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Originally posted by Icarus:
I'm not talking about how to write it at all. I'm talking about how to read the number aloud.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: Many people would read the number 115 as "one hundred and fifteen." Technically, that ought to be "one hundred fifteen."

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Originally posted by dkw:
I was also taught (in math class, not English class) that "and" is how you pronounce a decimal point. And that using it between other digits is wrong.

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Originally posted by MEC:
Oh, I think I see it now, but wouldn't the third number be e-lev-en?

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Originally posted by MEC:
Oh, I think I see it now, but wouldn't the third number be e-lev-en?

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
In my math class the teacher specifically just made it a point to mark our answers incorrect if we use the word, "and" between digits unless talking about a following fraction or decimal. We are supposed to use hyphens.

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Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
I guess I'm retarded. I can't see why eleven should be a more valid answer than seventeen. Unless it just sounds better.

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Unless you want there to be a very large number of possible answers, the series would seem to be defined this way:

"The nth number in the series is the first whole number, counting from zero, with n syllables."

Eleven comes before 17.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Oh, thank you.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

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Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
"How were you writing numbers out as words in a math class?"

Didn't you ever have to do that?

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I'm 44. If I did, I have no memory of it. Not to mention the fact that when it came to school, I either didn't do or didn't remember anything that struck me as dumb busy-work.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
"Not to mention the fact that when it came to school, I either didn't do or didn't remember anything that struck me as dumb busy-work."

I didn't do it, but I remember not doing it.

edit: I learned it before debit cards were common. Maybe they were concerned about our check-writing skills.
 

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Posted by rollainm (Member # 8318) on :
 
"Not to mention the fact that when it came to school, I either didn't do or didn't remember anything that struck me as dumb busy-work."

This was my problem as well - in high school anyway. I'm kicking myself now, of course. I was being just as ignorant as The Followers.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
In French, the first five numbers might be:
1, 0, 21, 41, 141
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I'm not kicking myself at all. A good chunk of school was a total waste.

My daughter goes to a private school where kids are taught basically on their own level. She's in 2nd grade, and in this school, they mix classes, so that 1st and 2nd are together, 3rd and 4th are together, 5th and 6th are together, and 7th and 8th are together. Not for reasons of size; there are two 1st/2nd grade classes this year.

One of the effects of this mixing is that kids mentor other kids, because you're always a year older or a year younger than about half the class. Another is that no one expects everyone in the class to be doing the same thing. They have some basic things that everyone does, but for the most part, it's individualized.

The other day, we were talking to my sister in law. My nephew is freakishly smart, and we happened to see some of his schoolwork, which was normal 1st grade stuff. Havah asked my sister in law if my nephew wasn't bored out of his mind. Tova got confused and asked, "Why would he be bored?" It simply doesn't occur to her that a school might force people to do work that's clearly beneath them. That's no challenge, and teaches nothing.

But "no challenge and teaches nothing" is like a staple of most schools. Certainly the ones I went to.

My senior year in high school, I was taking Hebrew (required every year, since it was a Jewish school). About 80% or more of the homework was writing out conjugations. Gag me.

One day, the teacher, Mrs. Bass, told me to stay after the bell had rung. She said, "You are getting A's on all the tests. But I can't give you an A in the class, because you aren't turning in any homework."

It was my senior year, so I did what I'd been wanting to do for years. I said, "Look, Mrs. Bass, I understand that you have to teach to the lowest common denominator. But you know that I know the material, and I know that I know the material, and I'm simply not going to waste my time with busy work. If you have to give me a B, give me a B."

I did my best to say it earnestly, and not smarmily, which may account for the fact that I wound up with an A- in the class, but if I'm kicking myself at all, it's for not having had the guts to do that a lot earlier.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

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Originally posted by advice for robots:
In French, the first five numbers might be:
1, 0, 21, 41, 141

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
I guess I'm retarded. I can't see why eleven should be a more valid answer than seventeen. Unless it just sounds better.

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Unless you want there to be a very large number of possible answers, the series would seem to be defined this way:

"The nth number in the series is the first whole number, counting from zero, with n syllables."

Eleven comes before 17.

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Your teacher was a pedant. And I don't mean that in a good way (if there is a good way).

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Originally posted by kmbboots:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:

quote:

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Originally posted by PSI Teleport:
I guess I'm retarded. I can't see why eleven should be a more valid answer than seventeen. Unless it just sounds better.

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Unless you want there to be a very large number of possible answers, the series would seem to be defined this way:

"The nth number in the series is the first whole number, counting from zero, with n syllables."

Eleven comes before 17.

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Wouldn't sev-en make more sense than ze-ro?

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Originally posted by Lisa:
If I heard someone say "one hundred and forty two", the last thing I would ever think of is 100.42. I would first think of 142, and secondly of 100 + 42. But 100.42 is either "one hundred point 42" or "one hundred and forty two one hundredths".

