SNL is brilliant.
Posted by Elmer's Glue (Member # 9313) on :
Haha, stupid girls.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Hilarious.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Haha!
I think I would never have played chess if it were like that *shudder*
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Grrr....
That is all.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
Anyway, as commercials go, this has that one beat (at least for parents).
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Oh, come now. Even Susan Polgar thought that it was funny.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Wow. That was incredibly sexist. And not funny.
The chewable valium was hilarious, though. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That was very funny - it's clearly satirizing the marketers who target crap like that.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
I understand why it was *supposed* to be funny. Nevertheless, humor is highly subjective. It was not funny to me.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yes humor is highly subjective. It was very funny to me.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Christine: Wow. That was incredibly sexist. And not funny.
The chewable valium was hilarious, though.
quote:Originally posted by Christine: I understand why it was *supposed* to be funny. Nevertheless, humor is highly subjective. It was not funny to me.
Agreed, on all points.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Yeah, I didn't think it was particularly funny, either. But, then, I don't think most of what SNL puts out these days is funny at all.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
Didn't bother me, but I didn't find it particularly clever, either.
Except for the "you'll wake the baby" part. That was clever.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I don't get how you can understand why it was supposed to be funny, but still think it was sexist. The whole reason it's funny is because it makes fun OF sexists.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Which is emphasized by the fact that I found it on Susan Polgar's blog. She is former Women's World Chess Champion and devotes most of her time now to supporting girls in chess.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I don't get how you can understand why it was supposed to be funny, but still think it was sexist. The whole reason it's funny is because it makes fun OF sexists.
Agreed.
And that actually looked more fun than real chess. >_>
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I think it's kind of interesting that most of the people here (if not all) who thought it was hilarious happen to be guys. Maybe the guys in question ought to consider why that might be. And please don't use the fact that one or two women thought it was funny to dismiss it.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I thought it was funny because I've never thought of chess as a boy's game. And making a version tailor made for girls is so ridiculous. I would like to say that if they turned it around and made a boy's version were the pieces smashed each other and stuff I would find it equally entertaining.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You mean wizard chess?
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:You mean wizard chess?
If they made a commercial were kids were playing it and saying things like "awesome!" and "I'm gonna smash your puny forces." and having the pieces use exaggerated expressions and yells.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I thought it was funny because whenever I go to chess tournaments girls are like unicorns. It was funny on several levels. You may call it sexist, but it has an element in truth only in the rarity of girls playing chess seriously. Girls can play just as well as boys, but not many play it.
That is quite sad for me, because how am I supposed to find a beautiful 18 year old supermodel who likes me and also plays chess, not to mention likes all the same shows and movies that I do.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I find it funny because it makes fun of the stupidity of toy commercials. In this case, girls' toy commercials.
I would have been equally amused if it was a commercial for the "New Easy-bake Oven for Boyz, with Racing Stripes and New Missle Firing Action!"
(Oh, and just for the record, I have in my my youth used and enjoyed an easy-bake oven.)
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
They really should have made an easy-bake oven for boys, those things were delicious.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I think it's kind of interesting that most of the people here (if not all) who thought it was hilarious happen to be guys. Maybe the guys in question ought to consider why that might be. And please don't use the fact that one or two women thought it was funny to dismiss it.
In this case I would say its for the same reason many conservatives don't find the Daily Show funny. On one hand I see where you're coming from, but on the other I really can't come to view that joke as anything but harmless. There are plenty of real ads out there that play off of stereotypes of both men and women and I don't find them particularly offensive either.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I thought it was funny because of the weird juxtaposition of typical girl toy commercial with the traditionally gender-neutral game of chess.
And I would have loved an easy bake oven, but alas I just got slot cars and transformers.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I think it's kind of interesting that most of the people here (if not all) who thought it was hilarious happen to be guys. Maybe the guys in question ought to consider why that might be.
I think it's kind of interesting that more women (Shigosei, Rappin' Ronnie Reagan, porcelain girl) did not find it sexist or objectionable than women who stated they found it sexist or objectionable (rivka, Christine,Lisa).
quote:And please don't use the fact that one or two women thought it was funny to dismiss it.
Can I use the fact that a woman who both plays chess (better than almost everyone in the world) and dedicates significant time to making chess more popular with girls thinks it's hilarious?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
3 > 3 ?
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
They forgot to mention that you have to take turns losing so nobody gets their feelings hurt. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: 3 > 3 ?
Oh, I forgot to add the former women's world chess champion to that list.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I hope no one gets angry over this, but I remember when I was younger getting annoyed at TV because in every single instance of sibling rivalry between a brother and sister in any commercial or show, the girl would come out on top. And the same thing for husband and wife.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Well, commercials do reflect reality some of the time.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
You forgot to add my name to the rivka/Christine/Lisa list as well, although I didn't make that entirely clear in my post, I admit.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I'll chime in with a "me, too" to rivka/Christine/Lisa/Megan.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Since us dudes have been sharing why we thought it was funny, would you women folk mind sharing why you found it offensive?
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
It's demeaning. A lot of the behavior that the girls in that clip are showing is behavior that a lot of little girls really show. But not because girls are twits, like the girls in that clip. Because girls are trained to be that way. Girls aren't encouraged to play chess; boys are. That, Jon, is why girls are like unicorns at chess competitions. When my partner was a kid, the bell in their telephone wasn't working. She wanted to take it apart and figure out why, and fix it. Her father said, "Let your brother do that." Never mind that her brother hadn't even suggested wanting to do it. That kind of sexism is very irksome to those of us who think that girls and women are sentient human beings. And that commercial was like rubbing salt in a wound. It's frakkin' embarrassing, is what it is.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It kinda bothered me too, though I definitely get the joke. Maybe this is just a little too close to reality to be funny. You know? It's almost not a parody, when you look at the way toys are marketed to girls.
Sometimes I'm glad I'm not human. Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I'm a woman*, and I found it hilarious.
*Sorry, I lied. All men are liars.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote: Sometimes I'm glad I'm not human.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
The way I am interpreting your posts is that the reason we found it funny is because we viewed it as parodying reality. You found it as actually resembling reality. Doesn't that make us LESS sexist because we assume naturally that women can do as much as men, therefore find it funny.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Well, it is sort of irritating that the idea of chess being for boys is perpetuated. I still thought it was funny, though. I saw it as making fun of the really strong gender stereotypes seen in TV commercials. I think the suggested "chess for boys" commercial would be funny, too. That's another problem, I suppose -- chess was portrayed as something that boys do naturally (and really, at that age, a lot of boys probably wouldn't find it interesting), while girls need a modified version.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:A lot of the behavior that the girls in that clip are showing is behavior that a lot of little girls really show. But not because girls are twits, like the girls in that clip. Because girls are trained to be that way.
I dunno. I've got four daughters and they cover the whole range from love-pink-and-frilly-stuff to "I don't care if we're going to church, I'm not wearing a skirt!"
It's unfortunate when someone, like your partner's dad, tries to force a role on someone, but left to their own devices girls seem to end up all over the map. Some of them do end up like those girls in the commercial without any coercion.
Sometimes I feel like girls are more free in this regard than boys. A tomboy is still more socially acceptable than a fairy.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: chess was portrayed as something that boys do naturally, while girls need a modified version.
ding ding ding! Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: It's demeaning. A lot of the behavior that the girls in that clip are showing is behavior that a lot of little girls really show. But not because girls are twits, like the girls in that clip. Because girls are trained to be that way. Girls aren't encouraged to play chess; boys are.
Exactly. And by mocking the way the toy industry helps shape little girls to be this way by spoofing the typically ridiculous commercials they (the industry) produce, this sketch is contributing to sexism?
I'd like to think I'm a pretty broad thinker when it comes to sexism, negative portrayal of women in the media and the underlying discriminatory trends that dominate our thinking, but there's an intellectual leap here that I'm missing. I'm interested in hearing you explain further, and in hearing from rivka, Christine, CT, Megan, et al.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Well, it is sort of irritating that the idea of chess being for boys is perpetuated.
But...it isn't. The sketch actively mocks the idea of something as gender-neutral as chess needing a "girly" version.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I don't think that it was on purpose. I'm just a little bit bothered that the boy was shown being able to play, and the girl didn't seem to be able to grasp it. I'm sure the people making the sketch don't believe that, but it can be a little problematic to show those things, because our brains can start to accept those things as true if we see them enough. The actual chess for girls stuff was sufficiently over-the-top that it didn't bother me, though.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I wonder what an equally offensive play off of male stereotypes would be. I'm having a hard time imagining something in the same vein that I would find offensive. The closest I could think of is the "Mercury Mistress" sketch, but I thought that was funny too.
The Mercury Mistress commercial is pretty crude, so don't watch if you don't want to see someone simulating a sex act with an automobile. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6s7AEecXwg Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: Exactly. And by mocking the way the toy industry helps shape little girls to be this way by spoofing the typically ridiculous commercials they (the industry) produce, this sketch is contributing to sexism?
I didn't say that it "contributed" to sexism. I said "Grr..."
I found it obnoxious, because I don't think this is really something to laugh about. Sorry, I know that comes across as humorless, like the old Wellesley joke*, but it really is a sore spot. I see this stuff all the time, and it kills me that people don't even notice what they're doing. From the stupid damned pink aisles at Toys "R" Us to the obscene stuff that went on at my daughter's summer camp this year, it just irks me. A lot.
