Question: Typically speaking, are public school inventories a matter of public record?
Background: I just accepted a new band director job in a different district. My new school is in need of new instruments, and I am putting together a request to obtain new instruments (which, obviously, will cost a lot of money). In order to back up my request, I am seeking information from other schools and school districts. Specifically, I would like to know how many of each instrument they have (flutes, oboes, drums, etc) and if possible, their make, model and approximate value.
I emailed the music supervisor for the district in which I formerly worked in order to request this information and he informed me that this information is classified. However, I suspect that he is denying my the information for personal reasons.
Help would be appreciated from any with advice. Thanks!
Edit to add: I live/work in Oregon, for any specifics relating to revised statutes in my particular state.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
No idea. It would almost certainly depend on state and possibly local laws.
Most freedom of information laws don't require public officials to answer specific questions such as "how many X do you have." Rather, they require turning over specific documents on request.
Your best hope there are budget requests, which often contain existing inventories in the justification section for capital purchases.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Wow! Thanks for the quick response.
Let me ask the question another way, if I might:
Can you think of any justification for an inventory of musical instruments to be classified?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
To keep the drama kids from getting jealous?
I can't think of any justifications that are really acceptable.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: To keep the drama kids from getting jealous?
I can't think of any justifications that are really acceptable.
The trick with resolving drama kid (drama?) is to play school musicals. The orchestra kids provide the music and the drama kids get to do their acting schtick all at the same time!
We did two musicals at my high school while I was there, "Hello Dolly," and "How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying." I was bass clarinet.
Some of my best memories came from those musicals Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Other than that he really doesn't like it when his teachers leave for another district, I can't either....
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
If the budget records don't have it, you should be able to get purchase records of some sort under some freedom of information act. Just request all expense forms covering the purchase of musical instruments.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
If the terrorists knew how many musical instruments we had, they would be able to figure out how long they'd have to deny us the means to repair/replace them before our high school bands would no longer be able to play patriotic songs like "Stars and Stripes Forever" or "America the Beautiful", which would hurt our troops.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: If the budget records don't have it, you should be able to get purchase records of some sort under some freedom of information act. Just request all expense forms covering the purchase of musical instruments.
While that would indeed give me results for recent instrument purchases made by the district, I suspect that it would not be delineated by which schools received said instruments. Additionally, many of these schools have instruments that may have been purchased so long ago that records no longer exist (or are stored next to the Lost Ark in some warehouse somewhere), or perhaps were purchased by the schools themselves, bypassing the district office.
The thing is, this individual requests updated inventories from every band, orchestra, choir, drama, and elementary music instructor in his district (over 30 schools!) at the beginning of every year. The information I need to make my case to my new district is readily available, if only he would send it to me.
But then, maybe it really IS classified. Who knows? Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, and another option is state audit records, though I don't know how likely instrument counts will be in there. They do take a lot of inventory in a typical state audit, though.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: If the terrorists knew how many musical instruments we had, they would be able to figure out how long they'd have to deny us the means to repair/replace them before our high school bands would no longer be able to play patriotic songs like "Stars and Stripes Forever" or "America the Beautiful", which would hurt our troops.
Your knowledge of terrorist methodology disturbs me greatly MrSquicky. *Finds Mr S's house, goes next door and holds glass between ear and wall*
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: If the terrorists knew how many musical instruments we had, they would be able to figure out how long they'd have to deny us the means to repair/replace them before our high school bands would no longer be able to play patriotic songs like "Stars and Stripes Forever" or "America the Beautiful", which would hurt our troops.
Are you insinuating that I am in league with terrorists? How DARE you! Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The thing is, this individual requests updated inventories from every band, orchestra, choir, drama, and elementary music instructor in his district (over 30 schools!) at the beginning of every year. The information I need to make my case to my new district is readily available, if only he would send it to me.
Those records would likely be subject to FOIA requests, although this depends greatly on state and local rules. Still, if you know he has the report, that's what you should target specifically with your request.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The trick with resolving drama kid (drama?) is to play school musicals. The orchestra kids provide the music and the drama kids get to do their acting schtick all at the same time!
I hated doing musicals, mostly because I can't sing and therefore had one less play to be in each year.
Also, the orchestra got snooty with me because I was wearing old clothes when I operated the spotlight. They were all in suits or tuxes.
I had to show them the burn holes from the spotlight to get them to realize why I wasn't wearing my Sunday best.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:*Finds Mr S's house, goes next door and holds glass between ear and wall*
"....so then I says, 'Lady, that's not a pancake, it's a frizbee coated in syrup!' *laughter*
Ahhh...good times. So anyway, let's call this meeting of the I Hate America club to order. If I'm not mistaken, Operate 6571 is supposed to present on the second phase of plan 'Crappy Movies Made About Things From The 80s' tonight. Let's all give Ms. Streisand a hand...."