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Originally posted by Jon Boy:
I've never seen that rule in a style guide.

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Note that in American English, it is non-standard to use the word and before tens and ones. It is instead used as a verbal delimiter when dealing with compound numbers. Thus, instead of "three hundred and seventy-three", Americans usually say (and write) "three hundred seventy-three". For details, see American and British English differences.

-- from Names of numbers in English

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When saying or writing out numbers, the British will typically insert an "and" before the tens and units, as in "one hundred and sixty-two" and "two thousand and three", whereas Americans will typically drop the "and" as in "two thousand three"; however, "two thousand and three" is also common. The same rule applies when saying numbers in their thousands or millions: "four hundred and thirteen thousand" would be said by a British speaker, "four hundred thirteen thousand" by an American speaker.

Some American schools teach students to pronounce decimally written fractions (".5") as though they were longhand fractions ("five tenths"), such as "five hundred thirteen and seven tenths" for 513.7 . This formality is often dropped in common speech. It is steadily disappearing in instruction in more advanced mathematics and science work as well as in international American schools. In the UK, 513.7 would generally be read "five hundred and thirteen point seven", although if it were written 513 7⁄10, it would still be pronounced "five hundred and thirteen and seven tenths").

-- from American and British English differences

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Originally posted by MEC:
Because Ze-ro is a neutral number, not negative or positive. All the other numbers are positive, making it much more sense to have it be sev-en.

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And because it is going in the same "direction".
Otherwise, "neg-a-tive one" would make as much sense as twen-ty-sev-en.

And, unless I am doing precise math, (which I never am) I always say "and". Maybe I'm British. More likely, I am just old.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I bet the "and" question would be a good one for The Straight Dope.

I'm trying to see if I can access the Chicago Manual of Style online (chapter 13 is [er, perhaps "was" -- prior edition ] all about numbers) or the APA Publication Manual.

[ October 15, 2007, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Wikipedia seems to agree, for what it's worth, although I can't tell what original reference was used by that author for that claim.

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Originally posted by Jon Boy:

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Wikipedia seems to agree, for what it's worth, although I can't tell what original reference was used by that author for that claim.

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No offense, but without any sources, I'd say it's not worth much.

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I already looked in Chicago and didn't find anything, but that was the fourteenth edition. I don't remember seeing it in the fifteenth edition either, though.

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Numbers

Q. In the admittedly rare circumstances when you want to write out the name of a large number, are there any agreed-upon guidelines for the usage of the word “and”? Is it “six hundred seventy-two” or “six hundred and seventy-two”? I was taught the former in grade school; a colleague was taught the latter, equally adamantly. I should note that said colleague is Canadian; is this perhaps a question of American versus British usage? All consulted manuals are, inexplicably, silent on the matter.

A. As paragraph 9.5 in the fifteenth edition of The Chicago Manual of Style suggests [emphasis added], using and is a matter of personal preference. For many people it is more idiomatic to say “one hundred and ten,” and, therefore, perhaps especially in less formal writing, it can be written that way as well. In some contexts, caution is advisable, however. Look at the following two expressions:

six hundred seventy-two

six hundred and seventy two

The latter expression could possibly be construed as two numbers: 600, on the one hand, and 72, on the other. But in the majority of contexts there would be no reason to worry.

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Number beginning a sentence. When a number begins a sentence, it is always spelled out. To avoid awkwardness, a sentence should be recast.

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One hundred and ten candidates were accepted. (And may be omitted.)
or
In all, 110 candidates were accepted.

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It goes on a bit longer, but it's not relevant. That Q&A was much more helpful. Thanks for digging that up. I wonder why they didn't include more of an explanation in the manual itself.

Oh, and I asked my Canadian coworker too, and she said that she'd never heard that you should always omit the "and." I wonder where exactly the rule came from.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I do not know. It is one of those things which I was taught as a child, at a time when I did not ask for primary sources (*grin), and I have never questioned it until now.

Of course, this may well have been an idiosyncrasm of that particular teacher. Who knows? I wish the Wikipedia article cited some kind of reference, even just "Mrs. Hodgkins, my fifth grade teacher." Perhaps I could have found an old classmate. ***

But it was satisfying to find at least something about it, even if this is not as conclusive as we might wish. I can tell you true that I won't be correcting anyone about it in the future, given that I scrambled for ages and scraped up piss and diddley (and "personal preference" at that).

-------------------------------------------

***It occurs to me that I should explicitly note that I did not author or correct these Wikipedia webpages, nor have I done so with any such pages. Although what an ingenious (albeit rather tenuous) set-up that could have been.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
I wish the Wikipedia article cited some kind of reference, even just "Mrs. Hodgkins, my fifth grade teacher."

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Ah, but where did she get it from? I suspect it's fifth-grade teachers all the way down.
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 

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Originally posted by dkw:
Aren't style guides about written style? I don't know why a style guide would have anything about how to pronounce "347".

