I first heard about this via Fox News and a couple of their commentators (not reporters). Then I was driving down the highway and saw a series of small "Burma-Shave" styled signs.
The idea was a direct reaction to the most recent School shootings. Some suggest that we allow teachers to bring guns into school. Others go so far as to say, "We have armed guards in banks, and all banks do is hold our money. Don't you think our schools are more important."
I think this will disappear as soon as an armed teacher goes crazy and starts shooting students. Its not like I've ever had a crazy teacher, or that any teacher has ever done anything unethical, immoral, or dangerous. I'm sure that no one here has ever had a teacher they wouldn't fully trust with a loaded weapon.
Now this Fox commentator has a great idea. Perhaps hiring armed guards for schools might be a good idea. Now if this narrator would have gone into some discussion on how we pay for this, raise taxes, cut teacher pay, or worse, drop football in order to pay for guards, that would have been constructive. Instead he jumps right to the idea of Teachers being Armed.
Now Teachers have a hundred jobs to do. They are counselors and dieticians, parents and nurses, child abuse experts and social engineers. Can we really ad
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:I think this will disappear as soon as an armed teacher goes crazy and starts shooting students.
Could be... How many of the student- or random stranger-gone-crazy people that we've heard about had legal concealed carry permits when they attacked?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:raise taxes, cut teacher pay, or worse, drop football in order to pay for guards (emphasis added)
The saddest part of your post is how true this sentiment is.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Which brings up the point of why we give permits for concealed weapons to these people.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
There has been at least one case and I'm sure more of a principal bringing a gun to school and shooting himself and teachers. It was in the 60s in Indiana. I'm sure there have been more.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Frankly I'd have to wonder at the value. How many school shootings are there a year? Maybe a half dozen on average? Now someone would suggest adding thousands, maybe millions of guns to classrooms? I'd be willing to bet those millions of guns would pose a greater risk and probably would kill more people, even through accidents, than those half dozen shootings would.
And there's a million issues that'd have to be worked out. I have to imagine that with all those guns, insurance rates for schools would skyrocket, as the risk of an accidental death increases. Teachers would have to undergo training and certification, and the teacher's union would have to be given legal assurances that if there was an accident, the teacher would be held blameless, otherwise none of them would touch a gun. The legalities alone I think would sink the issue.
If we're just talking about security guards, I don't see where the funding comes from first of all, and I think an outcry from parents would be another nail in the idea's coffin. Turning schools into armed camps doesn't breed much confidence or reassurance.
On the bright side, when Blackwater gets kicked out of Iraq, there'll be a few thousand unemployed mercs looking for work.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I'm not really for- or against teachers being allowed to be carry firearms in accordance with state or federal law that otherwise allows private citizens to carry firearms. I certainly wouldn't mandate it, which is what some of the "arm the teachers" rhetoric seems to imply.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
How about Samurai swords? Maybe some martial arts training, Every teacher has to have a black belt in several different forms and be able to disarm students without injury.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Bank & other security guards are trained specifically to protect people in the areas they work in. Teachers are trained to teach our kids. I wouldn't trust the average loan officer working in a bank to be armed, and I wouldn't trust the average teacher to be armed.
Some people with appropriate training could go armed in schools, but I'd rather not have the ability to effectively use a firearm (and the ability to judge the appropriateness of when to do so) be part of the selection criteria for teachers.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Some people with appropriate training could go armed in schools, but I'd rather not have the ability to effectively use a firearm (and the ability to judge the appropriateness of when to do so) be part of the selection criteria for teachers.
