I ran across a blog that links to a story about how horrible education is for today's American students. The article's author concludes the United States is in danger because the next generation can't think properly to continue as a democracy.
Knowing the relative age here, I thought it would be of interest.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, it's certainly not a news story. It seems to me the guy is just like many others, harping on how stupid or ignorant his fellow citizens are (while excepting himself, of course).
The truth is, it's not an American thing. If that guy strapped on a jetpack and flew to any city or community on Earth and picked five schlubbos at random, chances are they would dramatically fail to measure up to his vaunted standards.
Chances are he'd need to, say, take his jetpack to one of them to be serviced, though.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Needs numbers, not anecdotes.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Isn't this story one generation old?
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
Numbers would be nice, but how can one objectively measure one generation's average intelligence against that of another? I do not believe people are getting dumber, it's just that there is a decrease in the need to apply yourself. Over here, we have had one or two major reforms in the style of teaching. Now we are starting to notice that this produces pupils who are very skilled at producing nice and colourful reports on any topic, but since they gather their information straight form the internet, they have little understanding of the subject they wrote about. One of the worst examples of general ignorance that I've heard is the fact that a vast majority of the children doesn't know that milk comes from a cow (most often, that is). They think it just comes in cartons. But at the same time these children have no trouble memorizing all the names of the 300+ different Pokémon. Go figure...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think this thread title would be just as accurate without the first word.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
That was the first Onion article I ever read, way back when...
Ahhhhh...good times.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
In all seriousness, I suspect that the current generation of children would crush most previous generations in almost every modern academic subject if you could go back in time to test them against one another. After all, there have been generations in the past where most kids couldn't even read and didn't go to school - yet American democracy survived and thrived.
I'm sure there are certain subjects where the modern generation would fail miserably in comparison to older generations, but those would be mostly areas that aren't as important to modern life as they were in the past. I bet the average kid would do poorly in their knowledge of farming, for instance, whereas I'd bet kids of the 1800's might get high marks in that category.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Eduardo St. Elmo: One of the worst examples of general ignorance that I've heard is the fact that a vast majority of the children doesn't know that milk comes from a cow
Why would they? I'm asking seriously -- most "city kids" have probably never been near a farm and I've certainly never seen "where foods come from" in a curriculum. It's one of those things that was obvious in the past and never needed to be taught, but isn't obvious any longer. It's not a mark of the kids being stupid if they don't know something that they have had no reason or opportunity to learn.
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Right. There is a difference between "stupid" and "has a different body of knowledge." They are not equal.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Aren't there common depictions of farm life in childrens' books?
Posted by Javert Hugo (Member # 3980) on :
Depends on the books, doesn't it?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
And "This is a cow" doesn't always translate to "This is where milk comes from."
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Do you remember everything you read in children's books, MEC? I can't recall reading about dairy farmers in any children's books.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
So far in my son's books we've encountered a lot about farm animals and the sounds they make, but nothing about milk or eggs (or bacon or beef, for that matter).
As the kids get older I'm sure that will show up in some books (I know it's it the Little House on the Praire books, for example) but there also will be more choices for books and not everyone reads the same ones.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
There's a freaking cow on our milk cartons. There's not much that can go wrong, unless they're confusing ground beef with milk, which would be entertaining... Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
I am responsible for putting in reading scores from a Standardized test called DRP. We use this information (that students take at the beginning of the year) to place our lowest performing students in our Read180 program.
*side note: Our average students on Read180 raise their proficiency level by at least two grades, and many raise their level to 8th grade or beyond. We know this because of the Read180 tracking and the end of year DRP test we give.*
Our school is considered one of the best performing schools in our district. Our district is a good district compared to the state.
50% of our current crop of 8th graders read at or below 4th grade reading comprehension with 90% understanding.
Last year only 33 percent were at or below 4th grade level. Maybe this year is just an anomaly, but I still think 33% is phenomenally bad.