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Whether "and" before tens and ones is right or wrong, I would reiterate that someone saying "one hundred and forty two" for 100.42 would not be understood by anyone, whether in the US or the UK or elsewhere.

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I daresay it would depend on context, as does most everything.

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[see the post above. See also my clinic, as if one of the staff verbally reported a temperature of "100 and 42," it would most certainly be understood as a digital thermometer having read "100.42 F"]
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I think that is why Icarus used the phrase "technically incorrect" rather than merely "incorrect" (rightly or wrongly). Hatrack is full of grammar and math geeks and nerds. Take it or leave it, that is not likely to change.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
You know, I didn't say anything about anything being unacceptable or wrong, or about taking points off of anybody. A question was posed about which how manyt syllables a number contained, and I provided a technical answer. I can provide you with any number of math textbooks for elementary and middle school students that indicate this pronunciation. Of course, they are published in the United States.

I have less than no interest in trading barbs with Lisa--she who started an entire thread on the topic of whether there should be one or two spaces after a period!--or Jon Boy on the subject.

For what it's worth, I would agree with the person who said seven should be the second number instead of zero. If we're not arbitrarily choosing to work with natural (i.e., "counting") numbers, then there is no logical place to start: perhaps the second number should be "one tenth" or the fourth should be "negative nine." Some sort of arbitrary starting point seems necessary, as well as an arbitrary decision on what kinds of numbers are eligible. The most natural one is the natural numbers, starting with one.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Whether "and" before tens and ones is right or wrong, I would reiterate that someone saying "one hundred and forty two" for 100.42 would not be understood by anyone, whether in the US or the UK or elsewhere.

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Whether "and" before tens and ones is right or wrong, I would reiterate that someone saying "one hundred and forty two" for 100.42 would not be understood by anyone, whether in the US or the UK or elsewhere.

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Originally posted by me, last page

IIRC, there may be a difference between the American usage of "and" and the British usage of "and" in spoken numbers. That is, I think the Brits may actually say (in their standardized numeric vocabulary) "one hundred and forty-two" for "142," whereas I (an American) was always taught that by US standard nomenclature, this would refer to "100.42" instead, with the "and" indicating the insertion of a decimal point.

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Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa:
Whether "and" before tens and ones is right or wrong, I would reiterate that someone saying "one hundred and forty two" for 100.42 would not be understood by anyone, whether in the US or the UK or elsewhere.

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I daresay it would depend on context, as does most everything.

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[see the post above. See also my clinic, as if one of the staff verbally reported a temperature of "100 and 42," it would most certainly be understood as a digital thermometer having read "100.42 F"]

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[Do we actually talk this way in transmitting numbers where I work? Yes [edited to add: when directly reading off a number, that is].

We also do not use certain abbreviations long considered standard, such as "u" for units or MSO4 for morphine.]---

Edited again to add: I can see it was a very poor example. I like dkw's examples (take your pick) much better!

[ October 15, 2007, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Huh. I didn't think I was trading barbs with anyone.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
You weren't, for which I am sure Ic is grateful, as he has stated he no desire to trade them wth you.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I would like to trade a few with Mrs. Hodgkins. I'm just sayin'.
 

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Posted by David G (Member # 8872) on :
 
Getting back to the puzzle originally presented, I struggled with the series and arrived at an entirely different pattern. I combined the first two numbers in the series as a single number ("1, 0" becomes "10"), added that number to the third number in the series (10+17), which then yielded the fourth number in the series (27).

Continuing with that pattern, the fifth number in the series is 44 (17+27), and the sixth number in the series is 1,771 (1727+44), etc.

I figured this pattern was all wrong when the ninth number in the series came to 18,160,801 -- which, by the way (in case anyone is interested), I pronounce "Eighteen million and one hundred and sixty and eight hundred and one."
 

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Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Heh. I'm inconsistent when it comes to "and". I would pronounce that number "Eighteen million, one hundred and sixty thousand, eight hundred and one."
 

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Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
 
The Klett readings for my cultures A and B were one hundred and forty. The Klett readings for my cultures A and B were one hundred forty.
With statement one, there is some ambiguity. Is A 100 and B 40 or are both 140? Writing it out I would of course put the number, but if I were giving a presentation, this would lead to confusion.
I found Lisa's thread on how many spaces after a period interesting. I told an English AP teacher and she had never heard of the debate and had been deducting points from students who did one period, so now she is rethinking that policy. So, that thread may have saved someone's grade.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I usually put the "and" in.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

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Originally posted by scholar:
She had never heard of the debate and had been deducting points from students who did one period.

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Originally posted by Lisa:

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Originally posted by BlackBlade:
In my math class the teacher specifically just made it a point to mark our answers incorrect if we use the word, "and" between digits unless talking about a following fraction or decimal. We are supposed to use hyphens.

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(a) How were you writing numbers out as words in a math class?

(b) Your teacher was a pedant. And I don't mean that in a good way (if there is a good way).

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