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:Are you insinuating that I am in league with terrorists? How DARE you!
Cry all the crocodile tears you want. Your actions have already provided enough justification for Alberto Gonzales to personally bug (and for some bizarre reason, shave) your pets, which he should have finished by now.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:The trick with resolving drama kid (drama?) is to play school musicals. The orchestra kids provide the music and the drama kids get to do their acting schtick all at the same time!
I hated doing musicals, mostly because I can't sing and therefore had one less play to be in each year.
Also, the orchestra got snooty with me because I was wearing old clothes when I operated the spotlight. They were all in suits or tuxes.
I had to show them the burn holes from the spotlight to get them to realize why I wasn't wearing my Sunday best.
Not every part sings in a musical (but all the important ones and most of the mid parts do). Sorry you had a snooty orchestra, instrumentalists at our musicals were an all volunteer force so pretty much only fun people were in the troup.
I don't know what the musical director would have done if none of the orchestra had agreed to help out, play off the CD?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:*Finds Mr S's house, goes next door and holds glass between ear and wall*
"....so then I says, 'Lady, that's not a pancake, it's a frizbee coated in syrup!' *laughter*
Ahhh...good times. So anyway, let's call this meeting of the I Hate America club to order. If I'm not mistaken, Operate 6571 is supposed to present on the second phase of plan 'Crappy Movies Made About Things From The 80s' tonight. Let's all give Ms. Streisand a hand...."
I'd rush the tape recording I made to the authorities if my ears were not bleeding profusely.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:The thing is, this individual requests updated inventories from every band, orchestra, choir, drama, and elementary music instructor in his district (over 30 schools!) at the beginning of every year. The information I need to make my case to my new district is readily available, if only he would send it to me.
Those records would likely be subject to FOIA requests, although this depends greatly on state and local rules. Still, if you know he has the report, that's what you should target specifically with your request.
My initial request was for information from these reports, rather than the reports themselves. I know (having put the information together for one of the schools) that the reports contain serial numbers on all of the equipment, and I could understand the desire to keep that information classified.
If I reiterate the request, to whom should I appeal if I am denied again? His immediate supervisor?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Look up your state's freedom of information law. There's typically a standard form (or you have to use the organization's form if they have one), and a particular person you're supposed to submit to.
Basically, you ask, and they have to give up. If they don't, there's a standardized petition (a form is included in the law) to the AG that should prompt action.
edit: and there's this useful clause
quote:192.505 Exempt and nonexempt public record to be separated. If any public record contains material which is not exempt under ORS 192.501 and 192.502, as well as material which is exempt from disclosure, the public body shall separate the exempt and nonexempt material and make the nonexempt material available for examination. [1987 c.764 §4 (enacted in lieu of 192.500)]
IOW, if there's stuff on those reports that are exempted (which is unlikely), they still have to give you the information on musical instrument numbers (in the form of the relevant parts of the report).
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
Thanks Fugu! I was looking up the FOI laws but couldn't find this. Much appreciated.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Why don't you just ASK the other band directors?
I mean, aren't most band directors at least in a Music Educators association together?
I'm sure each band director at each school knows what they have in inventory
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
There are over 30 schools in the district, he mentions above.
edit: also, their cooperating with him might get them in trouble with the guy he's having problems with already, particulary as the only way they're going to have handy an exact list of what they have is a copy of the very reports in question. There are a lot of instruments in a school's band room, and very few people can list long inventories like that off the top of their heads.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Asking after the boss has stated that it's classified puts those teachers in a really awkward position.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
At least for the High Schools, you might try talking to the music dept of a local college. There would be "band dudes" from the most of the local high schools, and they would have a general idea about school owned instruments.
EDIT: You might ask one of the Ed Instructors, there might be a "band dude" who needs a research project for a paper. They could do the leg work for you (finding the guys to ask) and you could shair your anaiysis with them to help with the paper.
[ August 02, 2007, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Artemisia Tridentata ]
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Asking after the boss has stated that it's classified puts those teachers in a really awkward position.
Precisely. Though most of my colleagues would probably be only too happy to thwart him.
Other than putting them in this awkward position, it would be a simple matter to get this info from the other directors. Once they get back from summer break...
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Asking after the boss has stated that it's classified puts those teachers in a really awkward position
I simply figured the other teachers wouldn't have any IDEA that the boss man said it is classified.
I know several band directors personally, and they are always talking about what they have, and what they NEED for their classrooms. Just general talk.
I'm wondering if the head guy said it was "classified" just because he didn't want to have to go look it up.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The issue isn't what the teachers think, its what the boss man would think about them if he found out.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Is there any reason that you need to specifically find out the inventory for that district? Personally, I'd suggest writing band directors in other districts and basically tell them what you've told us in the background statement.
You'll probably be able to get results that way, and since the administrators won't have said no, you won't be going behind anyone's back.
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