I see girls being told not to let boys see that they're smart, because it's threatening. And sure, it's not all girls, and it's not all parents, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not a major part of American culture.
I remember once when Tova was about a year and a half old, maybe two. We were at this pizza place, and there was a group of Scouts there. Tova took forever to get hair, so she looked like she had a crewcut. Of course, she was wearing a dress, too, which generally made it clear that she was a girl. But the Scout leader, while waiting for their pizza to come up, was walking around the room. And when he saw Tova, he thought she was a little boy. And he was all, "Hey there, fellow. How's it going?" When we told him she was a girl, he shifted gears almost unconsciously, and started saying, "Oh, aren't you the cutest thing." Now notice, when he thought she was a boy, he asked her questions, trying to elicit answers. When he thought she was a girl, he just said stuff about her appearance.
People who aren't the subjects of prejudice often think that people who are are just taking things too seriously when they get annoyed.
----- * The joke is this:
Q: How many Wellesley girls does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: It's Wellesley women, and it's not funny!
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ----- * The joke is this:
Q: How many Wellesley girls does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: It's Wellesley women, and it's not funny!
Reminds me of a joke a buddy told me.
Q: What do you call a black man who makes his living flying planes?
A: A pilot, you racist!
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:And he was all, "Hey there, fellow. How's it going?" When we told him she was a girl, he shifted gears almost unconsciously, and started saying, "Oh, aren't you the cutest thing." Now notice, when he thought she was a boy, he asked her questions, trying to elicit answers. When he thought she was a girl, he just said stuff about her appearance.
I really don't see this as all that bad. He's a scoutmaster, he spends a lot of time dealing with boys, thus he relates to them more, not to mention he's never been a little girl.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I thought it was very funny and exactly on the mark- a great commentary on the modern toy market. I hate the way so many toys are marketed to boys and girls with a huge gap down the middle like boys can't play with anything unless it's to do with battles or spaceships and girls can't play unless it's pink and has to do with unicorns or clothes.
It's not sexist at all, it's making fun of sexists.
quote:...chess was portrayed as something that boys do naturally, while girls need a modified version.
This is because that is how people think of chess often- and it's the same for things like Lego ("Lego is for boys!" I've heard it said by girls). You could do the reverse easily with a game that in popular culture is often seen as a girls' game- like House for example. "House for boys" would include offensive stereotypes of male home behavior such as the couch potato, the man who is never home etc. It might have like a remedial "how to" book for the socially-challenged male who is too hunter-gatherer masculine to relate to his family. The joke only works if it's something that's realistic. It could quite easily be a real commercial.
Sure, in reality it's not a laughing matter at all, but that's what comedy is- if people could only make people laugh at lighthearted issues, the best of comedy would be rather thin. Tom Lehrer sings about the death of everyone in the world.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
"Sure, in reality it's not a laughing matter at all, but that's what comedy is- if people could only make people laugh at lighthearted issues, the best of comedy would be rather thin. Tom Lehrer sings about the death of everyone in the world."
That reminds me of when Michael defines laughter in Stranger in a Strange Land.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I agree with eros entirely on the subject thus far. The commercial wasn't a diss on girls, it was a diss on the toy industry for making all that crap and making girls believe they should want it in the first place. They went after the source, and since it sounds like a lot of this ire is also towards the source, why diss something that agrees with you?
Personally, I found the little exchange between MEC and rivka to be sexist against men, and though in jest, at least as equally offensive as the women in this thread who find it so, find this faux commercial.
quote:And he was all, "Hey there, fellow. How's it going?" When we told him she was a girl, he shifted gears almost unconsciously, and started saying, "Oh, aren't you the cutest thing." Now notice, when he thought she was a boy, he asked her questions, trying to elicit answers. When he thought she was a girl, he just said stuff about her appearance.
Wild guess, but isn't it possible that he felt like a jerk for more or less insulting her and thought maybe the best rapid response would be to make sure he didn't hurt her feelings? Maybe it was being a little sexist, but it was also being thoughtful as well, or at least considerate.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: Since us dudes have been sharing why we thought it was funny, would you women folk mind sharing why you found it offensive?
If it were threatening that young girls were being marketed to this way, it wouldn't be funny.
I suppose it is preaching to the choir, in that those who find it funny would have to already "get it;" you'd have to agree that this marketing is skewed and silly in order to see the humor. But you have to not only "get it" to find it funny, you have not to find it threatening.
I know some people find it offensive or problematic that not everything can be made fun of, can be jested at. I know at least one person I love as a friend insists on this as a worldview. But I think it isn't necessary to be aghast and flummoxed by something to be unmoved by what others see as humorous.
For me, I watch this and just feel that long, deep "Ah, right -- this is supposed to be funny, right?" sigh inside.
Babies in a blender jokes can be very funny if you don't have kids. They can be funny if you do have kids, so long as your kids are relatively safe and healthy. It's much much less likely to be funny if your child at your side has a stump for an arm because know what? She stuck her hand in a blender when she was a toddler. And sure, someday even if your kid is permanently affected by this, maybe she'll [or you will] find her own dark humor in telling baby-in-a-blender jokes. But that will be when she is safe, is not threatened, is past it. [the immediate occurrence, that is -- not the disability itself]
We're not past this. We aren't past it at all, and I find it currently threatening to the women and girls I know.
I could make jokes right now about some things like, oh, starvation, or being a nigger, or what have you, and I could talk about in which contexts it might be funny and which it would probably not. But I won't. There are people (I know some, and I love some) who seem -- to me -- to be determined to make it clear that yes, it's all funny to me. And know what? I'm not going to argue with y'all. I'm sure it is funny to you. Be that as it may, this is why it isn't funny to me, and I'm plenty sure about that, just like you.
So it goes. I really don't think I have anything left to say on it, but the question seemed an honest one, so there's an honest answer.
---
Edited to add: To be absolutely clear, I don't find this tragic, or appalling, or ghastly [or "offensive," as the dichotomy was presented in the question quoted at the top of this post]. I just don't find it funny. What I find is merely that long, deep "Ah, right -- this is supposed to be funny, right?" sigh inside.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:We're not past this. We aren't past it at all, and I find it currently threatening to the women and girls I know.
Well put.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Thanks CT, that was a great answer.
Posted by guinevererobin (Member # 10753) on :
I have to say, I don't find that particularly funny in terms of how it's played out, but I have... my own sense of humor. However, I do think the premise of the skit is funny. It's making fun of the toy industry that I've always that I've always thought is pretty ridiculous (I hated when I was little and they had "boy" and "girl" happy meals at McDonald's because I always wanted the Tonka trucks version - glad they've gotten more PC over the years).
quote:People who aren't the subjects of prejudice often think that people who are are just taking things too seriously when they get annoyed.
I don't know. I've been through a lot of crap because I'm a female in a macho, male-dominated occupation. But overreacting to a joke seems to validate it to an extent - what do you have to be so sensitive about?
When the guys I work with make a joke I don't like, I roll my eyes and go on doing my job. Eventually, things will balance out because women proved their equality with men - not because they whined about being treated inequally (not that I don't whine, to my girlfriends, about how men are all stupid ).
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
As 'womenfolk' myself, and hugely vocal about this kind of subjection of women and girls- I've written/ranted about it here, actually- to the "pink/blue" culture of the western world, I am surprised that other people like me don't find it funny.
I understand why you don't find it funny. Like I said before, I recognise how serious a problem it is. But I still laughed, because I think it's drawing attention to something that's a real problem in our world today, and in a relatively clever way.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I recently ordered the happy meal and said I wanted the one with a stuffed animal and was told, oh, you mean you want the girl one?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
[rivka and MattP:] Ah, well, I'm glad it may have been useful. *smile
And I'll reiterate that I know and love many people who find things funny that I do not. I don't think it's necessarily a measure of a person, but more a likely reflection of individual context. And context is something which is only partly a matter of our own choices, and partly a matter of what is brought to us, and parly a matter of what we brought to the situation (both conscious and unconscious).
I wouldn't be spending much time on critiquing what any of you found humorous, or what any of you find sexually appealling (though your sexual actions may come under my baleful gaze -- yes, you, you tree-humpers), or what have you. I do have other fish to fry.
Anyone know any good cantankerous mother-in-law jokes? Mine is having a heart attack right now as we speak, 1500 miles away. We just got off the phone with her only minutes ago -- I was typing the above as my husband pleaded with her to call an ambulance. She's 80, diabetic, and her nitroglycerin isn't working over the last half hour, but she doesn't want to go into get treatment until "Wednesday, when there is a doctor I already know there."
Scratch that request. Give me a few days after the funeral, so I can get some distance.
(Crap. This is exactly what my mother did to me, and I had to get ready to do CPR on her the night she died. After she was unconscious, because she wasn't having any of it while she had breath to insist she was fine.
My husband is flying out on the first flight tomorrow. I don't trust myself to go. )
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I didn't say that it "contributed" to sexism. I said "Grr..."
I found it obnoxious, because I don't think this is really something to laugh about. Sorry, I know that comes across as humorless, like the old Wellesley joke*, but it really is a sore spot.
I apologize; others who responded labeled the joke sexist, and I lumped you in with them.
I didn't find it obnoxious, although I didn't find it funny either. It may be a dividing line I'm not able to cross; having never been female, or the father/sibling of a female, I have no first- or even good secondhand experience with it.
Your Wellesley joke (which I hadn't heard) reminds me of a similarly humorless joke that I agree with:
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Rape.
Rape who?