I have noticed over the last three years more and more students are getting the high scores. We have close to 8 kids with near perfect scores and many reading at high school and college levels.
There are still many students reading at grade level, but I am astounded by how many are advanced readers and discouraged by the vast numbers that are far below their potential.
It is as if the smart are getting smarter and the poor performing are filling up the base. Of course 2 or 4 years is hardly enough time to see a trend, and I am only looking at one school.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
My parents, for what it's worth, think that school has gotten significantly harder these days. Kids may not be brighter, but they're being challenged more.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: There's a freaking cow on our milk cartons.
And there's a tucan on your box of Fruit Loops.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
And don't even get me started on animal crackers. Talk about confusing.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, no, those are actually made out of the animals depicted. Although there was a scandal a few years back--Nabisco was using elephant meat in their tiger crackers. There was a massive recall.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
That's "Dumber than Dirt...and Proud of It", Mr.SmartyPants.
Interesting that "Dumber than Dirt" GoogleAds up CoastalDreams, an online video series about whose* the biggest boob.
* Yep, deliberate.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I'm pretty sure my mom teaches a book called "Where Food Comes From." She also teaches the chicken or egg book, and several other farm books. They also take all of the kids in our school system to a farm, that has added animals for that day, beyond it's normal working hay and beef.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Didn't everyone go to a "show farm" some time between kindergarten and third grade? (We did it every year.) It's pretty standard around here... I think it's part of the social studies and science curricula, and they tie it in to language and math too.
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
Okay, I'll admit that the example of the cow isn't very good. I'm not saying that this is something everyone should know. What I really wanted to point out is the fact that most kids these don't seem to want to know these things. To the city kids (and even the country lads and lasses) the origin of dairy products may not be very relevant, but I'd like to see children taking an interest in the underlying principles that provide all the luxury items that consume so much of their attention.
As a child you should view the world with a sense of wonder (yeah, I know it's a cliché...), which to me means that one should actually wonder "why...." or "how..." and try to find the answers yourself. Mental Adventure and exploration and such... In stead, these days more and more children seem to perform only the tasks they are given, and preferably with results that'll just barely get you a passing grade. (not that I haven't been quilty of exactly this behaviour once or twice) In this sense I tend to agree with one of the statements from the article in the OP: "the more a student is tested the less they are able to learn." There is a (subtle) difference between studying to pass a test and studying because you want to actually understand a subject.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Didn't everyone go to a "show farm" some time between kindergarten and third grade? (We did it every year.)
Nope.
Of course, I grew up in the Texas Panhandle where there aren't any such farms, due to lack of water.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I didn't either, and we actually have cattle ranchers near where I grew up.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:There is a (subtle) difference between studying to pass a test and studying because you want to actually understand a subject.
It's not that subtle.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
That has a lot to do with what goes in the home (or the place they spend their time when they're not at home) BEFORE school age. We have a child care crisis in this country, and one of the results is an awful lot of kids being placed in bad daycares that don't really support the kind of question and answer/exploration that is essential to developing a love of learning.
But more than that, I think your sample is biased. There are many kids who DO want to know, want to learn, want to understand. And there are teachers, classrooms, schools that encourage that. Look at the kids of Hatrack. Look at the teachers of Hatrack. I think people underestimate kids a lot sometimes. Kids still have the capacity to learn-- it just depends on the opportunity they are given, not only at school, but at home as well.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I think the education system needs to be restructured, but i doubt this will happen anytime soon.
Also, dyscalculia does NOT make a person dumb. I am beastly at math, terrible at making calculations in my head, but this really doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Noemon: Touche. Although my mind is curious as to what conjectures, given a kid that hasn't figured out where milk comes from, what that kid would guess as to the origin of Fruit Loops or Animal Crackers.
Actually, maybe I'm more curious about milk in the first place. Surely they don't think its still freshly squeezed from their ... initial source of milk? Or do they think its more of a mixture from interested parties?
