The other night I accidentally left our leftovers (chicken and rice) on the counter overnight. I sadly dumped it all in the trash can, as it had been out for 14 hours by the time I realized what I'd done, but I was curious enough to do a search on the internet to find out how long you could safely leave food out.
The official advice is 2 hours, which seems way too conservative to me. If I go to Thanksgiving dinner at my parents' house the food stays out longer than that while people continue to pick at it over the course or 3...4...5 hours. We've never gotten sick. I often leave leftovers on the counter after dinner to give them a chance to cool and put it away before bed. It stays out for up to 4 hours if I don't remember until last thing and it's fine.
Of course 14 hours is right out but I was curious, what do other people do? How long are you willing to leave food on the counter and still eat it?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
There's a time limit?
<- only partially joking.
Posted by Saephon (Member # 9623) on :
I think the general rule in this house is this:
If it's a well-prepared meal, do your best to ensure that it's refrigerated no more than a couple hours after it's been put out.
If you're gonna eat something that's already questionable, then by all means, take your time. I particularly find that while I can't eat an entire large pizza in one sitting, I can over the course of the next 6 hours Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I tend to let things cool for an hour or so, and then fridge them.
If it's chicken, I am very cautious of the time - no more than half an hour, tops, and usually much less.
Other meats I am less wary about, but I will still have them in the fridge within an hour.
If the leftovers are vegetables (and cooked with no dairy) then I am much more lax - a few hours doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
But also, I throw out milk on the use by date, regardless of the smell (well, I always think it smells bad. Other people don't agree). I'm a stickler for food safety issues.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
It varies a lot. I wouldn't say I eat chicken that's sat overnight often, but we sometimes leave a pot of chicken soup with a lid on the stovetop. I mean, if you think about putting a pot of hot soup in your fridge with all your other food, you're creating a much more hazardous situation.
Also:
"To Blave' which as we all know means to bluff."
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by imogen: But also, I throw out milk on the use by date, regardless of the smell (well, I always think it smells bad. Other people don't agree). I'm a stickler for food safety issues.
I don't know what it is in Oz, but in the US that is not a use-by date. It is a sell-by date, and milk is generally good for 4-7 days after that, if kept properly refrigerated.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by imogen: But also, I throw out milk on the use by date, regardless of the smell (well, I always think it smells bad. Other people don't agree). I'm a stickler for food safety issues.
I don't know what it is in Oz, but in the US that is not a use-by date. It is a sell-by date, and milk is generally good for 4-7 days after that, if kept properly refrigerated.
Not around here! I USED to be able to use milk after the sell by date (1 day tops...I have never gotten 4 days, let alone a week!) but around here the milk doesn't even last to the sell-by date. Most of the time it smells foul 3-4 days before we ever get there. It's really annoying. I think they're cheating on the dates somehow, but I don't have any power to do anything about it. We do better with the organic brands, but those are incredibly expensive so we only buy them for our son.
P.S. I can get the milk to last to 1 day before the sell by date if I keep my fridge so cold that the food starts getting icy. Sigh....I didn't want to get into it about milk but that's been a very frustrating topic around this house for a while now.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I would have eaten the 14-hour-leftovers. In fact, I've done that more than once.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Christine, the last time I started having trouble with milk not keeping, my fridge's compressor went blooey two weeks later. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your fridge, but it does sound like the internal airflow might not be optimal.
Do you keep it extremely full? What shelf do you store your milk on?
And have you tried getting your milk from a different supermarket (if that's an option)? IME, it makes quite a difference which store I get my milk from.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by imogen: But also, I throw out milk on the use by date, regardless of the smell (well, I always think it smells bad. Other people don't agree). I'm a stickler for food safety issues.
I don't know what it is in Oz, but in the US that is not a use-by date. It is a sell-by date, and milk is generally good for 4-7 days after that, if kept properly refrigerated.
Here it's a definite use by date, not sell by (just checked the carton ).
In my defense, I have had off milk curdle in my tea (*ick*) and I can smell it when it turns.
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I mean, if you think about putting a pot of hot soup in your fridge with all your other food, you're creating a much more hazardous situation.
Why? *curious* I put hot food in my fridge all the time. Am I doing something wrong?