I don't think there is any serious advocacy for requiring teachers to carry firearms. Most of the real conflict is around whether teacher should be allowed to have their firearms with them at school if they are appropriately licensed to carry them in other settings. (i.e. should schools have greater firearms restrictions than other public property)
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
They day school teachers in America start carrying guns is the day I apply for Canadian citizenship.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I'm not sure I am waiting that long MC.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: I don't think there is any serious advocacy for requiring teachers to carry firearms. Most of the real conflict is around whether teacher should be allowed to have their firearms with them at school if they are appropriately licensed to carry them in other settings. (i.e. should schools have greater firearms restrictions than other public property)
Requiring, no - but if teachers are allowed to carry and use weapons in schools, I imagine there will be inevitable pressure on schools from community members to ensure some, if not all, the teachers are armed.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Requiring, no - but if teachers are allowed to carry and use weapons in schools, I imagine there will be inevitable pressure on schools from community members to ensure some, if not all, the teachers are armed.
You think? That's the first I've heard of that idea. Maybe they would, but again very few people are actually advocating that now so I don't know why the numbers would increase in that situation.
Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
The middle school I worked in had a police officer assigned to it, usually in the hallway and cafeteria. Yes, she was armed. I don't know if she was on the school district budget, or on the sherrif's office budget, but she was there.
When I was subbing, I'm pretty sure that every school I worked in at the middle school level or above had a police officer assigned there. That was in three school districts. I didn't always see a gun, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.
I would be pretty strongly against allowing teachers to be armed, but having an armed police officer never phased me. It's part of the job, and they're trained for it.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
Neither my middle school, nor my high school had armed cops. In fact, all my high school had was one guard whom pretty much no one ever saw and the worst he had was pepper spray.
Of course, I lived in San Jose which is considered "The safest big city in America".
Posted by TheBlueShadow (Member # 9718) on :
My middle school had an armed cop, my high school had two.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I must live in some backwards world because my bank doesn't have armed guards. But my high school did. And oddly, so did the movie theatre where I used to work.
Teachers are already overloaded and underpaid for all the training required of them...arming them and training them is just too much. And you couldn't just train them to use the weapon because it seems there'd have to be special training on how to handle and when to use a lethal weapon in a potentially deadly situation.
I think basic school security should be improved first and foremost. Maybe my high school was just weird but all entrances were monitored and there were only three points of entrance each morning and this is a school with more than 2000 students and three campuses with long connecting hallways. We weren't allowed to roam the halls during lunch and there was serious paperwork and IDing for every parent picking up their kid for a mid-day doctor's appointment. And this is a school repeatedly ranked in the top 10 nationally for football.
When I was in elementary school, we had "pizza man" drills where we rehearsed for a potential armed attack. We locked the doors, turned off the lights, and lined up against certain walls in a crouched position to make it less likely that we'd be hit by bullets.
Most of these practices and security measures aren't being taken in other schools. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's been my experiencing after watching my brothers move schools and talking with college classmates from around the country.
Why skip ahead to arming teachers when most schools can't even take the most basic steps to improve security?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I somehow don't think arming teachers is going to make our schools safer.
If a teacher is trained and has a carry permit, then I still don't think letting them keep that gun in the classroom is going to make things safer.
school shootings get a lot of publicity but they are very rare events. For the most part, our schools are very safe. I would venture that statistics would show us that kids are safer at school than in their own homes. I'm pretty certain more accidents and criminal violence happens to kids who are at home, statistically speaking, than kids who are at school.
Just because you have a conceal carry permit doesn't mean you automatically can carry that weapon anywhere. My husband has a conceal permit but doesn't have his gun on him while working as a firefighter. He doesn't take it with him into hospitals. There are certain public buildings that should be gun -free (except for law enforcement) and I think schools and hospitals belong on that list.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
The middle school I teach at has a county deputy assigned to it. The other two schools I worked at previously also had policemen and they were all armed. Not armed guards mind you; these were full-fledged cops.