Or do they just drink it without thinking about where it comes from, which would be bizarre. Or maybe thats a bizarre idea just because I grew up in a Cantonese family and eating random food from dim sum carts without finding out what its made out of is a very very bad idea Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
OK, first of all it's not an 'article'. At least, not a news article. It's just some guy ranting about how stupid kids these days are (and indirectly discussing how smart he is).
Second, learning for its own sake? Not really a very big deal. All of the learning in the world never accomplished squat. Better an ignorant mechanic than a wise diletante.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Didn't everyone go to a "show farm" some time between kindergarten and third grade? (We did it every year.) It's pretty standard around here... I think it's part of the social studies and science curricula, and they tie it in to language and math too.
Nope. We had lots of field trips -- to the State Capitol building, to the symphony, to the science museum -- but no farms.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Our show farm started when you would have been in college DKW (I'm pretty sure the person who organizes it is your age) which also made it too late for me to go, though our class went to a few farms they weren't set up for that purpose. The farm I am talking about has over 100 people between 12 and 90 on the two days of the festival. About two thousand kids go through. In the past I've always helped with horses, dogs, or wagon rides but this year I think I'm going to take my loom and a spinning wheel to show the kids.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I kind of think that article is pure bunk, but what's wrong with learning for the sake of learning? What's it to you if a person wants to learn Latin or Ancient Russian or Aramaic or some sort of weird random form of astrophysics? If it gives them enjoyment then it's accomplishing something.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, also, Mister Rogers went to all kinds of places and found out where things came from, how milk is processed, how yogurt is made, how mushrooms and beets and apples are grown and harvested, etc. That may be the source of my earliest information on where food comes from, I'm not quite sure; I don't think I ever remember learning that...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: OK, first of all it's not an 'article'. At least, not a news article. It's just some guy ranting about how stupid kids these days are (and indirectly discussing how smart he is).
Second, learning for its own sake? Not really a very big deal. All of the learning in the world never accomplished squat. Better an ignorant mechanic than a wise dilettantes.
I think it is very important for a mechanic to be knowledgable. Ignorance could get people killed. Diletantes, in my experience, are very seldom wise.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I think it is very important for a mechanic to be knowledgable. Ignorance could get people killed. Diletantes, in my experience, are very seldom wise.
How many mechanics do you know, kmbboots? Of the five I've worked with for the past few years, all of them are what I (nerd) would call very ignorant, at least outside their own field and interests.
But when my car starts making a clunky noise, I don't dig deep in my head to fix it, I give one of them a call. If they're having some sort of computer trouble, they call me.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:I think it is very important for a mechanic to be knowledgable. Ignorance could get people killed. Diletantes, in my experience, are very seldom wise.
How many mechanics do you know, kmbboots? Of the five I've worked with for the past few years, all of them are what I (nerd) would call very ignorant, at least outside their own field and interests. But when my car starts making a clunky noise, I don't dig deep in my head to fix it, I give one of them a call. If they're having some sort of computer trouble, they call me.
People are generally, to some degree, ignorant outside of our fields of interest. You, by your description, are ignorant of how to fix your car. You mechanic, I hope, is knowledgeable enough that your brakes don't fail.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, that's precisely the point I was making and why I get so irritated when people go on about how stupid the 'common' man is.
But anyway, the mechanic can still be very ignorant and yet be a great and safe mechanic:) I thought that was a given.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Everyone knows where milk comes from.
The Refrigerator.
or The Ice Box if your parents talk ancient.
or
The Store
or
If you are lucky enough to get it delivered, "That funny man who comes by every-day. Mommy asked me to call him Uncle Irv, and not tell daddy how he helps her clean the big bedroom every week or so, after sending me to the store for candy."
Its only vitally important to know where your milk comes from when you go out to milk the Bull.