As for milk smelling bad even before its use by date... this is why I have switched to organic milk. Sure, it costs more, but the smell is much better, and it also lasts longer than regular milk. I throw out much less milk these days.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*shudder* I have also had curdled milk -- in coffee (about a tiny sip), and can smell it when it turns. (My ex used to ask me to smell the milk to see if it was good.)
And we generally finish gallons of milk before their date, occasionally a day or so after. Large quantities of milk are consumed by both me and my kids on a pretty much daily basis.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Our family goes through milk so fast that it never occurs to me to check the sell-by date. If there's milk in our fridge, it's less than a week old. An open gallon - less than three days.
As far as stuff left out, we'll go as long as 4 hours or so before we start to view the food with suspicious eyes. The general rule of thumb at our house is to make sure the dinner leftovers are put in the fridge before we go to bed.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Christine, the last time I started having trouble with milk not keeping, my fridge's compressor went blooey two weeks later. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with your fridge, but it does sound like the internal airflow might not be optimal.
Do you keep it extremely full? What shelf do you store your milk on?
And have you tried getting your milk from a different supermarket (if that's an option)? IME, it makes quite a difference which store I get my milk from.
Well, the fridge is new -- we bought it when we bought the house. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but the milk is the only thing we've had problems with. We store it in the door in the milk slot built right in and the amount of food varies widely depending upon the time of the month. (We do a big shopping trip early in the month and supplement throughout.) I have had varying luck with different grocers and different brands of milk, although I have never in my life seen milk last more than a day or two after the sell by date. Organic milk is the best, but it's twice as expensive and it turns out to be cheaper to throw the milk away!
Recently, a new grocery store opened in the area and we usually get their store-brand milk. It's usually good until the day before the sell-by date and it's consistent, which is nice. We've tried other brands of milk that will variably expire a week early or 2 days late!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Putting hot food into the fridge can temporarily raise the average temperature inside. As the fridge's contents "suck" heat from the hot food, they'll rise in temperature, and then eventually be brought back down by the refrigeration. Increasing the temperature of the food that's already in there could conceivably allow bacteria to grow for that length of time.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Wow, I've never had a problem with milk going off before the use by date (which would have to be later than the sell by date, I'm guessing).
How long from purchase is the sell by date for you guys in the US? Here, for the use by date, it is at best 11/2 - 2 weeks.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I think once my son turns 2 the milk problem will go away. We can switch him from whole milk to what we drink then, and with the whole family on the same milk I think we'll go through it more quickly and not have to worry much about sour milk. Actually, he usually drinks his milk all by himself before the sell-by date! (I used to drink that much milk when I was a kid but many years of dieting later I've cut back.)
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I read somewhere that the door is the worst place for both milk and eggs.
Wow! I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I'm going to rearrange my fridge for our big shopping trip this weekend and see if I can get some better results from my milk.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
When I first read it (and it wasn't from that site, I'm sure) it was in regard to eggs and somebody complaining about why fridge manufacturers put those molded egg trays in doors when the safest place for eggs is in their carton and on a regular shelf. IIRC the person that began the conversation had this molded permanently in the door, not as a removable tray, which meant that the space was essentially wasted.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by imogen: How long from purchase is the sell by date for you guys in the US? Here, for the use by date, it is at best 11/2 - 2 weeks.
It varies from state to state (and sometimes from city to city).
Christine, as Goody already pointed out, the door is the worst place to store milk. Hopefully, finding another spot will help your milk's shelf-life.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I've found that brand is the biggest determinant in how long my milk lasts. Not because some brands last further past the expiration date than others, but because some just have extremely awesome expiration dates.
I can't remember the brand anymore, but there was a Safeway near my old apartment that had milk that lasted two months. I couldn't believe it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I usually lave my food in the sink--doing it on the counter is way too messy. As for how long? Depends on the food, I suppose. I rarely do it for more than 45 seconds or so, though.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
@ Noem
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
A lot of food guidelines are precautionary - ways to maximize the chances you won't get food poisoning. I am one of those who doesn't tend to push my luck.
OTOH, a friend of mine here at work left some cooked turkey hot dogs in the microwave overnight. He reheated them and ate them that same day. No food poisoning, but not recommended for amateurs. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That website was odd. A couple of examples:
quote: * Translucent containers allow light in that can cause milk to spoil more easily and more quickly * Translucent containers allow light in that can cause milk to spoil more easily and more quickly
quote:Make homemade ice cream with pasteurized eggs
I've never seen a pasteurized egg.
