep a stock of most supplies on hand), I was ok with it. I would NOT have been ok with my kid getting a different folder than the one I'd bought. I also tend to get the (more expensive but more durable) vinyl folders.
As for the copy paper and trash bags . . . sheesh! And I object to the endorsement for a waterless sanitizer, when washing with water and soap is considerably more effective. (At least they're not requesting something with triclosan, I guess.)
quote:Originally posted by Selran: $0.20 for a box of crayons? I would think that would be about one or two bucks.
She's talking about a little box like this. When they're on back-to-school sale, they often go for $.20 - .50 apiece. The boxes that cost a few bucks usually have over a 100 crayons. Or aren't on sale for back to school.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I think this depends a lot on the school system involved. Kids in my Father's system (he teaches) get supply lists that are made up mostly by the teacher, with a few standard items for each grade level. These items would be things like the handwriting tablets (sold at the school store) or tissues etc. He works in the Washington D.C. area. I live in the upstate of South Carolina, and you can pick up a copy of any of the public school supply lists for your child's school and grade level at every Wal Mart, Target, CVS etc. They are published by the school system and available everywhere. I don't know what the average income etc. in Belle's area is, but I suspect that the difference between my Dad's school system and the local one is that his is much wealthier (in some areas) and also that there is a greater diversity of finances in his area. (His county is huge and covers all various levels of income.) Here, even though there is still some difference, it isn't nearly as varied and the school system's budget is much less.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I don't know what the average income etc. in Belle's area is, but I suspect that the difference between my Dad's school system and the local one is that his is much wealthier (in some areas) and also that there is a greater diversity of finances in his area. (His county is huge and covers all various levels of income.)
I have no idea what the average income is but there is a lot of variation. In my subdivision alone a surgeon lives next door to a guy who frames houses for a living. Our county is semi-rural, with only one big city and that city has its own city school system. The rest of us are in the county school system and we have very, very rich people who moved out here because they liked the country atmosphere, living close to very, very poor people. There are parts of our county where the homes don't have running water still. The literacy rate for adults in our county is depressingly low but the influx of new people moving into the area has driven up property values and brought a lot of new business and retail. Still there are a lot of extremes. In the school line you can be behind a Mercedes one day and an old beat up pick-up truck hauling a calf the next.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Just thought I'd mention, there are no sinks in any of the rooms at my school except for the kindergarten rooms, and trying to funnel 120 kids through two bathrooms (one girls, one boys) is pretty difficult. We actually don't ask for germ-x, but for any hand sanitizer. Any child who's parents don't want their kids can use the sink in the bathroom. Lots easier for ten kids to use the sink!
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I would think having their own supply would make a kid more responsible. When you break your crayons, you have to convince mom to buy more, not just get them automatically. I also agree with Belle that since the district would be ordering a large amount, they could negotiate cheaper prices. I think I would be ok with paying a supply fee (not donation, cause call it was it is) provided I was given a report on how it was used the prior year. Basically, I would want to know how much they collected and what exactly they spent it on. I think just forcing this listing would make for more responsible use of funding.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
What I don't understand is why a lot of this comes down to an issue between parents and teachers. I did read where someone said that this is an Administration issue and that is correct. School district administrators decide how much to put in each line item in their budget. Schools do not have enough paper because the Administration does not put much money in that line item on purpose. I see it all the time as I work in the Administration building. It's sad to see that the people at the top are not doing what is in the best interest of the teachers and ultimately the students.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Here is my kids' list for this year. It's substantially shorter than in previous years, due to parent complaints:
quote:Please note that this is a general supply list and individual teachers may require additional supplies.
3rd Grade:
-5 packs of sharpened yellow pencils with erasers -EXPO dry erase markers - thick -scissors -colored pencils (12 count) -crayons (24 count) -washable markers (8 count) -3 spiral notebooks (1 subject, wide ruled) -1 pkg. of 3x5 index cards -1 student pencil bag (no boxes) -10 duo tang (3 prong) pocket folders (basic rainbow colors) -3 large pink erasers -3 reams of white copy paper (500 pack) -3 packs of wide-ruled lined paper -1 ream of colored copy paper
Other helpful items: -3 boxes of tissues and 1 bottle of pump Hand Sanitizer -1 box Ziploc bags (large and small) -1 box of band-aids
Helpful for technology class (Please label) 1- 64MB Flash Drive (USB 1.0-2.0 compatible)
Please do not label supplies with the student’s name unless noted.
