This article in Time trounces traditional masculinity.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Only for a given definition of masculinity, which I reject.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
It seems that the only men who are eager to sing praises about being stay at home dads are underemployed or unemployable men eager to rationalize their job status, because being the breadwinner of the family IS a masculine trait and not one that men would give away unreluctant.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
I deeply disagree with that.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
As do I. The stay at home dads who I know are wonderful men and wonderful fathers.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: I deeply disagree with that.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
*patpat* We can still be friends.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
I would love to be a stay at home dad.
msquared
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: As do I. The stay at home dads who I know are wonderful men and wonderful fathers.
I don't think I suggested otherwise. Men forced to be stay at home dads by economic necessity may indeed be wonderful in all sorts of ways but to represent their status as being an ideal that trumps traditional masculinity strikes me as wishy-washy gender-as-social-construct liberal fantasy.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Good article, though I still think society has a LONG way to go in accepting non-traditional male roles. My personal opinion is that for the last 30 years we've been focused on women, and probably with good reason, since they didn't have the same options as men, but now I think women, by and large, can do almost whatever they want. Men can still do whatever they want...professionally, but when it comes to the home there's a huge stigma still attached.
As the article says, men don't have the same benefits as women when it comes to time off for kids, men are given lower priority when divorce happens and custody must be decided, men in pop culture are portrayed as stupid, inept, and oafish. And I have to wonder how this is really different from 30 years ago when women were portrayed as incapable of doing anything other than running a home.
Times have changed, and men and women have changed, but I think that we think our progress towards being an accepting society is far greater than it actually is.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I didn't get what the_Somalian got out of the article at all. Or if it does "trounce" traditional masculinity I don't view it as a bad thing.
It's all in how you define "traditional masculinity" I guess, considering that they cite a study saying that these fathers often actually get *more* sex from their partners.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Do you think "traditional masculinity" is good Somailian?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
And, to make it more personal, are you aware that our very own Papa Moose is a stay at home dad?
Knowing a particular person "is" something rather than having the article reference a nameless blob, makes me evaluate my perspectives and opinions on a piece a bit differently.
AJ
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the_Somalian:
quote:Originally posted by dkw: As do I. The stay at home dads who I know are wonderful men and wonderful fathers.
I don't think I suggested otherwise. Men forced to be stay at home dads by economic necessity may indeed be wonderful in all sorts of ways but to represent their status as being an ideal that trumpts traditional masculinity strikes me as wishy-washy gender-as-social-construct liberal fantasy.
Three of the men I am talking about are not "forced to be stay at home dads by economic necessity." They chose to do so. One couple is alternating every 2 years who works and who stays home. One chose it because the mother's job had more flexible hours so they could have more familily time with her as the breadwinner than if he was. And the other because he's always wanted kids and wanted to be a full-time parent and his wife likes her job and was willing to support the family so that he could stay home with the kids.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: I didn't get what the_Somalian got out of the article at all. Or if it does "trounce" traditional masculinity I don't view it as a bad thing.
It's all in how you define "traditional masculinity" I guess, considering that they cite a study saying that these fathers often actually get *more* sex from their partners.
AJ
Yeah, but that increase in the frequency in sex is attached to a more dual role partnership between the mom and dad, whereas I'd argue traditional roles put the man at work and the women in the kitchen and laundry room. Men were never involved in the Sphere of Domesticity before. I think the study is suggesting that it's man's entry into that Sphere that has taken the pressure and stress of of women and made them more relaxed and recepting to increased frequency of sex.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I would much rather children have their dad stay at home and take care of them, than have them dropped daily at a day care facility.
Not that I'm dissin' anyone who uses day care (I have in the past, as well). I'm just saying having parental care, by either parent, and allowing the youngsters to stay in their own home, I still think is far superior. As well as the bonding that it allows for the family.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: I'd argue traditional roles put the man at work
If you really want to go back prior to 1900, Lyrhawn, "traditional" roles actually put the kids working WITH their fathers (in an agrarian community - farming or shopkeepers, etc.) The whole family worked together.
The "dads go off to work outside the home" is relatively new.
FG
[ October 09, 2007, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
:points at Farmgirl's last, most excellent post:
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl:
quote: I'd argue traditional roles put the man at work a
If you really want to go back prior to 1900, Lyrhawn, "traditional" roles actually put the kids working WITH their fathers (in an agrarian community - farming or shopkeepers, etc.) The whole family worked together.
The "dads go off to work outside the home" is relatively new.