Personally, I suspect that most official recommendations of being overly cautious.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Lots of bakeries use pasteurized eggs. OTOH, I've eaten runny-yolk friend eggs all my life and never had a problem. Many food safety recommendations are indeed overly cautious. A healthy immune system can handle quite a bit of "unsafe" food without any serious problems. If not, most people would die of food poisoning in college
That website is a little over-cautious in some areas, but it brings up the good point that different foods have different safety levels. Some foods are safe at room temperature for long times, others are particularly susceptible to bacterial growth.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Putting hot food into the fridge can temporarily raise the average temperature inside. As the fridge's contents "suck" heat from the hot food, they'll rise in temperature, and then eventually be brought back down by the refrigeration. Increasing the temperature of the food that's already in there could conceivably allow bacteria to grow for that length of time.
Exactly. I do what Alton Brown recommends and cool soup fast, either by pouring into narrow containers (glass wide-mouth milk bottles) and nesting into a bag of ice (piled in sink or portable cooler), or by putting into Ziploc bags (if not too hot) and cooling between layers of ice.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I've eaten over-easy fried eggs my whole life without a problem too.
My eggs have always been in the door of the fridge as well. Though these days my fridge has a Delorean style door over the eggs to old in cold air when the door is opened.
I've also eaten left over chicken that I left out too long (I was hungry. It was still good) but not for 14 hours. Not even for Pizza.
Our Immune system is pickin' for a fight. And if you don't give it one now and then, it'll look for something else to fight.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Lots of bakeries use pasteurized eggs.
How to you pasteurize an egg?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
You do it every easter. First you paint them, then you hide them in the pasture.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Well, I eat raw cookie dough -- raw eggs and all. Never been sick. I do tend to think that these guidelines are a bit over the top but I guess that's why I was curious about what works/doesn't work in the real world, when you're on a budget and can't just throw something out because someone ten feet away sneezed.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
They put it in hot (warm?) water for long enough to kill most of the bacteria on the shell without cooking the egg.
We just admittted a girl with kidney failure (needs to be on dialysis, may need kidney transplant) from Hemolytic-Uremic Syndrome. She caught the wrong strain of E. coli from drinking a neighbor's cow's unpasteurized milk. Very clean farm, stellar practices, but it only takes one bacterium of the wrong sort to seed and multiply. You can't see just one bacterium with the naked eye -- heck, you can't even see a glob containing several thousand -- and you can't sterilize cow udders. You can sanitize them, but you cannot sterilize living tissue. That's what pasteurization is for.
Most people who drink unpasteurized milk in the US do so without terrible consequences, but it's a crapshoot. [even if the odds may be good, and even if there may be benefits, the consequences don't make it worth it to me]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
One egg is unlikely to be contaminated (although possible). When you work with large industrial batches of food, you are often using comingled eggs -- dozens, even up to thousands -- in a slurry, and that only takes one bad egg to contaminate all of it.
I worry less about individual eggs, although it's still a crapshoot there, too. Depends on how lucky you feel and how long you expect the run to last. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
<--- drinks unpasteurized goat milk
<--- loves it
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: They put it in hot (warm?) water for long enough to kill most of the bacteria on the shell without cooking the egg.
Interesting, if you look at (what I think is) their patent, they actually seal the egg with wax after antibacterial fluid (? hopefully not just water with antibiotics) in drawn into the egg.
I think I'll just continue to cook my eggs well
Edit to add: link and reading further, it looks like they prefer to use alkyl dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride as a bactericide
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
There is a fair risk of that sort of problem from hamburgers too, which is why one branch of my husband's family won't eat them. The other half believes in Mad Cow disease.