Of course, multiply that by two.
They never used the damn USB drives I bought last year. And they won't come close to using 64 MB in class. The "other helpful items" and "helpful for technology" lists used to be on the list, not merely "helpful."
-o-
I object (mildly) to the use of the word "require" in the first sentence. They don't have the right to require anything. These are requests. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Wow, that list is overkill. There's no way one kid would use that many pencils in a year; I generally went through less than one pack of pencils in a year my entire school career. And they want you to buy not only white but also colored copy paper? I wouldn't do it.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
The worst was when Mango got switched to another school, and they gave me their supply list, completely ignoring the fact that I had already provided another classroom with supplies. In the same vein, last year their special ed teacher gave us a supply list . . . Cor told her to go get those supplies from the regular ed teacher. Our kids shouldn't need to provide more supplies. If they're being pulled out of the regular classroom, their supplies should follow them.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
How very obnoxious! I'm really surprised that basic classroom supplies (paper, dry erase markers, bandaids, paper towels, trash bags, ziploc bags, glue, tissues, etc) are supposed to now be provided by parents. Those things are part of the basic operation of the classroom and should be part of the budget for running the school.
I completely understand each student needing to have pencils, erasers, notebooks, writing paper, crayons, etc. but I think those kinds of things should remain with the children, not be put into some sort of massive classroom stock. Each child should learn from a young age to be responsible for their own supplies. I guess things just seem really different than when I was in school.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
I've never heard of student materials being "confiscated" for whole-class use until I saw another teacher doing that at a school I taught at five years ago. I couldn't believe it! When my mom spent the hard earned money on supplies for me when I was a kid, those supplies were mine! Not the class's. The first day of school I make sure the kids write their names on all of their supplies, including using a permanent marker to write their names on their dry-erase markers, pencils, crayon boxes, etc., so that when they're dropped on the floor other kids can't claim them. Money is too hard to come by.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:When my mom spent the hard earned money on supplies for me when I was a kid, those supplies were mine! Not the class's. The first day of school I make sure the kids write their names on all of their supplies, including using a permanent marker to write their names on their dry-erase markers, pencils, crayon boxes, etc., so that when they're dropped on the floor other kids can't claim them. Money is too hard to come by.
Amen. I remember spending considerable time picking out binders and folders I liked, I would not have been thrilled if they'd been taken away.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
What surprises me is things like each kid having his or her own 24 crayons and 8 markers every year- those items especially. When I was at school, we'd have, say, a pile of crayons in a bucket for the whole class and because of the fact that old crayons didn't go up the school with the children, you'd have crayons around until they shrank and disappeared- which would take years. It would be the same for markers. There was a communal bucket out of which children fished when markers were needed.
This saves money because instead of having 480 crayons in a 20-child class (!), you could start with, say, 100 and then slowly build up over the years. The first year you'd need to buy four packs. The next year you'd only need one or two. Five kids can easily share 20 crayons. If they need the colour someone else has, they wait. (And that way they learn sharing, patience and the understanding that they can't always have all of everything for themselves, but sometimes have to make do with what's available.)
As for soap, surely it is much cheaper for the school to buy soap en masse in some kind of giant container and then simply refill the soap dispensers from there, than have the 600 students in the school buy 600 little bottles. The same goes for paper towels and I suppose for office paper, crayons, markers, and other things that are used communally.
This means that children would need to buy pencils, pens, glue sticks, erasers, notebooks, binders- things they were personally going to use over the course of the year.
This seems like common sense to me and I believe that is how it works in the schools I have attended.
Posted by DSH (Member # 741) on :
I think I've seen the worst (well, my wife saw it actually): Earlier this summer, my wife stopped at a garage sale my daughter's 2nd grade teacher was having. This teacher was selling all the leftover supplies her students (including my daughter) had brought in at the beginning of the year but not used! ... ...