Rape's not funny!
quote:I see girls being told not to let boys see that they're smart, because it's threatening. And sure, it's not all girls, and it's not all parents, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's not a major part of American culture.
Am I? I suspect an age and/or geographic barrier here, because I don't see this at all. I'm 23, and my female classmates used to boggle at the idea of such blatant sexist thoughts because they were completely foreign. It's the sort of thing we'd attribute to "rednecks" and laugh off, because it didn't seem real.
There are other prevalent sexist trends thoroughly incorporated into America that are impossible not to see, but your cited example just isn't one of them, and it's unfair to accuse me of kidding myself just because I grew up in an environment where that simply wasn't prevalent.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oh, CT, I'm so sorry. *hug*
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:though your sexual actions may come under my baleful gaze -- yes, you, you tree-humpers
You've seen me play animal crossing?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
rivka, why do they tell us? WHy do they tell me? Is it so that we will beg and plead, and show how much we care?
For my mother, at least, it wasn't because she wanted me to make her do it. When I tried, when I insisted on cleaning the house because she was so ill, sick from chemotherapy and living in mold and filth, then is when she "had a heart attack" and "had to go to the emergency room." She wasn't, of course, she was just mad. But I was still supposed to come visit her if I loved her, and I was supposed to stay with her, and I was supposed to watch her cough up until she bled every morning.
And then when she was septic, when I watched the petechiae break out on her body as she was dying, all I could do was walk out the door so my brother could see for himself that she could not take care of herself, not at all anymore. Her brain was motheaten from tumors, and she was falling asleep with a lit cigarette in her hand, and her oxygen tank right next to the bed. And 30 other old people living tight around her, with no protection from a possible explosion except thin walls.
And so I walked out, and lo and behold, we drove 3 miles to the nearest hotel, and we checked in, and I had just ordered a (well-anticipated) margarita from the bar, when my brother called me back. She had passed out and he could see she was turning blue. And so the timeworn circus began, but to no good effect this time.
So. Anyway. To make it relevant again, I would love some good mother-in-law jokes, but not right now, okay?
*sigh
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Well. Dave called her back, and she is calling an ambulance now. She can't breathe well enough to argue much.
(I had more to say than I thought, but about other things than the topic! My apologies to the original poster for the derail, and please to rerail now. I'm okay, and I'm going to bed, and what will be will be. (((rivka))), darling, thank you.)
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
So, I am a bit ashamed to admit this now, but I was slightly turned off warhammer 40k because it felt like a very "boy" game. The soldiers seemed to be mostly men or very slutty. And of course, everyone playing where I am is male. I did play 40k a bit and then discovered Warhammer fantasy and so I spend my money on that instead.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: rivka, why do they tell us? WHy do they tell me? Is it so that we will beg and plead, and show how much we care?
Hell if I know. My parents, God bless them, do not pull this stuff. (I didn't even hear about my dad's it-wasn't-a-heart-attack-but-he-had-worrying-symptoms until he was already in the hospital. Actually, he probably didn't call my mother until he was under medical care either.) But my dad's mother really did. Until her dementia was so far advanced that she couldn't any more. I never figured out why she liked making her sons crazy either.
*hug* I do have a bunch of MIL jokes. My rabbi tells the best ones -- which he gets from his MIL. Tell me when, and we'll see how many I can recall.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
CT, I'm so sorry. I'm glad that she's calling an ambulance.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Oh my. Best wishes for you and your family.
((CT))
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(Thanks. She is being taken care of at Emergency, and my husband will be with her soon tomorrow. rivka, I will take you up on that when the time is right!)
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I think it's kind of interesting that most of the people here (if not all) who thought it was hilarious happen to be guys. Maybe the guys in question ought to consider why that might be. And please don't use the fact that one or two women thought it was funny to dismiss it.
I thought it was funny because women are dumb Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:And he was all, "Hey there, fellow. How's it going?" When we told him she was a girl, he shifted gears almost unconsciously, and started saying, "Oh, aren't you the cutest thing." Now notice, when he thought she was a boy, he asked her questions, trying to elicit answers. When he thought she was a girl, he just said stuff about her appearance.
Wild guess, but isn't it possible that he felt like a jerk for more or less insulting her and thought maybe the best rapid response would be to make sure he didn't hurt her feelings? Maybe it was being a little sexist, but it was also being thoughtful as well, or at least considerate.
Actually, it looked like he didn't even notice that he acted differently towards her before and after we told him. Like it was completely unconscious.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: Sure, in reality it's not a laughing matter at all, but that's what comedy is- if people could only make people laugh at lighthearted issues, the best of comedy would be rather thin. Tom Lehrer sings about the death of everyone in the world.
I think perhaps SOME parody might have evoked laughter at this subject, but this one just didn't work for me. It felt a little too close to reality. It's very subtle, hitting just the right note when you're doing a parody. I think this one just failed to hit the right note to evoke laughter in me, other than the sort of uncomfortable hehehewhilebackingup sort of laughter. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Oh CT! I'm so sorry about your MIL <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<hugs>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
and also about your mom.
Humans are stubborn and cantankerous, and they insist on defying death and disability and living life on their own terms. Even when it hurts them terribly and those who love them and have to watch. It's part of being human and wounded. You have such a healing touch, dear. You could have done so much for her if she'd let you. There's nothing more painful than to watch those we love make choices with which we don't agree, choices that hurt them irrevocably. But you did exactly the right thing, you let her have her free agency, which is more important than life.
I hope your Mother in Law will be fine. She's been taught all her life not to be a burden, not to make waves. She's just living that way, the way she believes she should. That's all any of us can do.
I love you.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
Wow, this topic just exploded overnight.
I only managed to skim the comments, so I hope I'm not doing the broken record thing, but here's the thing...
Satire is actually one of my favorite forms of humor. The trouble is, *all* satire walks a fine line between rib-cracking laughter and groans/growls. Satire deals in truth, and certain truths just aren't funny no matter how you present them or exaggerate them.
Someone brought up the Daily Show and I love it, in general, but it doesn't always make me laugh. (And I don't just mean the occasional potty humor.) Sometimes something is a little too scary in reality, or too sad. As I said before, it can be very subjective.
It's not always subjective. There are some news stories -- loss of life/human tragedies come to mind -- that just don't make the Daily Show (at least not directly...they may talk about the President's handling of the aftermath of 9/11, but there was nothing funny about that day to anyone).
This commercial was supposed to be funny because:
1.) Girls don't often play chess and often, it is because chess is perceived to be a boy's game. 2.) Girls are inundated with ridiculous princess/nurturing images from toy commercials where the actors do inane and completely unimaginative things with the toys they are trying to sell.
It was not funny to me because there is not nearly enough of the sentiment, "But girls really can play chess!" in real life and because I find that fact too upsetting to be funny. As for the second element, I was insulted by that when I was a child and I just couldn't help remembering that people would insist upon getting me Barbie dolls when I wanted Legos. Nobody would buy me Legos. I had to sneak into my brother's room to play with them.
P.S. I won't keep my son from playing with dolls and if I ever have a daughter, she can have Legos and cars and whatever else she wants.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I never thought there'd be a thread to share this little tidbit about my childhood...but what the heck, it's perfectly relevant.
When I was a kid, I played with flutter ponies, which were My Little Ponies with wings. They made excellent battle steeds for my GI Joes. But ever since then and to this day I get berated by my older brother for playing with 'girl toys' and 'acting gay.' There's plenty of work to be done on both sides of the gender aisle.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I never thought there'd be a thread to share this little tidbit about my childhood...but what the heck, it's perfectly relevant.
When I was a kid, I played with flutter ponies, which were My Little Ponies with wings. They made excellent battle steeds for my GI Joes. But ever since then and to this day I get berated by my older brother for playing with 'girl toys' and 'acting gay.' There's plenty of work to be done on both sides of the gender aisle.
Absolutely! I don't remember how it came up, but I remember my sister in law telling me that her husband refuses to buy dolls for boys. Now, my son has enough stuffed animals, but I still have my eye out for a baby doll...the hard plastic kind that he could even put in the tub. (Was looking for it in earnest before I miscarried...not so urgent now.) The only thing is, I thought it would be neat to find him a boy baby, not because I'm afraid of turning him gay or any of that nonsense, but because there is a certain amount of gender identity whether you program it or not. But I can't find a boy baby doll anywhere. (I've tried 5 stores so far.) Sigh...
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I used to play with a doll ( who I named "michelle") when I was four. I'd change her diaper, feed her, hold her, etc. She was just a regular baby-sized baby doll, like they market to little girls.
Maybe that explains why I was so good with my daughter when she was a very young infant. When my ex was too tired and depressed to do very much in the weeks after she had Skyler, I stepped in and handled the diaper-changing and feeding like I had been doing it for years.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Maybe consider getting something like playmobil or duplo where you have little plastic people/animals: boys and girls and adults and babies and cats and dogs etc. Generally such toys are considered more girly because they contain people in a civilian capacity, but they are pretty much gender neutral.
I was never much of a storyteller when I played so dolls were never my thing. However, with things like Playmobil there are numerous ways to play with them: I was always a furnisher- I'd set up the house entirely, narrating names and backstory as I did so, and when it was done, that was the end of the game. My brother was more of a player but he wanted to film the narrative he invented. My second youngest sister was a player, she makes them walk and talk, and my youngest sister is a bit of my brother and my second youngest sister combined.