Seriously, with the nervous nature of the generic parent when it comes to death and sex, having a class that discusses where Milk, Eggs, and Bacon come from might get banned.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Well, that's precisely the point I was making and why I get so irritated when people go on about how stupid the 'common' man is.
But anyway, the mechanic can still be very ignorant and yet be a great and safe mechanic:) I thought that was a given.
I think perhaps you are conflating "ignorant" with "uncultered" or "stupid". Ignorant simply means that someone has no knowledge or experience about something. When you are using the word "ignorant" it is helpful to know ignorant of what. A good mechanic would not be ignorant of how a car works or how to fix it. He may be ignorant of, say, genetics or Russian literature.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:People are generally, to some degree, ignorant outside of our fields of interest. You, by your description, are ignorant of how to fix your car. You mechanic, I hope, is knowledgeable enough that your brakes don't fail.
Here's the thing: Mechanics have other roles that may be even more important than their jobs as mechanics. They are parents, friends, citizens, and just human beings in general. Each of those roles requies it's own sorts of expertise - and that is the sort of expertise we are responsible for teaching kids in school. We need to make sure that just as the mechanic won't mess up someone's brakes, the parent won't mess up their kids, or the citizen won't vote somebody crazy into office, etc. Learning the value of learning is one element of that.
Having said that, I suspect there is a lot we expect kids to learn in school that they probably won't need for any role they will ever take on in life.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
'Ignorant' is a word with many definitions.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My mechanic had a degree in engineering in Iran, but when he came to America (fleeing political danger) found he could make more money fixing cars, which he loves doing anyway. He talks wine with my dad, religion with me and my husband, rocket science with his clients from JPL.
He's a very cool guy.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: 'Ignorant' is a word with many definitions.
I am only familiar with the one. And the Concise Oxford only gives one - lacking in knowledge, uninformed, acting in a uncouth manner through lack of knowledge.
What definition are you using? If it is a slang or colloquial usage, I am ignorant of it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I wonder if the educational establishment might tweak the results to make it seem like they need more money.
I mean, I know they always need more money. I just wonder to what lengths they might go to get it.
Re: Daycare. My daughter has been taught to spell the colors of the rainbow aloud, but can't read them. It's kind of surreal.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
quote:
quote:'Ignorant' is a word with many definitions.
...Oxford only gives one - lacking in knowledge, uninformed, acting in a uncouth manner through lack of knowledge. What definition are you using?
Ah, but there is the rub. If'n ya tell folks that they're ignorant (on a topic)... ...they almost always assume that you are calling them stupid (in general).
[ October 29, 2007, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: So far in my son's books we've encountered a lot about farm animals and the sounds they make, but nothing about milk or eggs (or bacon or beef, for that matter).
The Little Golden Book The Jolly Barnyard has all of the farm animals deciding what to give the farmer for his birthday. The hen says she'll give him eggs, the cow says milk, the turkey says he'll grace the Thanksgiving table as well as he's able.
--Mel
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre:
quote:
quote:'Ignorant' is a word with many definitions.
...Oxford only gives one - lacking in knowledge, uninformed, acting in a uncouth manner through lack of knowledge. What definition are you using?
Ah, but there is the rub. If'n ya tell folks that they're ignorant (on a topic)... ...they almost always assume that you are calling them stupid (in general).
That, I think, is a problem with using the term imprecisely. Particularly in this day of increasing specialization, we are all ignorant of a lot of things.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: the turkey says he'll grace the Thanksgiving table as well as he's able.
Now that's a little disturbing. Kind of like the cow in The Restaraunt at the End of the Universe Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Or like the pudding in Alice in Wonderland.
edited to add: Or was that mutton in Through the Looking Glass?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Some of us appear to be ignorant of the definition of 'ignorant'. Which makes me extremely happy.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Because you enjoy irony?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Do I ever.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
How many of us know when to plant and reap a harvest, or how to skin and tan a hide, or how to carve a long bow, or how to spin wool into thread? These were common skills hundreds of years ago, and almost nobody knows how to do them today. Clearly we're all fools!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I can do all of that, cause I gots me da Internet, and I's watches Dirty Jobs on the Discovery Channel.