FG
Well if you want to go back even further than that, in ancient Sparta, men didn't even live with their wives until very late in life, and children after the age of eight or nine were raised by the state until they entered the traditional gender role set down for them. Spartan women were arguably the most liberated of the ancient world, being schooled in finance, and usually owning the majority of the "family" finances whereas men mostly lived in barracks with other men while the slaves worked the fields. Not entirely sure on the traditional role of men in Helot society, but I'd imagine it's dramatically different.
I should have specified what I said with traditional 20th century roles, since the value of what is "traditional" can change from generation to generation and from society to society, or even regionally.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
So if I wanted to go with the values of say... the time of Abraham of the Bible .. you would consider that a WRONG role?
Or are you (Lyrhawn) actually not speaking as opposition to the idea - just stating the fact of current traditions, not so much in support of them?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I read this article yesterday, try as I might, I cannot see any basis outside of tradition for fathers to always be the bread winner.
The study that suggests that testosterone levels drop after marriage was kinda facinating to me.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Am I alone in thinking that men who spend time with their children are really appealing and rather sexy? (providing that it's my man and not someone else's though.) I don't like most aspects of traditional masculinity. It makes me brisle in annoyance for the most part. I think I am a minority in my idea of appealing men...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Haven't you come out as bi? I think that pretty much guarantees your minority status. Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Man, I can not wait to be a stay at home dad. There is no way I'll make more than the lady I'll probably end up marrying, I can't stand having a traditional job, and she absolutely loves hers. Plus I love kids and I want to be the one that teaches them. That's just pure selfishness on my part though.
Although I probably will have a home-office job. Something that will only require sparse work for the majority of the year and intense work for about a week. Festival promotion, probably. Hmm, I guess it would be hard for me if I weren't helping with income at all. I'm just an ape in man's clothes after all.
quote:being the breadwinner of the family IS a masculine trait and not one that men would give away unreluctant.
I give it away with no reluctance at all! Take this cup from my lips!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Haven't you come out as bi? I think that pretty much guarantees your minority status.
I am not sure if I am totally bi, but I am not sure what I am... Weird prehaps... The sort of masculinity in the show Mad Men or in the Sopranos makes me shudder in horror. Especially when that dood on Mad Men was talking about wanting to shoot deer, have some woman cook it up for him and then eat it without sharing any with her. He could at least give her a piece. There's no way I'd want to be with a man who goes around shooting deer when there's perfectly good meet at the store. i could see if he was using a spear and hunting like a wolf and not killing the best and strongest beasts, but noooooooo. I fail to see how that is the slightest bit sexy or appealing.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
My son also wants to help with home-teaching and raising his kids (if he ever finds a woman to marry and has kids). That is why he's working so hard on trying to establish his goals now (getting into livestock and the agrarian lifestyle) to hopefully be able to work at home (there are many ranchers and farmers in the area that do).
I think it is a noble goal.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I think so too. Men should spend more time with their kids. *never really got to spend enough time with my own father, but i think that's because I reminded him of my mother, and she said I reminded her of him*
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I must say that while I'm struggling to define my career goals at the moment, my identity is tied to my family. I'm a husband and a father first and foremost. That's a big stress-relief for me. I think it's healthy. I still get asked "What do you do?" a lot when I'm first meeting someone. I'm always tempted to answer "I'm a family man" because that's where my heart is. Funny how we still define each other by our jobs, though. I think that's the level at which a lot of men interact with each other. You know what they do, and you know how to approach them.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: I would much rather children have their dad stay at home and take care of them, than have them dropped daily at a day care facility.
Not that I'm dissin' anyone who uses day care (I have in the past, as well). I'm just saying having parental care, by either parent, and allowing the youngsters to stay in their own home, I still think is far superior. As well as the bonding that it allows for the family.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. And I agree with Syn that men who spend time with their kids are quite attractive. I'm pretty unbending in my conviction that both parents have a serious responsibility to their kids and a father's role is far more than just making money. I'm currently with a guy who would love to stay home with any future children (if we could afford it), and I love that. I don't do well with rigid "traditional" gender roles.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Am I alone in thinking that men who spend time with their children are really appealing and rather sexy? (providing that it's my man and not someone else's though.) I don't like most aspects of traditional masculinity. It makes me brisle in annoyance for the most part. I think I am a minority in my idea of appealing men...
I dunno. Charles Coleman Finlay recently blogged about he realized his at-home role was swinging toward the more traditionally female role (keeping house, making dinner for his wife), and several of the comments were by women telling him how sexy that was. (Though it may have been influenced by the fact that he's about as good-looking as scifi/fantasy writers get - which may or may not be saying much, depending on your point of view... Just keep digging this hole, shall I? *facepalm*)
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
This reminded me of this story from the first issue of IGMS by Dave Wolverton. Fantastic story, if you haven't read it.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)