I'm no lawyer, but isn't selling stolen goods a felony (or at least a misdemeanor) in most states?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Is there anyone not outraged by this? I mean is the fact that school budgets aren't going up with the rest of the economy because it's not being marketed right or because everyone's outraged until they have to say so on their taxes?
I recognize schools may be taking these kind of shortcuts even if they're, by today's standards, adequatley funded, but does anyone really think they'd bother trying to nickle and dime the parents out of Kleenex if they actually had all the money they needed to properly educate America's future?
Hobbes Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Finished up all the shopping and met with all the teachers. My 4th grader's teacher said they are not recommending backpacks this year. She said she doesn't plan to assign any homework other than studying for tests and reading each night, so they will have a zippered binder to keep work in instead of a backpack.
When we got there, she actually provided labels so we could label our folders and binders - we were not asked to pool them in a community supply. Worked for me, since I had already put my child's name on her folders anyway. Surprisingly I was not asked to supply colored pencils or markers - I normally am. I asked her if they would need them and she said all art supplies are now provided by the art department, paid for through the fund raising art shows they hold throughout the year. That's cool.
I did not bring copy paper to any classroom, did not provide GermX and bought half the number of pencils requested. I told every teacher if they ran low on pencils to let me know and I'd send some.
quote:does anyone really think they'd bother trying to nickle and dime the parents out of Kleenex if they actually had all the money they needed to properly educate America's future?
Does anyone think that now that the schools have proven they CAN get parents to pay for this stuff, they would start buying it out of their own budgets even if the budgets were increased? They'd just tell the teachers to do without, and it would fall back on the teachers to have to supply their rooms with all this stuff.
And don't think I don't realize I will have to spend some of my own money to stock my own classroom when I finally graduate and find a job. I know I will. Of course, since I will teach secondary, I probably won't have to worry much about hand sanitizer or crayons.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Belle, my mom asked a question. Do you have to pay a fee for school textbooks above the $35 listed here?
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
When my husband taught they did not provide for kleenex and markers and batteries for the calculators. So, my husband decided that it was an extra credit opportunity. He got so many boxes of kleenex, he was able to share with the other teachers.
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Last year our county switched to having an outside provider take care of our custodial needs in the schools. The entire month of May we went without paper towels in the bathrooms (both adult and childrens) because "the kids use too much and they've emptied the budget for paper towels." Teachers went out and bought paper towels. I couldn't believe it. We supervise the kids. They use the restroom and wash their hands as is appropriate. It's not like they were using the paper towels to play with or stop up the toilets (thankfully that never happened!!!). They were using them the way they should be used. But our complaints made no difference. <arghhh>
BTW, no textbook fees for our schools.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholar: When my husband taught they did not provide for kleenex and markers and batteries for the calculators. So, my husband decided that it was an extra credit opportunity. He got so many boxes of kleenex, he was able to share with the other teachers.
I could get in so much trouble if I did that . . .
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Because of the sharing or the extra credit?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
In Soviet Norway... I can't think of any funny jokes, but each child is expected to supply himself and no other. What is this, communism?
Posted by NotMe (Member # 10470) on :
I can definitely sympathize with all the parents in this thread. I had my share of absurd requests (crayons in middle school!?), but I'm beyond that now.
A bit of advice: never trust a math teacher that demands a specific brand or model of calculator. Your kid will be doomed to not learn arithmetic. Similarly, question any middle or high school teacher that requests crayons, markers, or colored pencils.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Oh, Duh. Obviously, "In Soviet Norway, school supplies YOU!!"
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Hmm. Actually, you could also have "In Soviet Norway, supplies school YOU!!".
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Because of the sharing or the extra credit?
Giving extra credit to kids for spending money is an enormous no-no.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Ah, yeah, that makes sense.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
And yet I've heard of this many times.
Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
My mother is a kindergarten teacher and is dreading the first day of school when all the kids bring everything that was on their very long (school written, not teacher written) supply list. She has nowhere to store 50 boxes of Kleenex. And we still have more than plenty of glue and crayons from last year.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:And yet I've heard of this many times.