The last school I worked at had a kid who brought a gun to school and was holding kids up in the cafeteria for their lunch money. The cop was informed by a student and he was so good that he took the kid down, cuffed him, and got him out of the cafeteria so quickly that even the teachers and administrators monitoring the area were not aware of the problem until later. The gun was real but turned out to be unloaded but this was still a potential disaster that was averted by the presence of the cop. I certainly felt safer on that campus with him there. (Incidently he and I were good friends and he told me later that if he had seen the kid pointing the gun rather than just being informed about it, he would have had to shoot the kid in the crowded cafeteria to protect the other students. It was standard procedure. The thought of almost having to shoot an unarmed kid brought the guy to tears)
I am a teacher and I think teachers having guns at school is a bad idea. I know teachers who would find having a weapon around hormonal pre-teens a little too tempting. Personally I am more tempted by their parents. Just saying.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There are certain public buildings that should be gun -free (except for law enforcement) and I think schools and hospitals belong on that list.
Would you mind elaborating why you think that certain buildings should be gun-free?
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
My high school had metal detectors and x-ray machines at the entrances. None of the guards carried guns, as far as I know. I sure hope they didn't, they didn't seem all that competent.
I could have gotten anything I wanted into the school with only a minor hassle. All the security was a joke. Made getting into the school in the morning worse than rush hour traffic, though.
You want kids to learn? Try not scaring the crap out of them. You want kids to not want to shoot up their schools? Try not making them go to an armed camp every day.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Why do we keep talking about "arming teachers" as if there is a proposed program to hand a sidearm to each new teacher at the same time they receive there teaching certificate?
The question is not "Should we arm teachers?" It's "Should public schools teachers who are licensed to carry a firearm be allowed to keep that firearm with them when they are on school property?"
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I am strongly against arming teachers and I can't believe anyone would seriously put that forward as an arguement. It's completely untenable and unnecessary.
quote:Just because you have a conceal carry permit doesn't mean you automatically can carry that weapon anywhere.
True. It varies from state to state where you can carry concealed. In Virginia, where I have a Concealed Handgun Permit, I cannot carry my gun onto school grounds, hospitals, or in most government buildings. I can, however, carry the gun in a locked box (your glove compartment counts as one) if I am passing through a school or hospital to pick someone up.
Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
Ok, it's strictly forbidden for a teacher to apply corporal punishment, but they *can* can shoot the kids.
Have I missed a couple of chapters of this narrative?
And before I get jumped on, I do realise that the arming of teachers is merely a proposal, but the double-think remains.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
The actual case I've seen in the news is a teacher who fears her ex-husband and wants to bring her handgun with her to the classroom. She has a concelaed weapons permit, a pretty good reason for it, and I have to say I lean in her favor.
I don't know that every frightened teacher needs to be able to bring a gun in case of zombie attacks or whatever, but I like a case-by-case rule so folks with credible threats can be armed. Even if the school has a resource officer (what we called our resident cop) he's not going to get there until after the ex does. By then, it could be too late.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I've had teachers that couldn't keep track of their textbooks while teaching from it.
With kids of today, if they somehow discover that their teacher is armed, their first thought will not be "oh no, let's be careful," but rather "hey, let's steal it, it'll be cool!"
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:I don't know that every frightened teacher needs to be able to bring a gun in case of zombie attacks or whatever, but I like a case-by-case rule so folks with credible threats can be armed.
Do you think the normal process of obtaining a concealed carry permit, with it's expense and hassle, is not a sufficient "case-by-case" filter?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I think it would be a horrible decision for a teacher to have to make (whether to have to shoot a kid or not). Since most of them are going to KNOW the kid in question with the gun.
I don't think I want to put any teacher in that position.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: The actual case I've seen in the news is a teacher who fears her ex-husband and wants to bring her handgun with her to the classroom. She has a concelaed weapons permit, a pretty good reason for it, and I have to say I lean in her favor.
Had she already tried going through the police and the school, and had they both declined to provide sufficient help?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I don't think I want to put any teacher in that position.
Of course, you wouldn't be putting anybody in that position unless you were coercing teachers to carry firearms.
Or are you saying that that position is so horrible that you want to make sure that nobody is allowed to be in it?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
About the only thing that concealed carry would do is make the teacher a more obvious target for mugging.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The only thing? I doubt that.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: About the only thing that concealed carry would do is make the teacher a more obvious target for mugging.