I don't understand, well, I guess I sort of know why someone would avoid pasteurized milk. I think the homogenization is much more damaging to any healthful properties it might in theory have, though. Mainly I think of milk as a treat and not a source of nourishment. Homogenization forces the milk into an unnatural emulsion which I think is probably harder to digest.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Milk is very good for you and it has been pasteurized for a very long time -- since sometime in the 1800's, if I recall. All the studies of the health benefits of dairy involve pasteurized milk. I am pretty sure that the nutrition information on the label is post-pasteurization too, although I can't be sure.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
I haven't read all of the responses, but we (Hawaii Department of Health) require prepared foods to be consumed or discarded after 4 hours at room temperature. I would absolutely recommend discarding prepared foods after 14 hours.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: I particularly find that while I can't eat an entire large pizza in one sitting, I can over the course of the next 6 hours
I can leave pizza for days--even if it has pepperoni or Canadian bacon. Milk, on the other hand, has no such thing as a "sell date" in my psyche. I throw any left overs out the day before the printed date on the carton. Everything else is about 4 hours for me--unless it's chicken. I have a mild paranoia of bad chicken. I need to overcook it and it can only be out an hour.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
in my house? 3-4 days. Not joking, I'm only partially sick but Ild rather not waste perfectly good food.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by pooka: I don't understand, well, I guess I sort of know why someone would avoid pasteurized milk. I think the homogenization is much more damaging to any healthful properties it might in theory have, though. Mainly I think of milk as a treat and not a source of nourishment. Homogenization forces the milk into an unnatural emulsion which I think is probably harder to digest.
Why would mixing up the milk fats make the milk harder to digest?
I consider milk a treat and a source of nutrients. It's both delicious and good for you Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I consider milk a treat and a source of nutrients. It's both delicious and good for you
Just like twinkies!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Lots of bakeries use pasteurized eggs.
How to you pasteurize an egg?
Personally, I use the microwave. Or I buy 'em powdered.
Link (halfway down the page)
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
rivka, on pasteurizing a certain hen product:
quote:Personally, I use the microwave.
Aren't you afraid it will eggsplode?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*patiently* No, the yolks are well-beaten to avoid that eventuality. Actually, it is possible to use a similar method that does not beat them -- but even then you pierce the yolk so it won't go splat all over the microwave.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
thanks for eggsplaining.
patiently.
::ducks::
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:A healthy immune system can handle quite a bit of "unsafe" food without any serious problems. If not, most people would die of food poisoning in college.
Also, the whole human race would be extinct. Think of the food our species has been eating for thousand years. Rather a lot of it has been off.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
:::eggs the drakester:::
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
I will eat raw cookie dough until the day I die.
Even though I now know that eating raw cookie dough may happen the day that I die.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by docmagik: I will eat raw cookie dough until the day I die.
Even though I now know that eating raw cookie dough may happen the day that I die.
Yeah, but what a way to go. Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
Milk is supposed to last 4 days after its sell by date...but that depends on how it is treated up to that date.
The 4 days guideline assumes that the milk was refrigerated for that entire time. Some people leave their milk out while they eat their cereal...that cuts into the expiration date. Also, the store you buy it at might be leaving the milk out for a while after they take delivery.
If you are sure your refrigerator is cold enough (and you are not keeping the milk on the door) and you are not leaving it out...it should last for 4 days past the date. If that is not happening, you might try a different store...because the store you are buying the milk at might be leaving it out. Of course it is also possible that something is happening somewhere else in the supply chain.
The estimates that I have seen are that for every hour that the milk spends outside of refrigeration its shelf life decreases by one day.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
In the military they printed this chart on the side that showed how fast your milk goes bad at various temperatures. I miss that sucker.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi:
quote:A healthy immune system can handle quite a bit of "unsafe" food without any serious problems. If not, most people would die of food poisoning in college.
Also, the whole human race would be extinct. Think of the food our species has been eating for thousand years. Rather a lot of it has been off.
Indeed. Our infant, child, and adult mortality rates have improved vastly with increased hygiene practices, though.
As I said before, you can roll a lot of dice before you get two to come up snake eyes. Eventually, though, someone does roll them, and that can be a really crappy situation. E.g., a four-year old who needs kidney transplantation and who will be on lifelong immunosuppressant medication, all completely, utterly preventable.
It's a choice. People make choices about taking risks for themselves and others all the time. You do get a different perspective when you see what does happen to somebody eventually, though.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I'm sure you do, CT. However, I have God only knows how many friends who drink raw milk every day, and they all give it to their kids, and nobody's getting sick with kidney failure.
Truthfully, the only illnesses I have heard of from raw milk are from cow, not goat. For whatever reason, goat appears to be safer.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I am very glad that your friends find it so, steven, and I hope that continues to work for them.