Not allowed in our school either - completely forbidden to ask students to spend money for school credit. As Icarus says, big no-no.
quote:My mother is a kindergarten teacher and is dreading the first day of school when all the kids bring everything that was on their very long (school written, not teacher written) supply list. She has nowhere to store 50 boxes of Kleenex. And we still have more than plenty of glue and crayons from last year.
Pefect example of what I'm ranting against.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
quote: Similarly, question any middle or high school teacher that requests crayons, markers, or colored pencils.
Colored pencils were on my supply list when I took Meteorolgy in college. We'd get a handout of a US map with temperatures written on it. Then we'd draw in the temperature bands and color the areas just like real weather maps. It was fun.
Colored pencils or crayons for science class? Totally possible. Math and english? Sounds like one of those project loving eachers. My mom commented that one of the gals she works with makes the classroom look like she's scrapbooking with the kids' papers.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I'm confused about something....possibly because I'm 30 years old, haven't had a school supply list since I was in elementary school almost 19 years ago, and my only son won't be in kindergarten for 4 more years. But here goes...
What's up with the communal supplies? How is it that teachers are coming away with extra crayons, pencils, and etc.? When my mom bought me school supplies, they were mine. Well, except for the kleenex. My box of crayons, my colored pencils, my notebooks and all of that went in MY desk and if I didn't use them by the last day of school, came home with ME.
Did I go to a good school or has the world changed in the last couple of decades?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It's definitely changed Christine, because even when my oldest (now a 9th grader) was in kindergarten she didn't have the communal supplies issue.
The first I saw it was when my now 4th grader was in 1st grade.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I first saw it in 2001 when I switched to teaching in a public school for the first time. At the school I was teaching at then, the only real communal supplies I can remember were Kleenex boxes and printer paper. I had no say in that list because I was the new guy. The next year, as I recall, we did have a say; in this way we avoided the situation of asking for things we didn't need. We also had, during the course of the year, a newsletter we sent out that included teacher's wish lists. In this way I got a lot of math-related games to keep around the room.
As I recall, the kids kept their own stuff, with the exceptions I noted of paper and tissue.
Before the second year actually started, I was moved from middle school to the high school at the same school (at the time). Communal lists have never been a part of life at the high school. If I want something the school doesn't supply, I go out and buy it myself. I keep my Kleenexes in my desk, because I know kids will go through them in a heartbeat if I leave them out in plain sight; they do tend to waste whatever they didn't provide. On the other hands, kids are quite resourceful when you don't provide them with stuff. Most kids aren't aware I have any Kleenex, and either have their own in their backpacks or go to the bathroom when they need tissue. On the rare occasion when someone thinks to ask me if I have any tissues, I reach into my desk and give him or her one.
I do ask for donations of AAA batteries every year as the calculators start to run down. I let the kids know at the outset that I made sure the calculators were all running at the beginning of the year, including supplying my own batteries when necessary. During the year, I buy no more batteries for them. I figure I'm not the one using them, and I'm under no obligation to provide them with either calculators or batteries. (The kids are encouraged to have their own. I keep ten or so because it's possible that's not a reasonable request for some kids.) Since it's not my responsibility to provide calculators, if I have more kids wanting to borrow mine than I have calculators, that's too bad for whoever is at the back of the line. When a calculator runs out of batteries, I announce to my classes that one is out of commission and I now have nine (or whatever); that usually scares up a donation or two of batteries within a day.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
Some schools, even for math, require projects whether the teacher wants to do them or not. My husband got a bad review once because all he did was lecture. One of his students transferred to his class because she thought straightforward lectures made more sense than "discovery." My husband looked at her notes and they were brightly colored with shapes taped to them and folded in weird ways.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
But some teachers jump through hoops more enthusiastically than others. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I should point out that in algebra class, 4 or so colored pencils are a reasonable request for graphing and such. Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
quote:Giving extra credit to kids for spending money is an enormous no-no.
Not entirely on the subject, but in my college Sociology class, fall quarter, the teacher promised an A to any hunter that would bring him a deer. As I recall, there were two takers.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
O_O
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Did he just really like venison?