I don't follow. A person with a hidden gun is more likely to be mugged than a person with no gun?
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Frankly, I think that the idea of teachers having guns in a classroom is idiotic. If it were to happen, I'm willing to bet good money that the next school shooting you hear about will be perpetrated with a teacher's gun. I don't believe that armed teachers would deter a kid from shooting up a school. For the would-be mass murderer, it just provides an easy solution to the question of how to acquire a gun and get it into the school in the first place.
Furthermore, I think that very few teachers would be comfortable with the idea. It's not what anyone signed on for. Teachers aren't cops. If the worst should happen, I don't believe that the average teacher would be prepared to function as anything other than a terrified person holding a gun in a room full of kids.
If society ever decides that teachers should be armed, it should be with non-lethal weapons. Pepper spray, tasers, or batons, but not guns. And some self defense training couldn't hurt. But teachers with guns? No.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Speaking as a teacher, teachers bringing guns into the classroom is a horrible horrible idea. I wouldn't recommend it as something we should allow, much less promote or mandate.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that I was speaking as a teacher as well.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"A person with a hidden gun is more likely to be mugged than a person with no gun?"
Contrary to NRA propaganda, homes with guns are FAR more likely to be burglarized than homes without. Gun theft is the most reported felony: in cities like Phoenix, the majority of crimes against property involve gun theft. Steal a television, stereo, jewelry, etc, and the burglar would be extremely lucky to get a dime on the dollar. A stolen gun can be easily sold for noticeably more than the full retail price of a legal sale. In an age of credit&debit cards -- with chump change cash for only the most minor purchases -- which would a mugger choose: a wallet or a $500 pistol?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Contrary to NRA propaganda, homes with guns are FAR more likely to be burglarized than homes without.
That doesn't tell us much about causality. Perhaps people who live in areas with a lot of burglaries are more likely to own guns in the first place.
quote:In an age of credit&debit cards -- with chump change cash for only the most minor purchases -- which would a mugger choose: a wallet or a $500 pistol?
Oh. You're presuming the mugger knows you are carrying a gun. OK.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Matt, I don't know the first thing about how one gets a concealed permit. I'm saying I don't think fearing your students in general is a good reason to have a gun at school. Fearing a specific kid who's shown up at your house or stalked you, sure. But general worry, no.
eros, the article didn't get into that much detail. article I thought this quote I found elsewhere was interesting.
quote: Oregonians who have concealed weapon permits may carry a gun onto most public properties, including schools, without violating state law. School districts, however, commonly bar teachers from carrying guns to classrooms.
I think it's odd that other people can have a gun at school but she can't because she works there. That doesn't seem right.
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: There are certain public buildings that should be gun -free (except for law enforcement) and I think schools and hospitals belong on that list.
As ideal as it sounds to have "gun-free" zones, without metal detectors and other extreme security measures, there's no way to enforce them. In my experience, that means CDC in Atlanta, airports, national labs and courthouses. People in larger cities may know of other types of buildings with that kind of security.
In some areas, I'm sure that it's worthwhile to spend the money to enforce such zones in schools and hospitals, but just proclaiming that a facility is "gun-free" is completely useless.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:In some areas, I'm sure that it's worthwhile to spend the money to enforce such zones in schools and hospitals, but just proclaiming that a facility is "gun-free" is completely useless.
Oh I agree. Just proclaming it is not enough. Around here, courthouses and hospitals have metal detectors as well as some schools. If you do not enforce it then you cannot expect it to just happen because you want it to.
Schools should be safe zones. I hate the idea of metal detectors, but it may come to that eventually.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:"A person with a hidden gun is more likely to be mugged than a person with no gun?"
Contrary to NRA propaganda, homes with guns are FAR more likely to be burglarized than homes without.
This is like, the classic questionable cause argument right here.