Kidney failure isn't common. It's a crapshoot -- rare when it does happen, but predictable that it will happen to someone involved, sometime. Luck or fate or just the odds may be on the side of those who skip that particular roll.
Mind you, other (rare) bad things happen that are completely preventable, and I myself still engage in the risk. I wouldn't deny that.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
By definition, all of those kids have gone into renal failure. You don't know any of those kids (~5000 over the last 10 yrs), but I know 3 of them. Neither part of that sentence surprises me, given that the current US population of kids <5yrs is about 20 million. A lot of people do know those kids, though -- just not you.
About 15% of those kids each year have permanent kidney damage. I know one of them. You know none of the ~750 to whom this has happened over the last 10 years, whereas I know 1. Again, this does not surprise me.
It's a risk people chose to take or not, same as many many risks. I would, however, want people to know the truth of that risk, that they may eventually have to explain to their daughter that the reason why she had a kidney transplant at 4 yrs old was directly attributable to a choice they made. That is what my patient's parents will have to do, or they will have to choose to conceal it.
steve, that strain of E. coli was directly traced to that particular cow. It was genetically typed to the same strain -- despite the sanitation regimes, despite the passion and love of the farmers, despite how clean the farm looked, despite all of that, there is where the damge came from.
I don't know whether there is a differential rate of either colonization or transference between cow's milk or goat's milk. I suspect over-representation likely may be confounding your analysis; that is, probably there are more people you know drinking unpasteurized cow's milk than goat's milk, simply because there are more cows raised for milk than goats. The actual rates may be the same or comparable. I don't know, myself.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"I suspect over-representation likely may be confounding your analysis"
Possibly. I considered that myself.
Your numbers, however, mean next-to-nothing unless you can show the ratio of apple juice-related to milk-related permanent kidney failure.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: Your numbers, however, mean next-to-nothing unless you can show the ratio of apple juice-related to milk-related permanent kidney failure.
steven. I am not trying to convince anyone that he or she is likely to get kidney failure from drinking unpasteurized milk or apple juice. That would, indeed, require comparative numbers. (I don't think you have it correct to say "unless you can show the ratio of apple juice-related to milk-related permanent kidney failure," because I think you mean I would need to show the ratio of all who drink unpasteurized juice or milk to the number of all of those who drink it -and- get kidney failure.)
But because I am not speaking about comparative likelihood, comparative rates would be irrelevant.
I am saying that the risk exists, even if it is small. To establish that, the numbers of incidence are not only more than "next-to-nothing," they are everything. Hook, line, and sinker.
People make the choice. I just want them to be fully aware of the possible consequences if they are going to make that choice.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
A lot depends on the quality of the animal's feed as well. Common sense would tell you to spend the money to feed cows correctly so the milk is safe, versus damaging it through processing to kill bacteria.
yeah, it's more expensive to buy the right soil amendments and mineral supplements. Was that your point? Cost?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Additionally, for what it's worth, HUS is primarily a disease of children under 5 yrs old. Adults seem to handle that particular bacterial load better, or at least differently -- so if you the drinkers you know are mostly adults, then they are even less likely as a group to ever see this particular problem.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
If I left ravioli out from 6-10 can I still eat it?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: A lot depends on the quality of the animal's feed as well. Common sense would tell you to spend the money to feed cows correctly so the milk is safe, versus damaging it through processing to kill bacteria.
yeah, it's more expensive to buy the right soil amendments and mineral supplements. Was that your point? Cost?
All living cows, regardless of feed, have E. coli in their GI tract. This particular strain of E. coli is not more or less damaging to the cow than any other -- it doesn't affect them in any particular way. It is what makes their guts work.
I cannot make sense of what you are saying.
The last part [about cost] seems even more out of nowhere. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:According to the above mentioned Journal of Dairy Science there is a solution.
When cows were switched from a grain diet to hay for only five days, O157 declined 1,000-fold.
steven, this is quite interesting. Thanks. I will go digging now for details.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
There are two basic ways to raise cows. You can either feed them what's cheap and convenient, and then feed them antibiotics to keep them from the inevitable illnesses that will result, or you can spend the money to buy the correct supplements for the grazing land so that the grass is mineral and nutrient-rich. The second way is better for 2 reasons:
1. because you don't end up with VREs and other deadly antibiotic-resistant bugs
2. The milk and meat from those cows is healthier eating.
It's also important to feed quick-dried hay in the winter, instead of grain or slow-dried hay.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I see a lot of people online quoting another person who has briefly summarized an incompletely-identified Journal of Dairy Science article from 2003, but I don't see anyone that seems to have read the actual article itself (other than the quoted person, who may well have), and nobody cites it explicitly.