I mean, if it wasn't for the Discovery Channel, how would farmers know when to plant crops?
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Most affluent parents in America — and many more who aren't — now put their kids in private schools from day one...
Saw it coming...
--j_k
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Kinda like how a bacon&egg breakfast demonstrates the difference between involvement and commitment. The chicken is involved, and the pig is committed.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Dan_raven - I admire your pluck, but I'm not sure that watching someone skin and tan a hide on TV or the internet makes you qualified to make yourself a buckskin jacket for winter survival Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Buckskin is not what you want for winter survival.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
See, that's what I'm talking about! Give me gortex and a mummy bag. I'm only good with modern knowledge.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
quote: How many of us know when to plant and reap a harvest, or how to skin and tan a hide, or how to carve a long bow, or how to spin wool into thread? These were common skills hundreds of years ago, and almost nobody knows how to do them today. Clearly we're all fools!
I know how to reap a harvest and spin wool into thread, I have no desire to hunt or skin a hide.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I am actually interested in all of those things. Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I figured you were Porter. I also know we are not the only ones on hatrack interested in that stuff. DKW, BannaOJ, and Stray all spin much better than I do. Crowswife, Beverly, and Porter are starting farms.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Correction: dkw perhaps used to spin better than you do. I haven't touched my wheel in years, I'm not sure I could make a length of yarn now if I tried.
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Hey dkw, a while back on Sake you mentioned giving me your wheel for foster care after I moved to the Twin Cities? Yeah, that's gonna have to wait until I get my own place, right now I don't even have room to unpack all the stuff I brought with me, and there's really not much of that. But I'd still like to do that eventually, if you still want to Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Humans: Dumber than dirt
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I'd foster it, but I never see you and they're hard to ship, so yes Stray much better choice.
And DKW, I'm still fairly sure you spin better than I do, though I haven't tried much at all.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
Y'all have such a low opinion of dirt...
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: the turkey says he'll grace the Thanksgiving table as well as he's able.
Now that's a little disturbing. Kind of like the cow in The Restaraunt at the End of the Universe
Yeah. Some of the rhymes in the book are pretty tortured, too.
quote:"Quack! He can have duck eggs, said the duck. "And I'll swim on his pond," said the drake, "for luck."
I cringe every time I have to read that book.
--Mel
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I used to spin and weave before I became allergic to almost every animal fiber known to man.
I have participated in tanning a hide.
I've planted and harvested crops (albeit, in CA. Very mild weather much of the year, only some plants actually have sensitive growing seasons where I live.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I have some rabbit skins in my freezer that I'm wanting to tan. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody sells alum anymore (well, in sizes larger than a few ounces), so I need to figure out some other method.
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
I've never done it with alum before. I've always gotten my "chemicals" from taxidermist suppliers.
Tandy Leather also sells chemicals for tanning furs.
--Mel
Posted by David G (Member # 8872) on :
A bit off topic, but has anyone seen the movie Idiocracy, an SF comedy about how incredibly dumb the human race eventually becomes 500 years in the future? The premise is that over 500 years stupid people have outbred intelligent people. The main character played by Luke Wilson travels to the future and finds himself to be the smartest man on earth... by a lot.
It's a dumb movie. But kinda funny, nonetheless.
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: Y'all have such a low opinion of dirt...
My thoughts exactly. Posted by anti_maven (Member # 9789) on :
I don't think this comment is fair by picking on US kids - I think kids in general are dumb as dirt. I know I was.