Although I had a boy baby doll- Bicky Kingsnorth, King of the dolls- I played with him less. EDIT: However, I'm glad I had him, so I guess just go for it and see what happens.
~~~~~
On a related note about children's toys:
Another thing about the current climate in the western world is the sheer proliferation of toys that children are given. We we interested to discover that my second cousins, when visiting us, didn't know how to play where they had no or few prefabricated toys, like at our cottage.
Never mind that we have a treehouse and the lake and sticks and flowers and grass and bugs and all kinds of things that can be adopted into a game- any kind of game- to carry it along. They didn't know how to play with the natural environment.
Like toys marketed at girls and boys, this feeling that children need a large amount of toys is, if not damaging, unnecessary. Sure, it's very nice if kids have enough toys to carry them through the day, but it's also nice to teach children to interact with the outdoors environment in an imaginative or exploratory way. Not everyone has access to a garden, but mostly everyone has a park or goes on a camping trip, or can get to somewhere- like a beach- which has a "natural" feel.
However, I think it's those who have enough money for loads of toys who most neglect the more simple forms of play.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: There's plenty of work to be done on both sides of the gender aisle.
I'd heartily agree.
---
Tatiana, thank you. It helps to read a more charitable perspective than I was holding -- and as this is not about me, but about my mother-in-law and about my sweetie, getting that perspective on it helps enormously.
[I had figured out before the end that what my mother wanted from me (though I don't know about my MIL yet) was to witness her suffering, not to try to make it better for her. So hard, though.
She had a lot of suffering, but you are right (I think) in that being able to exert her own agency was the only thing which seemed to mitigate that suffering. Nonetheless, when she was unable not to put others at grave risk -- the lit cigarettes and the nodding off under morphine and the oxygen tank -- that was when I felt we had to supercede her expressed wishes. The other people in the complex would have been injured, too, with a good chances of some of them being killed. I had to go back to residency the next Monday , and she wouldn't have allowed anyone else to be there full-time. As it was, it seemed that every time I closed my eyes, she would be up and tripping over oxygen cords (and -- bless her stubborn heart! -- insisting on sleeping right next to this hulking huge glass coffee table) and lighting a cigarette. I was terrified to sleep. It was a long, long month.
And wouldn't you know -- the night my brother and I came to agreement that we had to go against her wishes was the night she died. Actually, my brother realized this as she began the final process of dying, although we never acted or spoke on it. A bit of a blessing, there. The infection had had just enough time to overwhelm her, just the night before we would have had to have that very hard talk and started to take away her agency.]
---
Edited to add:
quote:Like toys marketed at girls and boys, this feeling that children need a large amount of toys is, if not damaging, unnecessary.
Another hearty agreement.
I think the needs for and barriers to outdoor play are underrecognized in public policy, too. One of the main reasons parents gave for discouraging outdoor play at a particular Native American reservation was the roaming packs of semi-feral dogs. They didn't need more playground equipment to get the kids away from computer and TV screens -- what they really needed most was an animal control officer.
But until the parents were systematically assessed, nobody at the policy level really understood what the best use of more funds would be.
[ September 11, 2007, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
CT, I'm watching my own mother's slow decline with the same idea in mind. Until she's a danger to others, she get full self-determination. I try to persuade but I don't do anything she doesn't agree to and believe in. I'm not looking forward to how heartbreaking it will be to take away her agency, should that ever happen. I think your mom (as determined a lady as she was) must have felt that blessing very much, that she died with hers still intact.
It's also complicated by my understanding that I forced Drive By to accept medicine (for her asthma and bowel inflammation) which was actually making her worse (her Cushings, which we didn't realize she had yet), and she knew it, and tried to tell me, but I wouldn't listen. I hope she will forgive me for that. I feel very much that I wronged her terribly. I had the power to force her to take the treatment that I thought was best for her, but I didn't have the understanding to know what I was really doing. I think our humility and awe in the face of the unbreachable wall of ignorance that separates us from other beings must always keep us treading very carefully in matters of agency and self-determination.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
In terms of social perception, there is a lot of work to be done certainly. In terms of college admissions, however, don't women far outdo men?
and...
quote: Young women in New York and several other large American cities working full time are now making more money than men
from the New York times. Not the most cogent thing I've ever said, but I do think that it is worth noting.
Posted by guinevererobin (Member # 10753) on :
quote:Another thing about the current climate in the western world is the sheer proliferation of toys that children are given. We we interested to discover that my second cousins, when visiting us, didn't know how to play where they had no or few prefabricated toys, like at our cottage.
Yeah... I'm stunned by the complexity of toys today, all the crap you have to buy to continue "playing". When I have kids, they're getting the basics - Legos, playdoh, stuffed animals, art stuff. They can feel all underprivileged when they visit their friend's houses, but at least they'll have imaginations. Boredom is good for kids. Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I never thought there'd be a thread to share this little tidbit about my childhood...but what the heck, it's perfectly relevant.
When I was a kid, I played with flutter ponies, which were My Little Ponies with wings. They made excellent battle steeds for my GI Joes. But ever since then and to this day I get berated by my older brother for playing with 'girl toys' and 'acting gay.' There's plenty of work to be done on both sides of the gender aisle.
My younger brothers did a similar things with Ninja Turtles and My Little Ponies. Except they also added the storyline that the Barbies were the Ninja Turtles' girlfriends.
I did tease them a bit, but they were my younger brothers. I teased them about everything, and they did the same to me.
My play with Barbies was a little bit...unorthodox. I'd take them out in their car to a hill that I liked to play on, and they'd be lost in the wilderness. I could have played that with any sort of toy figures, but Barbies were what I had. I had no interest in changing their clothes or brushing their hair.
--Mel
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*hugs CT*
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:My play with Barbies was a little bit...unorthodox
I took the head off one of my sister's barbies, strung it on monofilament, and ran it over a nail in the door jamb to our family room. Then I made the head dance while I sang (from behind the door) "I... ain't got no body!"
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I always buy kids the toys that give the most play value for the buck, and those are usually building toys (because you can build a million different things with the same toy) like blocks, legos, knex, no-ends, or else creativity toys like paint sets, markers, crayons, art supplies, construction paper, play-dough, and so on. The old Fisher-Price little people sets were fantastic. The new ones suck, though. I regret the loss of the old ones. I still have a complete set of old ones (farm, castle, garage, marina, airport, zoo, convenience store with car wash, home, school, playground) and kids LOVE it.
Tonka trucks are also great fun, and can be played with a million different ways. You can ride them or dig in the dirt with them or even (as my niece did) take your Barbies on a hay ride.
I also loved things like train sets and rockets. There's a lot of fun to be had doing those things.
Of course, we played outside all the time too. Wading in the creek was a favorite, which involved catching little animals and letting them go as well. Damming the creek and seeing how big a pool we could make before it inevitably washed away was another thing we loved. Mud holds best if it has a structure of pinestraw and sticks to reinforce it. Building forts in the woods and playing in them, building treehouses, planting flowers or vegetables and waiting for them to grow, feeding the birds and wild animals and watching them eat, playing impromptu rpgs (before they were called that), building a boat and launching it on the creek only to have it capsize instantly and eventually retire it for use as a wading pool, all those games we amused ourselves with forever. I do sort of feel sorry for kids today, that they aren't allowed to do a lot of those things.
Being outdoors is so amazing. I would go crazy when it stormed, as a kid, and I wasn't allowed to go outside. I would get cabin fever and go nuts. It's really sad that we spend so little time out of doors as we do now, I think.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:My play with Barbies was a little bit...unorthodox
I took the head off one of my sister's barbies, strung it on monofilament, and ran it over a nail in the door jamb to our family room. Then I made the head dance while I sang (from behind the door) "I... ain't got no body!"
LOL
I just cut their hair off and had them get kidnapped by aliens. My Cabbage Patch dolls were kidnapped by aliens, too. Come to think of it, very few of my toys didn't get abducted at one point or another.
quote:Originally posted by guinevererobin:
quote:Another thing about the current climate in the western world is the sheer proliferation of toys that children are given. We we interested to discover that my second cousins, when visiting us, didn't know how to play where they had no or few prefabricated toys, like at our cottage.
Yeah... I'm stunned by the complexity of toys today, all the crap you have to buy to continue "playing". When I have kids, they're getting the basics - Legos, playdoh, stuffed animals, art stuff. They can feel all underprivileged when they visit their friend's houses, but at least they'll have imaginations. Boredom is good for kids.
Don't be so sure what you're going to do when you have kids until you actually do. The truth is, these toys aren't for kids, they're for parents. We justify it by saying to ourselves that they're for our kids, but they're not. Personally, I think I've struck a reasonable balance on toys (actually, when I go to other kids' homes I sometimes wonder if my son is deprived) but I get bored with the same old things all the time and I do enjoy having new things to play with.
The trick with toys is to get the stuff that can be played with in many ways and/or will last through many stages of development. I like the Little People sets because they can play with them for years and they give you an outlet for imaginative play, which can be a new adventure every day.
And then sometimes I buy an electronic talking puzzle or talking refrigerator magnets. Oh well...
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:And he was all, "Hey there, fellow. How's it going?" When we told him she was a girl, he shifted gears almost unconsciously, and started saying, "Oh, aren't you the cutest thing." Now notice, when he thought she was a boy, he asked her questions, trying to elicit answers. When he thought she was a girl, he just said stuff about her appearance.