If anyone has the specific source for the JDS article above, please let me know. I'd be terribly interested.
---
Edited to add: Hey, thanks, steven! Fascinating! Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
"Hey, thanks, steven! Fascinating!"
Just doin' mah job, ma'am. Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
CT, I don't have sources (all of the books that I got this information from have long since been returned to the library), but here is what I've read so that you'll have a more concrete idea of what you're looking for.
The claim is as follows:
1. These strains of e. coli that are really nasty to humans don't bother the cattle. (You already mentioned this).
2. However, a cow's digestive track has a mostly a neutral pH, so a human's acidic stomach used to provide a defense.
3. Feeding grain to ruminants causes the bacterial commnunity in the rumen to change to bacteria that can digest the grain, which also make the rumen acidic.
4. Under those conditions, all of the bacteria are being selected for resistance to acid, including the nasty strains of e. coli.
5. These new strains are no longer killed by the acid in human stomachs, removing one of our best defenses.
6. Raising cattle (and other ruminants) without grain maintains a neutral pH so that they don't develop the acid-resistant bacteria.
There are of course a number of other factors as well: the cleanliness of frequent pasture changes vs the filth of a feedlot; healthier animals when they eat their natural diet; less antibiotic use since the animals are healthier naturally, so less chance of antibiotic-resistant bacteria being formed.
Hopefully that's enough detail about the claims made that you can find the sources that you want.
--Mel
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Poulan talks about this in his latest book, Omnivore's Dilemma, but I don't know if he references anything or not.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: If I left ravioli out from 6-10 can I still eat it?
I would without a second thought. I think we discovered that the official, most cautious guidelines say no more than 2 hours.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
This conversation has made me think of a few questions for those in the know:
1. I didn't know apple juice was pasteurized. I'm not sure what that means. Does that suggest that if I bought apples from the grocery store and put them in a juicer to make apple juice, that I'd be at risk? (Hypothetical question only...I don't drink apple juice at all or give it to my son.)
2. How many kids actually drink unpasteurized milk/apple juice in a year? As I'm a city girl and always have been, it just seems really weird to me to think of doing that at all. My husband is a country boy and worked on his grandparents' farm in his youth so he first introduced me to the idea that people did that sometimes....but in his case it was a bum who hadn't eaten in a week that his grandparents took on and were disgusted when they found out he drank from the cow and offered him a real meal! His great-gparents were dairy farmers and would never have done such a thing. 500 kids out of 20 million in the United States seems so tiny as to be completely out of sight out of mind. But it's not 500 out of 20 million because I don't think very many people drink it!
3. Slightly related but on a different topic: How common is it to get sick from raw egg? I'm not saying I'm going to change my cookie dough habits, but I'm curious.
[ August 05, 2007, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Christine ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I've been eating raw batter and cookie dough since I was a kid. I've never gotten sick from those. Sometimes germs can make your immune system stronger.
I read a site that said to clean the eggs off with soap before putting them in the dough.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: This conversation has made me think of a few questions for those in the know:
1. I didn't know apple juice was pasteurized. I'm not sure what that means. Does that suggest that if I bought apples from the grocery store and put them in a juicer to make apple juice, that I'd be at risk? (Hypothetical question only...I don't drink apple juice at all or give it to my son.)
In general, home made products don't have the same risks of disease and contamination that industrial products face. You can easily keep one juicer and a half dozen apples very clean, and if you see a questionable apple, you can throw it out. An industrial operation has such a great volume of product, so many people working, large machines which cannot be broken down and cleaned frequently, and many other factors which make sanitation a more dangerous issue. They also have bottling, shipping, and storage times for more opportunity for spoilage and contamination. They NEED to introduce pasteurization and other measures to combat the inherent dangers of the process.
If you wash your apples and machine and drink the juice in a timely manner, your chances of contamination and bacterial growth are much, much smaller than a factory setting.
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