To add to the mix, here is a quote from Heinlein which is pretty on the money:
quote: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
Not that my battle plannig skills have ever been called upon (I wish I could say the same about daipers ).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Specialization is for agriculture-based civilization. Non-specialization is for hunter-gatherer societies.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Also, dyscalculia does NOT make a person dumb. I am beastly at math, terrible at making calculations in my head, but this really doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Sorry, but it does, in the sense that stupidity means an inability to solve problems. There is a class of problems you cannot solve; therefore, in that particular area, you are stupid. What you presumably meant was that this does not imply stupidity in other areas, a rather different concept.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
KQ, the spinning writer for www.knitty.com is allergic to animal fibers and uses silk, soy, and cotton almost exclusively (she may use bamboo and corn fibers occasionally).
Almost all of my weavings are done with cotton or rayon.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Au contraire, King of Men, KipThorne's CalTech class could manipulate the equations but never noticed the wormhole behind them. Stupidity is assuming "What I do well is proof of intelligence." then leaping to the conclusion that those who are less adept at that particular task are less intelligent.
[ October 30, 2007, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Starsnuffer (Member # 8116) on :
I generally find this pattern of commentary, of self-degrading statements about how "stupid" we are and about how all our children are hopeless, and every other country is both morally and intellectually more advanced compared to Americans who are all glued to their televisions and concerned about the latest celebrity scandal just irritates me. For some reason people take pleasure in saying haha yeah look how dumb we are. I do not deny that there are people who are ridiculously naive and ignorant about simple things, and I will not attempt to say things about the population at large, as I am thinking now and recalling countless instances of insufferable ignorance.... But my family, myself, and my friends are quite intelligent, on the whole. I think my annoyance lies in those who say "oh, yeah, America's full of nothing but dummies," without providing a statistic for their assertion.
Such as this:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Humans: Dumber than dirt
Sigh... maybe I'm just a wishful thinker. And also:
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: [QUOTE] Ah, but there is the rub. If'n ya tell folks that they're ignorant (on a topic)... ...they almost always assume that you are calling them stupid (in general).
That assumption is because they truly are ignorant. (sighs at people like that)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: KQ, the spinning writer for www.knitty.com is allergic to animal fibers and uses silk, soy, and cotton almost exclusively (she may use bamboo and corn fibers occasionally).
Almost all of my weavings are done with cotton or rayon.
That's very cool.
Unfortunately, I wasn't using my equipment, but sharing a friend's, and she raises rabbits (which is what I am MOST allergic to.)
I can't go over to her house at all anymore. Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Aww yeah. Well you can still think about it in the future. I can't use angora rabbit, which is usually what most spinners who say rabbit mean. I have little to no problem with many types of wool (merino is amazing).
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Also, dyscalculia does NOT make a person dumb. I am beastly at math, terrible at making calculations in my head, but this really doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Sorry, but it does, in the sense that stupidity means an inability to solve problems. There is a class of problems you cannot solve; therefore, in that particular area, you are stupid. What you presumably meant was that this does not imply stupidity in other areas, a rather different concept.
I find it amusing that you posted this moments after a discussion of what "ignorance" means, because I think that's the word you're looking for, KoM.
In fact, what she meant was what she said: Inability to do math does not mean she's stupid. This is true. In the same way that the inability to do all the archaic (but once necessary) activities detailed earlier does not mean one is stupid. There is no need to add "in other areas". Any reasonable person should get that from context.
You might have a leg to stand on if she'd said "My inability to do math does not mean I'm stupid at math." But she didn't say that. And, unless the word "stupid" is used wildly different where you are, it's absurd to assume that's what she meant. "Stupid" is usually used as a more general indicator of intelligence, and looking at her post... Lo! That's the way she used it!
PS: I'm fairly certain Synesthesia is female, but if I'm wrong, let me know so I can edit out this PS and turn those all those she's into he's.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Syn is female
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:Originally posted by Eduardo St. Elmo: One of the worst examples of general ignorance that I've heard is the fact that a vast majority of the children doesn't know that milk comes from a cow
Why would they? I'm asking seriously -- most "city kids" have probably never been near a farm and I've certainly never seen "where foods come from" in a curriculum. It's one of those things that was obvious in the past and never needed to be taught, but isn't obvious any longer. It's not a mark of the kids being stupid if they don't know something that they have had no reason or opportunity to learn.