Wild guess, but isn't it possible that he felt like a jerk for more or less insulting her and thought maybe the best rapid response would be to make sure he didn't hurt her feelings? Maybe it was being a little sexist, but it was also being thoughtful as well, or at least considerate.
Actually, it looked like he didn't even notice that he acted differently towards her before and after we told him. Like it was completely unconscious.
Perhaps he didn't notice that he acted differently because he wasn't acting differently. Maybe he knew she was a girl all along (she was wearing a dress after all) and any perceived change in his attitude was due to you assuming prejudice in a situation that was ambiguous. It's much easier to identify prejudice when a person is constantly looking for it.
I'm not even sure that was an example of prejudice. It seems to me to be more a case of stereotyping, and stereotyping is still a rather effective way of categorizing people that you've never met before.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Christine, Little People are so great! Every kid I've ever known from newborn to age 18 and above loves those things.
We have this Fisher Price school bus that's a toddler's ride toy. It's indestructible and my nieces rode it until they were teenagers and no longer able to hold their knees from dragging the ground. So ride toys, big wheels, trikes, bikes, skates, those make great toys too with a lot of play hours for the price.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It strikes me, looking at that list of my favorite toys, that building things was obviously always my favorite thing to do. No wonder I'm an engineer.
Another thing was on Halloween we made our own costumes, and weren't limited to what was on offer in the stores. The most we might do is buy a 15 cent mask. That was so much more fun than just buying a costume! I feel totally sorry sometimes for the overprivileged next generation. They miss out on so much that's fun!
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I learned about the existence of sex from, no kidding, the neighbor girl and her demonstrations with Barbie and Ken. I didn't have a lot of toys - just a couple of dolls, and then lots of books.
I was completely flumoxxed as to why she kept making Ken's head go up Barbie's shirt. It made no sense to me at all. I'd never even heard of that. I was nine or ten.
So all those explosions of pink girly commercials? THAT's what I think of.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I'm not even sure that was an example of prejudice. It seems to me to be more a case of stereotyping, and stereotyping is still a rather effective way of categorizing people that you've never met before.
I...yeah, not gonna bother.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
Dagonee- my siblings doing stuff like that is why I still have a fear of Barbie dolls and absolutely no desire to play with them. The idea of having them in my home (for my daughter) kinda freaks me out. Bin is 8 months old now and she LOVES Little People. My husband could not understand why an 8 month old would want little people and within a day of giving them to her, he admitted he was wrong. And it isn't just a new toy thing, she has been loving that set for a few weeks now.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I had one Barbie. And Captain America. And some Star Trek action figures. Including Geordi...who ended up without a visor and with only one arm. I don't remember why; I think he was on an Away Mission and fell off a cliff...and I wanted to see what he looked like under the visor.
-pH
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I had a Cindy- a cheap knockoff of Barbie. She didn't get much play time though. I guess she wasn't my favourite.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(Thanks, Javert Hugo. *hug*)
quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: CT, I'm watching my own mother's slow decline with the same idea in mind. Until she's a danger to others, she get full self-determination. I try to persuade but I don't do anything she doesn't agree to and believe in. I'm not looking forward to how heartbreaking it will be to take away her agency, should that ever happen. I think your mom (as determined a lady as she was) must have felt that blessing very much, that she died with hers still intact.
I will keep you in my thoughts, Tatiana. One of my greatest comforts at this stage in my life is knowing that I will never have to go through losing either of my parents again. Odd, but true. For all of my adulthood, I anticipated dealing with her decline and death as probably the greatest challenge of my life.
Another complicating factor for me was that I knew her brain was riddled with metasteses and that the morphine levels were so high she was not really herself any more. I watched her numbingly lift her fingers from her other cupped hand to her mouth, mimicking the taking of more morphine pills -- but her hand and fingers were empty. She went through the motions of gulping and swallowing without knowing that her mouth was empty. In that state, I couldn't tell what were really her considered choices and what were just impulses or fever dreams -- and none of this putting others at risk, none of it, was consistent with how she had lived her entire life up to those last few months.
It was so hard to do, to be there as witness and try to support her, while still figuring out whether she was acting as an agent still, or more as in a coma or sleepwalking. I dreaded (dreaded!) harming her by taking away her autonomy, but I feared letting her down by not doing it, you know? There were moments of clarity, including once when she looked straight at me (my Mother again, looking out of those eyes, present) and said, "Oh Sara, I know how hard it is to be the one there, and how much easier it is for those who stay further away. Thank you." (She'd cared for her father and mother as each of them died, and as a nurse, she shielded them from the parts they (and he) wanted them shielded from.)
Any mention of hospice was taken by her as an indication that whomever said it wanted her to die. This included her oncologist. My job -- my explicit job, as I held legal power of attorney and power of healthcare determination -- was to act as her voice when she could not speak and insist that everything remotely possible be done in order to keep her alive for every possible minute. These were her expressed, exact wishes.
So though I didn't have to do CPR since the paramedics arrived as her heart stopped, I did have to insist that they resuscitate her. And I went in the ambulance, and heard and saw her ribs crack with compressions, and I had to insist that they intubate her, too. And by God, I did it. I did it. I don't know how, and it was like chewing glass, but I did it for her, and she died anyway. But I didn't let her down.
If you ever, ever want to talk, you should feel free to call. I'll make sure you have my current address and my phone number today.
Olivet listened to me and comforted me through my mother's last time, and I swear that was as close as I could ever come to see the face of the Holy in another human being. [My husband was there, and all I could want from him and more, but I think Livvy became my own Mother for a while. It was inexplicable but pure grace to me.]
quote:It's also complicated by my understanding that I forced Drive By to accept medicine (for her asthma and bowel inflammation) which was actually making her worse (her Cushings, which we didn't realize she had yet), and she knew it, and tried to tell me, but I wouldn't listen. I hope she will forgive me for that. I feel very much that I wronged her terribly. I had the power to force her to take the treatment that I thought was best for her, but I didn't have the understanding to know what I was really doing. I think our humility and awe in the face of the unbreachable wall of ignorance that separates us from other beings must always keep us treading very carefully in matters of agency and self-determination.
I am so sorry you carry that with you. I can't think any creature who could love someone would not forgive this without a thought, truly I can't. I imagine as far as she can conceive the harm to her, she surely conceives the harm to you and would want to take that from you.
Humility and awe indeed. I think at the deepest heart of my decision not to have children was understanding that I might not have it in me to be a physician and take this stance with my own kids, as well as for my mother. I don't know how parents do it, but I'm sure they don't know how they can do it until they have to. But it does come sometimes, and when it does, it is very very fearsome and hard.
I had other reasons not to have kids -- my health, my first husband's unwillingness to, my second husband's age and health, and the fact that I already had a grandchild through his kids by then. Honestly, though, I think it would tear me apart.
Parents! Bless you and bless you again.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Well, since I feel the need to present my credentials first, I'll say that I'm a woman, and a mother of three girls (one of whom plays chess and enjoys it) and I found it very funny, and took it as a mocking portrayal of the ridiculous marketing strategies of certain companies who market fluffy pink toys to girls.
Edit: Yikes,I didn't realize how much the thread had wandered afield. After CT's serious post, I feel mine is now innapropriate. Sorry.
[ September 11, 2007, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert:
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ----- * The joke is this:
Q: How many Wellesley girls does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: It's Wellesley women, and it's not funny!
Reminds me of a joke a buddy told me.
Q: What do you call a black man who makes his living flying planes?
A: A pilot, you racist!
I've always been a fan of that one.
Curse my lack of internet until Thursdsay! And curse that I don't have headphones to use while at school, the only place with internet for me.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I highly recommend to all parents Consuming Kids: The Hostile Takeover of Childhood, by Susan Linn. I read it before Aerin was born and it has served me in good stead, especially when having to refuse some gifts from well-meaning friends and family and when having to justify the fact that Aerin only watches 15 minutes of commercial-free t.v. per day (Peep and the Big Wide World - I highly recommend it).
I thought the commerical was moderately funny. To me, the message that the people who actually do market like that to little girls are jerks came through loud and clear. They might have done it with a bit more finesse, though, to better make their point.
CT, I'm so sorry for what you're going through and what you've been through. We had a somewhat similar situation with my grandmother (she refused to use her walker despite 3 broken hips, a broken thigh, broken knees, and countless broken toes). Both my mother and my daughter have been critically ill and it was much, much harder for me with Aerin. One of the reasons I'm so compulsive (even more compulsive than usual) with researching every single thing about any condition she has is that I don't feel I can make informed decisions about her care if I don't have and understand all the information. Thank goodness for our patient doctors and surgeons whom I trust and for the internet and for the education that enables me to understand what I read.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
[Thanks for the note, Mrs. M, and all power and grace to you and yours. I've watched you from afar with no shortage of admiration.]
quote:Originally posted by Belle: Edit: Yikes,I didn't realize how much the thread had wandered afield. After CT's serious post, I feel mine is now innapropriate. Sorry.
Egads, no!
That was a side topic. If we had branching threads, it would have branched. Please, no worries -- there isn't a way to separate out the conversations once started within threads, and you must just sort of delicately and kindly look the other way and carry on.
It is my fault for wandering in and having my emotional blubberout all over a simpler topic. I've just been a real mess tonight & this morning, but this helped tremendously.
Belle, as a Lady, surely you recall what to do when another woman inappropriately, hmmm, makes an embarrassing noise at the table? Out of courtesy, you carry on. Please do!