Considering these three parallel facts:
- home intrusion rates increase in areas where gun availability drops or is banned,
- it is precisely due to higher burglary rates that the gun rate rises in response, and
- if you own firearms you are much less likely to die in the event of a violent home intrusion
and some other junk it's not actually a solid argument against guns or an argument against guns at all, just a side fact.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense... how would a burglar know which house has guns and which doesn't? Seems like that statistic is made up after the fact, and that one thing isn't a result of the other. Or is it simply that a burglar enters a home, finds a gun, and his act of taking it makes that statistic correct?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: That doesn't make a whole lot of sense... how would a burglar know which house has guns and which doesn't? Seems like that statistic is made up after the fact, and that one thing isn't a result of the other. Or is it simply that a burglar enters a home, finds a gun, and his act of taking it makes that statistic correct?
The only way it *might* make sense is if the burglers had prior knowledge that the gun existed, either through prior contact with their victim or surveillance of the home. Maybe you can buy the NRA subscriber list?
Otherwise, it's just one of those "scare" correlations, promoted to encourage people who have already made up their mind or who unable to critically evaluate the claim.
Posted by msquared (Member # 4484) on :
But it is statistics. Those can't lie.
msquared
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Belle, I asked you a question earlier, which I'm guessing you missed. I'd love it if you answered it. Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
quote: The only way it *might* make sense is if the burglers had prior knowledge that the gun existed, either through prior contact with their victim or surveillance of the home. Maybe you can buy the NRA subscriber list?
Or maybe burglars peek in windows looking for camo, gun safes, or deer heads mounted on the wall when deciding which houses to break into. Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
Or maybe gun owners and burglars tend to live in the same end of town.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Yeah! Fight fire with fire!
That always works right? That never gets out of control... right?
One thing that this country needs is more guns. As it is there is only one per person. What if you run out and can't reload? Why not carry more? Yeah!
(dripping, cloying, disgusted sarcasm)
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
mph, I believe there are certain places where the public's right to expect a certain level of safety out-rules a private person's right to carry a gun.
Hospitals and schools are some of those places. I should be able to visit a hospital emergency room without fear that someone will pull a gun and shoot someone next to me (or me). My kids should attend school without guns around, unless those guns are in the hands of law enforcement personnel.
I hate, hate the idea of metal detectors in school. My kids' schools don't have them - though they do have rules about transparent backpacks and let kids know that lockers, coats, purses, etc. can be searched so they do have some measures in place to try and prevent someone bringing a gun in . I'm not saying it couldn't happen, although we've never had any problems with weapons related violence and I certainly pray that continues. Unfortunately, though, there are some schools around here where weapons-related violence IS a problem and they do have armed guards and metal detectors. It's sad kids have to learn in that environment, but I'd rather those measures than not having them and kids are free to bring guns to school without being caught.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I believe there are certain places where the public's right to expect a certain level of safety out-rules a private person's right to carry a gun.
That makes sense. Thank you for your answer.
I guess that's the crux of the issue -- does removing that right make people safer or not?
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
I would say that, for the most part, no. In Belle's example, someone who entered a hospital with a gun with the intent to shoot someone really isn't going to care about whether or not he or she is violating the law.
I really have a hard time fathoming how high schools can need armed security guards and metal detectors and whatnot. Then again, I don't recall ever seeing any sort of violence at my high school. Ever.
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
I am completely against teachers carrying rifles and pistols to school. But, I am totally for teachers being allowed to arm themselves with blowguns, boomerangs, and maybe, just maybe, the little hand-sized crossbows if they were fitted with non-lethal projectiles.
Nothing to settle a classroom down like a boomerang to the side of the head now is there?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
A meter stick to the desk works just as well, I've found.
Posted by Pegasus (Member # 10464) on :
While carrying a firearm could possibly give a person more opportunity to defend themselves and possibly others, it would not make sense to assume an added level of safety just because you have a gun. Many more factors would have to be in place. I guess, in short(IMHO): bearing arms ≠ safety
I am generally for the right to bear arms, but this just seemed kinda obvious/common sense.
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