So, in honor of this post, I asked my <almost> 4-year-old daughter this morning where milk comes from.
"Cows" she said without hesitation.
"Who taught you that?" I asked, wondering if maybe it was her grandparents who live in a rural community. "Was it mom, or grandpa or me?"
"It was everyone, Dad," she said.
"Well what about eggs. Where do they come from?"
"From hens!"
"That's right."
Then I proceeded to tell her how many different animals make milk for their babies (she thought the idea of elephants making milk was very funny). I wonder how accurate the assertion that "a vast majority of children don't know that milk comes from a cow" really is. Not to generalize from one child, but somehow the message got through to her pretty loud and clear.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Also, dyscalculia does NOT make a person dumb. I am beastly at math, terrible at making calculations in my head, but this really doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Sorry, but it does, in the sense that stupidity means an inability to solve problems. There is a class of problems you cannot solve; therefore, in that particular area, you are stupid. What you presumably meant was that this does not imply stupidity in other areas, a rather different concept.
I find it amusing that you posted this moments after a discussion of what "ignorance" means, because I think that's the word you're looking for, KoM.
I don't think it is. Syn is clearly not ignorant of mathematics: She's had the training and read the books. She just can't do it.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
SenojRetep, I asked my three year old where milk comes from, and she said (pointing at her chest), "Um, your tummy?"
"Whose tummy?"
"Mommy's!"
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Sometimes I feel stupid.
Mr. Observant: Kids are stupid. Mr. Obvious: Could that be because they have not had time to learn everything you have had time to learn? Mr. Observant: No. They just spend too much time doing things that make them stupid. Mr. Obvious: You can learn from doing just about anything, although what you learn may not have tremendous value. Learning the proper sequence to save the world from alien conquest may not have any value unless the world is invaded by aliens in such a way that the skills you've learned on your Wii could.... Mr. Observant: No. You don't understand. Most kids today don't even know that Milk comes from Cows. Mr. Obvious: That's not true... Mr. Observant: Yes it is. I've seen the statistics. Do you think I'd make something like this up. Mr. Obvious: Probably, but what I mean is that the statement "Milk comes from cows" is false.
Mr. Observant: ....huh... Mr. Obvious: Milk comes from Mammary Glands in any female Mammal in good health who happens to be lactating. As such, the statement that "Milk comes from Cows" implying that all Milk comes from only Cows is wrong. Besides "Mother's Milk" from which most of us have had a taste or two as children, many people grow up only knowing Goats Milk, or Yak's Milk. There are many other milks out there besides your own narrow definition of Milk. In deed, by having such of narrow definition you are displaying your ignorance, and possibly Stupidity, not theirs.
Now why didn't I think of that before?
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Also, dyscalculia does NOT make a person dumb. I am beastly at math, terrible at making calculations in my head, but this really doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Sorry, but it does, in the sense that stupidity means an inability to solve problems. There is a class of problems you cannot solve; therefore, in that particular area, you are stupid. What you presumably meant was that this does not imply stupidity in other areas, a rather different concept.
I find it amusing that you posted this moments after a discussion of what "ignorance" means, because I think that's the word you're looking for, KoM.
I don't think it is. Syn is clearly not ignorant of mathematics: She's had the training and read the books. She just can't do it.
You're probably right, and I concede that point. But I stand by everything else.
Posted by Threads (Member # 10863) on :
It's easy to look at kids in general and say that they're stupid, but it's hard to do any sort of comparison between kids of the current generation and kids of the previous generation. One potential counterpoint to the OP is that the college admissions process is a lot harder than it was forty years ago. I'm applying to around 10 colleges as are many of my classmates. For comparison, both of my parents only applied to four.
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