([embarrassed little aside] and I've very done now, than you all very much, really and truly this time, and I'll start another thread if I need to, promise, no further now, all done, thank you, carry on![/embarrassed little aside] )
[ September 11, 2007, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
If you have a neighbor (or even a sibling) you are mad at, give their little girl a Barbie doll - without a wardrobe. Or their little boy ONE only of some Collect-Em-All type toy. Or you could just give them some battery operated toy that makes a lot of noise. (I’m so looking forward to when I’m a grandpa.)
But that is not really what I wanted to mention . . .
“Humor is almost always anger with its makeup on.” (“Bag or Bones” Steven King pp 149)
I grew up with contempt for gender stereotypes.
My parents taught me lots of things like a love for music and art, archery, how to cook, take care of infants and small children, to sew, repair bicycles and cars and generally how to use tools and build things. So I grew up with a pretty wide range of interests.
(That is probably why I can enjoy movies like “An Affair to Remember” “Shall We Dance” and Jane Austen movies and then turn right around and get a big kick out of watching Arnold Schwarzenegger and Bruce Willis blow things up.)
I also grew up with feelings of hostility toward any person, culture, or tradition that tried to tell me what I OUGHT to be interested in. So, wouldn’t you know it, I ended up attending High School where the attitude of the prevailing sub-culture in town was that, for instance, there are certain musical instruments that boys should not play. Flutes and clarinets were for girls. Better yet boys would be better off not even being in band and choir. They should be playing sports, working on cars, and, in the fall, out in the woods killing things.
I would be hard pressed to point to any overt disdain expressed by the men and their sons I was surrounded by. But the tone was definitely there. Maybe it was that they didn’t seem to take any interest in you unless you were “into” one of the big four activities : sports, sports, hunting and cars. Oh and did I mention - sports? And that seemed to be all they ever wanted to talk about.
At any rate, that is probably why I find funny, in a hostile sort of way, anything that ridicules gender stereotypes and the people who promote gender stereotypes.
And perhaps I have a lot of pent up anger left over and maybe that is why I like satire so much. Who knows?
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: I highly recommend to all parents Consuming Kids: The Hostile Takeover of Childhood, by Susan Linn. I read it before Aerin was born and it has served me in good stead, especially when having to refuse some gifts from well-meaning friends and family and when having to justify the fact that Aerin only watches 15 minutes of commercial-free t.v. per day (Peep and the Big Wide World - I highly recommend it).
You've piqued my curiosity -- which gifts do you refuse?
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Sometimes I wonder what Magic: The Gathering would be like if the game played exactly the same but was based on My Little Pony (or an equivalent original fantasy world).
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:At any rate, that is probably why I find funny, in a hostile sort of way, anything that ridicules gender stereotypes and the people who promote gender stereotypes.
You'd find MAD magazine (at least any issue before 2001) hilariously funny in a hostile sort of way. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Sometimes I wonder what Magic: The Gathering would be like if the game played exactly the same but was based on My Little Pony (or an equivalent original fantasy world).
The girls depicted in the cards would certainly be less buxom.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samuel Bush: If you have a neighbor (or even a sibling) you are mad at, give their little girl a Barbie doll - without a wardrobe. Or their little boy ONE only of some Collect-Em-All type toy. Or you could just give them some battery operated toy that makes a lot of noise. (I’m so looking forward to when I’m a grandpa.)
But that is not really what I wanted to mention . . .
“Humor is almost always anger with its makeup on.” (“Bag or Bones” Steven King pp 149)
I grew up with contempt for gender stereotypes.
And yet you use them in your first paragraph.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:You've piqued my curiosity -- which gifts do you refuse?
It hasn't been an issue for a while, since we have an Amazon wish list that we direct people to. But when Aerin was an infant, we had a big problem with people buying us toys that lit up or made electronic sounds/played music (we did allow things like rattles, etc.). I am a firm believer in the adage "Active toys make passive children." More importantly, overstimulation is harmful to preemie development.
Now we rarely allow anything co-branded (we do have a Funshine bear from my childhood and an Elmo bath puppet, but that's it). I will never, ever let a Bratz doll into my house. We still don't allow anything that lights up or beeps, etc. and we are still on the fence about American Girl dolls. We don't have use for books about Jesus or Christmas or Easter (I have Pentecostal family that made this an issue) and we're not doing the Tooth Fairy, so we don't want anything about that.
Plus, Aerin has Sensory Processing Disorder, so some toys will be useless for her.
My biggest problem has been convincing people that I'm not judging their parenting with my rules. They really don't have anything to do with any other family - these rules are what we have decided is best for ours. I don't think people are bad parents if their child watches more t.v. than Aerin or if they have 800 Dora toys, it's just not what's best for us. Our immediate and extended families have been the most difficult - our friends are all fine with our rules and have respected them to the letter.
Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
dkw posted:
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Samuel Bush: If you have a neighbor (or even a sibling) you are mad at, give their little girl a Barbie doll - without a wardrobe. Or their little boy ONE only of some Collect-Em-All type toy. Or you could just give them some battery operated toy that makes a lot of noise. (I’m so looking forward to when I’m a grandpa.)
But that is not really what I wanted to mention . . .
“Humor is almost always anger with its makeup on.” (“Bag or Bones” Steven King pp 149)
Yes, I kind of did, didn't I? Well, I meant it the other way. Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I find the very existence of Bratz dolls offensive.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
Sometimes I wonder what Magic: The Gathering would be like if the game played exactly the same but was based on My Little Pony (or an equivalent original fantasy world).
The girls depicted in the cards would certainly be less buxom.
I was thinking that all the creatures on the cards would be ponies or other cute animals, or "cute" looking monsters.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholar: I find the very existence of Bratz dolls offensive.
So do I.
Posted by Christine (Member # 8594) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M:
quote:You've piqued my curiosity -- which gifts do you refuse?
It hasn't been an issue for a while, since we have an Amazon wish list that we direct people to. But when Aerin was an infant, we had a big problem with people buying us toys that lit up or made electronic sounds/played music (we did allow things like rattles, etc.). I am a firm believer in the adage "Active toys make passive children." More importantly, overstimulation is harmful to preemie development.
Now we rarely allow anything co-branded (we do have a Funshine bear from my childhood and an Elmo bath puppet, but that's it). I will never, ever let a Bratz doll into my house. We still don't allow anything that lights up or beeps, etc. and we are still on the fence about American Girl dolls. We don't have use for books about Jesus or Christmas or Easter (I have Pentecostal family that made this an issue) and we're not doing the Tooth Fairy, so we don't want anything about that.
Plus, Aerin has Sensory Processing Disorder, so some toys will be useless for her.
My biggest problem has been convincing people that I'm not judging their parenting with my rules. They really don't have anything to do with any other family - these rules are what we have decided is best for ours. I don't think people are bad parents if their child watches more t.v. than Aerin or if they have 800 Dora toys, it's just not what's best for us. Our immediate and extended families have been the most difficult - our friends are all fine with our rules and have respected them to the letter.
Thanks for elaborating. I don't see any problems with your choices at all. I wish I could be as firm as you on the TV. I kind of got sucked in on that one. It started with one sing a-long every so often and then became once a day and then one in the morning and one in the afternoon and then I introduced Shrek, which is an hour and a half...
It's hard to get away from toys that light up and beep, isn't it? They even make BOOKS light up and beat now! My parents got my son the most obnoxious choo choo book that made loud whistle noises as you read. (Every time you turn a page.) I snuck that book down to the basement storage just as soon as they left. I'm hoping they don't ask about it when they come this weekend.
Most of the Little People stuff that we love makes noises, but they're not necessary so we just don't put batteries in.
Anyway, I didn't draw a clear line in the sand like you did but I totally understand and have taken steps to minimize that stuff in my house, too.
We have spread the word that we are not interested in any V-Tech or Leap Frog products. No one seems upset by this.
I never thought much about branded toys. We've started collecting Thomas the Train but basically that's because everyone says it's the highest quality train set you can buy...the stuff you get if you want it to last.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
No tooth fairy?
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
Sometimes I wonder what Magic: The Gathering would be like if the game played exactly the same but was based on My Little Pony (or an equivalent original fantasy world).
The girls depicted in the cards would certainly be less buxom.
I was thinking that all the creatures on the cards would be ponies or other cute animals, or "cute" looking monsters.
My mom used to play Magic, but her favorite thing to do was make themed decks, especially things like "faeries" or "cute animals". This isn't to say that she didn't make other decks, too, but her favorites were generally atrociously bad and full of adorable or beautiful creatures.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
"Who's a cute little Night Shade? Who's a cute little Night Shade? You are, you are!"
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
I'm late in joining the thread, but I must say that I didn't find the mock commercial funny, but not because I found it offensive. I understand the satire, but it just made me uncomfortable.
For the same reason, I don't find a lot of Ben Stiller movies funny. It's all about an uncomfortable reality with no punch line. Being uncomfortable does not equate to humor.