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
That was my assumption.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
There was an awful teacher in my high school. He was a math teacher; he always had the smallest classes because parents were always transferring their kids out of his. He gave extra credit to kids who brought him food-- but only if he liked it, otherwise he took points off your grade (for instance, when a Korean student brought in dumplings made by his mother.) He gave extra credit to girls who wore short skirts and crossed their legs. He graded based on how much he liked you instead of how you did on tests; my friend who he didn't like got two points off and an F while the girl who sat in the front row in the short skirt and kissed up got 15 points off and an "A." He didn't actually teach much; in many of his classes he just put problems up on the overhead and went outside to talk on the phone to his wife (who was the Home Ec. teacher. She used to have me take over my Foods class while she talked to him, also my friend in his Foods classes, although she wasn't quite as bad as her husband. He married her two months after she graduated from high school, she had been one of his students.) He had numerous complaints every year from parents, including sexual harassment complaints, and the district said, "We can't do anything, he's got tenure" and the students would just transfer to another class. Finally he went so far that two parents who were lawyers filed suit on behalf of their daughter who was sexually harassed, and the district fired him.
He was really icky.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Wow! That's really extreme. Tenure or not, I can't believe the district didn't get rid of him sooner. There are ways to dismiss even teachers with tenure if they're bad enough. It usually involves destroying them but can't say that one didn't deserve it.
Stories like that are why I disagree with the idea that teachers are underpaid. GOOD teachers are underpaid. Bad teachers are overpaid -- and we have plenty of them.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm not aware that tenure in that form exists anywhere. I have "tenure" and I could certainly be fired. I could also be caused to want to quit.
There would be more good teachers if there were pay enough to make hiring competitive. The biggest obstacle to getting rid of bad teachers is that we have nobody to replace them with.
quote:He was really icky.
I beg your pardon. >:O
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
It is very difficult to get rid of tenured professors at the university level.
At my high school (and it was a very good public high school), I recall that after a teacher had been there for a certain amount of time, there had to be cause to fire him. Certainly the above example would have been cause. My guess, though, is that the "evidence" was anecdotal and undocumented until the lawsuit.
Posted by Liz B (Member # 8238) on :
I'm just going to point out that different people learn in different ways. Visuals may not help some students, but they do make learning (and demonstrating learning) easier for others.
But back to the topic at hand--I usually spend $100-200 every school year on my classroom for supplies for the students. (This doesn't count the money I spend on books for my classroom library.) As of last year, I was no longer allowed to ask students to supply tissues. I don't mind buying pencils and markers for kids--that is, actual SCHOOL supplies--but I refuse to buy the approximately 20-30 boxes a year it takes to keep 60 kids in tissues. My kids use the brown paper towels or sniffle. For next year, however, the principal is using some of our fundraising $$ to buy them for the whole school. Hope she gets enough!
Our PTA puts together a school supply pack that costs around $35. The team of teachers is told to use what's in that pack, and if students need something not included, we (the 4 core subject teachers) can ask for additional supplies not to exceed $5 for the whole team. I'm mostly OK with that--the supplies in the pack tend to be lower quality, and the binders break before the end of the year, but it's a pretty good solution to a difficult problem. (Students aren't required to buy the pack, by the way--it's provided as a convenience.)
Just a comment on the copy paper--I think it's not totally unreasonable to ask each student to supply a ream of paper, depending on the funding situation of the district. Students print and print and print. (Back in the olden days when they hand-wrote essays, they'd write 'em on their own notebook paper, right?) And I have CERTAINLY seen students print more than one copy of a multiple-page document, just because it didn't start printing right away. Anyway, I think it's something the school should provide, but there's some justification, at least, for it being a "school supply" for student consumption vs. an instructional material (such as paper for photocopies).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I'm not aware that tenure in that form exists anywhere. I have "tenure" and I could certainly be fired. I could also be caused to want to quit.
There would be more good teachers if there were pay enough to make hiring competitive. The biggest obstacle to getting rid of bad teachers is that we have nobody to replace them with.
quote:He was really icky.
I beg your pardon. >
Sorry, Ick!
And yeah, "Sorry, he has tenure" definitely translated to "we don't want to deal with this/your kid is making this up/we don't want that publicity."
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
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