It does remind me of a regular feature of Ms. magazine however. Inside the back cover is a section called "without comment" where they publish ads, without payment (or permission, I gather) just for their readership to ponder without any further prompting. It's an interesting exercise.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I just got back from chess club earlier tonight, so I found the thread pretty funny. What popped in my head, though, when thinking of a girl's version of chess--was one where instead of plain, boring, dry strategy, there's an aspect of communicating with your opponent in the game. I don't know quite how it would work, but it's those "positive" stereotypes of women being good communicators that I would build my girl's version of chess off of. I know that I've often imagined all the pieces as characters in a story--and they all have their own personalities and dialogues in my head. Maybe a certain pawn is especially brave or shy, and a knight might be very boring, and just sit in a corner. Combine this with the action of battle chess, with awesome fight scenes and some political drama between the queen and king, and you've got my oscar-winning screenplay.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I remember a few years back (I think it was sophomore year of high school) my school was playing in a League game and then suddenly the symphonic band started practicing outside. The funny thing was that the music began to seem to match my game. When I lifted my hand to move a piece suddenly the tempo of the music changed. My opponent and I started cracking up.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Now someone just needs to invent math for girls and we'll finally have gender equality. Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
Given the reactions of some people in this thread, I don't know if that comment will be taken too well
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by Threads: Given the reactions of some people in this thread, I don't know if that comment will be taken too well
So, you're saying we need some sort of "Humor for girls" thing first? *ducks*
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by MEC: I thought it was funny because I've never thought of chess as a boy's game. And making a version tailor made for girls is so ridiculous. I would like to say that if they turned it around and made a boy's version were the pieces smashed each other and stuff I would find it equally entertaining.
Now that you mention it, I'm kind of sad that they didn't, as that would be pretty funny. Don't forget the part where the king fires a plastic missile through a wall of semi-transparent blocks.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
If you think that sexism is a plight, it's a great loss to be so sensitive to the plight that you can't laugh at mockery of the absurdities of the people who perpetuate it.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
It is ironic at all that I am the one who made this topic and now we are discussing an article in Rhetoric about sexism in rap?
Posted by grammargoddess (Member # 10828) on :
I think the whole 70's idea of socialized gender is bunk conceived by people who don't have kids. There are innate differences between the genders, and they tend to gravitate toward one thing or the other(not that there isn't room for alot of leeway in behavior, though). I have a boy and two girls, and my boy naturally gravitated toward the vehicles rather than the dolls (we gave him both, and he played with both, he was just more interested in the trucks and balls. Our girls have been surrounded by dinosaurs, Spiderman and transformers and they still pick the dolls or stuffed animals. Now don't get me wrong, I think girls can (and should) develop their intellect in whatever way they choose. Boys can be booky and less athletic (see OSC) and girls can be mechanically-minded. But that doesn't make us the same, I'm sorry. I did find the SNL skit funny as satire. It always irritated me as a female gamer to see the "girls" games that they put out that all had to do with fashion and unicorns. I just ignored them and stuck with mortal kombat and final fantasy.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
quote:Now that you mention it, I'm kind of sad that they didn't, as that would be pretty funny. Don't forget the part where the king fires a plastic missile through a wall of semi-transparent blocks.
And the knights would have pumps that you can press over and over to build up pressure and race them.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I'll just recomment (not directed anywhere in particular, more to keep this ball in the court of current play) that it is possible to not find something funny without finding it gallingly offensive, and that some things which might be funny to a person in one circumstance (e.g., the all-too-often-true mother-in-law jokes) might not strike one as funny in a given context (e.g., when one's mother-in-law is likely dying at that moment).
Or not. It is an individual thing. I wouldn't object to others finding this commercial to be hilarious and cutting satire, but I wouldn't say I (or others) lacked in humor / was over-sensitive for being distracted enough by immediate related issues to have a "meh" response to it.
Were I in a mischievous frame of mind, I might offer possible explanations as to why others would find such a "meh" response to be offensive and/or problematic rather than just one of those things, but I won't -- it would be beyond usefulness to make such speculations, I think. But realize that this response is there, potentially, and may be worth reflecting on, too.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Were I in a mischievous frame of mind, I might offer possible explanations as to why others would find such a "meh" response to be offensive and/or problematic
I don't think anyone was offended or upset by the "meh" responses. The conversation seemed to be around "funny" vs. "offensive".
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Ah, well that certainly sheds some light. Thanks.
I still would wonder about why there was such strong reaction to other people having a strong reaction, if part of the critique was directly about the strength of that reaction?
Maybe it is just the sort of topic about which buttons are very easily pushed. I wouldn't be surprised if the topic of gender-related issues in general just was one of those sorts of topics.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I know when I find something funny and someone else find it offensive, it's possible to view that as a reflection on myself. Sort of a "they hate it, I like it, so they hate me" sort of thing. It can put me on the defensive.
That wasn't the case this time, though. In this instance I just didn't understand how it could be offensive which is why I asked for some elaboration.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I'm just happy that nobody's yet invented "House Cleaning for Boys." Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Amen
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I still would wonder about why there was such strong reaction to other people having a strong reaction, if part of the critique was directly about the strength of that reaction?
quote:I know when I find something funny and someone else find it offensive, it's possible to view that as a reflection on myself.
Especially when someone actually states that it is a reflection on those who found it funny. That's pretty much the only thing that gave me a "strong reaction" in this thread.
In other words, it had nothing to do with the judgment about the commercial, but rather the judgment about the people who found it funny. Especially given that the comment was based on a faulty underlying assumption.
There was also a disagreement with people who thought the intent of the commercial was sexist, but that wasn't a strong reaction so much as an intellectual disagreement.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I think the whole 70's idea of socialized gender is bunk conceived by people who don't have kids.
No, it's actually a very true phenomenon documented in excess for decades by people who are very smart and study this sort of thing professionally.
A significant quantity of 'gender-based' behavior is created from gender-based socialization, not genetics. It's almost assuredly the dominant force in determining why gals and guys act the way they do in most regards.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101: Now that you mention it, I'm kind of sad that they didn't, as that would be pretty funny. Don't forget the part where the king fires a plastic missile through a wall of semi-transparent blocks.
What, you mean BattleChess? The version for Chinese chess was especially amusing Posted by Hank (Member # 8916) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by erosomniac: [qb] I remember once when Tova was about a year and a half old, maybe two. We were at this pizza place, and there was a group of Scouts there. Tova took forever to get hair, so she looked like she had a crewcut. Of course, she was wearing a dress, too, which generally made it clear that she was a girl. But the Scout leader, while waiting for their pizza to come up, was walking around the room. And when he saw Tova, he thought she was a little boy. And he was all, "Hey there, fellow. How's it going?" When we told him she was a girl, he shifted gears almost unconsciously, and started saying, "Oh, aren't you the cutest thing." Now notice, when he thought she was a boy, he asked her questions, trying to elicit answers. When he thought she was a girl, he just said stuff about her appearance.
Um, did you ever think maybe he was just trying to make sure you were offended that he called your daughter a dude? If I were in the same situation, I would probably be thinking, "What can I say so that this mother isn't mad that I called her daughter a boy? Hmm...maybe if I say she's real cute, the mom won't be offended."
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
I guess you had to be there.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I've had people think bin was a boy and comment on his cuteness before- "you're going to be quite the lady's man" was the actual comment. So talking about appearance isn't gender specific.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
MattP and Dagonee, I can definitely see that. I often have the same reaction myself in similar circumstances. (Probably here, actually, but from the other side! )
My apologies if I contributed to that. I am having difficulties moderately myself from the perspective of The Other lately -- I am working on it feverishly, I assure you.
(My husband misses my "gentleness." I don't know where it went. )
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I know with 1 1/2 year old girl babies I expect them to sit there being cute and unable to talk, while with 1 1/2 year old boy babies, I want to discuss particle physics and general relativity.
It's really frustrating when I guess wrong, because I already had a great question about gravitons, and I'm stuck commenting on bow fashion. Lame!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
It is not uncommon for neutrally-dressed babies identified as girls to receive comments on their aesthetic appearance ("cute," "pretty," "beautiful") more often than the same babies identified as boys, who commonly receive comments on vigor and activity ("strong," "healthy").
There is research on this, although I think the latest research shows the disparity in treatment by adults to infants is markedly less than it used to be (but disturbingly, children treated otherwise gender-neutral-defined-infants identified as boys or girls much more disparately than the most recently-studied adults).
I can look up the research, if it would make a difference to somebody.
---
Edited to add: The trend of disparity has been studied. We as individuals may be very different from the norm, or we may not be fully aware of our own similarities to the norm in this matter. I often catch myself commenting on a baby girl's appearance, much more often than I do a baby boy's. I consciously try to consider this now when making such comments.
quote:Originally posted by scholar: I've had people think bin was a boy and comment on his cuteness before- "you're going to be quite the lady's man" was the actual comment. So talking about appearance isn't gender specific.
scholar, I think the point being made is not that it doesn't ever happen, but that the relative frequency of the different foci of comments significantly differs, based on presumed sex of the infant.
One counterexample wouldn't disprove that point, and neither would several, for that matter. Evidence to the contrary would more accurately be presented as rates of comments on a group of presumed girls as versus a group of presumed boys -- the important part is not the individual data points, but the trend (at least for the issue at hand, I think).
[ September 16, 2007, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Maybe Bin is just a really attractive kid so it's the first thing people notice? Let's face it, if someone's kid is ugly, you're gonna look for something else to say.
As for the generalities, well, I can't help you there. I went to high school for four years and had most of my classes with the same 30 kids. Our numbers were the same in all our classes: English, math, science, all of it. So it was a surprise in college to suddenly be surrounded by guys in my math classes. Either UF has more men than women in general, or somewhere that gender bias kicked in and the women didn't want to take the classes anymore. (Or never did in the first place, unlike my high school.)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:My apologies if I contributed to that.
You didn't contribute to that at all.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:My play with Barbies was a little bit...unorthodox
I took the head off one of my sister's barbies, strung it on monofilament, and ran it over a nail in the door jamb to our family room. Then I made the head dance while I sang (from behind the door) "I... ain't got no body!"
I had one Barbie, much against my Mum's wishes. (I was given it as a birthday present).
Within 6 months of having it, I had sheared it's hair, decapitated it, and buried it's head in a separate position to it's body. (What? It was a war. Barbie lost.)
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.:
Sometimes I wonder what Magic: The Gathering would be like if the game played exactly the same but was based on My Little Pony (or an equivalent original fantasy world).
The girls depicted in the cards would certainly be less buxom.
I was thinking that all the creatures on the cards would be ponies or other cute animals, or "cute" looking monsters.
My mom used to play Magic, but her favorite thing to do was make themed decks, especially things like "faeries" or "cute animals". This isn't to say that she didn't make other decks, too, but her favorites were generally atrociously bad and full of adorable or beautiful creatures.
I gotta say, that comment made my day, your mom is officially awesome.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I had the experience, too, of giving the kind of toys I love best (building toys, trains, hot wheels, tonka trucks, skates, bikes, trikes, rockets, electronics, computers) to my nieces with mixed results. Katie gave her barbies hayrides in the tonka truck. They built a puppet theater out of their no-ends, usually, or a house, not a fort from which to carry out war strategies.
But then Mary LOVED computers from the time she was less than 2 and couldn't even sit by herself in the chair without help. She adored it and learned her alphabet at age 2 from a Mickey Mouse game. But her mom discouraged it strenuously. Mary was really into science but her mom discouraged that too. I tried to give her science toys but her mom found a way to prevent her from doing them. She put the computer in a dark corner of the basement away from the life of the family. She didn't allow us to move the encyclopedia downstairs (this was pre-wikipedia) to make playing Carmen Sandiego possible. Every way I tried to encourage the interests Mary had in the things I liked, she squashed.
Things like that really are powerful influences. Her mom talked her into taking the easier math in high school, and now she's talked her out of being a doctor, saying it would be too hard for her. Mary's smart and she makes all As at a really challenging school, so I don't get that.
As a female in engineering, I attest that it takes two qualities to be successful. First you have to have the engineering ability, and enjoy doing it. Secondly, though, and more importantly, you have to be able to ignore all the people who try to steer you out of it. Even when you get hired, you have to resist your boss's and everyone else's tendency to push you into a soft job, one where you don't get dirty, or very involved in what's going on. One that keeps you far away from the bread and butter of the company's business. In other words, a girl job.
What I hope to accomplish in my career is to make it possible for girls with only the first of those two qualities to be successful in engineering. I want the idea of a female engineer, one who fully participates in all aspects of the engineering work going forward, to seem normal and right to those I work with.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I'm probably part of the problem, but I'm better than the previous generation and I'm trying. From the day I could put real clothes on Aerin, I've dressed her very femininely. I put her in headbands until she had enough hair for ribbons. She has very blue eyes, but I didn't put her in anything blue until her hair was long enough for blue bows. No one has ever mistaken her for a boy and I would have been upset if they had. She has a wardrobe that even I'm embarassed by, which includes 4 tutus.
However, I'm pretty sure she's going to be a scientist and I couldn't be more thrilled. I call her my little engineer - she approaches her toys as things to be figured out. She's doing 4-year-old puzzles. Her play is very focused. I can't imagine ever discouraging her from being a doctor, if that's what she wants. I've also gotten her Legos and toy cars (albeit girlie ones).
I do have to mention that no one actively discouraged me from going into science or from choosing to have a career, but there was a very strong message sent about what was considered successful by my family and the community in which I grew up. I had a friend my freshman year of high school who was very bright, but unmotivated. She dropped all of her Honors classes and her parents didn't say a word. She struggled with her weight and her mother was all over her, to the point where we stopped being friends because her mother was always comparing her appearance to mine. My engagement to Andrew got more praise than any academic achievement ever did. People oohed and aahed over my ring, but no one cared about my senior thesis. I grew up being told not to worry my pretty head about things. Literally.
BTW, I love chess and was secure and popular enough my junior year of high school to get the entire school on a chess craze and beat all the boys.
Posted by guinevererobin (Member # 10753) on :
quote:I'm probably part of the problem, but I'm better than the previous generation and I'm trying. From the day I could put real clothes on Aerin, I've dressed her very femininely. I put her in headbands until she had enough hair for ribbons. She has very blue eyes, but I didn't put her in anything blue until her hair was long enough for blue bows. No one has ever mistaken her for a boy and I would have been upset if they had. She has a wardrobe that even I'm embarassed by, which includes 4 tutus.
As long as you're encouraging her to develop her interests, whether they fall into "masculine" or "feminine" stereotypes, I don't see anything wrong with a girlie wardrobe.
I grew up a a tomboy, and my dad put a ton of pressure on me to do well in math and science and to compete with the guys in my activities, whereas my mom was more, "whatever you want to do, sweetie". She was kind of a grown-up tomboy herself and didn't teach me anything about fashion or being "girlie". Well, I work in a "Boy job" and I still compete with the guys all the time, but I love being as girlie as possible on the weekends. When I have daughters I hope I can teach them both - how to be the girlie-girl who can hang with the boys.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I thought it was funny and sad. Funny, because toy marketers think girls will only play with things that are pink and have long hair. Sad, because they make it true.
edit: And also, funny, because the theme song singers just repeat everything that gets said. "Night of dancing!" HAHAHA.
And once again, PSI realizes that a thread has more than one page.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
Well, Bin is exceptionally cute. I feel like we will have real gender equality when I can wear a dress and still be taken seriously. I had a female prof who said I am far too feminine in my manners and dress and need to eliminate that in order to succeed. She encouraged another women to work on deepening her voice so it would be more masculine in tone. At this point, I must admit, I would strongly discourage Bin from science. Not because she is a girl, but because science sucks!!!! I am in my sixth year as a phd student and Monday my advisor and I are meeting to discuss changing my thesis topic AGAIN. Engineering would be fine as would medicine. English major would take some convincing. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholar: I had a female prof who said I am far too feminine in my manners and dress and need to eliminate that in order to succeed.
That is a right shame.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
Scholar are you male or female? At first I thought you were male, but then I realized your prof was encouraging you and another woman to be manlier, so I wasn't clear if she just thinks women should be manlier, or if she thinks everyone should be manlier.
If you're female, then I think we will have real gender equality when I can wear a dress and be taken seriously.
Edited for a typo.
[ September 16, 2007, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Dan_Frank ]
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I'm a bit of a tomboy, but I find it disturbing that a female professor was encouraging other women to act more masculine. I don't think people should have to alter their behavior like that to be taken seriously.
I kind of do think that gendered behaviors are somewhat a result of socialization. I was really not a feminine little girl at all. Much of what I played with was gender-neutral, like legos and books. I didn't really have dolls (and when I did play with them, I generally pretended to be a doctor rather than playing house). I've learned some more feminine behaviors since then, but I had to deliberately learn them, and in some cases I had to push kind of hard against what felt natural. I'm willing to accept the idea that some stereotypical behaviors may be hardwired, but I strongly suspect that socialization plays an important role.
Also, those of you who have facebook need to add facebook chess and play with me.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
What's your facebook profile?
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I'm a female.
And I would agree that a man should be able to wear a dress in any circumstance it would be appropriate for a woman to wear one .
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I'm all for equality, but I don't think there's any need to throw out gender differences either. I don't see a problem with genders having different clothing styles. I like that women are pretty.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
A man in a kilt is sexy. Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholar: A man in a kilt is sexy.
Agreed. However, for all the joking about kilts being skirts for men, they are not at all feminine. Trust me, I wear them. And when you go to Celebrate Your Heritage type dance festivals, and you are surrounded by Mexican women in their long, flowey, colorful skirts, and Indian women in their gorgeous saris, and all the other women seem to be wearing ultra feminine costumes, me in my kilt that flattens out all my curves and emphasizes my big strong calves . . . . Yeah, not feminine at all.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
I would wear a kilt by they are ridiculously expensive.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I just ordered a kilt last weekend. It's arriving November 1st! I'm gonna be so sexy, in a very masculine way Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Amilia, are you a man or a woman? I thought only men wore kilts.
Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
I'm a woman. I'm also a Highland dancer. While you are generally correct (only men wear kilts), female Highland dancers and women in pipe bands are the exceptions. My point was just that it does feel like cross-dressing for all there's no inseam to a kilt.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I was in a pipe band. I'm a woman. I wore a kilt, as did our dancers. We also all (boys and girls) had to change in the same room (the music room)....so I am now an expert at changing clothes while revealing nothing!
-pH
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Is that a teachable skill? You may be onto the next fad .
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote:Belle, as a Lady, surely you recall what to do when another woman inappropriately, hmmm, makes an embarrassing noise at the table? Out of courtesy, you carry on. Please do!
This is propogating the same problem. If we were liberated, we should respond by giving the farter a high five and asking if we can light the next one on fire.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
quote:And I would agree that a man should be able to wear a dress in any circumstance it would be appropriate for a woman to wear one.
Man, I would love to be able to wear a muumuu on a hot summer day. Just one article of clothing that's light and airy and doesn't make me sweat. Unfortunately, working on a job site, that might cause some unruliness.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I am now an expert at changing clothes while revealing nothing!
Are you sure? You should arrange for independent testing of this claim.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I think by lady, CT meant having class, not being female.
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